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« Brian Goodwin, 1931-2009 | Main | So, what is lunacy compatible with? Everything? »

Best Virgin Mary sighting yet

Category: Kooks • Religion • Weirdness
Posted on: July 18, 2009 8:33 AM, by PZ Myers

Oh, I believe! What else could this be?

It's the one on the left. The medium: bird poop on a pickup truck.

This is even better than Piss Christ!

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Comments

Posted by: Feynmaniac | July 18, 2009 8:47 AM

Bird shit should be the first thing you think of when you hear about these "sightings".

Posted by: 386sx | July 18, 2009 8:47 AM

Don't miss the commercial right before the video. A new Bono song that sounds a lot different from all the other Bono songs. No two Bono songs ever sound the same. Pretty amazing how he does that.

Posted by: atomjack | July 18, 2009 8:48 AM

Yeesh. Venerating birdshit...it, like, gives me chills, y'know?

Posted by: Circe | July 18, 2009 8:49 AM

Even before I followed the link I was all, "Gotta be Texas..." Imagine my lack of surprise.

Posted by: Corvus | July 18, 2009 8:51 AM

Is it just me, or do the vast majority of these Virgin Mary appearances look like vulvas?

Posted by: atomjack | July 18, 2009 8:53 AM

Yeesh. Venerating birdshit...it, like, gives me chills, y'know? They'd better wash that off before it eats a holy in the paint!

Posted by: Zeno | July 18, 2009 8:54 AM

It doesn't have to be Texas. My fellow Californians are also skilled at pareidolia. Remember Knothole Jesus?

Posted by: Feynmaniac | July 18, 2009 8:56 AM

"I think we're going to just put it on a shelf outside, probably take off the mirror and keep it there cause its something special to us. I'm not going to wash it off," says Cristal Pachuca.

[Source, bold mine]

Posted by: 386sx | July 18, 2009 9:02 AM

Bono sighting!! (The bird poop looks a lot like Bono except without the sunglasses.)

#10

Posted by: Brian English | July 18, 2009 9:06 AM

Famous last words? Is this a states thing? Pointing out that bird shit was some biblical character would a)get you a "jeez man, you're off your nut" if you're a stoner, b) "yeah, good joke knackers, now shut the fuck up" or c) "call the padded van, he's finally lost it." 'round these parts.

#11

Posted by: vulpes | July 18, 2009 9:08 AM

What's really strange to me: if I had deep religious feelings for the Virgin Mary I would be rather offended by someone imagine her picture in a piece of bird shit! I mean, Jesus' image on a tree - ok maybe. Mary image on a toast - already borderline. But Mary's picture in a bird shit?!? Come on that sounds more blasphemic than almost anything I heard people complaining about lately. Just imagine what deeply religious people would say if some atheist artist would compile a statue of the Virgin Mary out of dog poop and put it in a museum - I don't guess that would be as famous among people... ;-)

#12

Posted by: Andyo | July 18, 2009 9:10 AM

This has GOT to be a Poe, testing how far into the stupid realm a story can be for the media to report on it.

Oh, well, as long as they put a question mark after the headline, I guess that's all right.

#13

Posted by: Jon | July 18, 2009 9:12 AM

Anyone else seeing a vagina? No?

That'd be amazing- how many vaginas do you think bear a resemblance enough to the Virgin Mary? Sounds like something worth investigating.

Now, where would I find a grant for that kind of research..?

#14

Posted by: Sven DIMilo | July 18, 2009 9:12 AM

bird poop on a pickup truck

was it a ~~vulva~~ Volvo?

#15

Posted by: Crudely Wrott | July 18, 2009 9:15 AM

So inspired am I at the breathtaking art produced by a mere bird that I think I shall catch a few and squeeze them. I expect to produce portraits of my late father, a girl I used to date and Joe Pesci. Also landscapes populated by extinct pygmies and dwarfs.

OK. Step one: find a shaker of salt . . .

#16

Posted by: 386sx | July 18, 2009 9:17 AM

http://www.kwtx.com/offbeatnews/headlines/50946582.html

"The Pachuca's say the image is more than a coincidence especially since it happened on the 12th.

"The family says in Mexico, Dec. 12 is celebrated as the day of The Virgin Guadalupe."

Ahhaa, sounds like some good old Catholic theology at work there if I'm not mistaken.

#17

Posted by: Beige | July 18, 2009 9:20 AM

Sheeh, I'm not sure why everyone is being so negative about this. It's only reasonable that God reaches out to those people with scatological fetishes too, after all, he loves everyone equally no matter what their tastes might be.

#18

Posted by: inkadu | July 18, 2009 9:26 AM

I think a lot of Mary's iconography is supposed to look a bit like a vagina, whether consciously or no. I wonder if that means we can start calling her "Clit Head."

I haven't trolled through the Mitchell and Webb thread, but the following video link seems especially apropos here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1-bbz3crjw&feature=related

#19

Posted by: Johnt | July 18, 2009 9:28 AM

I was taking a shit when I read this post. (yes, iPhones are good for that)
When I wad done, I was strangly compealed to look in the bowl...do you know who wad staring back at me?!
- Jesus? No.
- Virgin Mary? No.
- Mohommad? No.

It was corn. I had it for dinner yesterday.
Just be glad I didn't include photos...

#20

Posted by: Somnolent Aphid | July 18, 2009 9:28 AM

I want some of those drugs they're taking, cause that's some powerful stuff. Does anyone know, do you have to smoke it, or is it just in the water there?

#21

Posted by: bornagain77 | July 18, 2009 9:33 AM

Though I will not try to defend such a thing as a "Mary Sighting", there are many other evidences that point to God,,, Enough of which to even make someone as a "rational atheist" as you to take a serious pause. What if you are wrong in all this PZ??? Just what if it is true God did create the universe?

Hugh Ross - Dark Energy; Halos Of Exotic Dark Matter And Earth's Extremely Privileged Position - video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=280Mt0AdIjo

Surely such revelations would at least be disturbing to you as well. Or do you just pretend none of this matters by placating your unanchored hostility towards God with obfuscations of imagination which never address the scientific matter at hand in the first place?

#22

Posted by: Keenacat | July 18, 2009 9:33 AM

I saw the vulva too. Yikes. Bird poop. I'm totally awaiting Jesus in a dogs turd.

#23

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 18, 2009 9:33 AM

was it a ~~vulva~~ Volvo?

And if so, had it just been in for a ~~cervix~~ service ?

#24

Posted by: Duvenoy | July 18, 2009 9:35 AM

I've always thought that Piss Christ had a certain, haunting beauty about it; far better than what you might see in most church portraits.

Eh, bird crap, cheese sandwiches, oil stains, dirty windows - that little chippy certainly gets around, doesn't she?

doov

#25

Posted by: abys | July 18, 2009 9:35 AM

Not to be one to point out the painfully obvious, but I can't help but think that the majority of people that find these Virgin Marys in orinary stains/objects that gleefully run off to the local news outlet to report about them are just some poor saps that just want a little attention.

I would absolutely love to see someone do a documentary on these people and interview as many of them as possible -- and I wouldn't be surprised if there were a number of them that felt some sort of shame or guilt running to the Channel 4 news with this stuff due to neighbors or co-workers suddenly treating them like loonies.

#26

Posted by: Happy Himanist | July 18, 2009 9:37 AM

My favorite was the virgin Mary in an puddle of gasoline a gas station.

#27

Posted by: Duvenoy | July 18, 2009 9:38 AM

I've always thought that Piss Christ had a certain, haunting beauty about it; far better than what you might see in most church portraits.

Eh, bird crap, cheese sandwiches, oil stains, dirty windows - that little chippy certainly gets around, doesn't she?

doov

#28

Posted by: spork_incident | July 18, 2009 9:38 AM

Corvus sez:

Is it just me, or do the vast majority of these Virgin Mary appearances look like vulvas?

