…and this is a 
Heresy is so easy to do, you don't even have to try. My wife is off helping kids at Camp Quest, which is, apparently, a horrible, awful, evil act. Just ask the Jebus-lovers of Rapture Ready, who were recently all agog at the opening of a godless summer camp in England. Here are a few of their reactions, stripped of the animated smiley faces and garish signatures they like over there.
Poor kids! What will they sing about?
Give peace a chance?!?
They could sing about sex and drugs and rock and roll, I suppose…but songs about peace sound like they'd be very nice. Why would a Christian find peace songs to be an unfortunate subject?
what kind of boring atheist themed arts and crafts will they do there?
sounds lame.
Heh. When I was a young fellow, I went to Vacation Bible School, so I know all about those exciting Christian-themed arts and crafts: making crosses out of popsicle sticks, making wallets with crosses embossed in them, making scenes out of pieces of felt, like Christ on the cross. Don't tell me about lame, I have lived it.
Last I heard from Mary, the kids had been doing canoeing, swimming, archery, hiking, some Indian dance and movement exercise, the traditional smores, basket and candle making, and something to do with parachutes, while also bringing in people to work with the kids in skeptical exercises. They sounded very busy.
very sad indeed.....Jesus is exactly what these precious children need, along with their parents...How tragic.
I like that. Kids get together, have fun, learn things, and what they really need is…Jesus. Jesus, however, never shows up at summer camp.
Yeah, but this camp is not open to all faiths... its excludes those with FAITH. It is a demonic tool to lose souls of those that might hear the true Gospel but will be filled with poison in advance. IMO Every souls that is "won" to the athiest is another soul that will burn in hell for eternity! I would think that might be significant.
I don't think that Camp Quest actively excludes people of faith — you're welcome to send your kids there. It's just that one of the many things they do there is teach critical thinking and expose kids to a plurality of beliefs. When I visited a while back, for instance, they had a pagan priestess come in and talk about her beliefs, and they had a regular program of bringing in advocates of weird religions, like Christianity, to come in and make a case for their superstitions.
But yes, if you believe a magic man in the sky sits petulantly on a great golden throne and wants human beings to spend all their time worshipping him, then he probably is planning to throw all those happy, free-thinking children into a lake of fire, so he can chortle over their eternal torment. If such a god existed, though, I don't think I'd want to worship it.
Here's my favorite comment from Rapture Ready. No embroidering from me is necessary.
Lets face it Atheism is bankrupt so they have to indoctrinate young children.
Comments
Posted by: Bunk | July 29, 2009 8:52 AM
The irony, it burns! That last statement is so over the top, I'd almost call Poe's on it . . . almost.
Posted by: That German Guy | July 29, 2009 8:53 AM
That last quote just made me burst out laughing.
PZ, I have a personal message for you from my boss:
"Dear Dr. Myers: Stop making the LT laugh out loud. It's not the thing to do while we have visiting dignitaries over."
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 29, 2009 8:54 AM
Whoever wrote that needs to get out of the way of the large anvil falling directly above them.
Posted by: Andrew Manderson
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July 29, 2009 8:55 AM
That last quote was pure win.
Posted by: Carlie | July 29, 2009 8:59 AM
Vacation. Bible. School.
Posted by: RobertDW | July 29, 2009 9:00 AM
I call Poe! on the last quote...
Posted by: MadScientist | July 29, 2009 9:02 AM
"Lets face it Atheism is bankrupt so they have to indoctrinate young children."
Wow. I've just been convinced that Jungian projections really do exist.
Posted by: defiantskeptic
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July 29, 2009 9:07 AM
Oh, yes, we are the ones indoctrinating kids.
Mmhmm.
Sure.
Excuse me while I laugh myself to death.
Posted by: Chris | July 29, 2009 9:08 AM
Odd. I went to a catholic parochial school. At their summer camp, we played capture the flag and watched old horror flicks in the evening. In fact, my most distinct memories of the camp were from the horror films. I don't remember the titles, but one featured a hypnotist that caused people to disfigure themselves and the other featured an iron maiden and a cage containing a rat strapped to the face of a person that allowed the rat to gnaw on the victims face. I wonder if Dick Cheney went to a camp like that?
Posted by: Dianne | July 29, 2009 9:09 AM
It might not be a Poe. Remember that Christians are the ones who talk about how gays are trying to "recruit" you or your children. Apparently without irony.
Posted by: Esbee
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July 29, 2009 9:11 AM
I thought I would enjoy reading their comments over there and saw a spelling mistake in the first avatar of the first post I read.
I then read threads about the global warming conspiracy, Obama's birth certificate, the incoming mass invasion of Isreal and then how some guy claims to have been contacted by God through a Facebook app. I am thoroughly entertained.
Posted by: Andyman | July 29, 2009 9:12 AM
Lol at the last quote. We are the new gays anyway so it makes sense hehe.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 29, 2009 9:13 AM
The last comment doesn't go far enough. Somebody really needs to do something about those bankrupt mathematicians and physicists. How DARE they indoctrinate young children with their "multiplication" and "gravity" THEORIES before the children are able to make up their own minds about things. All education should be postponed until people are 27 and have thorougly reviewed the peer-reviewed literature on the appropriate subjects so that they can be relied upon to decide for themselves what's right or wrong.
Posted by: Esbee
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July 29, 2009 9:13 AM
Just my luck...Israel
Posted by: genecutter | July 29, 2009 9:13 AM
Atheism must not be completely bankrupt, since there is enough money to run a summer camp!
Posted by: veganerd | July 29, 2009 9:14 AM
hey i have an 11 year old daughter who wants to go to camp. sounds like a great place to send her next summer!
Posted by: Wes | July 29, 2009 9:15 AM
I had to suffer through VBS as a kid, too. I feel your pain.
Posted by: charley
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July 29, 2009 9:16 AM
Not even surprising, let alone Poe. In religious communities where their beliefs are the norm Camp Quest looks like brainwashing.
Posted by: Pluto Animus | July 29, 2009 9:17 AM
New poll to crash!
From Indianapolis: Should city busses be allowed to post the message "You can be good without God"?
Vote yes!
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/20210894/detail.html
Posted by: Hank Fox | July 29, 2009 9:18 AM
Popsicle stick crosses! It's all coming back to me!
AieeeeeEEEEEE!!
We also did a popsicle stick ladder, to illustrate some Bible story I've now forgotten. Something to do with Joshua? Well, I probably needed the brain-space for remembering calculus, or possibly ST:TOS plots, so it's a good thing.
(Holy Shit, I just realized: Jesus was Ensign Red Shirt.)
Posted by: nigelTheBold
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July 29, 2009 9:19 AM
I can only imagine how you indoctrinate a kid into atheism: "Listen, Suzy, I want you to sit in the corner and not think about married bachelor purple elephants. While you're at it, don't think about god, either."
While around the campfire: "Okay, kids! Now let's The Song That Doesn't Have god In It!"
In art class: "Who can paint the best picture that lacks god?"
In the woods: "While we're out here, let's look for Bigfoot! And god."
And when gathered together: "Kids, you know how sometimes we'll show you pictures of black lungs or people smoking through a hole in their throat to scare you off cigarettes? Today we're doing something similar. To help keep you off theism, we're going to show you the scariest thing ever: let me introduce you to a representative from Rapture Ready."
