Someday, someone will be able to tell me what distinguishes the theology of Wiley Drake from the theology of any random con man.
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« There is a family resemblance | Main | The Disco Institute has a new hack »
Sophisticated theology
Category: Religion
Posted on: July 15, 2009 10:16 AM, by PZ Myers
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Comments
Posted by: SEF | July 15, 2009 10:25 AM
Wow - is he really called "Wiley" Drake (like Wiley / Wile E. Coyote)?!
Posted by: Rob Clack | July 15, 2009 10:26 AM
Fortunately, prayer is completely ineffective, so he can pray all he likes!
Posted by: Fluffybunnyfeet | July 15, 2009 10:28 AM
"theology" : "con man" = "potato" : "po-tah-to"
Posted by: MPG | July 15, 2009 10:28 AM
Love his tangled "don't shoot the messenger" get-out clause: "God says Obama should die, so I'm praying to God to make it happen". Ri-i-ight...and if it really was God's will, don't you think he could manage it without a metaphorical elbow in the ribs from you, Wile E.? What at colossal asshat.
Posted by: Abdul Alhazred
|
July 15, 2009 10:29 AM
If he can summon a spirit to kill someone, that means he's an evil wizard. Right?
Posted by: Damon B. | July 15, 2009 10:31 AM
I see two possibilities here. Either:
A) This nutjob really thinks that his prayer has some sort of power that can influence the well-being of President Obama (or anyone else, really), or
B) He really doesn't actually believe that prayer can do it.
I'm guessing it's probably A.
So it's one thing for someone to say, "Gosh I really wish So-and-So would keel over," but is it different for someone to say it and then actually, honestly, truly believe that they have some sort of ability to make it happen?
Posted by: toth | July 15, 2009 10:31 AM
I'm touched by the Christian love.
To be fair, I don't think he's necessarily wrong--I think the Bible does support the notion of hit prayers.
Posted by: Standard curve
|
July 15, 2009 10:33 AM
The problem is that he is praying out loud to his addled congregation, and it only takes one unstable person to think that they are the answer to that prayer.
Posted by: james | July 15, 2009 10:41 AM
#8. great and horrifying point. I can hear it now from some wackjob fundy, "gawd spoke to me and told me I was the chosen one to follow his wishes and.....".
Posted by: Alverant | July 15, 2009 10:44 AM
What's the legality of preying for an elected official to be killed? (and would the answer change if someone preyed for W's demise?)
Posted by: daveau
|
July 15, 2009 10:45 AM
Sure, that defense works all the time. Good thing Obama doesn't believe in the power of prayer. Oh, wait...
Posted by: Penguinsaur | July 15, 2009 10:45 AM
Recently an SBC church was kicked out for not going out of its way to treat gays like shit. This guy has recieved no punishment.
not that I'm implying that a denomination born to defend slavery as biblically okay is abunch of drooling bigots who kick people out for not hating gays and reward them for wanting the first black president to die. No idea where someone would get that impression.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 15, 2009 10:45 AM
PZ:
"Any random con man" doesn't usually call for the supernatural assassination of the president. Otherwise, no difference at all.
Here's the dilemma for rationalists: Do we want the Secret Service to treat this seriously as a threat, with the attendant risk that it will be seen as acknowledging the effectiveness of prayer (at least to the wingnut chattering class), or do we want them to laugh it off, validating the silliness of prayer but leaving open the risk that some addled parishoner will see himself (probably not "herself," to the credit of the fairer sex) as God's agent in this matter.
Grrrrrrr.....
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 10:46 AM
This is pure witch craft. Begging a supernatural entity to do something. That it is evil is also typical.
I've reached the conclusion that fundie xianity is a form of satanism.
1. They have inverted xianity.
2. They worship a monsterous, inept, sadistic god.
3. The followers are evil. They lie continually. Many are crazy. They glorify ignorance and nihilism.
4. Some of them, like Wiley practice witch craft.
Really, could you tell the difference between Wiley Drake and his followers and a group worshipping the devil? I can't.
Posted by: Iason Ouabache | July 15, 2009 10:47 AM
How is this "death threat by proxy" not illegal?
Posted by: theshortearedowl | July 15, 2009 10:50 AM
What makes this man any different from the crazy Muslim preachers praying for the death of the President and the fall of the West in favour of their own version of government? Especially to a congregation that would have the means to try and do something about it? You begin to see why the UK put in the 'incitement to violence' laws - this isn't about freedom of speech, it's about abusing positions of authority.
Posted by: Mozglubov | July 15, 2009 10:55 AM
I don't recall anything in the Bible that mentions Obama... Now if we are praying anyone who violates Biblical rules die, that means a lot of pork eaters are in trouble...Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 15, 2009 10:56 AM
IANAL, but AFAIK there are incitement laws in the U.S.; it's just that the standard of proof (i.e., that the speech in question is specifically intended to incite illegal behavior) is very high. Maybe someone who is a lawyer can chime in, but even here in the Land of the First Amendment®, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theatre.
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 10:56 AM
This comparison insults con men who, after all, are only after money.