Yep. My first thought was, "It's a lost Georgia O'Keefe painting!"

#29

Posted by: söve | July 18, 2009 9:40 AM

That'd be amazing- söve how many vaginas do söve you think bear a söve resemblance enough to the söve Virgin Mary? Sounds like something söve worth investigating.

#30

Posted by: Sven DIMilo | July 18, 2009 9:40 AM

And it's ba77 with Pascal's wager, again! That's 20 points for the blithering idiots, Biff.

Right you are, Chet!

#31

Posted by: Julie Gomoll | July 18, 2009 9:40 AM

OMG, not only is it the Virgin Mary - it's her VAGINA! And is that a hymen I see? Could this be proof that she was a virgin?

#32

Posted by: blueelm | July 18, 2009 9:41 AM

If some one made an image of the virgin Mary in that medium they'd be singing a different tune.

Oh, ot but I saw this while stumbling:
http://www.wired.com/beyond_the_beyond/2009/07/vague-scientist/

#33

Posted by: XD | July 18, 2009 9:41 AM

It reminded me of Edvard Munch's The Scream.

(as an aside, I'm browsing Pharyngula without AdBlockPlus for the first time in forever (just updated to Jaunty). Fuuuuuuuuuuuu.....! Why do advertisers make their web-ads so freaking awful?!?!?! There is a reason why people use Ad Blocking software, and the ads on ScienceBlogs is it.)

#34

Posted by: Matrim | July 18, 2009 9:45 AM

@ #2> Are you kidding, half of U2's songs sound just like the other half. And almost none of them (since Joshua Tree) have been worth a damn.

As for the stain, meh...it doesn't surprise me at all. There's a water mark on the wall of an underpass in Chicago that's been around for years, people still leave flowers and icons around it because it looks vaguely like a robed figure. Earlier this year I went and put up a picture of the Emperor from Star Wars next to it, I thought it looked more like him than the Virgin Mary.

#35

Posted by: weaves | July 18, 2009 9:46 AM

my thought was "vagina".

#36

Posted by: OurDeadSelves | July 18, 2009 9:48 AM

Eye of Sauron, anyone?

#37

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 18, 2009 9:48 AM

Surely such revelations would at least be disturbing to you as well. Or do you just pretend none of this matters by placating your unanchored hostility towards God with obfuscations of imagination which never address the scientific matter at hand in the first place?

Absolutely no evidence for your imaginary god. God is delusion that exists between your ears. Keep it there unless you want to be seen for the fool you are. Until you acknowledge that truth, you are a deluded fool.

#38

Posted by: Neil B ♪ | July 18, 2009 9:55 AM

Yeah, this fascination is weird. BTW, that's the "Virgin of Guadalupe" image on the right. That's often the "template" for how "authentic" a BVM image is. Anyone know, if someone ever figured out how the VoG was made, by whom etc? Not I suppose by the Indian who reportedly brought the blanket in the 1500s. I suppose Wikipedia has a good rundown at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe#Historicity_debate_and_controversies, but I'm wary to keep saying, "I suppose Wikipedia has a good ...."

#39

Posted by: Hank Fox | July 18, 2009 9:56 AM

Sorry, the one on the right looks poopier to me. At least the other one is honest, accidental bird shit. The Virgin Mary is a symbol of thousands of years of lies and enslavement, of vicious human predators dancing on the backs of billions of hapless human prey.

Oh by the way, God allowed the Pope to fall and break his wrist recently, but thanks to modern medicine administered by doctors and surgeons, he's expected to make a full recovery.

#40

Posted by: Neil B ♪ | July 18, 2009 9:58 AM

A scary thing in that Wikipedia article, is this:
... Schulenburg in particular caused a stir with his 1996 interview with the Catholic magazine Ixthus, when he said that Juan Diego was "a symbol, not a reality."[16] Schulenburg was not the first to disbelieve the traditional account nor the first Catholic prelate to resign his post after questioning the Guadalupe story. In 1897, Eduardo Sánchez Camacho, the Bishop of Tamaulipas was forced to leave his post after expressing similar disbelief.[17]...

#41

Posted by: Wildflower | July 18, 2009 9:59 AM

Gotta love it. The mother of the son of the all-powerful God manifests itself as a piece of bird excrements... not even professional satire could come up with that.

Does anyone need more evidence of the state of the religious mind?

This type of "miracle" are cries for help, misfiring last attempts of what's left of their rationality. They do not really believe. No - they are literally brain-sick.

They've been brainwashed; pressured into these unhealthy believes by society and their own inescapable desires... and subconsciously the brain is aware of it. It knows -- as much as an organ can know anything -- that this religious virus is health-threatening.

It tries to get rid of the virus by attacking its core: Faith. It demands evidence! In a last desperate struggle for survival it grasps at anything it can... and with what little of this makes it into the conscious mind the believers find themselves no longer believing on faith alone but searching for evidence, no, even proof in their mind, everywhere they can. Their need is so strong that even the dried excrements of some animal will do.

#42

Posted by: 386sx | July 18, 2009 10:04 AM

Bono is probably the greatest entertainer that the history of humanity has ever known, throughout all of time.

#43

Posted by: Roland Branconnier | July 18, 2009 10:07 AM

Holy, Avian, Scatology Batman!!

#44

Posted by: co | July 18, 2009 10:11 AM

We also predict that any forthcoming more-detailed models of the creation and history of the universe arising from future dark galaxy discoveries will prove to be a beautiful match with the Bible’s story of the universe’s beginning and development.

bornagain77, Hugh Ross' webpage is a hodgepodge of tenuous predictions and vague assertations, even --- especially --- in his field of astrophysics. The quote above is a prime example. It's no prediction, yet it's about as close as he comes.

#45

Posted by: Neil B ♪ | July 18, 2009 10:13 AM

Hey Nerd, just wondering: are many worlds in QM, "other universes" etc just a delusion in someone's head? I mean, does there have to be "evidence" or is a good "argument" good enough? And I mean in principle, not just re the issue of "God" (forget "religion" - in philosophy, "God" is a placeholder for whatever necessarily exists and is the cause for the/some universe/s, if they aren't that themselves.)

#46

Posted by: Larry | July 18, 2009 10:23 AM

To paraphrase a quote often attributed to Freud: sometimes bird shit is just bird shit.

#47

Posted by: george | July 18, 2009 10:27 AM

"Is it just me, or do the vast majority of these Virgin Mary appearances look like vulvas?"

It's not just you, but the fact is that most female goddess images are supposed to be shaped like vulvas. A holdover from their pagan origins.

#48

Posted by: Sauceress | July 18, 2009 10:37 AM

vulpes #11

Mary's picture in a bird shit?!? Come on that sounds more blasphemic than almost anything I heard people complaining about lately.

How about this one..
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zqFoq3qej2c/RrDU2wlOhaI/AAAAAAAADcs/o0LUFRxn5Lk/s400/2004-03-25--Prayer_Urinal.jpg

#49

Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | July 18, 2009 10:38 AM

I would be more impressed if the Birdshit Mary would drop onto a statue of the holy mother. Or if the Birdshit Mary would drop onto the Tree Trunk Mary.

#50

Posted by: sailor1031 | July 18, 2009 10:41 AM

Do we have some kind of weird competition going on here? BVM appears in a tree stump in Ireland, MJ appears in a tree stump in California. BVM appears in bird shit in Texas; What will Michael do now? I can't wait for the next apparition of holy shit.

#51

Posted by: whitebird | July 18, 2009 10:42 AM

One more vote for vulva, here. In fact, without seeing the caption, I thought the whole thing was a diptych about "Mary's Role", and how she is mirrored and how it's blurry,and stuff, or something. You can leave art school, but art school never leaves you...