Posted by: Sigmund | July 29, 2009 9:19 AM
When I was young I was sent to an Opus Dei summer camp in Ireland. One thing I can remember was the camp leader had a strange obsession with Charles Bronson movies. He showed us about four or five of them (probably not the best thing to do for a group of 8 to 11 year old kids).
Apart from an incredibly boring rosary session (they should bring 'saying the rosary' back to modern day catholicism, its probably about the best thing you can do to teach children the ridiculousness of religious practice) thats about all I remember about the camp. Well OK, there was that albino monk who kept whipping himself...
Posted by: Deafboy | July 29, 2009 9:20 AM
I love how showing your kids MULTIPLE sets of beliefs is consdered indoctrication. The stoopid is strong with this group.
Allthough to be fair PZ you did pick a fringe group of crazies :)
Posted by: toth | July 29, 2009 9:20 AM
Oh, Rapture Retards. They are good for so many hours of fun.
Posted by: Gorogh | July 29, 2009 9:22 AM
Aieeeeeeh... Manga-Jesus... I should have known not to follow the link.
Off to wash my eyes.
On second thought, all this is making me sad. A subculture whose group psychology and behavior might not even be so different from our subculture's, yet divided from us by a chasm of ignorance only few ever cross. And both sides point and shout. Both think they are right.
Of course, only our side is. What did you think.
p.s.: No this is no relativistic or accomodationist statement, I honestly believe religion is bullshit no matter what. If only we could argue about worthwhile topics (i.e., not sky faeries and such), a conflict weren't so bad after all.
Posted by: James Sweet | July 29, 2009 9:22 AM
Well, there is firm Biblical backing for this position. After all, Psalms 137:9 suggests that a good way to beat depression is to smash the heads of babies with large rocks.
Without violence, how will these poor freethinking kids ever be happy? It really makes me sad to think that these children will grow up without ever having had the opportunity to squash infant craniums. Surely they will all be miserable wretches.
Posted by: xebecs | July 29, 2009 9:23 AM
Let's see.
On the one hand, crosses on everything that is crossable.
On the other hand, scarlet A's, FSMs, tentacle porn, and lovingly embroidered samplers with featuring verses by Cuttlefish.
Gosh, I feel so sorry for those atheist kids.
Posted by: Jason | July 29, 2009 9:23 AM
Godless summer camps in England are hardly a new thing. I went to quite a few different camp type things when I was younger (ten or fifteen years ago). At none of them was religion mentioned, it was just taken for granted that no one was interested. And this was a national chain of hundreds of different camps. As a secular alternative to religious camps it seems somewhat redundant, and I can't help feel that bringing religion (even just specifying the lack of it) into an area that is so strongly secular to start with is potentially a bad idea.
Posted by: saed | July 29, 2009 9:24 AM
Lets face it Atheism is bankrupt so they...
Dont seem funny to me.
But then, thats how every one I know talks. They dont notice or care about the actual truth of the words they use.
Its True! They really dont care if its factually true. "Its feelings that are important."
Posted by: aratina cage
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July 29, 2009 9:24 AM
HankFox: "Holy Shit, I just realized: Jesus was Ensign Red Shirt."
Perhaps so in ST:TOS, but in ST:TNG Jesus was Data.
Posted by: JW | July 29, 2009 9:24 AM
Its the first quote that caught me more than the last. I've got a few conservative Christians on my Facebook, and any time Obama goes to talk to some country and says something nice to them, they throw a hissy and call Obama a wimp for not wanting to be a country crushing warmonger.
Posted by: Mike Haubrich, FCD | July 29, 2009 9:25 AM
One thing that should relieve both the Rapture Ready folks (and the kids) is that there won't be any pedophile priests out there. Camp Quest counselors and the volunteers are a great bunch of safe people.
I'll be out there tonight and tomorrow, myself. My son was a camper last year and had more fun than he would have had being told that by his nature as a human being he is debased, shameful and a sinner; that there is nothing that he can do about it on his own and that he "needs Jesus" for anything whatsoever.
I am sure that they serve crackers out there, too. Just not the little round flavorless ones.
Posted by: NewEnglandBob
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July 29, 2009 9:26 AM
Jesus used to show up at fundie summer camps but he drowned one year when he tried to walk on water.
Posted by: James Sweet | July 29, 2009 9:26 AM
@Gorogh:
I couldn't agree more. Relativism, far from being a tactic of those horrible amoral secularists, is the bread-and-butter of religious loonery. "Well, everything is relative, see? So while you look at the evidence and draw logical conclusion from that, I look at the evidence and make up whatever crazy bullshit I want. But that doesn't make me wrong -- we just have different starting points and assumptions, that's all!"
Posted by: Mozglubov | July 29, 2009 9:27 AM
The internet is always so hard on irony meters... looks like another few just blew out.
Posted by: Steve | July 29, 2009 9:28 AM
Man, I'm going to have to stop reading Pharyngula at work if I'm going to be laughing this loud all the time.
Posted by: Miguel | July 29, 2009 9:29 AM
Because peace is BAD!
Posted by: MartyM | July 29, 2009 9:36 AM
I went to Church camp when I was a kid. I was small and easy prey for the bigger kids. But, I didn't expect that with other "Christian" kids. The camp was one of the worst experiences in my life. Was pushed of a bridge, held underwater until I was panicking, jumped on, etc. (not asking for any pity - just making some points). I went once and never went back.
Posted by: Dianne | July 29, 2009 9:36 AM
The internet is always so hard on irony meters... looks like another few just blew out.
I've taken to turning mine off when I use the internet. It's less trouble that way.
Posted by: William | July 29, 2009 9:36 AM
Did the Bible School thing as a child too. It's amazing the tat that can be fabricated from leftover yarn, popsicle sticks, and white glue, all in the name of indoctrination. To all fellow sufferers, greetings and commiserations!
As far as humanist camps go (and I know others have said this but I just have to concur): so now countering indoctrination, or choosing not to experience it, is indoctrination? *headspinning*
I just got back a short while ago from a Cub Scout camp with my son. Imagine my horror when the camp "chaplain" was introduced, complete with acoustic guitar. I'll be blogging about that experience shortly - it'll be good for a laugh, and cheap post-traumatic stress therapy. My letter of complaint to the local council is nearly ready - I had to remove the spittle-flecked invective several times over, tho'.
"Jesus, however, never shows up at summer camp" sounds like a great refrain for a song, or a poem, perhaps. Cuttlefish? =)
Posted by: Dave | July 29, 2009 9:37 AM
It's like funny, but the kind that just pisses me off.
Posted by: Rob H | July 29, 2009 9:41 AM
I don't know if this is the case here, but I know some of the more extreme Christians think that the peace movement is a conspiracy to prevent the Second Coming (since one of the precursors is war).
Posted by: James Ernst | July 29, 2009 9:42 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDbAxhV2ofM&feature=player_embedded
You haven't heard Folsom Prison Blues until you hear it sung by a 5 year old.
"I killed a man just to watch him die"
Think of the children! Won't someone please think of the children?
Posted by: FlameDuck | July 29, 2009 9:43 AM
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" - Matthew 7:3"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mohandas Gandhi
Q.E.D.
Posted by: JLT | July 29, 2009 9:45 AM
As if such a camp had to exclude anyone because of his faith. How many RR-type Christians would send their kids to an atheist/freethinker/skeptics summer camp?
Posted by: Hank Fox | July 29, 2009 9:46 AM
Miguel #37: "[33] No posts supporting issues on pacifism ..."
Damn, pacifism is so bad they had to post TWO rules against it:
"[13] No Liberal Left Wing Political Agendas, Pacifism, Socialism ..."