What is the difference between Wiley Drake and any Dark witch, satanist, or crazed murderous xian or moslem terrorist? Nothing whatsoever.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 15, 2009 10:58 AM
Does anyone want a wager someone will claim that Christianity is not what this man is about ?
Theology lacks any method of deciding which views on god are correct. Sure some views are better for society than others, but the impact of different religious opinions on society is not a theological issue. It is simply becomes a matter of opinion.
If someone wants to claim the Earth is 6000 years old, I can point out that such an opinion is not supported by the evidence. I cannot point out that such an opinion is bad theology since theology lacks the means of telling good theology from bad, or even what it means to talk of good and bad theology.
Posted by: Eamon Knight | July 15, 2009 11:04 AM
Hypothetically speaking:
1) If I threaten to personally assassinate the President, I get a visit from the FBI (and maybe further sanctions, depending on how credible I sound, whether I've made concrete plans, etc).
2) If I threaten to hire a hitman, or otherwise encourage others, to assassinate the President: See #1.
3) If I encourage my Cosmic Hitman (a.k.a. God) to assassinate the President.....probably nothing much of substance happens to me.
Actually, I really hope they are tracking these crazies: irrespective of whether there's a God who listens to these sorts of prayers, there is certainly a history of people getting tired of waiting for God to act, and hurrying matters along themselves.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 15, 2009 11:05 AM
In the UK one of the tests used is what a reasonable person would think a person making inflammatory statements likes this was intending. I think it could be argued that Drake's comments would not be covered by incitement to violence laws, but only because a reasonable person on hearing them would conclude Drake is insane.
Posted by: Yiab
|
July 15, 2009 11:07 AM
Your average con man usually pretends he doesn't want anybody hurt or killed.
#14: Satanists tend to say things like these:
Drake sounds worse, and much more Christian.
Posted by: BAllanJ | July 15, 2009 11:08 AM
I disagree. I've maintained for a while that most, if not all, fundy preachers are actually atheists who have found a good con. If you run the numbers for this, most con men are preachers. And I'm not sure how many of those you'd have to check to find one who supports this sorta praying if they can make a buck on it.
Posted by: Kismet | July 15, 2009 11:08 AM
Slightly offtopic: Do you like polls? They're asking "How do you like the [Austrian] atheist [bus] campaign?"
http://wien.orf.at/stories/375557/
Ich finde sie sehr gut. (I think it's great)
Sie stört mich. (offensive/disruptive)
Sie ist mir egal. (don't care)
Good to see the campaign after it was almost prohibited.
Posted by: Abdul Alhazred
|
July 15, 2009 11:09 AM
So much for Christian "morality".
Hey. Maybe Tiller repented at the last moment.
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 11:11 AM
I take your point. But xian theology does have an outside arbiter. The bible mostly and the collected wisdom* of millenia of analysis and discussion. {Wisdom* here is used somewhat sarcastically.} The other arbiters are the priests who claim to talk to god and make rolling changes based on god's new orders. The Pope, Mormon president, and people living under bridges with serious drug and alcohol problems and so on.
Of course, the bible can be used to justify almost anything because it is a hopeless mish mash. In this case, the bible would say that Wiley Drake should be stoned to death. The bible says in many places that False Prophets should be stoned, as should witches. Drake is both.
Posted by: Ranson | July 15, 2009 11:12 AM
@ Abdul Alhazred #5
Possibly, but I'll bet Obama has a strong damage resistance for his opposed checks against the spirit.
...
Sorry, been reading Shadowrun sourcebooks lately.
Posted by: robotaholic
|
July 15, 2009 11:14 AM
Sorry, there is nothing in the known universe that can make me press than play button. I just got up and I'd rather not have such vile poision this early-
Posted by: Lynna | July 15, 2009 11:17 AM
"Imprecatory prayer" -- They have a special phrase to describe this particular form of idiocy. If you don't know the words, you're not a sophisticated theologian. This guy should get together with Ken the fanboy on the Son of the Bride of the... thread. They could circle each other throwing out meaningless phrases that give them a warm feeling in their nether parts.
Drake thinks he can discern God's will and is just trying to wake the Slacker up so he'll smite the President.
Posted by: Patches | July 15, 2009 11:17 AM
So, if the FBI doesn't act on this, isn't that pretty much the same as the government taking the position that they have no expectation for prayer to produce any credible results?
Posted by: matt | July 15, 2009 11:19 AM
this is why the U.S. should also adopt a version of the "incitement to violence" law,
people like this that have any kind of authority or not abuse free speech
if they have any authority or even a perceived authority it adds some weight to their words and the MSM usually airs it for everyone to hear in most cases, especially if its a religious minister
wiley drake is no different than a muslim terrorist, or a kkk member, or a neo nazi
call your rep's and senators, demand that they adopt a law similar to UK's "incitement to violence" law...
Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 15, 2009 11:20 AM
Abdul:
Hmmm... from wikipedia:
So it doesn't appear that Tiller needed to "repent[] at the last moment." Wile E. would no doubt say Tiller was No True Christian™, but I'm not sure Tiller would've agreed that he "did not accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior."
