Pharyngula

Posted by: MikeTheInfidel | July 19, 2009 11:34 AM

Fake, shopped, doctored, etc. Clearly. Since we all know he's really Cthulhu in disguise.

Posted by: Chris Ray | July 19, 2009 11:36 AM

I posed a photo of Obama's birth announcement from the August 13th, 1961 issue of the Honolulu Advertiser on my blog a while back. URL in the name!

Posted by: Simon C. | July 19, 2009 11:37 AM

Once again, the liberal media clouds the hidden agenda of Democrats to strip us of our rights by faking the birth certificate of Barrack HUSSEIN Obama.

Damn, I can't say that sentence out loud more than once before laughing at how stupid it sounds. How can FOX journalists say things like that seriously?

Posted by: DingoJack | July 19, 2009 11:42 AM

Simon - congenital humour bypass* - DJ
*Think of all the idiotic things FOX journalists say only to claim later 'it was just a joke'. Perhaps the very concept of humour (or any real human emotion) is beyond their capacity to understand.

Posted by: Michael Fonda | July 19, 2009 11:44 AM

You stole that from me!

Posted by: dAHAN | July 19, 2009 11:47 AM

SURE!!! THIS, ALONG WITH TEH TWO HAWAIIAN NEWSPAPERS THAT NOTE HIS BIRTH JUST GO TO SHOW HOW DEEP THE CONSPIRACY GOES! EVERYONE KNOWS THE THE MSM, COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES, GOVERNMENT WORKERS, INCLUUDING THE BIRTH REORDS DEPARTMENTS ARE RUN BY THE LIBERAL "I HATE AMERICA' AGENDA. SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK! DO YOU WANT TO BE A SOCIALIST, LIKE CANADA!!!!! COME ON PEOPLE! OPEN YOUR EYES!!!

Posted by: Simon C. | July 19, 2009 11:47 AM

@ DJ - So they are really robots unable of human emotions... Incredible, we should write a book about that!

"ROBOT FOX : How the Republican Party Replaces Human Journalists by Their Robotic Counterparts."

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 19, 2009 11:50 AM

When Kwak sees this his head will hopefully explode.

Posted by: catta | July 19, 2009 11:54 AM

Sadly, they're ahead of you on that one and have been for months.
When presented with this, any citizenship-denialist worth his salt will point out to you that "a certificate of live birth is not the same as the birth certificate we want to see. Try again." It doesn't annoy them, they've already dismissed it.
(Before the flaming starts: I have no doubts about Obama's citizenship and I think the whole argument is a colossal, neuron-rotting waste of time used by people helplessly grasping for anything to complain about in lieu of actual arguments. Just sayin' -- they've all been shown this very document a million times over. Doesn't even get a rise out of them anymore, just makes 'em feel smugly superior in their seekrit knowledges!)

Posted by: Refuse to Beleive | July 19, 2009 11:56 AM

Yes, it annoys us that you post a fake birth certificate. Until, you get the original that is Hawaii courthouse, we'll never take you seriously. Besides, many illegals have been declared legally born here by having a birth certificate in Hawaii. A number of years ago, that was not uncommon.

Also, the font is not correct on this copy. Clearly is was not done by a typewriter as was the original. Can we please see the original? Besides can we really trust the words of an illegal Muslim father and a racidal leftists hippy mother to be honest?

C'mon people get real. This is a fake document. I want to go into the courthouse in Hawaii and see the ORIGINAL birth certificate that was made by a typewriter in 1951. Is that too much to ask?

Besides I want to give the delivery doctor a lie detector test as well. It wouldn't hurt to giver others surrounding this controvery a lie detector test as well. If they all pass, I'll believe the hawaii born story. If not, well, looks like we got us a little illegal alien in the white house.

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 19, 2009 11:59 AM

That is a poe right ?

Posted by: catta | July 19, 2009 12:02 PM

See? There's exhibit A doing exactly what I expected. So far into the famous Egyptian river that he can't spell "believe".
Also: lie detectors. Muahahahaha! Haaa.... too funny.

Posted by: ursulamajor | July 19, 2009 12:04 PM

I truly think that very few people that say this stuff about Obama really believe it, but this is the only ammo they can get their mitts on. They think if they say all these things long enough and loud enough, the stupid people will finally believe it is true. Then majority will rule. Problem is that they are all those "stupid people" in the first place and it's all a denial of reality. They just want that damn "uppity ni**er" to go away.
It works much the same with religion.

Posted by: Agi Hammerthief | July 19, 2009 12:08 PM

so has this been fotochopped to be re-used in a nigerian scam letter yet?

Posted by: DLC | July 19, 2009 12:09 PM

Oh please. can't we just let this dumb non-issue die ?

Posted by: mkb | July 19, 2009 12:10 PM

For Ramses:

A link about FOX News idiocy: http://www.newshounds.us/2009/07/14/fox_news_legitimizes_birthers.php

Posted by: Todd | July 19, 2009 12:10 PM

I'm afraid the Birthers have long since moved on from the birth certificate. Like anti-vaxxers, they've got the goalposts moving about about 120mph down the highway. The current rational is that Obama renounced his citizenship in 1981, when he traveled to Pakistan. Of course, it was debunked within seconds, but those goalposts are still moving.

Posted by: JThompson | July 19, 2009 12:13 PM

But it says "Any Alterations Invalidate This Certificate" right there on the bottom! Then they altered it with a black magic marker! Clearly a fake!
Actually, I suspect their "arguments" against this will be even stupider than that.

Man I hate conservatives.

@ursulamajor: I suspect quite a lot of them believe it.
Conservatives are stupid. (I just got through arguing with my dad who claims "Bush was a great president. Having a democratic congress is what messed him up.")

Posted by: JT | July 19, 2009 12:15 PM

I might as well throw this in here too.

Bill Maher finally figured out why America lost its shit over Michael Jackson's death. Because America is Michael Jackson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwfizB1OVGA&feature=related

Posted by: Marcus | July 19, 2009 12:18 PM

But Obama is ALSO eligible for British citizenship. Kenya was a British protectorate which qualifies his father for a British passport. Anyone, born anywhere, with a British father (strangely a British mothers doesn't count) is eligible for British citizenship.

That not to say he isn't a US citizen as he most obviously is. Just that once he's done his 8 years here I think he'd make a great Prime Minister.

Posted by: Hank Roberts | July 19, 2009 12:22 PM

Uh, oh
http://www.grimmy.com/images/MGG_Archive/MGG_2009/MGG0714.gif

Posted by: TheDefenestrator | July 19, 2009 12:24 PM

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

How's this?

Posted by: intelligenceresigned | July 19, 2009 12:24 PM

I, for one, welcome our new non-natural born overlord.

Posted by: intelligenceresigned | July 19, 2009 12:27 PM

I, for one, welcome our new non-natural born overlord.

Posted by: Technogeek | July 19, 2009 12:30 PM

Behold, for I have found the real birth certificate!

http://j.photos.cx/2wqrjpy-97a.gif

Posted by: XD | July 19, 2009 12:39 PM

Besides I want to give the delivery doctor a lie detector test as well.

Wingnut: Doctor Akana, did you, on August the fourth, 1961, help deliver Barrack Hussain Obama, the president of the United States, unto the world?

Doctor: How the fuck should I know? I helped deliver hundreds of babies that year. He didn't come out of his mother's vagina with a glowing halo. He didn't bear some bizarrely memorable birth-mark. His mother's first actions weren't to grab me by the neck and say "mark my words, this child will be elected president in the year 2009. Go write that in your diary, NOW". I've delivered thousands of children in my decades as a doctor. I'm expected to remember them all?

{lie detector needle stays put}

Wingnut: He's lying. He's obviously in on it. Or he is a robotic replacement of the real doctor, constructed by Obama in the future and sent back to protect his lie. Which means that Obama murdered the real doctor!

etc, etc,

Posted by: AJ Milne | July 19, 2009 12:41 PM

Hee hee. The part I can't believe is that actual birthers exist and actually showed up in this thread...

I refuse to believe it. I propose we insist these people be given lie detector tests, just to prove they're not just yanking our collective chains...

No, wait, scratch that. A polygraph isn't quite good enough, considering. I mean, this is major league loopy we're talking here... What if these people were planted by space aliens, just to make the human species look stupid? It's a possibility, people! Therefore, I propose we dissect them, just like on that (no doubt, legitimate) "Alien Autopsy" movie, to look for telltale anatomic irregularities...

(Which, if we do not find them, of course, are only absent because the aliens did their job so well, obviously...)

Let's get on this. Can't be too careful...

(/The truth is out there...)

Posted by: dcb | July 19, 2009 12:47 PM

I agree with AJ Milne.

I for one have never seen any credible proof that birthers exist. Consider the facts:

1. Nobody is that stupid.
2. The purported "evidence" is faked.
3. Something about conspiracy and polygraphs.

The truth is out there ppl! Take the Mainstream Media blinders off and think for yourselves!

Posted by: XD | July 19, 2009 12:54 PM

I propose that all 'birthers' in this thread have to provide evidence that they are members of the Republican party, otherwise we shall consider them trolls, which mean they get a one-way trip to the dungeon.

Of course, even if they do post evidence, we will just declare it to be fake.

Posted by: Joe B | July 19, 2009 12:57 PM

@55 the Birther Conspiracy, IS A CONSPIRACY!.

Just like the 9/11 Conspiracy

Posted by: bam | July 19, 2009 1:03 PM

Oh, they are out there, alright. On my way to visit my Mom in northeast Texas (I live in South Texas) I saw a billboard with the words "Where's the Birth Certificate?" on it. Somewhere north of Austin IIRC. Really.

OTH, I did see Obama stickers on people's pickups in Van Zandt County. White people's trucks. THAT, my friends, is progress.

Posted by: Marcus Ranum | July 19, 2009 1:06 PM

What is this "race" thing that they filled in? I had no idea "Africa" was a "race" and not a continent. Did I miss a meeting?

Or do they have the "race" entries there in anticipation of when atheists start marrying dogs and cats and having kids together?
Mother's race: dog
Father's race: octopus

I can't tell exactly what stupidity this is supposed to reveal, there's so much of it there.

Posted by: ice9 | July 19, 2009 1:16 PM

Alls I got is a certificate of live birth, too--November 1960, Washington, DC (suspiciously non-American, many citizens of the Negro persuasion--they don't even have congressmen!)

My questions: 1. How do I collect my African-American benefits?

2. When do I get to start being President. Because it looks like not much fun, right now.

ice

Posted by: Faid | July 19, 2009 1:19 PM

Whoa. I didn't know that!
Turns out that jerk of a major that sued the army for deploying him to Afganistan under "illegitimate orders" (since Obama is not the head of state, you know) had volunteered to be deployed as a reservist, and all he had to do to revoke his deployment (at least until his order for transportation came) was to simply *say* so!

http://www.examiner.com/x-5738-St-Louis-Political-Buzz-Examiner~y2009m7d18-The-Obama-birth-certificate-debate-just-got-more-ridiculous-and-dangerous

Sorry if this was news only to me, but this is so obvious a setup it's ridiculous.

"Mother, I'd like some broccoli, please".
"Why certainly, honey, here you go-"
"...You know what? I changed my mind. I DON'T want broccoli, and you can't MAKE me have any because YOU'RE NOT MY REAL MOTHER"!
"Butbutbut honey,y-you don't have to have broccoli if you don't want to..."
"HAH! See? I KNEW it! You ADMIT you're not my real mother"!

