Pharyngula

Posted by: BAllanJ | July 9, 2009 9:56 AM

What a badge of honour for our Dutch friends. *applause*

Posted by: happycetacean | July 9, 2009 10:03 AM

Wow, we can only dream, can't we?

Posted by: DrAce | July 9, 2009 10:05 AM

What on earth was that? There are people talking about legalised suicide, but we won't interview or show them on camera?
Gewd I HATE fox News with the same venom that they show for homosexuals.

Posted by: Watchman | July 9, 2009 10:07 AM

Oh no! Surely The Netherlands will push us to the brinker of disaster! The unimpeachable authority of Fox News has changed my worldview yet again! Now I'm going to have to divorce my brilliant and beautiful Dutch wife. Sure, she's actually Swedish, but - same thing, eh? Damned European militant socialist secularists! Ok, so she was born in Massachusetts, but her grandmother was Swedish. Damn her! Whatever. Errr... What was I saying? Oh yeah! Damn you, The Netherlands! Damn you to Hell!

Posted by: Simon C. | July 9, 2009 10:10 AM

Did he really say they legalized infanticide!? And I love how he says that fantastic fallacy : "The next step is probably a suicide pill..." Oh, really? Aren't you just trying to scare your viewers?

That reporter has a VERY limited and strangely contorded view of what the Netherlands are. That's not very surprising from FOX News, but I think really insulting to the Dutch. Amsterdam may be the nightmare of american christians, but the country isn't made of stoned child murderers and their harem of gay prostitutes.

The Dutch are one of the most understanding people in the world, they don't deserve the hate of FOX News.

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 9, 2009 10:11 AM

I can't wait to go back. The week I spent in Amsterdam was amazing, and the day of van Gogh and Mahler down around the Museumplein was the single best day of my life.

Posted by: Menno | July 9, 2009 10:14 AM

As a Dutchman, that was really fun to watch. However, even here we can see religious fundamentalism rearing it's ugly head ever more often.

Also, aside of the framed reporting, one real error: it's not legal to marry more than one person over here.

Posted by: DrAce | July 9, 2009 10:17 AM

What on earth was that? There are people talking about legalised suicide, but we won't interview or show them on camera?
Gewd I HATE fox News with the same venom that they show for homosexuals.

Posted by: mikespeir | July 9, 2009 10:18 AM

And yet, their society doesn't seem to be falling apart.

Posted by: DrAce | July 9, 2009 10:19 AM

What on earth was that? There are people talking about legalised suicide, but we won't interview or show them on camera?
Gewd I HATE fox News with the same venom that they show for homosexuals.

Posted by: Susan | July 9, 2009 10:21 AM

Also, their public transportation is amazing. None of my friends there own cars-- trains or bicycles are all they use. And I doubt they've ever devoted a moment of their lives to worrying about health care expenses. Holland is one of my favorite places on earth to visit, so it figures Faux Noise would find it scary.

Posted by: Anderson | July 9, 2009 10:23 AM

Strangely, this reminds me of Orwell's 1984 where the news reports on the "horrors" of other nations to remind the populace of the level of "well-being and safety" that they enjoy.

Posted by: Dax | July 9, 2009 10:25 AM

Finally something I can talk about as an ex-New Orleanian-Welsh_resident-Dutch-citizen! The Netherlands militantly secular? Say what? The Netherlands has an anti-blasphemy law, the government were quick to condemn the Danish cartoons because it was insensitive to religious convictions, two out of the three political coalition parties in power are vehemently religious (the Christian Democrats of the CDA and the Christian Union!) that are out to stop a lot of the liberal freedoms the Dutch enjoy, we have a CDA-minister who said that Sharia courts are not anti-democratic, and we have a rising Christian and Islamic right that is creeping into society.
Please show me how the Netherlands is militantly secular...

Posted by: Bernard Bumner | July 9, 2009 10:26 AM

That reporter has a VERY limited and strangely contorded view of what the Netherlands are. That's not very surprising from FOX News, but I think really insulting to the Dutch. Amsterdam may be the nightmare of american christians, but the country isn't made of stoned child murderers and their harem of gay prostitutes.

Yes, the stupidity of portraying the greatest excesses of Amsterdam as being broadly representative of the Netherlands as whole really obscures the point. The changes have not just been imposed via young liberals and those at the fringes of society. The changes come from a liberal mood which is pervasive throughout northern Europe, and which necessarily means that mainstream self-identified conservatives in the region are far to the left of the American conservative movement.

That`s why rightwing guys like Wilder got many votes in the last election.

You have to remember that the right wing in Europe is much less conservative in many respects than in the US (although, it is equally nationalistic).

...it's not legal to marry more than one person over here.

Fox News will never let mere facts get in the way of a story.

Posted by: Ouchimoo | July 9, 2009 10:27 AM

That's Fox! I would say this is rather humorous considering that I just finished watching a clip from Faux Noise before coming over here and seeing this. The clip: We keep marrying other species! That's right! The problem is the Swedes have pure genes. They marry other Swedes, that's the rule. Finns marry other Finns; they have a pure society.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/08/fox-news-host-americans-k_n_228209.html

Oh, Fox, does that bottomless pit ever end?

Posted by: Adamus | July 9, 2009 10:30 AM

As #25 Dax said, the Netherlands isn't all that secular. Two of the three parties making up our current governmental coalition are Christian parties, and they've been trying to push their Christian agenda forward for a while now.

Nonetheless compared to the USA I suppose we're extremely non-religious. But then, most of Europe is extremely non-religious by that standard. Especially Scandinavian countries.

Interestingly, European countries in general tend to be the best places to live as well. :) See the link under my name.

Posted by: Jeannei | July 9, 2009 10:31 AM

Great segment. Enjoyed thoroughly religion being categorized as toxic, dangerous and scary - glad that wasn't cut. Even though 8% weekly mass attendance is still too high - I would love to move there (from the US). How are the Netherlands fairing in the global recession?

Posted by: Chiaroscuro | July 9, 2009 10:37 AM

Send this piece of crap to Jon Stewart, He will know how to tear it down to pieces.

Now I have to find a way to get residency in the Netherlands.

Posted by: gaypaganunitarianagnostic | July 9, 2009 10:38 AM

Fox?, I would have thought 'The 700 Club,' or is that a distinction without a difference?

Posted by: Cappy | July 9, 2009 10:38 AM

Makes sense to me. The pilgrims supposedly came to America to escape the religious strife and oppression back in Europe. It just seems that the Dutch have escaped it themselves.

Posted by: Ticker | July 9, 2009 10:39 AM

There's definitely two christian parties in government, but one of them doesn't mention god more than occasionally, and certainly never in a parliamentary debate in order to score points. In fact it doesn't score you any positive marks at all to refer to the christian god when trying to pass a law.

The suicide pill has been under discussion for a very long time, but popular opinion mostly feels that a single day of very bad depression is a rather bad reason to die, so we prefer they see a doctor about it first. A lot of depressions simply pass over time, even without medical intervention.

But see, that's a practical concern, and doesn't undermine how all the evil dutch people see no justification to force someone to go through the last few months of severely painful terminal cancer, or several decades of crippling agony due to a chronic condition.

Life just isn't sacred for its own sake here.

Posted by: Jason | July 9, 2009 10:39 AM

"There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch."

The Netherlands just moved to the top of my list of places in Europe I would love to visit. Militant secularism trumps even great wine.

Posted by: Dax | July 9, 2009 10:41 AM

@33:

How are the Netherlands fairing in the global recession?

But back to topic: Northwest Europe might be less religious than the US (and yes, that is true with the exception of Ireland and Wales) it is overrun by somethingism, this vague notion of believing in something -- deistic beliefs, CAM, spiritualism, ghosts, UFOs, angels, quantum-quackery, etc. The people here gluttonously, metaphysically gorge on these absurd things!

Posted by: Gilian | July 9, 2009 10:43 AM

I really really wish we had a secular government here instead of the bible-thumpers we currently have.
And they also seemed not to have noticed that we still have a divine-inspired* monarchy here, so in actually we are very very far away from a secular society here.

* You know, god gave them and their descendants the right to rule us and the country actually pay them many millions a year to perform their silly outdated rituals. No matter that they're amongst the richest families on the world.