Why? "Continuous wars will exist on this planet until the Prince of Peace establishes His Kingdom on earth, and only after a great and bloody war that Jesus Himself will wage against His enemies."
Well, that sounds hopeful, huh? Nice Christians who can't allow the subject of peace even to be MENTIONED, much less discussed or aspired to.
Talk about a bunch of evil fucks.
Posted by: Ephemeriis | July 29, 2009 9:47 AM
You know... All this makes me very curious what what they think kids should be doing at a summer camp.
I went to camp most summers when I was a kid... The theme varied from one year to the next... I even wound up at a computer camp one year (yes, I am that much of a geek)... But I never went to anything that was labeled as a "Christian" camp.
Pretty much every camp I ever went to had canoeing and hiking and stuff... Assorted arts and crafts... Campfires... We sang goofy camping songs like "On Top of Old Smokey"... All of which is, according to these folks, wrong.
So, what is a kid supposed to do at camp? Just praise Jesus from dawn 'til dusk? Is that really what they think their kids should be doing? Do they really think that every single thing they do while at camp has to somehow reference their religion?
Even when I went to very heavily-themed camps like golf camp and computer camp we did non-theme activities. They dragged us pale computer geeks out into the sunlight and had us playing capture-the-flag and things like that.
Posted by: nigelTheBold
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July 29, 2009 9:50 AM
#47 Ephemeriis,
The only camp I ever went to was a computer camp. Twice. Back in the early '80s. Don't be ashamed.
Those were the best summers of my early teens.
Posted by: Jambe | July 29, 2009 9:53 AM
C'mon, hit that dopey poll Pluto Animus posted! I'm right by Indy... I have a personal interest in this one!
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/20210894/detail.html
And uhm... Camp Quest sounds bloody great.
Posted by: Alyson Miers | July 29, 2009 9:54 AM
Yeah, but this camp is not open to all faiths... its excludes those with FAITH.
My irony meter is creaming its shorts, here. Everyone knows only people of FAITH are allowed to EXCLUDE people who DISAGREE with them. (When they're not working up a holy lather trying to convert the heathens, of course.) How dare those dirty atheists have their own rules for who's welcome in their space!
Posted by: Aaron | July 29, 2009 9:59 AM
I'd hate to be a stage magician brought in to do a magic show at Camp Quest.
Posted by: JM Shep
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July 29, 2009 9:59 AM
That last quote made me laugh like I want to do whenever my dad's mother-in-law gets going. However, I respect my father enough to not laugh at the ridiculous blather that spews forth from her. It's like a reflex for them to quote the bible or something.
It’s also funny how contradictory they are when they get defensive…
Posted by: Finch | July 29, 2009 10:01 AM
I never went to Bible camp or anything, but I did go to an elementary public school that was fairly Catholic. Because my parents were not religious and didn't attend the local church, I was isolated during catechism. My teacher would put me in an empty classroom and tell me to draw Jesus bleeding on the crucifix.
The thing is, she would only give me orange and yellow crayons but I could get the whole palette if I joined catechism. Well, you know what, Jesus bled orange juice and pissed lemonade until 4th grade. How 'bout that for indoctrination?
Posted by: Sigmund | July 29, 2009 10:05 AM
Can you imagine what the average Rapture Ready type thinks a secular camp is like?
9.00 AM Wake up
9.15 AM Breakfast (Crack cocaine, crystal meth and heroin, all washed down with Godless Absolut Vodka.)
9.30 AM Activity - visit the local church!
9.45 AM Burn down the church.
10.00 Rescue christian babies from the burning church!
10.15 AM Eat them.
10.30 Marry a farmyard animal
etc
Posted by: nigelTheBold
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July 29, 2009 10:07 AM
I bet he was popular at the breakfast buffet at Denny's.
Posted by: wheatdogg
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July 29, 2009 10:08 AM
...while also bringing in people to work with the kids in skeptical exercises.
Do you mean the kids do calisthenics while questioning if the activity will help them stay fit? Or is it more like, "I dunno, I'm not sure I can swim all the way across the lake!"?
Posted by: phantomreader42 | July 29, 2009 10:09 AM
If the random quote setup ever gets reinstated, this should be added to it:
Posted by: AJ Milne | July 29, 2009 10:11 AM
*Spoing*...
(/Shakes head, dumps old one in trash, pulls next out of carton...)
Posted by: Knockgoats | July 29, 2009 10:13 AM
Sigmund@54,
Sounds fun! But don't you (or they) know that cocaine, meth and heroin all kill the appetite? They wouldn't be eating any Christian babies so soon after that breakfast!
Posted by: eddie | July 29, 2009 10:13 AM
Never mind that last quote. I think that Rapture Ready is totally a Poe. Done to a greater degree than shelley, but that's because more of the users there think it's real.
Never went to a summer camp but I was in the cubs for a short time, in two different troops. In the first, I achieved the art proficiency badge, did an overnight camp and cooked sausages, learned knots and then was made squad leader, but I gave it up as I grew disillusioned with other kids desperate to be followers.
I was only in the second troupe a short while (my mum didn't like me baling on the first one) until the akela and his wife were both dragged off to jail for fiddling, their own kids! I mean, really. Why have a cub troupe and fiddle your own kids?
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 29, 2009 10:14 AM
Every time I see "Suffer the little children", I think of this. (probably not safe for work, but not that bad)
Posted by: Gindy | July 29, 2009 10:15 AM
Our neighbor's son went to their church's bible camp this past summer and had a helluva time. He had his first beer,joint, and sexual experience. He plans to go again next summer and maybe even be a camp counselor. The same stuff happened to my sister's son when he went to their bible camp.
Talk about your indoctrinations!
Posted by: Kinzua Kid | July 29, 2009 10:18 AM
Those comments are comedy gold right there. There's not one lacking in thick, stupid irony. Ahhh, it's like the funnies on Sunday. "Now with more color!"
Posted by: daveau
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July 29, 2009 10:22 AM
Here's a good activity:
Make a popsicle stick cross, and nail a cracker to it. Little kids can use glue. And you can decorate the cracker with glitter.
Posted by: Shinobi | July 29, 2009 10:22 AM
I have to say, that as a kid, nothing ruined a good time more effectively than the mention of Jesus. Seriously, we'd be going a long having a great time, making some stuff, singing some songs, playing some games and then WHAMMO! Jesus! Great, thanks for the reminder of the 3 hours a week I already spend immersed in a mixture of boredom and guilt.
Also I went to a YMCA camp growing up, and I'll never forget the stories I heard from kids who used to go t St. John Bosco's summer camp. Everything I learned about sex before age 13 I learned from them, usually while we weren't paying attention during Chapel.
Posted by: Stu
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July 29, 2009 10:22 AM
Tvoyu mat, Jesus!
Posted by: wheatdogg
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July 29, 2009 10:24 AM
I just scanned through their 613 laws of blogging. Apparently, Quakers, Mennonites, Brethren and other peacenik Christians will all be "persecuted, oppressed, slaughtered" in the coming tribulations. So, you can't talk about pacifism there. Besides, it's unAmerican.
I am so Rapture unReady -- a lapsed Quaker. I'm fucked, according to these guys.