...Unbelievable.

Posted by: ice9 | July 19, 2009 1:27 PM

I'd like to point out that my birth certificate says "Where's the Billboard?"

Hah.

ice

Posted by: Zeno | July 19, 2009 1:29 PM

raven: chemtrails make you dull witted

Posted by: nomuse | July 19, 2009 1:35 PM

I call it the Pringle's Effect, Raven.

Believing in one woo makes believing in the next one easier. But even more; if you live in a world where most conspiracies are discovered within a few years, where the bulk of science is factual and the bulk of scientists honest, and so forth, it makes it difficult to believe that something like a fake Apollo Landing could be pulled off.

But once you buy into, say, that the entire pharmaceutical industry is in league with major parts of established medicine in order to sell dangerous and unnecessary vaccines; why, you've already accepted the kind and scale of activity needed to pull off sticking tanks of psychotropic drugs into passenger airliners for them to leave in white trails over the skies of major cities, or to sneak demolitions into a trio of skyscrapers whilst simultaneously inserting 3d airplanes into the footage from captive newsmedia!

Posted by: Gra | July 19, 2009 1:41 PM

Apparently WorldNet Daily is big supporter of this bullshit. Who'd ha thunk?

Posted by: NewEnglandBob | July 19, 2009 1:45 PM

But the bigger question is: does PZ have a birth certificate?

Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip | July 19, 2009 1:48 PM

A birth certificate? I thought Obama was formed from clay.

Posted by: Rey Fox | July 19, 2009 2:03 PM

I wonder if there's any overlap between the uh, birthers (great that every kook on every little issue gets their own little nickname) and the people who want that constitutional prohibition on non-native Americans to be lifted so that Arnold Schwartzenegger can run for president.

Posted by: The Chimp's Raging Id | July 19, 2009 2:08 PM

Kw*k needs to be allowed back in for this thread only.

But the bigger question is: does PZ have a birth certificate?

I doubt Cthulhu was that interested in ensuring its offspring had the proper paperwork in place.

Posted by: Mena | July 19, 2009 2:17 PM

Re: conservatives
What I find especially bizarre about them is how they get all excited and feel that we have to spend tons of money and butt into stuff that's going on in the world that really doesn't concern us, like Iran's election riots or Saddam Hussein's regime but doing stuff that does actually concern us is socialism. It takes a special kind of brain to be "pro-life" and still be proud of our infant mortality rate. Of course we don't want to have nationalized health care because then we will be like France, which has less than have the rate. We're not doing too well with the percentage of people carrying HIV but we should continue to fund abstinence only sex ed and not cover condoms.
It would boggle the mind but I read that article that was linked to above. Now I'm just shaking my head.

Posted by: Jim Lippard | July 19, 2009 2:20 PM

Wikipedia has a nice list of presidential candidates whose eligibility for office was questioned on the basis of the circumstances of their births--it's surprisingly long. Chester A. Arthur was rumored to have been born in Canada, Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona when it was a territory, not a state, Lowell Weicker was born in Paris, George Romney was born in Mexico, etc.

#82: McCain's case did get a fair amount of attention, and, like Obama, there was a court case against his eligibility (Robinson v. Bowen), which was tossed out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen_of_the_United_States#Presidential_candidates_whose_eligibility_was_questioned

Posted by: Terry | July 19, 2009 2:24 PM

Hey wacko's who don't believe this is a true Birth Certificate. Too friggin' bad! He's the Prez and there ain't nothin' you can do about it!

Losers!

Posted by: Dr. P | July 19, 2009 2:39 PM

@ 40,

Must be fake. Everybody knows the messiah doesn't need a birth certificate.

Posted by: bonefish | July 19, 2009 2:44 PM

The gawker screed is a good read.

Posted by: BennyBlanco | July 19, 2009 2:50 PM

The certificate states "any alterations invalidate this certificate" and the certificate number has been blacked out - that's clearly an aleration and therefore the certificate is invalid...

Posted by: James F | July 19, 2009 2:53 PM

#73

I like the term "crank magnetism," which I believe was coined on ScienceBlogs, but "Pringle's Effect" made me smile.

Posted by: Stuart Van Onselen | July 19, 2009 2:58 PM

Just another case of wishful thinking.

A large number of people believe that Obama will destroy America based on the incontrovertible fact that he is not a Republican. Thus, they will search for, and if need be, simply invent as many post hoc justifications for their belief.

And then they will believe their own lies.

Just like IDers, Flood Geologists, and (as already pointed out) just about every conspiracy kook out there.

Who needs The Truth when The Narrative is so much more important?

Posted by: donna | July 19, 2009 3:00 PM

But Hawaii had only been a state for TWO YEARS then! Doesn't count!!!!

Posted by: Pablo | July 19, 2009 3:03 PM

"7. John McCain's citizenship was not in question because: a) Both parents were American citizens. b) His father was a Naval officer serving in America-controlled Panama c) He was born on the Coco Solo submarine base, effectively American soil. d) His background had been thoroughly vetted by several agencies on account of his military service and long Congressional career. "

e) His name is John

Posted by: catta | July 19, 2009 3:11 PM

#95: The number is blanked in the scan. Not in the original document.

I'm still mildly surprised how well this crank magnetism (really, great term) works; I didn't expect more than one to turn up, tops.
And someone... anyone... please, tell me that that "steady drip" blog is a joke. If not, it's as if someone explained the "Pringles" metaphor and a real life illustration turned up on cue.

Posted by: bonze | July 19, 2009 3:15 PM

nomuse: [revised]

But once you buy into, say, that the entire pharmaceutical industry is in league with major parts of established medicine in order to sell dangerous and unnecessary not notably effective vaccines antidepressants.

...you might well be correct, and might or might not be convinced by other "conspiracy" theories.

Posted by: Sili | July 19, 2009 3:21 PM

"The Pringles metaphor"?

Posted by: AristotleTheHun | July 19, 2009 3:22 PM

Personal History of a Birther

http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2009/07/personal-history-of-birther.html

How about a little personal history for what is behind me being a “birther”

I read the “Warren Report” and I believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone gunman.

I have never seen a flying saucer, even though I am a pilot and an air traffic control man.

I don’t believe that “Big Foot” exists.

I think Islamic terrorists took down the World Trade Center.

I don’t believe FEMA is planning to round up citizens and put them in concentration camps, and I don’t think swine flu is an international conspiracy.

The Lock Ness Monster is a fantasy.

I am certain that the Apollo mission actually went to the moon.

There are no more missing aircraft and ships in the so called “Bermuda Triangle” than in any other part of the earth with equivalent traffic.

After having reviewed the REAL science, I am convinced that Global Warming is a huge scam.

I have a PhD, and am in private practice as a psychotherapist, so more than likely I am not crazy.

Psychology today verification here: http://www.therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/verification.php?id=63156

I am a life time member of Mensa, so I am not stupid. Membership # 1061487

The guiding principles for my professional research for articles and books I write are the usual protocols of epistemology, scientific methodology, and rules of logic and the rules of evidence.

However, I am firmly convinced that AKA Obama is not eligible to be POTUS, and here is why:

If you read the articles at the link, and review the citations at the embedded links, you will be “literate” about the facts of the “eligibility” story and will be able to inform the public objectively.

AKA Obama Fans: All together now – say OMG!!
http://www.thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2009/04/aka-obama-fans-all-together-now-say-omg.html

Posted by: AristotleTheHun | July 19, 2009 3:25 PM

Personal History of a Birther

http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2009/07/personal-history-of-birther.html

How about a little personal history for what is behind me being a “birther”

I read the “Warren Report” and I believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone gunman.

I have never seen a flying saucer, even though I am a pilot and an air traffic control man.

I don’t believe that “Big Foot” exists.

I think Islamic terrorists took down the World Trade Center.

I don’t believe FEMA is planning to round up citizens and put them in concentration camps, and I don’t think swine flu is an international conspiracy.

The Lock Ness Monster is a fantasy.

I am certain that the Apollo mission actually went to the moon.

There are no more missing aircraft and ships in the so called “Bermuda Triangle” than in any other part of the earth with equivalent traffic.

After having reviewed the REAL science, I am convinced that Global Warming is a huge scam.

I have a PhD, and am in private practice as a psychotherapist, so more than likely I am not crazy.

Psychology today verification here: http://www.therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/verification.php?id=63156

I am a life time member of Mensa, so I am not stupid. Membership # 1061487

The guiding principles for my professional research for articles and books I write are the usual protocols of epistemology, scientific methodology, and rules of logic and the rules of evidence.

However, I am firmly convinced that AKA Obama is not eligible to be POTUS, and here is why:

If you read the articles at the link, and review the citations at the embedded links, you will be “literate” about the facts of the “eligibility” story and will be able to inform the public objectively.

AKA Obama Fans: All together now – say OMG!!
http://www.thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2009/04/aka-obama-fans-all-together-now-say-omg.html

Posted by: Lynna | July 19, 2009 3:27 PM

Saw the guy who is promoting the return of white supremacists to northern Idaho on local news a couple of days ago. He said, "... and now we've got a slave for a President."

These idiots were kicked out of Idaho years ago, but now they're back.
http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/apr/19/white-supremacist-group-returns-to-idaho/

Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | July 19, 2009 3:28 PM

I am a life time member of Mensa, so I am not stupid. Membership # 1061487

Do not ever use Mensa membership as a defense. Look up Vox Day and weep.

Posted by: Stuart Van Onselen | July 19, 2009 3:37 PM

That's right AristotleTheHun, all the investigators and lawyers and Supreme Court justices missed something that you spotted easily.

Delusional wanker.

And no-one here cares about your qualifications, they care about the quality of your evidence.

Egotistical Wanker

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 19, 2009 3:40 PM

Do not ever use Mensa membership as a defense. Look up Vox Day and weep.

Posted by: SteveN | July 19, 2009 3:48 PM

AristotleTheHun:
"I have a PhD, and am in private practice as a psychotherapist, so more than likely I am not crazy."

Joke, right? Please?

Posted by: bam | July 19, 2009 3:53 PM

Mensa. MENSA? And the member number is a nice touch.

Defensive much?

Posted by: Laurie | July 19, 2009 3:56 PM

I am not a birther at all, but I think that Obama might be said to be in violation of the citizenry requirements if he can be said to have been born outsde the U.S., notwithstanding that his mother was an American citizen. I think the rule requires that, if you are born outside the U.S., you must have at least one American parent who lived inside the U.S. for at least five years after that parent's 14th birthday. Obama's mother was only 18 so she would not have met that requirement. That said, the laws in this area are really detailed and convoluted so it can be hard to figure out what exactly the rules unless you are specialist in this area.

But even if the birthers were somehow proven correct, which seems unlikely, it doesn't follow that Obama doesn't get to be president anymore. I still think he would have to be impeached, wouldn't he? He did after all, receive the majority vote of the American people and the delegates so if I were an elected official I would tread lightly before voting for impeachment or even allowing the matter to get to that stage.

Posted by: Blue Fielder | July 19, 2009 3:58 PM

Name morphing. Instant dungeon spot. Say goodbye, birfer trash.

Posted by: JT | July 19, 2009 4:00 PM

"After having reviewed the REAL science, I am convinced that Global Warming is a huge scam."

Mmm, hmm. (eye roll)

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 19, 2009 4:00 PM

I have a PhD, and am in private practice as a psychotherapist, so more than likely I am not crazy.

that's hilarious

Posted by: Anonymous | July 19, 2009 4:03 PM

Matt H

So we don't have to go through the whole, argument thingy, how about I fill in my part of the dialogue and you fill in yours?

