…and this is a 
Orthodox Jews are rioting in Jerusalem. The reason: because the city allows a parking lot to remain open on Saturday, which means people are able to drive on their holy day, which they consider sacred. Anne Barker was there to record the event as a journalist, and she switched on her recorder to document it all — when the protesters turned on her.
I found myself herded against a brick wall as they kept on spitting - on my face, my hair, my clothes, my arms.
It was like rain, coming at me from all directions - hitting my recorder, my bag, my shoes, even my glasses.
Big gobs of spit landed on me like heavy raindrops. I could even smell it as it fell on my face.
Somewhere behind me - I didn't see him - a man on a stairway either kicked me in the head or knocked something heavy against me.
I wasn't even sure why the mob was angry with me. Was it because I was a journalist? Or a woman? Because I wasn't Jewish in an Orthodox area? Was I not dressed conservatively enough?
In fact, I was later told, it was because using a tape-recorder is itself a desecration of the Shabbat even though I'm not Jewish and don't observe the Sabbath.
This is something too many religious people fail to understand — you can practice your religion, other people can practice their religion, but you don't get to tell other people that they must practice your religion. If your crazy superstition says you aren't allowed to push a button on a certain day of the week, then don't. If your old myths claim that your god turns into a cracker when the right ritual is carried out, go ahead and believe that. If your dogma dictates that you should visit a certain magic rock before you die, then go ahead, make your pilgrimage.
But excuse us, everyone who doesn't have these wacky ideas has a perfect right to push the button, disrespect your cracker, or stay home and skip the crowds…and we also have the right to point and laugh at you. And if you are so intolerant, so irrational, and so vicious as to try and impose your foolishness on others, especially in such disgusting ways, then we have an obligation to use civic law and the power of the state to protect those others' liberties.
Unfortunately, some states become so entangled in the religious absurdities of a segment of their society that they lose the ability to protect every citizen's rights. That's happening in Israel, and it's happening to a lesser degree here in the US.
Politics
Comments
Posted by: Canuck | July 7, 2009 8:00 AM
Ugh, that's a disgusting picture. Spitting hordes in top hats and ringlets. Religion - poison for the mind.
Posted by: Mark N | July 7, 2009 8:07 AM
An idle thought... A taser would both allow you to defend yourself, and increase the offence they take. Perfect.
Posted by: MrFire | July 7, 2009 8:16 AM
Damn straight.
Posted by: Elwood Herring | July 7, 2009 8:17 AM
Well said. And they wonder why atheists get angry.
This message needs to be shouted from the rooftops. "I respect your right to practice your religion, but you must respect my right to ignore it, criticise it and even ridicule it."
Posted by: Chen, Israel | July 7, 2009 8:17 AM
The funny thing in all of this is that they were desecrating the sabbath themselves during the riots. This has been going on every saturday for a few weeks now :\
Posted by: Kryth | July 7, 2009 8:19 AM
Tsr?
I'm thnkng flmthrwr. Gv thr gd bg ld brnt ffrng.
Posted by: Chen, Israel | July 7, 2009 8:20 AM
The funny thing in all of this is that they were desecrating the sabbath themselves during the riots. This has been going on every saturday for a few weeks now :\
Posted by: MadScientist | July 7, 2009 8:24 AM
Maybe they're rioting because they feel inadequate since their foreskins have been lopped off. I think the rabbis got the wrong end and performed lobotomies instead. Well, those are the loonies that the Palestinians are forced to endure; there are equally nasty loonies on the Palestinian side too of course. Now if only the loony groups can be put together in a remote part of the desert to have a loony love-in, life might be so much better for the rest of the community.
Posted by: Ten Bears | July 7, 2009 8:25 AM
Flmthrwr? Bttr stll, nk th bstrds. Rt f ll vl.
Posted by: Jamie | July 7, 2009 8:26 AM
With the introduction of blasphemous libel in Ireland I wouldn't be too surprised if religious people over here started behaving like they had a god given right to be pricks too.
Posted by: Kevin Anthoney | July 7, 2009 8:26 AM
I suppose it makes sense from their point of view, given their god's appallingly bad aim. He could easily take out the entire district with one smite!
Posted by: PZ Myers
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July 7, 2009 8:28 AM
No, we are NOT going to start advocating reciprocal violence. We have a framework for dealing with aberrant and destructive behavior in society: it's a principle called the law. Unfortunately, religion seems to be one of those sneaky lies that subverts the enforcement of the law, but that does not mean we should propose ignoring the law ourselves.
Posted by: Andy Groves | July 7, 2009 8:28 AM
#6,#8, #9: Stay classy, guys.....
Posted by: Ash, Israel | July 7, 2009 8:30 AM
First of all, Chen is of course right. Second, there's another level to it - their problem is with the MUNICIPALITY opening the parking lot, and the fact that it's in a predominantly orthodox area. They claim the riots are not about observation of the Shabbat per se, but the expectation that the authorities won't engage in activities which collide with their sensibilities. It's a very long debate in Israel, dating back to the early 1950s. On top of that all, journalists familiar with the orthodox society claim that, like many other such riots around the world, a great deal of the motivations are hidden and have very little to do with the act that is protested against, and more to do with internal affairs and underlying currents within the orthodox society. Nevertheless, the "social moratorium" approach the authorities are taking in these riots is infuriating.
Posted by: PZ Myers
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July 7, 2009 8:33 AM
Any other comments that promote violence will be disemvoweled.
I've also noticed a curious phenomenon. I point out the stupidity of Christianity often enough, but whenever I mention the stupidity of Judaism, all of a sudden the hate talk about harming and killing people goes way up. Why is that?
Posted by: Jamie (again) | July 7, 2009 8:35 AM
Read the story in full and could barely contain my laughter when I read this:
"They might be supremely religious, but their behaviour - to me - was far from charitable or benevolent."
Posted by: Zeno | July 7, 2009 8:38 AM
Spitting and screaming and hitting reporters?
That doesn't sound to me like treating the Sabbath as a day of rest. Round them all up as heretics!
Posted by: John Morales | July 7, 2009 8:39 AM
PZ,
Isn't there a specific word for that attitude?
Ah, yes: antisemitism.
Sigh.
Posted by: speedwell | July 7, 2009 8:41 AM
PZ @ #15: whenever I mention the stupidity of Judaism, all of a sudden the hate talk about harming and killing people goes way up. Why is that?
Basically for the same reason Pol Pot killed off folks wearing glasses.
Posted by: Freidenker | July 7, 2009 8:42 AM
I'm on TV!!!!!!!