Posted by: Eamon Knight | July 29, 2009 10:25 AM
I spent a few adolescent summers at a private, non-church camp in the Ontario Muskokas (which still exists -- any other Tawingo alums out there?). There was a nod in the direction of prevailing religion in that we sang grace before meals. There was also Sunday AM chapel, at which we sang such great hymns of the faith as "Today while the blossoms still cling to the vine...". Other than that, we canoed, hiked, played Capture the Flag (one time a couple of us climbed a rock face in the dark, trying to sneak in to the enemy base. It's amazing we didn't all get killed), made the standard crafts like balsa carvings, gimp lanyards etc. Also learned to swear real good, and picked up a whole bunch of dirty jokes (the pubescent-boy kind, where the emphasis is more on the gross-out than any actual humour value).
In short: a very educational experience!
Posted by: Chris | July 29, 2009 10:26 AM
#54
I just about pissed myself reading that.
Posted by: Stu
|
July 29, 2009 10:29 AM
Fuck, wrong thread. Oh well, the sentiment still stands.
Posted by: Barklikeadog | July 29, 2009 10:33 AM
This was one of the quotes from RR. On it's own I thought it would be a Poe, But...PZ already posted one of her quotes.
Posted by: Lyn | July 29, 2009 10:39 AM
Hey! That atheist camp sounds like something I had growing up... in the form of my Methodist Sunday School class! I didn't realize how lucky I was to be in such a liberal church until I got much older!
Posted by: Happy | July 29, 2009 10:40 AM
"Lets face it Atheism is bankrupt so they have to indoctrinate young children."
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/
Posted by: Porky Pine | July 29, 2009 10:49 AM
If you spend any time over at FSTDT where a great majority of their quotes come from RR, you'll come to the conclusion that the RR folks are nothing more than a death cult. Their posts are all about how sick this world is and that it's getting worse. If any kind of conflict happens in the ME no matter how small, they jump on it as confirmation that the LORD is coming ANY DAY NOW and punctuate their posts with even more praying emoticons than usual.
Seriously, the only reason these people haven't pulled a Jim Jones yet is because that according to their little book, suicide is a mortal sin and if they show up at the gates of Heaven before they were supposed to be there, they can't kiss the ass of their god for all of eternity.
These people are sick in the head.
Posted by: Chris Jones | July 29, 2009 10:52 AM
No, we really don't discriminate against Christianity to the benefit of Islam and others. We recognize all of these religions as being equally irrational.
Posted by: Gilgamesh | July 29, 2009 10:56 AM
I detected glimmerings of (free) thought from one or two of the posters at the Rapture Ready site.
I will -not pray- that they see the rational light and slip free of the rusty shackles of religion.
You could show the rest of the RR minions the 'Jesus Camp' documentary where children worship a cardboard Pres. Bush and are forced to learn complex, subjects presented in a frightening manner (abortion, et al) and they would look at you blankly and say: "Whats' your point?"
Posted by: featheredfrog | July 29, 2009 10:57 AM
I always wondered about this statement. How does a non-corporeal, insubstantial object "burn"?
Posted by: Aetre
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July 29, 2009 11:00 AM
I went to a Lutheran camp as a kid--even was counselor at one in college. We had archery and volleyball, basketball, kickball, ultimate frisbee...
And they always ended in a tie; we weren't allowed to keep score.
Oh, and there were campfire singalongs to old pop songs turned Christian. (Such as "Pharaoh Pharaoh" instead of "Louie Louie.")
The best part of camp was the breakfast toast that came from the conveyor belt machine labeled, "The Toast King." It was removed when we started jokingly praising it for giving us our daily bread. Apparently, that counted as false idol worship.
Posted by: Stephen Wells | July 29, 2009 11:03 AM
@77: because nobody actually believes about souls being ethereal disembodied whatevers. They just expect to be alive after they die, and to see us boiling in sulphur.
Posted by: Abdul Alhazred | July 29, 2009 11:08 AM
See what happens when you mix mythologies?
Posted by: Dianne | July 29, 2009 11:08 AM
How does a non-corporeal, insubstantial object "burn"?
Well, it's probably not oxidation. Maybe souls are made of hydrogen and the burning is fusion? But then wouldn't it be a destructive process that couldn't continue eternally? So confusing!
Posted by: Cuttlefish, OM | July 29, 2009 11:18 AM
I remember Church Camp as a very happy place
Where adolescents gathered with each other, face to face,
And hormones started racing at a rather frightening pace,
And Jesus Christ was nowhere to be found.
I remember rainy days, and soggy, smoldering fires
With teenaged girls and teenaged boys and teenage strong desires,
And all the earthy fantasies that such a place inspires
And, Jesus Christ, we loved to mess around.
I remember Sarah, with her long and gorgeous hair;
She wore a string bikini, and she didn’t seem to care
If it slipped a couple inches while the counselors would stare,
And Jesus Christ himself would find her hot.
I remember Christie, with the braces on her smile;
The daughter of a preacher, she was very versatile,
And we knew that making friends with her was very worth our while,
And Jesus Christ protect us if we’re caught!
I remember learning about what the Bible meant,
Though I never really listened more than one or two percent;
My attention held by how the girls could help me pitch a tent,
And, Jesus Christ, I grew to love that place!
I remember going hiking, going swimming, playing games,
I remember every crush I had—I still recall their names—
Though I rather doubt such memories would fit the church camp aims…
But Jesus Christ? He never showed his face.
http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/2009/07/ah-church-camp.html
Posted by: Hank Fox | July 29, 2009 11:23 AM
I think there should be a "Poe Index" somewhere online, that everybody doing a conscious parody of Christians (and others) would register with.
That way, readers could KNOW whether a site was a Poe or not, if they bothered to check. Christians wouldn't bother to check, or wouldn't even know there was such a thing as a Poe, so they could still fall prey to the joke.
And maybe any comment intended as a Poe would show a superscript "p" or something.
I don't mind getting taken in by a joke, but ... I wonder if a lot of Poe-writers aren't mistakenly driving the bus for Christianity, when what they really want is for that bus to STOP.
It's like fascist cops infiltrating the peace movement in the 60s, spending time running the mimeograph machine printing out anti-Nixon leaflets. (Well, except the intent is GOOD in this case.)
I don't do Poes myself. The Christian monolith is already so powerful, I just don't think we should be joining them, even in jest. To them, it makes them look bigger and more pervasive, more influential.
I get it that a Poe is a joke, and I'm all for that. But it's also dishonest, and even if you're not a godder, you're sort of throwing yourself into their camp by becoming yet another liar, in a field of discourse already too well supplied with them.
Posted by: jak hdfk | July 29, 2009 11:23 AM
you don't got the woodcraft folk on your side o' the pond do ya? they've been running atheist (technically socialist, but whose counting?) children's camps in the uk for over 80 years. spanning the world with friendship, bushcraft, etc (for an example see: http://www.woodcraft.org.uk/library/keyword/elfin & that's just for the little'ns!). i loved it.
and the songs you sing are more along the lines of 'h bomb thunder' and ' the worm song'
Posted by: Hank Fox | July 29, 2009 11:26 AM
Totally off the subject:
Is there a St. Francis University out there somewhere?
I just realized their T-shirts would say StFU.
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | July 29, 2009 11:27 AM
The trouble is that if you are so terminally paranoid as to actually believe that atheists are hell bent on indoctrinating children then the threats to your beloved invisible sky faerie deity come thick and fast from all directions. Just look at popular culture. Just try to put yourself in the mindset of a Fundie (its painful I know but try). Then the true horror is revealed. There is CSI promoting the use of (admitedly horribly inaccurately depicted) forensic science to solve crimes rather than doing the obvious thing . . . asking God who did it! Its easy really, a little trial by fire (or, for the health and safety conscious among you, trial by water) and hey presto! Case instantly solved. Thusly can you smite the malefactor and then go on to burn, torture or otherwise kill off all the atheists/homosexuals/ethnic minorities or whoever else you have decided is responsible for all the ills of the world this week just for good measure. Its a win-win.