Me: What do you know about birth certificates?
Me: So how could you tell if one's fake?
Me: So you were just talking crap?

...Oh the suspense is killing me! I'll fill in your part for you.

MH:Nothing.
MH:Couldn't.
MH: Yes. Sorry.

Posted by: Tired | July 19, 2009 4:06 PM

I am a life time member of Mensa, so I am not stupid.

Apparently didn't help.

Posted by: DJMoore | July 19, 2009 4:06 PM

#103: "His name is John". [In answer to my list of reasons why McCain's citizenship is not subject to a wacko conspiracy.]

A better answer was given by, among others, #87, who pointed out that the wackos came after McCain, too, and cited Wikipedia on a number of citizenship controversies, including McCain and Obama. That article also explains why some of my points on McCain are in question; I wish I had noticed #87 before making my post. (I emphasize, though, that I hold both McCain and Obama to be legitimate, natural born U.S. Citizens, and both to be Constitutionally eligible for the Presidency.)

You, on the other hand, simply explained, "Shut up," by doing a clever variation on the ad hominem that the only reason to not like Obama or to disagree with him in any way is racism.

===

My favorite term for believers in this hoax is "nirther", which I picked up from folks who are otherwise adamantly opposed to Obama and his policies.

Posted by: Susan | July 19, 2009 4:09 PM

The birthers are the flaming hoop the rethugs jumped through while sailing over that shark. It's as if they think in the future only white male property owners will be able to vote, and they're furiously scrambling to consolidate their base.

Posted by: dean | July 19, 2009 4:13 PM

" have a PhD, and am in private practice as a psychotherapist, so more than likely I am not crazy."

I've done statistical work for students in your profession: your comments show that even being given (I'm not convinced you had to EARN one) a PhD in your profession means that you have any understanding of logic or science. You seem to be just another dishonest loser, and the website you link to supports that conclusion.

Posted by: Ichthyic | July 19, 2009 4:14 PM

Aristotlethehack wrote on his blog:

It isn't hard to imagine the gnawing anxiety that AKA OBAMA lives with, day in and day out.

LOL

do you know what the word "projection" means?

you're loony toons, and all the anxiety is your own.

Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | July 19, 2009 4:16 PM

About AtH response at #126, it is a boilerplate answer. Apparently, he gets mocked often and this is his attempt to prove that he should be taken seriously.

'Tis Himself, in your time in the Navy, how often did you have to deal with people like AtH?

Posted by: John M | July 19, 2009 4:19 PM

How nice of ATH to post his rant twice. It means one doesn't have to scroll back up the page to re-read it as disbelief kicks in.

Posted by: Marc Abian | July 19, 2009 4:20 PM

Your comments reek of ridicule.

Ridicule is one of the lower forms of logical fallacy and would disqualify you for a grade school debate team.

Ridicule isn't a logical fallacy if it's not a method of persuasion. In this instance it wasn't an argument, just a natural reaction to you thinking that your belief that global warming is a scam bolsters your credibility and proves you're not likely to fall for conspiracy theories.

Explaning how appeals to riducle are fallacious was adorable though.

This is the rise of a New American Fascism.

That's funny. I thought, Republicans were sure he was a socialist.

Posted by: Ray C. | July 19, 2009 4:23 PM

Look at the Hawaii flag. Do you see that sort-of-mini-flag in the corner? It ain't the Stars & Bars or Washington's coat of arms. It is, in fact, the British flag, the flag under which King George the Three Eyes oppressed the 13 Colonies.

<nitpick>
Not precisely. That flag dates from 1801, when Ireland was officially made part of the UK. The flag over the 13 Colonies lacked the so-called Cross of St. Patrick, which Parliament made up so Ireland would have a device on the Union Jack.

More on the Union Jack and its history
<nitpick>

Posted by: PeterKarim | July 19, 2009 4:28 PM

@111
So you are an air traffic controller AND a psychotherapist...?
It is hard to make ends meet nowadays isn't it...

Posted by: kay | July 19, 2009 4:35 PM

I like how he convinced his parents to put a birth announcement in the Honolulu paper when he was born. He really IS good isn't he!

Posted by: Ross | July 19, 2009 4:40 PM

That short-form certificate was given to people not born in Hawaii also. Where is the full-form birth certificate?

Posted by: James F | July 19, 2009 4:41 PM

My personal theory is that President Obama is withholding the original copy of his birth certificate specifically so that birther wingnuts will waste their time and energy arguing about it.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 19, 2009 4:49 PM

I see that PZ has succeeded in annoying so many people as his title claimed.

But it's not much of an accomplishment as cranks and tin-foil hatters are among the easiest people to annoy.

Posted by: Lsuoma | July 19, 2009 4:49 PM

@68: There's also one on I-5 just south of Chehalis, WA. It's the Birchers there, and I suspect that there are many, many spread all over the country.

Posted by: Eric | July 19, 2009 4:55 PM

"I have a PhD, and am in private practice as a psychotherapist, so more than likely I am not crazy."

Having known quite few psychotherapists in my life (my father is one, and he's sane, I think) I'm convinced the opposite is true.

But that's just anecdotal, of course.

Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | July 19, 2009 5:02 PM

Obama is a golem?

If that is the case, the birthers should shut up about the birth certificate and just remove the word of power from his head.

Posted by: Eric | July 19, 2009 5:06 PM

http://www.notparsimonious.com

Posted by: mayhempix | July 19, 2009 5:07 PM

@Aristonsil the Loon

Why do you care?

Did you care that W was elected by a minority of the popular vote and appointed by SCOTUS?

Do you care that Cheney told the CIA not to reveal to Congress an assassination program breaking a federal law and promoting the breaking of another one along with international law?

Do you care that you are making a complete fool of yourself and begging for the ridicule you indignantly and ineffectively protest?

Posted by: blf | July 19, 2009 5:09 PM

Is there a reason the US constitution is racist and xenophobic over the demand the president be native born ?

Whilst one could argue the requirement is xenophobic, I don't see an argument that it is racist? It is nothing like the British requirement that the monarch not be catholic, or other examples (of varying quality) that one can find around the world.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | July 19, 2009 5:20 PM

I KNEW it! All of the right-wingnuts and their conspiratorial RUMORS about B. HUSSEIN Obamassiah-One-oramalamadingdong...a DECOY! a BEARD! for the REAL TRUTH that left-wing-moonbat liberaltard-o-weenie Obamaistas Were Not Told About It!!!

"HESSEIN" Obama is now KNOWN TO BE NOT a born-in-a-madrassa IndoNesian smuggled into the USA through Hawaii but rather a) Jewish b) made of clay (as was not Adam and therefore all Men? except Literally. Adam, too, of course), c) originally from the ghettos of Prague, Czekoslavak Czechoslovokia Eastern Europe!!!!!

I knew it...

Posted by: mayhempix | July 19, 2009 5:22 PM

TFF... according to his fun fact filled website Aristonsil the Loon is a distributer of Shaklee products and is the author of an altie med book.

He actually uses his Obama BS to push his vitamin and doctor rejection BS.

He is not a Birther... he is an AfterBirther.

Posted by: blf | July 19, 2009 5:26 PM

Obama is a golem?

If that is the case, the birthers should shut up about the birth certificate and just remove the word of power from his head.

Unless he's an Umnian golem. Those seemed to have the words of power backed into their very clay. There is no chem to remove.

Posted by: Dawn | July 19, 2009 5:31 PM

The billboard also appears on I-78 East in PA, about 30 minutes west of Allentown. Don't know the area well enough to know how conservative/Republican it is.

Just looked at the birth certificate of one of my kids...only it ISN'T. It's a "Certificate of Vital Records". OMG, OMG...does this mean my kids weren't really born? (and after X hours of labor, you'd better believe me when I say I gave birth to them!)

Posted by: GMacs | July 19, 2009 5:34 PM

I have a PhD, and am in private practice as a psychotherapist,

So you know that obsession is not a good sign as pertains to one's state of mental health.

so more than likely I am not crazy.

Kind of non sequitur isn't it?

Also, you show signs of this obsession on your blog. Almost all of your posts are about this birth certificate issue.

Also, I think "crazy" is a very poor choice of word for a professional shrink to use. Well, we can see why you would have to be in private practice.
(I'm not dissing all private practice folks. But you know there are some kooks who just can't get hired at a public institution.)

Posted by: Carlie | July 19, 2009 5:50 PM

Ridicule is one of the lower forms of logical fallacy and would disqualify you for a grade school debate team.

Life is not a debate team. Sadly, a lot of people whose high point in life was being a member of a debate team in high school don't realize that the purpose of their training was to be able to orate the best in a carefully controlled environment, not to argue actual merits or discover anything approaching actual truth. When they get out in the real world, they're like a thespian who thinks his stint as a Jet in West Side Story means he can go up against a cage fighter.

Posted by: Ed Darrell | July 19, 2009 5:53 PM

Not only is that document under seal, certified by the State of Hawaii to be accurate in all it professes (What's that? Does that say he was born in Honolulu?), it worked to get the State Department to issue him a passport (which we know exists because it was accessed illegally last year), and to get into the Illinois Bar, and to get past the FBI's security clearance rules for briefings as a senator, and past the CIA's security clearance rules for briefings the president-elect got.

If you want to claim Obama's not eligible, you gotta explain away a lot of stuff that can't be explained away.

Posted by: Anonymous | July 19, 2009 6:25 PM

ATTENTION CRANKS AND CONSERVATIVES:

The Ad Hominem Fallacy is:
You are wrong because of something bad about you.

It is NOT:
You are wrong and there's something bad about you.
There's something bad about you.
I don't believe you because there's something bad about you.
There must be something bad about you for you to be wrong.

Or anything other than:
You are wrong because of something bad about you.

ALSO:

Trying to logically analyze the jokey, half-hearted comments of people on a blog is improper because they are jokey, half-hearted comments of people on a blog.

THANK YOU FOR YOU TIME

Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip | July 19, 2009 6:37 PM

Obama is a golem?

Or perhaps Wonder Woman. I always get my attractive, foreign-born patriotic heroes confused.

Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | July 19, 2009 6:46 PM

Thank you, 'Tis Himself. I asked only because some people like AtH like to point out their military experience as if it backs up their argument and that they are somehow representing the military point of view.

Posted by: Richard Fieldsend | July 19, 2009 6:57 PM

I'm interested in this because I've been having a debate with an old friend of my wifes who, despite being born in England now lives in Hawaii and is massively right wing.

He is a 'birther', and although it is clearly insane, I'd really like some strong arguments to hit him with. So far his main arguments have been:
i) no one has seen the certificate (I've mentioned that even the World Net Daily did authenticate it though it has now apparently withdrawn any references to the article on their site), so if those loons can be convinced (as well as FactCheck.org) why not him.
ii) Obama's first presidential order was to hide all documents, so he must be hiding something then... Well I've read the document itself (you can get it from archive.whitehouse.org), and it looks to me like it just extends a bill from 1978 to cover his own presidency. Any comments on that?

Come on people, help me out. This loon needs smacking down, he's also a greenhouse effect denier who told me I needed to go read the science till I pointed out that I didn't need to read it as I'd already got the chemistry degree that meant I knew what I was talking about...

Posted by: Rolan le Gargéac | July 19, 2009 7:11 PM

Aristotle the Hun #126

...Blah blah bollocks blah blah bollocks...

Hey ! It's Sheldon, minus the intelligence and the social skills !

O PeeZee, wherefore art thou ? What phosphoresence from yonder ..

Posted by: AJ Milne | July 19, 2009 7:25 PM

...it's as if someone explained the "Pringles" metaphor and a real life illustration turned up on cue...

Coincidence? I think not!

(/Turns on lights in autopsy room...)

Posted by: Talen Lee | July 19, 2009 7:35 PM

I know it might be ridiculous to provide this particular tidbit, considering we're dealing with incoherent, emotive straw-grasping here, but if there really was some kind of conspiracy to take over America wouldn't it behoove the conspirators to try and do it with, say, a white male named Jack instead of a black guy with the middle name of Hussein?

Heck, wasn't Orrin Hatch groomed by the mormon church to be 'the mormon president' for a while there?

Posted by: 386sx | July 19, 2009 7:57 PM

Also, you show signs of this obsession on your blog. Almost all of your posts are about this birth certificate issue.

I don't blame them. It's a pretty cool looking birth certificate. Arguably the greatest birth certificate in the history of all time that the universe has ever known. One cannot blame them for liking it so much.

Posted by: 386sx | July 19, 2009 8:05 PM

I have a PhD, and am in private practice as a psychotherapist, so more than likely I am not crazy.

Look up this one doc: "Birth Certificate Envy." That's right, "birthers" are jealous of the birth certificate. They wish they had such a nice one as that. And I don't blame them. It's a fine specimen if I ever saw one. Look it up, doc.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | July 19, 2009 8:13 PM

Note: I posted this recently but it's apropos for this thread:

The "experts" tell us that 2 + 2 = 4. But can that really be the whole story? Consider this: Isn't it odd that 2 + 2 = 4 and 4 = 2 + 2? Such a nice little package, don’t you think? Isn’t that convenient? But then consider this: 4 = 3 + 1. That’s right, we already know what 4 equals. So what are they hiding? What does 2 + 2 really equal? What would it hurt for more study on the real value of 2 + 2? A lot of people make a lot of money off of the fact that 2 + 2 = 4. Math teachers, accountants (who control the world's money supply), capitalists, the Zionist military industrial oedipal complex. I think they're afraid of the truth. Now I'm not one of those loonies who say the number 2 doesn’t exist, or that it can't be combined with other numbers to make bigger numbers, only that the "official" party line that 2 + 2 = 4 seems odd to me. "They" say that 2 + 2 = 4, but then they also say that 2 × 2 = 4, and 2² = 4. How convenient. They can't be all right! I think it’s time we ask what are they hiding? We will not be silent any longer!

Posted by: BlueIndependent | July 19, 2009 8:25 PM

"...After having reviewed the REAL science, I am convinced that Global Warming is a huge scam..."

Right. You've reviewed the collective work of thousands of scientists all over the world, spent years parsing all the collected information, and by your own entirely unrelated doctorate degree, pass judgment. Sorry. Any PhD who uses all caps in the 21st century to describe what they've reviewed as "REAL" science, assuming said person really has a doctorate to begin with, likely doesn't have a clue what they're talking about, least of all you. In your dissertation did you use all caps to emphasize certain things.

And please don't try and play the "I've got a doctorate" card on any regular here. You place far too much credibility in your degree, and seem to think that having such a degree automatically makes you less immune to stupidity. Newsflash: There are plenty of crazies who have PhDs. A PhD only shows that you put in the time and effort to earn it. It is not proof that everything you do after earning it is somehow noble and above the fray. Your work after the fact is what counts. If you've been on here at all over the last twelve months you should know there are several people with PhDs out there that PZ has been showing to be utter fools for their field. Dr. Egnor is one example. He may be a surgeon, but he's 100% dumb on evolution. One of the inventors of the transistor was an active eugenicist. A PhD != reality-spanning intelligence, but, you should know this if you have one. Your Mensa ID means nothing if you believe tripe.

Your persistence in the Obama birther conspiracy shows you have at the very least an axe to grind, and at most that you'll take the fabrications of ill-motivated people at face value. McCain is just as "unfit" to be Potus by the birther theory as Obama. The evidence is at hand. Suck it up or just admit you have no substantive reason to hate him, you just do. Obama is president. Many, probably most here, voted for him. I voted for him. I hope that turns a few screws in your doctorate little head while you lay in bed tonight. He's an American citizen by the evidence, not simply against your animus.

And as someone else here so astutely pointed out, rethugs have been rather active to get the law that keeps people like Schwarzenegger from becoming POTUS struck from the books. How convenient that the very people demanding that Obama step down are the same ones that would push Arnold up for public consumption if given the chance.

Go back to freerepublic and spin some more tall tales. Utter, vapid, pathetic, simpleton morons all of you.

Posted by: AJ Milne | July 19, 2009 8:27 PM

The birfers are all way wrong, the global warming denialists are all wrong, the Dan Brown fan club is all wrong, the people who believe Elvis runs the world government from a spaceship outside Pluto's orbit are all wrong... The REAL conspiracy is run by a shadowy group of evil men I have yet to unmask, but whom, for now, I refer to as only 'The Cabal'...

I do not yet know their nefarious purpose, but certain details of the shape of their evil plot have long been known to me... And this one thing is certain, one thing is constant: They Are Watching Me, and they know what I write, they know what I say, and when I say certain magic words, they act...

You doubt me? It is certain, and I can prove it. For any time I say the words 'That's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard', they send someone out to say something stupider...

I'll prove it, and I'll prove it now: (Points upthread at the current loon-in-residence's most recent output...) 'That's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard...'

(/Now, if experience is any guide, we shouldn't have to wait long... They work fast, these people...)

Posted by: AJ Milne | July 19, 2009 8:34 PM

(Looks thoughtfully at comment #212... eyes grow wide in terror...)

But... but... how!? They did that... THE VERY SECOND I posted this time!

Nooooooo! They're getting even FASTER! They're under my bed, I tell you!

(/Runs screaming from room...)

Posted by: idioteraser | July 19, 2009 8:36 PM

"Obama's first presidential order was to hide all documents, so he must be hiding something then... Well I've read the document itself (you can get it from archive.whitehouse.org), and it looks to me like it just extends a bill from 1978 to cover his own presidency. Any comments on that?
"

whitehouse.org is a parody website. The .org should have been a tipoff. Offical goverment sites have .gov in their address.

Posted by: Budbear | July 19, 2009 8:42 PM

AtH-

I read your posts. I visited your blog. In all honesty, no ridicule, no ad hominem intended. You are realllllly boring. Is it the meds?

Posted by: Alan Kellogg | July 19, 2009 8:48 PM

Sathesit, #212

Paper that isn't folded doesn't get creases. Paper that is placed in a folder usually doesn't get folded.

Then again, if something is placed in a folder doesn't that mean it's been folded? And since it's been folded, shouldn't it have creases?

Yes, I do take my medication. Why do you ask?

Posted by: tmaxPA | July 19, 2009 8:53 PM

Refuse to Beleive, #19: B+, and the Best Actual Poe Award for: "Is that too much to ask?"

'Tis Himself, #24: C+, and the Most Typical of Pharyngula Award for: "Sort-of-mini-flag"

Radwaste, #26: A++!!, and the Birther Concern Troll Award for: "It apparently needs to be more-common knowledge"

Darren Garrison, #44: B-, and the Honorable Mention Award for: "License to drive"

Burfer, #56: C-, and the If You Give Up It Isn't A Poe Award for: "Queerosexuals"

DJMoore, #90: D, and the I May Be Paranoid But I Ain't No Birther Award for: "Very skeptical of Obama on account of his upbringing, education, and political grooming"

BennyBlanco, #95: D-, and the Technical Award because JT@35 wasn't in the proper format for: "Alteration"

Captain Steve, #98: A, and the That's All Folks! Award for: "Something To Hide"

I hope you stick around, Captain Steve. Maybe some rationality will rub off on you.

Posted by: James F | July 19, 2009 9:29 PM

TGAP Dad #214:

I was raised by a school psychologist, was married to a psych graduate, became personally well acquainted with the entire psych faculty of my alma mater, and have been personally friendly with three licensed psychologists. I can assure you that they were all, to some degree, nuts (yes, including my mother).

I knew the Chenowiths in Six Feet Under seemed unusually realistic....

Posted by: Jen | July 19, 2009 9:43 PM

Completely unrelated, but has anyone heard about this: http://www.adn.com/2835/story/864687.html ?

My friend's theory on it involves Cthulhu...

Posted by: Pearl-clutching Faitheist | July 19, 2009 9:50 PM

Mensa...

Did you all know that Mensa has an Astrology Special Interest Group? yup...

Posted by: Mena | July 19, 2009 10:04 PM

Speaking of believing in weird stuff, is it really that much of a stretch that people who believe invisible supernatural people are doing everything they can to fuck with them can also believe the same of invisible real people?

Posted by: idioteraser | July 19, 2009 10:15 PM

"Obama's first presidential order was to hide all documents, so he must be hiding something then... Well I've read the document itself (you can get it from archive.whitehouse.org), and it looks to me like it just extends a bill from 1978 to cover his own presidency. Any comments on that?
"

whitehouse.org is a parody website. The .org should have been a tipoff. Offical goverment sites have .gov in their address.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ExecutiveOrderPresidentialRecords/

This is a restoration of a presidental order signed by Ronald Reagen that was then altered by George Bush Jr in 2001. Obama isn't hiding jack. It allows the access of presidental records. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Executive_Order_12667 compare and contrast the two they are pretty much exactly the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13233 was revoked by Obama btw. 13233 limited the availabity of Bush's presidental records so people couldn't look through them.

Posted by: sir eccles | July 19, 2009 10:29 PM

Not to mention that John SYDNEY McCain is a secret Australian bent on making us all drink bad lager and wear those silly hats with corks.

Posted by: --PatF | July 19, 2009 10:43 PM

I happen to have two copies of my birth certificate in my desk.

The first says that it is a "CERTIFICATION OF BIRTH REGISTRATION" in all captials.

The second says it is a "Certificate of Birth Registration" in large funny germanic letters.

Since there is a difference does this mean that I do not have a "birth certificate?" Do I have to leave the country and live in Germany?

Posted by: ice9 | July 19, 2009 10:46 PM

OK, one more time. The birthers are idiots, but there's one point they have. If Obama were not born in Hawaii, he would be ineligible to serve under the most common and accepted interpretation of the "natural born citizen" clause. There is a difference between 'citizen' and 'natural born citizen.' Unfortunately, that difference is not clear, and has not been adjudicated in any way; in fact, it has been rendered completely unclear by a spiral precedents and claims. McCain's standing as a "natural born citizen" is cloudy, though different from Obama's. McCain was born in Panama, not in the Panama Canal Zone (though in most interpretations of the Natural Born Citizen rule that does not matter; military bases aren't the same as territories, and territories were specifically adopted as places where "natural born" status applied. Hence Guam before 1952: no; after, yes.)
McCain's citizenship obtains primarily from the fact that his parents were both citizens ("natural born" or not). The key rule that applied to McCain became law after he was born and does not contain a retroactive clause.
Obama's citizenship claim obtains from the fact that he was born on US soil. Had his mother and father both been non-citizens, he would still be a "natural born citizen." Had he been born in Kenya he would still qualify for citizenship, since one parent was a citizen, but he would not meet most tests for "natural born" status.

The senate, by the way, passed a resolution mooting the McCain citizenship question...but it was a non-binding resolution.

In a variety of cases on citizenship issues, the courts have held two other pertinent things.

1. Citizenship, either natural-born other, by blood or by place, depends a lot on your race. Various minorities have clearly had a rough time of it when by modern standards they would have clearly qualified. Dred Scott is one example; native Americans born on reservations have not always benefitted from the clear rules, either.

2. Naturalized citizenship has been extended retroactively in a variety of cases, including (recently) the case of military service.

that said, birthers are idiots.

ice

Posted by: Glory | July 19, 2009 10:51 PM

"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir."
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could...in fact most of us would if we could....God doesn't."
[No answer]
"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
[No answer]
The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. "In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er... Yes."
"Is Satan good?"
"No."
"Where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "From... God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"
"Yes."
"Who created evil?"
[No answer]
"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All the terrible things - do they exist in this world? "
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"Who created them?"
[No answer]
The professor suddenly shouts at his student, "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice, he asked, "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"
[No answer]
The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"
[No answer]
"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and
whispers, "Is God good?"
[No answer]
"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."
The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
"No, sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir. I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"
[No answer]
"Answer me, please."
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"
"No, sir."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"...yes..."
"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"
[The student doesn't answer]
"Sit down, please."
The first Christian sits...defeated.
Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"
The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, yet another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."
The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"Is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No, sir, there isn't."
The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The second Christian continues.
"You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 273 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than -273°C. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.
"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"
"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"
"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes..."
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light... but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you... give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."
The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!"
"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"
The class is all ears.
"Explain... ohhhhh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability himself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.
"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it." The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"
"Of course there is, now look..."
"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"
The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.
The Christian continues, "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if He exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil.1 What is that work God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."2
The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."
The Christian replies, "I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going, Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.
"Professor. Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.
"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"
"I believe in what is - that's science!"
"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..."
"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters.
The class is in uproar. The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?"
The professor wisely keeps silent.
The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's mind?" The class breaks out into laughter. The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelt the professor's mind? No one appears to have done so." The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no mind."
The class is in chaos.
The Christian sits.

Posted by: Brian H | July 19, 2009 11:01 PM

@Laurie 127:

Actually, the requirement is (from the US code http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001401----000-.html section 1401g):

"a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years [snipped stuff about diplomatic and military oversees postings which would not be relevant - see link for full text]"

So it's perfectly possible that she fit this requirement easily, and the burden of proof would be on the person claiming he was NOT a citizen, as I understand how the law works in this case.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | July 19, 2009 11:02 PM

No, the lack of evidence is with dog and jebus. The professors mind exists (the biochemical reactions in the brain).

Posted by: Jason A. | July 19, 2009 11:06 PM

Glory:

Is a fictional story the best you can do to support your god?

Posted by: Michelle R | July 19, 2009 11:10 PM

@Jason A #247: the best part is that he probably lazily copy-pasted it without giving a damn about the thread. I even doubt he wrote this bad story himself! All he cares about is pasting up his horrible little story of "glory". (Which is, by the way, a very weak and clichéed tale.) It's very likely he won't come back to argue or defend it since he has zero argumentative powers. He is brainless. He has no foresight. He is a puppet.

Lazy believers bore me.

Posted by: Chris | July 19, 2009 11:14 PM

He is brainless. He has no foresight. He is a puppet

Actually I'm a poe. And yes, I did copy and paste this mindless story from another website. I'm more of a lazy unbeliever.

Posted by: Michelle R | July 19, 2009 11:16 PM

@Chris: Aaah! Okay, you got me. :P And a few others. Congratulations.

Posted by: Chris | July 19, 2009 11:19 PM

I just thought it was so gobsmackingly moronic that I had to share I pain with others. I guess the moral of the story is since I can't see though the professors eyes or experience his subjective impressions, vishnu is real.........I mean Jesus!

Posted by: idioteraser | July 19, 2009 11:26 PM

Damn stupid commenting system made multiple posts. There needs to be a delete comment feature if multiple posts occur due to a glitch in the system.

Posted by: SteveM | July 19, 2009 11:29 PM

But we do have "sensory perception" of the professor's mind. It's called conversation.

Posted by: Chris | July 19, 2009 11:39 PM

Obviously it's a copy-paste

Yeah it is. I made it.

Posted by: Feynmaniac | July 19, 2009 11:45 PM

Damn stupid commenting system made multiple posts. There needs to be a delete comment feature if multiple posts occur due to a glitch in the system.

READ THE FUCKING ERROR MESSAGE

Posted by: pdferguson | July 20, 2009 12:17 AM

Glory, please keep your silly Sunday school stories to yourself, we're all grownups here and really don't have time for long-winded, childish nonsense like this. Thanks in advance.

Posted by: AristotleTheHun | July 20, 2009 12:21 AM

Hey AKA Obama! The dominos are starting to fall.

Talk Shows, Press Begin Covering Eligibility

http://www.therightsideoflife.com/?p=6700

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0709/Obama__finally__starts_to_sweat.html

Aka Obama sure has done lots of damage for somebody who held the office for less than a year. I wonder who will be POTUS in 2010. My guess is HRC. The Republicans don’t stand a chance, yet.

Posted by: Ragutis | July 20, 2009 12:30 AM

WTF?

Is there an alarm or something? A siren or flashing light that alerts the conspiracy nuts whenever their pet paranoia is mentioned here? Or do these morons just lurk in hopeful anticipation, waiting, pants down and lotion pump primed and within arm's reach?

Lemme try something... ahem:

Lady Di was murdered by the Royal Family as commanded by The Just Endeavor for World Supremacy before she revealed the secret behind the Roswell incident where Paul McCartney crashed the fake Apollo lander after being poisoned by the fluoridated water he drank in Dallas that fateful day he shot JFK for having Bob Marley executed for aiding the spread of government engineered HIV to the white heterosexual community by hiring Jean Seberg to "entertain" a Black Panther stag party.

Fucked up world we live in, eh? Good thing Al Gore's Y2K asteroid from Planet X will destroy the world December 12th, 2012. Just as Nostradamus predicted.

Posted by: GMacs | July 20, 2009 12:32 AM

Mr. "I'm-not-insane",

Trolling is a sign of mental issues. Okay, no more trollfeed from me.

Posted by: AristotleTheHun | July 20, 2009 12:34 AM

Exposing Obama’s PSYOPS Agents and Tactics

http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2009/05/exposing-obamas-psyops-agents-and.html

Rules for Radicals

In 1971, Saul Alinsky wrote an entertaining classic on grassroots organizing titled Rules for Radicals. Those who prefer cooperative tactics describe the book as out-of-date. Nevertheless, it provides some of the best advice on confrontational tactics. Alinsky begins this way:
What follows is for those who want to change the world from what it is to what they believe it should be. The Prince was written by Machiavelli for the Haves on how to hold power. Rules for Radicals is written for the Have-Nots on how to take it away.
His “rules” derive from many successful campaigns where he helped poor people fighting power and privilege
For Alinsky, organizing is the process of highlighting what is wrong and convincing people they can actually do something about it. The two are linked. If people feel they don’t have the power to change a bad situation, they stop thinking about it.

According to Alinsky, the organizer — especially a paid organizer from outside — must first overcome suspicion and establish credibility. Next the organizer must begin the task of agitating: rubbing resentments, fanning hostilities, and searching out controversy. This is necessary to get people to participate. An organizer has to attack apathy and disturb the prevailing patterns of complacent community life where people have simply come to accept a bad situation. Alinsky would say, “The first step in community organization is community disorganization.”

Through a process combining hope and resentment, the organizer tries to create a “mass army” that brings in as many recruits as possible from local organizations, churches, services groups, labor unions, corner gangs, and individuals.

Alinsky provides a collection of rules to guide the process. But he emphasizes these rules must be translated into real-life tactics that are fluid and responsive to the situation at hand.

Rule 1: Power is not only what you have, but what an opponent thinks you have. If your organization is small, hide your numbers in the dark and raise a din that will make everyone think you have many more people than you do.

Rule 2: Never go outside the experience of your people.
The result is confusion, fear, and retreat.

Rule 3: Whenever possible, go outside the experience of an opponent. Here you want to cause confusion, fear, and retreat.

Rule 4: Make opponents live up to their own book of rules. “You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.”

Rule 5: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It’s hard to counterattack ridicule, and it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.

Rule 6: A good tactic is one your people enjoy. “If your people aren’t having a ball doing it, there is something very wrong with the tactic.”

Rule 7: A tactic that drags on for too long becomes a drag. Commitment may become ritualistic as people turn to other issues.

Rule 8: Keep the pressure on. Use different tactics and actions and use all events of the period for your purpose. “The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this that will cause the opposition to react to your advantage.”

Rule 9: The threat is more terrifying than the thing itself. When Alinsky leaked word that large numbers of poor people were going to tie up the washrooms of O’Hare Airport, Chicago city authorities quickly agreed to act on a longstanding commitment to a ghetto organization. They imagined the mayhem as thousands of passengers poured off airplanes to discover every washroom occupied. Then they imagined the international embarrassment and the damage to the city’s reputation.

Rule 10: The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative. Avoid being trapped by an opponent or an interviewer who says, “Okay, what would you do?”

Rule 11: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it. Don’t try to attack abstract corporations or bureaucracies. Identify a responsible individual. Ignore attempts to shift or spread the blame.

According to Alinsky, the main job of the organizer is to bait an opponent into reacting. “The enemy properly goaded and guided in his reaction will be your major strength.”

Gee, who Alinskyed who?

I'm sane enough to not hang around with unpleasant people. Thanks for the support and the all time stat counter record for a Sunday.

Posted by: Brian H | July 20, 2009 12:44 AM

Ragutis, you are my e-hero.

Posted by: TheThomas | July 20, 2009 12:46 AM

I like him; he's funny. Does he hang around here a lot?

Aristotle the Hun= Socrates' --Plato's-- idea of the "Philosopher King". The man made to rule the world. Interesting that he prides himself with the name philosopher-king yet uses an underdog's tactic to accomplish some imaginary win.

You beat us this time Alexander...but you shall rue the day!

Posted by: GMacs | July 20, 2009 1:07 AM

"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality.

Nope, that's amorality. Fail.

Immorality is basically what religious folks call "evil".

For instance: I tend to be amoral, but I try to be a nice person. Religious have a tendency to do immoral things such as psychological abuse and genital mutilation.

Posted by: James F | July 20, 2009 1:16 AM

Well, it's a well-known fact, Sonny Jim, that there's a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world, known as The Pentavirate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers, and meet triannually at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as The Meadows.

Posted by: Andrew | July 20, 2009 1:41 AM

It would annoy me that we even need to do this for people to actually believe he was born in the US, and would annoy me even more that people think this is fake... but I am listening to Dark Side of the Moon, so even this idiocy can't annoy me ^_^

Posted by: MP2K | July 20, 2009 2:09 AM

#226 "Is there anyone in Mensa who is NOT a loon? Seriously. They should be ashamed. Is this an example of affirmative action - there has to be a certain percentage of loons in any organization claiming to be filled with smart people?"

I take it somebody has never read the Basic Laws of Human Stupidity?

http://www.searchlores.org/realicra/basiclawsofhumanstupidity.htm

Posted by: Feynmaniac | July 20, 2009 2:25 AM

The fact that Vox Day, Charlie Wagner (who posted his expired membership card), and Aristotle the Hun are all MENSA members gives credence to the idea that IQ does a mediocre job at measuring intelligence.