Posted by: Evan | July 9, 2009 10:43 AM

There's an excellent debunking of that whole "report" here on Reddit.

Posted by: J_w23 | July 9, 2009 10:44 AM

The Netherlands is a great country to live in! And no wonder we despise religion... We've had so many wars over here that people actually did learn something: they're are mostly motivated by religion.

I know my grandma had Jewish refugees hiding in their basement during WOII, that had a strong influence on our family's Roman Catholic tradion. Eventually my grandma became far more secular because of it.

Posted by: JD | July 9, 2009 10:46 AM

Let's not forget the good news: The churches are being ridiculed. That's got to be worth a bowl of Dutch yum yum.

Posted by: Carlie | July 9, 2009 10:46 AM

What's hilarious is how the reporter keeps talking about how awful Holland is, as the video shows people walking the streets looking perfectly happy.

Posted by: Mena | July 9, 2009 10:49 AM

Wow, that was one of the biggest crocks of, er, militant anti-secularism that I have ever seen. It looks like Fox really *is* going for that stupid redneck demographic.
As to the comments from the Dutch posters, you guys have to realize one thing about Fox. They lie. They aren't getting their facts wrong, it's straight up bullshit. Being a Republican is kind of like a religion at this point, where no amount of actual information (ie: reality) ever gets through to them and their preconceived ideas and extreme jingoism. Fox is just a cheerleader for that crowd. They were even known for using White House press releases verbatim during the Bush tenure. It's simply propaganda.

Posted by: Scott | July 9, 2009 10:51 AM

I love that video sooo much!

Posted by: Haruhiist | July 9, 2009 10:54 AM

Judging from the response Ticker gave, there actually has been some debate one the suicide pill. Let's just establish then that it's not a widespread debate, and probably not a living issue at all in the north.

On a lighter note, I just told some colleagues about the video and we had a good laugh about his scaremongering about gay marriage, prostitution, weed and euthanasia.
Strangely we're of the opinion the gun-toting amongst US-ians is a bigger issue. Imagine that.

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 9, 2009 11:00 AM

As I recall The Netherlands tends to do pretty well of these quality of life surveys, that compare how happy people are in different countries.

I think I know the reason why. Something to do with being a tolerant and liberal society where equality is taken seriously and accesses to good healthcare and education do not depend on your ability to pay.

I wonder how Fox News explains it.

Posted by: Desert Son | July 9, 2009 11:04 AM

The pilgrims supposedly came to America to escape the religious strife and oppression back in Europe.

So they could establish religious strife and oppression on their own terms in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Fox News would have been right at home among the Puritans.

No kings,

Robert

Posted by: RtPt | July 9, 2009 11:06 AM

Haruhiist

Guns and alcohol are patriotic. So is xenophobia. You are either "fer us" or "agin us". Half of this country is bat-shit crazy...they believe in Fox, Republican Party and Bible thumpin'. They hate Europe, socialism, the UN... they have been brainwashed into believing "rugged individualism" and "American Exceptionalism" as they are fleeced by their gov't and multi-national corporations. "What is the matter with Kansas?" is a great book on this whole premise (people acting against their own self-interests). But as long as our public feels this strong existential angst (violence, unemployment, healthcare, poor social safety net) on a daily basis then religion and the lunacy that comes with it will continue to be strong here.

I look at North Europe and think maybe there is some hope for the rest of the post-industrial nations.

Posted by: blueelm | July 9, 2009 11:07 AM

If nothing else this illustrates how much Fox caters to its own specific type of viewer. I didn't even realize this was negative until they got to the infanticide part. I kept thinking how awesome the Dutch were sounding. They forgot to mention the sprinkles on toast thing. I'm sure that's a sin too.

Mmmm... chocolate sprinkles.

Posted by: TGAP Dad | July 9, 2009 11:17 AM

I am in the midst of reading "Society Without Religion" by Phil Zuckerman, which serendipitously focuses on two deeply secular societies - Sweden and Denmark. This report, in contrast ot the book, makes it all the more clear how biased Fox's reporting actually is. Far from being scared of religion, or anti-religious, the Danes and Swedes are predominantly NOT religious, beginning within the last two generations.

Oddly enough, in Denmark, most people pay taxes to and are members of the national church, and are baptized and married in the church as well. (You actually have to complete paperwork and be signed out of the church to be excluded!) And most Danes identify themselves as "christian," but not religious (i.e. do not believe in a god) when asked. Religion is is regarded the same way we think of children's fairy tales; grown-ups don't really believe that stuff.

Posted by: RtPt | July 9, 2009 11:21 AM

Dax: "I left... and I actually felt more free as an outspoken atheist in the deep South of New Orleans or in good ol' Christian Wales, then I did in the Netherlands."

Yep, those Southerners love the atheists...Glad you were able to find a nice alcove of tolerance in New Orleans. Most of the US is pretty hostile towards atheists...especially in the South and central US. I lived in the South most of my life and your description is very naive. There is plenty of sociological studies that point out the pure hatred of atheism that exists in the US. Immediately after 9/11, Muslim got a higher approval rating than atheists.

My guess...and it is a guess, would be that the Dutch would care less if someone was an atheist or not.

Posted by: Stu | July 9, 2009 11:26 AM

Well it`s not that nice in the netherlands (even if it`s quiet cool there)

Let me guess, stupid statistic in 3... 2... 1...

According to this article one woman in nine, has been a victim of a rape.

Yikes. Better move to the US! Oh, wait...

"The United States has the world's highest rape rate of the countries that publish such statistics. It's 4 times higher than Germany, 13 times higher than England, and 20 times higher than Japan."

Anyway, for my fellow Dutchies, go to YouTube and look up Glenn Beck. Endless entertainment (my favorite is him and Bill O'Reilly explaining issues with Barbies).

Posted by: Quinx | July 9, 2009 11:29 AM

Fuck Fox News

Posted by: Stu | July 9, 2009 11:34 AM

The only really big mistake our government made a few years ago, is to privatise the health insurance system. It's completely messed up now

Dude, you have NO concept of messed up. Try paying $1,100 a month for coverage that can be dropped at any time.

Oh, and besides -- it has been pretty much privatized for quite a while. Just because they CALL it Ziekenfonds doesn't mean the government actually runs it.

Posted by: Dax | July 9, 2009 11:34 AM

@RtPt: naive it might be, but I have lived there for several enjoyable years. And yes, I am aware of the hostility towards atheists in the US... but my point is that at least it is in the open: you know what's coming.
In Europe we kinda have to shut up because someone might find a rational, atheist point of view offensive to their views. You're always in the dark when it comes to people's beliefs and motives, and their responses.
At least in the US you know who you're dealing with because people just freely speak their insane, bigoted minds*.

*) referring to those who indeed have insane, bigoted minds, which does not apply to every American (about 0.05% is normal and reads Pharyngula)

Posted by: b00ger | July 9, 2009 11:39 AM

Spent 6 months living in Maastricht in the southern Netherlands. Was one of the best times of my life. I love the people, the culture, and oh yeah, the bud's pretty good too.

Posted by: Pascalle | July 9, 2009 11:42 AM

Hey Stu.. chill.

For starters, i'm not a dude.
I agree that a lot of countries (including the us) have a lot worse system than we have.

I don't want to go in that direction, and at the moment we _are_ heading that way.

I used to pay 19.95 guilders per month, now i pay 85 euros (i always had the cheapest insurance possible as i'm never sick).

Of course it could be worse.. but it sure could be better too.

Besides, if this is in my opinion the worst thing they did in the last few years, that does mean that we don't have it bad at all.

Another question from a comment.. how bad we're hit with the crisis.

We're hit by it. Some businesses more than others. We'll survive. We have a pretty good social system for the people who will lose their jobs. We're slower in getting out of the recession, but the up side is that our recession won't go nearly as deep as the one in the usa.

Posted by: Marina Muilwijk | July 9, 2009 11:44 AM

@ Mozglubov:

I'm confused about the comments on the Catholic Church being so strong in the Netherlands in the past... weren't the Dutch mainly Protestant (which helped spark a bunch of those 16th century wars)?

Yes, the Dutch were mainly Protestant. In fact, for quite a while Catholics were not allowed to practice their religion in public. But once that ban was lifted, they came back with a vengeance, getting into church building contest with the Protestants, starting schools, societies and what have you.