Posted by: Aagrajag | July 15, 2009 11:24 AM
@14
Actual Satanists are slightly more literate and less sexually repressed?
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 15, 2009 11:25 AM
If you are planning to watch it, it is probably better to do before you eat. That way you will just be put of your breakfast rather than running the risk of meeting it again on the way back up.
Posted by: Yiab
|
July 15, 2009 11:27 AM
#18:
Commonly restated as "you can't yell fire in a crowded theater unless there actually is a fire", I would argue that U.S. law actually* supports the idea that "you can't yell fire in a crowded theater unless you actually believe there is one or cannot control yourself".
This version makes it clear that the deluded, hallucinating, and those with a particular form of tourette's are exempt from this restriction.
*I'm not a lawyer either.
Posted by: Denis Loubet | July 15, 2009 11:28 AM
This certainly sounds like conspiracy to commit murder, but I'm not a lawyer.
And the interesting part is that it doesn't matter if the god exists or not. People have been convicted of conspiracy to commit murder when they tried to enlist an assassin who turned out to be a police officer. That means it doesn't matter if the assassin exists or not, the attempt is apparently all that matters.
Posted by: False Prophet
|
July 15, 2009 11:28 AM
#14 @raven, I would tend to agree. This sort of thinking is what comes of dispensing of 2000 years of Christian theology (which, mistaken it may be, at least attempts to rationally engage belief and scripture), in favour of a tradition of snake oil peddling, used car salemen, big tent carnie-folk preachifying.
Although, I think the threat of "dark witches" and "Satanists" is overstated: most witches, Wiccans, neo-pagans and Satanists in my experience are law-abiding, tolerant and generally ethical (a handful of idiots in the early 90s burning down Norwegian churches notwithstanding).
Posted by: Dusty | July 15, 2009 11:28 AM
Eamon Knight, To be fair, If you said you were going to hire a unicorn to assassinate the president then probably nothing would happen to you either. Of course in this case you might be carted off to a mental institution
Posted by: Savior Breath | July 15, 2009 11:36 AM
The reason it's legal for Wiley to say this, aside from his nauseating exploitation of religious freedom, is that the public in general knows that his prayers are ineffective. We can point out his grandstanding and perhaps prosecute him for incitement, but he'll be laughed at and ignored because our pious public knows prayer efficacy is baseless.
If collective society really thinks there is power in prayer, we should incarcerate those who admit to using at a weapon. But we know better.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 15, 2009 11:36 AM
Dusty:
Even if you said it to a crowd of people who, to your certain knowledge, sincerely believed themselves to be agents of the will of unicorns?
Reaching back a bit...
BAllanJ:
I wasn't suggesting preachers aren't con artists; only that "any random con artist" usually isn't generally involved in a publicly announced conspiracy (no matter that the intended coconspirator is nonexistent) to assassinate the president. That kind of shit attracts attention that risks screwing up the con.
Posted by: Clemens | July 15, 2009 11:38 AM
What I fail to understand is how so much hatred is directed towards the most awesome president you guys have elected in a while. He is competent, dynamic and charming, intelligent and eloquent.
If someone would have said the same stuff about Bush, the rednecks and godbotheres would be all "Well why u don' leave if you don' like them US?".
Posted by: Imprecatory Prayer | July 15, 2009 11:40 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XlqCFi6o-E
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 11:41 AM
That is why I used the term Dark witches. Most witches these days claim to be white witches and the Wiccans are some sort of new age neo pagans. Whatever one thinks of their theology, both seem to be orders of magnitude more benign than fundie Death Cult xians.
The only real satanists I know of all seem to be fundie cult xians. They seem to own the evilness niche. You have to be a xian to be a satanist. To an atheist or a hindu, satan is just another invisible pink unicorn.
Posted by: tsg | July 15, 2009 11:42 AM
I got a dollar on "No True Christian" in 20 comments, and another one on "isolated extremist" in 10.
For the triple-play, I'll also take "whackjobs on both sides" for $2.
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 11:43 AM
That is why I used the term Dark witches. Most witches these days claim to be white witches and the Wiccans are some sort of new age neo pagans. Whatever one thinks of their theology, both seem to be orders of magnitude more benign than fundie Death Cult xians.
The only real satanists I know of all seem to be fundie cult xians. They seem to own the evilness niche. You have to be a xian to be a satanist. To an atheist or a hindu, satan is just another invisible pink unicorn.
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 11:43 AM
That is why I used the term Dark witches. Most witches these days claim to be white witches and the Wiccans are some sort of new age neo pagans. Whatever one thinks of their theology, both seem to be orders of magnitude more benign than fundie Death Cult xians.
The only real satanists I know of all seem to be fundie cult xians. They seem to own the evilness niche. You have to be a xian to be a satanist. To an atheist or a hindu, satan is just another invisible pink unicorn.
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 11:43 AM
That is why I used the term Dark witches. Most witches these days claim to be white witches and the Wiccans are some sort of new age neo pagans. Whatever one thinks of their theology, both seem to be orders of magnitude more benign than fundie Death Cult xians.
