…and this is a 
Then you need to turn to the non-scientists for some refreshing expressions of unity. Or not.
A New Age magazine in Minnesota is under new management, and the editor wants to exercise some "quality control": astrology, fairies, life-force energy, and spiritual quests are OK. Channeling and paganism are out. This has annoyed the so-open-minded-their-brains-have-fallen-out crowd.
Other New Age leaders are appalled.
"He is excluding channeling? Yikes. Or pagans? He should not be doing that," said Kathy McGee, editor of the Washington-state-based magazine New Age Retailer.
"New Age is an umbrella term encompassing anything on a spiritual path — Bigfoot, Jesus, Buddha. Even worshipping a frog is sort of OK," McGee said.
She said New Age thinking is all-or-nothing — you either have an open mind to all beliefs, or you don't. It is wrong for anyone to pick which beliefs are acceptable.
"You don't want to say, 'This is OK, and this is not,' " McGee said. "There is nothing we would exclude. We are about goodwill to men."
Her definition, then, puts Bigfoot believers shoulder-to-shoulder beside organic farmers. Along with channeling, she includes the Fair Trade movement, which promotes products that benefit Third World farmers.
Wait a minute…worshipping a frog is sort of OK? Only "sort of"? I am offended. Why is she belittling the faith of frog-worshippers all around the world?
The rest of the story has some interesting information about the cracks in the New Age universe. Organic farmers would rather not be associated with fairies. Chiropractors really hate it — one says, "That New Age connection should not be made. I cannot see how anyone can put chiropractic care and Bigfoot together." To which I can only reply, well, what if Bigfoot has an aching back, huh? He's bipedal, he's probably got the same difficulties we do.
By the way, one psychic also joyfully reports that the poor economy is helping her business.
Comments
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 14, 2009 12:38 PM
Bigfoot is spiritual?
Posted by: catsnjags | July 14, 2009 12:40 PM
"By the way, one psychic also joyfully reports that the poor economy is helping her business."
But she KNEW that would happen... (evil grin)
Posted by: Bronze Dog | July 14, 2009 12:41 PM
Yes, Reverend, Bigfoot is spiritual. Can't remember the guy's name, but I've been in a thread with a guy who says BF's a supernatural shapeshifting alien who shows up fuzzy because he's changing forms 10,000 times a second. We know this because there's no evidence of a natural BF.
Anyway, back to what I was originally going to post in hopes of FIRST!: What, they're picking on frogs! They're one of my new favorite animals, like boars and canines. (For some reason, I've ended up having my tastes to liking dogs, frogs, and hogs. The first is obvious, but the second two not so much.)
Posted by: Glen Davidson
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July 14, 2009 12:41 PM
I love the fights between groundless beliefs. Well, except for the one over accommodationism (really, viewpoint is what matters there, as there is no single right answer).
Indeed, the IDiots have to tamp down fights over age of the earth and the like, because they don't want to actually stand for science on the age of the earth, and yet they don't want to look like idiots who think the earth is young.
I bet these particular dolts won't allow Cthulhu worship or FSM belief either. And why not? I believe they're as amply demonstrated as anything they espouse.
I suppose they may end up banning certain beliefs not so much because they're not "open-minded" in their own idiotic no-standards way, but because certain audiences aren't into certain beliefs. In that way it would make some sense, but once more they thereby show themselves to be basically religions and nothing more.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 14, 2009 12:43 PM
One subtly innocent string of words bears highlighting:
Do we need to be reminded that "New Age" is all about selling stuff to the gullible? Of course the editor or a New Age trade magazine wants to define the New Age "universe" in the way that most expands the pool of suckers.
BTW, fairies and astrology are OK but paganism is out? Really? Give me free-loving, frequently naked nature worshippers1 over chart-casters every time!
1 OK, OK... I know that's a cartoon version of paganism. Fun to visualize, though, innit?
Posted by: Zapp | July 14, 2009 12:43 PM
Worshipping a frog seems perfectly okay for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TKerWEQono
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 14, 2009 12:43 PM
Yeah I think I remember that guy. His name was Alan maybe?
Posted by: PZ Myers
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July 14, 2009 12:45 PM
Not only is Bigfoot spiritual, he's also piloting UFOs from their secret hangar in the Hollow Earth.
Posted by: Zapp | July 14, 2009 12:45 PM
Worshipping a frog seems perfectly okay for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TKerWEQono
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 14, 2009 12:46 PM
I beg to differ. Liking hogs is very obvious to me.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | July 14, 2009 12:49 PM
See! PZ knows what that JREF forums thread was about.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 14, 2009 12:49 PM
I hear Elvis is hi co-pilot.Posted by: PZ Myers
|
July 14, 2009 12:50 PM
Yeah, but you like them dead, flayed, and fried.
Posted by: Phrogge | July 14, 2009 12:51 PM
It's more than OK at my pad!
Posted by: Bostonian | July 14, 2009 12:51 PM
What will she do, I wonder, when Time Cube turns out to be true, thus invalidating all her New Age beliefs? She'll look pretty silly then.
I knew I shouldn't have paid her. BTW, in case she's right, you all might want to avoid visiting places whose names start with H or K.
Posted by: croak! | July 14, 2009 12:52 PM
Croak! Croak! Ribbet! Crooooak!!
Posted by: Charles | July 14, 2009 12:53 PM
Shame on him for trying to decide what might be bunk in such a fine bastion of gullibility.