But I think that what the speakers were referring to was that if you lived in a mostly Catholic area, or worked for a Catholic employer, attendance at mass was pretty much compulsory. And students at Catholic schools of course had no choice whatsoever. No wonder that you get 95% attendance that way.

Posted by: Jeff | July 9, 2009 11:48 AM

Another side effect of lack of religion -- crime rate plummets, not that Fox wants to talk about that:

http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2246821.ece/Netherlands_to_close_prisons_for_lack_of_criminals

Posted by: Jeff | July 9, 2009 11:50 AM

Another side effect of lack of religion -- crime rate plummets, not that Fox wants to talk about that:

http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2246821.ece/Netherlands_to_close_prisons_for_lack_of_criminals

Posted by: TheLoneIguana | July 9, 2009 11:55 AM

RtPt: I asked. They mutter something about having to get "approval from corporate" to change channels. In the town I live in, you'd probably get beaten in the parking lot for daring to change Faux news or, on one of the other TVs, CMT.

I get a good deal through work, so I try to just focus on my MP3 player.

Posted by: Paul | July 9, 2009 11:55 AM

Yay for the Netherlands.
Prima wonen hier.

Thanks, Fox News!

Posted by: HinZ3 | July 9, 2009 12:03 PM

This is my first reply here ever, because I'm from the Netherlands and this item by Fox makes me itch (just like all Fox items actually). I really like reading this blog everyday.

'Militantly secular'? What does that mean? People protesting in the streets waving secular flags? Attacks on believers? There is no such thing in the Netherlands. The past few years we háve seen a series of attacks that were religiously motivated (murder of van Gogh and such).

Ofcourse we get the whole 'secular dutch are religiously following non-religion' BS again. To that I can only say: not collecting stamps is not a hobby...

Our prime minister, Balkenende, and one of our vice-prime ministers, Rouvoet, (yes we have 2) are openly christian, and have been criticised for years because of their support of religion over secularism in some cases. The prime minister said in an interview: 'without faith, you cannot function' and the vice-prime minister last month said 'we musn't forget the dangers of militant secularism, wich are sometimes even greater then those of religious extremism'.

links here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_B5MmKMOI0 and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzGQV6TCQWo (I'm sorry I don't know if links are allowed)

It's weird that they're talking about catholicism in the Fox segment by the way: the main religion in the Netherlands has been protestantism for hundreds of years. There is also no such thing as a Catholic church spokesman in the Netherlands. For something like that they should have interviewed a dutch archbishop or something.

The drug issue is still in debate in our ówn country, but the Netherlands score exceedingly higher than the USA in ány study taken about drugs, in ány area.

There is no such thing in Holland as marriages or partnerships with more than 2 people.

There are less abortions (by percentage and absolute) in the Netherlands than in the USA, there are also much less child pregnancies. (and we can also add to the list things like healthcare, social services etc. but that would just be to embarassing for Holland-haters)

The entire euthanasia-segment is also BS. Yes we have legalised it here, but only to a degree and as with all other 'controversial laws' in the Netherlands it's a neverending debate.

Shopping for sex in Amsterdam is becoming less 'normal': the Amsterdam officials have started to systematically buy out brothel owners and closing down the businesses.

We're not scared of religion: we have seen what religion does to restrict people in their lives, to discriminate or to apply laws to people who are not of your faith. The first article of the dutch constitution is carved in stone on the square in front of our houses of parliament, and says: 'Everybody who is in The Netherlands shall be treated equal. Discrimination on grounds of faith, way of life, politics, race, gender or any other grounds is not permitted.'

That's something that religious people and our own prime minister sometimes seem to forget: freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.

Posted by: Geral | July 9, 2009 12:22 PM

From the way he was talking, I expected to see the city up in flames with riots going on, clergy being beat in the streets, and the horsemen of the apocolypse terrorizing the population.

Yet, they look so satisfied...

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | July 9, 2009 12:26 PM

Surely The Netherlands will push us to the brinker of disaster!

ISWYDT
Everybody: a big hans for Watchman!

Posted by: Doug Little | July 9, 2009 12:35 PM

For all those people going to Amsterdam there is a few things you need to do.

1. Have a drink at the Old Sailor Bar in the red light district. While you are there say hello to Renee the barman. Also if you are coming from the US he is fond of Baby Ray's Barbecue Sauce. I'm sure if you toss him a bottle he will give you a few free drinks.

2. Go to the Wynand Fockink bar - established 1639 it sells old dutch liquors and is pretty cool because it is so old.

3. Dampkring Coffee House - really cool interior - As seen in the Oceans 12 movie.

4. For the beer lovers De Bierkoning is an absolutely fantastic bottleshop (Party store) place to get all the Belgium Trappist ales (And when I mean all you know the one I'm talking about). Also can get the correct glasses for all the different beers.

Other than that just walk around the red light district and Leidseplein, there are many, many fantastic little spots to do just about anything, The flower market is pretty cool too.

Posted by: Tom Coward | July 9, 2009 12:44 PM

Finally, something from Faux News that is actually fair and balanced (well, close to anyway!).

Posted by: peter Hardman | July 9, 2009 12:48 PM

What a bunch of absolute crap..

I live in the Netherlands... we do not have marriage for more than 2 people, we do not practice infanticide but..

The Churches are still there..all the main parties have "xtian" affiliations..but it's true to say that religion and it's deluded herd are a minority and are ridiculed....but we also have 1million muslims in a country of 16.5 million and a good 50% of those mulims visit a mosque every week... and they hate the tolerant society..

But hey what we did i expect ..good reporting from a republican american news service... if I want news without any bias and with quality I watch the BBC...not an american news service..

Posted by: Watchman | July 9, 2009 12:51 PM

Trust the inestimable DeMilo to catch my silly little grace note. Day saved. ;-)

Sven, I suggest we delay discussion of "Big Hans" until after the children have gone to bed.

Posted by: Stu | July 9, 2009 12:54 PM

Hagelslag? Pfff... what I really miss are Hamka's, Grills and shoarma...

Posted by: Drosera | July 9, 2009 12:59 PM

Doug Little @103,

During the 38 years that I lived there I never did any of those things that you recommend. Must be for tourists only.

Posted by: Drosera | July 9, 2009 1:06 PM

Correction: I was referring to the numbered items on Doug’s list only.

Posted by: dogmeatIB | July 9, 2009 1:12 PM

See, we have to keep our children away from horrible things like those things that go on in Europe, otherwise we might end up with homosexuality, drug use, prostitution, suicide and other terrible things... oh the irony...

Posted by: Doug Little | July 9, 2009 1:16 PM

hagelslag is AMAZING!

Posted by: Bill Anderson | July 9, 2009 1:21 PM

Regarding the suicide pill, my thought is that suicide is justified in cases where the person will suffer a slow, painful death, or the person has discovered that his/her baby picture was used on ProLife Across America billboards.

Posted by: Stu | July 9, 2009 1:23 PM

The Dutch are lovely people, they even can do good food, but when it comes to stuff to put on toast they have issues.

At least most know well enough not to mix peanut butter and jelly. Seriously, wtf?

On the other hand, the Dutch (not this one though) do eat herring. Raw.

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 9, 2009 1:29 PM

For example, nobody is allowed to indulge in the highly unbiblical sin of buying wine before noon on Sundays.

Here in the UK you cannot buy wine, or any alcohol, before 10am on a Sunday.

Of course there is no one who would want to buy alcohol up and awake at the hour on Sunday anyway.

Posted by: uksceptic | July 9, 2009 1:34 PM

I love the nonsense about suicide pills.

"People are already talking about the idea."

Those people would be you Fox News and the idiots you represent.

Posted by: Doug Little | July 9, 2009 1:37 PM

Drosera,

Thanks for that, no I do like those things. My recommendations were more bar oriented. Got a favorite bar you liked/like drinking at (assuming that you drink of course). Speaking of bikes have you heard of the bar bike? that looks awesome and a little dangerous.

Posted by: Stephen P | July 9, 2009 1:43 PM

I'm confused about the comments on the Catholic Church being so strong in the Netherlands in the past... weren't the Dutch mainly Protestant

The provinces of North Brabant and Limburg were predominantly Catholic, the rest predominantly Protestant.