Also, lets not forget those Leftie bastards on ST:TNG corrupting the young with their hippie ideas of tolerence and social inclusivism. You have a mind reading counsellor trading on the toes of the divine, Data is a machine and so manifestly cannot have a soul so he can't burn in hell. There are even not only interracial but interspecies relationships depicted! What kind of sick perverts wrote this stuff! I mean the ship itself isn't even shaped like a flying crucifix raining fiery orbital death upon the godless alien heathens of planet Dawkinsia!
Ahem . . . sorry, got a bit carried away there. All this angry irrational ranting is heady stuff.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 29, 2009 11:29 AM
Cuttlefish:
A Gypsy! allusion? Way cool, dude (or dudette, as the case may be)!
More generally, you've been en fuego recently. Great stuff!
Posted by: Mena | July 29, 2009 11:29 AM
Here's more irony. Apparently a fictional person can't be the anti-christ:
http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq410.html
Sigh.
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | July 29, 2009 11:34 AM
Cuttlefish...you are a genius! Cuttlefish for poet laureat I say!
Posted by: Tom Estes | July 29, 2009 11:35 AM
Keep the propaganda coming. This article is meager on substance. But I'm glad atheists have yet one more forum where they can spew their hatred.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 29, 2009 11:38 AM
yawn
Posted by: Hank Fox | July 29, 2009 11:42 AM
Projection Award for the Day goes to Tom Estes #90, with Oak Leaf Cluster for using the word "spew."
The Projection Award for the Week, which only goes to those who also use the words "shriek," "diatribe" and "dogma," just escapes his grasp.
Posted by: Angel Kaida | July 29, 2009 11:42 AM
Hey Tom Estes! Tell us more. What propaganda tactics are involved in a blogger telling interested readers about his wife's current engagement as a counselor at a summer camp?
Posted by: SquidBrandon
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July 29, 2009 11:48 AM
Fixed it for you.
Posted by: eddie | July 29, 2009 11:53 AM
Good point Hank Fox. But, technically, if you know whether it's a Poe or not, it's not a Poe. A Poe would never put fundies in a good light, but will leave you wondering wether they are genuine nutters or making it up for a laugh.
If you feel that religion is flattered by it, it's not a Poe; either it's genuine or the Poe is FAIL.
Posted by: Berlzebub | July 29, 2009 11:53 AM
Hank Fox @ #20:
Just in case you're still wondering, the ladder was probably in reference to Jacob.
I never went to summer camp growing up. Although, my elementary school had two ladies visit once a month to do a felt board presentation on some parable. In high school we had several "guests" to show up and give a speech to the students, almost always with religious overtones.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 29, 2009 11:56 AM
Cuttlefish:
OT, and JOOC, does that stanza form (@82) have a formal name? I used to teach Creative Writing, but that was years (decades, actually) ago, and poesy was never my particular specialty anyway.
Posted by: Marcus | July 29, 2009 12:01 PM
I was bummed I messed up this year and booked a camping trip the week of the NorCal Camp Quest. My oldest will be going next year, my youngest is still too young though.
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | July 29, 2009 12:03 PM
Mr Estes, I am sad for you. I really, really am. The purpose of this site is not to offend you or any other theist. While admittedly we may enjoy the odd joke at the expense of the more hardline believers the principal purpose of this site is the exchange of ideas. I am sorry if these ideas offend you, but I will not betray my social ideals or my commitmant to a scientific understanding of the universe just in order to avoid giving offence to a certain segment of society. Neither will others like me. There is no legal right to not be offended. If you find the opinions posited on this site to be intolerable, you are only one mouse click away from an environment more amenable to your worldview.
Posted by: JM Shep
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July 29, 2009 12:05 PM
@ #90 Tom Estes:
What hatred? Most of the time, the religious accuse the atheists of 'hating god.' How can I hate something that doesn't exist? A direct answer would be appreciated (however, I'm not holding my breath...).
Posted by: Angel Kaida | July 29, 2009 12:13 PM
I have a confession to make, JM Shep. I hate... HATE... with a deep and passionate hatred... pearl-clutching theist trolls who take open disagreement to imply hatred. Indeed, if I found out that one of my friends or loved ones was one of these people, my opinion of them would be significantly lowered.
Just saying.
Posted by: Hypatia's Daughter | July 29, 2009 12:13 PM
#83 Hank Fox
I thought that a POE was meant to be a parody/satire that critiqued a subject by emulating it's most absurd and/or extreme ideas in such a way that one could ALMOST not tell it from the real thing. The idea is to highlight the absurdity.
Comments like "Burn the church; Rescue the Babies; Eat them" is a POE on the fundie idea that atheists are immoral and evil.
I don't get the purpose of a POE that is a so straight that the satire cannot be seen in it. But, unfortunately, some fundie views (i.e.dominionism) are so extreme that there is no way to POE them.
Posted by: Knockgoats | July 29, 2009 12:18 PM
If you want to LOL, go to Tom Estes' site (#90) and read his proof of God's existence - that he was short of money to move house, and got given some by members of the church he was leaving. The humour is in the details, and the total lack of self-awareness - looks to me like they'd count it cheap at twice the price to be rid of him!
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | July 29, 2009 12:18 PM
Angel Kaida: Havn't you heard? Free speach is only OK so long as it protects the right of theist to believe. I mean implying that free speach is a universal right of everybody, even those terrible godless heathens on Pharyngula? That's crazy talk, mister! I'm just off to clutch my pearls some more . . .
Posted by: JM Shep
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July 29, 2009 12:24 PM
Re comment #101:
Angel Kaida, I agree with your general sentiment, however I wouldn't say I hate them. I mostly just feel sad for them. They clearly live in a different reality than I do, and because of that I have little respect for them.
The people I do really despise are those that try to push their particular set of beliefs on me, or into the public schools, especially the science classroom. Those people I refuse to tolerate. Those people are free to home-school their children (as my dad's mother-in-law does, see #52), however they are doing them a great disservice if they don't teach them to think critically. I have seen the effects of this first-hand.
Posted by: whitebird | July 29, 2009 12:25 PM
Dudes - that poll that @19 mentioned is in need! It's just narrowly pro "you can be good without god" signs on buses.
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/20210894/detail.html
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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July 29, 2009 12:25 PM
aaahh yes, Rapture Ready. it's hilarious on most days, utterly depressing on some. if you thought emo kids revel in misery, you haven't spent much time reading RR. Those are some of the most miserable people on earth: failed marriages with self-imposed celibacy, marriages that should have failed but are being kept together for jesus, people so depressed they go to bed wishing not to wake up, self-confessed re-closeted gays, etc.
And there's virtually no chance any of them will get better; every time a rational thought sqeaks by, the instantly assume it's Satan talking to them in their heads
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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July 29, 2009 12:28 PM
"You have a great point, what child wouldn't want to become a Christian after experiencing a summer of nothing but empty, hopeless thoughts."
this is a comment about the Atheist camp, but sounds more like a recipe for bible camp. they really have no concept of skepticism
Posted by: JM Shep
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July 29, 2009 12:32 PM
@Knockgoats #103
First off, I just want to note that I have always liked your posts.