Posted by: efp | July 14, 2009 12:53 PM
Should I be proud that I have no idea what these woo-shippers mean by "channeling"?
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 14, 2009 12:53 PM
Among other ways, yes.
Posted by: QrazyQat | July 14, 2009 12:53 PM
Why is she belittling the faith of frog-worshippers all around the world?
She's lucky she didn't say that in Ireland!
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | July 14, 2009 12:54 PM
Frog Worship
is it wrong?
[if this double-posts, I'm going to be unhappy]
Posted by: Geds | July 14, 2009 12:55 PM
Not only is Bigfoot spiritual, he's also piloting UFOs from their secret hangar in the Hollow Earth.
Bigfoot is working for the Saucer Nazis? No, it can't be. My world is ruined.
Daaaaaaaaamn you! Daaaaaaaamn you all!
Posted by: Big Ugly Jim | July 14, 2009 12:56 PM
I just love any list that puts Jesus and Buddha on the same plane as Bigfoot and the possibility of nonsensical frog-worship.
My ex-wife had a friend who was pagan. I suggest every reasonable human know a few pagans. It's important to remember to laugh.
Posted by: rob | July 14, 2009 12:56 PM
i read this in the paper yesterday. i was SOOOOOO hoping you would mention it. makes me cringe.
bigfoot or fairies? i can't decide.
Posted by: Alyson Miers | July 14, 2009 12:57 PM
How exactly does he define "paganism" to exclude life-force energy and spiritual quests? Pagan is a very big tent which includes stuff like...fairies, astrology, life-force energy and spiritual quests among its vast arrays of woo. I am thoroughly non-plussed at the cherry-picking of acceptable forms of malarkey.
Also, I'd like to start a religion of worshipping housecats. They're not nearly as dignified as they like to think, but at least they exist. There are certain actions on our part which unambiguously please them, and other actions which unambiguously annoy them. Now if only they could teach me how to stop being allergic to them, we'd be golden.
Posted by: Gilian | July 14, 2009 12:57 PM
They exclude non-Christian religions but they are ok with faeries ?
Are there really that many Christian-Astrologists-who-follow their-lifeforce-energies-into-spiritual-quests interested in a magazine subscription ? Or maybe their house pixie reads it ?
Posted by: gman
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July 14, 2009 1:00 PM
They came first for the Paganists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Paganist;
And then they came for the Bigfoot worshippers, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Bigfoot worshipper;
And then they came for the Cthulhists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Cthulists;
And then they came for me. And by that time there was no one left to speak up.
There's a lesson here, people!
Posted by: Benny the Icepick | July 14, 2009 1:02 PM
Well, I THINK I can see why she says that frog worship is only sliALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD!!!
http://r33b.net/
Posted by: NewEnglandBob
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July 14, 2009 1:04 PM
The term "New Age thinking" is an oxymoron.
Posted by: Mobius | July 14, 2009 1:06 PM
Bigfoot is on a spiritual path?
Who'd have known?
Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 14, 2009 1:06 PM
Now here's the pressing question: Does DIY exorcism count as "New Age"?
Jindal-Ensign 2012
Posted by: Glen Davidson
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July 14, 2009 1:08 PM
You mean, uh, that the one that actually has evidence for its existence is "sort of ok to worship," but the ones that do not exist (Jesus and Buddha likely did, yet do not now) are quite ok to worship?
At least reality gets a "sort of ok" from them.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: JohnW | July 14, 2009 1:12 PM
Bigfoot and reflexology would be a much better fit.Posted by: geru^ | July 14, 2009 1:13 PM
I sort of worship a frog, how dare you mock my beliefs?!
You're lucky we're not in Ireland, or I'd sue your ass of!
Posted by: DLC | July 14, 2009 1:14 PM
Why yes, I am getting tired of the bickering.
Not that I think Mooney & Kirshenbaum are right. They're entitled to their opinion, but I think they're off base entirely. Now, about this hat I'm supposed to wear -- does it have to be a slouch hat with a feather ?
Posted by: blf | July 14, 2009 1:16 PM
I myself like Cave Trolls. They stomp on fairies, kick Bigfoot's arse, eat astrologers and pagans (they're not choosey), use buddha as a toilet and jeebus to clean up the mess, and dig deep channels in the mountains using life-forces. They only thing that scares them is frogs, but they've worked out (or been taught) that chiropractors make good frog-swatters, even if they (the chiropractors) last only for two or three swats. All woo-woos should have a pet cave troll or two to remind them it's important to believe in what's just been smashed, pissed on, eaten, or swatted.
Balrogs are another good choice, but they tend to be hard on bridges and stairs. Keep 'em on level groujnd away from any wizards and you'll be fine.
Posted by: JefFlyingV | July 14, 2009 1:16 PM
Wow, Bigfoot as part of a spiritual quest. Might as well have Loch Ness included. The New Age movement seems as wacky or wackier than what it is trying to replace.
Posted by: The Countess | July 14, 2009 1:20 PM
Bill Dauphin: "Do we need to be reminded that "New Age" is all about selling stuff to the gullible?"
Ding ding ding! You win a cookie! Anyone here ever hear the term "New Wage"? I heard New Age gullible people described that way since the early 1980s. The Native American "gurus" were called "plastic shamans" by the real thing since it was all about white people pirating Native American beliefs for a buck.
(By the way, I'm listening to New Age music right now. I'll admit I do like that stuff. Very relaxing.)