#52

Posted by: Criswell | July 18, 2009 10:44 AM

"Drop kick me Jesus through the goalposts of life"

is now joined by

"Drive me Mary through the car wash of this here town"

order now and you get the uncut version of Jesus Christ Superstar:

"Jesus Christ, Superstar/
Why is your mom in some shit on a car?"

(not Cuttlefish quality but...)

#53

Posted by: MPG | July 18, 2009 10:46 AM

Good, but not as good as the dog ass Jesus.

#54

Posted by: June | July 18, 2009 10:47 AM

Having to look at the ABC News site is even worse than having to look at the sacred sliding slime shit.

How long can a sane person endure ABC News and its one-ad-per-news-byte torture? And after about 4 news bytes, the same commercials repeat!

YouTube is also being turned into a shit sandwich by Google.

#55

Posted by: Af Comm Guy | July 18, 2009 10:47 AM

Is it just me or do Catholics (especially of the Latino variety) seem to be getting rather desperate in their Virgin Mary sightings? This kind of goofiness pops up everywhere but to see it in bird droppings; that's REALLY reaching. Could this desperation be a sign that they are losing their reason to have faith and are now just desperately clinging to any "sign" they can find? Here is to hoping they find their doubt.

#56

Posted by: whitebird | July 18, 2009 10:47 AM

@11 - http://www.mtholyoke.edu/offices/comm/csj/991008/madonna.html

Maybe not dog doo, but how about elephant dung? It happened (over 10 years ago), his name is Chris Ofili, and the Christians were PISSED (christ) (oh, har, har, art jokez).

#57

Posted by: sailor1031 | July 18, 2009 10:48 AM

" We also predict that any forthcoming more-detailed models of the creation and history of the universe arising from future dark galaxy discoveries will prove to be a beautiful match with the Bible’s story of the universe’s beginning and development."

The bible says absolutely nothing about the beginning and development of the universe, which is a concept of which the bible writers were totally ignorant. The Bible account is strictly describing the alleged creation of the planet earth and nothing more.

#58

Posted by: Marcus Ranum | July 18, 2009 10:52 AM

It's a miracle!! God made the laws of physics work so that a semi-liquid mass striking a vertical surface would make a streak - and the intelligently designed bird poop to diffuse across the surface of car paint to give a chromatic effect!! And, most miraculous of all, god made sure those poor shitheads didn't wax their car so the bird poop wouldn't run off!

Halleluljah!! Allah Woowoo! Cthulhu fhtagn! (jazzhands)

#59

Posted by: Ron Sullivan | July 18, 2009 10:53 AM

Our Lady of the Guano, pray for us.

#60

Posted by: whitebird | July 18, 2009 10:55 AM

@50 - I don't think there's a tour planned, but see for yourself.

http://www.myspace.com/40059154

#61

Posted by: 'Tis Himself | July 18, 2009 11:11 AM

I think it's a very interesting picture. Most bird shit is white with occasional black and gray speckles. That's polychromatic bird shit. It makes me wonder what the bird had been eating.

#62

Posted by: Tulse | July 18, 2009 11:11 AM

That must be one of those kenotic, apophatic, purely metaphorical miracles that all the cool theologians talk about. Surely no true, real, sophisticated believer thinks that it is something as crude as the depiction of a literal virgin who gave birth represented in bird shit.

I personally see the Ground of Being, myself. But purely metaphorically, of course.

#63

Posted by: Quentin S. | July 18, 2009 11:20 AM

Too bad it isn't bull shit: it could have led to an interesting debate about Christianism vs. Mithraism...

#64

Posted by: hyperdeath | July 18, 2009 11:25 AM

Yet again, we have a pompous New Atheist pontificating on deep theological matters, without the slightest understanding of the underlying philosophy. Your naive analysis of iconography would make a first year theology student wince. Saying that the bird dropping doesn't resemble the Virgin Mary is a bit like complaining that Picasso's Guernica doesn't accurately depict a war scene. You ineptly try to hammer the incarnation into one of the crude scientistic categories of resemblance and non-resemblance, which a bit like trying to divide all poetry into the categories of "happy" and "sad". Apparitions of the Virgin Mary are not pictorial depictions in anything but the most absurd literalist sense. The disciplines of kenotic theology and evolutionary theology are far more relevant to these big questions than the narrow 19th century positivism you display here. Perhaps you should try learning them?

#65

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 18, 2009 11:30 AM

"Yet again, we have a pompous New Atheist pontificating on deep theological matters, without the slightest understanding of the underlying philosophy. Your naive analysis of iconography would make a first year theology student wince. Saying that the bird dropping doesn't resemble the Virgin Mary is a bit like complaining that Picasso's Guernica doesn't accurately depict a war scene. You ineptly try to hammer the incarnation into one of the crude scientistic categories of resemblance and non-resemblance, which a bit like trying to divide all poetry into the categories of "happy" and "sad". Apparitions of the Virgin Mary are not pictorial depictions in anything but the most absurd literalist sense. The disciplines of kenotic theology and evolutionary theology are far more relevant to these big questions than the narrow 19th century positivism you display here. Perhaps you should try learning them?"

You sure are verbose about what is only bird shit.

#66

Posted by: Tulse | July 18, 2009 11:32 AM

Nice Poe, hyperdeath!

(It is a Poe, right?)

#67

Posted by: vulpes | July 18, 2009 11:37 AM

Sauceress #48

How about this one..

That's great - the other ones also:
http://ifitshipitshere.blogspot.com/2007/08/talk-about-pissing-on-religion-china.html

Guess I have to visit China again asap... ;)

#68

Posted by: Muffin | July 18, 2009 11:38 AM

Funny, it looked more like the eye of Sauron to me.

#69

Posted by: Criswell | July 18, 2009 11:40 AM

I think the answer to whether hyperdeath is a poe / tongue firmly in cheek is found quite easily at his/her website - anyone riffing off Futurama has my vote for 'OP' (Order of the Poe). Bonus points for using 'scientistic'. :)

#70

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 18, 2009 11:42 AM

Don't tell me I was taken in by it!

Oh well. Sorry people.

#71

Posted by: Psychodigger | July 18, 2009 11:51 AM

#72

Posted by: Kelseigh | July 18, 2009 11:53 AM

Poe? I thought hyperdeath did a spot-on perfect imitation of a Postmodernist.

#73

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 18, 2009 11:53 AM

My Poe detector doesn't work well, so if I am in doubt, which is usually the case, I let others make the call.

#74

Posted by: JD | July 18, 2009 11:55 AM

http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=3703786

This one shows the image of Harvey Carginan (clearly).

#75

Posted by: Marcus Ranum | July 18, 2009 12:05 PM

You'd think that the blessed virgin mary would appear on youtube instead of only doing local appearances... (condescending) Certain people are clearly stuck in the bronze age...!

I just failed to talk my girlfriend into helping me set up a "blessedvirginmary" youtube ID, so we could do videos of her complaining about all the imposters impersonating her with bird poop, etc. There's some potential for good offensive fun, there... But I've already got too many projects going on to take on another one.

#76

Posted by: nanahuatzin | July 18, 2009 12:11 PM

386sx @ 16

Some year ago, the Abad of the "Basilica de guadalupe" made an important statement... although, probably it was not what he intended to do... it is real.

"More than than catholics, mexican people are "Guadalupanos""

That spite a 50 years of a strong laicist goverment.

For years (before the las two conservative presidents) no politician dared to use the word "god" in public, and priest were not allowed to vote or held a goberment job.

Still the catholic chuch managed to be in control, until the last 15 years where pentecostal churches to growing.

As a result, our laicist education has been challenged recently, arghhhh.

#77

Posted by: Feynmaniac | July 18, 2009 12:12 PM

Though I will not try to defend such a thing as a "Mary Sighting", there are many other evidences that point to God,,, Enough of which to even make someone as a "rational atheist" as you to take a serious pause. What if you are wrong in all this PZ??? Just what if it is true God did create the universe?