I find it really honoring that local news from here get to Pharyngula. First of all - the riots have been going on for yonks. Let's make some important clarifications (PZ probably doesn't know much about Haredim, or "ultra-orthodox Jews", and I would have gladly traded that ignorance with him)
First, as I said, it's "ultra-orthodox", since "orthodox Jews" are peanut butter and jam compared to these complete nutjobs. Seriously, Haredim are *INSANE*. I used to work in Jerusalem. The whole city is filled with their "Pashkavals" - printed notices of "important matters" brought out by Haredi rabbis. I'll translate it for you
EVIL, IGNORANT SHIT
The secular population in Jerusalem are desperate for some religion freedom - unlike other Israeli cities, Jerusalem has an enormous Haredi population (which tend to congregate mostly at Jerusalem and Bnei-Brak, but not only).
The reason we give so much credence to these parasites is the fact that they breed like maggots. They are exempt by law to join the IDF (a mandatory service that even I had to painfully had to lose 3 years of my life for). The official statement as to why they're exempt of military service can be translated into English as being "The Torah is their craft".
Well, I'm a biology undregrad, it beats the Torah every day, and I had to bust up my ass for 3 years and serve an army that does the most atrocious evil shit - not just to Palestinians, but also to Israeli soldiers.
They get subsidiaries from the government because they pop up dozens of children - they're part of the Judo-fascist demographic solution to "The Arab Problem" (funny that, that us Jews would use a term like that. But we do).
Thanks, PZ - for bringing this up to the Pharyngulite public.
Posted by: Wowbagger, OM | July 7, 2009 8:42 AM
Assholes. How is it that kicking the crap out of a defenseless journalist isn't breaking the Shabbat restrictions?
Posted by: Somnolent Aphid | July 7, 2009 8:42 AM
PZ it's your very own attitude that is keeping you off of turkish reality shows, if only you could be a little more open minded and accepting of dogma. sigh. you really are a lost cause.
btw, those crackers go great with hummus. (but not with hamas)
i wonder what goes well with spit? the sad part is she could not even have used an umbrella in that situation, because it too would have been a desecration of the shabbat.
Posted by: Cuttlefish, OM | July 7, 2009 8:43 AM
The Sabbath is Holy, as everyone knows—
Not a day you can choose to do work—
By taking this video, don’t you suppose
It’s your fault the crowd goes berserk?
Showing deference toward our most solemn belief
Is respectful, and proper, and fitting;
Your punching a button, it causes us grief!
We’re properly, solemnly spitting!
If God has objections to what I can do
Then, by God, I’ll object to you, too!
Posted by: Kausik Datta | July 7, 2009 8:46 AM
PZ wrote:
Thank you for reiterating that.
In my former institution, the College of Medicine of a Jewish university in New York, the same thing used to happen. In all the protracted Jewish holidays, they could not stop non-Jewish grad students and postdocs from coming to work, but they would switch off all the food-, coffee- and soda-vending machines in the premises of both the College and the university-managed campus housing, for all those days.
On one of the days of the week (IIRC, Friday), the Jewish medical students living on campus would not touch anything electrical, so they would not go through the electronically operated glass sliding doors. At the College, the doors would be kept open; at the housing, a side glass door was constructed solely to give the Jewish students access to the building.
I had a young Jewish medical student who was doing a rotation in our lab prior to the start of medical school. It was the time of the last soccer world cup, and he was crazy about soccer. But if there was one or more games on Friday evening, he would keep asking me later about the details of the game - but would not switch on the TV himself.
All because of some edict a few thousand years back, when people knew nothing about electricity!!
Posted by: Mumon | July 7, 2009 8:46 AM
So they're allowed to spit and kick on the Sabbath?
Posted by: Perkimer Stiles | July 7, 2009 8:47 AM
Media representatives often become targets of the
rioters' ire, no matter what the excuse for the
riot may have been. The spitting seems particularly
Old Testament, though.
Posted by: Tim Danaher | July 7, 2009 8:49 AM
It's like stoning people for driving cars on the sabbath: apparently driving a car is work, but throwing stones isn't.
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/shared/news/stories/2008/09/ISRAEL_RELIGIOUS14_PBP.html?cxntlid=inform_artr
(fifth paragraph: "Ultra-Orthodox men sometimes throw stones at passing cars on Saturdays or spit on women wearing tank tops or shorts who are bicycling through their neighborhoods.")
Actually, the way that they justified this, is that an engine contains sparkplugs, which violates the sabbath dictum of not lighting any fires.
If you want to see how far some of these two-fridgers are willing to take this idiocy, then the link below may be of some interest:
http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/06/17/strike-a-light-do-religious-zealots-get-any-barmier-than-this/
Posted by: cervantes
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July 7, 2009 8:52 AM
All religions are equally ridiculous, but some are more equally ridiculous than others.
Posted by: kitsunerei88 | July 7, 2009 8:53 AM
What I find most interesting is that these people expect everyone else to follow along with their religious rules regardless of the fact that a non-Jew can't just convert to become a Jew (or rather, the process is ridiculously long and every rabbi will deny your conversion request at least three times before they consider it). It seems to me that they expect others to follow their rules without gaining any of the (few, if any) benefits that come with it.
Posted by: Prudence | July 7, 2009 8:55 AM
Tragically, this is nothing new. Apologies for the blog-whoring, but a while ago, I wrote a piece about Jerusalem's ultra-Orthodox/Haredi extremism and an attack on an Orthodox American women being beaten by FOUR ultra-Orthodox men on her way to pray at the Wailing Wall, all for not moving to the back of the bus. On the off-chance anyone's interested: http://www.unattributable.com/2009/02/get-on-the-segregated-bus/
Posted by: Chris Davis
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July 7, 2009 8:56 AM
Feynman talked about how the orthodox Jews consider electrical activity forbidden on the Sabbath because switches may make tiny arcs, and these are classed as 'fire'.
I was in talk with an orthodox guy some years ago about making a contactless, 'fire free' lamp. Using LEDS and a Hall-effect switch. Dunno if there's money in it, but someone should try.
Posted by: Robin | July 7, 2009 8:59 AM
There's also an astonishing egotism in believing that if your witness someone else pushing the wrong button/desecrating the biscuit/saying Jehovah, it's your job to punish them for it. Can't God fight his own battles? Don't have a lot of faith in him, do they?
Posted by: Phoenix Woman | July 7, 2009 8:59 AM
Freidenker -- Thanks for pointing this out. The bitter irony is that Israel was created by secular Jews; in fact, the ultra-Orthodox of the 1930s and 1940s opposed its creation, as they maintained that only with the arrival of the Messiah, for whom they waited and still wait, could there be a re-established State of Israel. But of course, once it was a done deal, they strove to take it over and make it a little less sane and secular with each passing day.
Posted by: Victor | July 7, 2009 9:00 AM
It's not the religion, it's the totalitarian need for control that comes with it.
Posted by: Jason Dick | July 7, 2009 9:03 AM
Well, hey, at least they didn't stone her to death, as their holy book commands them. They've improved by some small amount over the millenia...
Posted by: photon | July 7, 2009 9:05 AM
So a bunch of fundamentalist Jews in Israel think that their magic book says that women who turn on a tape recorder should be spat on & kicked in the head. Perhaps someone should remind them that another group of fundamentalists think that THEIR magic book says that all Jews should be wiped from the face of the Earth - and that they are BOTH insanely wrong!