Posted by: sailor1031 | July 14, 2009 1:21 PM
"Even worshipping a frog is sort of OK," McGee said.
OK lady, that Frog's name is Bokrug - and you will be in a world of hurt!!!
Posted by: nigelTheBold
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July 14, 2009 1:22 PM
Y'all lay off Bigfoot already. Yer hurting his feelings. He's quite sensitive, you know. (There, there, big guy. They didn't meant it.)
In any case, frogs are evil!
Posted by: Nomen Nescio | July 14, 2009 1:24 PM
the jokes, the obvious jokes, they stampede to the forebrain so hard it hurts.
Posted by: Martín Pereyra | July 14, 2009 1:27 PM
Frog worship seems to be serious business in India. And there are all those kitsch golden frogs with Chinese coins in their mouths that bring luck or prosperity or qi or whatever, or so I was told.
BTW, the Findhorn crowd could be associated with fairies...
Posted by: Holbach
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July 14, 2009 1:28 PM
Would they sanction the marriage of Big Foot and the tooth Fairy? Good grief, have we retrogressed to this point?
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
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July 14, 2009 1:31 PM
Sounds like the sort of cartoon I'd like, especially if it also involves ki attacks.
Posted by: Marcus | July 14, 2009 1:34 PM
Wait, we can worship frogs? Nobody ever mentioned that. Awesome! I'm off to Petsmart to buy me a hopping god.
Posted by: Chayanov | July 14, 2009 1:34 PM
There was a fire circle ritual in western Wisconsin last weekend. $75 for early registration. Afterward, the participants raved about the 5-star chefs who catered the weekend. Conspicuous consumption and selling religion to the New Age/pagan crowd.
Posted by: jdac | July 14, 2009 1:37 PM
Maybe they meant "imaginary"...
Posted by: azqaz | July 14, 2009 1:45 PM
All hail our hopping amphibian overloards.
Needeep croak ribbit, croak needeep!
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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July 14, 2009 1:48 PM
for some reason, the specific exclusion of paganism bugs me. why paganism, of all things? what about an actual religion makes it too different? is it too woo? not woo enough?
Posted by: Sili
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July 14, 2009 1:49 PM
...
Does the fact that I buy 'organic' and Fair Trade make me New Age? (Organic/Oekological, not biodynamic.)
Yuck.
At least I also eat roadkill. Or I will when I get around to cooking it.
Posted by: evinfuilt | July 14, 2009 1:54 PM
All hail the Hypnotoad!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yoJI-Tl94g
Posted by: DuckPhup | July 14, 2009 1:55 PM
So... as I see this... in order to be a 'TRUE New Age Whackaloon'™, you must be completely gullible; i.e., if you believe in the Giant Chicken-eating Frogs from the jungles of Sumatra but DO NOT believe in the Doughnut Fairy, then you are only partly gullible, and thus... just a poser.
That's somewhat different than what defines a 'True Christian'™, which is whoever can be claimed NOT to be guilty of the present accusation.
Animals... fairies... frogs... all of this reminds me of a story...
In a beautiful enchanted glade, deep in the forest, the Fairy Godmother was preparing to fulfill her magical obligations. All the animals were getting in line, seeking to have their problems resolved through her gentle graces. The first critter in line was a frog.
The FG greeted him. “Hi, Froggie! What can I do for you today?”
“Hello, Fairy Godmother,” said the frog. “As you can plainly see, I’m all yellow.”
“Yep... I can plainly see that”, said the FG. “So... what color would you like to be?”
“I’d like to be green, like the rest of the frogs,” he replied.
“No problem-o,” said the FG as she whipped out her magic wand, and began making magical passes.
With a *** FLASH *** and a *** POOF ***... the frog turned green.
“Thank you, Fairy Godmother,” said the frog, ecstatically.
Then... he looked down.
“Whoa”, the frog exclaimed. “Fairy Godmother... my... my pecker... it’s STILL YELLOW.”
“Sorry, Froggie” she said, sadly. “I don’t do peckers.”
“Well, that really sucks,” said the frog. “I’m going to look really stupid... hoppin’ around, all green ‘n’ everything... except for this yellow pecker stickin’ out. What can I do?”
“Well,” said the FG, I guess you could go see the Wizard of Oz. He does peckers. He should be able to fix you right up.”
“Cool” said the frog. “I know where that is. I’ll hop on over there right now.”
As the frog departed, the next critter stepped up.
“Hi, Elephant. What can I do for you today?” asked the FG.
“Hello, Fairy Godmother,” said the elephant. “As you can see, I’m pink.”
“Yeah, so I noticed,” said the FG. “So? What color would you like to be?”
“I’d like to be gray, like the rest of the elephants” he replied.
“No sooner said than done” said the FG. She began to maniacally wave her magic wand again, in mysterious patterns.
With a *** FLASH *** and a *** POOF ***... the elephant turned gray.
“Thank you, Fairy Godmother” said the elephant, greatly delighted.
Then... he looked underneath.
“Holy crap”, the elephant exclaimed. “Fairy Godmother... my pecker is STILL PINK.”
“Sorry, Elephant” she said, sadly. “I don’t do peckers.”
“No way” said the elephant. “I’m going to look ridiculous, gallumphing around with this big pink pecker dangling there. What am I gonna do?”
“Go see the Wizard of Oz” said the FG. “He does peckers. He’ll fix you right up.”