What if you are wrong about the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Seriously, do you think none of us have heard arguments for God before? I'll just mention the "best" ones: transcendental argument, the argument from design, the cosmological argument, the ontological argument, "subjective epistemic knowledge", argument from morality, and Pascal's wager.

In short: circular reasoning mixed with an argument from ignorance, obsolete after Darwin, only shifts the burden to what caused God, just plain wrong, can be used to prove mental patient is in fact Napoleon Bonaparte, morality comes from biological hardwiring and social agreed upon rules, and fails to take into account all the other gods/godesses you piss off by not believing in them.

#78

Posted by: The Petey | July 18, 2009 12:15 PM

Why do most of these "virgin mary" things resemble abstract vulvas more than a human figure?

#79

Posted by: Jennifer B. Phillips (aka Danio) | July 18, 2009 12:27 PM

Why do most of these "virgin mary" things resemble abstract vulvas more than a human figure?

Considering the what Mary's vagina supposedly contributed to all mankind, it makes perfect sense to me. When you get right down to it, it's her ladyparts that are really being revered, right?

#80

Posted by: Jennifer B. Phillips (aka Danio) | July 18, 2009 12:34 PM

Or maybe it's they're all just manifestations of the guilt reactions some people have when they see a shape that looks like a vagina.

"Heeeeey, that sure does looks like a....no! stop! must...think...pure....thoughts.......umm...umm....virginmary!virginmary!"

#81

Posted by: SteveM | July 18, 2009 12:39 PM

... evidences ...

not a word

#82

Posted by: Lucilius | July 18, 2009 12:47 PM

Hey, somebody look up the bird's ass and see if there's a picture of the Assumption in there.

#83

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | July 18, 2009 12:48 PM

it's her ladyparts that are really being revered

and rightly so

#84

Posted by: Lynna | July 18, 2009 12:50 PM

bornagain77 @21 wrote:

your unanchored hostility towards God with obfuscations of imagination

I must say, I liked "unanchored hostility." Of course the "unanchored" part is completely unanchored in fact, but I appreciate the employment of a new adjective from the bornagains of the world. Bornagains are usually so repetitive that one can barely make it through the presentation of Pascal's Wager without nodding off.

Not so sure about "obfuscations of imagination." If I were bornagain's editor, I would just delete that phrase. It doesn't add to the overall effect, and it detracts from the considerable punch of "unanchored hostility." Points for spelling "obfuscation" correctly, though!

#85

Posted by: harmlesstree | July 18, 2009 12:54 PM

The Virgin Seahorse?

#86

Posted by: harmlesstree | July 18, 2009 12:58 PM

The Virgin Seahorse?

#87

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | July 18, 2009 1:00 PM

it's her ladyparts that are really being revered
and rightly so

...on account of they were either magical or god's favorites; either way...

#88

Posted by: Lynna | July 18, 2009 1:09 PM

For hyperdeath @64, I add my vote to the "probably Poe" category. Excellent obfuscation via postmodernist claptrap.

#89

Posted by: Rey Fox | July 18, 2009 1:13 PM

The flip side of this story could be that a) the fellows in question really are just jerking the chain of the news outlets, or b) that the newspeople just put these stories on so that everyone can have a nice laugh (especially the people whose religion is MUCH more sophisticated than that of these fellows).

#90

Posted by: Neil B ♪ | July 18, 2009 1:24 PM

Re "what caused God" point made above: sure, there'd be an infinite regression if literally everything "needed a cause", so the issue is instead about what is credible as that which doesn't need to be caused. I'm not offering an answer here, just saying you've misframed the question.

As for the VoG, I like the syncretist elements due to my study of Aztec religion, reading of Castandeda (fun in any case) etc.
Wikipedia:

Many writers, including Patricia Harrington and Virgilio Elizondo, describe the image as containing coded messages for the indigenous people of Mexico.[4][5]

"The Aztecs...had an elaborate, coherent symbolic system for making sense of their lives. When this was destroyed by the Spaniards, something new was needed to fill the void and make sense of New Spain...the image of Guadalupe served that purpose."[6]

Her blue-green mantle was described as the color once reserved for the divine couple Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl;[7] her belt is interpreted as a sign of pregnancy; and a cross-shaped image symbolizing the cosmos and called nahui-ollin is said to be inscribed beneath the image's sash.[8]

Yet another interpretation of the image is offered by the historian William B. Taylor, who recounted that Guadalupe has also been "acclaimed goddess of the maguey [agave]" and pulque was drunk on her feast day. A 1772 report described the rays of light around Guadalupe as maguey spines.[9][10]

Hey, agave is what they make Tequila from! This "virgin Mary" is perhaps the goddess of Tequila. Think about that next time you sip some. It's also that "Agave" drink with a worm in the bottle. - I drank some and ate the worm, it wasn't that gross (surprisingly crunchy instead of squish, and flavored enough to be OK.)

Or maybe she's the wife of "Mescalito"?

#91

Posted by: Rey Fox | July 18, 2009 1:26 PM

"When you get right down to it, it's her ladyparts that are really being revered, right? "

Well sure. Pretty much every culture ever has revered fertility. It's just the Abrahamic faiths that have added this weird fetishization of virginity on top of it.

#92

Posted by: hyperdeath | July 18, 2009 1:29 PM

As you may have guessed, my previous post (#64) was satire. (As a rough rule-of-thumb, anything using the term "kenotic" is probably satire.)

Being so pretentious and vapid took a serious amount of mental effort. I almost admire Terry Eagleton for keeping up the act for a whole book. No wonder he looks so washed-out and ill.

#93

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 18, 2009 1:53 PM

~~As you may have guessed, my previous post (#64) was satire. (As a rough rule-of-thumb, anything using the term "kenotic" is probably satire.)~~

Being so pretentious and vapid took a serious amount of mental effort. I almost admire Terry Eagleton for keeping up the act for a whole book. No wonder he looks so washed-out and ill.

You had me fooled.

#94

Posted by: Levi in NY | July 18, 2009 2:13 PM

Nope, sorry, I don't see the Virgin Mary in there.

Oh no, wait...is that a close-up on her hymen?

#95

Posted by: Your Mighty Overload | July 18, 2009 2:26 PM

Bornagain77 said;
"What if you are wrong in all this PZ??? Just what if it is true God did create the universe?"

What if YOU are wrong? What if the Devil is really the good guy? After all, you only have one side of the argument. And what if the Muslims are right? You're screwed then. Or the Hindus? Or the Ancient Greeks?

#96

Posted by: Midnight Rambler | July 18, 2009 2:27 PM

Re hyperdeath's post @64: Since, as people have pointed out, it was more postmodern than fundie-crazy, it would be more properly called a Sokal rather than a Poe.

#97

Posted by: Ryan Egesdahl | July 18, 2009 2:41 PM

Well, my favorite pseudo-religious expletive used to be "Jesus Shitting Christ on a fucking porcelain cross" - but now I think it's going to be "Mary, mother of Jesus in a motherfucking pile of birdshit." It has a nice ring, doesn't it? Even better, it now has the ring of verisimilitude.

#98

Posted by: tim gueguen | July 18, 2009 2:58 PM

Yeah, add me to the "looks like lady bits" column. Is she trying to tell us she was actually the Virgin Exhibitionist?

#99

Posted by: Sili | July 18, 2009 2:59 PM

I'm pretty sure that all-body halo thing is indeed traditionally a vulva - sorta like the yoni, I think it's called. I'm surprised noöne with a degree in art history has weighed in yet.

Hi there, Hyperdeath.

How's Bath? Haven't been back in ages.

#100

Posted by: KI | July 18, 2009 3:04 PM

TH@61
It's mulberry time around here, and all the bird poop is bright purple, staining the concrete and leaving big craps on the cars. I will investigate for apparitions, and if successful, hope to be on the evening news.