Posted by: Midnight Rambler | July 20, 2009 2:30 AM

waldteufel @124:

On my planet, we call this sort of thing crackpottery.

Actually, the scientific term is "psychoceramics".

Posted by: B.T. Murtagh | July 20, 2009 2:39 AM

You can tell it's fake because there's no raised seal.

Go ahead, run your fingers over the monitor - completely smooth!

Posted by: Captain Steve | July 20, 2009 3:23 AM

obamabots. . .ask yourselves:

why doesn't he show the long-form?

doesn't that bother you? if not, you really are twisted.

Posted by: Nate | July 20, 2009 4:04 AM

What do you call a Doctor who graduated bottom of his class?

Doctor.

Also claiming that you belong to any certain group (such as being a member of MENSA, being a Christian or atheist) does not mean shit. Most groups have a very limited set of beliefs or characteristics need for someone to belong. Example: Being a member of MENSA means that you either have a high IQ or you did well on your SATs. It does not mean that you are not bat shit crazy.

Posted by: John | July 20, 2009 4:20 AM

The true conspiracy is Mr.Myers bated this guy somehow to comment on this post.

Posted by: Tom Morris | July 20, 2009 5:27 AM

Oh my. Membership in Mensa proves only that one is desperately trying to prove oneself. It's like going around saying "I'm member #8517749 of the Large Penis Society!"

If you've got a big wang, you just, err, find someone with an appropriately sized orifice and have fun. Similarly, if you are highly intelligent, the thing to do isn't to join a society to talk with others about how intelligent you are, but do something with it: write a book or a symphony or prove the Hodge conjecture or something. Or you could hang out on blogs and talk about how Barack Obama is not really a U.S. citizen and talk about your MENSA membership.

Which reminds me of my now absolute favourite Michael Medved quote regarding the Birther conspiracies:
"It makes us look weird. It makes us look crazy. It makes us look demented. It makes us look sick, troubled, and not suitable for civilized company."
'Not suitable for civilized company'? And that's Michael Medved saying that.

Posted by: DingoJack | July 20, 2009 5:39 AM

Tom Morris - As member #8517749 of the LPS, I resemble that remark! :) - DJ

Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip | July 20, 2009 7:19 AM

I was member #1347 of alt.atheism. Do I win a prize?

Posted by: Stephen Wells | July 20, 2009 7:56 AM

"...big, fuzzy feet..."

You're a hobbit?

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 20, 2009 8:08 AM

Right wing nutjobs like AtH are such fun!

Posted by: Functional Brain | July 20, 2009 8:40 AM

obamabots. . .ask yourselves:

why doesn't he show the long-form?

doesn't that bother you? if not, you really are twisted.

Posted by: TGAP Dad | July 20, 2009 9:30 AM

@JamesF #225

BION, I've never seen Six Feet Under. If it reflects my upbringing at all, I probably need to avoid it.

In the interest of full disclosure (while anonymously posting) I was only married to the psych major for a couple of years. She went on to grad school after our divorce, and committed suicide in her first year.

Posted by: BlueIndependent | July 20, 2009 9:50 AM

conservobots. . .ask yourselves:

why do I hate the truth so vociferously?

doesn't that bother you? if not, you really are twisted.

Posted by: Roger | July 20, 2009 10:15 AM

Captain Steve, AtH and other assorted "birthers" have one thing in common: they are seriously whackadoodle.

Posted by: DingoJack | July 20, 2009 10:31 AM

To further Roger's comment above (#315)-
Cap'n Steve, Current the Bun and assorted birfers: be warned, serious wackadoodly can send you blind, grow hair on your palms, lose you friends and prevent you from influencing anyone (especially if the wackadoodly is practiced in public places) ;) - DJ

Posted by: Marcus Ranum | July 20, 2009 10:51 AM

AristotleTheHun writes:
In 1971, Saul Alinsky wrote an entertaining classic on grassroots organizing titled Rules for Radicals. Those who prefer cooperative tactics describe the book as out-of-date.

Wow - that's cut and pasted everyplace!! I just googled for the prase above and it's almost as if someone has hooked up an internet robot to go post it all over. I bet it's going to do wonders for sales of Alinsky's book but whatever happened to thinking for oneself?

Posted by: Faid | July 20, 2009 11:30 AM

"The lawyer appears to be arguing that even if Obama was born in the U.S. he is not a natural born citizen if his father wasn't"

The hell?

In that case, my mother couldn't have been a natural born citizen, since my grandfather was not one.

Therefore, I couldn't be an American citizen, as a natural born citizen's son (who wasn't born and doesn't live in the States).

Except I AM an American citizen, as the fancy paper I have in some drawer somewhere clearly states.

Therefore that lawyer should be fired for incompetence and ignorance of the law.

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 20, 2009 11:51 AM

Blaming mental illness for beliefs you disagree with is beneath the posters on this blog. It perpetuates stereotypes and casts the mentally ill as unintelligent and ignorant. Scientists and the scientifically literate should know better.

It is not a question of beliefs though. It is a question of thought processes. "Birthers" seem to have broken thought processes that render them unable to comprehend evidence when presented.

Posted by: gaypaganunitarianagnostic | July 20, 2009 12:18 PM

There are CREATIONISTS in Mensa. (I could weep). I think you will find that very few Mensa members are people who have actually accomplished anything major. Evidently the movers and shakers of the world have better things to do.

Posted by: patheticloser | July 20, 2009 12:35 PM

@#323
No doubt some people who believe such things are suffering some form of mental illness. I think most of these people believe it because it pleases them. Much of the crap people buy into without any reality check is what they want to be true. Their thought processes aren't broken at all. They simply refuse to use them. People much prefer to believe in nonsense than science, gods than reality. Are they all mentally ill? No it is part of the human condition to prefer simplistic or magical explanations.

Mental illness isn't a choice. Obstinate insistance on the ridiculous or unprovable is. Buying into conspiracy theories is something that some mentally ill people do. But not all people who buy into them are mentally ill or have broken thought processes.

I may be crazy but I don't believe in nonsense and I resent being lumped in with people who do. Or rather having them lumped in with me.

Posted by: Sally Hill | July 20, 2009 1:25 PM

Allen Kellogg: WHAT? Your post made no sense. You MUST use the law in effect at the time of his birth, NOT what is in effect today. The law at the time was this: A mother who held United States citizenship could pass citizenship to her child only if she had lived in the United States or its territories for 10 continuous years, with five of those years coming after she reached the age of 16. That being the case, Ms. Dunham would have had to have been 21 at the time Obama was born in order to make him a Natural Born US Citizen.

People want to use his father to make him black, but want to discount his father's heritage when it doesn't suit their needs - can't have it both ways.

Posted by: DingoJack | July 20, 2009 1:34 PM

Sally Hill - Yes I thought so too, but that applies only to naturalized citizens, not to natural-born ones. Because President Obama's mother was born in Kansas, of natural-born citizens it doesn't and has never applied to her.
Or at least that's how it was explained to me - I'm a stoopid foreigner. - DJ

Posted by: Steve_C | July 20, 2009 1:44 PM

Obama's mom is from Kansas. Is natural born... end of story. It actually doesn't matter where he was born because his mom was an american citizen since birth. Your child is an american citizen regardless of where it's born if the parent is a US natural born citizen. You don't lose your citizenship if you live overseas for years.

And having a foreign father doesn't put that into question in the slightest. At most Obama would have a dual citizenship. And he never has.

Posted by: Nominal Egg | July 20, 2009 2:14 PM

People want to use his father to make him black...

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 20, 2009 2:20 PM

I may be crazy but I don't believe in nonsense and I resent being lumped in with people who do. Or rather having them lumped in with me.

"Lighten up, Francis!"¹

When regular people use the word crazy in common, nonclinical discourse, they're not addressing actual mental illness, anymore than my teenage self was actually insulting his grandmother when he called his father an "SOB" all those years ago.

If you truly don't believe in nonsense, you can feel free to assume that when some of us call people who do believe in nonsense "crazy," we're not talking about you!

¹ I hope that clip is what I think it is; I can't preview it from my work computer.

Posted by: Sally Hill | July 20, 2009 2:28 PM

Sorry for the double post - people - there is a HUGE difference between US Citizen and Natural Born Citizen. Naturalized has nothing to do with passing Natural Born Citizen status to your baby should it be born outside of the US. Again, she would have had to have been 21 years old at the time of his birth to pass NBC status to him - if he were born outside of the country.

Actually Obama himself admits on his own website that he WAS a dual citizen at birth. Given that fact makes his dual-loyalties very much a problem - a problem that the Founding Fathers wanted to guard against. Many say that he gave up any foreign citizen rights after his 21st birthday - HOWEVER - well after his 21st birthday he travelled to Kenya(on the US Taxpayer dollar) to campaign for a paternal relative who believes in Sharia Law. Personally, I find this disturbing and dangerous. Did he campaign for Odigna out of paternal loyalty (you know the father that didn't pass anything to him except his African Americanism) -OR because he too believes in Sharia Law?

Oh - surely he doesn't believe is Sharia Law - right? So does he continue to have UN-American loyalities? Opps.. then he appointed Harold Koh as a legal advisor. Koh not only believes in Sharia Law, but also Transnationalism.

If you don't know the meaning of either of these terms, I suggest you look them up. Personally, I don't find his father's heritage IRRELEVANT at all. Obama either continues to have dual loyalities or he has very dangerous UN-American ideals. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS!

Posted by: idioteraser | July 20, 2009 2:38 PM

" - HOWEVER - well after his 21st birthday he travelled to Kenya(on the US Taxpayer dollar) to campaign for a paternal relative who believes in Sharia Law."

That claim has been debunked. There is a reason why birthers are thought to be idiots and this a huge number one not bothering to fact check things. Odinga has never been shown to be a relative wheter blood or by marriage. Odinga only made the claim last year in fact.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/kenya.asp

Dual-citizens aren't prevented from being president of the US especially if the dual citizen was granted automatically by virtue of birth in a certain area, being married to a person, being adopted by a person, or having a person as a parent.

Obama's Kenyan citizenship expired when he turned 21 since Kenya doesn't allow dual citzens beyond the age of 21. They either have to renounce their other citzenship or lose their kenyan citzenship.

The US has no such renoucement requirement.

Posted by: idioteraser | July 20, 2009 2:43 PM

"Allen Kellogg: WHAT? Your post made no sense. You MUST use the law in effect at the time of his birth, NOT what is in effect today."

This is why laws often have a grandfather clause in them to correct past mistakes in laws.

Current law corrected the old law you are refering to. So Obama is a natural born citizen of the US since otherwise tens of millions of Americans wouldn't be eligible for various things due to a technicality.

Posted by: ekcol | July 20, 2009 2:53 PM

People want to use his father to make him black, but want to discount his father's heritage when it doesn't suit their needs - can't have it both ways.

Damn straight. You can either be black or American, not both!

Posted by: Roger | July 20, 2009 2:56 PM

Sally Hill, dear, you are one big ole wackadoodle. "African Americanism"? Sharia law and transnationalism? You sure throw around a lot of words, but none of them are coherent.

Posted by: ekcol | July 20, 2009 3:00 PM

Uh oh, the html filter removed my "end sarcasm" tag.

Now #345 just makes me look like a racist asshat.

Posted by: Nominal Egg | July 20, 2009 3:06 PM

Now #345 just makes me look like a racist asshat.