“Oh... OK” said the elephant. “That sounds like a plan... but I don’t know where he is. How do I get there?”
“Easy” said the Fairy Godmother. “Just follow the yellow prick toad.”
Posted by: blf | July 14, 2009 1:57 PM
It'd depend on whether or not I thought I could stand the woo-woo (and the woo-woos), or get away with giggling or criticising the woo-woo, but 75USD for a(? several?) fine meals just might tempt me…
Assuming, of course, it doesn't impinge on my valuable frog-worshipping time, and that I can take my pet Cave Troll. (The Balrog is bit awkward to transport.) Roast babies on the menu would be the clincher…
Posted by: Desert Son
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July 14, 2009 2:01 PM
Especially if he's as large as has been "postulated." Nine, maybe eleven, feet tall, and easily weighing over 500 pounds, as a biped? Talk about back pain!
Sad to see frog worship getting short shrift. They see batrachian, they be hatin' . . .
. . . anti-anura . . . ? . . .
. . . selective seclusion of salientia?
Sorry.
I'll stop.
No kings,
Robert
Posted by: SEF | July 14, 2009 2:01 PM
When comparing frog worship with zombi-Jesus etc worship, it's important to remember that at least frogs are real. It's still rather hard to determine what they want though. And I haven't spotted the frogs offering any of the typical (albeit imaginary) fringe benefits that popular religions do.
In their favour, frogs are rather adorable critters and also are nowhere near as allergenic as the cats which many people give the appearance of worshipping (building them special doors, catering to their every whim etc). I can and do keep "pet" frogs. Sometimes they even seem to consider me to be an honorary frog.
Posted by: Alverant | July 14, 2009 2:03 PM
I don't see how they can exclude paganism. Paganism isn't a specific religion, it's all the "old" religions wrapped up under one label. It includes all the ancient pantheons like the ones Zeus and Odin ruled. Paganism is the basis for modern New Agers. I guess it's like how xity tries to exclude judiasm.
I don't think we should be too hard on the New Agers. They don't have the record for trying to force other people to conform to their beliefs (not saying it doesn't happen, just far less often as in christianity or islam). Plus, they have very relaxing music.
Posted by: Sastra
|
July 14, 2009 2:03 PM
As usual, they're confusing different concepts of what it means to be 'tolerant' -- and mixing up political and social tolerance with epistemic tolerance.
It's not enough to allow people to have their views, and talk about them. You have to make it "safe" to do so. Saying that someone else is wrong is a form of oppression and repression. Because you're using the language of exclusion, that's what you're doing. It's just like throwing people out of the room, or shutting them up.
Instead, you must "accept all beliefs" -- which they take literally. Everyone is right, because we all have our own truths. Anything else means you're not respectful of diversity. If you won't let them speak unhindered, that means you're not letting them speak at all. If you want to change their mind on religion, that means you think they're bad people if they don't.
Nobody should ever have to defend a religious belief: it's like a free zone. Apparently, whether or not something is true doesn't matter. Getting along matters. Period. Even if you end up nodding your head to opposite, mutually-exclusive concepts, you happily pay that price. The cost of disagreement is too high: if they have to defend themselves, that means it's only fair that you'd have to defend yourself. No more free zone. Or free ride.
And it's not just New Agers. This is the same kind of thinking which comes out of religious liberals and moderates. You can't tell anyone that their religious beliefs are not true. You just can't. If you do that, you're a close-minded bigot.
Thus, they gladly lump the so-called New Atheists in with the fundamentalist religious right. The Bad Guys tell people that they're wrong. The Good Guys think all beliefs are acceptable. Which can magically morph into epistemic equivalence with very little effort.
Ok, here we're in agreement. The disagreement is over whether the similarity makes New Age respectable, or whether it means mainstream religions should lose some of their respectability.
I certainly can. Traditional chiropractic is based on vitalism, and manipulating mysterious life energy forces which cannot be measured by science. Like Bigfoot, there's a supposed to be a conspiracy of willfully blind, close-minded scientists who are "afraid" to think outside the box, and accept the testimony of people who know, because they've seen it for themselves.
Posted by: AJ Milne | July 14, 2009 2:06 PM
Well, y'know... He feels things deeply, see... Totally in touch with the universe, that kinda guy. Cares about her orgasm more than his own... Or at least makes sure she has one sometime during the evening... And occasionally feels like, wow, I'm so much a part of something so much bigger when just a bit lightheaded after a few too many fermented raspberries...
And he's not into organized religion. Too constricting... Plus they called him an abomination. Or abominable... Anyway, it wasn't very nice...
So sure. He's 'spiritual'. Which, loosely defined, means: roughly as annoying as a Mormon or a recent convert to Amwayism at dinner parties.
Posted by: Jamie | July 14, 2009 2:07 PM
#4 "I love the fights between groundless beliefs."
Earlier this year I was visiting my dad's grave with family for Qing Ming (Chinese "Grave cleaning" holiday) and my cousin put some food on the grass in front of the grave for the ghost/spirit to "eat." My mom then argued that it was unnecessary to put it there since the ghost/spirit could get to the food on its own.
Posted by: Jared | July 14, 2009 2:07 PM
"Even worshipping a frog is sort of OK"
The Great God Acris crepitans will surely smite thee! The minor deity family, the Dendrobatidae shall descend upon you to devour your soul!
Posted by: debaser71 | July 14, 2009 2:08 PM
It's because channelling and paganism scares away certain types of christians and other religious folk. It's simply an economic decision.