#101

Posted by: Eupraxsopher | July 18, 2009 3:05 PM

Well, I think I can see a hymen... Praise be!

#102

Posted by: Ryan | July 18, 2009 3:12 PM

Slightly off topic but one of the top news stories on Google:

Pope breaks wrist and unable to pray due to cast.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gG9HJoT0-jivCcpwqmDDlY6ctIiQ

Which ranks just above oldest man in world dies.

#103

Posted by: Bridget McKinney | July 18, 2009 3:34 PM

@bornagain77
I think that if God really did create anything, then PZ et al will be pleasantly surprised. If it turns out their is no god, then none of us will no any different when we die.
There's really something sick and WRONG with the folks who think that their "just, righteous, and loving" God is going to send shitloads of people to burn in hell for all eternity. And it's BS to say "God isn't bound by *human* morality," since God is supposed to be the final arbiter of morality in the Christian religion. I just keep wondering how long people are going to keep being jerks about "spreading the gospel." How about just being NICE to other people instead?

#104

Posted by: SC, OM | July 18, 2009 3:51 PM

Say it with me! Can I get a Hymen?!

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen

Tell me that's not The Scream.)

#105

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 18, 2009 3:59 PM

Just be thankful it's not Canadian Goose crap. We have what seems like an entire village of Geese on our lake and there is shit everywhere.

Big honking goose shit.

None of it looks like Mary or Jesus unfortunately.

Though there is one I saw that bares a stricking resemblance to John Hagee.

#106

Posted by: atomjack | July 18, 2009 4:01 PM

JohnT @19...it doesn't get any cornier than those three, anyway.

#107

Posted by: Vinifera7 | July 18, 2009 4:03 PM

So practically any irregular elongated shape can be taken to be an image of the Virgin Mary?

#108

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 18, 2009 4:05 PM

Just be thankful it's not Canadian Goose crap. We have what seems like an entire village of Geese on our lake and there is shit everywhere.

Sounds like our area. Every new business park/apartment complex had to create a man-made pond to improve the view. And the geese found these very attractive, and decided to remain the year around.

#109

Posted by: eddie | July 18, 2009 4:07 PM

I think the real pareidolia here is that many humans, not all male, see the senblance of vulvas all over the place. There's a similar thing with the phallus too.
What the nutjobs have is real pare-wossname with their usual sexual repression on top.

#110

Posted by: Lynna | July 18, 2009 4:12 PM

Rev @105: Sounds like the Green Belt in Idaho Falls. Supposedly this is a nice public area along the Snake River where folks take walks, have a picnic, etc. But the amount of goose shit precludes enjoyment. The view over the shit is of the Mormon Temple. Geese are not allowed in the Temple.

#111

Posted by: Nominal Egg | July 18, 2009 4:31 PM

This "virgin Mary" is perhaps the goddess of Tequila. Think about that next time you sip some.

Wait. Sip some?

#112

Posted by: Anri | July 18, 2009 4:31 PM

In RE: Pascal's Wager,

I rather liked the webcomic Dresden Codak's (http://dresdencodak.com/) take on the matter - it dealt with the Atheist Heaven, where only those who refused to believe in god were admitted into paradise. When more closely questioned, one of the inhabitants commented that the universe was powered by irony.

So, for all you out there that want to sic ol' Pascal on us, we're just betting in god only rewarding the infidels.
That's not accurate, really, but it's the closest you're likely to get.
And it might just make you shut up a bit.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled, rightly-deserved mocking...

#113

Posted by: Anri | July 18, 2009 4:38 PM

Hmm! I wonder if we can tie this in to Crackergate?

Could this be what happens when EBIL ATEIESTS FEED TEH BURDS TEH HOSTZ?

Blasphemy!

We better tell M&K about this...!

#114

Posted by: Chasbo | July 18, 2009 4:50 PM

Ever since seeing Our Lady of Guadalupe on the back of an Astro Van some 20 years ago, I've been calling her the "Vagina Mary." Glad to see I have some company here.

#115

Posted by: AnswersInGenitals | July 18, 2009 4:52 PM

vulpes #11

Mary's picture in a bird shit?!? Come on that sounds more blasphemic than almost anything I heard people complaining about lately.

You may disparage this icon as just being some birdshit, but remember that each species shit is another species nectar of the gods. People with a scientific bent should know this.

#116

Posted by: Ttruckloadbear | July 18, 2009 4:54 PM

Turn it on it's side:

VOILA! The Eye of Sauron.

#117

Posted by: Lynna | July 18, 2009 5:17 PM

Virgin Mary and elephant dung
http://www.guardian.co.uk/pictures/image/0,8543,-10704194503,00.html

#118

Posted by: lordshipmayhem | July 18, 2009 5:37 PM

I don't know where they're getting the Virgin Mary from. I looked at it quite a long time (at least .39 of a second), and clearly saw a Toronto Maple Leaf hockey sweater, all praise be to our Lord Stanley of Cup.

Being made out of bird turd of course is an editorial comment on their state of play the last few... ah, decades.

At least ABC got it partially right: it IS about religion, it's just about Canada's national religion rather than Roman Catholicism.

#119

Posted by: blf | July 18, 2009 5:45 PM

False colour image of the Eye of Sauron.

#120

Posted by: Happy Tentacles | July 18, 2009 5:55 PM

So who looks at a vulva-like shape splatted in polychromatic birdshit, and immediately thinks "Ah yes, that's god's mother, that is!"? Freaky.

#121

Posted by: donna | July 18, 2009 6:06 PM

Right there with you, corvus... I always smile when I see those things... yonis are everywhere...

#122

Posted by: 'Tis Himself | July 18, 2009 6:21 PM

I have to agree with certain other minions, that's definitely the Eye of Sauron.

#123

Posted by: 'Tis Himself | July 18, 2009 6:21 PM

I have to agree with certain other minions, that's definitely the Eye of Sauron.

#124

Posted by: ad | July 18, 2009 6:21 PM

> Posted by: SC, OM | July 18, 2009 3:51 PM
> Say it with me! Can I get a Hymen?!
>
>( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen
>

I think you meant one of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulva

#125

Posted by: 'Tis Himself | July 18, 2009 6:25 PM

I only clicked "post" once. I swear on Rev BDC's almost empty beer can that's true.

#126

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 18, 2009 6:26 PM

AD, SC is female, so she has the latter. Since she teaches at the college level with the requisite degrees, I presume the former is long gone.

#127

Posted by: juno | July 18, 2009 6:31 PM

i think its freakin' HELL-arious, and i think its really scaryscary that these poor forgotten souls seek out religious images, with such desperation, in such common forms as bird doody! And even more disturbing...female sexual parts? which is more normal? or abnormal? And then worse of all, i have to wonder if something is wrong with me...because all i see is BIRD POOP!

#128

Posted by: juno | July 18, 2009 6:38 PM

i think its freakin' HELL-arious, and i think its really scaryscary that these poor forgotten souls seek out religious images, with such desperation, in such common forms as bird doody,and with expectations that they are ominous or prophetic! And even more disturbing...female sexual parts? which is more normal? or abnormal? And then worse of all, i have to wonder if something is wrong with me...because all i see is BIRD POOP!

#129

Posted by: juno | July 18, 2009 6:47 PM

sorry about the double post...i left out the part about ominous and prophetic...i thought that was the funny!

#130

Posted by: JoshS, OfficialSpokesGay | July 18, 2009 6:54 PM

Yes, yes, yes - a vulva was the very first thing I saw, too. It reminded me of gut-busting grocery store trip I took with a gal pal about 15 years ago. This is going to sound really immature, but please trust me it was hysterical, and you would have laughed too.