And then there's the Muslims...
`
Posted by: Ponder | July 7, 2009 9:11 AM
Ah, nice to see the devout doing the holy work of Gob.
Posted by: Elwood Herring | July 7, 2009 9:20 AM
I know I'm basically repeating what PZ said here, but I think it deserves emphasizing that this is exactly what Crackergate was all about. To all the critics of that infamous episode, do you get it now? What if that had been you in that crowd?
Religion - fiddle with it if you must, but don't wave it in MY face, and don't expect me to obey your silly rules.
Posted by: SEF | July 7, 2009 9:26 AM
By my standards, they don't actually have any sane elements. They merely have a gradation of members, some of whom are better at minimising and hiding the insanity of their various religious beliefs (including, of course, from themselves).
Posted by: John Morales | July 7, 2009 9:28 AM
Elwood @38, nice point! Can't be emphasised enough.
Posted by: Nils Ross | July 7, 2009 9:32 AM
Basal metabolic activity performs work on the Sabbath. Spitting increases the amount of work required to stay alive. => All religious people should cease metabolic activity, and not spit especially, on the Sabbath.
Incidentally, where in the Torah does it say anything about freaking tape recorders?
Posted by: Spud Boyle | July 7, 2009 9:32 AM
My concept of the universe allows them to believe
anything they like.
Their concept of the universe requires me to be
subservient to their sky-daddy.
The asymmetry is an automatic feature.
Posted by: Johannes9126 | July 7, 2009 9:34 AM
Zeno (# 17) beat me to it...
Posted by: tsg | July 7, 2009 9:35 AM
Freedom of religion necessitates freedom from religion: you can't be free to practice yours if you aren't free from practicing mine.
Posted by: tsg | July 7, 2009 9:39 AM
Totalitarian need for control is the sum total of what religion is.
Posted by: Josh
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July 7, 2009 9:43 AM
Wow. If there were ever a post that screamed out to be categorized under Kooks...
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | July 7, 2009 9:47 AM
Rioting on a holy day is kosher?
Oh, I get it: riots aren't work, they're fun!
And on the seventh day, Yahweh spat.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 7, 2009 9:56 AM
"Ah, nice to see the devout doing the holy work of Gob."
Excuse me, while GOB might not be the most sterling example of humanity, I'm pretty sure he's above spitting on journalists for violating petty religious laws. Particularly if he might have a chance of scoring with said woman.
Posted by: Tamr. Israel | July 7, 2009 10:10 AM
As was mentioned before, the real reason for the rioting is not the parking lot. It's mainly a power play - there was an ultra-ortodox mayor to Jerusalem, and now there is a new one - *secular* one. Some of the ultra-ortodox guys (and yes, ther's a big different between them and the "regular" ortodox, though both groups are far from being my cap of tea) feel the need to remind the new mayor who realy control the city...
Which, ofcourse, says nothing to justify their disgusting, violent behvior. I'm glad to say that, untypically, it seems that the secular segment of the city is ready for the fight this time.
Posted by: Dorothy Grasett | July 7, 2009 10:22 AM
I notice that there is a word for 'hatred' of jews or judeasm, but I don't know if there is a word for this same attitude for christians, buddists, hindu, agnostics and so forth. Since I rather like words, do you think that this forum might create the word(s) - a well constructed word is a meme - we might actually change the world - it is 'wrong' to be an antisemite - how would you say that it is wrong to be an anti anyone else different from you.
Posted by: Helene | July 7, 2009 10:25 AM
I read the article, I found it disturbing.
OK - so flicking on a light switch or driving a car is considered work and not allowed. It literally takes more work (remember basic physics?) to hurl garbage and diapers at someone and then cover them with spit and strike them. Not to mention the energy put into this hateful frenzy. So who really was violating the Sabath? Fundamentalism in any form is just plain bad.
Posted by: Jim Lippard | July 7, 2009 10:28 AM
It probably would have been OK if she had a special device that, by the press of a button, stopped not recording.
Posted by: ihedenius | July 7, 2009 10:30 AM
I've also noticed a curious phenomenon. I point out the stupidity of Christianity often enough, but whenever I mention the stupidity of Judaism, all of a sudden the hate talk about harming and killing people goes way up. Why is that?
>>
I have not noticed that. But the nature of a physical assault by a fanatic mob is different than for ex. a creationst writing something inane on a blog.
I may be wrong but I think the pharyngula reaction has been the same for muslim mobs doing similar things.
Posted by: daveau | July 7, 2009 10:33 AM
Chris Davis @31
Interesting idea, but the issue is moot. The Jews I know all use timers for everything. Keeps them within the letter of the rules. Like how the women are supposed to cover their heads, so they cover them with wigs.
Posted by: Jud | July 7, 2009 10:35 AM
This is a descent into weirdness, but -
I think maybe the attacks by the crowd weren't because they were angry she **wasn't** Jewish, but because they assumed she **was** Jewish but being insufficiently devout.
There is, after all, even among the Orthodox, a long tradition of the "Shabbas goy," non-Christians who would perform tasks such as lighting street lamps in Jewish sections of towns during the Sabbath when devout Jews themselves felt they were forbidden to do so.
Posted by: AlgaeGirl
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July 7, 2009 10:38 AM
Having only been there once, I'll share my limited knowledge of how this situation works in Jerusalem. When I was there on a school trip (called Birthright Israel: free to Jewish kids who've never been. Awesome trip even for the "secular jews") we found out that we were going to be spending shabbat in Jerusalem. Well, everyone was excited until we found out we'd probably be beaten in the street if we left the hotel on Saturday. The orthodox sections (it's not the whole city) of Jerusalem are filled with crazies who pelt cars and passersby with rocks and spit, as seen in another post. The reason they can get away with this and have it not be considered "work" is that in all the orthodox neighborhood there is a magical rope bordering all the neighborhoods, I forget what it's called. But this rope essentially extends the walls of your house so that as long as you are within a geographic area that is bordered by the rope you can do anything that you would do in your home; walk places, carry food or a child, any of the limited "work" tasks that it's ok to do on shabbat. The rope is up on the electric poles so you can't drive through it, but if you drive UNDER it and enter this area, FSM help you! It's absolutely ridiculous, but then again, so are most Jewish laws. But this is a sad bit of crazy in a land full of other, much more entertaining, crazy.
Posted by: Alyson Miers | July 7, 2009 10:39 AM
@50:
I don't like the term "anti-semitism." It presupposes an ethnic divide that's no longer the issue. I mean, Arabs are also Semitic people, but anti-semitism doesn't refer to hating Arabs. I prefer the term "Judeophobia."