Posted by: Sebastian | July 14, 2009 2:11 PM
I consider myself a rational sceptic atheist, however I shop whenever possible organic products and Fair Trade products, because I think it is worth the cause to support natural agriculture.
There however is no spiritual or supernatural component to either of these, so I'm a bit WTF why they are mentioned in the article.
Posted by: Kim | July 14, 2009 2:17 PM
Yeah, I am burned out by the bickering of the Evangelical atheists who think they own The Truth (tm).
Posted by: Sastra
|
July 14, 2009 2:17 PM
Jadehawk #49 wrote:
If you look at the original article, the mean-guy editor doesn't want to exclude paganism because it's offensive or wrong. Instead, it's because
"it is a complete niche by itself."
Evidently, he thinks it deserves its own magazine.
Problem is, as others have pointed out, "paganism" is such a broad, loose category it's hard to say how he thinks he's kicking it out by continuing to deal with the rest of the crap. Those who "follow the fairy faith" would be pagans.
As for Bigfoot, there are some "theories" out there that Bigfoot comes from another dimension, or is a spiritual being, and this is why we cannot catch him. One of the speakers at TAM was Joe Nickel, who spoke on Bigfoot. I'm pretty sure he mentioned that.
(I've been away for a week at the Randi convention. PZ should have been there again, he missed another good one. At least Orac finally showed up...)
Posted by: Glenn | July 14, 2009 2:18 PM
Well, silly, you can't just worship any frog. We are awaiting the appearance of the Frog Messiah. He will be known by his ability to jump out of a pan of slowly-heated water before it boils.
Posted by: David | July 14, 2009 2:19 PM
exclude the fringes. absolutely. start by defining criteria you'd use to disqualify a group. Hopefully the criteria will be objective, fair, and unambiguous, otherwise it's a restraint of trade lawsuit.
this I've gotta see.
Posted by: DavidWillB | July 14, 2009 2:21 PM
The only people I feel sorry for on that list are the organic farmers. At least there are cases to be made about chemical vs living pest control and against monocrops.
Also, did anyone else find it humorous that frogs were the only other things on the list with proof of existence and frog worshipers were looked down upon more than the fairy followers, the palm peroraters, the big foot fetishists or the god botherers?
Posted by: tsig | July 14, 2009 2:27 PM
The only proper way to worship your god is to consume him.
Hence the popular Catholic statement " If you meat Jesus along the road, eat him."
Properly floured and fried in hot oil, frog legs are truly the "Flesh of God."
Posted by: blf | July 14, 2009 2:29 PM
One word: Lid.
Posted by: xebecs | July 14, 2009 2:33 PM
Thank Kermit! I can finally come out of the closet with my adoration of His Greenness! May His Lily Pad Float Placidly.
Posted by: Sean | July 14, 2009 2:33 PM
Of course, if you really WANT to combine Organically grown food with Magic Pixie dust you Can: Its called biodynamic farming
What a shiny brave new world we live in!
-Sean
Posted by: Sarcastro | July 14, 2009 2:35 PM
It includes all the ancient pantheons like the ones Zeus and Odin ruled.
No. No it doesn't. If you don't kill and hang one of every animal you can find - including humans - from a tree once a year you aren't worshipping Odin. PERIOD.
Posted by: Eamon Knight | July 14, 2009 2:36 PM
The trouble with organic agro is that it shades over into "biodynamic" woo. The former an argument about the costs vs. benefits (and the appropriate timeframe) of various methods of agriculture, and subject to empirical testing. The latter.....is bullshit.
Posted by: Becky | July 14, 2009 2:37 PM
OK, McGee said. "There is nothing we would exclude. We are about goodwill to men."
Why just goodwill to men? What about goodwill to women?
What do frogs and bigfoot have to do with goodwill?
I just ask questions.......
I have to admit I am a tad jealous of these new age pseudo science people, I wish I could take that kind of advantage of the gullible.
Posted by: tsg | July 14, 2009 2:37 PM
They spelled it wrong. It's "newage", rhymes with "sewage" and stands for "no belief too loony".
But, yeah, she's spot on. If you're going to allow belief in some silly shit, you have to believe in all that silly shit. To do otherwise would require some procedure, or possibly a method, to determine which ones were silly and which weren't.
Posted by: Jack
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July 14, 2009 2:41 PM
Frog worship? Sacrilege! All hail mighty TSATHOGGUA!
I really am a hell of a Clark Ashton Smith fan.
Posted by: E.V.. | July 14, 2009 2:45 PM
I've got a great source for frog legs. I just want to know if anyone has a trick to get rid of the formaldehyde smell?
Posted by: Thoughtful Guy | July 14, 2009 2:46 PM
These are just regular people with jobs, families, etc. Put aside their beliefs and you might actually find them likable. Some can offer insight that you might have not thought of. The vast majority of them aren't out to ripoff the gullible. They just use it as a way to socialize with like minded people. From what I tell, it's mostly harmless.
Posted by: E.V.. | July 14, 2009 2:51 PM
Thoughtful Guy is concerned you're too rough on the New Agers...
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
July 14, 2009 2:55 PM
Thoughtful guy is probably one of them. He presents absolutely no evidence of how the "insights" are of any use to a rational person. Typical vague wooness to his statements.
Posted by: Thoughtful Guy | July 14, 2009 2:58 PM
I really don't care how snarky PZ is. It has become his stock and trade. More power to him...
My point was that there is little to worry about. It's not like the New Age people are out to get the New Atheists. Most of them would probably have a good laugh at PZ's blog posts. It barely registers, if at all, in their minds. They probably consider it to be little consequence.
Posted by: phantomreader42 | July 14, 2009 3:01 PM
Mobius @ #30:
Well SOMEONE has to tamp down the path for everyone else to follow! :P
Posted by: Sastra
|
July 14, 2009 3:07 PM
Thoughtful Guy #78 wrote:
Of course. I hope you're not making the same mistake New Agers tend to make, equating the person with the belief.
Sure, but not I think in the specific matter of the woo itself. Only in the murky areas where their supernatural beliefs can be taken as metaphors or vehicles for other, more reasonable beliefs.
Not intentionally, no. The problem isn't their motivation, or their attitude. It's that their methods are dishonest, and the dishonesty spills over into the practices they advocate, either personally or commercially.
I've slowly come to the conclusion that being nice and meaning well is over-rated. Not insignificant, but given too much emphasis. Among the woos, it's often the only thing they think really matters.
Posted by: Blondin | July 14, 2009 3:11 PM
Well, that's a relief. I wouldn't want to give up my magic crockoshite.
Posted by: DoxieVee
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July 14, 2009 3:13 PM
Hmm. I wonder if Mr Miejan would accept my dissertation on the operation, shape and colour of the wings of the Lesser Spotted Pixie? A distinguished friend of mine also did a wonderful companion piece on the relation of Faerie wings to the quantum spirit world, and the elusiveness of the Faerie Queen in this realm (occasionally known as the "Titania Hypothesis"), as she has remained undetected by even the most qualified cryptobiologists.
Posted by: Blondin | July 14, 2009 3:15 PM
Puck that!
Posted by: DoxieVee
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July 14, 2009 3:20 PM
It's not my fault you can't Bottom on to the truth.
Posted by: Ariel | July 14, 2009 3:21 PM
I was surprised to see organic and fair trade farming fall under New Age. I just heard this Skeptoid podcast by Brian Dunning where he basically says that organic farming is in no way better then modern farming. If anyone has heard it I would be interested to hear your thoughts. I don't remember it exactly but it basically says that organic farming is just as big industry as regular farming, that modern pesticides and herbicides aren't any worse for us than what organic farmers use, it's not eco-friendly because we have to use more space to get less crops, etc. etc.
He seems to do his homework, so now I'm partly convinced that we're all gullible idiots paying more for organic produce for no good reason.
Posted by: Lynna | July 14, 2009 3:22 PM
The Head Honchos of the Transcendental Meditation movement tell their followers that there may be other ways to enlightenment, but TM is the jet plane and everything else is the slow train. They also warn against reading texts from other gurus (may slow your progress or confuse you), and they warn even more strongly against following other gurus.
For those at the higher levels in the hierarchy, it's one way only, and that's the TM way for meditation, but adjunct practices like ayurvedic medicine are approved (and sold). Interestingly enough, the seekers who practice TM are likely to also to buy crystals and gemstones processed to enhance spiritual or physical aspects of the individual.
You can create a huge business around a movement like TM.
Posted by: tsg | July 14, 2009 3:27 PM
Non-sequitor. It's only the beliefs that are being criticized.
Posted by: Lynna | July 14, 2009 3:28 PM
Big Foot is a fairy, didn't you know?
Posted by: Christophe Thill | July 14, 2009 3:33 PM
What would frog worship be called, if we want a fancy word ? Batracholatry ?
Personnally I don't think it's ok. I mean, the cephalopodian demon-gods from outer space wouldn't take it kindly.
Posted by: Azkyroth | July 14, 2009 3:39 PM
I don't mind bickering between the pro-science forces so much, but the anti-assertiveness crusaders masquerading as pro-science are starting to get to me.
I'm pretty sure he'd be considered a bear.
Posted by: DoxieVee
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July 14, 2009 3:39 PM
Whatever you do, don't say that to his face.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 14, 2009 3:53 PM
Thoughtful Guy (@78):
Since I think I was one of the first in this thread to talk about the fleecing of the gullible, I'll respond to this:
If you're talking, as the rest of your comment seems to suggest, about the believers/followers of New Age woo, I'd tend to agree to this extent: They aren't "out to rip off the gullible"; they are the gullible.
OTOH, I can't help but believe that the people selling New Age goods and services — i.e., the subscribers to New Age Retailer magazine and their fellows — mostly are ripoff artists. If the crystals and pyramids and other "magickal" nostrums they sell had any actual effect, the people selling them surely would've seen dramatic evidence of cures and life changes; conversely, having sold "magick" for years or decades without ever observing any magic, these hucksters must know it's all BS. I suppose it's possible to imagine a tiny percentage who are so self-delusional that they believe their own rap, but to me, Occam's razor suggests that the vast majority must be knowing frauds.
One possible exception might be in the area of chiropractic, Reiki, and other hands-on "healing" woo: Strip away all the mystical trappings and/or unsupported claims from those "disciplines," and what you have left is essentially some form of physical therapy or massage. Since the practitioners are doing something — and the clients are feeling something — physical, it's probably somewhat easier for them to fool themselves into thinking something real (beyond just a nice massage, I mean) is happening. Even here, though, I suspect most practitioners know their most extravagant claims are fraudulent, even if they believe they're doing some good.