Posted by: Wildflower | July 9, 2009 1:47 PM

Curious, I found nothing wrong at all with anything that was presented... well, almost. Towards the end, the reporter says, and I'll paraphrase:

The next step will be a suicide pill for fun. It might still be years until then, but people are already talking about it.

Yeah? So are you, you frakking hypocritical, smug, arrogant, lying excuse for a reporter! Just now! And while it wouldn't change anything, any evidence that you didn't just pull that out of your arse to begin with?

I find this kind of dishonest spin highly offensive.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | July 9, 2009 1:54 PM

On the other hand, the Dutch (not this one though) do eat herring. Raw.

mmm.... herring.....

Posted by: Naat Puupke | July 9, 2009 1:59 PM

"... I think I love you."

Ik hou ook van jou, PZ!
(I love you too, PZ)

Posted by: Drosera | July 9, 2009 2:00 PM

Taking suicide pills for fun? That’s a one time experience, isn’t it? I vaguely recall that people go to Switzerland to obtain such pills. They are certainly not freely available in the Netherlands.

Posted by: tim Rowledge | July 9, 2009 2:03 PM

The pilgrims supposedly came to America to escape the religious strife and oppression back in Europe

Posted by: Rachel | July 9, 2009 2:05 PM

I'm curious about the numbers for the Netherlands' death with dignity program. The one in Oregon (where I live) is rather infrequently used. Last year, there were 88 prescriptions filled under the DWDA, and only 54 people took them. Counting six more people that had received the meds in 2007, there were 60 total deaths under the act. It works out to just over 19 per 10,000 deaths -- which seems to make any hysteria over the DWDA rather ridiculous.

Posted by: Porco Dio | July 9, 2009 2:09 PM

Don't believe that Holland is a liberal paradise for even a second... All the goodness achieved by previous "liberals" were actually done mostly out of ignorance and allot of fear of reprisal and most of it is now being undone in the typically sinister "Dutch way".

Persecution of foreigners by the average Dutch person is as high as it has ever been anywhere in Europe and no higher than it was at any time in the past... You might have heard of Holland being a sea of tolerance but you were only ever tolerated if you kept well and truly to yourself.

Don’t let the propaganda fool you... Foreigners were never really welcome in Holland and nor are they now... Never forget that the Dutch were super-efficient at shipping off their Jews to Hitler’s gas-chambers because they didn't like them very much... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#By_country

Even though my genes are 100% European I don't seem to be white enough for my neighbor who referred to me as "the tinted guy" to another neighbor - she doesn't have the balls to accuse me of being of any particular race against which she holds a grudge but the slur is telling enough.

I face endless harassment from the police who come to investigate complaints caused largely because the guy I rent a room to seems to have been unlucky enough to have had two negroid parents and this irritates the neighborhood no end.

We are thus met with the standard litany of complaints such as "music too loud" when neither of us own a stereo or a TV. The police, when questioned about the absence of any visits from neighbours to request some peace and quiet, told me that "things don't work like that any more" which simply means people are obviously too racist to come speak face-to-face with a nigger!

I shall not try defend my friend as this might give credence to any of the accusations being even remotely true!

Another complaint leveled at my black buddy is that he has "too many visitors" when nobody can define in even the remotest possible terms what this is supposed to mean.

This is what Holland is and always has been, a childish, vindictive finger-pointing society with its inner-Nazi lurking behind a very forced smile.

No need to mention that the above is a generalization and some Dutch do not fit this mold but they should not be permitted to stand as mascots for a society that is as diseased and rotten as any other.

Posted by: Porco Dio | July 9, 2009 2:17 PM

Excuse the double post!!!

Another thing: the Dutch Secret Service has been exposed for a 9-to-5 mentality and copy-pasting news reports as "intelligence" which was used to justify an invasion of Iraq.

Nice!!! So what did the SS do about this embarrassment? Yes!!! You guessed right! They searched the home of the reporter who broke the story but only after wire-tapping her. Apparently the Dutch SS can wire-tap anyone they want and without, any time they want.

The SS whistle-blower is safely behind bars for divulging "state secrets".

So, please tell me again why you think the Dutch are any different from any other nation? Really, explain it again.

Posted by: Hurf | July 9, 2009 2:22 PM

Yes, we sure are militantly secular with TWO christian parties in the government

Posted by: Martin | July 9, 2009 2:26 PM

I regard it as an honour, actually, that Fox News doesn't like us. I wouldn't wanna be liked by those hypocrites.

And PZ, many of us love you too!

Posted by: zomaar een Nederlander | July 9, 2009 2:31 PM

Some thoughts after watching the video and reading the comments...
It's funny how Fox can actually describe in tones of horror what they think is an appalling picture and the result is still that the Netherlands they're showing us is almost better than the real deal.
Suicide is already legal, or at least gedoogd, in most countries. Trying to commit suicide and then failing is another story.
Lots of people vote CDA (the Christian party) not because they're Christian but because of the whole norms and values. An empty phrase, but it sounds nice and people vote not with their minds but with their hearts, and sometimes less savoury parts of their anatomy that I'd rather not mention.
A lot of people vote for Geert Wilders because mainstream parties refuse to address the issues Dutch society faces. Conversely a lot of people abhor Geert Wilders much more than they should because they have been fed misinformation by the media and don't really understand what it's all about. (No, I didn't vote for Geert Wilders.)
The religious people who are still left in the Netherlands have the feeling that they've got to make up for something and do so in exaggerated piety. Like no-shops-open-on-Sundays piety. (As an aside, if your city is deemed a tourist attraction, that law doesn't apply in the entire commune, so I'm fine. But to add to the comedy, Almere got itself branded a tourist attraction for this reason.)
Also, contrary to what a poster above is saying, the Netherlands has a problem with Islam. The problem is this... 5% is a lot of people, they're not evenly distributed, we're nearing the point where they could swing the city votes and that would be bad. I know, because I've known several moderate (‘nice’) Muslims and the ideas in their heads are poison and pointing out why those ideas are abhorrent doesn't seem to get through to them. If we act quickly, we can all probably solve things quite nicely (like educate their kids thoroughly scientifically and secularly to name just one thing). If we don't, and the Muslims don't suddenly decide to change themselves (which they are not currently inclined to do) we'll have to start to evict people. But chances are that won't happen. From then on it can go three ways - lynchings or the Netherlands turn Islamic or both. And that is ignoring a potential Christian backlash, which despite our secularity is still possible. I'll have left long before that happens, but it'd still be a pity to see a good country go down the drain.
The healthcare system is basically the mess it's in because in the past people have been living above their standing in that respect. It would have gone sour even without privatisation and in some ways the privatisation was a reaction to the sour turning.
The recession may have hit, but most people I talk to actually don't notice it that much. The reason is that even though income went down, expenses in many cases went down as well, or had done so in the recent past.
Regarding the rudeness of the people and the rubbish on the streets, that depends on where you live I guess. I just love my city.
I've talked to someone who knew some of the researchers behind the rape statistic (they hadn't quite wrapped up their analysis, they feared it was 1 in 10) long before it hit the papers and I was truly horrified. She also said that given the demographics involved the researchers were afraid that rape is significantly underreported, both domestically and abroad. Also, I read somewhere that in the American army the number is about 4 in 10. Which got me thinking... what if even the 1 in 9 number is a lower bound? How many women are there, dragging such a burden as a secret with them, who never tell anyone and don't show up in the statistics? I think our attitude towards things like this needs a rethink.
Also, the weather sucks (except for today), the food is horrible (except poffertjes and drie-in-de-pan), and the papers lie as if they were printed. Oh wait, they are.

Posted by: TuxedoCartman | July 9, 2009 2:32 PM

I'm sorry, I thought it was going to be a FOX News slander segment; all I heard was a great ad for why I should move to the Netherlands.

Posted by: Drosera | July 9, 2009 2:34 PM

Porco Dio: I have nasty neighbors, therefore all neighbors are nasty. Great proof from anecdotal evidence (my own wife is 'coloured', so don’t say that I don’t know what I’m talking about).

That the Holocaust was relatively more disastrous in the Netherlands than in other European countries had more to do with the fact that there was a very efficient bureaucracy already in place when the Nazis took over, and that the country’s topography offers few opportunities to hide or escape, than that anti-semitism was worse here than in other countries. It was bad, definitely, but not worse than in Germany, Poland, or most other European countries at that time.

That said, there is certainly some truth in the saying that Dutch tolerance is often more like a kind of indifference.

Posted by: Haruhiist | July 9, 2009 2:46 PM

@Porco Dio:

I'm sorry you've had such a terrible time in the netherlands.
I do feel the need to speak in the defence of the Dutch, however.

You're right when you say that the Netherlands is not the giant haven of tolerance some make it out to be. Racism is a problem here as well. But I don't buy for a second that we are equally intolerant as any other country.

The childish fingerpointing you mention.. you're right, the dutch have a weird propensity to point out (moral) flaws in others.
But regarding the holocaust, you're definitely wrong. The reason there were so many jews deported in the netherlands is not about the amount of racists that were in the netherlands, but mostly because of the enormous bureaucratic system we had. The government had every citizen registered and that included such information as race. The germans were very eager to make use of this knowledge.
I'm not saying there were no dutch people helping the germans, but it simply wasn't the main reason.

Also, what 'typically sinister "Dutch way"'?

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 9, 2009 2:49 PM

That said, there is certainly some truth in the saying that Dutch tolerance is often more like a kind of indifference.

That is not a bad thing though.

The idea that the sex of the person your neighbour sleeps with is a matter of sublime indifference is rather appealing.

Posted by: Benny the Icepick | July 9, 2009 2:55 PM

Did anyone else chuckle at 1:04 when he said, "hit harder in the Netherlands?"

Posted by: Steve | July 9, 2009 3:01 PM

That is journalism??

How can I move to the Netherlands. Those people didn't look unhappy. They looked toasted... nicely toasted....

Posted by: Stu | July 9, 2009 3:04 PM

Yes, the proposal is SUCH a Death Cult idea.

Here's the first paragraph from Stephen's link:

"It seems to me beyond doubt that many elderly people would take great comfort in having a way available to exit life in an acceptable manner at a moment that - seeing what is left of it - seems appropriate to them."

Monster, I tell you!

Posted by: GMacs | July 9, 2009 3:08 PM

They looked toasted... nicely toasted....

More like baked.

Posted by: TheEngima23 | July 9, 2009 3:15 PM

Maybe once America's been nation for 433 years, we can start acting like them too...

Hey. I can be hopeful, can't I?

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 9, 2009 3:16 PM

Not sure what you mean there - it was a perfectly serious proposal, not any sort of experiment as far as I am aware. Dutch readers can check his own words.

Since we already have suicide pills, or at least can easily make them, what was there to propose.

My understanding is that issue was raised not in any expectation that people would produce suicide pills but to see how people would respond to the idea.

As I have said, pharmacology can already give us pills that will kills us painlessly and quickly.

Posted by: Stu | July 9, 2009 3:40 PM

Holland is so flat there was no place to hide" part really made me laugh hard

Really? Wow. You really might want to read a history book every now and then.

Where were all the reports of government records being burned to protect the identities of Jews?

Where your ignorant ass has not looked.

Truth is though, the Dutch didn't really do much, in fact they did nothing at all in terms of combating national-socialism

As a grandchild of two decorated members of the resistance, and two others who housed fugitives: fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

Sinister is certainly a word i could use to explain why he's got so many votes.

Oh yawn.

Say, just out of curiosity... what other countries have you lived in?

Posted by: Jan | July 9, 2009 3:45 PM

I 2nd Porco Dio opinion about muslims becoming a great problem in holland , like it is in germany, where I am from.

Although most of my best friends are muslims, mostly turkish people, it sometimes astonishes me, how a nice conversation can turn quiet ugly when it comes to matters of religion.

I criticize christianity quiet often and loudly but am very
careful when it comes to Islam. It just isn`t the same.
And the muslim population is growing much faster than any other group, so there will be problems ahead.

Another problem is, that it`s quiet difficult for politicians here to criticize islam, because they get branded as racist.

So there isn`t really any constructive criticizm of Islam (well, we have some guys like Ralph Giordano) but mostly the criticizm comes from rightwing nuts.

Sorry for going a little bit off topic.

Btw. I plan to move to Canada or Sweden.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | July 9, 2009 3:56 PM

Although most of my best friends are muslims

your argument would have looked less silly without that statement.

the problem with Germany is that any sort of criticism that isn't in a pre-approved category will get you pounced on. and it doesn't matter whether that's about being intolerant towards the religious, or making an ass of yourself by claiming that the unemployed are lazy.
Unfortunately, anything that can be even remotely construed as racism will get you pounced on extra quick and extra hard (a result of being paranoidally afraid of accidentally living up to the Evil German stereotype), so criticism of Islam is as big a no-no as criticism of Israel is.

*sigh*

Posted by: C,Cain | July 9, 2009 4:13 PM

So, let me get this straight:

All ~16,500,000 Dutch people are racist because your neighbors are racist bastards. Also they are anti-semites because their grandparents didn't have the presence of mind to destroy over 100,000 files containing the identities of the Jews living there (Gosh, what do you expect? It was 1940, the Netherlands were actually invaded and occupied and the active part of the genocide didn't even happen until 1941.)?

Yes, I can totally see that the Netherlands are populated by racists and anti-semites. And they are no better than any other society, because there are no shades of gray.

Posted by: JGG | July 9, 2009 4:21 PM

> So, please tell me again why you think the Dutch are any different from any other nation? Really, explain it again.

Because of the things that this blogpost is about? Rather secular, rights for gay people, happy stoners, pretty decent health system, proper education, etc. etc.

Also, I do not recognize myself in your post. None of the people I know fit the story either.

I agree that some things are being changed for the worse (too much government intervention, like the smoking laws), which is, unfortunately, largely because of the annoying christian 'values' that alot of the politicians seem to want to force on everyone. The largest party actually would like to see many obtained liberties criminalized again, like marijuana. And we still have one party that doesn't allow women into their ranks, because they think women need to stay at home (must be one of those great christian values again).

Luckily they have mostly failed to this point whenever they want to make another silly law based on their silly faith. I want nothing to do with it.

Posted by: Zaheer | July 9, 2009 4:32 PM

They're always good for a chuckle or two...

Posted by: Stu | July 9, 2009 4:48 PM

#175 -- Thank you once again Stu for showing us all exactly what kind of people the Dutch are.

Self righteous

Yep.

indignant

When faced with a liar, yes.

denialist

Wait, what? Did I ever deny that there are racists in Holland? Half my family had a heart attack when my niece brought home her Turkish boyfriend.

... and, oh-so-perfect they dare not be criticised...

Oh, we're touchy alright. But it helps to be accurate.

Especially by the likes of this here kanker buitenlander...

Yeah, that's exactly right.

*rolleyes*
[Loose translation: "fucking immigrant"]

By the way, you seem to have absorbed quite a bit of that self-righteousness and indignation. Or are you in denial about that?

Loveable when you compliment them

So what do you do when people compliment you? Spit in their face?

and awful when you point out that they are just as humanly flawed as any other culture on our little planet...

There is no flawless culture. The Dutch are more tolerant of certain things. That's what this entire post was about, remember? You're the one that brought racism into it.

Please be so polite as the next Dutch guy and point me in the direction of a "history book" where my "ignorant ass has not [yet] looked"

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Het_koninkrijk_der_Nederlanden_in_de_tweede_wereldoorlog

Here's a Wiki taste:

"...on February 25, 1941, the Communist Party of the Netherlands called for a general strike, the February strike, in response to the first Nazi razzia on Amsterdam's Jewish population. A street in the centre of Amsterdam would be cordoned off and the Jewish people would be taken away to Germany. The people requested the return of these people for they were Dutch citizens. The Germans response was that they were not Dutch but Jewish. The next day city hall in Amsterdam was blown up in order to destroy all records."

cozyness (gezelligheid?)

Gezelligheid doesn't translate.

The memory of your grandparents should not be dishonoured

But let me guess, you're gonna do it anyway.

however you are one of 15 million Dutch I have spoken to whose forefathers fit this very same profile.

No they fucking don't, that's the entire point. You contradicted yourself in a single sentence there. Calm down and think things over before you post.

Just clarify this for me will you: was it the grandparents on your mother's side that were decorated resistance fighters and your father's parents that hid the fugitives or was it the other way around?

The other way around. What a weird question.

foreigners are welcome in Holland if they just STFU

If the alternative is this type of whining, I would totally agree.

and stick to themselves

What seems to drive most of the resentment is young people coming over specifically to engage in crime and/or insistence of sticking to a fundamental Muslim way of life.

and obey their Dutch Masters... Seems very Nazi,

Godwin, you lose.

Please leave me and my horse alone though, neither of us are into buggery.

You keep a horse in your house? That might be why your neighbors don't like you.

Anyway, have you ever lived anywhere except the Netherlands?

Posted by: Stu | July 9, 2009 4:56 PM

but your idiotic attempt at painting the Dutch as somehow worse than everybody else is fucking stupid

Want to bet there's a very good reason he never answered my question about living anywhere else?

Posted by: Haruhiist | July 9, 2009 5:12 PM

@Porco Dio:

The memory of your grandparents should not be dishonoured however you are one of 15 million Dutch I have spoken to whose forefathers fit this very same profile.

Anyway, for someone who seems to think tolerance is a good thing, you do generalize a lot.. All Dutch people are nazis? Because a lot of our grandfathers were too afraid of their lives to burn down all records of jews? really?

Posted by: Last Hussar | July 9, 2009 5:41 PM

Porco-
All the countries that were invaded by the Reich gave up their Jewish populations. Fat Mayors in little towns for whom the job description was 'Eating large dinners at civic functions' suddenly found they were at the wrong end of a rifle.

Why were so many civilians so unwilling to fight back against a large heavily armed army?

Oradour-sur-Glane to found out what happens.

Posted by: Stu | July 9, 2009 5:46 PM

Oradour-sur-Glane to found out what happens.

Or, for that matter, Putten.

Posted by: pete | July 9, 2009 5:54 PM

I didn't have time to read the comments so, I apologize if I'm rehashing old ground.

It's important to point out that all those awful secular ideas have made life in Europe better. It's a shame that FAUX and their sheeple can't realize that we can learn a lot from those nations that have embraced secularism.

After all, they have experienced the horrors of religious war and religions being hijacked by rabid nationalism. It seems to me that secularism is the only rational course.

Posted by: Ted Raymond | July 9, 2009 5:58 PM

Excellent place to live. If Palin is ever elected, I will be sure to move there. Imagine a place where the dim-wits are marginalized.

Posted by: NoGurus | July 9, 2009 6:01 PM

Thanks PZ for bringing back so many happy memories of my Dutch girlfriend, who traveled across Europe with my by train and backpack. She was a practicing Baptist by the way (don't ask me why - lots of Baptists over there). It was her idea of course to take in a live sex show, and I am sure the Fox reporter probably had a good time taking in a show or two himself, just to check out how vile and disgusting it all is. Last seen the reporter was smoking a dooby and heading for the red light district, because, you know, his wife doesn't do THOSE things. Too bad Mark Sanford, Ted Haggard, Senator Ensign from Nevada, Jimmy Swaggart, Rush Limbaugh, the politician caught in the toilet from Idaho, and all the other conservatives caught with their pants down in the U.S. didn't get their groove on in Holland. Now they would have nothing to be ashamed about, and nothing to preach against. Ah, but then it would be a peaceful world, wouldn't it, without "sin." We can't have that, can we?

Posted by: Somnolent Aphid | July 9, 2009 6:17 PM

and i've been spending all this time planning my escape to france. i should have followed spinoza's lead.

Posted by: tripwire | July 9, 2009 7:19 PM

I think Fox News forgot to mention:
- Lower murder rates;
- Lower teenage pregnancy rates;
- Lower drug addiction rates;
- Lower poverty rates;
- etc, etc

But that's the price we have to pay for being the godless, sex-shopping, gay-tolerating, permanently drunk bastards that we are!

* Neemt nog een biertje, proost!

Posted by: Cath the Canberra Cook | July 9, 2009 7:30 PM

Doug Little, hagelslag is not quite the same thing as fairy bread.

Fairy bread = white bread and butter, cut in triangles, with multicoloured sprinkles. No flavouring, it's just coloured sugar. A popular children's party food in Australia.

Hagelslag = chocolate sprinkles. Definite flavour, comes in milk and dark choc. There's also vlokken (flakes) and muisjes (aniseed pink & white sprinkles, "mice"). And gestampte muisjes, a powdered version of muisjes. (Squashed mice!)

Ik hou van gestampte muisjes. (Dag, Nederlanders! Ik was een jaar of dertig geleden op school in 't Gooie. Het spijt me dat ik spreek nu niet zo goed.)

Posted by: Willem van Oranje | July 9, 2009 7:59 PM

@ #28

As a dutchman, I think I would have known about talks of a suicide pill :D The man is just flatout lying..

Actually, he is talking about the "pil van Drion" or "Drion's pill". But it's a really old story from 1991. Nothing has come of it after Drion wrote that op-ed.

Posted by: Joe | July 9, 2009 8:09 PM

Ooh, ooh, I know this one! "Blake's Law!" ding ding ding! Fundamental secularists!

On another side though, they spit out gay marriage, low church attendance, euthanasia, decriminalized drugs, and secular politics as if they are bad things. Also, i really wanted to hear some sad violin music as the catholic spokesman was whining about lowering church attendance.

Posted by: JK | July 9, 2009 8:13 PM

@Susan: what you write about public transportation is partly true. Yes, in cities people often only use their bike or take the bus/train. But roads are full and blocked, and traffic jams are consired normal. When you turn on the radio on the way to work in the morning, the first thing you will hear is how long traffic jams are. But yeah, when you live in the city, you only need a bike :-)
And about the health care system, it is good, but waiting lists are very long for certain treatments. Plus, in Belgium, you can visit your doctor every time every day, while here the doctor only has time very early in the morning, you need to have an appointment, etc. Maybe sounds good for Americans, but the system in Belgium is MUCH better :-)

Posted by: Joe | July 9, 2009 8:33 PM

Oh, and re: "Not mentioning the Christian roots of Europe"

Why would you want to mention that? Governments tend to leave out the bad parts of history when they can. That's why you don't see people searching for recognition of the "slave-holding roots" of American history (well, mostly).

Posted by: Chris | July 9, 2009 9:01 PM

Militant Secularist Netherlands - Equal rights for gays, Rights for the elderly and terminally ill, and rights for one to do with one's body what one please.

Land of the free? - ::Cricket chirp::

Posted by: SC, OM | July 9, 2009 9:24 PM

It's much more useful to analyze the social roots of resistance anywhere than to try to compare and contrast nations in terms of relative resistance (though it's important to recognize and honor those who resisted).

Posted by: Love F | July 9, 2009 11:44 PM

Living in Sweden it is hard to see how anyone buys into Fox. It is so obviously bullshit and biases.

Posted by: Joreth | July 10, 2009 2:30 AM

This video had an amazing knack for hitting all the good points! I had previously only heard about the lax drug laws, and since I'm not interested in recreational drugs, I mostly didn't pay attention, but now, thanks to this video, I totally want to visit (and maybe move to) the Netherlands!

Thanks, Fox News, for bringing this wonderful nation to my attention!

Posted by: advertisinglies | July 10, 2009 4:17 AM

#221 - I think the reason so many people here embrace Fox is that it's a "news source" which creates an atmosphere where bigotry and misinformation for the sake of a specific (almost always fundamentalist christian) agenda is presented as acceptable.

I was told from a young age that my country was a progressive place where everyone was welcomed and accepted. Entities like Fox news seem to suggest otherwise - that America is only interested in maintaining a kind of social acceptance. The existence of Fox makes stupidity socially acceptable and so whoose! From all walks of life come the moronic masses, completely unconcerned with truth and relieved to have a news source that validates their troglodytic mindset and tells them, "It's ok to be a stupid bigot."

Posted by: Kevin | July 10, 2009 5:00 AM

I wish they would interview one of those "militant secularists."

Posted by: Anja | July 10, 2009 6:25 AM

When he got to infanticide i had to giggle.
Hysterical report, obviously the reporter did not bother to investigate Dutch society.

Unfortunately, secular is not the state of the Netherlands. Many schools are religious (even though not fanatically practised), there is a church on almost every corner (thankfully, not filled to the brim) and too many people while not going to church will admit to a vague feeling of "there probably is some deityish being out there".

At this moment the religious content of our government is quite high but in a few years that might be different. I live in hope: we regularly have elections.

Posted by: Heleen | July 10, 2009 7:39 AM

The report is ignorant enough to show a museum (Mauritshuis) when talking about parliament.
The reporter should have gone to Barneveld: that is the bible-belt place where parents have to fight to get a non-religious secondary school established.

#207:
Klein muisjes hebben kleine wensjes
beschuitjes met gestampte mensjes.

Posted by: Strasbourg | July 10, 2009 7:54 AM

@58
"Northern Europe is wonderful. Logic is great, God is not. I wish I was able to speech conversational Dutch, then I would definitely look into moving..."

If that is you only concern...most Dutch people are fluent in English and many of them are fluent in either German or French in addition (In my opnion the most polyglott country in the world).

In addition they are nice people, à la "live and let live".
You get along there very easily if you respect their way (one thing that you still have to teach to many of my fellow germans).

I allways enjoy going there...

Posted by: Rob S | July 10, 2009 8:59 AM

So Holland is just prostitution, dope smokers, evil gays and child killers. Not a word about the tulips or the windmills.

Fox news, a perfect example of how to talk bollocks to the stupid.

Posted by: Porco Dio | July 10, 2009 9:08 AM

#233 More Misconceptions and Myths About the Dutch.

@58
"Northern Europe is wonderful. Logic is great, God is not. I wish I was able to speech conversational Dutch, then I would definitely look into moving..."
If that is you only concern...most Dutch people are fluent in English and many of them are fluent in either German or French in addition (In my opnion the most polyglott country in the world).
In addition they are nice people, à la "live and let live".
You get along there very easily if you respect their way (one thing that you still have to teach to many of my fellow germans).
I allways enjoy going there...

It is in no uncertain terms expected that you learn Dutch immediately after you decide to stay here more than 3 months. If you fail to do so you will be met with a form of derision that the Dutch have perfected to the point of making new immigrants hate them for it.

You're fine as a tourist not speaking the language but if you plan on staying you will either learn to speak it well or be laughed at, mocked and for the rest of your life be held in contempt for not integrating.

The "live and let live" myth is perhaps the most frustrating. You are only free to do as you like in Holland if you confirm strictly to the norms of the Dutch society. It is not enough to simply "respect their way" you really need to become one of them (which you can't) or will be forever told that if you don't like it in Holland then GTFO.

Come live here for a while and you will understand.

Posted by: Daniel | July 10, 2009 9:42 AM

This is curious, since the BBC just had a report that the Netherlands are becoming more conservative.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8140821.stm

Posted by: Arno | July 10, 2009 10:51 AM

And the contempt for faux news over here (at least with me ;-) ) is completely mutual.

Gotta rush now, gonna take my lovely liberal wife to a coffee shop, take a bath in pure coke, visit some hookers and watch a couple of gays either getting married or gang-banging on the street, you never know what's it gonna be with those guys, do you? I guess we'll finish our night with a suicide pill, so don't expect me to be back :-)

Posted by: Stu | July 10, 2009 10:56 AM

Okay, last time PD. You're really too dumb to spend this much time on (no, that's not rude, that's a statement of fact).

First off, if you've lived in the UK, Germany, Austria, Thailand, China and figure Holland is the most racist, well, good luck. I call bullshit.

There are ladies behind windows in several locations in Germany.

And?

Assisted suicide is not illegal in Germany, Belgium or Switzerland.

And?

Holland’s coffee shops are filled with foreigners so there is no space for more unlimited Dutch pride there…

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Do you have any idea how crazy you are starting to sound?

and it’s just as easy to smoke a joint at home without any kind of punishment in any country within a thousand miles of here.

Wow! Are you saying that you can do drugs at home anywhere? That is an amazing statement! I can't believe it! My eyes are open now!

*headdesk*

Holland is not special.

Yes it is. Every country is.

Hash and Marijuana is NOT legal in Holland.

No, it is tolerated for personal use.

It is NOT legal to smoke a joint in public in Holland and transgression is subject to a fine.

Yes, and I think this was last enforced in 1972.

But this is no different from most EU countries.

Bull fucking shit. Tell you what, you blaze one up in front of a carabinieri and get back to me.

Holland is not special.

Then leave it.

Holland is advertised as being tolerant and liberal to repressed people everywhere

You're fucking insane. I don't know where this came from, but you need help. Seriously.

not many flowers are being sold this year so the Dutch economy of 2009 is practically non existent.

Ah, yes, because that's the entire economy. Dude, when you're in a hole this deep, stop digging. Your ignorance is shining through like a beacon.

One would expect that an über-race such as the Dutch

What the hell is wrong with you?

They should just let the companies fail and start anew.

I see your knowledge of economics is as deep as that of the Netherlands.

My Dutch colleague told me this morning that the Dutch are “structureel onbeschoft” (have ingrained rudeness)

Well, if he says so, I'm convinced!

and that they are just as selfish as the next race…

Ah, what a nice Freudian slip there. "Race"?

Look, we know you had racist neighbors that pissed in your Wheaties and killed your dog. We know that you have concluded that that makes every Dutch person a Nazi going back three generations (especially compared to the Germans and Austrians, right?) Please stop pretending that there is any rational basis for these feelings.

come live in Holland for a decade and you will find this out for yourself.

Yet oddly enough, neither me or any of the dozen or so Dutch people commenting on this thread agree.

in many ways Holland has a lot less to offer than the surrounding countries

[Citation needed]

As for bringing Godwin into it, their less than sterling defense of their very own golden tolerance and liberalism is proof that it is but a myth

You have no clue whatsoever what Godwin's Law is, do you?

They will be cheering and hailing Geert Wilders in unison when he comes to power to rid Holland of its immigrants

Funny, almost every Dutch person I know was embarrassed as hell with the PVV getting 17% in the EU elections. They must all be lying.

as can be seen by the typical comments in this thread which further justify my stance.

You have come in here to whine and lie. Getting called on it justifies your irrational hatred of the Dutch?

Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

They will all just follow like sheep and protect their own interests like the cowards that they are…

Yes, because only cowards protect their own interests.

I advised you yesterday to think about what you're saying before you post it. This is why.

because the Dutch are human plain and simple.

Umm, yes...?

Dammit I can't believe I got sucked into answering your loony ranting. Oh well.

Posted by: corpus.callosum | July 10, 2009 12:57 PM

PorcoDio, man...

As a fellow buitenlander in Holland I have to say I've read your comments and I really don't get where you're coming from.

I've been struggling with Dutch for about 8 months now and am just about getting to the point where I can handle supermarket, post office, doctor's receiptionist etc. without having to switch to English. I'll try to phrase almost every request in Dutch but that very often fails and I end up somewhere in between. I've found that Dutch service people respond to my bumbling attempts with amusement, politeness, patience in 99% of cases. The other 1% is no more or less bad customer service than you'd get anywhere and says nothing about linguistic intolerance from the Dutch.

In the case of my Dutch friends; the overwhelming response to even token attempts to learn Dutch are positive, not condescending. The only time I've heard some natives get uppity is when referring to foreigners who have come here intending to live for several years, who clearly don't have (and have never had) any intention of learning Dutch. The reason they get uppity about this is because it is rude.

Mate, this country isn't perfect but neither is it awful! What grinds your gears so much about it?

Posted by: Robert | July 11, 2009 6:14 AM

@ Matt Penfold

There are a few places licensed to sell alcohol before 10am on Sundays. Ten minutes from where I'm typing the 24 hour petrol station attached to a non-24 hour Sainsburys is licensed all day, 365 days a year, including Christmas & Easter. From midnight til about six am every Sunday the forecourt is full of taxis taking revellers to buy booze for after-club partying. You just need to know where to look.

Posted by: Porco Dio | July 11, 2009 10:51 AM

#244

Right, the 15 million other people are supposed to learn your language.

Why is it then advertised that you don’t need to learn Dutch because everyone speaks English? Because the Ducth are liars. That’s why.

Do you seriously think that "live and let live" is a blank check?

It is certainly advertised as so – so which part of it don’t I understand? Reality speaks of different truths. Live and let live is NOT a valid aspect of Dutch society in 2009. The Dutch are liars.

You benefit from that society with every breath you take: Health care, social security, low crime rates, infrastructure, availability of food, job opportunities, freedom of religion, the law protecting your rights and enabling you to enforce them...the list goes on and on.

This argument is as invalid as it is old and the reason is thus: these benefits which you trumpet are the contribution of back-breaking labour and a civil service which is largely contributed to by darkies. Your beautiful white skin is easily recognizable in a sea of brown when you go to a farm, see a building site, visit your local council, tax or customs offices. I bet you hate seeing this…

In reality it is that Dutch people that are the leechers – the Dutch who proclaim an inalienable right to these benefits. Most foreigners understand that these benefits are worked hard for - and earned.

I pay more taxes that 80% of the Dutch so I pay through the nose for these benefits. I also work damn spankin’ hard for it too! I don’t see any Dutch people in my company making 16 hour days. Nay, it’s only foreigners that can be spotted here after 17:30. Always has been so, always will be. You see, foreigners work damn hard in your country for these benefits but the selfish Dutch consider it a birthright and not that they are expected to work hard for it.

But we will see. We will learn the hard lessons that reality teaches. Now that the molly-coddled Ducth are facing tough economic times do think they will emulate the hard-working ethic of immigrants which will undoubtedly see them better through hardship? Or will they just resent foreigners more for it? Time will tell, but my money is on the latter.

Where do you think that comes from? Are you so stupid that you think those properties aren't deeply linked to the society and it's core values?

Aha, and this is the crux of my argument indeed. If the Ducth think that they hold a monopoly on tolerance and liberalism, which they most certainly think they do, then they only hold it only by proxy. One cannot, on the one hand, accept that the ideals of the Golden Age that formed this thinking are still “deeply linked” to the current Dutch society while, on the other hand, that colonionalism, slavery, apartheid and their disgusting and overwhelming capitulation with the Nazi’s is not so linked.

Nobody’s perfect, so stop pretending you are so.

Posted by: Gerard | July 11, 2009 12:27 PM

To: Porco Dio

The Dutch are so intelligent to detect that you are too stupid to deserve to live in an wonderful country like the Netherlands. It's simple to kick you out, but is is much more rewarding to let you believe that you don't like the Netherlands so you'll stay away by yourself.

Personally, I don't think we're so free. Our politicians are lyars too, there is no objective reason to ban drugs, but we still do, there is no reasoon to give religious people extra rights, but we still do.

.
But we're a few steps further than most coutry's.

Posted by: Gerard | July 11, 2009 12:53 PM

What argument? That you dont't like holland? That's ok.

Posted by: Gerard | July 11, 2009 1:53 PM

Americans say they're the best country in the world. That's only true if you believe in the propaganda. So what's your problem with Dutch propaganda?

Posted by: Chas | July 11, 2009 5:22 PM

Dog bless the Dutch! Thankfully most people there decide to think for themselves for a change. Maybe the USA will get there someday...

Posted by: El Guerrero del Interfaz | July 11, 2009 9:15 PM

It seems that PD is projecting in his assessment of the language bit.

I know it's anecdotal but mine is as good as his. And, from my point of view, it's just the contrary.

I know quite a bit of Dutch although it's only one of my "secondary" languages. I read it, speak and such enough for understanding but I'm certainly not a native. Well, what happens to me in Holland very frequently is that, when I have some difficulty expressing myself or understanding, most people switch to English (or to French sometimes as my accent in Dutch is more French than something else). Something similar happens to Spanish people in Portugal (but not in the Dutch speaking part of Belgium but that's another story).

And I interpret that as a show of courtesy from the part of the Dutch. Just like I try to express myself in their language for the same reason. It's a shame that PD feels so strongly against the Dutch but it seems that the problem is more his. Because it does not look like much agree with him.

Posted by: Porco Dio | July 12, 2009 7:27 AM

Thanks Wasd,

I like that site (and history too) so it will take a while to get through but i will learn lots of nice new juicy facts.

The first question I have is this: In 1940 was de identificatieplicht ingevoerd... Joden kregen een persoonsbewijs uitgereikt met een grote J erop. (Compulsory identification was laid down in 1940... Jews received one with a big J printed on it.)

Seeing that the anti-jewish propaganda was already rife in Holland in the 30's where were the mass demonstrations against this new law?

The law was passed in March 1940 and the germans only invaded in May. It was not until the following year once the occupation was well entrenched that systematic persecution of the jews really started.

So please link again to somewhere showing quotes and extracts about jewish protectionism that will no doubt show how wonderfully tolerant and defensive of jews they were.

Those same people were the proxy holders of dutch golden age tolerance and freedom from religious persecution...

Posted by: G | July 12, 2009 9:12 AM

@Porco Dio

You are right; the Dutch are human.
With all their faults and flaws, but especially hypocrite way to like to see themselves as tolerant and nice.

I'm Dutch and I have to agree with you that the 'live and let live"-policy is no longer available in Holland.
I'm afraid that a rather large portion of the Maroccan youth has depleted us of that feeling.

Which leads me to the following question (and I absolutely do not intend to offend you):
Do you look like a young Moroccan male?

Posted by: Tom | July 14, 2009 4:06 PM

Porco Dio "The first question I have is this: In 1940 was de identificatieplicht ingevoerd... Joden kregen een persoonsbewijs uitgereikt met een grote J erop. (Compulsory identification was laid down in 1940... Jews received one with a big J printed on it.)

Seeing that the anti-jewish propaganda was already rife in Holland in the 30's where were the mass demonstrations against this new law?

The law was passed in March 1940 and the germans only invaded in May. It was not until the following year once the occupation was well entrenched that systematic persecution of the jews really started."
This is incorrect. The law was proposed in March 1940 by Lentz but was rejected because it was deemed against dutch tradition. Lentz had been promoting it since 1936. The law proposed did not single out Jews. After the German invasion in May 1940, the law was enacted in October 1940. In 1941 the identification passes (with the J) were introduced. And even if we take the harshest judgments regarding dutch complicity with the Jewish persecution into account, this was a year before the "endlösung" became common knowledge.

Your statement that the dutch before the war were actively antisemitic is contradictory to the fact that the dutch "National Socialistic Movement" (the dutch fascist party) declined in popularity when it became more actively anti-semitic (in 1936-1937). Public servants were forbidden to join the party and dutch catholic and protestant leaders forbade there flock from becoming members.

As I said before, the dutch failure to protect the Jewish population is more likely a combination of incompetence and (willful?) naivety rather than outright malice. The dutch Jewish Counsel, especially perhaps the tragic figures of Asscher and Cohen, is illustrative of this. The Jewish Counsel helped a lot in the deportation of their own people.

Porco Dio: "So please link again to somewhere showing quotes and extracts about jewish protectionism that will no doubt show how wonderfully tolerant and defensive of jews they were."
Easy enough, but you already have a link with quite a lot of those, so you can find them yourself. I can focus on only the positive things and you on only the negative, but that won't get anyone anywhere. It's a silly exercise of isolated facts.

Truth is, the dutch should have done more, starting before the war when Jewish refugees were refused entry into the Netherlands. Europeans should have done more, given that only the french seem to have really welcomed Jewish refugees before the war started.

And yes, Jews weren't fully accepted by other groups. But than, this was symptomatic of the whole of dutch society, which was broadly segregated into socialist/communist, liberal, catholic and protestant groups that mostly lived next to each other, instead of with each other. Even after the war, my father was actively discouraged from playing with kids from a different protestant denomination than his own. Before the war, this segregation was even stronger.

Basically, the Netherlands was far from a haven of tolerance back then. Big deal, I live in the Netherlands now.

Porco Dio: "Those same people were the proxy holders of dutch golden age tolerance and freedom from religious persecution..."
I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean.

Posted by: Tim | July 16, 2009 2:36 PM

[godwin]The dutch have always been a strange people and WWII created a rather interesting dichotomy: The Dutch were the only country to have their own SS regiment: SS Nordland, but their resistance was also amongst the highest in the occupied nations.[/godwin]

I play rugby in Leiden in the Netherlands, and we often have guys come over and work and play. They have to instruct people to speak to them in Dutch, as everybody sees them as an ideal opportunity to practice their english on.

Also, don't hate on the herring! Raw herring and chopped onoins ftw!