For hating Christians, I'm not sure what the word would be. Christophobia sounds like it's about hating Jesus in particular, whereas Christianphobia is kind of awkward. The larger problem with creating equivalent terminology is that Christians wield such a gigantic amount of cultural and political power in the West that any disdain we heathens have for them isn't going to cause anything like the kind of damage that they are able to wreak--and have done, and continue to do--against us and anyone else who rubs them the wrong way. I mean, if America is really as Christian a nation as the rightwingnuts like to say it is, then what does it matter if a few foul-mouthed atheists don't think well of Christians?
I hope Anne Barker is okay; it sounds like that mob put her through the wringer. This is one of the ironies of theistic religion: you can say without a twinge of embarrassment that it's okay to pummel a woman using a tape recorder but it's bad to drive a car on a Saturday.
Posted by: tsg | July 7, 2009 10:40 AM
xenophobe
Posted by: AlgaeGirl
|
July 7, 2009 10:49 AM
I just want to clarify that I in no way support or agree with that the orthodox are doing. I just wanted to point out a little background so we could all laugh at their silly reasons behind their silly actions. Just makin' sure that's all clear.
Posted by: Israeli | July 7, 2009 10:53 AM
Secular Jews may be minority in Israeli schools by 2030
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4956
Help :(
Posted by: Tamar, Israel | July 7, 2009 10:54 AM
To Jud@55, who suggested the attacks were because the crowd thought she *was* Jewish: you probably right. Unlike Christianity, the Jewish religion is not missionary - people who are not Jewish are considered by the ultra-ortodox as simply none of their business. Other Jews, however, that do not share their beliefs are fair targets, and many of them will try to convert us in any way, or at very list, try to make us obey the religious rules even without believing in them.
Obviously that causes trouble... The tide is going our way, though: there are more shops, restaurents etc. which are open on the Shabbat, more non-kosher food, and Tel-Aviv especialy is a very open, secular city. As for Jerusalem... well, I never liked this city anyway.
Posted by: Mark N | July 7, 2009 10:55 AM
#56 - it's called an Eruv. Only one of many insane ways Orthodox Jews get around God's laws. One of my favourites is the elevator which continually stops at every floor on a building so that no-one need call it by pressing a button. Probably keeps the building warm as well; all that wasted electricity.
Posted by: Lynna | July 7, 2009 11:13 AM
A.C. Grayling wrote an article for the Guardian that addresses this problem nicely. He doesn't advocate violence, and he does offer a solution. Richard Dawkins featured the article in his "Recent News" section, so you can read the article and some comments there, or for the full article go to http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/01/religion-euthanasia
Here's an excerpt:
And the Mormons can bloody well let me drink coffee at public functions.
Posted by: FishyFred | July 7, 2009 11:28 AM
I was at this riot. I didn't witness Anne Barker being attacked, but two lady friends of mine showed up dressed to go out (i.e. in blue jeans). One of the orthodox guys shouted at her and then ran off. Another person came up to us and said, "He just shouted 'Shiksa! Shiksa!' and ran off to get his friends to throw rocks and stuff at you. I think you'd better leave."
Good times.
Posted by: william e emba | July 7, 2009 11:39 AM
The word was coined as a deliberate euphemism, at a time when "Jewish" was practically a swear word. ("Hebrew" was the preferred word.)Posted by: william e emba | July 7, 2009 11:53 AM
An Eruv does not evade any of God's laws. It evades later Rabbinical enactments, and was introduced as part of those very enactments.
And what commandment is this evading? Thou shalt walk up 10 stories, even if you're an 80 year old cripple? There's no such commandment, so I suspect you're just making things up as you go along.
Posted by: AlgaeGirl
|
July 7, 2009 12:13 PM
@ #62 and #66: I remember the elevator in our hotel doing that on Saturday. It took forever to get downstairs (I'm afraid of heights, so I needed the elevator).
Posted by: NeuroWhoa | July 7, 2009 12:18 PM
When I was young I used to enjoy those books that collected hilarious stories of crimes gone wrong and the like, you know the type, and spent many a happy hour in hilarity.
I think that now if a book were available that collected all these crazy examples of religious kookery....
Posted by: Freidenker | July 7, 2009 12:23 PM
"Ma'alit Shabat" - they call them. "Saturday Elevators" - I use the term to refer to people who are really stupid (and thus are as "slow")
Posted by: Alyson Miers | July 7, 2009 12:35 PM
And what commandment is this evading? Thou shalt walk up 10 stories, even if you're an 80 year old cripple? There's no such commandment, so I suspect you're just making things up as you go along.
We're talking about edicts that were written before the days of large numbers of people living in buildings with stairs, and when precious few people managed to live long enough to become an 80-year-old cripple. There is clearly no distinction being made between the spirit and the letter of the law.
Posted by: Helioprogenus | July 7, 2009 12:39 PM
The idea that Israel is a secular state, similar to those of Western Europe, and even the US is laughable. I'm sure with all the lobbying, perhaps that's the general misunderstanding, but when a state discriminates against a segment of the population, and uses religious control through mob mentality, it should lose its secular status. It's funny considering that the father's of modern Zionism who settled Israel in the late 19th century were generally non-religious and many had Marxist influences. Still, the use of religion to justify illegal settlements, incursions into Palestinian territories as defined by the UN, and continuous aggressive economic and geo-political action does not constitute democratic actions. I understand the threat from their neighbors, and perhaps the need for increased security, but the constant saber rattling towards Iran, humanitarian crisis in Gaza, and refusal to properly negotiate a settlement is not endearing them to their neighbors.
Posted by: whitebird | July 7, 2009 1:02 PM
SA @ #22: "PZ it's your very own attitude that is keeping you off of turkish reality shows, "
Without context (which I had, in my pre-caffienated state, forgotten), this is possibly one of the funniest things I've ever read. Seriously. There are tears.
Posted by: Israeli | July 7, 2009 1:08 PM
To Tamar, #61:
Secular Jews may be minority in Israeli schools by 2030
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4956
We are royally screwed in our behind.
Posted by: william e emba | July 7, 2009 1:12 PM
You just know the Bible wants 80-year-old cripples to climb those ten flights of stairs (based on your not finding either of them mentioned in the Bible), and when not one Rabbi agrees with you, you tell us it's the "spirit" of the law they've allegedly sworn to enforce and accuse the Rabbis of being hypocrites or something.
As I said, you're just making it up as you go along.
Posted by: whitebird | July 7, 2009 1:12 PM
Oh, also, I just spent like five whole minutes finding this:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=122436
Posted by: ocminimoto | July 7, 2009 1:13 PM
Don't you get sable from an animal? Who is killing all these little beasts and in the name of whom? I smell a anti-sealing like movement. Screw the light switches let's save some animals from being killed for some ridiculous hat!
Posted by: noodles | July 7, 2009 1:25 PM
I had a clueless women chastise me for refusing to swap seats on a plane filled with UOJs. She was under the misapprehension that the fiasco was about families wanting to sit together. I had to explain to her that the forced seat-swaps were due to religious men being offended to sit next to women. I have seen women tourists harassed, shouted at, and spat on for wearing normal everyday clothes. By the way, married UOJ women wear wigs cuz the "omniscient extraterrestrial entity" wants married women to cover their hair. The "omniscient extraterrestrial entity" is also very concerned over the way men trim their hair and beards.