The only real satanists I know of all seem to be fundie cult xians. They seem to own the evilness niche. You have to be a xian to be a satanist. To an atheist or a hindu, satan is just another invisible pink unicorn.
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 11:43 AM
That is why I used the term Dark witches. Most witches these days claim to be white witches and the Wiccans are some sort of new age neo pagans. Whatever one thinks of their theology, both seem to be orders of magnitude more benign than fundie Death Cult xians.
The only real satanists I know of all seem to be fundie cult xians. They seem to own the evilness niche. You have to be a xian to be a satanist. To an atheist or a hindu, satan is just another invisible pink unicorn.
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 11:43 AM
That is why I used the term Dark witches. Most witches these days claim to be white witches and the Wiccans are some sort of new age neo pagans. Whatever one thinks of their theology, both seem to be orders of magnitude more benign than fundie Death Cult xians.
The only real satanists I know of all seem to be fundie cult xians. They seem to own the evilness niche. You have to be a xian to be a satanist. To an atheist or a hindu, satan is just another invisible pink unicorn.
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 11:43 AM
That is why I used the term Dark witches. Most witches these days claim to be white witches and the Wiccans are some sort of new age neo pagans. Whatever one thinks of their theology, both seem to be orders of magnitude more benign than fundie Death Cult xians.
The only real satanists I know of all seem to be fundie cult xians. They seem to own the evilness niche. You have to be a xian to be a satanist. To an atheist or a hindu, satan is just another invisible pink unicorn.
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 11:43 AM
That is why I used the term Dark witches. Most witches these days claim to be white witches and the Wiccans are some sort of new age neo pagans. Whatever one thinks of their theology, both seem to be orders of magnitude more benign than fundie Death Cult xians.
The only real satanists I know of all seem to be fundie cult xians. They seem to own the evilness niche. You have to be a xian to be a satanist. To an atheist or a hindu, satan is just another invisible pink unicorn.
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 11:43 AM
That is why I used the term Dark witches. Most witches these days claim to be white witches and the Wiccans are some sort of new age neo pagans. Whatever one thinks of their theology, both seem to be orders of magnitude more benign than fundie Death Cult xians.
The only real satanists I know of all seem to be fundie cult xians. They seem to own the evilness niche. You have to be a xian to be a satanist. To an atheist or a hindu, satan is just another invisible pink unicorn.
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 11:43 AM
That is why I used the term Dark witches. Most witches these days claim to be white witches and the Wiccans are some sort of new age neo pagans. Whatever one thinks of their theology, both seem to be orders of magnitude more benign than fundie Death Cult xians.
The only real satanists I know of all seem to be fundie cult xians. They seem to own the evilness niche. You have to be a xian to be a satanist. To an atheist or a hindu, satan is just another invisible pink unicorn.
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 11:43 AM
That is why I used the term Dark witches. Most witches these days claim to be white witches and the Wiccans are some sort of new age neo pagans. Whatever one thinks of their theology, both seem to be orders of magnitude more benign than fundie Death Cult xians.
The only real satanists I know of all seem to be fundie cult xians. They seem to own the evilness niche. You have to be a xian to be a satanist. To an atheist or a hindu, satan is just another invisible pink unicorn.
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 11:47 AM
I didn't summit my comment 6 times.
Scienceblogs did it. Really. Some sort of bug in the software.
Posted by: hje | July 15, 2009 11:54 AM
Another homegrown terrorist-enabler, worming his poison into the brains of incipient Timothy McVeigh wannabes. There are already enough twitchy Nobama/Birther/Freepers out there fondling their beloved guns and dreaming of revolution--they don't need any more motivation from evil turds like Drake.
Posted by: daveau
|
July 15, 2009 11:54 AM
Raven is clearly using witchcraft...
Posted by: David Wiener
|
July 15, 2009 11:58 AM
Raven - I think you've made your point. :-p
Posted by: Cliff Hendroval | July 15, 2009 12:01 PM
Thank you for clarifying yourself, raven.
Posted by: Betz | July 15, 2009 12:02 PM
Ah, must be the anticipated Wednesday SciBlogs upgrade. Automated comment duplication for your convenience!
Posted by: Ted Dahlberg
|
July 15, 2009 12:04 PM
Wiley prayed for it of course.
Posted by: kody_frog | July 15, 2009 12:05 PM
Good post PZ, but you are a little behind the times...this is OOOOOOLLLLLLLLLDDDDDD news.
Posted by: jak hdfk | July 15, 2009 12:12 PM
i like the way those in the west (i.e. us) cling to the illusion that if we could only remove the corrupt elements from our society everything would be peachy.
dialectics anyone?
Posted by: Jephalopod | July 15, 2009 12:13 PM
Treason? No, not when conservatives do it.
Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | July 15, 2009 12:16 PM
Here is what I do not understand, the big sky daddy can do what he wants. He is beyond the limited powers of humans. He can do what he desires. If he wants someone dead, he has a variety of means to do so. But the big sky daddy needs prayers in order to convince him to do what he already wants to have done?