As for the "marks," I think it's important to distinguish between New Age worship and New Age healing/life-improvement schemes. If you want to take off your clothes and dance around a bonfire praising the Goddess, I've got no problem with that. It's silly, but no sillier (and arguably more fun) than any sort of mainstream church service.
OTOH, the phony fixes offered by New Age hucksters for physical, mental, emotional, and social problems have a real social cost, in that they crowd out other, more rational, approaches that might actually address these issues constructively. In this case, it's not only the gullible believers who are victims, but also their neighbors, family, friends, coworkers, business associates, students, etc.... all the people with whose lives their own are intertwined, and who are affected by their troubles.
With Donne, I believe that "[n]o man is an island, entire of itself"; the scamming of my neighbors "diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind," and thus it is my business.
Posted by: Lynna | July 14, 2009 3:54 PM
Fairies come in all sizes. Bigfoot and his fellow big-ass fairies have formed a self-help group to restore their self-esteem.
They are also planning a trip to Temple Square in Salt Lake City, where they plan to kiss all the security guards.
Posted by: Lynna | July 14, 2009 3:58 PM
BTW, Bigfoot can carry one helluva lot of fairy dust. Be careful what you ask for when you're around him. If he dumps a load of Bigfoot Fairy Dust on you there's danger of suffocation.
He means well, though, so give the big guy a break. All these folks doubting his existence have his hair (fur?) standing on end. Either that or he's been testing the electrical sockets with his tongue again.
Posted by: tom c | July 14, 2009 3:59 PM
Are Unicorns in or out? Because if they are out I'm going to have to redecorate my entire bedroom.
Posted by: Lynna | July 14, 2009 4:03 PM
Tom @98, your bedroom sounds lovely. I'll send Bigfoot over for a sleepover.
Speaking of pagan gods, our Submission Timeout Overlord has feelings and preferences:
Posted by: PaulC | July 14, 2009 4:30 PM
Of course bigfoot is on a spiritual path. The parts where there is only one set of big footprints is where he carried me.
Posted by: william e emba | July 14, 2009 5:04 PM
In India, 99% of what Western visitors see about Hindu religiosity is deliberately fake, because we've been trained for a century now to expect this fakery.
You go deep into darkest Africa, you'll find perhaps two books in your tiny little village. Somebody's Bible, and somebody's African art catalog. You've got to make that 100% authentic native African art that looks like 100% authentic native African art, or nobody will buy it.
Heck, even our US Mafia took careful notes on The Godfather. Puzo and Hollywood made it all up, but it was way too convincing.
Posted by: PaulC | July 14, 2009 5:05 PM
BTW, I am astonished that nobody came up with this connection:
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/blog/chiropractic-bigfoot-returns/
Chiropractic Bigfoot Returns
April 4, 2008
Back in 2001, Chiropractor Tom Payne had a 400 lb, eight-foot-tall Bigfoot, which he named “Sasquatch Sam,” carved out of a tree. It had bicycle-reflector eyes and acted as a signpost for the narrow driveway that led to Payne’s clinic in Federal Way, Washington. The town was stunned one morning in January 2006 to find that the Bigfoot had vanished. Two local teens later confessed to its theft, and to sawing off Bigfoot’s big feet in an attempt to hide the body.
Posted by: NoGurus | July 14, 2009 5:21 PM
It is clear that Ms. McGee's "goodwill towards man" extends only as far as her business interests are concerned. Why rule out bigfoot trinkets, pixie dust, tooth fair statues or anything else that brings in the green? Her "goodwill" is about as thin as a dollar bill, and her intolerance of anyone who would disagree is, to be kind, ironic. How much more pleasant it would be if she just told the truth and said the magazine could cost her business?
Speaking of goodwill (non-sequiter), thanks for the Carl Saqan post. I hope more of the New Atheists follow his example of a classy, non-angry atheist who truly showed goodwill and compassion to his fellow man, without compromising the truth or integrity of his message. I don't find being an atheist makes me angry at all, and I try my best to have compassion for the foibles, superstition, and wackiness of others. It's the old cliche about flies being easier to catch with honey than vinegar, but Sagan and Mark Twain were my atheist heroes, and I find them much more persuasive because of their compassion and humor.
Posted by: Otto | July 14, 2009 5:36 PM
Long time ago a friend owned the New Moon bookstore in Minneapolis and let me have a room for an office (programming for embedded controllers). So I met a lot of astrologers and let me tell you, astrology works!
Every time some significant event happened, private or public, the astrologers would cast their charts and concluded that it had to happen just the way it did.
The postdictive power of astrology is awesome!
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | July 14, 2009 5:44 PM
Sebastian writes:
natural agriculture.
There's some mighty fine woo woo right there. Agriculture is anything but "natural."
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | July 14, 2009 5:58 PM
tsg writes:
It's only the beliefs that are being criticized.
Speak for yourself. I laugh at new age idiots just like I laugh at christians, buddhists, jews, and other dumb creotards. UFOs and bigfoot aren't any more or less stupid than jesus or allah and - as we've seen with alternative medicine - belief in generalized woo-woo can be a public health issue or can result in death (by trying to heal real problems with fake medicine) or torture (i.e: chelation therapy on kids). Dumbass belief systems are dumbass belief systems and, yes, they deserve criticism.