We were walking past the fish counter, looking for something for dinner. There was what turned out to be a platter of seafood-stuffing-filled salmon steaks. But they were so artfully constructed it was impossible not to do a double take. My friend and I both stopped, stared for a minute, and looked at each other, trying not to be the first person to laugh. She said,

"That's either the fishest-looking pussy I've ever seen, or the pussiest-looking fish. I just don't know which."

#131

Posted by: Hurin | July 18, 2009 7:00 PM

You win for bringing up Piss Christ.

#132

Posted by: JoshS, Official SpokesGay | July 18, 2009 7:08 PM

Considering the what Mary's vagina supposedly contributed to all mankind, it makes perfect sense to me. When you get right down to it, it's her ladyparts that are really being revered, right?

Jennifer, I just love you. You said lady parts! Now I have one of my favorite lines ever on perma-loop in my head. Tina Fey: "Woomba cleans my business. My lady business. And I like that."

#133

Posted by: JoshS, Official SpokesGay | July 18, 2009 7:17 PM

AnswersInGenitals

For that handle, you just won the Internet. The whole thing.

#134

Posted by: SC, OM | July 18, 2009 7:22 PM

Mulva?

#135

Posted by: JoshS, Official SpokesGay | July 18, 2009 7:24 PM

Mulva?

Vulvan Mary. Your turn again.

#136

Posted by: SC, OM | July 18, 2009 7:30 PM

Google.

#137

Posted by: JoshS, Official SpokesGay | July 18, 2009 7:31 PM

Google

Um. . . crisp bread?

#138

Posted by: SC, OM | July 18, 2009 7:34 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9MwW3PmARA

#139

Posted by: JoshS, Official SpokesGay | July 18, 2009 7:40 PM

Ah, I was ignorant - thanks SC!

#140

Posted by: Ron Sullivan | July 18, 2009 7:54 PM

Butbutbut. Those ladyparts of the BVM* weren't ever involved! Virgin conception, virgin birth! Rilly! It was like a miraculous C-section, no blood on the straw, no unladylike watermelon-shitting, just a sort of angelic sparkly zwinggg and there He was, all pink and adorable, halo included.

And if you'd ever tried to pass a halo, especially the kind Jesus wears with the cross-shaped reinforcements all up the middle, well. NB they didn't put one of those on the Baby Jesus Butt Plug.

*I didn't make that up. I didn't make up the strongly-held traditional magic painless birth with none of those scary dirty outside ladyparts involved, either.

Maybe I should teach a Catholicism for Sane People So They Get the Jokes class at a local Adult Ed joint. Sort of like ESL for the blessedly unblessed. I find myself doing a lot of this at flea markets, for free.

#141

Posted by: Bill James | July 18, 2009 8:05 PM

Best Virgin Mary sighting yet...

Just a tad juvenile is it professor?

#142

Posted by: mikecbraun | July 18, 2009 8:11 PM

Really, what the hell is the obsession with virgins in religion? Virgins don't know what the hell they're doing. Maybe the religious hierarchy (read:men) are embarrassed by their lack of knowledge and skill, and hope virgins will think they're animals in the sack. On topic, I took a dump that looked just like Jesus yesterday. By the time I was able to turn around and view it, he looked kind of pissed!

#143

Posted by: Rorschach | July 18, 2009 8:13 PM

So who looks at a vulva-like shape splatted in polychromatic birdshit, and immediately thinks "Ah yes, that's god's mother, that is!"?

Like the smell of desperate believers in the morning.

#144

Posted by: JoshS, Official SpokesGay | July 18, 2009 8:15 PM

Just a tad juvenile is it professor?

Your concern is noted.

#145

Posted by: 386sx | July 18, 2009 8:57 PM

#146

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 18, 2009 9:19 PM

You win for bringing up Piss Christ.

Do I get a secondary win for working at the actual Gallery (SECCA) when it showed Serrano's work and caused Jesse Helms to soil his diapers?

#147

Posted by: criswell | July 18, 2009 10:00 PM

Re: Matt Penfold got fooled very briefly by hyperdeath (way above)

Matt - don't flagellate yourself; it was an excellent Poe, you weren't fooled for long, several others of equal merit weren't sure either - and we all get distracted and fooled now and then. I like hyperdeath's kookometer (hours of fun! see where jad and kwak fit in!) so I had a bit of unfair knowledge.

You've been busy and very incisive at the M&K blog - hell, I'm wondering if we can nominate you for an OM for comments *there*.

May the great squid help us in the future...

#148

Posted by: Anri | July 18, 2009 10:03 PM

Bill James sez:

"Just a tad juvenile is it professor?"

Wait a sec - some folks claim that the image of the virgin mother of their undead immortal savior has appeared in a piece of smeared bird excrement...

And PZ is the one being juvenile?

Seriously?

#149

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 18, 2009 10:14 PM

Re Poes. There seems to be a contest, which I will never win, to call Poe the first. Which is why I wait.

#150

Posted by: dubiquiabs | July 18, 2009 10:42 PM

I think it's a very interesting picture. Most bird shit is white with occasional black and gray speckles. That's polychromatic bird shit. It makes me wonder what the bird had been eating.

Suspect various Morus spp. But this really is a question to be answered by Experimental Theology, specifically E-scatology.

#151

Posted by: RamziD | July 19, 2009 12:15 AM

Bryan, TX.

It makes sense. Bunch of stupid aggies...

#152

Posted by: Mary Mactavish | July 19, 2009 12:44 AM

I'm sure it's complete coincidence that early Marian iconography often looked like vulvas.

#153

Posted by: Nominal Egg | July 19, 2009 1:54 AM

Which is more annoying, a Libertarian or a Bono fan?

#154

Posted by: 386sx | July 19, 2009 3:10 AM

#155

Posted by: Yakaru | July 19, 2009 5:55 AM

Francis Collins is probably falling to his knees again.

#156

Posted by: 386sx | July 19, 2009 10:00 AM

#157

Posted by: 'Tis Himself | July 19, 2009 10:42 AM

Which is more annoying, a Libertarian or a Bono fan?

There's no doubt about that one. Bono has one redeeming feature, he actually gives a damn about other people. Libertarians don't.

#158

Posted by: 'Tis Himself | July 19, 2009 10:58 AM

I wish to retract my post #157. I see now that I actually misread the question. I compared Bono himself to libertarians when the question was about Bono fans.

Since the only thing more annoying than Bono fans are Green Day fans (although Dead Heads can be almost as annoying), then Bono fans win the Irritating Ilk Prize against a strong libertarian opponent.

#159

Posted by: Lynna | July 19, 2009 11:38 AM

Rev BDC @146: Hell, yeah. Big win points for the gallery-job timing.

So, let me get this straight: first the virgin-mary-elephant-dung painting was displayed in Brooklyn, right? Didn't Mayor Guiliani threaten to cut off all funding to the museum. Plus, if I remember correctly, there was a flap about cutting off federal funding for the arts.

Did the painting then travel from New York to your neck of the woods? Did you meet Serrano?

#160

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 19, 2009 11:54 AM

So, let me get this straight: first the virgin-mary-elephant-dung painting was displayed in Brooklyn, right? Didn't Mayor Guiliani threaten to cut off all funding to the museum. Plus, if I remember correctly, there was a flap about cutting off federal funding for the arts.

If I remember correctly, yes.

And the federal funding for the NEA is always the issue on these types of things. It was central to the Serrano incident.

#161

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 19, 2009 11:58 AM

The Dung Picture didn't come to SECCA if I remember correctly but Serrano's piece being hung at SECCA was what sparked helms to have one of his patented freak outs. I'm surprised he didn't blame it all on Harvey Gant. And unfortunately no I did not meet Serrano.

#162

Posted by: Lynna | July 19, 2009 12:03 PM

Rev @161: Harvey Gantt being African American would have been enough for Jesse Helms to blame him for all the art-that-offends-Helms? Sheesh.