What is the point of the prayer for death? To convince the big sky daddy to act? Perhaps the more simple explanation is this; Wiley really wants Obama to be murdered. But he is too cowardly to act on his desire. But by being open by his desire for Obama to be murdered, if it does happen, Wiley could point at his prayer and claim that his big sky daddy has carried out Wiley's wish.
But what the hell, Steve Albini does a better prayer to god.
Posted by: microtoma | July 15, 2009 12:18 PM
Well quite useless prayer: everyone is going to die sooner or later
Posted by: Sastra
|
July 15, 2009 12:22 PM
Ah, raven was obviously the victim of witchcraft!!!
matt #32 wrote:
No. Drake was openly praying that God Himself would kill Obama -- that means illness or accident. "Act of God." Not of man. If, however, Drake had been saying instead that his prayers were that God would "inspire" one of his loyal followers to assassinate Obama in His name, then I think we're getting close to the legal definition of inciting violence even in the U.S. Otherwise, there shouldn't be laws against this sort of thing.
I thought Drake had an odd reaction to the interviewer's question:
"Is your view of Christianity and scripture the only right one?"
Normally, I'd expect someone like Drake to hand back an evasive response where he says something to the effect of it not being his view, but God's view, and there's only one God blah blah blah. Instead, he actually said "NO! No! Everyone forms their own opinions..." as if he were admitting that his views are only his opinion. And he's not claiming it's the only right opinion.
I'm not sure what to make of this, since it clearly contradicts the rest of what he's saying. I wonder if the cultural taboo against stating "I'm right and those who disagree are wrong" is so strong that even fundamentalists feel as if they have to give a nod to "tolerance." Strange.
Posted by: Shawn Smith | July 15, 2009 12:26 PM
@Clemens #42:
<Mortimer-Duke-Voice>Of course there's something wrong with him. He's a NEEEEGRO! Probably been stealing since he could crawl.</Mortimer-Duke-Voice>
Posted by: savagemickey | July 15, 2009 12:26 PM
Would it make any difference to the Secret Service if he prayed for Obama's death on the national day of prayer when members of our government believe that prayers actually work?
Posted by: BMcP | July 15, 2009 12:27 PM
Well I am not sure if he is a crook or not, you can't say he is a liar, at least in that case. He was brutally honest and sincere in his belief that his god should strike the president dead. Just hope he doesn't feel the need to become or hire "human agents" to carry out what he may interpret as his god's approval of his "request".
Posted by: SimonG | July 15, 2009 12:28 PM
I know that as an atheist I have no true understanding of morality, but I do feel it's wrong to wish for or glory in the death of anyone.
Posted by: Nangleator | July 15, 2009 12:31 PM
So God is an inept hitman? Maybe he's better at smaller jobs. I didn't have time to clean my toilet this morning, so maybe I can pray him to scrub it. If he can handle that, I'll let him change the litter box and trim some of the long grass in the back yard.
Posted by: Geds | July 15, 2009 12:37 PM
Bill Dauphin, OM: So it doesn't appear that Tiller needed to "repent[] at the last moment." Wile E. would no doubt say Tiller was No True Christian™, but I'm not sure Tiller would've agreed that he "did not accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior."
This is exactly it. Tiller was one of those Lutherans (ECLA if I recall) and those Lutherans probably aren't Real, True Chritistians. I recall reading some comment from some dipshit who was pro-Tiller's death who said (paraphrased), "I told him time and again about the love of Jesus and he just didn't get it."
Chances are that Dr. George Tiller got the whole Jesus thing. What he didn't get was why the moron would-be evangelist seemed to think he didn't...
tsg: I got a dollar on "No True Christian" in 20 comments, and another one on "isolated extremist" in 10.
I got my latest email from someone I used to go to church with explaining that he totally gets why I left the church because he totally wouldn't be able to handle being around people who just don't get the true message, either.*
I can just send that to you. You'll get the effect without having to keep clicking on refresh with your fingers crossed...
*If that seems convoluted, it is. It's an actual email from a person who I actually used to go to church with and I used to work with in ministry who claims that I just wasn't around the right kinds of Christians. Sadly, I've gotten those emails from several other people.
Posted by: uncle frogy | July 15, 2009 12:37 PM
I would bet that if we are now made aware of this "Guy" the FBI and or Secret Service are already watching him.
How effectively is another thing.
Posted by: itzac | July 15, 2009 12:44 PM
As I understand it, in order to be convicted of conspiracy to commit, you need to have taken some positive action towards achieving your goal. Since prayer is entirely ineffective, you can't say that of this guy. As to inciting violence, I think he'd argue he's encouraging congregants to pray for Obama's death, not to enact it. So he probably couldn't be convicted on either count.
Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | July 15, 2009 12:45 PM
Off topic but has anyone one else seen the Ben Stein ad popping up here.
I have FireFox. How do I turn on the ad block?
Posted by: not a gator | July 15, 2009 12:53 PM
not that I'm implying that a denomination born to defend slavery as biblically okay is abunch of drooling bigots who kick people out for not hating gays and reward them for wanting the first black president to die. No idea where someone would get that impression.