Also: fuck the political correctness that says "criticize the idea, not the person." Ideas are a "lifestyle choice" on the part of their hosts. More often than not, their hosts spread the ideas, too. People hosting dumbass ideas are facilitating their survival and spread and are as worthy of contempt as the ideas themselves. That's if you ascribe to the (practically woo-woo) notion that ideas are "memes" Another way of looking at ideas is that they're something that people have, accept, and nurture - which would give them direct responsibility for their ideas and earn them a healthy dose of contempt.
Posted by: Aphrodine | July 14, 2009 6:02 PM
@Alyson #25:
Housecats already demand that their human slaves worship them.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself
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July 14, 2009 6:04 PM
I, for one, sort of welcome our froggy Bigfoot overlords.
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | July 14, 2009 6:16 PM
one psychic also joyfully reports that the poor economy is helping her business.
I bet it did! Presumably, it foresaw the stock market meltdown and had leveraged short positions on Citibank.
I'd only go to a psychic who was a multibillionaire. But, strangely, there aren't any. I guess the pope qualifies, but the last one couldn't even predict when someone was going to pop a cap in him so I'm a bit skeptical of his infallibility...
Posted by: sailor | July 14, 2009 6:29 PM
"Wait a minute…worshipping a frog is sort of OK? Only "sort of"? I am offended. Why is she belittling the faith of frog-worshippers all around the world?"
Well, I think you can now sue her for blasphemy in Ireland.
Posted by: Zar | July 14, 2009 6:37 PM
Bigfoot is a perfectly reasonable object of worship. He has lots in common with the major gods, including a fondness for sexual assault.
Posted by: Aquaria | July 14, 2009 6:53 PM
Most of them would probably have a good laugh at PZ's blog posts.
I wouldn't count on that. Science is water to Dorothy's New Age Witch.
It barely registers, if at all, in their minds
:::Snicker:::
It's really dangerous to mention registering and minds about newage spewers.
Too easy!
Posted by: Krystalline Apostate | July 14, 2009 7:18 PM
Uh-oh, are we going to have Froggergate now? (Happen to like frog's legs, & NO, they don't taste like chicken.) Jack @ 76: & for those of you who find Tsathoggua a little too intimidating, there's his more sedate distant cousin for worship as well. Though I don't know what the scriptures say about licking him.Posted by: Forrest | July 14, 2009 8:11 PM
Wait, this isn't copied from the Onion?
Posted by: Kagato
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July 14, 2009 8:23 PM
This is the thing I've never been able to get my head around when it comes to "New Age" shops.
They all seem to sell every variety of woo accessory imaginable -- crystals, tarot cards, candles, dream-catchers, 3-wolf-moon t-shirts...
Why do you never find someone who swears by crystals, but thinks tarot cards are just a bunch of hooey?
Someone once suggested that it's because "they're all different aspects of the same thing, tapping into life energy" or some crap; but that's a massive copout. In that case, why are these specific (but wildly different) things valid resources? Surely if that were true, you should be able to tap into those "energies" pretty much any way you like?
Of course, then the whole "New Age" culture would kind of collapse on itself as its talismans lost their relevance...
Posted by: Forrest | July 14, 2009 8:27 PM
Wait, this isn't copied from the Onion?
Posted by: NickG
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July 14, 2009 9:11 PM
Speaking as an actual fairy who is also a tree hugging dirt worshipper (or so I've been called).... I don't mind the frog worshippers or the bigfoot fetishists but if you associate me with a chiroquackter we're gonna have issues.
Posted by: NickG
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July 14, 2009 9:12 PM
Speaking as an actual fairy who is also a tree hugging dirt worshipper (or so I've been called).... I don't mind the frog worshippers or the bigfoot fetishists but if you associate me with a chiroquackter we're gonna have issues.
Posted by: ThirtyFiveUp | July 14, 2009 9:47 PM
#52
“Just follow the yellow prick toad.”
Good one.
Posted by: Peter Sim | July 14, 2009 10:23 PM
"That New Age connection should not be made. I cannot see how anyone can put chiropractic care and Bigfoot together." To which I can only reply, well, what if Bigfoot has an aching back, huh? He's bipedal, he's probably got the same difficulties we do.
PZ just keeps on cracking me up! I love it! Keep up the excellent work while keeping me very entertained and informed :)
Posted by: Happy Tentacles
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July 15, 2009 3:11 AM
But will the frog-worshippers denounce the toad-worshippers as heretics?
BTW, do they have a special ritual that changes a cracker into a delicious plate of frogs' legs in garlic sauce, so that they might eat the flesh of their zombie-froggy god? (I feel hungry all of a sudden . . .)
Posted by: Ed Darrell | July 15, 2009 4:59 AM
And, think of the poor frogs! How do they feel?
Posted by: bull of the woods | July 15, 2009 10:33 AM
Mmmmm. Frog legs wrapped in bacon. Yummy!
Posted by: Kevin (NYC) | July 15, 2009 12:54 PM
"BTW, do they have a special ritual that changes a cracker into a delicious plate of frogs' legs in garlic sauce..."
sort of.. they have a piece of plastic that, combined with a French Resturant, forces slaves to bring plates of legs to your table.
and I am shocked that the FSM is bing mixed up with Pagans and Big-foot worshippers. FSM is very scientific and has a graph and everything.
Posted by: Andreas Johansson | July 15, 2009 3:37 PM
Huh? Goodwill to men would seem to imply excluding woo woo intended to hurt or kill men.Posted by: ursa major | July 15, 2009 5:37 PM
Don't laugh, but warp drive is powered by combining Fairies with Anti-Fairies.