Posted by: patheticloser | July 20, 2009 3:09 PM

My name's not Francis and now you have made me feel irrationally angry so fuck off.

I couldn't watch the whatever because my daughter gets very upset over such things and she says fuck off too.

Apparently my point was not clear or I didn't have one. So fuck off.

Posted by: Insightful Ape | July 20, 2009 3:16 PM

Dwar Attila the Hun,
It has been a pleasure being trolled by you. (Seriously, to see how low the right wingers have fallen).
Just a point that I don't think will get through to you, but hopefully to others reading this:
Delusional Disorder is a term in psychiatry, applied to people who seem to be quite reasonable when not confronted on the subject of their wackiness. A good exapmle would be middle aged executives who can never be dissuaded from the idea that their spouse is cheating on them, despite absence of evidence .
So no, your claim that you are a psychotherapist doesn't mean you are not crazy. It does mean that you are a bald faced liar, or alternatively, absolutely incompetent in your work and they need to take your license away.
This is what your logic boils down to: I am psychotherapist, therefore, the birth certificate is not valid.
Is it clear now why I said it is a pleasure to be trolled by you? Thank you Lord, for making our adversaries so stupid.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 20, 2009 3:23 PM

OK, now I'm 97.832% certain that patheticloser is a Poe, but what the hell, I'll play:

My name's not Francis...

How fascinatingly well you're channeling the clip you claim you couldn't watch... and yet you somehow know that your...

...daughter gets very upset over such things...

...(what things, since you didn't watch?)...

...and she says fuck off too.

Nice. Does she kiss her mother with that mouth?

In any case, since I...

...have made [you] feel irrationally angry...

...it appears my work here is done, and I can fuck off in peace. ;^)

Rev BDC: I thought it was a ~3-second clip with just the "lighten up, Francis" line. So? (I can check it this evening when I get home from work.)

Posted by: Watchman | July 20, 2009 3:34 PM

DingoJack:

Watchman - If something is "plain" is it "obvious" too? - curiously OT on this one, DJ

Its obviousness was plain, yes, and my pointing it out was reiteratively redundant. Or something. ;-)

Posted by: TheBlackCat | July 20, 2009 3:42 PM

Let me see if I have this straight. Because Obama visited family in another country, he therefore still has dual citizenship? How does that make even the slightest bit of sense.

And of course Obama does not support Sharia law, he isn't Muslim, he's Christian.

Posted by: Pearl-clutching Faitheist | July 20, 2009 3:54 PM

he isn't Muslim, he's Christian.

unfortunate (that he's any denomination). Though, some voices on the Right have accused him of being a closet secularist (!!!), apparently he hasn't been going to church enough for their taste. Me, I hope they are right and he's actually a politically-shrewd atheist. Subvert from the inside, kind of thing. Some argue Lincoln did the same thing...

Posted by: Acronym Jim | July 20, 2009 4:04 PM

Idioteraser, there is another option you may want to try that has worked for me every time so far.

While awaiting your comment to pose, open a new tab and surf to pharyngula. If your comment appears in the new tab, just close the old tab.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 20, 2009 4:10 PM

DingoJack:

Sally Hill - President Obama is a natural-born citizen because: a) At least one of his parents are natural-born (his mother) & b) He was born on US territory (Hawaii)

Actually, your & should be or, since b) alone (which is true) is sufficient to establish Obama as a "natural born citizen," regardless of the identity or nationality of his parents. a) is also sufficient, subject some additional legal conditions (which Obama's mother appears to meet) to establish Obama's eligibility independently of b).

Obama has provided explicitly legally sufficient evidence of his eligibility... evidence which would have been accepted without question if he were anything other than a liberal¹, African-American Democrat first running for and then elected to the presidency.

While bloviating falsely about what Obama is supposedly hiding, the accusers have presented the cubed root of fuck all in the way of affirmative evidence supporting their contentions that he was born outside the U.S., or that he somehow renounced or voided his citizenship through his international travel.

They are simply trying to wish away the clearly expressed will of the electorate, because the notion of an uppity, socialist, Muslim darky living in the White House makes their heads assplode... just like the same people (or folks just like them) tried to phoney up cocaine smuggling and murder conspiracies to get that dope-smoking, skirt-chasing, draft-dodging hippy out of the White House almost as soon as he moved in back in '93.

Y'all lost, y'hear? Deal with it.

(I seem to have gotten a bit wound up, there, but it wasn't aimed at you personally, DingoJack; you just gave me the soapbox to climb up on.)

¹By American political standards, I mean; you European liberals can put your hands down. ;^)

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 20, 2009 4:19 PM

this post needs more bacon

Bullshit. It needs more cowbell.

Even as I type this, kidnapped Chinese scientists are toiling in my underground labs, under the watchful eyes of my brutish, machine-gun-toting hordes, to create the bacon cowbells that will enable me to extort one milllllion dollars from the leaders of the free world.

Posted by: Watchman | July 20, 2009 4:43 PM

bacon cowbells

bacon cowbells = pigbells

Posted by: Alan Kellogg | July 20, 2009 4:48 PM

Sally Hill, #329

If what you said were true that would mean that there are tens of millions of people out there who are not natural born American citizens when they think they are. In fact, since it's doubtful those people ever got naturalized, or even applied for resident alien status, they are illegal aliens in their own country.

You know what this means? It means that everyone born to a teenage mother is in this country illegally, and can therefor be deported. That's the true crime behind teenage pregnancy, teenage mothers are engaged in smuggling illegal aliens into the country via their uterus. Something must be done about this!

(I know, but sometimes you gotta make the sarcasm broad.)

Posted by: dean | July 20, 2009 4:52 PM

"I know, but sometimes you gotta make the sarcasm broad"

Good comment Alan: of course, if people like Sally didn't make their stupid so broad there wouldn't be any need for your observation.

Posted by: W. Kevin Vicklund | July 20, 2009 4:55 PM

#314,318

NAR Member #40904. That was easy to remember!

Posted by: Stu | July 20, 2009 5:14 PM

I know, but sometimes you gotta make the sarcasm broad.

Wow, this site is really, really sexist.

Posted by: Jack | July 20, 2009 6:02 PM

I'd just like to say that every single member of MENSA I have ever met has, without exception, been a socially gauche twat with ego issues and, not infrequently, an entertaining array of nervous tics.

And I say that as someone whose IQ more-than-comfortably exceeds MENSA's "You must be at least this much of a prick to ride" requirement

Posted by: Lynna | July 20, 2009 6:22 PM

For a well-researched answer to the dual-citizenship question-and-lies debate, I like this article:
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | July 20, 2009 7:12 PM

The birthers never give any evidence that Obama isn't a natural born US citizen. They make claims like "we know he was born in Kenya" and "since he lived in Indonesia and visited Pakistan, he forfeited his citizenship" and "even though the State of Hawaii has certified that he was born there and has a properly issued birth certificate, they're lying because we say so." But they never offer a Kenyan birth certificate (at least one that doesn't look like it was printed on the back of a grocery list) or a Pakistani naturalization certificate.

C'mon, birthers, show us what you've got, instead of making idle conjectures and frivolous claims.

Posted by: Laurie | July 20, 2009 8:10 PM

Well, to come back to the Keyes v. Obama complaint, which I have read, the "evidence" the birthers claim to have is extremely thin. (Unfortunately, I can't link to it because you need a PACER account to read the complaint.)

Their claims come down to the following four things: (1) A lot of non-sense about how the Hawaii birth certificate supposedly doesn't really prove anything and supposedly might be forged; (2) an inference that Obama must have used a foreign passport to travel to Pakistan due to the tensions between the U.S. and Pakistan at the time of his trip (a claim which, even if true, would not strip Obama of his natural-born American citizenship); (3) a quotation from a Kenyan radio show in which a Kenyan ambassador was claimed that Obama's birthplace in Kenya is well-known as a tourist attraction (yeah, like no one would try to fleece tourists by saying, "Obama was born here") and (4) unfounded speculation with no evidence to support it that Obama's school records might show that he applied for some kind of U.S. government scholarship for foreign students. There is no evidence presented to support the latter speculation.

In other words, it's a whole big pile o' nothing.

I also did some asking some former consular officers I know. At least according to them, the CURRENT version of the natural-born citizenship statute would control, not the version in effect when Obama was born (which makes sense I think). So even if he was born on foreign soil, his natural-born American mother certainly had enough American residency to qualify him as natural-born under the current statute.

Posted by: Lynx | July 20, 2009 8:59 PM

Ah, typoes after a long day at work.

"though they're clearly wrong"

#386, it is either your eyes or a crappy monitor.

Posted by: spinetingler | July 20, 2009 11:40 PM

Lets hope no adoptee ever runs for president.

All we _have_ are fake/falsified/amended/altered birth certificates.

Bastard Nation: http://www.bastards.org/

Adult adoptees in all but four states and two commonwealths in the United States (Kansas, Alaska, Oregon, Alabama, Puerto Rico and the U.S.Virgin Islands) and in all Canadian provinces are forbidden unconditional access to their original birth certificates. Outmoded Depression-era laws create "amended" birth certificates that replace the names of the adoptee's biological parents with those of the adoptive parents as well as frequently falsify other birth information. The adoptee's original birth certificate and records of adoption are permanently sealed in closed records states by laws passed largely after World War II. These laws are a relic of the culture of shame that stigmatized infertility, out-of-wedlock birth and adoption. Even those adoptees now being raised in open adoptions, in which there is some contact between birth and adoptive families, are not allowed access to their original birth records when they reach adulthood.

Posted by: Faithless | July 21, 2009 4:24 AM

Now, see, I've only got about 20 posts into this thread and already I can't tell whether the 'denialist' posts are real or parody...

Is there something in the water, in the US, or subliminal messages played at football and baseball matches when the marching band is on - why is it that you have such a large number of eejits per square mile? The ratio per head is even worse.

Posted by: Faithless | July 21, 2009 4:56 AM

US law may be different.

But in the UK, this is how it works.

The real document, the basic document, is the REGISTER of births, deaths and marriages. This is where you find the crucial information.

However, the Register itself used to be an enormous paper file, and is now an enormous digital file. You cannot refer to it (I suppose it's possible that you can if you turn up in person at the right place, I'm unsure) for simple practical and logistical purposes.

The so-called 'birth certificate' is, in law, an Office Copy of the entry within the Register. It is a document that by its very existence represents the act of the Registrar - the person charged with the maintenance of the register - certifying (hence 'certificate') that he has located the relevant entry in the Register and this is what it says.

Consequently this search for 'an original' birth certificate is a mistake, a category error. Any lawyer looking at a birth certificate does not say 'Oo! Must be a fake. BECAUSE was only issued two years ago/doesn't look like it was typewritten as must have been the case in 1961/is in a format only used since 19XX', because he knows that if you apply for a certificate of an entry on the Register, you will get one in whatever is the current format.

My birth certificate - albeit it is the one which was provided to my parents shortly after my birth - actually states that it certifies an entry on the Register of my birth details.

If you look at the bottom of the Hawaiian certificate it says 'This copy...', and the above may explain (if US law is reasonably similar to UK law) why!

Posted by: Faithless | July 21, 2009 5:08 AM

I'm sorry, I should have said in my previous message "...any ENGLISH lawyer..."

This is because American law schools apparently turn out, on a routine basis, 'qualified' lawyers who cannot think their way out of a room with four doors. Ann Coulter is one - and she clerked for a senior judge, for chrissake - and of course Philip Berg is another.