Just go to one of the services. Just start with the way they are dressed (btw, we are talking full hair+makeup jobs here with tailored dresses, not backwoods fundies' "modest" long-haired pregnant-and-barefoot style) and the way those church ladies glare at anyone (including some of the sons and husbands) whose attire is not up to their standards. Oh, the venality!
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 15, 2009 12:54 PM
There is not, to my knowledge, an ad-blocker built into Firefox, although there is a pop-up blocker.
You can download third party ad-blockers. Just goto Tools, Addons, click on get add-ons, and then on "Browse all add-ons". Under Privacy and Security you will find Adblock Plus, which is one I can recommend.
Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | July 15, 2009 12:56 PM
Thank you, Matt. I am now done hijacking.
Posted by: Damon B. | July 15, 2009 12:56 PM
@ #76: Since prayer is entirely ineffective, you can't say that of this guy.
The point is, though, that they think that it is effective.
What is the difference between, "If you press this button, something will kill him," and "If you say these magic words, God will kill him" if you totally believe that both will actually make it happen?
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 15, 2009 12:59 PM
You can access the Adblock Plus page directly here:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1865
Posted by: jimmiraybob | July 15, 2009 1:00 PM
#7 - To be fair, I don't think he's necessarily wrong--I think the Bible does support the notion of hit prayers.
Good one. To put a Limbaughesque spin on it - a prayer drive by.
Posted by: not a gator | July 15, 2009 1:06 PM
This is pure witch craft. Begging a supernatural entity to do something.
Absolutely. Calling Wicca "black magic" is one of their typical acts of projection because praying ill on someone--MALEDICTION--is black magic by definition.
It's no wonder disturbed fundie teens are obsessed with "Satanism", not the atheist kind but this sort of ritual inverse of own fundamentalist culture; while more intelligent fundie teens often jump over to Wicca because its talk about karma (the law of three) and its commandment against harming others seems like a welcome solace from the concentrated hate and vitriol spewed by their native churches 24/7.
I still think Wicca is stupid, but it's easy to see why teens are attracted to it. Why not, if you're the sensitive and caring sort, dabble in a little white magic for a change? Beats calling down evil on Jews, Catholics, gays, rock music, and the President.
Posted by: tsg | July 15, 2009 1:07 PM
I say the FBI/Secret Service should arrest the guy and charge him with attempted murder. Make him, under oath, say he didn't really believe it would work.
Posted by: TiG | July 15, 2009 1:08 PM
Cool. =)
Posted by: jimmiraybob | July 15, 2009 1:16 PM
#85 - "I say the FBI/Secret Service should arrest the guy and charge him with attempted murder. Make him, under oath, say he didn't really believe it would work."
Wouldn't happen. This would be a perfect pathway to martyrdom; another Federal government tramples prayer and persecutes the faithful story.
An opportunity to enhance prestige and profit not to be missed.
Posted by: inkadu | July 15, 2009 1:19 PM
There is no point to put a Secret Service detail on this guy. It might make you all feel better, but it doesn't do anything to blunt this guys main threat: inciting the wackaloons to take a potshot at the Obamanation of Desolation.
Posted by: Ritchie Annand | July 15, 2009 1:27 PM
B...B...But if the government denies the power of imprecatory prayer, they are endorsing a particular kind of religion!
That required five exclamation points, but I do not have underpants on my head.
Posted by: E.V. | July 15, 2009 1:29 PM
I'm so glad you're up on your current events and can point out your superiority to the rest of the laggards who might have missed this story. Put a gold star on your forehead, you earned it!Posted by: noodles | July 15, 2009 1:35 PM
#36, The yelling fire reference has nothing to do with actually yelling fire in a crowded theater. It has to do with distributing anti-war leaflets that encourage resisting the draft during wartime. Don't be so literal.
#14, They are Christians not Satanists. Because you don't personally feel they are behaving according to your interpretation of make-believe doesn't mean their version of make-believe isn't valid. They self-identify as Christian, period. There is a completely different make-believe call Satanism and they have completely different set of whimsy.
Posted by: Ryan Biggs | July 15, 2009 1:37 PM
> I've maintained for a while that most,
> if not all, fundy preachers are actually
> atheists who have found a good con.
For many many years, my uncle's family has belonged to a very nutty end-of-days kind of psuedo-born-again church. I went to a church service with them once, curious to see the slick huckster who started it all. No such luck - I got to see the new guy. The first preacher resigned, so the congregation went out and found another total wingnut to run the show. Even if the founder WAS a con man, the church he created is self perpetuating. The believers replaced him with another believer.
Posted by: Alyson Miers | July 15, 2009 1:39 PM
If someone in the near future DOES shoot at Obama, the authorities should definitely ask if the shooter attends Drake's church. And if the shooter does transpire to be one of Drake's congregants, then Drake should be criminally culpable. It'll be funny, too, he'll be all like, "But I didn't actually MEAN it!"
Posted by: hje | July 15, 2009 1:41 PM
I guess Obama needs defense against the dork arts.