I also navigated over to his site, and wanted to post something along the lines of "the plural of anecdote is not data," but the majority of the posted comments had already addressed that issue to a greater extent than my comment could.
I honestly don't spend a ton of time on those kind of sites, because I hear it from my family enough. Why read on a website what I can experience in real life?
Posted by: Gorogh | July 29, 2009 12:32 PM
Do these guys actually, you know, delete their archives from time to time? In ten years or so, today's talk of "the end is nigh" and such might conceivably irritate even the most fervent believers.
Imagine the dissonance.
Posted by: Joel Redman | July 29, 2009 12:34 PM
Clearly this means that NOTHING can be posted on the Rapture Ready blog:
[24] No Cultic material ... Roman Catholicism, and Seventh Day Adventist, Church of Christ
How much more mainstream can you get than Catholicism and Church of Christ? And why not pick on episcopalians? They're almost as godless as the Atheists ...
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | July 29, 2009 12:36 PM
Now, now Jadehawk be fair. You should say they have no concept of skepticism or irony.
Posted by: chgo_liz | July 29, 2009 12:39 PM
Cuttlefish, if I were still young enough to get pregnant, I would happily offer to have your babies. Lots of them.
Really, whatever your day job, you could quit it.
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | July 29, 2009 12:43 PM
(Gorogh No. 110)Come on now Gorogh, are you seriously expecting internal logic and an honest analysis of their own past statements from hardline end-of-dayers? Be reasonable. If fundies couldn't fall back on the same old tired threats of four scary horsemen and a really ticked of sky faerie coming soon to a reality near you what would they base their arguments upon? Reason? Logic? Open debate? The fictional hell trope would freeze over first.
Posted by: MikeyM | July 29, 2009 12:44 PM
"Fake thumb!"
"Mirror in the bucket!"
"Hinged bottom!"
"Identical twins! With fake boobs!"
Posted by: Sarah P | July 29, 2009 12:48 PM
My favourite Vacation Bible School craft? A construction paper cross with "Jesus Died For Us" written on it, and coloured macaroni glued all over it. We nearly wet ourselves laughing, kept it for years.
Posted by: Jack
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July 29, 2009 1:05 PM
My, how those Christians love to bear false witness!
From Amanda Metskas's piece on Camp Quest in the current issue of Secular Nation:
"Our goal is to provide a place for the children of atheists, agnostics, humanists, brights, skeptics, free-thinkers, rationalists etc to form a community and learn critical thinking, scientific enquiry, free-thought history, comparative religion, and ethics in a fun, hands-on way. (note that we welcome campers from religious families to participate as well, although our programs are primarily aimed at the children of nontheists.)"
Posted by: Gra | July 29, 2009 1:08 PM
"And there's virtually no chance any of them will get better; every time a rational thought sqeaks by, the instantly assume it's Satan talking to them in their heads"
Sure;y it's all one big Poe? Can so many people really be that stupid? Check this out: the thread on Obama's birth certificate is at 205 pages:
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=62878&page=203
Posted by: IST | July 29, 2009 1:16 PM
The RR comments are exactly what I'd expect from them, after having read their comments on other topics. After putting in 10 years at a YMCA summer camp (which I loved despite the occasional outbursts of Jebus), Camp Quest looks like a breath of fresh air. Perhaps a summer job for next year...
Posted by: Gorogh | July 29, 2009 1:25 PM
@Gregory Greenwood #114, I suppose you are right, I should not be
I just wonder, if you become so immunized to rational thinking... what does it take to wake you up if even decades of frustrated expectation don't?
What do these rationally dysfunctional people do for a living anyway? Then again, compartmentalization has proven to be extremely effective... marvelous piece of evolution, that "brain"-thingy.
Posted by: Mike Daniels | July 29, 2009 1:30 PM
@#40:
You are aware that the BSA is a Christian organization, right?
Posted by: Brian Rapp | July 29, 2009 1:34 PM
Because in religion, you're allowed to just make shit up and it instantly becomes reality.
Posted by: Lynna | July 29, 2009 1:35 PM
The poll mentioned @106 stays basically the same over time. Something is fishy.
Posted by: Dr. P | July 29, 2009 1:35 PM
@ 60
I don't know I've got a huyge family a large segment of which is precisely that f-nut crazy. They say the stupidest most inane things to ever be uttered.The thing is, they are completely unaware of their appearance as wackos and wouldn't realize that they are their own best advertisement to run from the crazies if you tried to spell it out for them;like the guy on the corner with the two different shoes carrying something in a year old paper bag that smells and the Robert Smith hair do, they have no idea that they make other people nervous.Posted by: ctgopks
|
July 29, 2009 1:39 PM
I love RR's current most active link:
Oh, my.
Posted by: Stuart Van Onselen | July 29, 2009 1:42 PM
re: Gregory Greenwood, #86
Yes, I routinely heard those exact sentiments expressed in Christian Camp. And even in school. (South Africa in the 1980s was the very antithesis of church-state separation.)
Except of course we didn't have CSI yet. We had McGuyver. Who showed us that humans could achieve things without God. Which is bad. Not only that: It wasn't just atheist ignorance, it was deliberate policy dictated by the very hand of Satan designed to make humans think they could get by without stopping every 5 minutes and asking for God's help.
Jesus Christ shitting crackers. I wish I was making this up. And I wish I hadn't reminded myself of that time. Now my mind is wandering into even darker places. Chick tracts...
Posted by: Dr. P | July 29, 2009 1:45 PM
@ 90;Naaah, this is a rather gentle thread;if you want hate go to rapture ready and read the rules for posting.So many groups of people deemed to have an unworthy political /religious agenda its amazing anyone is getting into heaven.You don't need atheists to hate you what with so many of your own bretheren willing to to the job.
Posted by: Owen | July 29, 2009 1:46 PM
I prefer this kind of Jacob's ladder
Posted by: Owen | July 29, 2009 1:46 PM
I prefer this kind of Jacob's ladder
Posted by: CaroCogitatus | July 29, 2009 2:01 PM
I don't literally LOL at much I read on the internets any more, but the closing quotation got me.
I'm still chuckling.
Posted by: uncle frogy | July 29, 2009 2:11 PM
I never went to any bible camp or Y-camp I was in the BSA and was lucky enough to be in a group that was not very religious at all mostly just baseball and camping. The camping was very focused on the organization of it the planing, packing, logistics not even very much wood lore or much nature lore in an organized way all pretty practical stuff though.
no overt indoctrination in anything of a religious nature I do not remember even saying any "grace" before meals really.
That may be just my memory of it none of that kind of stuff stuck with me. The planing and organization I remembered. I truly loved being out in nature though and learned a lot from observing all the living things that we came across on our camping trips. I would explore on my own. Even found petroleum flies at one camp though I did not know what they were called but saw how they were living. None of the pack or troupe leaders were into any of that kind of stuff nor any of the other scouts either. I can still see some of the insects in my mind that I saw no where else.
Posted by: Phoenix Woman | July 29, 2009 2:18 PM
Ah, PZ, don't you see? It wasn't a school, it was a weeding-out mechanism. For anyone who wouldn't have been right at home in a sheltered-workshop environment, this was a worse torture than anything the authors of the Book of Revelation could dream up. For those with IQs below room temperature, it was probably great fun.
Vacation Bible School: Making unbelievers out of average-and-higher-IQed kids since 1894!
Posted by: Ellestra | July 29, 2009 2:19 PM
Ok, maybe I come from a wrong part of the world (like Poland) but I don't understand why should summer camps have anything to do with God, gods and religion and what any of this has to do with songs sung.
When I was a kid Poland was a communist country so, unless you went on Church organised camp, all summer camps were godless. And neither any activities nor songs had anything to do with God and we all had fun. And things like summer, water, bonfires and friendship are as great subject of songs and arts and crafts as any god.
Posted by: Die Anyway | July 29, 2009 2:48 PM
Cuttlefish that was great!!!
It appears that you may have gone to the same church camp that I went to. Unoccupied cabins and tents were put to good use by many a teen couple. The minister's daughter was one of the wildest and best looking girls there. The lake-side vesper services held at dusk were a great opportunity for couples to sit on the back row of benches and get in a little extra make-out time.
I would suspect that a teen-age level camp of any stripe would encounter the same situation but it's the irony of it happening so heavily at a church sponsored camp that is most amusing.
Posted by: phantomreader42 | July 29, 2009 2:50 PM
Hank Fox @ #85:
I think ThinkGeek.com has a shirt for Ontario Mega Finance Group.
Posted by: MikeTheInfidel | July 29, 2009 2:54 PM
This quote is golden:
Mom: Well, Jimmy, what did you learn at camp?
Jimmy: Nothing, we don't believe in anything. I dislike those judgmental Christians more for some reason. muslims are cool though, and every other religion for that matter.
Mom: That's nice, money well spent.
Jimmy: Yup! I actually did learn one thing though, my life is pointless and they told us that's OK.
Mom: That's wonderful dear.I love that they think promoting skepticism somehow promotes every other religion but Christianity.
Posted by: MikeTheInfidel | July 29, 2009 2:56 PM
Oh, for f.....
Posted by: cousinavi | July 29, 2009 3:06 PM
409: How is the plan progressing?
513: We're stripping away their faith, moral code, respect for authority...we bring in the DNA models tomorrow.
409: Excellent! Soon we will have an army of godless tiny atheists who will do anything...ANYTHING we tell them without fear of eternal Hell. Then we can make our move.
513: Yes...about that.
409: What is it?
513: What's the next step in the plan?
409: What do you mean? We'll have an army of atheists!
513: Yes. I understand that part. What will you do with them?
409:
409:
513: You have got a plan. Haven't you? Oh, for Christ's sake.
Posted by: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood | July 29, 2009 3:13 PM
Thanks! Though I have to say we atheists don't hold a candle when it comes to Christians for hatred. They are masters of the kind of hate that purports to come from love ('love the sinner, hate the sin!') but in reality demands the subjugation of desire, of free choice, of freedom of inquiry. Christians have compassion, but a narrow kind of compassion for 'our kind' and a pitiless disgust for the other, particularly if they are atheist or Mohammedan or some other proscribed tribe.
Nobody hates like a Christian. Maybe that is the reason for their success as a religion; the way they wrap hatred in the language of love. It takes a special type of talent to create the burning cross, the inquisition, the crusade, the pogrom, the assassin who guns down doctors. This is a contest in which they beat the atheist hands down.
Posted by: Canuck | July 29, 2009 3:54 PM
Wow. Irony is not dead.
These people have some kind of special brains. They are immune to cognitive dissonance.
Posted by: Laurie | July 29, 2009 6:03 PM
The idea that camp activities should always have a religious theme is so weird to me. Growing up, I knew tons of kids who went to camp, and even went to Girl Scout camp a couple times and I don't think I ever heard of anyone doing anything religious at camp.
I always thought camp was about teaching kids independence & confidence, and getting them to meet new people and getting them out of doors. Silly me.
Besides you can make perfectly good hokey crafts without involving Jesus. Haven't these people ever heard of woven key rings and tie-dye?
Posted by: twiddler | July 29, 2009 6:04 PM
Here there be "Jesus Fluffer" folk...
Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly.'' Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
http://www.fresh-hope.com/
Smilies and day-glo abound here, you have been warned
Posted by: Rick R | July 29, 2009 6:31 PM
"Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly.'"
Jesus always was a shitty lay.
Posted by: Marc | July 29, 2009 6:58 PM
For an hilarious take on vacation bible school check out Truckstop Honeymoon's song Bad News. I just looked and it's on iTunes.
Posted by: Ragutis | July 29, 2009 7:42 PM
Whenever I hear the term, my first thought is of bruised and sullen stormclouds and thunderheads rumbling in a distant overture.
Why am I not surprised that the Rapture Rejects are all over the birther idiocy? Just got back from the library and saw a truck with "Truth" eating the Darwin fish, "In case of Rapture, car will be driverless" and "Marriage = one man + one woman" bumper stickers and right in between an obnoxiously huge "Where's the birth certificate?" magnetic sign. Probably the person that keeps turning around, hiding, or stuffing Jebus pamphlets into the Dawkins, Hitch and Harris books. Every one of those morons is going to die disappointed and unfulfilled. Sad.
My favorite part: "Until Mr. Creme finally produces his friend Maitreya, I think it's foolish for people to waste their time speculating on his whereabouts." Physician, heal thyself.
Wish I had a kid to send to Camp Quest Florida this winter. Looks like Randi's gonna be there! Any of you coming down for a winter holiday with the kids should consider it.
Posted by: 12th Monkey | July 29, 2009 7:53 PM
NewEnglandBob: Jesus used to show up at fundie summer camps but he drowned one year when he tried to walk on water.
Jesus was Jason Voorhees? It all makes sense now, like the way he can't ever really be killed. Jesus... Jason... Jesus, yes, how could I not have seen it.
Posted by: MIchael X | July 29, 2009 8:08 PM
So the last quote was indeed irony busting. But then Tom comes in and breaks the irony meter again!
He waltzes in, claims "propaganda" is being used but does not show where or how. THEN, in the very next sentence he decries the lack of substance in PZ post. THEN he goes on to berate us for "hatred" in a comment that has no content or purpose other than to display his contempt for us!
All this in 3 sentences... If you think RR is "poe", I present Tom as exhibit A. It's literally mindmeltingly stupid.
Posted by: Eidolon | July 29, 2009 8:15 PM
Typekey seems dodgy...
I'm not sure all may have the stomach for this, but you really need to go and check out the comments in the camp thread and others as well. I also like the handles and bible quotes on nearly every post.
These people have a remarkable ability to hate and stay detached from any reality. These are the good Christians that get such special treatment in this country.
Posted by: Katkinkate | July 29, 2009 8:36 PM
Sometimes I wish the rapture would come. Then we can get on with our lives without those pesky war-mongering, lying, cheating, dishonest, self-righteous christians. But then I realise, if it did happen, that would mean that they were right and I would be very disappointed with the universe.
Posted by: Coran | July 29, 2009 8:41 PM
Oh dear, the first response on RR to PZ's last quote:
My first thought was "Weren't the nails supposed to be on the hands and feet?"
Posted by: MoxieHart | July 29, 2009 8:56 PM
I went to marine biology camp at Chincoteague Island in Virginia when I was 15. Nary a mention of god and I turned out ok. I did get to spend my time doing useful things, like learning about the environment and we even caught a tiny squid and a stingray while trawling.
Posted by: frog | July 29, 2009 9:39 PM
OK, PZ. I know see where your attitude comes from -- to imagine being forced to spend your summers making Jesus-themed handicrafts!
You've been to hell. Those who went to regular summer camps were they just canoed, swam at 5 in the morning, studied statistic or programming, etc, will never, ever understand.
I hope that time can dull the pain; but if Freud is at all right, well, I just hope you drink. Alot.
Posted by: sjmalarkey | July 29, 2009 10:34 PM
Could someone please spell out the meaning of "Poe"? I've just about settled on "Poor ol' evangelist", but that doesn't seem quite right. I'm really curious about this new name for what I'd call a troll.
Posted by: Jadehawk | July 29, 2009 10:45 PM
Poe's Law
a "poe" is a suspected fake fundie
Posted by: Jadehawk | July 29, 2009 10:47 PM
Poe's Law
a "poe" is a suspected fake fundie
Posted by: sjmalarkey | July 29, 2009 10:53 PM
Got it! Thanks for the reference, Jadehawk. In line with the first definition, I'd have thought that parody is often impossible :-)
Posted by: Dan W | July 30, 2009 1:04 AM
That last comment, PZ... oh wow. Pot, kettle, black?
Posted by: Dan W | July 30, 2009 1:35 AM
I'm sorely tempted to register an account on Rapture Ready's website, just so I can see how fast they ban me for trying to reason with and debate those ignorant fundies.
Posted by: Jadehawk | July 30, 2009 1:42 AM
Dan, they've banned people before they've even made a single post, for having a handle not sufficiently fundietarded
Posted by: Ragutis | July 30, 2009 2:26 AM
Strangely, the catholic summer camp I attended and later helped supervise did much the same. It was pretty much an opening prayer then either a day of games and crafts or a field trip. The field trips were the beach, a local zoo and science museum/planetarium, a nearby waterslide park, canoeing at a state park, a sea turtle museum and rehab (R.I.P. Eleanor Fletcher), and walking the sea grass beds of the Intracoastal netting various critters. Location + a liberal order running things led to a surprisingly god-lite summer camp.
I must take the opportunity to praise Cuttlefish. His description is closer to home than even FZ's "Catholic Girls". (And, perhaps consequently, I'm grateful to never have had this problem.)
It's not perfect. It took more than summer camp for me. Camp + retreats + youth group... summer camp was just the awakening of my sexuality. It wasn't until I, and the girls I was lusting for, were old enough to be counselors and staff at these things that the ball really started rolling. God got me to third base. Then again, god also made me too chicken to go for home for a number of years. Asshole.
Happy Monkey for that new age hippie chick and her wonderful weed that overcame my insensibilities.
Posted by: Ragutis | July 30, 2009 2:33 AM
Strangely, the catholic summer camp I attended and later helped supervise did much the same. It was pretty much an opening prayer then either a day of games and crafts or a field trip. The field trips were the beach, a local zoo and science museum/planetarium, a nearby waterslide park, canoeing at a state park, a sea turtle museum and rehab (R.I.P. Eleanor Fletcher), and walking the sea grass beds of the Intracoastal netting various critters. Location + a liberal order running things led to a surprisingly god-lite summer camp.
I must take the opportunity to praise Cuttlefish. His description is closer to home than even FZ's "Catholic Girls". (And, perhaps consequently, I'm grateful to never have had this problem.)
It's not perfect. It took more than summer camp for me. Camp + retreats + youth group... summer camp was just the awakening of my sexuality. It wasn't until I, and the girls I was lusting for, were old enough to be counselors and staff at these things that the ball really started rolling. God got me to third base. Then again, god also made me too chicken to go for home for a number of years. Asshole.
Happy Monkey for that new age hippie chick and her wonderful weed that overcame my insensibilities.
Posted by: Ragutis | July 30, 2009 2:45 AM
Sorry! As the time stamps attest, something was fucked up. Backed out, refreshed... nothing. Tried again... nothing. Refresh... oh, there it is!
Posted by: DebinOz | July 30, 2009 7:13 AM
My ex tells of being shipped off to Bible Memory Association camp every summer.
The games consisted of being the first to find a particular verse in the KJV of the bible, and other really interesting stuff. Prizes were often plastic glow-in-the-dark Jeebus figurines!
My ex hates his parents.
Posted by: bernerbits | July 30, 2009 8:07 AM
It's not your soul that goes to hell. God intends to reassemble your decayed corpse, grant it immortality and make it flame-retardant, but forget to take the nerve endings out. Duh!
Posted by: Walton | July 30, 2009 12:31 PM
Jadehawk, my promised reply:
Just bear in mind that all healthcare, whatever the system, is rationed in some way. In the end, it is not possible for everyone to have access to the latest, most expensive care. In the US, a person's access to care is rationed by his or her insurance company and, ultimately, by what he or she can afford. In the UK, it's rationed by a government agency: the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE), which decides what treatments will be funded by the NHS.
There have been several news stories in the UK over the last few years about seriously ill people whose lives could be saved by new treatments, but who can't get those treatments on the NHS because NICE deems them too expensive. And until recently, the rule was that if you decided to obtain a particular drug or treatment privately because the NHS wouldn't fund it, you then had to pay the full cost of your hospital care privately; it was all or nothing.
Yes, it's bad that you and other people are denied care that you need because you can't afford to pay for it. But in the end, a state-run system does not eliminate the problem of limited resources; it merely spreads it around.
If someone in the UK is diagnosed with an unusual illness for which they need an expensive brand-new treatment, then the NHS is likely to refuse to pay for the treatment - just as their counterpart in the US might find that their insurance company would refuse to pay for the treatment. In both cases, they're going to die, unless they're lucky enough to be able to afford to pay for the treatment out-of-pocket. There is always rationing of this sort - because healthcare is expensive, and first-rate healthcare simply cannot be provided to every single person.
The question is how, and on what basis, we ration healthcare. It can be rationed on the basis of ability to pay; or it can be rationed on the basis of what some government bureaucrat thinks is "cost-effective"; or, as in most countries, a mixture of the two. Neither of these is a particularly good option; but I suppose that's reality, and I doubt there's anything you or I can ever do to change it.
Posted by: Walton | July 30, 2009 12:33 PM
Oops, sorry - posted the above on the wrong thread. Please ignore it.
Posted by: red rabbit | July 30, 2009 1:23 PM
My irony meter too.
Been to Bible Camp, Band Camp, Computer Camp, Y-camp.... my mother just wanted rid of me I think.
I wasn't great at Bible Camp. I went with my Pentecostal friend, who nearly disowned me when I pointed out that the sportscar driving counsellor was a hypocrite because he thought "The Kingdom of Heaven" was his, but Ghandi was going to hell. Counsellor turned white with anger and the kids got into a shouting match. I was 10. It was great.
"Oh and once? In band camp?...."
Posted by: meh1963 | July 30, 2009 1:52 PM
In response to #142, "Jesus Fluffer"
Do you even know what a fluffer is?
If not, here's a link: Fluffers
Somehow I don't think that's what you mean by "Jesus Fluffer"....
The stupidity, it burns.
Posted by: SEF | August 3, 2009 4:38 AM
If an RR person got kidnapped (for spare organs or slavery or as a suspected terrorist or whatever), they might not be reported to the police as a missing person at all. Instead all the other RRs among their friends and relations would assume they had been raptured and would sit around waiting (praying and/or screaming) for it to be their turn. They'd be very easy victims for the right sort of predator.
With the ready-made excuse that a thousand years is like a day to a god (or whatever the wording is!), they wouldn't even have the right to expect they all had to be taken simultaneously from their point of view.