Berg seems to be completely unaware of how a) .jpg artifacts and b) original scanning resolution can affect the way an image of a scanned document will reproduce.

That's just to start with. He seems to be completely unfamiliar, also, with the concept of Certified Office Copies being used to prove in court what could only otherwise have been proved (before the computer age) by dragging in a huge bound volume of the Register (highly impractical) and which, once outside the control of the Registrar, could potentially be damaged or destroyed thus obliterating the only lawful record of all the information it contained (highly risky).

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 21, 2009 10:16 AM

SC:

I can't watch that video from my work computer, but maybe it's the same clip I just heard Rachel Maddow talking about (on the podcast of her show from yesterday)... a bunch of Birthers taking over a Republican congressman's "town hall" rally?

Rachel was pointing out that, mostly, the Birthers are causing trouble for "normal" Republicans, rather than for Obama and his political allies. As long as they don't get any more broad public traction than their 9/11 Truther brethren have, perhaps they're A Feature, Not a Bug™, at least from the POV of those of us who prefer Obama's agenda to the alternative.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | July 21, 2009 10:39 AM

that vid: yikes!

Posted by: Acronym Jim | July 21, 2009 11:01 AM

correction: "ignorant"

Acronym "somewhat well-versed in history, yet dictionarily ignorant" Jim

Posted by: LawnBoy | July 21, 2009 1:29 PM

There was lots of right-wing nuttiness at Mike Castle's town hall:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/21/castle-townhall/

Posted by: John | July 21, 2009 4:51 PM

OK, but freethinkers question anything and everything, right PZ? Analyze, question, criticize, and reanalyze. Any rationalist or materialist would support this method.

The document above, from its font, layout, and appearance, is modern, contemporary. In other words, it does not date or originate from the time and year of Obama's birth. I have a similar document from my state. It's use is to indicate that a document recording my birth exists in the records office of the municipality in which I was born, but the document is not considered a Birth Certificate--or proof of citizenship--in any legal or formal sense. How do I know? I once took it with me to my Post Office's Passport Officer when applying for my first passport (some 20 years ago). I was naive and thought that the document was my Birth Certificate. I was wrong. I was quickly told by the Post Master that I couldn't use the document--similar to Obama's above--to prove or establish my citizenship and therefore it would not be accepted for the passport application. I was told to make a request to record's office of the city of my birth, pay a fee, and get a much more detailed record of birth, aka a real "Birth Certificate."

So, if the Post Office and Department of State wouldn't accept it, why should I or any other citizen? It certainly wouldn't set back Obama very much to get the real Birth Certificate and lay the matter to rest in one fell swoop. I frankly don't understand why he wouldn't. Simplest thing in the world to do.

The above document might be "evidence" that a Birth Certificate exists, but it is not a legally binding document not does it contain the detail that a real Birth certificate record would contain. I find it odd that someone like you, PZ, would not demand direct proof. Instead, you settle for mere inference. And that's a shakey ground on which to build a "truth".

Posted by: Quixotic | July 21, 2009 5:17 PM

Funny how right pz was..408 comments so far...this really does annoy people. I must have been under a rock. I had no idea this shit was taken seriously in some circles.

Posted by: John | July 21, 2009 5:34 PM

"Don't you think somewhere in the process of becoming president he had to provide his actual birth certificate?"

Steve C,

That is a statement of faith, not proof. To me, your statement is the equivalent of "somewhere during evolution God must have intervened in the process and infused man with an immortal soul."

I do not share your faith that politicians follow our Constitution to the "T". Why? Because I can point to real actions that they have taken. They have start wars on lies, such as Bush; they take payola and trade influence for favors; they transgress other laws all the time; they deny due process and create extra-legal sistuations to avoid following our laws (witness Guantanomo Bay). If Obama has a Birth Certificate showing birth on U.S. soil, you and I have never seen it if all you have to point to is the above. I have a friend born in Canada who has a U.S. Passport. Why? Simply because she became a U.S. Citizen first. Many millions of immigrants, such as my friend, are now U.S. citizens with U.S. Passports, but they can never be president. So your statement doesn't hold water. Oh, sure, you can shout "fuck, yea" all you want, but give me proof not illogical statements such as yours.

It is an invalid inference to say that that since a U.S. citizen possesses a U.S. Passport, that he/she must have been born in the U.S. and therefore can serve as president under our constitution. Go ask Ahnold in California, or Henry Kissinger, if they will be running for president anytime soon.

Sorry, Steve C. your "logic" is the "fucking joke" here. Go back to school for awhile.

Posted by: Ichthyic | July 21, 2009 5:41 PM

That is a statement of faith, not proof.

It's a statement based on the fact that he would have had to have provided a legitimate birth certificate any number of times, based on the history of his life.

It would take a tremendous amount of imagination to suppose he could have avoided all of them, some of which are even addressed here:

http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2008/11/27/6-ways-challenges-to-obamas-citizenship-fail/

so who has the bigger imagination?

I'd say you.

Posted by: Steve_C | July 21, 2009 5:54 PM

http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_5.jpg

Hey look! Embossed seal AND folds... holy shit! It's a birth certificate!

Posted by: idioteraser | July 21, 2009 7:12 PM

"The above document might be "evidence" that a Birth Certificate exists, but it is not a legally binding document not does it contain the detail that a real Birth certificate record would contain. "

Wrong. Every person born in Hawaii who for the past ten years or more who has requested a copy of their birth certificate (you only ever get a copy) will tell you that is what they get and that is valid not only in courts of law but also will get a passport.

I have a Birth Registration Card issued by Florida it doesn't the hospital where I was born or the attending doctor's name nor does it have my parents name. Guess what anytime I need to provide a form of ID along with a state issued Identification Card (disabled so I cannot drive) that card is accepted even more readily then my social security card. The only things they have to check to confirm a person's identity on a birth certificate is the birth number, person's name, date of birth.

Did you miss the part of the certificate that says "This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceding? It also has the part of Hawaiian legal code that states that in detail.

Also there are two types of Birth Certificates one for fetuses that are delivered dead and one for fetuses delivered alive at the time of birth. Both fetal deaths ala miscarriages, stillborns are recorded by hospitals and submitted to the state department of health for use in vital statistics. Since people don't request these certificates most people have no fucking idea they even evist.

Hence a certificate of live birth which a number of states now only produce since the long form certificate is held under privacy laws dating back decades and that reduces identity thefts.

Posted by: BlueIndependent | July 22, 2009 5:01 PM

"...The document above, from its font, layout, and appearance, is modern, contemporary. In other words, it does not date or originate from the time and year of Obama's birth. I have a similar document from my state. It's use is to indicate that a document recording my birth exists in the records office of the municipality in which I was born, but the document is not considered a Birth Certificate--or proof of citizenship--in any legal or formal sense..."

Total red herring bullshit argument. You are moving the goal posts yet again. Now you want Obama to find the absolute original document and present it to you personally. Tell me, where is your original birth certificate? How do I know you're not a subversive plant trying to take down the POTUS? Why don't you show me your original BC before I take your question seriously?

Your argument is crap. *I* don't have my absolute original BC. By your thin standards I could feasibly be deported. And do you not see the obvious hole in what you just said? If the copy signifies that original documentation exists, then wouldn't you expect the same is probably true of Obama? Oh no wait that can't be the case because you've got a conspiracy to perpetrate.

"...How do I know? I once took it with me to my Post Office's Passport Officer when applying for my first passport (some 20 years ago). I was naive and thought that the document was my Birth Certificate. I was wrong. I was quickly told by the Post Master that I couldn't use the document--similar to Obama's above--to prove or establish my citizenship and therefore it would not be accepted for the passport application. I was told to make a request to record's office of the city of my birth, pay a fee, and get a much more detailed record of birth, aka a real "Birth Certificate..."

That document, copy or not, is valid and acceptable as a BC. How do I know? A few months ago I used one to get a passport. Guess what else? I was told by the records office that my copy from my home state and county, is valid as a birth certificate. Should I throw any more at you? How about the fact that I just used that "copy" to start a job. How about the fact that I've used that "copy" several times in the last few months to do many things, it being the most accepted and used document of my citizenship status?

John, you are 100% wrong. Own it. Further, you are assuming from your experience with the passport that A) the postal worker you came across knew what he/she was doing, B) that becuse you had a problem with that document that automatically means Obama's is false, C) that you didn't do anything wrong trying to get a passport and thus the fault was with the document, and D) that there might be state-to-state differences with these things. I just got a passport four months ago with essentially the exact same sort of document from my home state. From my own experience you are full of it. And this is aside from the fact that I did all these things with this "copy" document in the "post-9/11 world". So the question is, what are you really getting at?

And what exactly is a "long-form" BC? I have yet to hear or see what this magical document is. My birth certificate looks essentially like Obaa's aside from the fact that it is from a different state. My document is very plain and simple, and IMO it feels a bit chintzy and looks rather unofficial. Yet, it is official, as is my citizenship status. Further, supposing this "long-form" BC exists, what information is this thing supposed to have? I've never been asked to show such a document myself, and I have never heard of such a piece of paper until Obama became president. Tell us: What information is this document supposed to provide on a person who's mere minutes from coming out of the womb? Does it list his astrological symbol? The quote of the day at the time of birth? This day in history perhaps?

The long and the short of it is birthers don't have a thing to go on. You get shot down like creationists at every turn, and you have to keep shifting peoples' eyes from the man behind the curtain in order to escape the ridicule you deserve. You are not credible, you have no evidence, and you are wrong.

Posted by: Reynold | July 23, 2009 9:41 PM

The Rapture Ready people think that since Michael Medved believes that Obama's birth certificate is genuine, that he's a "liberal".

How messed up is that?

Posted by: BlueIndependent | July 24, 2009 7:58 PM

I knew of but hadn't actually heard Orly Taitz until yesterday. When I did I had to hang my head in shame for humanity, not only because she's a nutcase, not only because she has had three or four "careers" in totally unrelated industries in what appears to be around 20-25 years of work as an adult (judging by the age she appears to be), not only because she has also proven herself inept and incompetent in those same industries, but additionally because of the thick accent she displayed, which brings forth the richest of ironies considering the subject of her crusade. Are these birthers not the modern embodiment of a fascist Don Quixote? Did anyone else find it rich that a person not born in this country wants to help prosecute a case against POTUS Obama about his not being a natural-born US citizen?

As for wanting this non-scandal to become the national story, I certainly don't I was a teenager who knew next to nothing of what went on during the 90s and the Clinton scandals with Whitewater, Lewinsky, etc. (aside from the obvious details, one being about land, the other sex). Now that I'm an adult and have done some research and know what happened, I would absolutely NOT want the same thing to happen to Obama and put the country through another round of conservative tax-wasting BS that will undoubtedly earn rethugs a few votes siphoning off a few more idiots, enough to make 2012 closer than it should ever be. It would also be a chance for them to try and get Obama in front of a court to say something they will inevitably cry perjury on, thus keeping the cycle of rethug insanity and Regnery's profits rolling for two more decades.

The move by Rep. Campbell from CA is indicative of such an attempt. Should he get his POTUS birth certificate non-bill passed (which all indications are that it most certainly won't with only 10 people signing on, save the fact that Congress is majority D), it would mean they could do everything they could to tie Obama up in court hearings on his BC during the 2012 race, thus helping to spread unwarranted speculation and lies that could very well hand them the White House again. All they need is a story and a legal means to stop up Democrats from doing anything and they get their way.