Re: #91. I agree--Deluded yes, but Satanists are usually classier than Christianistas like Drake et al.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 15, 2009 1:45 PM
I need this on a t-shirt... and I need it fast, so I can wear it when I go see the new Harry Potter movie!
Posted by: Gorogh | July 15, 2009 1:53 PM
Just a quick note, imho this is not whatsoever about that guy wishing harm to another guy. As for me, he might as well day dream about assassination etc., as long as he does not take any concrete steps of putting it into action - this should be covered by free thought. The line is crossed if a public figure expresses these opinions, or someone in contact with people who are likely unstable enough not to realize this is not to be taken seriously, who might feel compelled to carry out "god's will".
So there cannot be a categorical answer on whether or not law enforcement should act on it, it depends largely on the circumstances. Chances are it could qualify as instigation for murder (or whatever the appropriate legal term), but in this case, I don't know. I did not hear any implication that god's will had to be enforced by anyone, only moronic drivel.
Posted by: Geds | July 15, 2009 1:53 PM
I went to a church service with them once, curious to see the slick huckster who started it all.
My experience is that the pastors are generally completely bought in to the program. They're actually likely to have more cognitive dissonance than everyone else and be more afraid of people who think for themselves.
It's actually a reverse con. Kind of. Unless you're talking about a place where the only requirement is, basically, "Anyone who shows up and wants to preach can," the pastor has generally put a lot of work in to becoming one. We're talking Bible College followed by Seminary. So this is a huge investment of time and money, since most Bible Colleges are pretty expensive and Seminary usually costs at least as much as a private school graduate program and can actually run longer (depending on the track).
Meanwhile, most pastors I've known (and there were quite a few, what with my plans in a previous life to become a pastor and all...) do it because they're "called." So not only do they have the standard pressure that any believer has to toe the line, they are also in danger of having to find a new career path if they give it up. And since most pastors have a relentlessly specific education that means they might have to go back to school and start over again.
So, in short, they're generally not con men. They're just as genuine and honest in their beliefs as anyone else. They're also far more heavily invested in making sure people keep sharing those beliefs. That's where the con man-esque behavior can come in...
Posted by: WTFWJD | July 15, 2009 1:53 PM
Imprecation: from Latin, imprecari, "invoke evil".
As Bugs Bunny would say, Sheesh, what a maroon.
Posted by: raven | July 15, 2009 2:06 PM
Nonsense. I don't care if they call themselves Followers of Bob the Rain God. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, ....It is a duck!!!
A low class, bedraggled, ignorant, mutant duck maybe, but still a malevolent duck.
Posted by: Abdul Alhazred
|
July 15, 2009 2:09 PM
It's like any other prayer. If the wish comes true, God gets the glory.
It doesn't even have to be death.If Obama gets a bad headache and the news reports it, God gets the glory.
The Secret Service takes threats to the president very seriously, regardless of partisanship or media hype. After all, they are paid to take the bullet for him if necessary.
Posted by: Troy
|
July 15, 2009 2:12 PM
This is an extremely valid observation, I'll definitely use it.
Posted by: noodles | July 15, 2009 2:29 PM
#99: You're not making sense. It clearly doesn't quack like a duck. The followers of the make-believe whimsy called Satanism perform magic incantations and venerate Randian Objectivism, Nietzsche, and Crowley. The person featured in this video is clearly a Christian, self-identifies as a Christian, and adheres to the supernatural dogmas of the make-believe whimsy called Christianity. To refer to them as Satanists is nonsense on par with "Hitler was a a gay atheist." You are just using "satanist" as random a pejorative. Consider this, Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk but lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
Posted by: Abdul Alhazred | July 15, 2009 2:38 PM
As far as I can tell, self-so-called Satanists are of two types:
1) Rich weirdos who are very particular about the decor at their orgies.
2) Teenagers who want to freak out their parents.
Posted by: n | July 15, 2009 2:39 PM
"praying the word of God"? "I'm just repeating what God is saying"? What the fuck is that supposed mean?!?
So, the omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, perfect intelligence that takes an active part in EVERYTHING want's, I dunno, a cheeseburger (for example), but the fulfillment of that desire can't happen until some earthly clown-with-a-collar puts his hands together and bows his head for it?
And to think we're only 6 months in. Wait 'till the mid terms next year to see the wing nuts become truly unhinged.
Posted by: Wallace turner | July 15, 2009 3:03 PM
The random con man earns less from contributions.
Posted by: daveau
|
July 15, 2009 3:04 PM
n@104
Clearly, god told him to pray to god. And, apparently, it's all god's idea. But god won't take any action on his own. Unless he prays. Then something may or may not happen. But, no matter what, it's totally god's fault if something does happen.
See there? Totally clarified.
Posted by: Other Memory | July 15, 2009 3:16 PM
Is it just me or does he keep saying "Impregnatory prayer" ???
And if so, WTF does that mean?!? I may have an idea, just thought I'd confirm that idea :P
Posted by: SEF | July 15, 2009 3:40 PM
Alternatively, see what a lie detector* has to report on the issue of whether he believes some of his all too human audience would carry out his (allegedly "god's") wishes. That's what would make it a realistic "incitement to violence" crime.