I remember reading about the flap, and thinking "elephant dung" ewww. But then I saw the painting and changed my mind. It was cool and it stuck in my mind. Can still see it with my mind's eye.

#163

Posted by: Will | July 19, 2009 12:06 PM

Bono has one redeeming feature, he actually gives a damn about other people. Libertarians don't.

Libertarians care about people; they just believe private organizations can do a better job at caring for people than government ones.

#164

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | July 19, 2009 12:07 PM

Dead Heads can be almost as annoying

thin ice, dude

#165

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 19, 2009 12:10 PM

Libertarians care about people; they just believe private organizations can do a better job at caring for people than government ones.

No, they want to believe that private organizations can do better than government ones. They are shy on evidence showing this though.

#166

Posted by: Will | July 19, 2009 12:18 PM

No, they want to believe that private organizations can do better than government ones. They are shy on evidence showing this though.

That maybe true, but after watching the government's response to Katrina, I would hope someone could do a better job. Anyway, where's the evidence that government services are more efficient than private ones?

#167

Posted by: 'Tis Himself | July 19, 2009 12:20 PM

thin ice, dude

Hey, when Jerry Garcia was lead singer, the Grateful Dead could be described as a collection of competent nerds with a prodigiously charismatic and talented frontman. I'm not talking about the Garcia-era Dead or Dead Heads.

Bob Weir is a bona fide gravy trainer who would've probably invited frequent guest Huey Lewis to join the band as a full-time harmonica player had Garcia not understandably kept his pink Izod-wearing ass in check. Dead Heads don't realize how the band is now little more than a slightly above-average bar band with a frontman who needs a teleprompter to remember his own lyrics.

Let the Dead go, man. Jerry ain't there to carry them any more.

#168

Posted by: 'Tis Himself | July 19, 2009 12:24 PM

I apologize to everyone for giving a looneytarian the impression he could parade his fantasies and hatred for his fellow citizens.

#169

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | July 19, 2009 12:40 PM

Posted by: 'Tis Himself | July 19, 2009 12:20 PM

*shrug* Mostly wrong.
I do think the band peaked from 72-77 or so, and I have often wished that Weir would shut up and play the guitar (and without the slide, thanks), but anyone who thinks that they were ever just Jerry's backup band does not know of what they speak.
As for the recent tour, sure it ain't what it used to be, but people said that in 1972, 1976, 1979, 1986 (you might have heard me saying it at that point), and 1989, too. And the music was really pretty good, and sometimes great (the singing, yeah, not so much).

#170

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 19, 2009 12:42 PM

Anyway, where's the evidence that government services are more efficient than private ones?

Try history, especially the great depression, where the private sector was overwhelmed. Besides, l-words are making the claim, ergo, they need to supply the evidence. Which is still lacking.

#171

Posted by: Will | July 19, 2009 1:10 PM

Try history, especially the great depression, where the private sector was overwhelmed.

It's funny you should mention the Great Depression. Some economists believe FDR's New Deal prolonged the depression.

#172

Posted by: Will | July 19, 2009 1:14 PM

Some economists believe FDR's New Deal prolonged the depression.

HTML fail on my part. Here is the link:
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

#173

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 19, 2009 1:22 PM

Don't worry Will, we have seen all the liberturd ideology as has been presented here the last 8-10 months, and as a result we don't believe anything you post. It has already been refuted. After all, like the creobots, you will lie and distort the truth to protect your ideology. You will find no converts here. Go elsewhere.

#174

Posted by: Will | July 19, 2009 1:42 PM

...we don't believe anything you post. It has already been refuted. After all, like the creobots, you will lie and distort the truth to protect your ideology.

Nerd of Redhead, I'm not the one who's making the claim, professional economists are. These aren't like the so-called scientists at the Discovery Institute, but actual economists. They have done actual research. If you refuse to look at anything I post, fine, but I believe that puts you closer to creobot territory than me.

You will find no converts here. Go elsewhere.

I'm not here to find "converts." I'm here to read the blog and comment like everyone else.

#175

Posted by: Holbach | July 19, 2009 2:27 PM

I thought the bird poop was on the right.

#176

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 19, 2009 2:32 PM

Like I said Will, everything you say and post has been refuted already, by people like KnockGoats, time and time again ad nauseum. Which is why you and your citation aren't believed. Time for the killfile activation for another liberturd. Liberturds are morally bankrupt boring creatures who repeat themselves, repeat themselves, repeat themselves....

#177

Posted by: Rey Fox | July 19, 2009 2:49 PM

"That's polychromatic bird shit."

I think it's more likely an effect of the uric acid in the birdshit eating away at the paint on the truck.

#178

Posted by: Will | July 19, 2009 3:11 PM

Nerd of Redhead, I wasn't here to read any of Knockgoats' refutations, so I believe I can be forgiven if I posted something that has supposedly been refuted.

Time for the killfile activation for another liberturd.

You would actually block someone for making an argument in favor of Libertarianism? I thought it was just the creationists who were willfully ignorant.

#179

Posted by: Holbach | July 19, 2009 4:51 PM

Will @ 174

You have as much of a chance in finding converts here as you have in finding your imaginary god

#180

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 19, 2009 4:58 PM

You would actually block someone for making an argument in favor of Libertarianism? I thought it was just the creationists who were willfully ignorant.

You don't get it. Liberturds have been spewing their amoral shit here for 8-10 months. The same shit over and over, thread after thread hijack, and they never had a new idea beyond their ideology. I have heard and seen it all. You have nothing new to offer, (in fact, you cited the same old arguments they used) just the same old same old. Boring with a capital Bee-Oh-Are-Eye-En-Gee. You will be killfiled because you have nothing new. You have been refuted already during those 8-10 months by people responding to their shit. And since you have nothing different to say, you are old news...

#181

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | July 19, 2009 5:09 PM

Dear Hell-bound atheists,

I had a much better sighting of the Blessed Virgin than this.

As a starving orphan I used to search the rubbish bins behind the "Sister of the Star of the Sea of Galilee and Brighton Convent and Child Punishment Facility" and on one marvelous day I discovered a half-eaten piece of toast and honey, and right next to it a used sanitary pad. It can only have belonged to one of the Brides of Christ because there upon it, before my very eyes, was a perfect vision of the Blessed Virgin--Rapturous in Red, Holy in Hemoglobin! Well...after I'd eaten my toast I took my discovery straight to the Mother Superior, thinking she would rejoice with me at such a marvelous revelation. The week before, little Benny Rat had found a dog-turd that looked like a crucifix, and Brother Padraic had let him have three whole meals in one day. Bewilderingly the Reverend Mother screamed when I showed her my miraculous find, and she sent me to the Holy Fathers for a week of whipping and fasting.

Truly the ways of the Mother Church are confusing and inscrutable. The way they all carried on you'd have thought I'd done something really evil--like helping a raped child have an abortion.

#182

Posted by: Will | July 19, 2009 5:19 PM

You have as much of a chance in finding converts here as you have in finding your imaginary god.

I'm an atheist. I don't know what gave you the idea I believed in a god. Libertarianism ≠ theism.

#183

Posted by: blf | July 19, 2009 5:39 PM

I don't know what gave you the idea I believed in a god.

An absence of evidence; a reliance on belief; incuriosity; and appeal to authority. For starters…

However, those traits are not evidence per se, just circumstantial similarities. As such, they are a weak (albeit not un-rational) basis for suspecting dogmolesting.

#184

Posted by: Holbach | July 19, 2009 5:39 PM

Will @ 182

You are? No kidding?

#185

Posted by: Will | July 19, 2009 6:31 PM

You are? No kidding?

Is that sarcasm or are you actually asking me, Holbach?

An absence of evidence; a reliance on belief; incuriosity; and appeal to authority. For starters…

Posted by: blf

You must have one hell of an imagination if you see those qualities in my posts.

#186

Posted by: pyramus | July 19, 2009 6:38 PM

Getting back at least nominally to the subject at hand:

Some years ago, on the front page (above the fold!) of the rather sad local newspaper in the small city in which I was living (Saint John, New Brunswick) was a picture of a car window. The image of a candle had miraculously appeared on this window, and clearly it was a sign of a visitation of a saint of some description or other (since Catholics like to light candles to signify their devotion).

One look at the picture and anybody could see that a bird had shit on the window, and the driver had rolled the window down and then back up, the dung smearing into a long narrow rectangle with an untouched dab at the top. Voila: birdshit candle.

And that, of course, is exactly what it turned out to be. Even the news story conceded this.

Are people that desperate for miracles, that they'll take a smear of birdshit as an indication that a supernatural being is watching over them?

#187

Posted by: Holbach | July 19, 2009 7:05 PM

pyramus @ 186

Not so much desparate for miracles as they are truly unhinged, both emotionally and intellectually. As it is said, if you can believe in a god, you can believe in anything, including imaginary images in common feces, whether human or avian.

#188

Posted by: Holbach | July 19, 2009 7:20 PM

Will @ 185

No, just kidding, your veracity is genuine, but as an atheist, the word "convert" is a red flag to me and I jump to too hasty and jocular conclusions. Your political or personal feelings don't bother me as long as you're not a religious idiot. We are on the same side; no offense intended.

#189

Posted by: 'Tis Himself | July 19, 2009 7:57 PM

Some economists believe FDR's New Deal prolonged the depression.

Those economists are considered to be fringe looneytarian ideologues. You won't find too many people here who accept the Austrian School and the Von Mises Institute to be authoritative.

Conservatives and their looneytarian lickspittles make the claim about the New Deal and the Great Depression and you, following the demands of your political masters, echo it slavishly. But let's do something that you looneytarians really hate to do, let's examine the historical reality.

You folks base your New Deal revisionism on the short-lived recession in a year straddling 1937 and 1938. But that was four years into Roosevelt's term, four years marked by spectacular economic growth. Additionally, the fleeting decline happened not because of the New Deal's spending programs, but because Roosevelt momentarily listened to conservatives and backed off them. In 1937-38, FDR was persuaded to balance the budget and cut spending and the economy went back down again.

To be sure, you can argue that the New Deal had its share of problems. But overall, the numbers prove it helped, rather than hurt, the macroeconomy. "Excepting 1937-1938, unemployment fell each year of Roosevelt's first two terms [while] the U.S. economy grew at average annual growth rates of 9 percent to 10 percent," wrote historian Eric Rauchway.

What about the New Deal's most massive government intervention, its financial regulations? Did they prolong the Great Depression in ways the official data didn't detect? Nope.

According to Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke, "Only with the New Deal's rehabilitation of the financial system in 1933-35 did the economy begin its slow emergence from the Great Depression." In fact, even looneytarian economist Milton Friedman admitted that the New Deal's Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. was "the structural change most conducive to monetary stability since ... the Civil War."

Okay, if the verifiable evidence shows the New Deal did not prolong the Depression, what about historians? Do they "pretty much agree" on the opposite? Again, no.

As Newsweek's Daniel Gross reports, "One would be very hard-pressed to find a serious professional historian who believes that the New Deal prolonged the Depression."

As conservatives and their looneytarian toadies try to obstruct a new New Deal, they're not making any arguments that are remotely serious. They're just making up shit because their own economic policies have been found to be deficient.

#190

Posted by: Will | July 19, 2009 8:10 PM

No, just kidding, your veracity is genuine, but as an atheist, the word "convert" is a red flag to me and I jump to too hasty and jocular conclusions. Your political or personal feelings don't bother me as long as you're not a religious idiot. We are on the same side; no offense intended.

None taken, Holbach. It wasn't even my intention to get into a political debate and certainly not to find "converts." I just saw someone mention libertarians and thought I'd weigh in. If I had known there were annoying libertarians posting here for the last 8-10 months I wouldn't have posted anything about Libertarianism.

#191

Posted by: Will | July 19, 2009 8:31 PM

@'Tis Himself:

Thanks for the reply. There are probably libertarians who have counterarguments for every point you made, but I'm not one of them. My Libertarianism has nothing at all to do with the New Deal, but with people keeping all of the money they work for without government taking it. Anyway, this debate is boring, inane and pointless and I hereto agree not to mention anything else about Libertarianism on this blog. Please don't ostracize me; I like it here.

#192

Posted by: 'Tis Himself | July 19, 2009 8:49 PM

There are probably libertarians who have counterarguments for every point you made, but I'm not one of them.

A wise decision on your part.

Anyway, this debate is boring, inane and pointless and I hereto agree not to mention anything else about Libertarianism on this blog.

Another wise decision on your part. If you haven't gathered this already, looneytarianism is not well regarded here.

#193

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 19, 2009 9:03 PM

Please don't ostracize me; I like it here.

Then, stay away from political discussions, or just opine a couple of times and call it quits. If you don't threadjack, no problem. We have several regular posters who have l-word leanings who do that. And one in the dungeon who always threadjacked.

#194

Posted by: Feynmaniac | July 19, 2009 9:24 PM

Will,

You have to take people's attitude against Libertarianism in context. As many have mentioned, for months some Libertarians have hijacked many threads. The problem got so bad PZ once had an open thread explicitly asking people not to discus the subject. Can you guess what some Libertarians did?

The point is many people here have already heard pretty much every argument, often more than once, and have responded. Many are sick of hearing about it. Anyone wanting to discuss Libertarianism here should be aware of that. If that really bothers them then there are places on the web where you can find a more sympathetic crowd.

#195

Posted by: Will | July 19, 2009 9:32 PM

And one in the dungeon who always threadjacked.

I just read about the dungeon, should have done it sooner. I certainly don't want to go there.

#196

Posted by: strangebrew | July 20, 2009 4:56 AM

186#

'Are people that desperate for miracles, that they'll take a smear of birdshit as an indication that a supernatural being is watching over them?'

Hell yeah and especially in a Catolick state of foolishness...

Notice that the RCC hierarchy rarely... and certainly not loudly.....disparage such lunacy!

They are quite happy that the delusion should incorporate such tomfoolery cos that makes their own jeebus claims that little bit more palatable to the hard of thinking!

They do not encourage the nonsense publicly...but also they do not slap it rightfully down either publicly or presumably privately...'let the children play'...seems their motto...as long as that 'play' is affirmation not direct challenge to papal authority!
Let the woo rule...it does their job for them!

Benny baby is still top doggy molester and as such the titular head honcho of the inquisitors guild and exorcism supremo rolled into one delightful package of superstitious bilge...a position that Benny actually created for his own enjoyment and glory on his ascension to the top of the inept!

Benny baby believes in demons 'ghouls and succubi 'n' incubi and thangs that go bump 'n' grind in the dark of the night...says it all really...childish fucking sexually inadequate and intellectually incompetent mentally inhibited retards the lot of 'em!

And so the lies and fatuous pretence cascades down from the top of the doggy pile...to be lapped up by ignorant and gullible...they in turn like to pretend they are 'blessed' and a few 'miraculous images' they think confirms their booking to Nirvana for dipshits...

That they can only present tree stumps and burnt stale toast with the odd streak of bird shit for variety...it goes a long way to explaining the barking insanity.

And a very long way to explaining the desperation that the Catolick bunnies hop to these days...their delusion is not so accepted as it used to be and they are in deep shock!

#197

Posted by: The Countess | July 20, 2009 9:46 AM

How soon until Golden Palace buys it? ;)

#198

Posted by: Randy Crum | July 20, 2009 2:24 PM

If there's any question about whether this is really an image of the Virgin Mary, then surely the ID advocates can apply their techniques, measure both the"specificity" and "complexity", and give us all a definitive answer.

Right?

Right.....???

#199

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 20, 2009 2:52 PM