Posted by: felixthecat
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July 7, 2009 1:30 PM
"I've also noticed a curious phenomenon. I point out the stupidity of Christianity often enough, but whenever I mention the stupidity of Judaism, all of a sudden the hate talk about harming and killing people goes way up. Why is that?"
Yeah, try and point out the stupidity of Islam, and even the most secular of secularists start crying about "racism" "the unparalleled crimes of Christianity" "it's a religion of peace" and "when I find out who you are and where you live you stupid racist moron cat Ill come over and kill you", Gawd bless 'em.
Posted by: Elwood Herring | July 7, 2009 1:49 PM
Even if the crowd thought she was Jewish, that's still no excuse for such appalling behaviour. PZ's argument still applies: practise your religion by all means but don't impose it on others or castigate others for not showing due deference to your ideas. They could have simply ignored her. They chose to attack her instead. Maybe "mob mentality" took over, but it's still no excuse.
Posted by: tsg | July 7, 2009 1:52 PM
Were I ever given the opportunity, I would have to respond, "I'm sorry, but my religion requires me to sit next the person who will be most offended it."
Posted by: whitebird | July 7, 2009 1:52 PM
There is something about all this weird law-following that smacks of OCD. A (not ultra orthodox, but Jewish) friend of mine once told me that he was fairly sure that his grandma has an intense case of OCD, but that since it manifests in religious ritual, it's not seen that way.
The Saturday Elevator concept is cracking me up. It's also sounding like a good name for Free Design-like band.
Posted by: North of 49 | July 7, 2009 1:54 PM
I'd want to add to this what A.C. Grayling said most eloquently (Lynna @ #63): "[they] get the same rights [as everyone else], but no greater rights".
IOW, your religion does not make you "special", and you don't get any special treatment from society because of it. Which to my mind means at the very least: no tax exemptions on religious institutions' property; no tax breaks on donations to religious institutions; no religion-based censorship, "blue" laws or obscenity laws; no sanitizing, bowdlerizing or otherwise tampering with anything broadcast on the public airwaves, nor pressuring broadcasters to do so in order to not "offend" your particular beliefs.
Posted by: tsg | July 7, 2009 1:59 PM
I agree completely, but unfortunately the very concept of religion to begin with is that the followers are special. You'd have an easier time convincing water to flow uphill.
Posted by: Alter | July 7, 2009 2:11 PM
This whole story is kinda strange to me. One of my anthropology professors spent about a decade traveling the world, and told us how when she visited Jerusalem, she was constantly used by her host family and her neighbors to be their taxi driver. She said they figured she was going to hell anyway, might as well give them a ride to the store while she was at it. And now there are riots over it. That's really strange.
Posted by: william e emba | July 7, 2009 2:19 PM
Religious OCD has been known of for a long time, under the name "scrupulosity". It is often seen as a serious problem.
That's mere piffle. Google for "magic compass" or "sabbath toothbrush". Those patent write-ups are hardcore hilarious.
Posted by: Greg | July 7, 2009 2:34 PM
I used to be Jewish, Bar Mitzva'd and the whole shebang. I gave that up shortly after I became a "man".
An old house mate of mine was more orthodox than I had been and also did the no lights etc. thing. At sundown whatever was on was on, and off was off, she couldn't hit the switch so we did. She would however start to run a bath, she had been doing this for years and really enjoyed it. She didn't think it was proscribed because the water was already hot and she didn't actually do anything but release it.
I have to admit I enjoyed telling her that even running the water used electricity, because the city used pumps to help create the water pressure to get it through the pipes. I also explained to her how water heaters worked, just for good measure. Since she barely made it home before sunset most Fridays, especially during the winter, she had to give up her baths.
Too bad for her.
Posted by: whitebird | July 7, 2009 2:48 PM
Uh, yeah, those are pretty hilarious #85...but I get the feeling that you think that the Saturday Elevator doesn't exist?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator
Posted by: tsg | July 7, 2009 2:49 PM
You're evil. I like that.
Posted by: william e emba | July 7, 2009 3:00 PM
Huh? I only discussed Shabbos Elevators in two posts before you showed up. Sheesh.
Posted by: tsg | July 7, 2009 3:06 PM
Re #86 in addition:
It reminds me of the fabled ways of combating a vampire by preying on their compulsions ie. untying their shoes and throwing sunflower seeds on the floor because they have to stop to tie them / pick them up.
I had a friend who was a Marine that would stand at attention any time the National Anthem was played. We spent hours one night humming it at random times just to make him do it.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 7, 2009 3:13 PM
there are equally nasty loonies on the Palestinian side too of course
Palestinian is not a religion. The "sides" in that case are a refugee population and a powerful oppressive state.
Posted by: Lynna | July 7, 2009 3:24 PM
whitebird @81: I agree about the OCD. It seems to match up well with the endless attention to meaningless details, like how many times the right hand should wash the left. Apparently all gods are easily offended and one could spend all day every day fussing about the rules and still not get it right. Religions create an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder paradise.
Posted by: Elf Eye | July 7, 2009 3:26 PM
kitsunerei88 # 29, re conversion:
My mother was going through the conversion process so that she could be buried with her husband in the family plot. The rabbi asked her why she wished to convert. She replied that she was converting so she could be buried with her husband. He replied that, in that case, he couldn't accept her conversion. Religion erects barriers between people not only in life but in death.
Posted by: Qwerty | July 7, 2009 3:44 PM
Well, at least they didn't put her on a spit.
Posted by: secularguy | July 7, 2009 4:03 PM
General form: It's not X, it's the Y that comes with it.Another example: It's not nuclear weapons, it's the shockwave, heat and radiation that comes with them.
Posted by: tsg | July 7, 2009 4:05 PM
It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end.
Posted by: linnen
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July 7, 2009 4:12 PM
For the Evuls may I suggest carrying a transparent bag of red dye? Splash it around and tell the UOJ's that it was the blood of a menstrating woman. (Indelible dye as required by the occasion of course.)
Posted by: Demonhype | July 7, 2009 4:30 PM
I'm not sure this one's all about antisemitism. Most of the xian lunacy has been mouth diarrhea, but this was more on the level of assault. That's what I took the tongue-in-cheek calls to violence as, personally. Maybe I just haven't been here long enough, but when any loon resorts to physical attacks of any kind, I seem to see just as much talk about violence. It could be just antisemitism, but it could also be that we're so geared about the Holocaust in our culture that we notice it more when someone makes violent comments about Jews. (cue the inevitable "you're an antisemite Nazi!" accusations in 3...2...1.....there's always at least one in every group)
Not that resorting to violence is ever the answer--just that "never again" needs to apply to everyone regardless of whether they're Jewish or not.
Anyway, I haven't read through all the comments yet, but I thought I'd offer another perspective on that. I personally saw those comments more as reacting to the violent nature of the religiotard-ness and less about the specific belief.
Posted by: eddie | July 7, 2009 4:31 PM
william e enbd. Don't change the subject. You've called at least three commenters her liars. Explain yourself.
Posted by: Elwood Herring | July 7, 2009 4:32 PM
Lynna: That sounds like a subject worthy of study. Do religious beliefs and OCD symptoms have a common cause?
There must be someone reading this blog who could research that.
Posted by: eddie | July 7, 2009 4:38 PM
Once more with spelling :-/
william e emba. Don't change the subject. You've called at least three commenters here liars. Explain yourself.
Posted by: mas528 | July 7, 2009 4:51 PM
Really off topic but...
Nosferatu was far more compassionate, moral, and good, but does anyone else think that Menachem Begin looked like Max Schreck's interpretation of Nosferatu?
Posted by: Paul A. | July 7, 2009 5:01 PM
I agree with you except the problem and danger is these idiots believe what you are doing displeases "god" so stopping you wins favor with "him." They believe tolerating you is a weakness, we need to get rid of all these heretics and nonbelievers and then god will smile down on us. I believe religious toleration is a key to our survival, I also believe most religions say terrible thing about nonbelievers of their particular brand of lunacy.
Posted by: Lynna | July 7, 2009 5:03 PM
Elwood @100: Sounds like a job for Sam Harris.
Posted by: william e emba | July 7, 2009 5:24 PM
eddie wrote:
Change the subject? Explain what about myself? Frankly, the only lying I see is yours, right here.
Posted by: Daniel | July 7, 2009 5:58 PM
Their god can turn into a cracker? Why couldn't I think of that? That's brilliant. I hope to be able to use it soon.
Posted by: Daniel | July 7, 2009 5:59 PM
Their god can turn into a cracker? Why couldn't I think of that? That's brilliant. I hope to be able to use it soon.
Posted by: Nominal Egg | July 7, 2009 6:01 PM
william e emba @66:
And what commandment is this evading? Thou shalt walk up 10 stories, even if you're an 80 year old cripple? There's no such commandment, so I suspect you're just making things up as you go along.
And then @74:
I, too, read this as you saying these Saturday elevators did not exist, and that these people were making them up. If that's not what you meant, what did you mean?
Posted by: Nominal Egg | July 7, 2009 6:09 PM
Oh yeah, and this one @85:
Posted by: william e emba | July 7, 2009 6:31 PM
I meant that her criticism of the concept was reeking of illogical nonsense, and that she was just tossing out feel-good putdowns because she knew how to string together grammatical sentences. I point-blank asked what commandment was being violated by the use of Shabbos elevators, and rather than admit there was no such "thou shalt walk ten flights of stairs, even if you're an 80-year-old cripple" commandment, she tells me it was the "spirit" of the law being violated, since they didn't have elevators 3000 years ago.
If I thought she was making up the concept of a Shabbos elevator as a form of ridicule, I would not try to justify its use--to enable 80-year-old cripples to go up ten floors--now would I? Really, you're reading of me makes no sense either.
Let me spell it out.
The usual "spirit" of the law invoked to criticize Shabbos laws is that the Shabbos is the day of rest. I can understand where critics are coming from when they invoke the "spirit" over the "letter" of the law and advocate driving on Shabbos. But I can't begin to fathom how anyone can claim the "spirit" of the day of rest concept implies an 80-year-old cripple is supposed to arduously hike up ten flights of stairs.
I do not think she was lying, as such. I think she was just being totally thoughtless, spinning criticisms by picking all the usual buzzwords together and not noticing that what she actually wrote had no connection with the concept under discussion.
Let's see, my "piffle" comment--could that have thrown eddie off? I was saying piffle to someone thinking the Shabbos elevator was oh so funny. To each his own, but I meant nothing more than as far as I'm concerned, it's way way down the list of humorous things Orthodox Jews do to themselves. That's why I mentioned the "magic compass" and "Shabbos toothbrush"--now those are way funny. Go ahead, read the patents, like I recommended.
Posted by: SEF | July 7, 2009 6:44 PM
@ Elwood Herring #100:
From my collection of interesting links, here's the one about (fundamentalist) religion and OCD (and being schizotypal and/or epileptic):
http://ffrf.org/fttoday/2003/april/index.php?ft=sapolsky
Posted by: Paul | July 7, 2009 6:54 PM
lol, at the end of their "Reward for Proof of Evolution contest ( http://missinguniversemuseum.com/Reward.htm ):
So, there are no sorts of objective standards. They will test your science with a popular vote, including those with a vested interest in not admitting the existence of transitional fossils. It's a mystery why the reward has never been claimed.
Posted by: Michael Kingsford Gray | July 7, 2009 7:01 PM
"Started"?!?!
Posted by: cd | July 7, 2009 7:05 PM
There is something about all this weird law-following that smacks of OCD. A (not ultra orthodox, but Jewish) friend of mine once told me that he was fairly sure that his grandma has an intense case of OCD, but that since it manifests in religious ritual, it's not seen that way.
Oh, the whole puritanism about sex/indulgence in grotesque porn and degrading sex and hypersexuality/natalism crap is all very bipolar/OCD. If you look at it long enough and carefully enough, pretty much all 'social conservatism' is probably undergirded by wacky beliefs of True Believers with mild BD/OCD they deny or are ignorant of. (It seems to be a disorder with a north-south gradient in Europe, btw. Correlated with reduced skin pigmentation. Deficient tyrosine/melanin transport across cell membranes might be predisposing to subpar dopaminergic neuron function. I've had some good fun with white supremacists with that.)
I read a US soc con crackpot blog that went totally nuts when PZ did that communion wafer thing. The author is transparently an undiagnosed case of bipolar/OCD. Has a bunch of relatives, and a kid, with disorders on the spectrum. Oh, and he requires, desperately, the 'structure' and 'discipline' that religion gives him. But he has no tolerance for other forms of common mental differences- gay people, women with PMS, etc. He wants the inmates to run the asylum, frankly.
Abortion...famously the top ranks are all male, and their deepest motivation seems to be that they believe that their mothers intended to off them. Or would have, if they had the chance. That's a perfect Rohrschach of mildly mentally ill persons- paranoid, problem children who angered or frustrated their parents to extremes, and persuaded that the world would off them If They Knew.
Posted by: Chris Tucker | July 7, 2009 7:13 PM
You're a SubGenius?
Praise "Bob"!
Posted by: Cowcakes | July 7, 2009 7:32 PM
Well, seeing as this is a biology blog maybe we could come up with a genetically engineered pathogen that required urgent medical treatment, but only manifested on Saturdays. ;-)
(Dr) Oh dear Mr Ultra Orthodox, it appears you have a life threatening illness and may die in the next few hours. Oh well come back on Monday as I cannot treat you until then as today is your Sabbath and tomorrow is the Christian Sabbath and the lord commands that I do not work on the Sabbath.
Fucking nutjobs (FNs), but obvioulsy Australia's FNs are not quite as nutty, as in one of Sydney's suburbs they talked the council into installing motion sensors at some traffic lights so they don't have to push the pedestrian button. The FNs are too stupid to realise that the power workers are working and that they are part of the cause for them working. Religion never did involve logic.
Posted by: Aristide Valentin, Chief of the Paris Police | July 7, 2009 7:33 PM
Frankly, the very fact that you are ready to make such a diagnostic shows that you are not qualified to make such a diagnostic...
Posted by: cd | July 7, 2009 7:42 PM
Frankly, the very fact that you are ready to make such a diagnostic shows that you are not qualified to make such a diagnostic...
Son, I don't need to be a chicken to be able to identify an egg. I lived with some persons diagnosed with the disorder for several years. I'm not sure what further qualifications I need- the experience was comprehensive and a mix of horrifying episodes and terrible sadness. I wish it on no one and wish there were no such thing.
Posted by: Scrabcake | July 7, 2009 8:59 PM
Hey cd, If you don't know what you're talking about, and you don't, then STFU.
Bipolar and OCD aren't even the same type of disorder, and they don't exhibit similar symptoms. They both have a huge impact on the lives of people who suffer from them, so don't belittle that by diagnosing people whose political opinions you don't agree with.
Not everything that differs from your established norm is a disorder, and for the record, I'm pro choice, and anti religions telling me to obey their rules.
Posted by: Derech HaSquid | July 7, 2009 9:43 PM
the term "ultra orthodox" means "hasidic" and its key to not confuse hasid jews with jewish jews. most jews consider hasidism to be a new religion. these rock throwers have a very long list of odd laws. i learned a bit becasue i grew curious and studied with a few of these sects.
for example....a married hasid may use a gentile hooker if his wife is having her period.
and a hasid is NEVER allowed to see any naked woman including his own wife.
however hasids are required to see naked members of their own gender weekly in a ritual bath (what goes on in these ritual mikva baths is just like what goes on in steam rooms in gyms).
there are many pedophile scandals with hasids. if hasid reports these type of crime to the cops the reporting hasid is ostracized from the community.
and finally the weirdest thing....after a hasidic circumcision the guy doing the slicing puts his mouth on the wound and sucks out blood. hasids in nyc are very defensive about this ritual and claim its not molestation.
Posted by: Derech HaSquid | July 7, 2009 9:43 PM
the term "ultra orthodox" means "hasidic" and its key to not confuse hasid jews with jewish jews. most jews consider hasidism to be a new religion. these rock throwers have a very long list of odd laws. i learned a bit becasue i grew curious and studied with a few of these sects.
for example....a married hasid may use a gentile hooker if his wife is having her period.
and a hasid is NEVER allowed to see any naked woman including his own wife.
however hasids are required to see naked members of their own gender weekly in a ritual bath (what goes on in these ritual mikva baths is just like what goes on in steam rooms in gyms).
there are many pedophile scandals with hasids. if hasid reports these type of crime to the cops the reporting hasid is ostracized from the community.
and finally the weirdest thing....after a hasidic circumcision the guy doing the slicing puts his mouth on the wound and sucks out blood. hasids in nyc are very defensive about this ritual and claim its not molestation.
Posted by: bonze | July 7, 2009 9:48 PM
With respect to the relationship between mental illness and religiosity, one interesting book which addresses the subject is Seized by Eve LaPlante, who speculated that the hyperreligiosity and intermittent hallucinations associated with some cases of temporal lobe epilepsy might have provided some of the driving inspiration for historical figures such as Moses (e.g., the "burning bush"; I don't believe that she discusses Mohammed, who is another rather obvious candidate for the diagnosis).
Posted by: TheTransitionalForm | July 7, 2009 9:49 PM
Personally I think that if the Ultra-Orthodox don't want people driving trough their neighborhood on the sabbath then they should live in a gated community and close the gate on the sabbath. Otherwise they have no rights to keep people from driving through their neighborhood. Why is it so hard for religious people to understand that you can do what you want as long as it doesn't harm people outside your religion, and that includes letting people use a camera on the sabbath, and letting women sit where they want on the bus.(even if these women don't have their head covered or are wearing modern clothing.)
Posted by: jp | July 7, 2009 9:53 PM
Oh, yeah. Religion is good for people. Gives them values.
Posted by: MotoWebbi | July 7, 2009 10:04 PM
God's chosen spit!
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 7, 2009 10:53 PM
Reading PZ's blog on a daily basis depresses me. Simply too much arrogant and violent stupidity.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 7, 2009 10:55 PM
william e emba,
I don't think the people here are laughing at the idea of "80-year-old cripples to climb ... ten flights of stairs". Rather they're laughing at programming an elevator to stop at every floor just so some 80-year-old cripple and/or their spry, healthy younger friends and family don't have to push a frackin' button.
If the idea is to rest on the Sabbath, then rest damn'it. Stay inside, don't go anywhere where you need the use of mechanical conveyances. This silliness about pre-arranging cheats so one can almost go about one's daily activities is what we're laughing at.
Posted by: RamziD | July 8, 2009 12:59 AM
PZ, I haven't noticed this phenomenon of more violent responses whenever a thread about judaism is posted. It seems that anytime an article is posted where someone is abused (either violently or emotionally) by some stupid religious action, there are always a few responsders who emotionally invoke violent retribution.
In response to #50, anti-semitism is commonly used to mean "anti-judaism", but this is technically incorrect. The semitic regions of the middle east/africa include jews, muslims, christians, and I'm sure some tribal religions.
Posted by: Susan Silberstein
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July 8, 2009 2:36 AM
#116, health and life saving issues are exceptions to not working on Shabbat.
#120, you don't know what you're talking about. Learn something about the Hasidim before you write such nonsense.
Posted by: Lotharloo | July 8, 2009 3:44 AM
@Susan Silberstein, #129
Maybe you can explain then. The Hasidic belief system sounds as fucked up as most fundamentalist religions though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Judaism#Women
Posted by: John Morales | July 8, 2009 3:58 AM
RamziD @128,
You're wrong. It's come up here before (can't remember who first elucidated the issue, sorry), but I've been convinced it's exclusively used against Jews. Search other references if you doubt me.
Posted by: Yair | July 8, 2009 6:04 AM
It's embarassing to see our shame turn public, but the really interesting thing is that I haven't heared of this before! These things are common-happenings in Israel, but aren't reported, at least not in the news media.
I was there on a secular demonstration, demonstrating against the Ultra Orthodox and for opening the parking lot. The battle is not over, and while the parking lot is now open it isn't certain it will remain so. Religious oppression in Israel, and especially in Jerusalem, is very much alive, with the above event being a blatant example.
Posted by: roxtar | July 8, 2009 6:18 AM
Uh, if I understand the scam, the ritual turns a cracker into god, not the other way around. A minor point, to be sure, but folks have been burned at the stake for lesser heresies.
Posted by: J-Ball | July 8, 2009 7:03 AM
"This silliness about pre-arranging cheats so one can almost go about one's daily activities is what we're laughing at."
This is what blows my mind about all this. They make up rules to get in good with god, then they make up cheats to get around the rules. Cognitive dissonance writ large.
Regarding the people complaining about the motion detectors in the hallway at their condo -- that it results in them causing the lights to be turned on -- isn't there the same problem with using timers? If you set a timer on Friday afternoon to turn on the lights Friday evening, you've caused the lights to go on Friday evening Or if you turn the shabbat key on the elevator, you cause switches and relays to be thrown all day on Saturday. If you ask a gentile to drive you somewhere Saturday morning you've caused all the sparks in the spark plugs because the gentile was planning on sleeping in Saturday morning.
Atheism is a lot easier. It's just common sense.
Posted by: RationalRobot | July 8, 2009 9:24 AM
In god we rust.
Posted by: Lotharloo | July 8, 2009 9:58 AM
I had a friend who once vowed to his god that he would never touch his computer mouse to play civilization again. A few days later he was back at the game but with a cloth on top of the mouse.
Posted by: Ron | July 8, 2009 10:14 AM
This is no different than the atheists/agnostics who want to forbid anyone else from referring to God in public or on the airwaves. They also use the courts to tear down any memorial that has a religious symbol. Yes, I'm talking to you, ACLU.
Posted by: SEF | July 8, 2009 10:25 AM
It's because the fundamental characteristic of a religious person is dishonesty - the more religious they are the more dishonest they have to be.
Early on they can merely be gullible (emotionally immature) and ignorant. But if they haven't snapped out of it once their education and experience has exceeded the amount required by their intelligence*, then you can be sure they're lying to themselves as well as to others in order to maintain the religious fantasy to which they've become addicted.
Typically (if not merely the mild, lip-service only, cowardly types of religionist), they're copiously deceitful, habitual/compulsive liars and fantasists. The milder ones are just quieter about it. But they're still having to avoid (quite assiduously) looking at reality (including their fellow religionists) to keep on deceiving themselves that everything about their preferred fantasy is fine.
* NB it's an inverse relationship - more of one means you need less of the other to achieve the break-out threshold.
Posted by: Nominal Egg | July 8, 2009 11:30 AM
Strawman much? Look again, Ron. It's not the same thing at all.Posted by: whitebird | July 8, 2009 12:07 PM
Susan @ 129, I suspect that you're most offended by @116's final example? It sounds outrageous, to be sure, kinda "jews eat babies!!1!-ish" but:
http://www.jewishledger.com/articles/2006/02/23/news/news02.txt
Posted by: whitebird | July 8, 2009 12:23 PM
@137 - LOL!
Posted by: william e emba | July 8, 2009 1:11 PM
Neither did I. My sole point regarding "piffle" was there are other things that are much funnier.
Actually, "rest" is a vague term, and as such, it is not the "idea".
Which means you are missing the point, more like drooling like a hebephrenic than actual laughing. The idea is to not be going about your daily activities. Avoiding mechanical conveyances is not an issue as such. In short, you, at least, are laughing because you have a completely wrong idea about what is going on, and just assume you know better.
And my original point stands. A Shabbos elevator is not a cheat. There is no commandment that requires 80-year-old cripples to walk up ten flights of stairs, and the Shabbos elevator is an oh-so-clever way to sidestep that requirement.
Posted by: william e emba | July 8, 2009 1:24 PM
This is ignorant nonsense. Briefly put: "Ultra orthodox" refers to the "heredim", meaning those who live (or claim to live) the most strictly possible right-wing interpretation of the law no matter what. "Hasidic" refers to those groups who follow (or claim to follow) particular rabbis exclusively.
Over the years there has been much overlap.
Posted by: william e emba | July 8, 2009 1:41 PM
Duh, this is the atheist rendition. The traditional Jewish version is God gave the rules, and also gave the rabbis the authority to add more rules. Which they did, and to which they deliberately included loopholes.
The only cognitive dissonance is the fakery you put in.
No.
Simple, isn't it?
Well, yes. But you haven't turned them on on Friday evening. Unlike the motion detectors. That's the issue.
Same answer as above. You do know how a Shabbos elevator works, don't you?
Asking a gentile to drive absent a medical emergency or equally compelling reasons is simply not permitted.
In your case, it's also a free pass to talk about something that you know pretty much nothing about. And then sneer about it all day long.
Posted by: Jamey | July 8, 2009 7:08 PM
They weren't spitting, they were cheering, "Louuuuuuu."
Posted by: David Scott | July 8, 2009 9:29 PM
Although, I personally am so far to the left that even the democrats appear to me to be "right-wing," I consider myself to be a strict constitutionalist. It is my opinion that since its inception there has been an organized and systematic assault by the conservatives in the United States on the civil liberties written into the US Constitution. The “War on Drugs”; “War on Terror”; “War on Communism” and a host of other wars waged by the right wing are really nothing more than a War on People--an excuse to erode civil rights to the point of non-existence. I invite you to my website devoted to raising awareness on this puritan attack on freedom: http://pltcldscsn.blogspot.com/
Posted by: RamziD | July 8, 2009 11:23 PM
John Morales #131:
How am I wrong? Semitic people have their roots all over the Middle East and parts of Africa. The term "anti-semitism" is commonly used to refer only to Jewish people. This is technically wrong.
I understand what you're getting at. Everyone knows what group you're referring to when you say "anti-semitism". Maybe the term comes from some other root that I'm unaware of, but from my understanding, a "semite" technically refers to the regions I mentioned above.
Posted by: csrster | July 9, 2009 3:21 AM
No RamziD it is not, in any sense, wrong. The word antisemitism was coined to mean antipathy towards Jews, and that's all it means or ever has meant. Expecting a word's meaning to be derivable from its etymology is linguistically fallacious.
Posted by: DagoRed | July 12, 2009 12:09 AM
This is something too many religious people fail to understand — you can practice your religion, other people can practice their religion, but you don't get to tell other people that they must practice your religion.
This is the little known religious corollary to the well founded social convention, "you can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose."
Given the inappropriate ways in which so many religious leaders use their genitalia, something tells me that sticking their fingers up another person's nose is likely no big deal to them (and, for a similar reason, likely explains why they also don't see anything wrong with telling others how to practice religion as well). But wait...religion makes us more moral, right? //irony
Posted by: John Morales | July 12, 2009 6:44 AM
Derech @120,
Probably not, but Rabbi probed for circumcised infants’ herpes.
Yeah, 'probed' is not the best word here... :)
Posted by: John Morales | July 12, 2009 6:51 AM
RamziD @147, csrster says it well.
'Tis wise to research before being definitive.