* Yes, I know they're not completely reliable - especially on the habitually (or perhaps pathologically) dishonest.
Posted by: arabian stallion | July 15, 2009 3:43 PM
IS the prayer directed at the POTUS or at Obama? i.e. why is he praying for him to die? who not pray for him to be impeached or gets removed from power somehow?
Wouldn't that be less evil?
Posted by: arabian stallion | July 15, 2009 3:46 PM
Oh, I meant to say at the POTUS or Obama as a person....
Sorry for that!
Posted by: n | July 15, 2009 3:59 PM
daveau@106
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMMkK5ez-qI&feature=related
Now it all makes sense.
Posted by: Hypatia's Daughter | July 15, 2009 4:21 PM
hje & Bill, Ohh - that is so a T-shirt:
#20 Matt,Yep, theology "lacks any method of deciding which views on god are correct". The Bible says, "by their fruits shall ye know them," but there are just too many fruits in the salad these days.
Another thing: What is with prophets? Why does God always communicate the most important messages - ones that alter the fate of the entire world AND will cause each person to suffer for an eternity - to ONE LONE PERSON. Who is usually a whack job nobody?
Posted by: daveau
|
July 15, 2009 4:23 PM
n@111
No audio until I get home, about 2 1/2 hours from now. But no doubt the video is most enlightening and helpful. Thanks!
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
|
July 15, 2009 4:48 PM
If god didn't want Obama to be president, then he would have poofed McClain into the presidensity.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
|
July 15, 2009 4:51 PM
In my post #114, I was referring to Shirley McClain, obviously.
Posted by: Kagehi | July 15, 2009 5:18 PM
So... Any reason why no one has mentioned in this thread that basically:
"Imprecatory prayer" = Taking the lords name in vain by attempting to cajole ones god into cursing/killing someone, or providing oneself a personal gain, and possibly worse, by doing so while professing belief in the true faith, but failing to live by it.
Mind, the later, if taken in context, pretty much excludes the "entirety" of Christians that believe salvation comes to them by "simply" believing enough, but not trying to make the world better. The former though... WTFWJD got it dead right.. lol
Posted by: daveau
|
July 15, 2009 6:57 PM
n-
OK. Now I see.
Posted by: Aquaria | July 15, 2009 7:00 PM
Rather than sending the Secret Service to his door, a more fitting punishment would be to send the IRS.
Posted by: antfaber | July 15, 2009 8:09 PM
"that means a lot of pork eaters are in trouble... "
That's why God invented cholesterol.
Posted by: «bønez_brigade»
|
July 15, 2009 10:00 PM
Drake's voice reminds me of a certain Pastor Brother from a certain online Baptist Church.
Posted by: bluescat48
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July 15, 2009 10:20 PM
Seig heil. He seems to be a modern Nazi.
Posted by: Monado | July 15, 2009 10:21 PM
Terrorist -- hate criminal -- evil con man. There's a Trinity for you.
Posted by: bluescat48
|
July 15, 2009 10:23 PM
Seig heil. He seems to be a modern Nazi.
Posted by: Earthling | July 16, 2009 12:10 AM
It is totally misleading to think that this man is just screwed up or that prayer is ineffective because god does not exist, etc.
This absolutely has nothing to do with "prayer" (imprecatory or otherwise). What this this man is doing is blowing a dogwhistle for any nutter to respond to in order to assassinate Obama. What he is really saying is: "Who out there wants to do the will of god?" That is the real purpose behind this sick man's "prayer."
He's hoping for someone (more than one actually) nutjob to take it upon himself to be the "chosen one" to assassinate Obama.
These evil bastards know exactly what they are doing. They want another Jim Adkisson to come along, except with bigger game.
What this preacher is doing is very calculated.
Posted by: Earthling | July 16, 2009 12:13 AM
It is totally misleading to think that this man is just screwed up or that prayer is ineffective because god does not exist, etc.
This absolutely has nothing to do with "prayer" (imprecatory or otherwise). What this this man is doing is blowing a dogwhistle for any nutter to respond to in order to assassinate Obama. What he is really saying is: "Who out there wants to do the will of god?" That is the real purpose behind this sick man's "prayer."
He's hoping for someone (more than one actually) nutjob to take it upon himself to be the "chosen one" to assassinate Obama.
These evil bastards know exactly what they are doing. They want another Jim Adkisson to come along, except with bigger game.
What this preacher is doing is very calculated.
Posted by: Mark | July 16, 2009 8:05 AM
This man joins the list of TV pundits that have been calling for the death of Obama since he was elected. BHO's election has popped the bigots right out of the woodwork, exposing them for the entire world to see.
As usual, it takes eternal vigilance to prevent zealots from launching a conflagration across the planet. Those zealots, of course, are so mentally ill that they need to be on meds or watched carefully by CIA, NSA or your local busybody in the 'hood.
Posted by: Elwood Herring | July 16, 2009 10:04 AM
Cue Python: