…and this is a 
The Creation "Museum" is experiencing some dread and trepidation about our visit, and they have sent a letter to me and to the SSA expressing their concerns. These are some reasonable worries, given that there will be a huge number of us (240 and counting) showing up in one mass. Here's what they have to say, and my comment to all of you.
Dr. Paul Myers (and the Secular Student Alliance)
Biology Dept.
University of Minnesota-Morris
600 East 4th Street
Morris, MN 56267Re: Creation Museum Visit - Notice of Policies
Dear Dr. Paul ("P.Z.") Myers and the SSA:
As the Security Manager for the Department of Public Safety at the Answers in Genesis Creation Museum, I am writing in regard to your planned visit to the museum, along with those associated with the group called the Secular Student Alliance, scheduled for August 7, 2009.
The purpose of this letter is to advise you of our standard policies and requirements concerning guest behavior.
Succinctly stated, and posted on signs at a number of locations at the museum premises, is the following notice:
The Creation Museum is private property, an outreach of Answers in Genesis. Guests at the museum are expected to conduct themselves in a polite, respectful manner at all times. Loud, disrespectful, destructive, obscene, or abusive behavior will not be tolerated, and may result in your removal from the premises. Please be courteous to other guests, security personnel, and our staff while you are here. Thank you!
Also, please be advised that vehicles and all packages, bags, and articles may be subject to inspection when on the premises or when entering or leaving the premises.
In reviewing your blog and website at http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula, we have observed a number of hostile, crude, and profane comments that suggest that some in the SSA group may be using your visit as an opportunity to engage in demonstrations, mocking behavior, wearing offensive clothing, or in other conduct that would be offensive to our staff and to other guests. We note, for example, that you have written that you urge the group to wear "godless clothing."
We understand that your group (which you have described as a "horde" or "mob") will consist of over 200 persons, many of whom have posted comments on your Pharyngula blog ridiculing Ken Ham and the Creation Museum, using profane language, and some are indicating that it is their intent to conduct themselves in a manner that is provocative, overtly homosexual in behavior, or otherwise socially unacceptable for guests of this privately owned Christian facility. As I'm sure you're aware, some of those statements reference intentions to be "loud" and also to wear "armbands" and T-shirts or other clothing with images or wording that would be considered offensive to our staff and others at the museum. Such conduct will not be tolerated.
The Creation Museum is a privately owned facility; there is no legal right to engage in demonstrations, to harass or insult other guests, staff members, or speakers, or to otherwise engage in conduct that would be disruptive or rude. Again, such actions will not be permitted.
So long as you and the SSA group are willing to abide by our policies requiring civil behavior at all times, to include being respectful of others and of our facilities, then you will be welcome as our guests; but if you do not intend to abide by these policies, then please cancel your visit to the Creation Museum.
We request your acknowledgment of receipt of this letter and your agreement to abide by these policies.
We note that, unlike the exchanges posted on the Pharyngula site, communications from Lyz Laddell of the Secular Student Alliance have generally been polite and respectful, which we appreciate.
We remain willing to host you and the SSA group, provided you assure us that your party will remain civil and abide by our policies and that you have addressed those who have expressed contrary intentions for their visit. We request the courtesy of receiving your written response prior to your arrival. If we do not receive your written assurance that your party will abide by our policies, we will have no choice but to turn your group away at the entrance.
Sincerely,
David Blaylock
Security Manager
Department of Public Safetycc: John Pence, Esq.
Here's what I expect: EVERYONE in our group will be firm, rational, and will not shy away from asking hard questions. You will feel free to wear some distinguishing clothing — a scarlet A, a Darwin fish, a t-shirt, something so that we can tell we are members of the same group. You will discuss the material on display with your peers, but with other visitors to the "museum" if and only if they invite it.
There are a number of things you will not do, however.
Do not show up wearing obscenities or particularly abusive articles of clothing. Dress casual, but look good — you are setting an example. Pro-science t-shirts are excellent, t-shirts with naked lesbians masturbating with bibles will give them an excuse to throw you out, so don't do it. The SSA won't even give you a ticket if you show up looking like you want to brawl.
You will not be disruptive. This is an information gathering mission that will make you a better informed individual to criticize bad ideas. Do not interfere with other visitors' ability to examine the place. Ask questions only where appropriate. Collect questions that you can ask of any of the real scientists who will be in our group. Do not get into loud arguments. If a discussion starts getting angry on either side I want you to be the ones to back off.
Remember, if you are calm, civil, and well-behaved, and you tour the "museum", we win. If you are calm, civil, and well-behaved, and the security guards throw you out because they don't like the fact that you're an atheist, we win. If you are angry, rude, and cause trouble that gives them a reasonable excuse to throw you out, we lose, and I will be very pissed off at you.
Before you go into the "museum", you will have to get a ticket from the SSA staff. You will be expected to sign an agreement promising your good behavior before you get one, and we'll lay down a few rules for good behavior. We'll probably have several designated counselors who will be charged with keeping everyone in line, too — we will police our own (another reason we'd like to be able to tell you are one of our godless horde on site), and if you're causing a scene that might lead to SSA's disrepute, we'd like to ask you to leave before their security does.
After we leave their private property, it will be time to laugh and mock and vent, and we will: this trip will produce over 200 experienced people who know exactly what kind of lunacy the Creation "Museum" represents, and we will express ourselves in opinion pieces, on blogs, at school board meetings, and in gatherings with our friends. That's where we get our payoff, not in rudeness during our visit that gets us evicted.
Our model for this visit will be my infamous expulsion from a movie theater. Remember, what made that work is that I did absolutely nothing to justify getting thrown out: I followed all of their procedures for getting tickets, I used my full name, I was respectably dressed, and I was behaving myself in line, having a quiet conversation with friends and family. That left no doubt that my ejection was arbitrary and personal and an attempt to silence me. It would not have been effective if I'd been capering about, rudely accosting people, or essentially making myself a target for justifiable removal. It's the same situation at this event. Do not hide who you are, but also don't give them any excuse to mistreat you, other than your identity as an atheist.
If you really want to vent about the abomination in Kentucky, register for the SSA conference. Lots of attendees will be there to talk, and I'll be giving the keynote speech at the meeting…and my topic will be atheist activism, and I'll be including material I'll be gathering that Friday at the Creation "Museum", including giving some formal rebuttals.
Comments
Posted by: O-dot-O | July 28, 2009 2:12 PM
> t-shirts with naked lesbians masturbating with bibles
> will give them an excuse to throw you out, so don't do it.
Curses, foiled again.
Posted by: truebutnotuseful | July 28, 2009 2:16 PM
Dammit! I'm never going to get to wear my naked lesbian bible-masturbation shirt, am I?
Posted by: QrazyQat | July 28, 2009 2:17 PM
Remember, that also leaves out T-shirts accurately illustrating many Bible scenes.
Posted by: aratina cage
|
July 28, 2009 2:17 PM
WTF and LOL! Whatever do they mean? Same-sex kissing? Hand holding?Posted by: Curt Cameron | July 28, 2009 2:19 PM
PZ, can we see your response back to Mr. Blaylock? I imagine that could be entertaining.
Posted by: Glen Davidson
|
July 28, 2009 2:19 PM
Sounds like you're worried about it too, PZ. Anyway, the letter sounds reasonable, except I wonder what this is about:
Surely they need good cause to inspect vehicles, etc. If they have it, and do, fine. Otherwise, not fine.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: Michael X | July 28, 2009 2:22 PM
We've noticed that when you talk amongst yourselves you think we're full of shit and freely state it. However these other people, when talking to us, are nice. We're far too stupid to see a difference in these situations and would like to use this as an implication of your inherent incivility to everyone at all times.
We're also scared shitless of you and are looking for any good reason to remove you. Thus we request extra measures to be fulfilled because you're evil atheists.
I'm just sad he didn't end with "We'll be praying for you."
Posted by: Matt H.
|
July 28, 2009 2:22 PM
Good luck getting the Pharyngulites to act decently, PZ. I feel sorry for the SSA, they've worked on this for a while now and it looks like it might be ruined by a select few imbeciles who troll this blog.
I look forward to reading your account, in any case.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 28, 2009 2:22 PM
Many real museums have the same requirement to be able to inspect packages and bags. It's part of their attempt to mimic.
Although most real science museums don't have much call for armed guards and police dogs everywhere. The Creation "Museum" is very law&order.
Posted by: Dan | July 28, 2009 2:22 PM
Anyone want to bet that a creationist will show up pretending to be an atheist and cause a ruckus?
Posted by: TheBlackCat | July 28, 2009 2:23 PM
Is there a rule against video or audio recording equipment? If not, it might be good to have people video taping the whole thing, both to provide a record of the event and what was seen, but also in case anyone does get thrown out for arbitrary and unfair reasons.
Posted by: MattB | July 28, 2009 2:24 PM
I'm guessing overtly heterosexual behavior is prohibited as well.
What a backwards, delusional bunch of weirdos.
Can you take pictures in the "museum"? Probably not...
Posted by: Pete Murray
|
July 28, 2009 2:25 PM
This sounds pretty cool. I wish you success. Reading your description of appropriate behavior for the visit got me thinking, in light of the all of the recent activity over Unscientific America. I would be really interested, after the visit to the 'museum,' of a comparison between this action and crackergate. Specifically, what I'm curious about is your take on the differences (or not) in your goals in doing these things, the intended (and, maybe, the unintended) audience, your strategies to achieve those goals, and then perhaps something about how well you think those goals were accomplished.
If you had any interest in writing such a thing, I think it could help to provide a response to the current batch of critiques, that seem to leave the background context of crackergate behind, in a way that the critics themselves (or at least their listeners) could hear. Of course, you would need to have some interest in reaching those folks. For what it's worth, I'd at least like to hear what you think about it.
Posted by: Heaventree
|
July 28, 2009 2:26 PM
aratina cage # 4: they clearly mean "existing in the world without having been stoned at the gates of the city," as clearly demanded by God's Word.
Dan # 10: surely that's a likely scenario.
Posted by: JefFlyingV | July 28, 2009 2:28 PM
Good sound advice Prof. Myers. I was surprised that the "museum" had consented to an SSA tour of the premises. Are they hoping for converts?
I am looking forward to SSA members and your postings after the tour.
Posted by: Nec_V20 | July 28, 2009 2:28 PM
Just a question PZ would turning up wearing a "BOFH" T-Shirt be OK?
Posted by: SamB | July 28, 2009 2:28 PM
What, so nobody can use their Cradle of Filth 'Vestal Masturbation' (aka 'Jesus is a Cunt') T-shirt? boo
(seriously, it exists: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f2/BGCTCF15.jpg People have been arrested for wearing it!)
Posted by: room101 | July 28, 2009 2:29 PM
I've been online for the last half hour trying to find one of these, to no avail - damn.
Posted by: Abdul Alhazred | July 28, 2009 2:29 PM
Maybe I'm being paranoid, but this seems to be a perfect set up for agents provocateurs.
Posted by: MikeM | July 28, 2009 2:30 PM
Yeah, when we visited AMNH, they looked through my backpack, where they found an SLR and a camcorder.
But, looking through your car? Sorry, they don't have the right to do that. Being in Sacramento, I'm one of the 1/3 of Americans who can't get there in a day's drive, so that's a bummer. But if I could, and they tried to inspect my car, I would calmly lock it until I could get a police officer to explain to those requesting the inspection why they have no legal basis for such an inspection.
And, seriously, there's nothing in there that'd bother them. Okay, I might have a Green Day CD in the car; would that be over the top for them?
I'm bad with confrontations. I'm pretty sure I'd wear a Hawaiian shirt.
Posted by: Copache | July 28, 2009 2:31 PM
I full expect to get mauled by a dog after doing nothing notable and then have Fox News condemn me as an evil atheist who was being disruptive despite the sudden disappearance of surveillance video.
I never thought about doing anything disorderly, I just want to have a good time!
Posted by: Zeno | July 28, 2009 2:31 PM
Damn. I wish I were going! People keep mistaking me for a right-wing Christer, so my protective coloration would enable me to blend into the background and listen to what the true believers have to say about the god-forsaken visitors. It'd be fun!
(It's amazing what people are willing to say when they think you're a fellow traveler. And depressing, too.)
Posted by: skeet | July 28, 2009 2:31 PM
My first visit to the Creation Museum was a blast. The security guard in the parking lot had a patch on his shoulder that had a dinosaur on it!
Me: WOAH! That patch has a dinosaur on it!
Him: Yeah.
Me: Man, I always thought about getting into law enforcement, I didn't know I could get a DINOSAUR PATCH!
Him: *beady eyes*
Posted by: tsg | July 28, 2009 2:32 PM
Uh oh. He's carbon-copying his lawyer at you...
Posted by: aratina cage
|
July 28, 2009 2:32 PM
Heaventree, of course! I should have realized that. What else would a museum preaching the Pentateuch have meant?
Posted by: Copache | July 28, 2009 2:33 PM
...
Fully...
...
Posted by: b00ger | July 28, 2009 2:34 PM
From someone who can't attend, I would like to see the "mob" act in a completely civil manner so you can attend the full tour and report back about everything you see. Getting thrown out for misbehavior will only set us back, in more ways than one.
PZ - Good luck in keeping that many people under control. I suggest cattle prods just in case.
Posted by: Izam | July 28, 2009 2:34 PM
My favorite part is that they put "armbands" in quotes, like it's a code for something conniving.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 28, 2009 2:34 PM
I have created a new market niche. Somebody create them, but remember -- you don't get to wear them to the creation "museum".
Posted by: Bronze Dog | July 28, 2009 2:38 PM
Always good to lay out rules for reasonable behavior like that. Even we can attract irrational idiots looking for an excuse to do something crazy.
Posted by: Michelle R
|
July 28, 2009 2:39 PM
I'm very curious on how things will turn out when you folks get there. Will they frown at every snicker? Will they zealously search every bag for a kidnapped cracker?!
Remember folks, leave your Ritz boxes at home.
(and I know for a fact that in groups, it takes just ONE asshole to brand everyone a jerk. But I been in a 50,000 people march for freedom of speech, and NO ONE there did a misstep. Our opponents that were looking for jerks left disgruntled. I have faith *snrk* in you guys!)
Posted by: Joe Willis | July 28, 2009 2:39 PM
My birthday is August 7, and I can't think of a better present than spending the day thinking about your visit to the Creation Museum. I wish I could be there.
Posted by: mikka | July 28, 2009 2:40 PM
No need for an agent provocateur, a 200+ crowd virtually guarantees there will be trouble. It will be just too easy for security to stage it. And when there is, watch Fox news spin this as part of the culture wars and anti xtian oppression. Billo is going to have a field day.
I have a bad feeling about this. Groups of 20 would make me feel a lot better.
Best of luck to all involved.
Posted by: Brock | July 28, 2009 2:40 PM
Right on, PZ!
For those who can't make the trip, and those who just want a sneak peek, biologist Jonathan Gitlin of Ars Technica wrote up his field trip back in 2007. He also has posted a Flickr gallery chock full o' photos :D
Posted by: Ken Cope | July 28, 2009 2:41 PM
In this excerpt from an episode of The IT Crowd, we learn how Cradle of Filth changed Richmond's life.
Posted by: SciencePundit
|
July 28, 2009 2:41 PM
What are you saying PZ? Are you discouraging people from going in their in wheelchairs and pretending to be mentally handicapped?
Posted by: SciencePundit
|
July 28, 2009 2:44 PM
*there*
Posted by: Mike in Ontario, NY
|
July 28, 2009 2:44 PM
If I were going to attend, I would dress business casual. Nothing says "not a troublemaker" like a pressed shirt, nice slacks, shined shoes, and a tie. I know it sounds really, really lame, but maybe THAT'S the best way to self-identify: dress just like those 18 year-old "Elders" that come a-pamphleteering to your home. Gives them one less reason to initiate a confrontation.
And no pulling the fig leafs off Adam and Eve, kiddies!
Posted by: overburden
|
July 28, 2009 2:45 PM
I sincerely hope all of you attending this 'event' seriously consider your responsibility. You are representative of a greater group of 'reasonable' individuals. Your behavior must be above reproach, reflecting your education and intelligence, not that of the clueless, unschooled dolts many of your comments suggest.
Professor Myers expects much more of you than cute sarcasm and buffoonery - we all do.
If you go, you represent millions of 'atheists', for you are now publicly identified as so.
If you fuck this up, and there is a good chance some 'one in two hundred' will do just that, you will have nothing to crow about, you'll be eating it.
Go in peace, my children.
Posted by: James F | July 28, 2009 2:48 PM
Even better would have been:
...Posted by: B. Scott Andersen | July 28, 2009 2:49 PM
I wish I could go. I would wear my best suit, newly shined shoes, and appointed with a single, small, Darwin-fish lapel pin.
Be good, everybody. That's the last thing they expect.
-- Scott
Posted by: Dan Gilbert | July 28, 2009 2:50 PM
I called the Creation Museum a few weeks ago to check about cameras and video cameras. They told me that both are allowed, so unless they're going to create special rules for you guys, you should have no problem.
Like PZ and a few others who've commented here, I really hope it all goes without a hitch and everyone is on their best behavior so we have great representation.
Posted by: Merrydol | July 28, 2009 2:52 PM
Mikka has a good point about breaking into smaller groups- is there an elementary school teacher around to give the SSA advice on herding techniques?
Posted by: Caine | July 28, 2009 2:53 PM
overburden @ 39, sure you don't want to nail yourself to a tree to drive your chock-full-o'wisdom home?
It may be helpful to you to realize that indulging in humour on the net is not a sterling indicator of behaviour in social situations.
Posted by: Ben in Texas | July 28, 2009 2:55 PM
I fully expect the "museum" to clarify further and say that atheist clothing of any type will not be acceptable.
Posted by: Ray Ingles | July 28, 2009 2:57 PM
I just love how they're disturbed by the idea of "godless" clothing - as if that would, ipso facto, be "offensive".
Oh, wait...
Posted by: bobxxxx | July 28, 2009 2:57 PM
Pro-science atheists are going to give their money to child-abuser Ken Ham and they have to promise to not laugh at the stupidity in his ridiculous fake museum. This makes no sense.
By the way, David Blaylock, Security Manager Department of Public Safety, since you're probably reading this thread, please read this message from me to you: You're a disgrace to your country, you're a stupid piece of shit, and you belong in prison for mental child abuse.
Posted by: Sarcastro | July 28, 2009 2:59 PM
That's the most insulting thing I've ever read.
Like they think you're a bunch of children or something.
Posted by: Becky | July 28, 2009 3:01 PM
Can you really buy a t-shirt with naked lesbians masturbating with bibles?
I obviously don't get out enough....
Posted by: overburden
|
July 28, 2009 3:01 PM
Caine@44, point taken - I hope you speak for all in attendance - that's a lot of sterling.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 28, 2009 3:03 PM
I really hope that some idiot doesn't decide to make a giant ass out of himself.
I have fear of some overly zealous member of the horde doing just that.
I also have fear of some overly zealous member of the Museum's fans doing it to try and make you all look bad.
Posted by: Mike in Ontario, NY
|
July 28, 2009 3:04 PM
Overburden @ 39: as always, your "concern" is noted and mocked. Go and piss up a rope.
Posted by: Scote | July 28, 2009 3:06 PM
The latter is likely false. They may be able to enforce a policy of bag inspection upon entering the facility, making entry contingent upon compliance, but they cannot enforce a policy of inspection upon leaving it. They have no police powers other than as common citizens and may not forcibly detain anyone or search bags unless they have witnessed a crime. The most they can do if you refuse to let them inspect a bag absent an actual believe a crime has been committed is ask you to leave. Many places claim to reserve the right to perform inspections at any time in spite of having no legal authority to do so.
IANAL. This is not legal advice. But neither should anybody mistake the Creation Museum's expansive claims of police power to be based on sound legal ground.
Posted by: Caine | July 28, 2009 3:07 PM
Caine@44, point taken - I hope you speak for all in attendance - that's a lot of sterling.
*shrugs* As previously stated by PZ, if someone misbehaves, they'll get tossed out - by the godless crowd.
Oh, by the way, I speak for myself, as usual.
Posted by: Eamon Knight | July 28, 2009 3:07 PM
But, looking through your car? Sorry, they don't have the right to do that.
Sounds like they're afraid of vehicular bombs from the AtheistEvilutionistSecularCommunistMuslim hordes. Which pretty much goes with the paranoid mindset of the Christian Right.
Posted by: bobxxxx | July 28, 2009 3:08 PM
So go in there and censor yourselves atheists. Suck up to and be respectful of all the brain-dead child abusers, also known as parents, in that monument to Christian insanity. Be part of the problem and give your money to an asshole, the retard Ken Ham.
Posted by: Scote | July 28, 2009 3:10 PM
The latter is likely false. They may be able to enforce a policy of bag inspection upon entering the facility, making entry contingent upon compliance, but they cannot enforce a policy of inspection upon leaving it. They have no police powers other than as common citizens and may not forcibly detain anyone or search bags unless they have witnessed a crime. The most they can do if you refuse to let them inspect a bag absent an actual believe a crime has been committed is ask you to leave. Many places claim to reserve the right to perform inspections at any time in spite of having no legal authority to do so.
IANAL. This is not legal advice. But neither should anybody mistake the Creation Museum's expansive claims of police power to be based on sound legal ground.
Posted by: recovering catholic | July 28, 2009 3:11 PM
Rev--this is going to happen, I fear, so I've decided to back out. Let me be clear that I don't think one of the evilutionists or atheists is going to start something, but how can Ham and his drones resist the opportunity to stir up something nasty?
Sorry to be such a wuss, all, but I'm gettin' too old for this sort of thing. I wish you all well, and hope that PZ stops feeling personally responsible for everyone attending.
Stay safe!
Posted by: Brock | July 28, 2009 3:14 PM
@bobxxxx (#56): Oh come on. Delayed gratification is one of those things that separates the smarter primates from the other animals. As PZ wrote, the atheists in attendance should behave on the "museum" premises and maintain a non-destructive, civil record... and then LATER eviscerate every detail of fundie bullshit across the web and in print.
The idea is that the hundreds of scathing reviews will Ken Ham more than the $10 per person entry fee... by making potential "on the fence" visitors aware of how frothingly stupid that palace to ignorance really is.
Posted by: Mike in Ontario, NY
|
July 28, 2009 3:17 PM
For Jebus sake bobxxxx, take your meds already and try to relax a little.
Posted by: aratina cage
|
July 28, 2009 3:17 PM
I was not going and after the homophobic letter I wouldn't go anywhere near the place myself, but I totally disagree with RDB and recovering catholic. I would bet that nothing will happen and nothing would have happened before the letter. They are just posturing trying to rile up fear and turn people away, and it worked.
Posted by: bobxxxx | July 28, 2009 3:17 PM
The "the hundreds of scathing reviews" will be read by exactly zero creationists.
Posted by: Brock | July 28, 2009 3:18 PM
Typo: ^^will *cost* Ken Ham...
Posted by: JanitorforChrist777 | July 28, 2009 3:18 PM
So I guess the countdown to the inevitable atheist violence has started.
Try not to emulate Hitler too much. Your killing of Jews will not be tolerated at God's museum.
Posted by: firemancarl | July 28, 2009 3:19 PM
As many other have stated, I too fear there will be a 5th column operating. What an excellent opportunity of Ken and his hacks to make some point, any point , about how rude/crass/ etc. etc. we evilutionists are!
Posted by: Qwerty | July 28, 2009 3:20 PM
The t-shirt and bumper sticker I have seen is "Dip her in honey and throw her to the lesbians."
I am sure this t-shirt would also be a no-no, but that's probably the kind of thing they had in mind.
I was thinking about going, but a visit by my sister and brother put the kabosh on going. Anyhow, I feel that some of the posters here are just letting off steam and I doubt most, if not all, will behave appropriately.
Have fun and do as PZ asks. Let them throw you out for the same insanity that created the creation museum in the first place and not any rude or disruptive behavior.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 28, 2009 3:20 PM
Stupidest thing written on the internet today and purely there to start the riling up.
here we go
Posted by: Bronze Dog | July 28, 2009 3:20 PM
I've still got some worries, but here's to hoping the Zerg rush is as orderly as the Modron March.
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | July 28, 2009 3:20 PM
Uh, Mr. Blaylock sir, could you please define "respectful" a little more explicitly?
Posted by: tsg | July 28, 2009 3:21 PM
"I'll take 'Missing The Point' for 500, Alex."
Posted by: LinzeeBinzee | July 28, 2009 3:21 PM
Judging by the behaviour of the audience at TAM7 during the million dollar challenge (you could've heard a pin drop), I don't think there will be any problems.
How big is this museum anyways? I always pictured it as one of those one-room museums with laminated papers taped to the walls next to stuffed dinosaurs...at least that's what Winnipeg's creation museum looks like. I haven't been to many museums...but how big is it compared to, say, the ANHM or the Harvard NHM?
Posted by: bobxxxx | July 28, 2009 3:22 PM
"They are just posturing trying to rile up fear and turn people away, and it worked."
The Taliban at that fake museum want all pro-science people who come there to censor themselves. It worked. They have agreed to not even laugh. They agreed to be suck-ups.
Posted by: kate | July 28, 2009 3:23 PM
that's it. I'm designing a naked lesbian masturbating with bibles shirt.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 28, 2009 3:23 PM
Yes Bobxxx lets all go in and make asses of ourselves being as rude as possible.
That'll show 'em.
By no means would that give them any ammunition to show that atheists are no more than mean spirited bullies.
great idea.
Posted by: firemancarl | July 28, 2009 3:24 PM
To be honest I kinda wish *barf!* that there were one of these 'museums' here in Florida, I really wanna go & teh stoopid scientologistists don't get out in teh ohp-in!
Posted by: tsg | July 28, 2009 3:24 PM
"I'll take 'Missing The Point' for 600, Alex."
Posted by: bobxxxx | July 28, 2009 3:26 PM
"great idea"
Actually my idea is don't go there. Don't give money to an asshole just to be a suck-up.
Posted by: Doosh | July 28, 2009 3:26 PM
Is covert homosexual behavior okay?
Posted by: Caine | July 28, 2009 3:27 PM
JanitorforChrist777 @ 64:
So I guess the countdown to the inevitable atheist violence has started.
Hahahahahahahahaha. Hahahahahaha. Haha hee heh heh *thud*
You wouldn't happen to be a Rapture Readyist, would you? Those folks indulge in persecution fantasy to a very unhealthy degree.
Posted by: Qwerty | July 28, 2009 3:31 PM
Maybe it's David Blaylock of the Creation Museum who knows where to find the lesbian masterbating over a bible t-shirts? I mean, after all, he brought it up; so, maybe...
Posted by: JanitorforChrist777 | July 28, 2009 3:31 PM
Murderer + 'e' @ 79
The parallels between Hitler and his "Youth" with P.Z. and his SSA are inescapable.
If you can't see this, you're just another blind man feeling the elephant.
Posted by: Ben in Texas | July 28, 2009 3:32 PM
David Blaylock = Paul Blart with a bible.
Posted by: tsg | July 28, 2009 3:33 PM
By that logic the Boy Scouts are nazis.
Posted by: E.V. | July 28, 2009 3:35 PM
Since "godless" clothing is out, maybe this event calls for "Godly" clothing: a mitre with robes, a stole and, of course, red Prada shoes to caper about in style. It's what the best dressed
Christian museum goersNazi popes are wearing.(don't forget thy rod & thy staff - they comfort ye)
Posted by: Dahan | July 28, 2009 3:35 PM
PZ,
If you pull this off without a major disruption being started by either an asshole amongst us or the guards there provoking something, it's going to ruin my lack of belief. It'd be an undeniable miracle.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 28, 2009 3:36 PM
Not the sharpest knife in the drawer are you?
Posted by: Hank Fox | July 28, 2009 3:37 PM
It's good this came up, so you could clarify the standards of acceptable behavior.
HOWEVER! As someone who grew up in the South among conservative Christians, let me inject a bit of healthy paranoia into the mix.
Don't rule out that there could be a disruptive setup being planned on that end. Something unwitnessed, a fight or vandalism, that could later be blamed on your group. It doesn’t even have to be the museum people who plan it. (Imagine a couple of hundred angry, vocal Christians who get bused in from local churches to spoil this for you. This is not just possible, it’s likely.)
Consider having along lots of cellphone cameras to document or liveblog everything, travel in groups instead of alone, keep an eye on each other, and if you have along a few atheists who are off-duty police officers, or perhaps obvious members of the media (with visible “Press” ID), none of those things could hurt.
Watch out for yourselves, watch out for each other, even watch out for your cars. (I wouldn’t add any blatant new bumper stickers to my car just before the visit, for instance.)
This is all a light-hearted celebration for the people going from our side. But for the people in the creationist/conservative Christian camp, the feelings at seeing you there will range from annoyance to pure hate.
Posted by: XD | July 28, 2009 3:38 PM
I've got a bad feeling about this.Posted by: Attila | July 28, 2009 3:38 PM
That is the challenge I have here. My brains filter just assumed JanitorforChrist777 was just pure sarcasm, and somewhat funny. I didn't realize it looks to be actually batshit insane after the next post.
Maybe you should move from the house at the corner of Wingnut Ave and Moonbat Lane. There seems to be some type of environmental mental health issue you were unaware of.
Just saying.
Posted by: Cylux | July 28, 2009 3:38 PM
Why keep up the pre-tense? We all know your only after a picture of yourself riding the saddled-up dino. Since it'll be THE BEST PROFILE PICTURE EVER! Seriously, wish I was going so I could get one...
Posted by: Wayfarer | July 28, 2009 3:39 PM
Anyone want to bet a cookie that you don't get past the front door.The tone of the letter left me with the feeling you are dealing with totallarin regime.Good luck and becareful around the goose steppers.
Posted by: JanitorforChrist777 | July 28, 2009 3:39 PM
The BSA is a Mormon propaganda and indoctrination wing. That's enough of a reason to shun them, but of course they're not Nazis because they don't allow atheists to join.
Posted by: overburden
|
July 28, 2009 3:40 PM
They're afraid of having their 'reality', albeit a bit of spooky one - still the foundation of their beliefs - attacked by interlopers, an invasion of overtly ambivalent, adversarial heathens - an unlike-minded psychic militia.
I'd be scared too.
They have nothing to prove by letting this event happen.
Any denial of entrance would be a win - win situation - they defend their 'sanctum' from sacrilegious vilification, while exposing their own paranoid, simplistic worldview, or something like that.
My concern is that once inside, confrontation is inevitable, and the response will be disproportionate, escalating into an absurd display of raw will, subsequently viewed globally as a radical attack on Christian virtue by a pack of godless mutts in a theme park.
Posted by: davery | July 28, 2009 3:40 PM
That letter, while correctly described as "standard," is pretty broad when laying out the rules for "we can kick you out." I think they're going to find some excuse to kick you out no matter what happens or how you act. But as PZ points out, that makes you the winners.
Wish I was going, good luck and have fun.
Posted by: Carlie | July 28, 2009 3:41 PM
I think it would be awesome if everyone showed up wearing identical black suits. Perfectly formal, perfectly appropriate, and yet unsettlingly threatening in an undefinable way.
Posted by: Hairhead | July 28, 2009 3:41 PM
I strongly recommend that each and every group led by a "counsellor" have one designated videographer who will tape continuously and without letup for the entire length of the visit. I trust the Creation Museum and their guards about as much as they trust you.
Any altercation should immediately attract the lenses of at least a dozen video cameras.
Finally, at least ten people should go in in mufti -- "civilian" clothing, paying full price, to tag along unobtrusively and watch (photo and videotape) the proceedings.
The whole trip is a great idea, but you MUST have contingencies and backup plans.
Good luck!
Posted by: SC, OM, Blogmistress | July 28, 2009 3:43 PM
I'm probably the only one hearing Principal McGee and Coach Calhoun going over the dance rules in Grease...
Posted by: Didac | July 28, 2009 3:44 PM
Sometimes I ponder what's the difference between a Creationist hooligan and an Evolutionist hooligan. One big difference is that evolution is true and creationism is not. However, most people are Evolutionist or Creationist because of so-called culture wars. So, liberals tend to favour evolutionism, and conservatives tend to favour creationism or to appease creationist with a wattered evolutionism. The same is true for Anthropogenic Global Warming. So, a bunch of evolutionist visitors to the Creation Museum are not as far as different from a bunch of creationist vistitors to any Natural History Museum.
Posted by: E.V. | July 28, 2009 3:45 PM
I hope there is an ultimate PZ/"I am Spartacus" moment when all the SSA members rally to PZ's defense when he is called front and center by a wrathful Ken Ham.
Posted by: Shinobi | July 28, 2009 3:45 PM
I hope you guys DO post 200 reviews of this farce of a museum. A good friend of mine recently was dragged to the Noah Musical in Branson, MO and because the only reviews available online were written by rabid fundamentalists he was completely unprepared for the ridiculousness that awaited him. (Did you know it'd never rained before The Great Flood? We're talking a factually inaccurate account of factually inaccurate events here.)
So write 200 reviews, and save people being dragged by their bible thumping relatives and or friends!
Posted by: Caine | July 28, 2009 3:46 PM
JanitorforChrist777 @ 81:
I'm neither a murderer or male. The name Caine has a Gaelic meaning, ya know. Not everything relates to your badly translated book of myths.
The SSA doesn't belong to PZ; this isn't Dumbledore's Army, dude. Anyway, you didn't answer me - about being a Rapture Readyist. Can't get enough wannabe persecutory porn, those folks.
Posted by: XD | July 28, 2009 3:47 PM
Ken #35
I'd never heard of "The Filth" before watching that episode of The IT Crowd, so whenever I hear their name, I automatically think of Richmond.
And what's with the "This video is not available in your country due to copyright restrictions" shit? My licence fee helped pay for that show, damnit!
Posted by: Velcro Magnon | July 28, 2009 3:50 PM
OK, OK, I won't wear my 'Darwinian Sodomite' T-shirt.
Posted by: tsg | July 28, 2009 3:50 PM
Yeah, because that's the only thing that makes them not nazis.
You're a moron.
Posted by: E.V. | July 28, 2009 3:50 PM
JanitorforChrist777 is another example of someone too stupid to know they're stupid, even if the post turns out to be a poe.
Posted by: jimbo for reason | July 28, 2009 3:52 PM
don't forget that Mr. Blaylock is also the head of the K-9 unit at AIG. If you hear him say, "Release the hounds!" you better run for it.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 28, 2009 3:53 PM
Poe or not? Poe or not? Poe or not?
The things you're typing are so incredibly stupid it's hard to take them seriously.
Posted by: Jerome Haltom | July 28, 2009 3:55 PM
Your Rights:
The only thing they have a right to do is control access to their property. They can not let you in, and they can ask you to leave. If they ask you to leave, they can walk you to the door. That's it.
They do not have a right to search your bag, but they do have a right to not let you in if you don't let them. Keep that in mind.
They do not have a right to confiscate any of your belongings. Cameras included. The most they can do is ask you to leave, and walk you to the door. You can take pictures on the way out. They can't touch you.
On the way out: they have no right to search your bag. The only thing they can prevent you from doing is entering or being there... they can't prevent you from leaving. Though refusing to allow them to do so might be 'rude', and various other things, etc.
So that's that.
Posted by: jimbo for reason | July 28, 2009 3:56 PM
maybe that's how Mr. Blaylock identifies homosexuals...the bloodhounds have been trained to identify gay people...
Posted by: JanitorforChrist777 | July 28, 2009 3:56 PM
E.V., you're obviously quite dense, I'll spell this out for you.
The reason the BSA does not ~behave~ like the Hitler Youth is precisely because they do not allow atheists to join.
No ahtiests -> no atrocities.
It's so simple even someone blinded by their own hatred for God should be able to understand it.
Posted by: raven | July 28, 2009 3:57 PM
Oh!!! I can play too!!!
Ham and the Xians might just genocide the whole lot of atheists. Like the xians did to the Albigensians during the crusades. Or catholic Hitler and his Lutheran and RCC followers did to the Jews.
But maybe they will just torch them at the stake like the xians did to tens of thousands of witches during the middle ages. Does the creation museum need a burning permit to burn witches in the summer? Maybe PZ can ask them. I would ask janitorforchrist but he would just say, "Burn them all, and let god and the fire department/EPA sort it out."
Posted by: Brock | July 28, 2009 4:00 PM
There's a pretty simple solution if an altercation breaks out (verbal or otherwise, real or staged):
Walk away.
Security can't blame the SSA if everyone associated with them just leaves the scene peacefully. Whoever is left fighting will have to be thrown out individually.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 28, 2009 4:01 PM
Who's the dense one again?
Posted by: Penguin_Factory | July 28, 2009 4:02 PM
Oh man, I wish I could go on this so badly :(
I'll have to settle for cheering at the virtual side lines.
Posted by: tsg | July 28, 2009 4:03 PM
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You might at least "spell it out for him" right.
Posted by: JanitorforChrist777 | July 28, 2009 4:04 PM
The Roman Catholics aren't Christians. You've heard of the Whore of Babylon, right? The Crusades were not Christian wars.
Thanks, but try again.
Posted by: XD | July 28, 2009 4:04 PM
Scote #57
I'll put §1000 on them drafting in some Sheriff J.W. Pepper wannabe to stomp all over the Pharyngulista's civil liberties.
Posted by: Quatguy | July 28, 2009 4:05 PM
Well said PZ. I hope you guys have fun, I wish I was going with you. Although I understand the reason and benifits of the mission, I still do not like the idea of giving money to the evil-doer (he who's name should never be spoken, but rymes with Hen Kam) which he can then use to advance his evil plans.
Posted by: AJ Milne | July 28, 2009 4:05 PM
... yep. It's terrifying, really, how the SSA have been breaking into Christian churches, shattering the altars, tearing up the bibles, beating the assembled parishioners, assisting the secret police in herding 'em all onto trains... Hellish, really...
See also this terrifying chant they're expected to intone when they turn from fourteen to fifteen:
... oh. Wait. No. That's from an actual Hitler Youth service... My apologies...
Well, anyway... Ya can see how ya'd make the mistake, I'm sure...
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
July 28, 2009 4:06 PM
No atheist hates god. That is because god doesn't exist. No atheist has enough energy to hate the non-existent. What part of that do you have trouble with?You talk about god, but your lack of physical evidence for one says you are a delusional fool, confirmed by your statement I quoted.
Posted by: Brain Hertz | July 28, 2009 4:06 PM
The "agent provocateur" possibility is definitely a significant concern. Have you considered issuing everybody in the party with identifying badges (not identifying names, just identifying them as part of the group)?
Posted by: JanitorforChrist777 | July 28, 2009 4:06 PM
Isn't pointing out typos the lowest of the low?
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 28, 2009 4:07 PM
This is either marginally well done poe or seriously stupid.
Posted by: E.V. | July 28, 2009 4:07 PM
Would that you could spell. You're funny - in a pathetic sort of way.Posted by: tsg | July 28, 2009 4:09 PM
I don't know. I'd put bigotry much farther down the list, but that's just me.
Posted by: Caine | July 28, 2009 4:10 PM
JanitorforChrist777:
No ahtiests -> no atrocities.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Hahahahahaha.
I'm not an ahtiest*. I'm an atheist, which means I don't believe in any gods, including yours. No violence or other assorted atrocities included.
*Yes, spelling counts.
Posted by: Karl Sniderman | July 28, 2009 4:10 PM
I did not read through all of the comments so I don't know whether this has been suggested.
I think that you - PZ - should order some custom made small (say 2" X 3"), irregular shaped (but all the same), brightly colored (like neon pink) cloth patches. Pass them out to everyone in your group outside the entrance and have them pinned on to clothing in some particular, perhaps unusual location. (Bring a supply of safety pins). That way if a disturbance starts, you will be able to tell whether there are provacateurs or members of your group involved. Do not reveal ahead of time any of the aspects of the patch so that they cannot be copied and passed out to non-members.
Posted by: JanitorforChrist777 | July 28, 2009 4:11 PM
If you want evidence, I have a book that has not been proved wrong in thousands of years.
You people can't even make up your minds about basic things like "what is a species" or "how old is the earth". Every time you get new "evidence" it just shows that your old theory was wrong.
Posted by: Mike Daniels | July 28, 2009 4:11 PM
PZ, great post! I'm glad you and the SSA are taking charge of the situation to ensure that your people are well-behaved and don't give legitimate reason to be Expelled.
I only wish you'd set this tone from the beginning. Unfortunately, the Creation "Museum" people have every reason to expect inappropriate behavior from the things people have posted here.
For a preview, check out John Scalzi's photo tour. http://www.flickr.com/photos/scalzi/sets/72157603091357751/ No, they're not mine. Yes, I wish they were!
Posted by: E.V. | July 28, 2009 4:11 PM
No, dealing with frothing Godwin's Law abusers like you is. Thanks again for pointing out that you're TSTKYS.Posted by: BaldySlaphead | July 28, 2009 4:11 PM
What's that? You're worried about agent provocateurs?
Want a 100% cast iron guarantee that there's no fundie infiltrators in your group?
Easy: No one gets to come in as part of the group unless they blaspheme the Holy Spirit. You'd have to do it outside of the gates, of course, but since it's an unforgivable sin, you can be sure that no Christian would be prepared to do it.
OK, yes, it is unfair on any pro-evolution Christians that might be going, but seriously, how many of them are going?
Posted by: Bruce Gorton | July 28, 2009 4:12 PM
I would suggest someone print out some stickers so that "fakers" can be seperated from the real members of the group - have some way of seperating yourselves from any fifth column types.
Everything must be filmed, and everyone must be on their best behaviour. This whole thing has massive potential to go wrong, so everyone must stay together. Realise idiots like JanitorforChrist777 are going to be there - and they are going to be just looking for an excuse to jump all over you, even if they have to make the excuse happen.
Everyone bring video cameras, every single one of you. If everyone is filming you will get a better Youtube video out of it in the end, and any shit that does get stirred, well there will be a record of it from the atheist point of view just in case.
Now, the biggest bit of advice - be Ghandi. If someone pushes you down, don't push back, just hope someone got it on tape. They spit at you, ignore it, hope someone got it on tape. If they punch you, ignore it, hope someone got it on tape. Do not fight back no matter what - keep your heads and any abuse recorded there means not simply victory, but hitting the jackpot.
Posted by: sasqwatch | July 28, 2009 4:13 PM
Posted by: SamB | July 28, 2009 2:28 PM
What, so nobody can use their Cradle of Filth 'Vestal Masturbation' (aka 'Jesus is a Cunt') T-shirt? boo
(seriously, it exists:)
Short story: was giving a scientific colleague a tour of our fine town of Colorado Springs, its moral conservatism, etc. I was just getting to the part about it having the highest influx of religious groups in the country (this was right in the middle of the California exodus), and a high level of religiosity in general, as evidenced by the God/Flag stickers and Jesus fishes on everybody's cars.
Right on cue, a pristine Mercedes pulls out in front of us with a "Jesus is a Cunt" PERMANENT ornament fixture on the back hood of the car -- and not so much as a single baseball bat dent or key scratch anywhere to be seen. Goddamn goth bastards.
Posted by: tsg | July 28, 2009 4:13 PM
Which book would that be?
Posted by: JimNorth | July 28, 2009 4:14 PM
Good Luck, y'all. I wish I could go but my face would explode simply from looking at teh stoopid. Do these guys realize that this is the 21st century and not the 12th?
Janitor - I know of three (3) atheists that have achieved high rank in the BSA of my local troop. The town has not exploded yet. You need to rethink your ---- scrap that, I don't see any evidence that you can think in the first place.
Posted by: JHS
|
July 28, 2009 4:14 PM
I'd have to agree that this sounds like the perfect opportunity for a "fifth column" scenario or, short of that, a lone museum-affiliated nut job to provoke some sort of confrontation -- and you can imagine who would be painted the aggressor should one of your group so much as say "Please stop," regardless of what Ham's lackey was doing.
That said, the video taping is a good idea, as many as possible so if something does go down, there will be no question who was doing the provoking. Also, it might be wise to stagger the smaller groups so there will never be more than 20 or so people in close proximity at once...200+ milling about in a lobby or something would make it that much easier for someone to instigate something and make it look like the entire so-called "horde" of naughty atheists were all ganging up on the poor godbot.
I look forward to reading reports, and I wish you all a safe and, er, enlightening trip. You know you're in for a doozy when they're so terrified that someone who doesn't already agree with them might actually visit their precious "museum"!
Posted by: JanitorforChrist777 | July 28, 2009 4:14 PM
Yeah, the problem with Godwin's Law (should be "Godwin's Theory" since it's something that just got pulled out of someone's behind like evolution) is that sometimes comparison to the Nazis is appropriate.
But I guess apologists like you just can't see that.
Posted by: Brian | July 28, 2009 4:15 PM
I'll be one of the people with a video camera, and was planning on being especially well-behaved. I do have a Darwin t-shirt I acquired from the Field Museum that I was planning to wear, but the wording on this letter sounds like it might be an excuse to get tossed.
A side-note: is there an address where I can send copies of the film afterwords? I'm not a tip-top editor but I figure the more footage the better, right?
Posted by: Feynmaniac | July 28, 2009 4:15 PM
Remember the Pharyngula battle cry:
YOUR CONCERN IS NOTED!!!!!!
Posted by: Karl Sniderman | July 28, 2009 4:15 PM
I just noticed that Brian Hertz #121 made essentially the same suggestion, mine is just a little more detailed, maybe a little cheaper.
Great idea Brian.
Posted by: VTStudent | July 28, 2009 4:16 PM
Come on guys, you haven't realized JanitorforChrist777 is a Poe yet?
I'm starting to lose a little faith in this community, Poes this obvious should be easy to see.
Posted by: Eamon Knight | July 28, 2009 4:16 PM
I take it back. JFC777 is batshit insane.
Posted by: E.V. | July 28, 2009 4:17 PM
The only consistency here is your willful ignorance and blindness to a bronze age assemblage of mythologies and irrelevant texts. It's full of errors and again, you've shown you're TSTKYS.Posted by: Joffan | July 28, 2009 4:18 PM
@ James #40 - If we're going to get geeky on zerg rushes...
... I think you mean additional Hatcheries, or possibly:
Posted by: tsg | July 28, 2009 4:19 PM
You do know what Poe's Law is, right?
Posted by: JanitorforChrist777 | July 28, 2009 4:19 PM
"Which book would that be?"
The one that was just proved right yet again, when it says that you scoffers, you fools, are willingly ignorant.
Anyway, I'm done with you people. Look at the comments and you'll see how rude you really are.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
July 28, 2009 4:20 PM
I don't know what book you are talking about. It isn't the holy babble, which can't make up its mind on several things, had been proven wrong on several others, and is known, for the most part, to be a work of fiction.Posted by: XD | July 28, 2009 4:20 PM
Brian #121
That's a great idea, but how would PZ or the SSA know that individuals were worthy of the badges? Anyone can say "oh yeah, I hate the
RomansCreationists already", but how can you really tell? Get the prospective anti-creationist to write "Ken Ham rapes piglets" on the museum in question? One hundred times?? With correct grammar???(if any of you are called Brian, just don't, okay? Don't.)
Posted by: Mike Daniels | July 28, 2009 4:21 PM
@ #78
Which book hasn't been proved wrong for thousands of years? The Koran? The Bhagavad Gita?
Or are you going to tell me that the sun and the moon revolve around the Earth, since they are simply lights set in the firmament?
Posted by: MikeM | July 28, 2009 4:21 PM
I do have an idea to keep them from inspecting your cars: Do not park in their parking lot. If you have to walk a block or two, go for it. But give them as little money as possible, and one way is to not use their parking lot.
You might possibly kill two birds with one stone: Make it so they cannot inspect your vehicle (and what are they going to do when they find a Beatles CD in your car?), and reduce the amount of money they get from your visit.
Someone please explain the downside of this idea to me.
Posted by: dinkum | July 28, 2009 4:22 PM
I've got a plug nickel that says this is a lie.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
|
July 28, 2009 4:22 PM
and let's not forget the four-legged insects, the flood that never happened, the return of christs which was supposed to have happened before his disciples had all died, etc. ad nauseam
Posted by: calladus | July 28, 2009 4:22 PM
I've made this suggestion before, but now is a REALLY good opportunity to create an audio tour guide for the Creation Museum.
Other museums have them - PZ and company should help the Creation Museum out here!
Posted by: FishyFred | July 28, 2009 4:22 PM
So my t-shirt that says "American University Rationalists and Atheists" is... okay? Or is that too offensive?
Posted by: AndrewB | July 28, 2009 4:23 PM
PZ seriously what about two people of the same sex holding hands? Not talking about kissing or ass grabbing or any other display of affection just two people holding hands being respectful as they walk through that shrine to stupidity.
I can't go I recently spent my money at the Page Museum in LA. That's at least a real museum.
Posted by: MartinDH | July 28, 2009 4:23 PM
JanitorforChrist @#110:
The Nazis wouldn't let atheists join the National Socialist party either. It takes a country of Christians to murder many millions of Jews, homosexuals, communists, trade unionists, atheists, gypsies and other dissenters.
Perhaps that should read: No atheists -> Know atrocities.
In the same way you don't hate Zeus, Odin, and Krishna, I don't hate your god.
--
Martin
Posted by: tsg | July 28, 2009 4:23 PM
In absence of an answer, I will assume you mean the bible and point out that the people who believe in it can't even agree on what it says, and also that it proves itself wrong numerous times by being self-contradictory. Not that you've ever read it....
Says the idiot whose very first post was to call atheists nazis.
Fuck off, moron.
Posted by: Brian | July 28, 2009 4:23 PM
@150
If I remember correctly, the "museum" is off the expressway and is pretty much the only building in the area. I don't think walking from another lot would be an option.
Posted by: E.V. | July 28, 2009 4:23 PM
Don't tempt me janitor4X. As many here know, I can get much ruder.
Posted by: XD | July 28, 2009 4:24 PM
Carlie #95
And V for Vendetta masks.
Posted by: Mike Daniels | July 28, 2009 4:26 PM
Carpooling with vans from the university would be even better. They're public property.
Posted by: Marta West | July 28, 2009 4:27 PM
I'm gonna have to practice how NOT to roll my eyes when I see & hear all these infantile, ignorant, blind, bronze age, mentally retarded ,child mental abusers,dark age lovers BS and their threat to the 2009 scientific advances never mind it's the USA the #1 world leader of science!
We keep this going and for sure we'll be living our own CHRISTIAN "Sharia" LAW.
But I'll be good and behave as the good non-christian atheist I've always been.
Posted by: Logicel | July 28, 2009 4:28 PM
Blaylock obviously is being a good Christian. Though he is setting clear guidelines, he feels he is welcoming the enemy. That's what brain-dead (the creationist sort), good Christians do.
Now on the other hand, atheists are good (and certainly not brain-dead, so use your brains) also. They can consent to following the set guidelines (otherwise they should not go, for example I would have to opt out, because I would be at first laughing so hard at their inanity, closemindedness, fanaticism, and anti-science propaganda which would then trigger my showing disgust and anger at their benighted and dangerous stupidity that I would run a risk of mouthing off at these Creationist fruitcakes).
Discipline only works if it is 100%. So all of you going need to be focused on following PZs outline. If you can't do what he is delineating, please do not go. For the ones that are psychologically equipped to go, have fun with describing the crapola that you will see at this joke of a museum on your blogs. And your opponents can't accuse you of criticizing an Creationist 'museum' without visiting it. I am looking forward to your excellent critiques.
As for atheists paying to see this crap, it is not like they will be contributing any major amount of money to the operation of this museum of merde.
Posted by: Karey | July 28, 2009 4:29 PM
They're on a witchunt. PZ jokingly calls the pharyngulite crowd a horde or mob and they're quote mining him as if to prove they should be worried about this.
I also love how of all the profane suggestions of behavior commenters make around here, the one they freak out about is wearing godless clothing.
Posted by: Patricia, OM | July 28, 2009 4:30 PM
When I was a child about to leave on an outing my grandmother would always give me this advice: Have fun honey, and make us proud. Kinda corny, but it will work this time too.
Posted by: Jud | July 28, 2009 4:32 PM
"Try not to emulate Hitler too much. Your killing of Jews will not be tolerated at God's museum."
As someone who had many family members die at the hands of Hitler's minions, I have a reference to politely and sincerely suggest to you:
http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1248812878&sr=8-1
The Holocaust Museum is another excellent source of knowledge regarding how Nazism interacted with the overwhelmingly Christian membership of the Nazi party itself and the overwhelmingly Christian populations of the nations where the Holocaust was formulated and carried out.
How interesting that my soft answer is given in answer to your wrath. According to the Book you so frequently cite, isn't it you who are supposed to be engaging in soft answers?
Posted by: Brock | July 28, 2009 4:32 PM
It's silly to all dress the same, because atheists aren't part of some larger group that dictates lifestyle choices (like mormons with their special underwear or muslims with burkas).
Might as well be yourself, dress like yourself, and act responsible for yourself just like you (hopefully) do all the time anyway. I don't see how the SSA changes any of that.
Posted by: Marta West | July 28, 2009 4:33 PM
Yeah all looking like " Men in Black"
I'm taking my 3 kids ( 12/6 & 2 ) plus husband...it'll be cute to see kids & baby dressed up all in black also we should all take dark glasses ( a good way to hide the rolling of the eyes )
I vote for this !
Posted by: Caine | July 28, 2009 4:33 PM
JanitorforChrist777:
I have a book that has not been proved wrong in thousands of years.
How much do you know about King James?
Posted by: Benjamin Geiger | July 28, 2009 4:34 PM
Two words:
Certified Mail. Prove that they've received whatever you sent.
It wouldn't be beneath them to reject the SSA group due to lack of "written assurance".
Posted by: Chayanov | July 28, 2009 4:36 PM
Oh, I wish I was going. Although I'm fully expecting to hear that the whole thing turned out to be an "Expelled" moment, when they see the 200+ of you and freak out, refusing to allow any of you inside. And really, won't that be much more fun to write about later on?
Posted by: Arnold T Pants | July 28, 2009 4:36 PM
Janitor @ 128
You mean the one with the two contradictory creation stories? The bible has consistency problems five minutes in, yet you claim inerrancy. No. You fail to understand how science works. We admit that we don't know all the answers. We fine tune, amend, or completely scrap our theories as we receive more and better data. You, on the other hand, come to your conclusions based on translations of the writings of bronze-age shepherds and dismiss any evidence that doesn't match.Posted by: Bruce Gorton | July 28, 2009 4:37 PM
JanitorforChrist777
You mean the Nazis, who were mostly protestant and Catholic Christians, who attempted to establish a state religion (Positive Christianity) and who opposed evolution being taught in schools?
And here is the thing about the "Hitler youth" you moron, the "Hitler youth" were children. They were under the age of 16, they were Hitler's idea for getting kids out of the cities and into the countryside (Hitler, much like the Republican Party in the US, was all about the romance of rural values), the equivelant seriously would be the fucking Boy Scouts.
If you are going to throw around historical analogies you could at least remove your shoulder mounted penis from your ass long enough to read up on what you are talking about.
Posted by: HombreMoleculos | July 28, 2009 4:39 PM
I googled "naked lesbian masturbating with bibles shirt" and the only thing that was even close was Pharyngula. Someone has to start making these shirts.
Posted by: Chayanov | July 28, 2009 4:39 PM
Not to mention that all of the accounts of the Resurrection are contradictory. They can't even get the supposedly eyewitness details of that event straight.
Posted by: uberlieder | July 28, 2009 4:41 PM
I love how JanitorforChrist777 talks about how the BSA is a good program because it doesn't allow atheists when I got through it (getting my eagle) and yet skipping every single chapel service and making it blatantly clear I am an atheist.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 28, 2009 4:43 PM
#95
I like your stylePosted by: E.V. | July 28, 2009 4:47 PM
YOU WOULDN'T DARE WEAR A T-SHIRT WITH LESBIANS MASTURBATING WITH THE KORAN!!!
(It was only a matter of time before someone said it)
Posted by: tsg | July 28, 2009 4:49 PM
The first chapel service I skipped was the last time I did anything with the BSA. I wasn't kicked out, but they made it clear I wasn't wanted there.
Posted by: Bruce Gorton | July 28, 2009 4:52 PM
JanitorforChrist777:
I have a book that has not been proved wrong in thousands of years.
Exodus. The Egyptians recorded the various events in their pharoahs' lives - yet outside of the Biblical account there is no record of the plagues, no record of the slaves getting away, no record of the pharoah in question, no record of Moses parting the Red Sea. In fact, the documents recovered from that era show that Exodus, one of the first events that could have been written down, never actually happened.
Posted by: cltdba | July 28, 2009 4:52 PM
I'm signed up and ready to go! Can't wait for August 7th!
Posted by: eruvande | July 28, 2009 4:53 PM
Jud, you're a classy person. I'd like to shake your hand.
JFC (absent or not), I'm not going to kid myself thinking that you have a scrap of sympathy or kind thought for Jews, seeing as how they're all supposed to die so that your Prince of Peace (*giggle*) can return to pick you all up. You're not only a fool, you're willfully ignorant, which should be a crime.
Posted by: MikeM | July 28, 2009 4:56 PM
@158
You're right, I mapped it... I'm sort of used to these things being located in urban areas. Man, that thing is in a corn field.
Just looked at the Trip Advisor reviews of the place, too. AFTER the visit, I hope that thing gets Pharyngulated. Four stars out of five just has to be about four stars too many.
I hope everyone can get to the petting zoo and the planetarium, too. Frack, I'm so jealous.
Janitor, my own son is in a BSA troop right now. It's associated with a Buddhist church. He's already an avowed atheist. His troop leaders are aware of this. So there.
Posted by: Paul KLussmann | July 28, 2009 4:56 PM
Oh Oh!! PZ has a plan A in effect but lacks a Plan B if it fails...c'mon folks....lets give him some help since many of us are doubtful plan A will work.
Hmmmm...how about a song fest in the parking lot with printed words for all to sing good atherist songs...like IMAGINE.
Other plan B's anyone?????
Posted by: Ian A. A. Watson
|
July 28, 2009 4:57 PM
@MartinDH #156:
Actually, I do. Zeus owes me $5 from that one time we all ordered pizza, but he said he didn't bring his wallet.
Posted by: cag | July 28, 2009 4:58 PM
JFC777, I don't understand. I thought that janitors cleaned up shit instead of spreading it.
Posted by: Nichole | July 28, 2009 4:59 PM
Everyone's suggesting stickers or scraps of cloth? Six Flags achieves this goal with hand stamps, y'know. Ones you can only see under a black light? Perfect opportunity for your bible-defiling lesbians graphic. You can be obscene and polite at the same time!
Or a squid or whatever. Let's pretend we're gonna do the lesbian thing, so any infiltrators will have lesbians on their hand and then you'll know if they faked it!
Crap, I let the secret out, didn't I?
(._.)
Posted by: James F | July 28, 2009 4:59 PM
Joffan #144,
I appreciate the geek peer review! So what would the proper context be for "you must construct additional pylons?" 'Cause I wanna work that into future posts.
Posted by: Margaret's Cat
|
July 28, 2009 5:03 PM
Film everything continuously so they can't get away with accusing PZ's ilk of starting anything.
And somebody stay in the parking lot with a camera to prevent and/or film any vandalism of cars with Darwin fish.
Posted by: RobertDW | July 28, 2009 5:04 PM
Actually, I thought the letter was pretty reasonable.
This is a large group tour. Large groups do get extra notice from security - if nothing else, security gets involved in making sure (for example) that there is sufficient parking, that the group can assemble outside conveniently, that they can get tickets without preventing other visitors from having to wait a long time, that they can proceed through the site as a group (or a series of smaller groups) without it being disruptive just from the numbers, etc...
Given the overall negative tone towards the Creation Museum shown here, the security guys have a right to suspect that this visit isn't an innocent sight-seeing tour. I wouldn't be surprised if they regularly eject people from the museum for engaging in protest acts along the lines described above. What this letter is about is giving notice: do not be offensive or disruptive (by their standards!), or do not expect to get in.
Very little of the acts listed are surprising. What, a "museum" dedicated to right-wing bible fundamentalist beliefs doesn't approve of two guys holding hands? I'm shocked!
The one part of the letter that does go over the line is the bit about "exchanges" on this site, and how it compares to "exchanges" with the SSA. That's over the line because this site is not a direct communication with the Creation Museum. I'm sure that PZ would be polite (which most people confuse as being the same as being respectful) in any direct communication.
Still, all this letter does is confirm what we should have been able to guess - the Creation Museum doesn't like our kind, and while they can't stop you visiting outright, they can (and are) looking for excuses. Preferably ones they can invoke AFTER you have bought your (non-refundable) tickets.
Posted by: Brock | July 28, 2009 5:06 PM
Ok, I'll reiterate:
A. Park elsewhere.
B. Anything bad happens, walk away.
Caution is fine, but I don't see the need for paranoia.
Posted by: Joffan | July 28, 2009 5:08 PM
James #188
Actually it's more appropriate in a way... pylons are for the Protoss and their mass-attack is a Zealot rush...
Posted by: Brian | July 28, 2009 5:08 PM
@191
Just clarifying, but parking elsewhere really isn't an option. It's pretty much the only thing off the exit.
Posted by: Mixter | July 28, 2009 5:11 PM
Gosh. We sound so SCARY, don't we? Really, isn't the intent to go witness the crazy spectacle, roll our eyes, snicker a bit, have a good time in Bizarro-World and then have something to reflect upon (all sorts of crazy) and report about after the fact? That was my plan, anyway. I wasn't planning on bringing a megaphone...
Mixter
Posted by: Sigmund | July 28, 2009 5:11 PM
"all packages, bags, and articles may be subject to inspection when on the premises or when entering or leaving the premises."
Is that a triceratops wearing a saddle in your pocket, or are you just pleased to see me?
Posted by: Cheryl | July 28, 2009 5:14 PM
I am begging everyone to be on their best behavior as well. I will not be attending and want to experience the pleasure of this visit vicariously. The fact that Blaylock (I do know of him) sent this letter means they are prepared to take action against the group with the slightest provocation. Please don't give them any. I have been on the other side of things like this and they will try to make any little thing a reason to throw you out - and have you arrested. That will be the main goal - to have as many of you arrested, especially PZ, as possible. The police will be on their side. Just please be careful.
Posted by: E.V. | July 28, 2009 5:15 PM
Can't you just picture all the horrified Creation Museum secretaries crowded around the monitor this very minute reading every word we post as we post it...
The Horde is coming!(cue ominous music)
Posted by: Steve | July 28, 2009 5:20 PM
Ken Ham needs to keep the money flowing. Anything that interferes with that is to be feared. I think PZ is right, though. The worst you can do is disrupt this fool for a day. Let us all know what you thought.
Posted by: Stu
|
July 28, 2009 5:23 PM
Given the overall negative tone towards the Creation Museum shown here
If you don't want to be ridiculed, don't be ridiculous. Works every time.
Posted by: cicely
|
July 28, 2009 5:24 PM
I wouldn't be at all surprised if some attempt isn't made to 'provoke' behavior or comments they would consider disrespectful, to provide themselves with an excuse to make a big, hairy media fuss, and with big, hairy, right-wing extremist media on hand for the purpose.
I know there would be if I were DMing it.
Posted by: NeverTheTwain | July 28, 2009 5:28 PM
PZ, I read your post carefully for signs of the extremism, incivility, rudeness, unreason and disrespectfulness for which you are renowned, and found instead calmness, humor, blunt honesty and politeness. Where is the head-spinning, bile-spewing rhetoric we have been assured is your hallmark? Where is the advocacy of mindless abuse, knee-jerk ridicule and limitless offensiveness that is your defining characteristic?
Wait. I think I understand. Given the timing, such a profound change in attitude and demeanor can only mean that you have established a constructive, bridge-building dialog with the savants over at The Intersection ("Where Ego meets Obliviousness"). From the Twins you have at last learned the importance of temperance, holding hands, and air kisses for all. Yes?
No? But that would mean the Twins were wrong about you all along, which is ridiculous. They wrote a chapter about people like you in their book. Ask them; they'll tell you: "We wrote a book," they'll say. "You should read it."
Posted by: Salad Is Slaughter | July 28, 2009 5:29 PM
Would a person be allowed to wear their Evolution Amber Ale tee shirt? Strictly speaking, it's about beer, not science.
Posted by: Stu
|
July 28, 2009 5:30 PM
Ask them; they'll tell you: "We wrote a book," they'll say. "You should read it."
Win.
Posted by: Gorogh | July 28, 2009 5:37 PM
Mhm I do not know if a visit is actually such a great idea. What is there to win (except to sate one's curiosity, or to successfully show off) - surely, there is little to learn at that place. No one is really going to be impressed, or have a different opinion of atheists if all goes well.
On the other hand, if someone steps out of the line and starts not "to conduct themselves in a polite, respectful manner", ignorant people might deem this as behavior representative of the atheists' supposed lack of morals. It is even conceivable that some fundie idiot will try to join the group undercover and start screaming atheist obscenities just to ruin everyone else's reputation. But that might be paranoid.
Of course, that's just thinking out "loudly" - because then again, "to have fun" sounds like a sufficient reason to visit anyway.
Posted by: Rob W | July 28, 2009 5:37 PM
Your response (here) was appropriate, PZ. I work at a real museum, and I can tell you that security will take this situation very seriously--and they do have authority over your group, within reason. As you pointed out, the group must not give them an excuse to call the police. They would be well within their rights should the group get rowdy or disturb other patrons.
Good luck. Be safe everyone. Wish I could join you.
Posted by: ed | July 28, 2009 5:42 PM
Wish I could go sounds like fun.The hardest part would be trying not to lol.My luck I would be followed around by some moron like the janitor,tell him to go fuck himself,get kicked out and piss off PZ! Good luck to all and looking forward to hearing all about it.
Posted by: minus | July 28, 2009 5:43 PM
Impossible for me to come to the event. But, if I were going, here's how I would dress. Black dress shoes, white socks, shorts, fishing hat with an NRA button, and a t-shirt that says "Jesus Loves Me," I would carry a camera, get there early, stay away from the PZ crowd and film everything. Infiltration can work both ways, dontcha know.
Posted by: Brian | July 28, 2009 5:45 PM
Almost forgot-
I've been to the creation "museum" before (it was hilarious). Everyone who's going is probably going to want a photo-op in front of this gem:
http://i30.tinypic.com/f3fexd.jpg
Posted by: Art | July 28, 2009 5:45 PM
So the drunken singalong reenactment of "The Life of Brian" (complete with props and sound effects), the burning of Ken Ham in effigy (it was originally conceptualized as a combined burning/raping of Ham in effigy but our medical experts advised we could do one or the other but not both),and group fornication with and on the rubber animatronic dinosaurs, is pretty much out. You really know how to ruin a good time.
Posted by: owlbear1 | July 28, 2009 5:47 PM
"...you urge the group to wear "godless clothing."
They aren't going to let you in the door and there is the "reason" why.
Posted by: cicely
|
July 28, 2009 5:49 PM
@116:
"The Roman Catholics aren't Christians."
Well, JfX777, neither are you, by the standards of some other groups of Christians. The umbrella is large, but y'll can't agree on which sects get shoved out into the rain.
Posted by: Kevan | July 28, 2009 5:51 PM
The point is not that the organization doesn't like your "kind," or that they don't want you to visit. They do like you and they do want you to visit, but you have to be nice.
Posted by: Prince of Dorkness
|
July 28, 2009 5:52 PM
Slightly off topic... but if calling us a Horde is a problem, maybe we should call ourselves an Alliance. (Small World of Warcraft reference, but what the hell.)
Posted by: Robster, FCD | July 28, 2009 5:58 PM
Aren't these the people with the advertisements where a kid is pointing a gun at the camera, caption saying something like "If you don't care about god, neither does he"?
They really think we are evil and will harm them. They really believe their own stories.
That said, I'll be there, camera in hand. PZ, it will be nice to finally meet you in person.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
|
July 28, 2009 5:59 PM
Alliance has more immature jerks in it, though, or so I hear.
Posted by: Kobra | July 28, 2009 5:59 PM
HA! They said nothing about "overtly bisexual." Threesomes, go!
I'm kidding, of course. Have fun, conduct yourselves well, and remember to ask questions that make them look ridiculous.
Posted by: Robocop | July 28, 2009 6:00 PM
I think that PZ is right -- accommodationism is the way to go.
With respect to denying entry, I doubt it will happen. A couple of hundred paying customers are a priority, no matter how evil. That said, once that (non-refundable) fee is paid, they probably won't hesitate to throw people out. Of course, there is still money to be made in the snack bar and the gift shop....
Posted by: Ken Cope | July 28, 2009 6:01 PM
"...you urge the group to wear "godless clothing."
Since there is no such thing as a god or gods, it's hard to imagine what could be meant by "godly clothing." Would that be the sort of outfit folks are expected to wear during The Rapture? Perhaps a sort of Mt. Olympus casual, togas and sandals, as if off to wish everybody an early, "Io, Io, Saturnalia!" perhaps? It may be that a request to clarify the museum's explicit dress policy is in order...
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | July 28, 2009 6:04 PM
quickfixI have a T-shirt with a picture of a naked woman masturbating with a copy of Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. I've never been sure she was a lesbian, though.
Posted by: tom riddle | July 28, 2009 6:06 PM
This is awesome, I eagerly await your visit to a Native American museum, and the report of your after-party mocking of their culture and beliefs. Hilarious!
Posted by: HarmlessEccentric | July 28, 2009 6:06 PM
200 is a LOT of people. More than most of the Christian schools who take tours there. There's a very real chance that this is the biggest single group that's ever toured together. I don't think it's unreasonable for the security person to find out to what degree you're likely to be engaging in an actual protest. I didn't love the "provocative, overtly homosexual" line- except that there are people who think it's funny to make out in front of the fundies, and I personally think that's tacky. Making out in a museum is not generally considered in good taste for homos OR hets.
As for crowd control: I'm a junior high school teacher, is that close enough? If I were organizing this thing, I'd divide the group into sub-groups of 15 or 20 and stagger their entrances by five minutes or so. That'll make it easier for the tour-group members to see the museum without being crowded by each other, make it easier on the museum staff, and decrease the likelihood of 'incidents'. Overcrowding leads to bad behavior, and many adults aren't as different from 12-year-olds as we'd like to think. I'd make a point of inviting smaller groups and families who just were unlucky enough to visit on the same day to jump in line ahead of the group where it's appropriate- acts of kindness are always classy and people you've been nice to at the gate might be less likely to get verbally hostile with you inside.
Just my five cents' worth. I live nearby but can't join in since (a) I'm out of town, and (b) I'm not actually an atheist, just a skeptical Christian, so I'm not sure whether I'm invited.
Posted by: Paul | July 28, 2009 6:07 PM
As I recall, it was "if god doesn't matter to him, do you?". Real classy stuff.
Posted by: Joshewah
|
July 28, 2009 6:08 PM
Wish I had found out about this sooner. >_
Posted by: OrbitalMike
|
July 28, 2009 6:10 PM
A question (plus some)
Question: I have a new license plate issued by the State of Ohio that reads "NO GODS" and I will be driving that there. Is that considered offensive and will I be turned away?
@#168 I will also have my 11 year old boy with me who can't believe "grown-ups" like Ken Ham are so ignorant.
Everyone, please don't assume that all parents with children there will be from the church or bible camp crowd. I want to see the rational crowd act rationally.
We both will be wearing something with a Science motif. And both my son and I will have our cameras with us to document the entire "show".
Oh, and if anyone needs a ride up to Columbus, let me know. I've got room for one more.
Posted by: Kobra | July 28, 2009 6:12 PM
I suspect there is a high probability of a creotard plant infiltrating the ranks of the godless. I propose the SSA requires each attendee take the Blasphemy Challenge before they receive their ticket, just in case.
"Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." - Mark 3:29
Let's use their delusional bullshit against them. "I hereby deny the delusion of the Holy Spirit," will suffice.
Posted by: HarmlessEccentric | July 28, 2009 6:13 PM
PS: If I were going, I think I would wear my "God made me gay" T-shirt. That's not offensive, right? There are no naked lesbians on it.
Posted by: Danny | July 28, 2009 6:16 PM
how could one masturbate with a bible?
with a crucifix, yes. But a bible?
Posted by: K | July 28, 2009 6:16 PM
Frankly the whole idea is stupid.
You're giving money to whackaloons to promote their flavor of whackalunacy.
If you persist in this foolishness, at the least, write, "Atheist," on your money or file it with Where's George to see if it's spent at the local whackaloon ho-house afterward.
http://www.wheresgeorge.com/
http://www.lava.net/~hcssc/godlessmoney.html
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
|
July 28, 2009 6:17 PM
I'm thinking that "Buddy Jesus" shirts are okay, then!
Oh wait...that's Catholic....
Posted by: tsg | July 28, 2009 6:20 PM
If they were trying to push the beliefs as science, damned right we would.
Posted by: Terry | July 28, 2009 6:21 PM
I bet they don't let you in, no matter how civil the group is. Would it be illegal to place a bet on this?
Posted by: Attila | July 28, 2009 6:21 PM
Posted by: trombus grigsbee | July 28, 2009 6:21 PM
I've never been part of a horde. I think everyone should wear Hawaiian shirts. Everyone would be easily recognized and non-offensive. However, if we are "expelled," maybe we should move onto Big Bone Lick State Park (which is "the birthplace of American Palaeontology" . . . mammoths, giant sloths, etc. Jefferson sent Clark there to rummage around). And it is less than 15 miles away.
Posted by: Kobra | July 28, 2009 6:23 PM
@231:
It does happen, although on a much much MUCH smaller scale. My uncle (homophobic conservative pentecostal asshole) listens to Native American Christian Gospel music and yammers on about borderline homeopathy. I just roll my eyes and hope he gets cancer so he can learn the consequences of delusional bullshit firsthand.
Posted by: Kobra | July 28, 2009 6:25 PM
Call me "Failure Incarnate." My previous post was supposed to point to #230. I don't know what the hell I was thinking when I typed 231. I probably need to restructure my mental for() loops.
Posted by: Monkeyman8 | July 28, 2009 6:25 PM
@ 213 - or we could call ourselves a mob and see if they try to kite us around the premises (now that's a WOW reference, from someone that doesn't play)
Man I really wish I could go. I'd bring a camcorder, a box of un-sanctified communion wafers, a box of cheezits (incase I get hungry) and random atheist paraphenelia (the god delusion GOD IS not GREAT, darwin fish, etc) to keep in my bag in case of a search.
Posted by: Osthato | July 28, 2009 6:27 PM
@ #134
That would be the Kama Sutra
Posted by: calladus | July 28, 2009 6:29 PM
Tom, there are already groups that do this. I believe they call 'em "Christians".
Posted by: TheVirginian | July 28, 2009 6:30 PM
LiarForChrist777 (aka Janitor, etc.)
The Nazis were mostly Christians; their platform included making Germany a Christian nation, in the traditional sense of that phrase (no non-Christians allowed as being a corrupting influence - hence the Holocaust); they collected a church tax and paid it to the churches; and they hated "atheism" and "atheists," by which they meant church-state separation, freethinkers, political liberals, communists and Jews, supposedly the ultimate source of church-state separation, communism and immorality in general.
So, tell me again how Boy Scouts cannot be Nazis? (I'm not saying Boy Scouts ARE Nazis, only that, contrary to what LiarForJesus777 said, a Nazi could be a Boy Scout in good standing, but an atheist cannot.) Remember, Hitler died as a Roman Catholic in good standing with his church.
Posted by: Caine | July 28, 2009 6:36 PM
tom riddle @ 220:
Creationists are hardly a culture; they certainly aren't a race. If creationists kept their irrational beliefs (and saddled dinos) to themselves, it wouldn't be that major of a deal. Wacky, but not a big deal.
Creationists are insistent they are right; they insist on passing off their nonsense as scientifically valid, and they keep pushing to have said shit taught in public schools. They deserve every bit of mockery which comes their way. In this case, the mockery which will take place after the tour and away from the so-called museum.
Posted by: Hypatia's Daughter | July 28, 2009 6:38 PM
#201 NeverTheTwain
Gee, if you think THAT is civil, you should HEAR PZ. I have listened to several of his audio interviews & talks where he is the most pleasant, soft-spoken, kind and even-handed wuss I have ever heard. (And I mean wuss in a nice way.)
Sadly, because PZ is very out-spoken and does not back down from controversial opinions, he has been tarred as uncompromising and abusive.
Now, his blog minions - well, they do live up t PZ's bad, but undeserved, reputation. (May the FSM bless their little hearts.... ;>) )
PZ's only crime is he doesn't censor his posters for foul language and angry outbursts. You can disagree with that policy; you can also choose not to go on his blog.
Unfortunately, I have no choice as I have become addicted to my daily dose of Pharyngula.
Posted by: Faid | July 28, 2009 6:42 PM
It seems very likely to me that they'll throw you out anyway, you know. They'll simply interpret a smile or a soft laugh among you as "destructive, obscene or abusive behavior" and ask you to leave.
Also, it's quite possible they'll demand to search all your belongings, to see whether you're carrying any recorders or cameras, and keep anyone who refuses outside.
That's all a guess of course, but it seems to me like they'll probably keep about a third of you outside from the start, trying to get the rest to refuse to enter in protest. And if that doesn't work, they'll keep intimidating you, trying to control your behavior and actions inside, until you'll either have to behave like subdued sheep, without talking or gesturing, or leave in anger and flustration. They think they win either way.
But as I said, it's just a guess, from having seen the dishonest tactics of YECs before. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see.
Posted by: ThatOtherGuy | July 28, 2009 6:44 PM
I really do half expect massive turnouts of christians bussed in specifically for the purpose of being disruptive and preventing the atheists from getting in or staying in... I also think the chances of their being an incident caused by a fifth column is pretty damn good, if not certain.
Posted by: Crux Australis | July 28, 2009 6:44 PM
Nicely put, Doc. Godsdamn, I wish I could go. Have fun!
Posted by: Eamon Knight | July 28, 2009 6:45 PM
@239:
Yeah, the whole Naziatheism thing is stupid, and the dirty work was carried out by good Lutherans (following Luther's own advice) and Catholics, etc, etc.
However, I am reasonably sure this is nonsense:
Remember, Hitler died as a Roman Catholic in good standing with his church.
1) From what I have seen (OK, Wikipedia) Hitler did not attend Mass or Confession as an adult. AFAIK, this makes him by definition a "lapsed" Catholic. Those things ain't optional.
2) Hitler died by suicide -- a big no-no in Catholicism. As in: Go to Hell, go directly to Hell, do not pass Purgatory, do not collect grace or forgiveness.
The Vatican did some shabby deals with the Nazi devil, back in the day, but that doesn't necessarily imply approval of Der Fuehrer's personal religiosity.
Posted by: Neandergal | July 28, 2009 6:45 PM
That is hilarious! "t-shirts with naked lesbians masturbating with bibles will give them an excuse to throw you out, so don't do it."
What about if the t-shirt has straight women masturbating with bibles. Is that ok?! I don't want to offend!
Posted by: Carlie | July 28, 2009 6:49 PM
What if you're a lesbian masturbating with a bible while wearing a t-shirt?
Posted by: Robster, FCD | July 28, 2009 6:56 PM
Look, before anybody takes this too far, be careful not to give yourself papercuts while masturbating with any book.
Posted by: Ken Cope | July 28, 2009 6:59 PM
What if you're a lesbian masturbating with a bible while wearing a t-shirt?
Then you'll be having lots more fun than Ken Ham dares to imagine, which is all good clean fun, until somebody gets a paper cut.
Posted by: Dahan | July 28, 2009 7:05 PM
"lesbians masturbating with a bible"?
What, they cant afford a Kindle?
Posted by: Xenophanes | July 28, 2009 7:07 PM
I have been there before and they encourage pictures and video recording. I will definitely have mine.
Posted by: James F | July 28, 2009 7:08 PM
The SSA and Pharyngulite hordes descend upon the Creation Museum (David Blaylock version).
Posted by: Kitty'sBitch | July 28, 2009 7:12 PM
Moron #220
"This is awesome, I eagerly await your visit to a Native American museum, and the report of your after-party mocking of their culture and beliefs. Hilarious!"
Yeah,as soon as we start trying to force our mythology on you and your children, I invite you all to do so.
In the meantime my Native American ass is off to the creation "museum" with PZ.
Posted by: Robin Carlson | July 28, 2009 7:18 PM
Would anyone like to show up with Bible verses on their shirts instead? I mean, all the Bible verses that are really awful and that christians like to gloss over.
I would like to wear a shirt that has Matthew 6: 5-6 on it.
Posted by: kamaka | July 28, 2009 7:29 PM
Kitty @ 253
Hahaha, thanks for the laugh.
"Busloads of christers." Westborough? Wouldn't we be havin' fun then.
You want to do creepy and civil? Total silence, no one says a word, just walk through in silence. I know it ain't gonna happen, but it would creep them out.
Posted by: Arnold T Pants | July 28, 2009 7:29 PM
Landover Baptist can help here:
http://www.cafepress.com/landoverbaptist/75553
Posted by: Lynna | July 28, 2009 7:33 PM
When lesbians masturbate with a bible, they do so only while also eating bacon.
I'm sure Rev BDC already knows this, but I thought I should inform the rest of you.
Posted by: Qwerty | July 28, 2009 7:41 PM
All the comments of Hitler and Nazis remind me of other things.
We should remember the recent incident at the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC when a religious nut shot and killed a guard.
Although I doubt any of the SSA visitors mean harm to anyone at the Creation Museum; it is prudent for a security person to take precautions with visitors who may be hostile.
That said, the mention of Hitler also reminded me of the exhibition of "degenerate art" that was shown during the Nazi regime in Germany. I remember seeing a PBS program about this exhibition in which it was stated that art is a lie that says something truthful about those portrayed. I can't help but think that the Nazis didn't like the truth as portrayed by the modern art they condemned.
The Creation Museum, if you look at it as art, is a lie that says something about its creators. They cannot face the overwhelming thought that we are just the products of random chance. So, they erect this huge lie that confirms "the truth" as they believe it.
This would be okay, but they want to foist their version of "the truth" on our children in our schools even though the majority in this country prefer to keep religion and religious beliefs out of the classroom.
Posted by: jpf | July 28, 2009 7:44 PM
Robster@#214:
That would be this page on Answers In Genesis:
According to their rhetoric, evolutionists are murderers waiting to happen.
Also, PZ:
I guarantee you that a Darwin fish will be "considered offensive to [their] staff and others at the museum" and will be used as an excuse for expulsion and/or evidence of how uncivil atheists are. It may be light humor to us, but to them it is a mockery of a sacred symbol.
Posted by: Attila | July 28, 2009 7:45 PM
What about wearing a nice Bible verse T-shirt since:
So maybe this T-shirt might be good:
http://www.cafepress.com/landoverbaptist.38637566
Of course if you where this T-shirt as a guy you might get charged with false advertising.
The only shame is it is probably too late to order. Although if the museum wants to throw you out they have to do with the logic that some Bible verses are inappropriate for the museum.
Posted by: Meh | July 28, 2009 7:45 PM
Blast...I guess that's my "Brown Ring Thing" shirt out the window then...
Posted by: Stephanie | July 28, 2009 7:45 PM
I so wish I could be there with you all, have a good and peaceful day my fellow godless peeps.
Posted by: Attila | July 28, 2009 7:53 PM
Good point about the Darwin fish T-shirt being offensive. Just in case we might want to have some mundane clothing just to change, just in case.
Interesting the people pointing out that they want to take our camera's. Can they do that unless they forbid all photography in the museum for EVERYBODY. Otherwise isn't that smack of religious discrimination and actionable. (Or would that be non-religious discrimination.)
Posted by: AndrewB | July 28, 2009 7:57 PM
Will yelling out "Leroy Jenkins!" get you kicked out?
Posted by: MadScientist | July 28, 2009 7:57 PM
Don't forget: no homosexual sex in the museum - don't even try in the toilets, they've probably got cameras and Big Brudda is watching!
Posted by: Robster, FCD | July 28, 2009 7:58 PM
Thanks, jpf. As of now, I'll be wearing either my "I like Chemistry" shirt or my college's orientation shirt that requests questions.
How about having some stickers printed up by the SSA with Darwin on them? The stickers would let us stick together (heh) and pick out fakers. Also, what about having a scientist in each tour group? Or at least a copy of the talkorigins book.
It might be worthwhile to bring books like these to use to rebut claims from the creationists. These would certainly be more immediately useful than God Isn't Great. Thoughts?
I'll try to have a sharpie so we can write our handles on any badges/my name is stickers we have.
Posted by: cicely
|
July 28, 2009 7:58 PM
Tom Riddle @ 220:
Clearly, I've missed something. When did any Native American tribe or organization insist that all sciences must defer to their particular set of creation stories, or that our contemporary American culture must be based on their traditions and histories? When did they demand that their indigenous religious beliefs must be uniquely favored in American laws and customs?
Posted by: Seer | July 28, 2009 8:06 PM
WANTED: Two female lesbians who wouldn't mind posing naked while masterbating with a bible. Image will be used for T-shirts. Payment: 2 t-shirts.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 28, 2009 8:10 PM
"with a crucifix, yes. But a bible?"
Thanks for finally pointing out that, blasphemous though it may be, masturbating with a Bible is utterly impractical. I was beginning to think I was the only one who CARED about these things, SHEESH.
Posted by: E.V. | July 28, 2009 8:11 PM
A silhouetted "Velociraptor and Stegosaurus wearing saddles" t-shirt with WWJR* as a caption.
*(what would Jesus ride?)
{hint: neither - he'd go for the Rhamphorhynchus}
Posted by: rooter | July 28, 2009 8:16 PM
@#10, #19
Everybody should wear something alike which is kept secret until visiting day so any agents provocateurs stick out.
Posted by: Attila | July 28, 2009 8:23 PM
We should be nice to these people. There should be nothing concerning lesbians masturbating with Bible at all for the creation museum.
That needs to be reserved as entertainment for the after party.
Posted by: CalGeorge | July 28, 2009 8:25 PM
Thomas Pynchon's new book - Inherent Vice - coming out and P.Z.'s visit to the whacko musuem - all in the same week!
Woo-hoo!
Posted by: rgz | July 28, 2009 8:29 PM
THIS IS ONLY THEORETICAL FUN, NOT ACTUAL ADVISE.
PZ you don't know how to perform a DDOS, the trick is to be undistinguished from the actual clients in a way that rejecting you causes them to reject their actual clients.
In a situation like this you don't want to flood the building or being in any way easily detectable, instead you want to incur constant, sustained cost to the operation, another trick is to incur a cost to the building in some way, if they are charging you then you are helping them, one option that always works is taxing the very filtering system or any other limited resource, one option would be to send individuals in small team (2-3 people) at a constant rate, have some of them get kicked, then while the staff is removing the first team remove them the next team would start acting disruptively the then the next, then the next...
This would work better if you synchronize teams with actual visits so the children learn about the creationists' suppressive ways.
BUT I don't see the point with this. What you really need is an actual SCIENCE MUSEUM in front of this "museum".
Posted by: Niall Millar | July 28, 2009 8:30 PM
Damn, if I lived in America I would sooo go on that trip.
Posted by: Ray C. | July 28, 2009 8:37 PM
Remember, boys and girls:
* "God damn America for treating its citizens as less than human": WRONG.
* "God damn America because of teh ghey": RIGHT.
Posted by: Frank | July 28, 2009 8:51 PM
"overtly homosexual in behavior" and "we have observed a number of hostile, crude, and profane comments". i'm won't be going but if i would, i would only have one question... "hey sailor, how man seamen could come out of a boat that big?"
Posted by: A Recovering Catholic | July 28, 2009 8:51 PM
t-shirts with naked lesbians masturbating with bibles...
can't stop laughing!
Posted by: Grenangle | July 28, 2009 8:54 PM
Watch out for agent provocateurs. A bit paranoid but creationist moral fiber does snap under very small amounts of pressure.
Posted by: Carlie | July 28, 2009 8:55 PM
Thanks for finally pointing out that, blasphemous though it may be, masturbating with a Bible is utterly impractical.
Depends on which hand you hold the Bible in now, doesn't it?
Posted by: ermine | July 28, 2009 8:58 PM
If they think that wearing a Darwin fish or other pro-evolution t-shirt is 'offensive or obscene', I want it caught on video. I want a record of the higher-ups at the Creationist 'Museum' saying 'The mere image of a Darwin fish or scarlet A is so offensive to us that we won't permit you entrance if you wear it.'
That'll certainly put the final kibosh on their claims that 'We just want to teach the controversy and let everyone make up their own minds', won't it?
Oh, they've got every right to toss someone out if they're wearing something pornographic or explicitly offensive, but if all their t-shirt, armband, or hat shows is that they're in agreement with the vast majority of real scientists or that they have a different belief in god, I want to be able to point and laugh at them for trying to throw someone out over it. What is the likelihood that they throw out anyone they see wearing a Star of David, hijab, yarmulka, turban, or other items that might be associated with other religions?
No, while I fully expect the 'horde' to be respectful, I don't want to see them cowed into silence for fear of getting someone's panties in a bunch, either. If they're thrown out because the museum staff can't handle a darwin t-shirt or because (horrors!) people break out in laughter at one or two of the most egregious of the exhibits, it'll be a total win on the side of the SSA and freethinkers - and I want to see it!
I'd really love to see the godbots going overboard and causing trouble to people who have nothing to do with the evil atheists. "Gotcha! You two dykes have to leave, no overtly homosexual activity!" "What the hell are you talking about? I'm Lutheran, and I'm fucking HOLDING MY SISTER'S HAND. What kind of freaks ARE you people?"
That's the sort of footbullet I'd really love to see captured. It may not happen, but a weasel can dream, can't he?
Posted by: Peter McKellar | July 28, 2009 9:20 PM
E.V. @99
"The Wrath of KHam"
Posted by: Ron Sullivan | July 28, 2009 9:29 PM
Rey Fox, #269: "with a crucifix, yes. But a bible?"
Thanks for finally pointing out that, blasphemous though it may be, masturbating with a Bible is utterly impractical.
That's two of you who need some tips on the finer points of female human anatomy and physiology. Hint: Masturbation doesn't much require anything penislike. Another hint; oh, call it a broad hint: Keep the book closed and mount the spine.
Geddit?
Sheesh.
Posted by: Morgan MacLaren | July 28, 2009 9:32 PM
I am disappointed I live in NZ and can't be part of the visit myself. Sounds like it will be awesome fun. I will look forward to reading the ensuing blogs about this from everyone who goes along.
PZ, I'd love to see what your reply was as well to that letter. I think also your good advice on how to conduct oneself during the visit could be extended to other situations because it's easier to make a point when you act in a civil manner. I sometimes receive random abusive messages from Creationists and Christians where they just act like name calling arseholes and it really diminishes their argument. But when I respond in a civil way they have no choice but to back off because they don't know how to respond to an intelligent, polite answer.
Posted by: Revyloution | July 28, 2009 9:38 PM
What delicious irony.
Atheists are, for the most part, very rude, violent, obscene, crude, crass, and demeaning in their writings and dealings with each other. Yet in public we are demure, polite, tolerant, nice, and sweet.
Christians are very sweet, polite, demure, and nice in their churches. When they get out in the world they instigate wars, judge others lives, are rude, crass, racist,and generally unpleasant to be around, unless your a Christian too.
Inspite of all the inflammatory rhetoric, I just assumed that everyone was going to show up at the creation museum with their best manners, and sharpest questions. Wish I could come, have fun guys.
Posted by: E.V. | July 28, 2009 9:49 PM
#283
Oh the King James Vibra model with the "pleasure ribbed spine" and French Tickler bookmark.
For those with penetration in mind, there are existing dildos shaped like Jeebus, Satan, crucifixes and nuns . I'm sure someone has come up with a butt plug in the shape of a miniature Torah scroll as well. If they haven't, I'm sure there will be soon. L'chaim.
Posted by: Michael Kingsford Gray | July 28, 2009 9:55 PM
I *really* like the "Atheists In Black" idea!
Posted by: Caine | July 28, 2009 9:56 PM
Ron Sullivan @ 283:
Thank you for having the patience to point out some of the basics of female anatomy. I had a near fatal eye roll reading those comments. I'd guess some men aren't too imaginative. ;)
Posted by: Don | July 28, 2009 10:11 PM
We note that, unlike the exchanges posted on the Pharyngula site, communications from Lyz Laddell of the Secular Student Alliance have generally been polite and respectful, which we appreciate.
If they appreciate her courtesy, they could at least bother to spell her name correctly.
(Lyz is a friend of mine from college.)
Posted by: foxfire | July 28, 2009 10:16 PM
Just curious; Why does this event have to be a confrontation to some who post here? Why can't it be an opportunity to demonstrate that atheists are reasonable, open-minded individuals who are perfectly willing to engage in a rational conversation with those who have faith in the idea that A&E romped with vegetarian dinosaurs on a 6K year old planet that a supernatural entity zapped into existence in 7 days.
Looking at some of the posts, we already have an imaginary situation where the creationists have infiltrated the group to create some horrendous situation to make atheists look bad. Give it a rest. Give the creationists a break. They may only be out to instill doubt in your mind, not to crucify you. If so, "tit-for-tat".
Wear something clean and in good taste. Before any male suggests that a female fucking a chemistry book is appropriate, I'd offer the alternative in bad taste of a male jacking-off with a physics text. Both are equally inappropriate.
Why can't this event be considered an opportunity to try to understand the perspective of people who are willing to devote so much time and energy to not recognizing physical evidence? I'm not talking about Ham and his staff. I'm thinking about whoever else might be visiting at the same time as the SSA event.
As far as Ham - I personally think he is a carny extraordinaire (dude did sucker in the big bucks for that "museum") although I cannot discount the possibility that he actually believes this stuff. I'd be willing to bet 95% on the former and 5% on the latter if there is a bookie "in the house".
Posted by: Robster, FCD | July 28, 2009 10:23 PM
foxfire, because we expect the best, but are prepared for the worst.
Posted by: SmartLX | July 28, 2009 10:26 PM
Thought of a great way to masturbate with a Bible: get one of the tiny keychain Bibles and seal it into one of a set of transparent anal beads.
That said, do NOT wear a shirt depicting this at least until you're out of the Museum.
Posted by: Jason | July 28, 2009 10:27 PM
I think that was a pretty nasty letter and frankly it makes me not want to go on this little field trippy thing. What's this about a Department of Safety with armed guards, dogs and vehicle searches?
After reading it, it's obvious they just wanted the PR and I am concerned that they have no real intent on treating us like the friendly, curious guests that we intend on being. The letter clearly demonstrates a lack of respect and shows that there is a real fear in their minds that we "zerglings" (by descending upon this shrine of the absurd) will somehow behave badly. That's not going to happen... In my mind, mutual respect is the only way to operate here and that's how we will operate.
I'm thinking that if PZ wasn't going - I wouldn't be going to this thing. I certainly don't at all like giving my money to this ode to ignorance, but on the other hand I feel it is worth the blog material and self education. Plus PZ will be there... what's not to like about that? Nothing except... Oh yeah the armed guards and the talking snakes. Right I forgot.
On the subject of T-shirts... I've ordered the PZ shirt from CafePress. I wonder if that is too offensive? Whatever. Just the fact that we are trying to figure out what to wear indicates to me that they (the Creationist Museum overlords) may already be winning the PR battle. That pisses me off!
Posted by: Terry | July 28, 2009 10:32 PM
"This is awesome, I eagerly await your visit to a Native American museum, and the report of your after-party mocking of their culture and beliefs. Hilarious!"
When my wife and I visited the Zuni Cultural Center, there was no reason to "after-party mock ..." because the person who led the tour was an actual scientist; if I remember right, he was a Native American with either a Master's or PhD in Archeology, and didn't try to proselytize us. The exhibits were more culture and history than religion, certainly not religion as Xians define religion.
Posted by: DominEditrix | July 28, 2009 10:38 PM
PZ, I'm sending you an email; would you please look at it.
Posted by: Haar | July 28, 2009 10:41 PM
If the Creation Museum is ostensibly an educational museum, open to the public, then it's my understanding that they are not allowed to discriminate against attendees on the basis of alternative speech, including symbolic dress (Tinker v. Des Moines School District). Again, as PZ said, this doesn't condone inappropriate behavior, and it gets hard to say that the aforementioned Lesbians-masturbating-with-bibles t-shirts are within the bounds of alternative speech, but it wouldn't hurt to remember those words; Tinker v. Des Moines.
Posted by: dniete97 | July 28, 2009 10:42 PM
god i wish i could be there.
Posted by: foxfire | July 28, 2009 10:45 PM
P.S. If I could be there (sorry, I'm on the west coast), I'd ask the "Hammites" why those vegetarian dinosaurs had such long, sharp, ideal-for-flesh-tearing teeth. Kinda tough for them grinding up the ferns and palm trees in the garden of eden. Perhaps god hadn't perfected the molar yet?
Posted by: Aquaria | July 28, 2009 10:45 PM
Foxfire:
You haven't gone up against uber-authoritarian types before, have you?
You've never dealt with infiltration of political/social activist groups, either, apparently. You definitely aren't aware of tactics the authoritarians (and especially Christers) have used in the past.
And if you think a single one of them wants a rational discussion--you're living in a bigger fantasy land than those twits are. They don't want discussion; they want obedience.
Posted by: SphinctOr | July 28, 2009 10:50 PM
** Alert **
The Creation Museum Dino-Cops actually have K-9 dogs roaming around inside!!
And handguns.
Now THAT, is scary shit.
Read this excellent review from N + 1 Magazine:
http://www.nplusonemag.com/creation-nation
Posted by: Jeremy S | July 28, 2009 11:00 PM
I'm seriously thinking of going, since I'm only 4 hours away. I wonder if one of my tame shirts like "Future Transitional Fossil" would somehow be considered offensive? I'm willing to bet they would consider that just cause to prevent entry.
Posted by: Colin | July 28, 2009 11:02 PM
A mate of mine had a t-shirt with a rather lurid picture of a nun on all fours getting a thorough rogering, doggy style, by a demon. The caption was "Get thee behind me, Satan".
So I shouldn't borrow that shirt then?
Posted by: No Bs | July 28, 2009 11:04 PM
Not going, but here's my two cents;
1) Don't wear anything provocative. Period. If you have to ask it probably is.
2) There will be children there. Everything should be Rated PG (or G).
3) The police will probably be there. And everything which that entails.
4) Treat this as a reconnoiter mission. Be like the Green Berets, go in gather "intelligence", and leave with out engaging the enemy. Victory without combat.
5) Anyone acting like a jerk not only reflects badly on the "atheist community" at large, but shows disrespect for PZ. Remember he invited you as a group.
6) Remember again, the police will be there. With all which that entails.
Posted by: SphinctOr | July 28, 2009 11:08 PM
Another nice Photo Tour with some funny Comments: http://www.flickr.com/photos/scalzi/sets/72157603091357751/
oh, and the first few paragraphs of his review had me on the floor!! http://whatever.scalzi.com/2007/11/12/your-creation-museum-report/
Posted by: foxfire | July 28, 2009 11:15 PM
@Robster #291:
No argument from me with that sir - I think that is a very wise way of dealing with life. My argument is with those who would strive to create a situation where only the worst could be expected.
@Jason #293: THANK YOU! What a cool T-shirt. I ordered one too.
@Aquaria #299
Well, with all due respect for your "observation", I was born in 1951 and encountered significant resistance in my youth when I expressed (and fought for - my father stood behind me) a right to pursue science. Although I chose to not pursue a post graduate degree in physics (I wasn't "good enough" in my mind), I was fairly successful in the business world. Where "uber-authoritarian types" are rampant.
Perhaps, Aquaria, you might seek more data before you render judgment.
Posted by: SphinctOr | July 28, 2009 11:19 PM
Here's the "LOL Cats" photo contest called the LOLCreashun Thread:
Some really funny LOL Photos!!
http://whateveresque.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=495
Posted by: Louis | July 28, 2009 11:20 PM
Regardless of what I think are the merits/flaws of this planned trip, and equally regardless of what other behaviours should or should not be involved, I very strongly think that everyone going should be made to insert a pair of remote controlled love eggs into either their vagina or their anus (depending on sex and orifice of choice). The remote controls should be mixed up in a great big sack and one handed out to each participant.
That way little random instances of pleasure will spontaneously spread across the premises. I can see Ken Ham lecturing to a hall of mildly aroused/amusingly annoyed atheists some of whom break out into spontaneous fits of gasping or giggling.
Well the image amused the hell out of me! There could also be bacon for those interested....
Louis
P.S. Mind you I think the world would be a better place all round if we all had some remote controlled love eggs in most of the time, and some random person had the controller.
Posted by: Museli | July 28, 2009 11:25 PM
I think this visit will certainly get alot of media coverage, which will be a fantastic thing, I only wish I could afford to come along!
The letter is quite reasonable in its requests...apart from one or two behests that obviously stem from petty intolerance.
I hope it all goes smoothly, make us proud you beautiful heathens!
Posted by: Aldora | July 28, 2009 11:35 PM
Wow, I wish I could be there to see this...
But seriously, just to repeat what's already been said for the sake of emphasis: some sort of highly visible, distinctive sticker/badge seems like an absolute must to me. I wouldn't take any chances with the potential for disruptive creationist plants. At the very least have an official checklist with names, and give a copy to the museum for good measure. Anyone NOT on that list has nothing to do with your group.
Also, to anyone who's going to wear an atheist, science-y, or snarky shirt, I suggest bringing a jacket or an extra plain shirt with you. That way if they try to pull any crap about your shirt being "offensive clothing" to prevent you from going in, zip up or change in a bathroom. Can't be too careful, especially for those of you traveling hundreds of miles!
Good luck everyone, and write some killer reviews for those of us who can't be there!
Posted by: Aquaria | July 28, 2009 11:42 PM
Foxfire, you still don't get it.
You must not have been part of a political group where agents provocateurs were not only common, but expected. Ask union organizers, feminists, or civil/human rights protesters about the constant battle they fight to find/weed out these troublemakers.
Until you've been on that side of the fence, you are the one who needs to seek more data about a subject. You clearly do not understand why people worry about agent provocateurs, and certainly not why such people understand full well why some protection measures are necessary for a group going into a place manned by a group of crazies.
Posted by: SphinctOr | July 28, 2009 11:42 PM
I think it would be more appropriate to wear T-Shirts with you favorite Bible verses:
Ezekiel 23:20 Black T-Shirt
"There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses."
or
1 Timothy 2:12 Black T-Shirt
"Suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence"
Landover Baptist has 'em: http://www.cafepress.com/landoverbaptist/75553
Posted by: Will | July 28, 2009 11:45 PM
Just in case video/audio recording is not allowed:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/b550/
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/security/bef2/
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/a0f3/
Posted by: truthspeaker | July 28, 2009 11:50 PM
Has anyone given you any indication at all that they intend to engage in illegal activity? Why mention the police at all, let alone twice? Do you usually smoke a joint in the parking lot when you visit a museum?
Posted by: truthspeaker | July 29, 2009 12:01 AM
What a load of bullshit.
Posted by: Peter McKellar | July 29, 2009 12:01 AM
I doubt anyone associated or sympathetic with the museum will be reachable with reason or impressed by civil behaviour. They have their own confirmation bias and the very existence of atheists (anywhere on the planet) is offensive to them.
The people I think may notice are shopkeepers and bar staff in the area that take the hordes of the ungodly to their hearths after the event. When holding "symposia" after, there should be no problem wearing godless clothing, spending money and generally having fun in a non-violent (though possibly rowdy) way.
These locals are probably sick of seeing brain-dead zombies and their mind-abused offspring in their shops or serving them sodas at the wet-bar. For years they will probably be thinking "I wish some more of those atheists would come back through - joking, laughing (or writhing and gasping and "gripping" their bibles)"
Posted by: Dan W | July 29, 2009 12:05 AM
Well, the guys at the Creation Museum certainly are patronizing, aren't they? It's as if they think grown-up atheists act just like a bunch of little kids. I bet they'll be shocked to see a big group of atheists being all well-behaved in there. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the Creation Museum decides to throw the whole group out because some people are "offended" to see open atheists in their ridiculous "museum". Hope all goes well, and no-one gives them a good excuse to throw you all out. I'll be waiting to see blog posts of how it went online.
Posted by: MattusMaximus | July 29, 2009 12:06 AM
Good luck, PZ and "horde" :)
As someone who has dealt with creationists in a variety of forums (some of it on their turf), I second his well-reasoned advice.
Regardless of your disagreement with their creationist views, however nutty they may be, you will be on their property. So don't give them any excuse to mess with you, because they can toss you.
I strongly encourage you to a) break into smaller, more manageable groups, and b) video record *everything*!
Also, for those of you asking whether this or that T-shirt would be allowed, if you're asking then it probably would not be allowed in. I suggest bringing a backup T-shirt just in case.
Be nice, have fun, and do us godless heathens proud! :)
Posted by: Hamilton Jacobi | July 29, 2009 12:12 AM
T-shirts -- meh. What this situation calls for is vividly colored Flintstones costumes. How else can you mount the saddled stegosaurus with pride?
Either that or full pirate regalia. I can't decide.
Posted by: Hamilton Jacobi | July 29, 2009 12:19 AM
Oops -- just saw the picture; it's a triceratops, not a stegosaurus. I guess mounting a stegosaurus would be a bit uncomfortable.
Posted by: Mena | July 29, 2009 12:20 AM
They seem to think of atheists in the same way that cops think of African-American professors in their own homes, don't they?
Posted by: Steven Dunlap | July 29, 2009 12:30 AM
At 320 + comments I'm not sure anyone will read this but I wonder if anyone noticed that the letter twice described the "museum" as a "Christian facility." No mention of it being a scientific facility. Nice to see that at least they have that straight.
Given that the letter writer has clearly (and honestly for a change) stated the museum represents the "Christian" view of the Earth and its history then why does that view belong in the public schools? Just a thought.
Posted by: DJM | July 29, 2009 12:32 AM
Not germane to the subject, but for what it's worth:
MORE INTELLIGENT DESIGN NONSENSE OUT OF IOWA
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090718/OPINION01/907180306/-1/NEWS04
Posted by: Wowbagger, OM | July 29, 2009 12:33 AM
I'd imagine that, being sensible (and having learned from the Expelled incident), you'd have every possible contingency - record absolutely everything, have some people not obviously with the group booking etc. - in order to make sure that, if anything happens, there are going to be eyes and ears (and recording devices) everywhere.
But always remember that you're dealing with the kind of Christians who feel that lying and assaulting people is okay as long as it's Lying for Jesus and Assaulting for God.
Posted by: DJM | July 29, 2009 12:36 AM
What if the T-shirt is an accurate depiction of a biblical event - like David with Bathsheba, incest, Hosea & the hooker, or any one of the countless homosexual encounters in the old testament - as long as the correct bible verse (king james version) is cited?????
Posted by: oswald1917 | July 29, 2009 12:40 AM
I'm eager to see the comments following a visit that's not cut short by confrontation and expulsion, so here's a suggestion: don't wear the Darwin fish.
As I'm sure some of you know, the fish functioned as a symbolic declaration of faith for early Christians. The Greek word for "fish" worked as the acronym for a creedal statement: "Jesus Christ Son of God (the) Savior."
Think about it. The Darwin fish arguably represents the desecration of a sacred religious symbol for Christians. Would a t-shirt, pin, or pendant of a cross deliberately modified to suggest (what folks at the Creation Museum would construe as) blatant atheism cause a ruckus? Of course it would. The Darwin fish could similarly offend the museum staff, catalyze a confrontation, and disrupt (or end) the visit.
Posted by: Kevin | July 29, 2009 1:07 AM
I almost began respecting what they were saying, until I read "overtly homosexual in behavior." Are you kidding me? PLEASE, someone air-hump one of the animatronic characters now.
Posted by: Vinifera7
|
July 29, 2009 1:11 AM
So many things could go wrong. If even one person gets a little carried away, the Creationists will immediately jump up and say "See? I told you that those evil atheists would cause a ruckus!"
I can imagine that the staff would even consider audible laughter as a reason to expel the group.
Posted by: tohellwithyourturtle | July 29, 2009 1:21 AM
I'm thinking of joining the group at the "museum" because it makes no sense to me to drive to Columbus (2 hrs.) only to drive to NKY (another 2 hrs.) when I can be there in 1.5. Do I want to go? Yes, for many reasons. No for just as many...foremost (I know it's been said) I have better uses for my money, but also in disagreement with the cowardice from some of the posters tonight.
I could go on, but what's the point? The chickenshits will back out fearing a confrontation while everybody else will have a peaceful, hilarious time.
Posted by: Guy Petersen, Jr. | July 29, 2009 1:28 AM
If ya'll are up for another fun road trip, I'd suggest a visit to Cumberland Caverns in Tennessee. Its a huge cave privately owned by a christian group.
I did not realize this until the tour guide started preaching creationism a half mile into the cave and 3,500 feet underground. The guide also would light up a section we would walk through then turn them off as we got past, then turning on more lights ahead, so we had no way of finding our way back out without him turning on the lights for us. We finally got to the back of this huge cave and there we're a couple 2 x 4's sticking out of some concrete blocks for benches. The tour guide was like, now we have a special "light show" for you. So the guide turned off all the lights, you couldn't see your hand in front of your face it was so pitch black, when all the sudden an old crackling cassette tape recorder starts playing something that sounded like it was from some old Charleton Heston movie. Then they had some cheap ass christmas lights wrapped around some ancient stalagtites occasionally lighting up off and on.
Anyways Charleton Heston's voice started booming off the side of the caverns "In the beginning there was light" (que lights) and for a half hour I twisted and turned growling audible displeasure at my situation of feeling trapped in some warped religious mind fuck underground with nowhere to escape. Finally they got to revelations and the guide turned the lights on and by this time Im livid. I was just wanting to tour a cave, not to unexpectedly be forced religion on me.
I'd love to see 200 atheists go there with 200 flashlights and walk off as soon as that horrible light show started.
Posted by: TheVirginian | July 29, 2009 1:30 AM
Eamon Knight:
I was at work earlier and only now saw your response to my comment.
Hitler never publicly repudiated the Roman Catholic Church and was never excommunicated. He paid the church tax. When his death was announced, Archbishop Bertram ordered a requiem in Germany's Catholic churches for him and all dead German soldiers.
I think there's good reason to argue that, privately, Hitler had abandoned specific Catholic doctrines by the later 1930s and was a generic Protestant, but he never went public with his (probable) doubts. The requiem is covered in "A Requiem for Hitler" by Klaus Scholder, who wrote a lengthy history of Germany's churches and their relationship with Hitler, the Nazis, etc. Not very flattering to the churches.
Posted by: MichaelL | July 29, 2009 1:36 AM
Godless clothing?
What!? You urged your followers to wear a poly-cotton blend! You will surely burn in hell, PZ!
Posted by: BdN | July 29, 2009 1:50 AM
Well, it seems that, almost like everything else, it's been plagiarized from others, pagans this time. Should pagans be offended by the "Jesus fish" ?
Even some Christians recognize it and refuse to use it. So ?
A little bit OT : since the bride buying ads have been removed, the Google Ads are getting crazier. After the Good News Magazine, I got Anointed-One.net where we learn why atheism is anti-scientific (not really crazy, usual babbling) and the great The Cosmos of Life's Creation where we learn among other things that the double helix is god :
"The nucleotides is the four Characters, = two in our digital system, and 26 in the English language.
Codons is the letters making Genes = Words make sentences, or operands
for the instructions of Ideas enclosed in the Regulon =.Paragraph.
All of the Paragraphs together are the Chapter which describes a Chromosome,
for a total of 46 chapters to this book for the code for intelegent Human beings..
The DNA in each human cell is packaged into 46 chromosomes arranged into 23 pairs.
Each chromosome is a physically separate molecule of DNA that ranges in length from about 50 million to 250 million base pairs.
The Genetic Codes or instructions = Abstract Meaning of each word carrying the instruction.
This meaning is established by the evolution of a language and thoughts over a long time.
From the the dawn of mankind.
If you do not get the meaning, it is an empty word without instruction.
The abstract meaning of words is Logica,
a product of the evolution of the thoughts in the minds of many people over time.
(The Mind is the Intelligent Programmer of our future in time.)
The Mind of all Intelligent Life. – the internet connects them all."
Yep. Time Cube impostor ?
Posted by: Brain Hertz | July 29, 2009 2:03 AM
I think your interpretation is entirely incorrect. The creation museum is a private entity, not a government entity (as was the defendant in the case you cite) and the argument doesn't apply. They have no requirement in any way to permit free speech, and they are entirely free to eject from the premises anybody with whom they disagree, even if it is for merely voicing a viewpoint with which they disagree, or for wearing clothing they deem inappropriate in their sole judgement. They could ask you to leave for not wearing a tie if they feel like it - and they'd be completely within their rights.
That doesn't mean they'd be right, only within their legal rights to do that if they so wished. It really isn't a good idea to try to insist that they have some sort of legal requirement to accomodate people with whom they disagree. They don't, and good thing too...
Posted by: Drazzel | July 29, 2009 2:05 AM
This only makes me want to go on this trip even more.
Posted by: GMacs | July 29, 2009 2:07 AM
Oops -- just saw the picture; it's a triceratops, not a stegosaurus. I guess mounting a stegosaurus would be a bit uncomfortable.
For the women I imagine it would be much like masturbating with a bible. (Not that I would know first hand, lacking a vagina.)
Posted by: Brownian, OM
|
July 29, 2009 2:11 AM
You guys are going about this all wrong. Forget 'godless clothing': simply slaughter some Midianites while there, remembering to keep the virgins for yourselves as spoils of war. Surely Ham and his gorillas won't have a problem with that.
Posted by: Rick R | July 29, 2009 2:12 AM
I've spent a good portion of the day browsing a few photo albums of this "museum" on flickr. Aside from the laughs/horror (there ought to be a new word to describe this compound emotion) I came away with a sense of the physical layout of this place.
First, I wouldn't be surprised if you had a loooooooooong wait to get in. Apparently, there is a flow bottleneck while they screen a movie about the 6-day creation. This means the tour comes to a grinding halt at regular intervals.
The inside doesn't really look like any museum I've ever seen. There are no large spaces where 200 people could congregate and stay together as a group. It's laid out more like a dark ride: you walk through a path that weaves around the "exhibits". So I would think the expectation that you would be split into small groups is pretty accurate, whether on purpose (by the staff) or just naturally, by the way it's laid out.
Posted by: pdferguson
|
July 29, 2009 2:14 AM
JanitorForSatan666 #146 yammered:
You barge in here slinging insults and peddling the same old religious bullshit we've heard countless times before, and you think we're the rude ones?
Get in the fookin' sack!
Posted by: foxfire | July 29, 2009 2:27 AM
@Aquaria #310,
Sigh. Yes I *do* get it and I am not at all suggesting that one walk into a lions den expecting that the cat won't show its teeth.
I'm talking about not creating a situation that makes it easier for any "agent provocateurs" (actually that's a good short descriptor - I always thought of them as "assholes for the other side trying to fake everyone out").
I'm also suggesting that an opportunity might exist to spark the cognitive, rational ability of any non-agent provocateur creationist who might be present, if one doesn't immediately blow them off by appearing to be an antagonistic threat.
What did I say that led you to believe that I don't think taking protective measures is a good idea? I think it is an excellent idea, particularly with such a large group.
Posted by: spinetingler | July 29, 2009 2:33 AM
>WANTED: Two female lesbians who wouldn't mind posing naked >while masterbating with a bible. Image will be used for >T-shirts. Payment: 2 t-shirts.
I'll pay two t-shirts and a fine bottle of wine.
Posted by: CynicalAmber | July 29, 2009 2:40 AM
I wish I could join your group but I am across the world,in Pakistan.Go Atheists!!
Just had a suggestion,maybe a smaller group should go for a pre-visit and see what rules they have regarding cameras and video equipment,that way if they suddenly impose some new restrictions on 7th August you will have people in the group who have experienced otherwise and can challenge the sudden change of rules.
Posted by: Dr. P | July 29, 2009 2:46 AM
Typical of the emotionally stunted to have no sense of self awareness. The catholic whore of babylon thing is an interesting deflection considering they were the original christians.The atheists have something to do with the crusades, maybe? Nazis were atheists? Really? Do tell cause I always thought most reasonably sane people agreed that most in the party were actually quite religious.What history book have you been reading(negative 10 points for mentioning the bible here)?Posted by: spinetingler | July 29, 2009 2:50 AM
Anyone going from Charleston, SC or the general area? I'd share driving/gas.
Posted by: JHS
|
July 29, 2009 2:54 AM
One more comment. There's been some back and forth about whether or not this "museum" has the right to basically do whatever it wants to whoever it wants who might step on to its property. And I'd agree: it is a private organization, and they can be as awful as they want to whomever they want (within the confines of the law). But at the same time, they purport to be offering something to the public at large (as a museum), and if they are as terrified as they seem to be when faced with those who might not agree with them (shock! horror!), then they have already betrayed themselves to be the sham that they are. However, according to my admittedly shoddy understanding of such legal things, it would seem that, if they want you out....you gotta go.
BUT...like I said, the entire premise that this place sells itself on is being a "museum," as in, a place of open inquiry for the public at large. Them barring you/us at the gates could be the best thing ever, because it completely exposes how one-sided even they assume themselves to be. You don't see the Met barring people who don't, say, like and pre-agree with a "Treasures of Antiquity" or "Best Impressionist Paintings Ever" exhibit, or (more to the point) the Natural History Museum denying young earth Christians entrance. Why? Because the whole point is open and free inquiry. The attitude of any such institution should be, "Come in, see what we have on display. Like it or don't, whatever. But we hope you take *something* away, and maybe leave just a little different than you came." That's all PZ and the SSA want to do. If the "museum" denies them that, fine. But it will speak far worse for them than it will for us terrible, horrible, no good atheists.
Posted by: Hamilton Jacobi | July 29, 2009 2:58 AM
That is my new favorite saying, but now I can't find the video anywhere. I thought it was on Dawkins's web site, but apparently that was just a hallucination. Anyone know where to find it?
Posted by: Dr. P | July 29, 2009 3:02 AM
aaaaaaaaaand........SCORE!!!!!!The Native American Atheists down the Densely Obtuse Concern Trolls in overtime!Posted by: John Morales | July 29, 2009 3:05 AM
Hamilton,
PZ posted it.
Posted by: Cruithne | July 29, 2009 3:23 AM
Reading Mr Blaylock's email, I get the distinct impression that you are already on double secret probation.
I wish I was going with you but I'm here in Northern Ireland and with the Irish republic's recent introduction of a blasphemy law we have our own work cut out for us.
So all I can say to you is expect to be thrown out but don't give them the pleasure of having a good reason for doing it.
Whatever happens, act in a way that allows you all to be very smug about it afterwards.
To parpaphrase a well known saying.
Walk softly and carry a big sack.
Posted by: Philip1978 | July 29, 2009 3:40 AM
Like Joe Willis, my birthday is also on the 7th, sadly I am across the pond in England and cannot make it, however that will not stop me raising a glass for all you godless heathens causing mayhem in the "museum".
I do love the paranoid letter, I love the way they switch to Defcon 1 all because a bunch of people who don't belileve in their god are coming to look around the museum, ask a bunch of questions and then go off to the pub to laugh about it!
OMG! ITS THE ATHEISTS!! QUICK SOMEONE LOCK THE CHILDREN AWAY, THEY'LL BE EATEN FOR SURE!!
THE NAZIS ARE COMING!!
GAAAAAAAAAAHHH!
OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!
What are we going to do?
OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!OMG!
Oh and love the Janitor coming along and saying the Crusades were not Christian, that has left me howling with laughter!
Have tremendous fun ladies and gentlemen, I wish you all the best.
Posted by: Hamilton Jacobi | July 29, 2009 3:41 AM
Arrrgh!
I think the proper colloquial expression for that is a "brain fart," no? In case you were worried, I also found my hat; it was hidden on my head.
This is a sign from the gods that I am reading too many blogs, and it is time to get back to the real world.
Posted by: Osthato | July 29, 2009 3:53 AM
You guys should wear the "No Raptors" shirt from xkcd.
Posted by: Muse142 | July 29, 2009 3:59 AM
#313, re: "Do you usually smoke a joint in the parking lot when you visit a museum?"
Would you have a problem if I did? :P I might especially be tempted before entering a damned creationist museum. The exhibits would be even funnier, and I'd be mellow enough not to loudly and angrily WTF at the horror within.
Posted by: Niall Millar | July 29, 2009 5:05 AM
Damn, if I lived in America I would sooo go on that trip.
Posted by: Bridget McKinney | July 29, 2009 5:12 AM
240+ people is a huge group for this.
I live in Cincinnati and finally broke down and visited the "museum" a few weeks ago. We went on a Tuesday, and I was surprised at the crowd that was there even then, so as a couple of other commenters have said, you should probably expect your tour to be slow-going.
Honestly, it's quite a lot to take in, and there are several video-based exhibits that are worth checking out if you want to fully experience whatever it is that the "museum" is trying to teach.
I went with my boyfriend, who is MUCH nicer than me, which actually helped. I pretty much couldn't even speak as we walked through the place. Just bottled it all up for later.
The people who work at the museum were all incredibly kind and considerate, which was kind of a humbling experience for me, since I was prepared for crazy whackjobs wielding bibles as weapons. We spoke at length with one man, and while he was concerned that we "believe in" evolution, what we found was that he really had no idea how to argue his position as a creationist. He gave us some interesting(?) little pamphlets by Ken Ham and directed us to the Answers in Genesis website for more information.
This sort of tacit acceptance rather than rabid belief seemed to be more the rule than the exception among the staff members that we spoke with, and by the end of the day I just found myself furious at Ken Ham/AiG. That kind, caring, otherwise intelligent people are being duped and exploited by that scumbag REALLY REALLY bothers me.
I went there prepared to face fanatics, but what I found were kind and thoughtful people who have been lied to in an unspeakably despicable fashion.
My advice for your group is to please reserve anger and judgment for the mastermind behind this temple to dishonesty. The people who are working for $10/hour or even as volunteers really do seem to be nice normal folks who are trying to do something that they have been taught is good.
Personally, I was really happy with the extended conversation we had with the man we talked to. We managed to ask him several questions about both science and scripture that made him think, which led to him asking questions and, hopefully, to seeking some more knowledge on the issue himself. We learned some stuff (I learned that I could walk through the whole place without screaming once!) and I think we helped at least one man to look for greater knowledge and better answers than the ones given in Ken Ham's little pamphlets.
If anyone is interested in pics of the place, I've got a set up on Flickr from our visit:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/narcissism/sets/72157619892928838/
In all seriousness, the Creation Museum DOES have really awesome fake dinosaurs.
Posted by: Xenithrys | July 29, 2009 5:15 AM
As another pharyngulite who can't come on this trip because of the distance, I'm looking forward to reading your stories and seeing the pictures. Don't forget to document the gift shop -- remember like all churches this is about separating people from their money.
Posted by: Lifesigns | July 29, 2009 5:16 AM
It'll be interesting to see how this turns out. I hope the lot of you that are going will be filming and taking pictures. Especially if there's a "throwing-out" part.
Posted by: GumbyPhobe | July 29, 2009 5:28 AM
I bet the paranoia-stricken Anti-Education Front who runs
this spineless fossil of a museum will publish their own
POV-video about the event, with the invasion of the skeptic
hordes set to their favorite scare tune: 'O Fortuna'.
I also bet Faux News' stalking expert and ambushologist Griff Jenkins has already booked a flight.
Posted by: Xenithrys | July 29, 2009 5:28 AM
Answers in Genesis? I just read Genesis 1. If this guy designed and constructed the living world, he doesn't seem to understand what he's done. Just whales, fish, fowl and cattle? What about Prokaryotes and Eukaryotes? Beetles? Protostomes and Deuterostomes? Algae, Fungi?
And just one ocean? This looks more like it was written by someone living on the shore of the Mediterranean about 3,000 years ago.
Posted by: shyster | July 29, 2009 5:44 AM
PZ, I understand your concern for common courtesy in dealing with the wackaloon museum. Why didn't this common courtesy extend to the holy jebus cracker?
Belief in transubstantiation goes farther back than this goofy establishment yet you caution good behavior. With the jebus cracker you suggested all manner of theft and desecration.
I never agreed with your jebus cracker position and don't understand your ability to mark a difference in dealing with the loony bin.
Posted by: John Morales | July 29, 2009 6:15 AM
shyster: (my bold)
Why doesn't yours, O hypocrite?
Your lack of understanding is noted.
Posted by: J-Ball | July 29, 2009 6:39 AM
>I went there prepared to face fanatics, but what I found
>were kind and thoughtful people who have been lied to in
>an unspeakably despicable fashion.
That's why this is an incredible opportunity. The "horde" should prepare many pointed questions, pepper the docents with them, and capture it all on video to show how ill-informed the people running the museum are. And try to keep the questioning from looking like a debate.
If you get one ill-informed docent, HamCo can blow it off as a "novice" employee. If every single docent is equally as ill-informed, that would speak much more loudly. Even better would be multiple docents to provide different sincere ad hoc explanations to a single question. And if this repeats question after question, docent after docent, it would be pretty funny.
Everybody going should be looking at this as a film shoot for a documentary, and everybody should be carrying a video camera. Pool all the video afterward and put together a documentary exposing the "museum" for what it is -- basically a ministry for true believers.
Again, this is an opportunity. Properly executed this could result in a monumental film project.
Posted by: shyster | July 29, 2009 6:50 AM
#360, let me try to chip through that wall of sludge you are using for a brain.
I don't believe in jebus or any other folk myth, sky wiennie and have no problem calmly debating the beliefs of those that do.
I draw the line at desecration; if for no other reason than it is just plain rude.
The jebus peoples' trinkets are evidence of their religion. I will respect those trinkets to the same extent that that I will agree with you that your children are smart and your wife beautiful, even when faced with clear evidence to the contrary.
Posted by: Feynmaniac | July 29, 2009 6:54 AM
So what if it's older? Both are still silly. Anyway, Myers specifically asked NOT to disrupt church services to obtain the jebus cracker.
The fact that he got death threats over the jebus cracker does mean he was dealing the "loony bin".
Posted by: AKobold | July 29, 2009 7:17 AM
"t-shirts with naked lesbians masturbating with bibles will give them an excuse to throw you out, so don't do it"
Damn!
Posted by: Fred The Hun | July 29, 2009 7:20 AM
These people are actually very well informed! It just so happens they are well informed with a lot of really shitty information ;-)
Posted by: No Guy in the Sky
|
July 29, 2009 7:26 AM
I am going. This is how I feel about the letter. lol
http://www.noguyinthesky.com/2009/07/denomic-horde-is-coming-christians-are.html
Posted by: Cheezits | July 29, 2009 7:27 AM
Pool all the video afterward and put together a documentary exposing the "museum" for what it is -- basically a ministry for true believers.
What's there to expose? This was never any secret. :-D
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
July 29, 2009 7:43 AM
What a concern troll. You appear to be so considerate of others, you will give them your wallet before they can pull the knife on you. The desecration occurred in PZ's private residence. It was not done on the steps of a cat-o-lick church. It's the difference between burning a worn flag in your backyard, or burning one across the street from a VFW post. The fact that you can't see this distinction says a lot about you, and none of it good.Posted by: shyster | July 29, 2009 7:45 AM
#363, death threats from delusional cowards are never justified, but keep in mind that PZ sent out a call for his unholy minions to steal a jebus cracker, their most holy trinket, so that he could do evil things to it.
You can't poke a stick at a violent, paranoid wackaloon and then claim shock and surprise when they act true to character. I simply expected better of PZ.
Posted by: John Morales | July 29, 2009 7:45 AM
shyster @362:
Apparently, blasphemy and condescension to believers aren't rude, but desecration is. Uh-huh.
Wall of sludge? Heh.
You may want to look the term up, before using it again...
Posted by: Fly Defenestrated | July 29, 2009 7:50 AM
No one stands a chance of getting through the door with Penny Arcade's Jesus shirt on, but it's something keep in mind.
Maybe it'd be better to show up with a EMF scanner and shirt that read "Garage Dragon Hunter."
Posted by: Cuttlefish, OM | July 29, 2009 7:53 AM
Warningly, scorningly,
Silly Creationists
Prep for felonious
Slander and Libel;
Meanwhile, Pharyngulites
Entrepreneurial
Hurry to patent a
Vibrating Bible.
Posted by: shyster | July 29, 2009 7:53 AM
#370, we all have to draw a line somewhere and that is my line. I live for blasphemy and condescension.
I assume you would not commit assault for the pleasure of desecrating a jebus cracker. If I'm correct, that's your line.
You are correct about "sludge." It can form a wall but as a semi-solid perhaps "chip" was incorrect.
"A generic term for solids separated from suspension in a liquid; A residual semi-solid material left from industrial, water treatment, or wastewater treatment processes; A sediment of accumulated minerals in a steam boiler; A mass of small pieces of ice on the surface of a body of water"
Posted by: Dancaban | July 29, 2009 7:57 AM
Please, please, please can someone make a video of this and make it available on Youtube etc etc for us poor sods in the UK?
Posted by: Michael Kingsford Gray | July 29, 2009 7:58 AM
@Nerd of Redhead, OM:
shyster has been sucking the Moonybaum Koolaid...
Posted by: aratina cage
|
July 29, 2009 8:02 AM
Cuttlefish, that was a masterpiece!!
Posted by: John Morales | July 29, 2009 8:05 AM
shyster,
Hm. Perhaps you're unaware that blasphemy is a form of desecration, and that they're functionally near-synonymous.
Posted by: Cheb Ghobbi | July 29, 2009 8:07 AM
To whoever posted the tripadvisor.com link earlier, how about this little gem?
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
July 29, 2009 8:08 AM
Astute comment. I prefer the Pharyngula grog myself.Posted by: shyster | July 29, 2009 8:19 AM
"Perhaps you're unaware that blasphemy is a form of desecration, and that they're functionally near-synonymous."
And "near-synonymous" is where I draw my line.
This argument is getting silly and we will not see eye to eye; I'm done.
As you took your weak-assed shot at being condescending let me end with: All poodles are dogs but not all dogs are poodles. How does that grab you, Fifi?
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 29, 2009 8:22 AM
Wish i could, but I'm tied up
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 29, 2009 8:24 AM
shyster what is your take on hamburgers?
Posted by: Richard Eis | July 29, 2009 8:28 AM
This place looks pretty vacuous and dull. If anyone plays up it will be out of frustrated boredom.
Wouldn't mind seeing the gardens though.
Posted by: shyster | July 29, 2009 8:33 AM
Chimp, all hamburgers are not meat but pretty much all meat can be ground into hamburger (except that crap they serve at MickyD).
Some "hamburgers" are beef, and some are uneatable tofu slabs pretending to be meat so that veggies won't feel left out at the picnic.
PS: I love Charleston but you picked one hot, humid time to go. Have fun.
Posted by: me2 | July 29, 2009 8:36 AM
Slightly OT,here's a creationist website dedicated to warning everyone about us evil atheists.
http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/
The page on Atheists and Divorce is interesting; apparently one of the reasons that divorce is so high (it's not) in the atheist community is because .........
"Given the more "flexible" sexual morals of some atheists, it would be safe to assume that at least some atheist couples have more "elastic" relationships which actually allow affairs with other people. Such "alternative" lifestyles are not condemned by some atheists, given their "tolerant" attitude toward sexuality. Clearly this would prevent some couples from splitting up because of out-of-marriage sexual relationships, at least for awhile. The dark side of this is that it increases their chances of contracting deadly STD's."
WTF??!!
Posted by: dNorrisM | July 29, 2009 8:40 AM
I'm sure they will inspect the tags on everyone's clothing to see if thay are blended fabrics:
Cotton + flax = Sin
Posted by: John Morales | July 29, 2009 8:41 AM
shyster:
All I did is to point out your hypocrisy, and to charitably attribute it to ignorance rather than to malevolence.
PS How does it grab me? It doesn't.
Well, all German Shepherds are Alsatians, if you want an apposite analogy.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
|
July 29, 2009 8:41 AM
Are you sheltered enough to think that actual illegal activity is required to have trouble with the police?
Posted by: www.ediedson.com | July 29, 2009 8:41 AM
Enter the site of the plastic artist Ed Edson, Brazil is a very good
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 29, 2009 8:47 AM
Well I live here, and yes it is hot as hell and twice as humid.
What is your take on people eating beef?
Posted by: John Morales | July 29, 2009 8:47 AM
me2 @386, par for the course, but I'm rather amused by the use of scare quotes. These clearly serve the rhetorical purposes of maintaining a fiction of politeness by being euphemistic, and of distancing themselves from the true sentiments being expressed.
I see it regularly in the comment threads here, and it similarly amuses me.
Posted by: Stephen Wells | July 29, 2009 8:51 AM
shyster, if PZ had destroyed the Bamiyan Buddhas, you might have a point. Crackers- not so much. Not unique, not special.
Posted by: shyster | July 29, 2009 9:09 AM
I spent years there and it was hotter when no one had AC. If I remember correctly summer got to about 200 degrees (in the shade) with 125% humidity.
I love beef, not so much in hamburger form. Rare prime rib and milk-fed veal works for me.
How did we get to meat questions?
Posted by: a lurker | July 29, 2009 9:11 AM
On the subject of possibility of bag searches: it might not be a good idea to bring in large bags anyways. Why risk it? Even under the best of times, security is going be suspicious of people with bags larger than a modest lady's purse and backpacks. Your personal items will undoubtedly be safe in the trunk of your cars: no thief is going to try to break in with all that security not to mention the fact that there will always be a lot of potential witnesses in the parking lot.
Posted by: ajbjasus | July 29, 2009 9:13 AM
Oh dear - I think this is going to end badly. I'm certain they'll find some excuse to cancel or kick you out, and generate PR for themselves.
I also hate the thought of "organised groups of athiests". Such things seem like the opposite of how I see myself.
I'm crossing my fingers for you. Good luck.
Posted by: shyster | July 29, 2009 9:16 AM
#393, you consider the Buddhas works of art and would protect them. I would also protect them from destruction because they are works of art.
I would not piss on them (even recognizing that my atheist piss would cause no permanent damage) because they are an important symbol of someone's faith. I would also love to argue religion with Buddah (and I wouldn't piss on him either).
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
July 29, 2009 9:25 AM
Oh poor Shyster. Still concerned about tone. Still full of shit.
The beef question is because Hindu's consider the cow sacred, and by eating beef, as a hamburger, you are conducting blasphemy and desecration against their beliefs. That is why those who really think through these problems realize that there is no way not to offend someone no matter what you do. So, we make decisions and then live with the consequences like any adult (which leaves you out). Sometimes one must purposely offend people in order to get their attention. Like when I, and atheist, give JW's a lesson in the golden rule.
Posted by: shyster | July 29, 2009 9:37 AM
"Well, all German Shepherds are Alsatians, if you want an apposite analogy."
Wrong again, Fifi. The AKC lists a German Shepherd as a registered and accepted breed. Alsatians are NOT listed.
PS: Nerd, if I was in India and in the home of a devout hindu I would not ask for beef, nor would I piss on his cow.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 29, 2009 9:40 AM
twogirlsonebible.com
hehe...
doubledongbible.com
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
|
July 29, 2009 9:43 AM
It did. PZ made repeated mentions that disrupting a church service is out of bounds. This is no different.
Posted by: Tsu Dho Nimh | July 29, 2009 9:47 AM
I worked in a children's museum for a while, so cat/kitten-herding is a skill we were taught.
To herd the little atheist kittens, you need at least TWO shepherds. One leads the way through the exhibits, and the other one follows to make sure no one falls behind or hides in the exhibits. If you have a group larger than 10 kittens, you intersperse the shepherds in the group every 10-12 kittens, or have them be flankers.
When looking at and discussing an exhibit, the shepherds stand slightly behind the group at either side to prevent the kittens from bolting or sliding out the rear of the group, and to prevent pedo-bear from attacking the kittens.
This lets the docent explain the exhibit without having to worry about kitten-herding.
*************
"Anonymous" has developed some ways to handle people who want to blend with their anti-Scientology protests and provoke crap from the cops and Scientology security guards:
Everyone near the obnoxious one steps away from them, turns towards them and POINTS at them, or sits down on the sidewalk, looks at them and POINTS at them. It's a really interesting tactic, because the person is outed, blamed, and shamed seconds after they yell something like "kill the cops, burn the building".
Also: Anyone who starts a disturbance is immediately videotaped and photographed by as many people who have cameras as possible ... with the intent of having a record of who swung first, who said what. (Even if it's your own, tape them, because a minor disturbance can become huge after the fact if there is not independent record)
In the museum, if you don't know the obnoxious one ... put several yards of clear floor between you and them. Don't turn your back on them, but back off and keep your hands down or arms crossed.
To evade an annoyance of the opposite sex, retreat to the restrooms. If they follow you in, go into a stall and lock it.
To retreat from an annoyance of the same sex, silently head for a security guard ... They will have to follow you, berating you as you retreat.
If their security tells you to leave, say "yes sir/mam" and leave silently.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
|
July 29, 2009 9:49 AM
@truthspeaker: I'm sorry for the tone I took in my response to you. I read your comment about the police almost immediately after reading about the man who got tasered by Alabama police, so it set me off.
Posted by: BdN | July 29, 2009 9:56 AM
shyster:
See NoR @368:
I agree with you, shyster : I wouldn't stomp on a cracker nor piss on it in a church, during service, with a horde of devout Christians behind me.
That's not what happened.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
|
July 29, 2009 10:02 AM
Well, sure. Because if you have affairs furtively, while lying to your spouse, you won't catch any diseases.
Or are they implying that theists have less extramarital sex than atheists? I'd love to see the studies supporting that. I thought half the thrill of an illicit affair is the risk of getting caught.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
July 29, 2009 10:12 AM
Shyster, you are a work of misplaced concern. All your concerns have been noted. The notes then went into the dumpster, where they belong. We'll find a minature violin to play during your next rant against the evil uncaring Pharyngulites. Meanwhile, ever stop to think that we find you unnecessary concern offensive as it goes against our beliefs? Welcome to the world of overthinking PC.
Posted by: Richard | July 29, 2009 10:13 AM
Why would people wear a t-shirt of any kind?
The goal would be to look like respectable, upstanding members of the community. I'd dress like I was visiting a nice art museum or going to hear a piece of classical music.
That might send a much stronger message than 'clever' t-shirts.
Posted by: Gindy | July 29, 2009 10:17 AM
Do any other museums require you to sign documents attesting to your behavior or is this the only one? Is your group the only one required to sign them?
Posted by: shyster | July 29, 2009 10:25 AM
Have a problem staying on point do we, Nerd?
I'm fairly sure that my eating beef in my home is not going to offend someone in India.
I will not that I have several Moslem friends. When they come to my home I do not serve pork. It's my home and I can do what I want, they observe and I respect that even if I don't believe it.
If by PC you mean personal courtesy, then I do believe in that.
This truly has gone on too long. PZ, have fun at the museum and please don't piss on any hindu cows.
Posted by: Absurdist | July 29, 2009 10:27 AM
So a t-shirt depicting Lot's daughters seducing him in bed is ok? It's very much Biblical.
Posted by: nuclear.kelly | July 29, 2009 10:32 AM
@Gindy - don't think of it as a museum so much as a nightclub or casino. Casinos reserve the right to search your stuff and kick you out if they don't like you, precisely because they are private. This isn't the Metropolitan Museum of Art. This is the Bellagio.
Additionally, several friends of mine took their own "tour" of the Creation Museum a year or so ago. Be forwarned - the museum security staff are big, scary-looking, and armed.
Posted by: BdN | July 29, 2009 10:36 AM
So, why would "desecrating" a cracker in your home offend anyone ?
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
July 29, 2009 10:49 AM
Shyster, you keep missing the point. You might have one if you can prove the following, which you seem to imply with your ignorance:
1) PZ broke into a cat-o-lick church or disrupted a mass to steal a cracker.
2) PZ then desecrated the cracker in the church.
Failure to prove both items, which from the history of Crackergate presented here are both false, mean you are nothing but a concerned liar. Time to look at the truth and recognize you are out of line. And how hypocritcal you are with your own beliefs. The last subject is the one we are discussing.
Posted by: Bernard Bumner
|
July 29, 2009 10:55 AM
Pffft! As though the American Kennel Club matters in such things.
Alsatian (or Alsatian Wolf Dog) was a name adopted by The Kennel Club after WWI. It remains an accepted alternative, even though it was withdrawn as the offical breed name in the '70s. Still, the OED recognises the name, so the AKC's opinion on the matter isn't very relevant, is it?
Posted by: brian | July 29, 2009 11:06 AM
After reading David Blaylock's (Security Chief) letter to the SSA I realized all he was doing is asking one simple favor ...don't act like a Christian.
Posted by: shyster | July 29, 2009 11:15 AM
Bdn, thy name is obtuse. It's not the cracker, it was PZ solicitation of members of his flock to swipe one for the purpose of desecration that was the issue. The only way cracker gate became an issue is obtaining a "consecrated" cracker for the purpose of cracker abuse and ensuring that the 'licks knew what he was trying to do and why.
Bernard, AKC seems to be the gold standard and they don't list it. The fact that some do and some don't supports my point that not all German Sheps are Alsatians. Fifi's attempt at a condescending jab failed.
Nerd, who the hell put you in charge? I never said either of your points and don't have to prove anything to you. Small mind, thy name is Nerd.
Like Michael Corrleone, you keep dragging me back in. This time I am more than done with this post and this thread.
Posted by: Bernard Bumner
|
July 29, 2009 11:38 AM
The ACK certainly isn't the gold standard on this one, because it was The Kennel Club (i.e. the UK organisation) who recognised the name, not the ACK. The fact is that anyone who uses the term Alsatian would clearly recognise any German Shepard Dog to be one and the same thing.
Posted by: C S Martin | July 29, 2009 11:58 AM
(a letter by myself addressed to the museum)
I am a Canadian Christian (and former youth pastor) in Calgary, Canada, and using stumbleupon, I have come across this (see website below). The group which you are about to facilitate has an excellent representative, however, the people following seem to be not-so-well mannered, and could be expected to act in poor conduct. From what I can tell, they are merely students who look up to their leader, and most of them are just trying to gain his/her respect; however, statistically, about 2% could be expected to be disruptive (based on crowd mentality), which means that four people could act very inappropriate, and thus, leading a large percentage of the group to follow suit.
Thank you for your time, and I hope you act on this information with the best intentions for both groups involved. (maybe by asking the representative to weed out the problematic people in the group so the rest of them can enjoy their experience. Remember; it is not your job to pass judgment, but to deliver the message of the Bible as best as you can tell it. From there, it is up to the individual to decide how they act upon the information. I will be posting a "cc" of this message on their website so they know also that you have received it, and I am not playing favorites for one side or the other.
Thank You!
C S Martin
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/the_creation_museum_has_given.php
Posted by: C S Martin | July 29, 2009 12:00 PM
(a letter by myself addressed to the museum)
I am a Canadian Christian (and former youth pastor) in Calgary, Canada, and using stumbleupon, I have come across this (see website below). The group which you are about to facilitate has an excellent representative, however, the people following seem to be not-so-well mannered, and could be expected to act in poor conduct. From what I can tell, they are merely students who look up to their leader, and most of them are just trying to gain his/her respect; however, statistically, about 2% could be expected to be disruptive (based on crowd mentality), which means that four people could act very inappropriate, and thus, leading a large percentage of the group to follow suit.
Thank you for your time, and I hope you act on this information with the best intentions for both groups involved. (maybe by asking the representative to weed out the problematic people in the group so the rest of them can enjoy their experience. Remember; it is not your job to pass judgment, but to deliver the message of the Bible as best as you can tell it. From there, it is up to the individual to decide how they act upon the information. I will be posting a "cc" of this message on their website so they know also that you have received it, and I am not playing favorites for one side or the other.
Thank You!
C S Martin
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/the_creation_museum_has_given.php
Posted by: LanceR, JSG
|
July 29, 2009 12:13 PM
Thank you, C S Martin, for your concern. Your concern has been noted, and will receive all due consideration.
Posted by: aratina cage
|
July 29, 2009 12:17 PM
We've been guessing about the H. in Jesus H. Christ all morning, why not guess what the C S stands for in C S Martin. Crock of Shit Martin?
Posted by: druidbros | July 29, 2009 12:21 PM
Dear Janitor,
You are just projecting your crap beliefs on PZ and Co. We do not generally round up and shoot other groups like you did to my Native American relatives. We haven't even suggested it. And of course, we dont force our beliefs on others or try to force them to live according to our rules. Which leads me to not be surprised your job is a janitor. Wait.... I think I just heard there is a clean-up on Aisle 7.. hop on it ...
Posted by: Bosch's Poodle | July 29, 2009 12:32 PM
I recently visited this detestable museum with three essentially atheist friends (one a social scientist, one an MD student, and one a Korean Buddhist) and have several observations for your group.
First, right after you buy your tickets, you will be essentially forced to pose for pictures in front of one or two pieces of scenery. I nearly got tossed out of the museum at this point because I attempted to refuse having my picture taken (the evidence of my visit, if it got out, would be mortifying). The museum insisted. Think carefully about whether you want to allow them to force you into having your picture taken there.
Two, I have to say the whole experience is completely deflating and demoralizing. The production values are very high. The place was packed with families and children when we visited on a Tuesday. The reasoning is cretinous, sub-illiterate. What struck me was that the museum doesn't even try to make its arguments worthy of critical consideration. The arguments are utterly laughable. One room was filled with dinosaur fossils (or reproductions) and every single specimen had a plaque dating it to precisely 2348 BC or some such. A fossil of a thorn is shown and dated to some or other particular date, and the accompanying plaque explains that we know when the thorny plant lived because thorns didn't exist before The Fall.
Another site explains that weeds - weeds - didn't exist before The Fall. The Creation Museum is objectively anti-"weed."
Spoiler: The Men in White movie is positively retarded, but production values are high and the seats will spray you in the face with water at unexpected moments. Best to remove your glasses.
What is demoralizing is that you tend to work up this frothy rage at the absurdity of the reasoning displayed, this energetic amazement that anybody could possible read these things and not laugh, and yet it goes on for hours and hours. It's really exhausting. At the end of the trip I felt completely defeated. I felt as if a tidal wave of ignorance and lies had nearly drowned me.
Another note: We were respectful at all times, although we talked to each other in normal tones and did not hide the fact that the exhibits were idiotic. It's fun to mock the cretins who believe this stuff on a website, but when you face hundreds of them and they clearly love their kids, and when the audience is not universally pasty-white as I had expected but fairly diverse, it's impossible not to come away feeling depressed and a little overwhelmed. Ken Ham's "museum" doesn't even try to make credible arguments and yet it fulfills its purpose.
Posted by: BdN | July 29, 2009 12:47 PM
Well, I know you're gone, shyster, but I'll ask anyways. Sorry if I'm obtuse and slow to understand those kinds of logical outcomes.
Two questions:
-To get back to the sacred cow analogy, does this mean that if there was solicitation to get a cow slaughtered for the purpose of beef abuse and letting Hindus know it, it would become the same kind of issue ?
-Contrary to popular belief, among some Christians as well, it IS possible AND permitted to take a consecrated cracker out of Church using a pyx, and not only by a priest : my mother used to get some for sick neighbours. So, my question is : since you imply that the issue comes from the INTENTION, and not the desecration itself, does it mean that it would NOT be an issue if I happened to stumble upon my mother's pyx by chance, desecrate a cracker and post it on my blog without any note nor egregious title ?
Posted by: Paul Lundgren | July 29, 2009 12:50 PM
Dr. Myers,
Is this so the bad ideas don't get past the door? How DO you train a thought-sniffing dog, anyway?And if these dogs are trained to sniff out thoughts involving masturbating lesbians, I'm afraid I'm toast.
[end snark]
Good luck, have fun, and do us all proud.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
|
July 29, 2009 12:57 PM
@C S Martin: I'm sure the Creation Museum will appreciate your email. Like you, they also make themselves feel better by inventing fake "facts" without actually trying to learn anything about the real world.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
July 29, 2009 1:04 PM
Shyster, you have showed no evidence that PZ did anything wrong. That is my point. Until you do, you are another inane concern troll who deserves to be ridiculed until you stop posting.
It is amusing that when PZ asked his readers for a cracker, most of those he received were ones people had in their closets. No masses were disrupted by cracker stealing. Show me evidence otherwise and you gain credibility.
Posted by: Eamon Knight | July 29, 2009 1:06 PM
First, right after you buy your tickets, you will be essentially forced to pose for pictures in front of one or two pieces of scenery.
I wonder if they'll still want to take pictures, given the proposed attire for this event ;-). However, this seems to be SOP at many attractions today: take your pic, then try to sell it to you as a souvenir at the exit. The Empire State Building did this when we went in 2004 -- you had to get you picture taken before exiting to the viewing deck (though I suspect there might also have been a secondary, security angle).
Ken Ham's "museum" doesn't even try to make credible arguments and yet it fulfills its purpose.
This matches the impression I have from previous visitors: they're telling their own story, but it's all preaching to the choir with no serious attempt to present real arguments to the skeptic. If you're not already at least half in their camp when you go in, you won't be when you come out.
Posted by: Jack
|
July 29, 2009 1:11 PM
Damn, I wish I could join you folks in this.
Take lots of cameras, guys. Don't let 'em get away with anything without recording it for later exposure.
Posted by: Patricia, OM | July 29, 2009 1:12 PM
CS = Completely Stupid. :p
Posted by: No Bs | July 29, 2009 1:14 PM
OT
Friday, August 7th, independent film release The Cove;
http://thecovemovie.com/
Go to link for the trailer.
Over 21,000 dolphin are slaughtered each year in Japan because the are considered pests.
Posted by: bookishboy | July 29, 2009 1:22 PM
For what it's worth, I recommend that you coordinate with the Museum's security ahead of time so that both you *and* they can account for who, exactly, are members of your group.... and therefore any behavior resulting from your visit.
I can easily imagine a scenario in which your group gets joined by a few Christian agents-provocateurs. It wouldn't take very much for a few to show up, meld in with your group, dress somewhat slovenly and then start arguments with other museum-goers, or begin a faux protest.
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | July 29, 2009 1:27 PM
What amazes me is the sheer gall of the organisers to call this thing the creation "museum". Usually museums are concerned with providing exhibits that express aspects of factual historical events or artifacts that give the viewer some sense of the beliefs, culture or artistic aesthetic of a given civilisation. Museums most certainly do not seek to polemnicise or promote a singular theistic (or, for that matter, atheistic) worldview. To talk of a creation museum is the equivalent of having a flat earth museum. Not to examin the origins of flat earth belief or its cultural significance in the period but to promote flat earth belief today. Just one more example of theists' immunity to little things like reason and hard scientific evidence I suppose.
Posted by: DingoJack | July 29, 2009 1:40 PM
I'm guessing this is out as a T shirt design then.
"What do mean 'offensive'? It's our Saviour as a light switch, officer!". :D - DJ
Posted by: DingoJack | July 29, 2009 1:46 PM
Ok since this link won't work, try this then:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/01/25/turn_jesus_on.jpg - DJ
Stupid fucking link-sucking rimming site!!
Posted by: Genereaver | July 29, 2009 2:21 PM
@431:
See #401. It works amazingly.
Posted by: KatieJoy | July 29, 2009 2:33 PM
This shirt: http://www.threadless.com/product/368/Biblical_Disaster#zoom
Yes/No?
Posted by: Phoenix Woman | July 29, 2009 2:40 PM
Why do I have the feeling that Triple-X and 777 are two sockpuppets belonging to the same person?
Posted by: Carlie | July 29, 2009 2:59 PM
I nearly got tossed out of the museum at this point because I attempted to refuse having my picture taken (the evidence of my visit, if it got out, would be mortifying). The museum insisted.
WWhat if you said you had taken a vow to God to never have your picture taken again, so as to help you control the sins of Pride and Vanity?
Posted by: Eamon Knight | July 29, 2009 3:18 PM
Re TheVirginian @330: Fair enough, and I thank you. I guess our argument (if any) would now be down to quibbling over the meaning of "good standing".
My knowledge on this is admittedly at no more than a Wikipedia level, but I am under the impression that there is some genuine doubt as to Hitler's personal religious views -- Catholic, Protestant, some idiosyncratic nationalist Christianity, or that weird quasi-paganism some of his cronies were into. However, AFAIK there is no credible evidence that "atheist" is one of the possibilities, notwithstanding claims to that effect from lying scum-bucket evangelists.
In any case, none of the answers get the churches off the hook -- aside from a few shining examples (alas: too little, too late), they were complicit.
Posted by: Everbleed | July 29, 2009 3:31 PM
Everyone should wear burkas.
Make a real statement.
Take orthodoxy to its logical extreme.
And make everyone look like a black plastic trash bag.
http://www.alhannah.com
alhannah.com sells nice burkas from Lebanon for only $35 bucks!
Posted by: Supercorgi | July 29, 2009 4:17 PM
I think you should have a bunch of business cards printed up with just the TalkOrigins URL and then secret them all over the museum.
Posted by: Qwerty | July 29, 2009 4:42 PM
From the Creationist Museum website:
"The Petting Zoo is included in the price of admission. There you can feed a zonkey (zebra/donkey), a zorse (zebra/horse), a camel, wallabies, and other intriguing animals. "
Is this there version of the crocoduck?
Posted by: BdN | July 29, 2009 5:04 PM
Well, actually, zorses and zonkeys are both known hybrids (a zonkey was even mentionned in The Origin of Species)but, obviously, they are both sterile.
And I guess it would be the exact opposite of a "crocoduck" : they must use it to show how these animals are from the same "kind".
Posted by: Eamon Knight | July 29, 2009 5:51 PM
Wow, there's a lot of paranoia on this thread.
OK, I don't trust creationists any farther than I can throw them either, but really -- agent provocateurs? Manufacturing a disturbance and getting people arrested? Yes, these people are batshit insane on certain issues, but they aren't globally stupid. While the Great Creation Museum Atheist Riot of 2009 might look good on the news (and in the pews) -- what a persecution story! -- there's a lot that can go wrong with that plan, and even someone nasty-minded enough to think of it (and I don't believe that, on the whole, these people are that nasty) should see that. It's *also* good PR to greet the crowd of infidels with the epitome of soft-spoken politeness, welcoming warm handshakes, and generally display the Smiling Love Of Jeezus. They do after all, want to convert all and sundry, and you don't do that by tossing your prospects in jail. I predict the worst hazard the group will face is having to endure a lot of overdone friendliness and saccharine smiles.
Feel free to tell me I'm a naive Canadian who doesn't "get" the true evilness of mid-America fundamentalism -- but if I turn out to be right, you have to admit it publicly afterwards ;-).
Posted by: Lynna | July 29, 2009 6:05 PM
@444
I think you're probably right. Your comment brought to mind the discussion with Ray Comfort that Thunderf00t posted on youtube. At one point, Comfort tells Thunderf00t that he would rescue anyone threatened with being run over by a car, and that the rescue he wants to effect of Thunderf00t is even more important. Comfort loves Thunderf00t and wants to save him. Sort of a passive-aggressive approach: I love you and I want to save you. If you say no to being loved you are obviously a bad person. Makes me squirm.
I commented on PZ's post announcing the Creation Museum visit being green-lighted that I thought the smiles from the museum staff would be the most dangerous things one would encounter.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 29, 2009 6:22 PM
"This is awesome, I eagerly await your visit to a Native American museum, and the report of your after-party mocking of their culture and beliefs. Hilarious!"
Yeah,as soon as we start trying to force our mythology on you and your children, I invite you all to do so.
Actually they do. Google Kenniwick man
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 29, 2009 6:31 PM
One incident that hardly qualifies outside some legal gymnastics.
Posted by: anonymous | July 29, 2009 6:39 PM
Not the only incident. There is also a lot of hostility to the comparison of the genetics of different ethnic groups around the world.
The Kenniwick man affair involved the destruction of archeological evidence. This is far more serious than anything that creationist have done.
Posted by: DingoJack | July 29, 2009 6:39 PM
Anonymous - Wow that's really interesting. It's a damn shame it doesn't actually prove your point (in fact rather contradicts it). Nevermind I'll give a B+ for effort and C- for reading comprehension. - DJ
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man as a start point)
Posted by: DingoJack | July 29, 2009 6:48 PM
Anonymous - The bones were found by accident by spectators at a hydroplane race. The bones had been fragmented and scattered across the reservoir by erosion.
Destruction of archaeological evidence was perpetrated by natural forces, this helps prove you post how exactly? - DJ
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 29, 2009 6:49 PM
You've got to be kidding.
Posted by: Angie | July 29, 2009 6:56 PM
My good friend and I went to the museum to see what they were up to. It had not opened yet but they were conducting tours while it was being finished. I was outraged that the guide suggested that science education in the schools was based on lies and could not be trusted. The definately were pushing home schooling so they could mold the little minds of their children into creationists. The bookstore was full of books that told how it was that the Grand Canyon was made in a few short years and there were dinosaur rides for the kids so they could see what it must have been like when humans and dinosaurs coexisted!
We were shocked and dismayed that this was being built so close to my home. Fortunately it has not been the big deal they all thought it would be.
Get ready for a strange bunch of people who have been brainwashed. It is not a religion. It is a cult.
Posted by: anonymous | July 29, 2009 6:57 PM
Anthropologist allege that afterwards the whole area where the skeleton was found was covered over under the pretext of erosion control.
There is significant opposition to this sort of work as it contradicts native creation mythology.
Your dislike of creationists may lead you to exagerate their importance, there are other more serious threats to science. I could be wrong, but I have never heard of them destroying scientific evidence.
Do you want a seperate thread to argue this out ?
Posted by: John Morales | July 29, 2009 7:03 PM
You could use the open thread.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 29, 2009 7:09 PM
Oh, I by no means think that creationists are the only significant threat to science, but you seem to be ignoring the widespread attempt by creationists to deny the very existence of evidence (including archeological evidence) then mandate that it be taught this way. The fear of retaliation that this creates in teaches causes them to basically skip teaching evolution in many classrooms. Not only that but the erosion of understanding and trusting of the scientific method fostered by the repeated attempts by creationists to destroy science education along side the idiotic pronouncements of their supporters in government and churches does widespread damage to the very foundation of science. Attempting to destroy evidence is bad, but attempting to destroy the public's trust of science and how future generations understand it is much more widespread and damaging.
If people don't trust science then be sure that people aren't going to care about destruction of an archeological find here and there.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
July 29, 2009 7:12 PM
Anonymous, could you pick another moniker and stick with it? Or add a number? We have had several people use anonymous, and it is hard for us to figure out who is who. The thread suggested by John Morales #454 is good place to discuss anything.
Posted by: Stu
|
July 29, 2009 7:15 PM
It is not a religion. It is a cult.
The difference being...?
Posted by: DingoJack | July 29, 2009 7:15 PM
anonymous - nope cause it's a non-starter. Covering a site to prevent erosion is not unknown in archeology, the modern layer isn't hard to discern from the ancient one, and it prevents loss or movement of finds. As noted above the site was disturbed by erosion and weathering before scientist reached the scene, the bones were not in situ. What Anthropologists think about archaeological methods aren't relevant, firstly because it's not their field and secondly because the finds are not related to the current populations. That science contradicts their myths is not really unexpected by archaeologists, anthropologists and the native peoples too I'd suspect, that's what science does, it challenges. Science has challenged creation myths before and the believes managed to survive somehow. This isn't a very good example for the argument your trying to mount, try another. -DJ
Posted by: Andrew | July 29, 2009 8:36 PM
@221
These are great suggestions. I used to be a camp counselor and I can not tell you funny it is to watch large groups of adults behave almost exactly as immature as large groups of middle preschoolers.
And I used to be in the "skeptical christian" camp. You're always invited to come hang out with the heathens. I for one love people with different beliefs because they are always the most fun to have winding philosophical discussions with.
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | July 29, 2009 8:53 PM
[/echo of Poor Ol' Pap]Seriously, have a good time but give no one cause to regret your presence. Be calm, a little serene, perhaps. Be self possessed and move about with ease and purpose. Appear, as best you can, to be perfectly comfortable. Doing so will send an understated message that atheists are already as cool as creationists would be if what they believe were true. In other words, display to the nervous, anticipatory patrons of the "museum" something very like what they think they already have; the "peace that passeth all understanding". You would be showing strength.
I assume some of the faithful will take note and be impressed enough that questions will arise almost immediately in their minds and as quickly forgotten, many more will feel a bit queasy and seek distraction and a few will be quite galled. Some small remainder may be moved to reassess a fundamental assumption or two.
In any case, you can't lose if you leave your hosts as you would like to be left by your guests. Play your cards right and you could get an invitation to return. Then you would be showing power.
Posted by: druidbros | July 29, 2009 9:00 PM
Really? You cannot be considered a serious thinker and hold that view. What about the creationist who murdered Dr Tiller?
Posted by: Greg Laden | July 29, 2009 10:00 PM
naked lesbians masturbating with bibles will give them an excuse to throw you out, so don't do it.
But I paid good money for that shirt, where else am I going to wear it!!!!
Posted by: Ken Cope | July 29, 2009 10:20 PM
As per Shermer, the difference between a cult and a religion is about 50 years. LDS was just getting respectable, when $centoogy was about to be perpetrated on the seekers born every minute. Eventually those jello-loving Mormons got religion status; they've got Senators and a shitload of political clout today; just look at Prop 8. It won't be long before we'll be taken to task for laughing our asses off at people who take Thetans and E-Metering seriously, for our rude failure to be properly accommodationist.Posted by: TheBob | July 29, 2009 10:56 PM
Here's a fairly easy way to avoid the whole "planted troublemaker" thing: wear very visible (but tasteful) group identification.
You've already centralized the ticket mechanism, so the core infrastructure is in place. All you'd need to do is come up with a button, wristband, or laminated badge to commemorate the experience, and the participants are likely to WANT to wear them. Sure, maybe it adds a buck to everybody's cost - but that's cheap for a souvenir of this event. I'd recommend something like a laminated badge on a lanyard, myself - easily identifiable at a distance and on video.
And that way, if somebody causes trouble, it'll be really obvious if he's really part of the group or not.
Posted by: ex-anonymous | July 29, 2009 11:28 PM
-Tiller was murdered because he was carrying out abortions, wrong, but nothing to do with creationism.
-burying the remains of Kenniwick man would quickly destroy any archeological evidence in the remains. There are efforts to rebury all pre-Colombian human remains, this will mean that scientific knowledge is lost forever. This is a much more serious threat to science than anything that isolated, discredited groups of creationists can do.
-opposing this would take political courage, something that is not needed in "fighting creationism"
Why are you spending your time attacking a museum that will have no real impact on science, when there are so many more real threats to our work ? The creationists are powerless in the world of science, don't you have better things to do ?
Posted by: bakalorz | July 29, 2009 11:36 PM
A T-shirt suggestion or two
http://controversy.wearscience.com/design/coexistence/
http://controversy.wearscience.com/design/devil/
I like the 2nd one better, but depending on their beliefs and interpretation it might be banned.
The first one mocks by Poe, and they can't throw you out for agreeing with them without being absolutely hypocritical
(I'd almost expect some of them to want to buy them themselves)
Posted by: John Morales | July 29, 2009 11:53 PM
Ex-An:
The creationists aren't powerless in the world of politics, public opinion or education, alas.
Click on the category "creationism" at the top of this post to see many, many instances of this.
As for having "better things to do", promoting science and challenging pseudo-science is a rather laudable goal, as I see it.
Posted by: Paul Murray | July 30, 2009 12:04 AM
"Anyone want to bet that a creationist will show up pretending to be an atheist and cause a ruckus?"
This is a real concern - the use of agents provocateur. You seriously must have plans in place to deal with this.
Posted by: LarryB | July 30, 2009 12:30 AM
I think you're all in a tremendously admirable position....
They're expecting horribly-dressed animals....
The entire group should show up looking like Baptists on Easter Sunday. All men in immaculately-pressed, CONSERVATIVE suits. All women in "churchy dresses", high necks, below-the-knee skirts, no skin. The whole group shows up WITH THE MEDIA TAKING PICTURES FOR PUBLICATIONS, looking like bankers at a board meeting. The effects on museum staff would be devastating!
This wasn't my idea, by the way, back in the 1960's our high school football team ALWAYS showed up on the bus impeccably dressed like IBM executives giving the illusion we were a pushover to beat. Then, we'd pound them into the ground on the field, astonished. I've seen the effects just stun our opponents.
Slouch dress is a missed opportunity at this joint!
Posted by: LarryB | July 30, 2009 12:48 AM
I missed one....
Will the university be donating one of its many DINOSAUR bones to the "museum" as a token of your appreciation, as guests, during this auspicious occasion?
I'm sure, back there in the vault, the Biology Department has some really big, but unimportant to science, dino bones that are WAY older than the 6000 years the museum's founders are brainwashing the children with, right?
A nice, historic "presentation" at the outset of the visit, especially if the group were all dressed up as I suggested above, WITH MEDIA COVERAGE FOR IMPORTANT PEOPLE TO SEE, would set a "new tone" in your relationships....
....one that would be very hard to explain away for the press and legislators reading it tomorrow...Capice?
Posted by: village1diot | July 30, 2009 1:52 AM
But what about me? I'm gonna be there as an atheist in some "atheist thug" clothing. Ready to tear down that place, I'm going to go nutter on them. And there is nothing you can say to me.
But don't worry if I get caught I'll claim to be an undercover Christian. They will just forgive me and let me on my merry way.
Posted by: ermine | July 30, 2009 3:07 AM
(Warning, long! But at least when I'm done you'll probably have a much better idea of how I really feel about the whole matter than if I'd just said "Me too!" or "I disagree, you're stupid!", right?)
All this talk about 'marking everyone so they know who is really one of them' seems to miss one facet; There's nothing keeping any possible agents provocateur from signing up with the SSA just like everyone else, so they'd BE part of your party. The only thing marking people would do would be prevent the hypothetical agents from infiltrating the group after the tour had begun. Not to say that wouldn't be useful all by itself, but it would not be the panacea that has been implied.
No, I like some of the suggestions of a couple of earlier posts though, like the idea that if someone starts acting out, everyone immediately stop, clear away from them a bit, and do something to make it clear that they weren't with anyone else in the party and were acting on their own and against the wishes of everyone else. I don't know how well the 'pointing at them' idea would go, but it was one of my favorite of the lot.
I don't know how high I'd really put the risk of it happening, but we are dealing with known liars after all, and pooh-poohing the mere idea that it could happen entirely would be foolish in the extreme. Having a plan for the eventuality is the sort of preparation that can turn a potential fiasco into a huge win.
And to Larryb @ #469:
This is over 200 atheists we're talking about here! I wouldn't ask nor expect them all to show up in their Sunday best. For myself, after 20+ years of being forced to wear bad suits one day a week and then another two years in a suit full-time on my mission, I hate suits with an abiding passion. Wear one for a whole day out with what I expect will be a lot of FUN people, just so the pearl-clutchers will have one less excuse to find fault with? No thanks!
If they want to find faults, they will. Like I said earlier, I'd prefer to see the videos of them trying to throw people out for darwin fish and scarlet 'A' t-shirts.
I know that *my* 'going out for the day to have fun' outfit would certainly not consist of a suit just so the prudes wouldn't be annoyed at my 'lack of respect'. I have a sneaking suspicion that the vast majority of their visitors come in their everyday clothes and not their Sunday best. Not the families out for the day, not the church social groups, and not the 'field trips' by schools, scouting, or other organizations.
There's a PETTING ZOO at this one, for cripes sake! Do you know how long the smell of them will stick to your clothes? Back when I still lived at home and was able to visit the zoo frequently, my mother could tell in an instant which clothes I'd worn to the zoo. Petting zoo goats and mules will also try to eat just about anything they can get hold of, at least they did in the zoos I've frequented over the past few decades. Do you really want everyone to go there and risk having a goat (or something) take a bite out of an expensive suit or dress or three just to look a little more 'respectable' to the creationists? I wouldn't wear my 'Sunday best' to go a *Science* museum for sure! Science can be messy, and a good science museum is likely to have enough interactive exhibits to get ones clothes good and dirty by the time they're done.
In my opinion, any of those 200+ who want to dress up in their best, more power to them. As long as the rest look reasonably reputable, they should be welcome, just like all the thousands of similarly-dressed people that they have welcomed in with open arms up to this date. If anyone at the 'museum' has trouble with anything that isn't outright obscene or blasphemous, I want them to have to SAY something about it, just so their pearl-clutching, hypocritical prudery is out in the open and preserved for all to see.
People might want to bring along an extra shirt if they wear something that they think might cause trouble, (And by that I mean 'Something that would be perfectly okay anywhere else in the world except in -this- instance, where the prudes have the power and the sudden desire to keep those people out', not something that is borderline obscene or obviously and hurtfully blasphemous.), but I think those who want to wear clothing with pithy sayings on it should be more than welcome to. If I were able to go, there's no way in hell you'd convince me to wear a suit rather than something comfortable and just a little bit snarky.
I can't think of anywhere else in the world except purely religious events where a Darwin-fish hat or t-shirt would be grounds for expulsion. Oh, plenty of places where *any* t-shirt would be a problem, but for the message alone, and something as tame as that? No way. I say make em try! Is this a museum or a church? Make up your minds now, because the whole world will see your answer!
I'm very much against the idea of having to listen to the people on 'my side' trying to push everyone into something as stifling as Larryb described. That's the trouble with having such an enormously heterogeneous group as 'atheists' though, there's only one, completely dogma-free point of congruence in every mind in the group - simply that none of them believe in god, ANY god. I suppose you have as much right to suggest their clothing and deportment as I do to dislike it, but now I've made my own opinion clear. I don't like it! ;)
Posted by: Rick R | July 30, 2009 3:52 AM
Ugh. The more I see of this "museum", the more nauseated I get.
They even have what looks like a "hell wall", a strange brick wall covered with ripped and torn news articles showcasing all the evils that come with not being a biblical literalist or the right kind of christian. Bathed in scary blood-red lighting, of course.
Are they crying about the children that die in poverty, or unnecessary and immoral wars? Seniors that have to choose between food, and necessary medication? Starving children in Africa?
No. It's all Terry Schiavo, stem cell research, and teh GAY!!!!!!!1one!!
I saw a comment on a similar photo that said "So, hell is full of bad decoupage?"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scalzi/1969173809/sizes/o/in/set-72157603091357751/
christian morality my ass.
It's probably a good thing I'm not going. I'm not 100% sure I could keep my shit under control in that place.
Posted by: Rick R | July 30, 2009 4:02 AM
Can you imagine a real museum having a wall dedicated to a display showcasing "who you should hate"???
My brain hurts.
Posted by: NoFear | July 30, 2009 4:07 AM
$.02
I think the idea to wear shirts with the raunchiest bible verses is the best. You know all those verses that bible thumpers like to ignore, that preachers never preach from? Even better if you an get a graphic to go along with the verse. There are many places that make custom t-shirts on the spot with at least textual content. Also, inkjet iron-on transfers can be had in which case one can make their own custom shirt, with text and graphics, in no time.
Posted by: Flamethorn | July 30, 2009 5:28 AM
Damn, it's hot when PZ abandons the fluff and starts just flat out issuing orders.
Posted by: ChrisKG | July 30, 2009 6:55 AM
This is just an idea, but if everyone wore a T-shirt that was pro-Christian or "no point of view T-shirt" they would have no idea who to kick out. Why make it too obvious? Just a thought.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 30, 2009 7:35 AM
Agreed
You're coming off as fairly ignorant if you think that creationists are "discredited". Among scientists, sure. No argument there but among the public? Hell no. Just look at any polls on what people believe. The loss of scientific knowledge and evidence is terrible, but the loss of a desire for scientific progress period by the public is worse. The undermining of science and trust in the scientific method makes the future a bleak one.
Yet another extremely ignorant statement. Look up Dover and what happened to the parents that stood up.
If that doesn't stir you, see what Judge Jones has had to go through.
Posted by: @Atheist_ | July 30, 2009 8:17 AM
Wow! Other than the fact that this facility was even built blows my mind, but my brain truly has difficulty believing this is not fantasy!
"t-shirts with naked lesbians masturbating with bibles" hahahahaha ahem... where can I get one of these? lol
Posted by: Calilasseia | July 30, 2009 9:29 AM
Here's a simple solution.
Everyone turn up in lab coats. Then, when someone asks "Are you scientists?", you can answer "Yes, and none of us regards anything in this building as being other than the product of a fantasy".
Posted by: Amanda | July 30, 2009 10:22 AM
Could an xkcd t-shirt that says "Stand Back! I'm going to try Science!" be construed as threatening? Now I'm paranoid about the extent of their paranoia.
Posted by: a_ray_in_dilbert_space
|
July 30, 2009 10:59 AM
ex-anonymous says "Why are you spending your time attacking a museum that will have no real impact on science, when there are so many more real threats to our work ?"
Uh, more folks believe in frigging angels in this country than believe in evolution--and these bastards breed and vote. Just try to get a grant in this country to research anything that touches on homosexuality, family-values issues or--'til recently--stem cells. These folks impact research on issues from evolution to climate change to astronomy. They are a threat to anyone who values rationality and freedom of thought.
Posted by: Corey Furman | July 30, 2009 11:56 AM
PZ: I applaud your insistence on civility. Though it may be a facade, it shows a willingness to try to be reasonable.
To all those reading here, it seems that you view creationists as paranoid. In fact, this is not entirely unjustified. Regardless of what you believe, please bear in mind that we feel somewhat persecuted and threatened.
You also loudly and obviously think creationists are so steeped in dogma that we are unable to perceive truth. I respectfully submit that that is certainly true in some cases, just as there are people who believe in evolution wholly without a shred of understanding why. This is unfortunately the case in many areas - business, religion, finances, politics. I urge you to overlook that fact for a moment and ponder this: there are creationists who do have a deeper understanding of the foundational issues of both sides of the argument. Consider this: creationists genuinely feel that evolution is very similar to religion, with its dogma, converts, laypeople, and a belief in something impossible to prove or test. It's fair to say that in our eyes, evolutionists believe what they believe in spite of what is factual.
In any case, PZ: I encourage you to engage Ken in discussion. I've met him, and he's quite approachable. If you truly want to have open, honest discussion perhaps even debate - I suspect you would find a willing partner.
Posted by: Calilasseia | July 30, 2009 12:14 PM
@#483:
"You also loudly and obviously think creationists are so steeped in dogma that we are unable to perceive truth."
This might have something to do with the fact that creationists routinely provide evidence to this effect. I've been dealing with them for two and a half years, and I can recite the canards they erect in my sleep.
@#483:
"I respectfully submit that that is certainly true in some cases, just as there are people who believe in evolution wholly without a shred of understanding why."
Please, spare us the blatant projection. I accept the validity of evolution because I got off my arse and spent time studying the actual scientific literature on the subject, instead of paying attention to the blatant misrepresentations of science creationists routinely peddle. I spent time applying the good quality science education I received as a child to the matter of evaluating the evidence. Evolution is an observed fact, documented as such in the scientific literature, and the hypotheses erected to explain the real world observations have been subject to direct experimental test and verification. Creationist fantasies arising from mythology have NO such evidential support. Which means that evolution isn't something one "believes" in, it's a theory that one accepts the validity of because it has been demonstrated time and again to be in accord with observational reality, unlike mythology.
@483:
"This is unfortunately the case in many areas - business, religion, finances, politics. I urge you to overlook that fact for a moment and ponder this: there are creationists who do have a deeper understanding of the foundational issues of both sides of the argument."
Where? Point me, or PZ, for that matter, to ONE instance thereof. Only I've dealt with AiG's canards and deliberate lies about valid science in the past, and I know that they're lies, because I've busted them, courtesy of performing the relevant diligent research. It won't take me long to point you to where I did this recently.
@#483:
"Consider this: creationists genuinely feel that evolution is very similar to religion, with its dogma, converts, laypeople, and a belief in something impossible to prove or test."
Complete and utter poppycock.
What part of my above statements do you not understand? Namely that evolution has been observed taking place in real world living organisms, documented doing so in the peer reviewed scientific literature, and the hypotheses erected to explain this have been subject to direct experimental test and verification? There is NO "dogma" involved, NO "converts", and just because you and other creationists are too scientifically illiterate to understand reality doesn't mean for one moment that said reality has to pander to your mythology based fantasies. Once more, all you have erected here is blatant projection of the modus operandi of your own dogma and your own doctrine onto valid science, because like other adherents of doctrine centred world views, you are incapable of conceiving that a world view NOT based upon a doctrine can even exist.
@#483:
"It's fair to say that in our eyes, evolutionists"
Oh no, not this tiresome canard again. Allow me to provide you with the education you manifestly need.
There is no such thing as an "evolutionist". There are evolutionary biologists, namely the specialist scientific professionals who devote decades of their lives to studying and researching their particular field, and those outside that professional scientific remit that accept the evidence-based, reality-based case for evolutionary hypotheses. The word "evolutionist" is a discoursive elision erected by propagandists for mythology-based doctrines, with the deliberate intent of erecting the specious notion that there exists a "symmetry" between evidence-based science and assertion-laden doctrine. NO such "symmetry" exists. Evolution is an evidence based scientific theory that includes direct experimental test and validation of its postulates, whereas the doctrines erected by carping critics thereof are based upon unsupported blind assertions. Moreover, does my giving credence to the theory of gravity make me a "gravitationist"? Does my giving credence to electromagnetic theory make me an "electromagnetist"? Does my giving credence to the microbe theory of disease make me a "microbist"? The absurdity of this should be self-evident to anyone who bothered to pay attention in a real science class.
@#483:
"believe what they believe in spite of what is factual."
Blatant projection. Yawn.
Learn this lesson quickly. REALITY does NOT support creationism. REALITY pisses all over creationist blind assertion from a great height and laughs at it. Now go and learn some real science instead of wasting PZs and everyone else's time here erecting blatant canards that we've all seen a thousand times before, and destroyed a thousand times before. Take your doctrine-centred mindset over to Rapture Ready where it'll earn you a fan club.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 30, 2009 12:21 PM
This is patently false. Look at any of his "lectures" and you'll see he is not concerned with honest debate in any way whatsoever.
Posted by: jay | July 30, 2009 12:32 PM
t does happen, although on a much much MUCH smaller scale. My uncle (homophobic conservative pentecostal asshole) listens to Native American Christian Gospel music...
//www.amazon.com/Red-Earth-White-Lies-Scientific/dp/1555913881/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248971365&sr=8-1
Posted by: Ken Cope | July 30, 2009 12:41 PM
Creationists are wrong to do so.There are only so many explanations.
Stupidity explains nothing, as stupid people are capable of parroting any position.
They could be wrong out of ignorance, having been failed by poor educators, or by church leaders who have manipulated the ignorant in such a way that even the best educator could not reach them, rendering them ineducable.
They could be wrong out of deceit, either lying to preserve the falsehood that there is reasonable justification for their position, or lying for fear of the consequences for the "social order" if people abandon their religion.
They could be wrong out of delusion, but the possibilities I've listed are included under the category of delusion.
So, Corey @483, unless I left out another possibility you can add to the list, which explanation covers you?
Posted by: jay | July 30, 2009 12:48 PM
Actually the Flintstones thing is a good idea. Everyone wear a Flintstones T-shirt. Not offensive but accomplishes both identification and a subtle point.
Posted by: calladus | July 30, 2009 12:50 PM
You say that as an insult, as if you are insulting the scientific community for being "religious".
I find it amusing when religious people think that labeling someone else as religious is a good insult. Didn't think that all the way through, did you?
Posted by: Holbach
|
July 30, 2009 1:29 PM
Corey Furman @ 483
How about an inversion to portray reality:
Rationalists genuninely feel that religion is very similiar to insanity. Succinct, and to the point, don't you think?
Posted by: ex-anonymous | July 30, 2009 5:15 PM
ex-anonymous says "Why are you spending your time attacking a museum that will have no real impact on science, when there are so many more real threats to our work ?"
a_ray_in_dilbert_space replies "Uh, more folks believe in frigging angels in this country than believe in evolution--and these bastards breed and vote. Just try to get a grant in this country to research anything that touches on homosexuality, family-values issues or--'til recently--stem cells. These folks impact research on issues from evolution to climate change to astronomy. They are a threat to anyone who values rationality and freedom of thought."
It may be true that more people believe in angels than evolution, but hasn't this always been the case ? These people tend to hold right wing opinions on homosexuality and climate change but academia is generally pretty left wing, has this ever affected research budgets ?
Science has enemies on both the left and the right, we should try to check our political opinions at the door when we enter the lab. If we don't do this we end up ignoring threats to science (such as the native american reburial movement) that come from people with our own political opinions.
Posted by: TheBlackCat | July 30, 2009 6:09 PM
I guess you weren't paying attention to all the science funding issues during the last administration.Posted by: The Chimp's Raging Id | July 30, 2009 7:04 PM
PZ's points on behaviour during the trip are well taken, althought there's a part of me that thought after reading...
...that the place was crying out for great big gay kiss-in separate from and after the SSA trip.
(Apologies to anyone above who may have already suggested this above - I haven't read most of the comments.)
Posted by: ex-anonymous | July 30, 2009 7:18 PM
Actually, I just talked to the american who has the desk next to me in the lab. He says that when he went to school they actually taught him that there are references in Job about Leviathan that proves that man and dinosaurs lived at the same time.
I am no longer in favour of tolerance for creationists just because of the importance of open mindedness and democratic discourse. I am in also favour of tolerance for creationists because it allows me to make cheap jokes about american stupidity.
Posted by: E.V. | July 30, 2009 10:25 PM
"Bye-bye Boys (and girls)! Have fun storming the castle!"
Posted by: Justin | July 31, 2009 1:30 AM
I just think its funny people go to this extent. I am in no way a "creationist" or supporter thereof, but really, how sad is it that these people would make a trip just to mock someone else's beliefs, however far-fetched. Why does the SSA care? Does it make you feel better to cut those people down? I just don't understand the appeal of going and doing this. It seems so bitter. It is sad to me, yes, that the creationist movement has reached influential mass in some areas, but in the great tradition of America, majority rules. If enough people want this crap taught in their state, so be it. Welcome to democracy. I, like the vast, vast majority of the world's population, do believe that there is some sort of a God out there, but I do not believe in any of the creationist doctrine. But what good are those people doing, going to a museum to mock and laugh, whether it be at other "museum" goers, or to each other, afterwards? If they want to make a difference, they should move to Kansas and breed like mad, so that one day the kids they have raised with their beliefs will be a substantial-enough portion of the population to shift the board of education into the direction they prefer.
And @ "exAnonymous" (2 comments above): If you're foolish enough to believe that mainstream public education in America, as many flaws as it may have, teaches that man and dinosaurs shared the earth, proven by way of a bible passage, then please tell me YOUR country of origin so I can start cracking jokes about what a clearly insufficient job is being done THERE.
Posted by: Rick R | July 31, 2009 3:36 AM
Justin, I was going to pull some quotes out of your post and respond individually, but upon rereading what you wrote....fuck dude...... EVERYTHING FAIL.
Especially American civics.
Posted by: Helene | July 31, 2009 8:36 AM
Sounds to me like a the folks at the creation museum are getting nervous. (If they are so certain that their museum is the "truth" should they be?)
Great advise PZ and good luck to all. I really wish I could be there. Good luck and best wishes to all attending.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 31, 2009 8:44 AM
You needed that for cheap jokes?
Where are you from ex-anonymous? I didn't realize you weren't from the US. That would explain a lot about not understanding the influence that creationists have here in many parts of the States.
Posted by: Justin | July 31, 2009 9:06 AM
@ Rick R:
Whatever you say, chief.
Posted by: gingivitis | July 31, 2009 12:04 PM
One thought for Justin:
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."--Voltaire.
This is one of the 6000 reasons why creationism is a threat to democracy.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 31, 2009 12:20 PM
Justin, thank you for display your utter ignorance and misunderstanding of the issue.
Posted by: ex-anonymous | July 31, 2009 12:41 PM
Hi Justin,
-I am Canadian, please feel free to make cheap jokes about my country. We are used to it.
-I am an atheist, apart from that agree with you about the creationist museum (see my earlier posts)
-I got bored with trying to have a reasonable discussion on this thread (see replies to your comment as an example of why).
-I thought that it would be more challenging to develop a viewpoint that offended both creationists and new atheists.
-the only person whose chain I appear to have offended is someone who agrees with me (you).
-The lord works in mysterious ways.
Posted by: Cambridge | July 31, 2009 1:01 PM
So I guess I'm not allowed to wear my Bad Religion shirt with the Crossbuster logo :/
Posted by: Jim | July 31, 2009 4:53 PM
I'm sorry, PZ. If these comments reflect the nature or your group, you've lost. I read about 1/3 of these comments and gave up. Granted there is a fair bit of trolling by fundies, but the responses are almost as bad in many cases. I sincerely hope the group you get to go through the so called "creationist museum" is better behaved than the bulk of this crowd.
Best of luck to you all.
Posted by: TheBlackCat | July 31, 2009 5:02 PM
This isn't just to mock their beliefs, it is also to learn exactly what is being said so that their position can be better understood. You mean besides the fact that the goal of the people behind the museum is the destruction of science education in this country, and are doing a good job at it in far too many places? Isn't that reason enough?We do not live in a democracy, we live in a constitutional republic. Democracy is mob rule. In a constitutional republic, rules are set out, rules that not even the majority is allowed to break. The purpose of these rules is to prevent majority groups from using their numbers to make the government abuse and discriminate against by the majority. In the U.S. one of those rules is that the majority cannot use the government to force their religious beliefs on others (this is considered the establishment of a religion).
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 31, 2009 5:06 PM
When you're done patting yourself on the back for whatever reason perhaps you could actually address the points brought up to you in the spirit of reasonable discussion.
Posted by: JDP | July 31, 2009 6:31 PM
This whole thing seems entirely counterproductive at this point. If you can't walk into the museum wearing provocative clothing, then you're not protesting. You're not putting the docents at the Creationist "museum" in the same position that docents at natural history museums are placed in, where they are targeted for extensive verbal abuse by Christian groups. Either the point is to be intimidating to the Creationist "museum" in a show of parity, or you're rolling over and stating that you're their tame little monkeys who will do whatever they tell you to do and will pay them decent money ($2000 and counting!) for the privilege.
Drive to the Carnegie Museum of Natural History or the Cleveland Museum of Natural History instead. Both institutions have great exhibits and could use the patronage. Or better yet, go on a trip to Caesar Creek State Park outside of Cinncinnati, which preserves an amazing set of fossils from an Ordivician reef. $2000 could go a long way towards maintaining the park, especially during an economic downturn where park funding has been systematically cut off in favor of industry bailouts.
You'd all be idiots to give your money and patronage to the Creationism Propaganda "Museum."
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 31, 2009 6:35 PM
Oh, I'm sorry was that the purpose of this event? An exercise to avenge the real museums?
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
July 31, 2009 6:42 PM
If you mean an imaginary deity, he/she/it doesn't exist. To quote the Mythies, "There's your problem."Posted by: Ichthyic | July 31, 2009 7:03 PM
but in the great tradition of America, majority rules. If enough people want this crap taught in their state, so be it. Welcome to democracy.
spoken like someone who not only doesn't understand what democracy means, but someone who hasn't a clue how his own country operates.
congratulations on being a great example of how education has eroded so badly in the US.
for a start, you might try reading this:
http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/jsmill.htm
or, if you're simply too lazy (likely), here's the key part:
J.S. Mill
unlike yourself, the people who wrote the US constitution were well aware of these ideas (long before Mill wrote his essay, of course, but Mill expressed the ideas so clearly), and as a result the US formed what amounts to a representative republic, not a democracy.
George Washington wrote that without an educated population a democracy couldn't work because you need people to understand the issues, discuss them, and be able to read about them.
Guess what happens if a majority in each state gets to decide what is and isn't science? What is and isn't history?
You really haven't thought this through much, have you.
I also would suggest you try reading Orwell's 1984 sometime, though I would caution you in particular against thinking it an instruction manual instead of a warning.
Posted by: Ichthyic | July 31, 2009 7:05 PM
-The lord works in mysterious ways.
spoken like a true atheist...
O.o
Posted by: JDP | July 31, 2009 8:49 PM
RE: Rev BigDumbChimp
Is this protest and an attempt to establish parity of access to museum space, or is this simply a plan to go drop a lot of money into the pockets of a political activist organization that seeks to enforce a theocratic doctrine on the rest of us?
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
July 31, 2009 8:53 PM
You forget, that to effectively counter your enemy, you must know your enemy. So by going into their den, the group will have a very good idea of their methods, and their weaknesses. The same as recon by the military.Posted by: Rick | July 31, 2009 9:06 PM
I wonder if they'll unfairly apply their policies in a way to harass you and your group, while strictly adhering to the letter of their stated policy. I wouldn't be surprised. Good luck!
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 31, 2009 9:08 PM
Neither, as far as I know it's a group of people going to the "museum" to see exactly how bad it is and to then inform the rest of us with first hand accounts while having a bunch of laughs at the ridiculousness of the whole thing. The bonus is exposing the Creation Museum on some point by point refutation of their idiocy complete with photos and video (hopefully).
Where the hell did you get the idea this was a protest over equal access to museum space? If I'm missing something somewhere that states that as the goal please enlighten me.
The ssa has this quote about the trip.
That quote is from PZ here.
which includes this
And I'm sure the huge amount of money they will be spending there will turn the tide and our children will all be learning about Jesus and his pet dinosaur in their biology class.
SSA suggests making an equal $10.00 donation to them to balance. That or you could donate to any free thought or rational group.
I'm sure you're all very upset about the trip but I don't think you're even upset at the correct reason.
Posted by: E.V. | July 31, 2009 9:19 PM
Eugenie Scott and other Scientists have already made the pilgrimage to Ken's House of Wack. It's amazing and infuriating when that kind of looney can get funding to promote ideological fantasy over scientific realities. The Creation Museum is a testament to man's ability and right to be self- deluded.
Posted by: cicely | August 1, 2009 12:27 AM
JDP,
The problem is, it isn't practical to try to give the Creation Museum employees/management the same treatment that the employees and management of real museums have to put up with, because of the crucial difference that real museums are generally public property, and the Creation Museum is private property. Whole different set of rules.
____
I notice that TypeKey/Pad has gone right back to not letting me sign in, at least in Firefox. And here I thought that things were improving.....
Posted by: ex-anonymous | August 1, 2009 12:08 PM
I don't know guys, this doesn't look like it will turn out well. If we go to the museum we will be financially supporting these ignorant heretical creationists and any attempt to propagate our message can be spun by them as an intolerant attempt to shut them down. On the other hand if we bail out now they will announce this as a victory for their narrow minded, twisted version of the universe.
The conclusion is clear. Only divine intervention can save this attempt to refute creationism. Obviously we must avoid helping the churches that support the answers in genesis museum as my understanding is that their knowledge of the gospels is gleaned mainly from chick comics and Dan Brown novels. Instead I am taking the money that I would spend to travel to Florida and passing it on to a well educated Catholic priest who will conduct a mass in our name to the correct saints for a reasonable sum. I may slip some cash to the local Satanists as well just to hedge our bets.
Posted by: Greg du Pille | August 1, 2009 5:43 PM
I dont think togging everyone out in black suits is a very good idea. Destiny Church here in NZ themselves tried that a few years ago and the result was to make their members look creepy and threatening. I don't think that is at all the look our side should be trying for, if this thing makes it onto TV.
Posted by: Sean Coyne | August 1, 2009 10:19 PM
"I will be very pissed off at you."
Meh, I'm the one who is pissed off. Living in Oz means I can't go. :-(
Good luck with the visit. I hope all goes well and you don't have any trouble. Just try not to have a fit laughing your asses off. :-)
Posted by: ermine | August 1, 2009 10:23 PM
#515, ex-anonymous:
Your concern is noted.
Posted by: cd | August 2, 2009 6:37 AM
Checking in late on my weekend blog roundup...
200+ people x 10.00 is not going to make a massive difference in their income. When I went to the museum a year or two back, we went on a weekday--Monday or Tuesday--and the parking lot was PACKED with church buses who had made pilgrimages from halfway across the country. We had to walk through a line for essentially the entire thing. Plenty of people are paying their $24 or whatever it is to get in. Just think that you'll be making more people wait in the line, yeah?
(And if you have a chance while you're in the area, DO check out the REAL Cincinnati Natural History Museum--it's quite good, and holy crap, a current exhibit on what?)
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | August 2, 2009 9:01 AM
ex-anonymous,
You really don't have a clue do you.
Posted by: Carlie | August 2, 2009 9:57 AM
If these comments reflect the nature or your group, you've lost. I read about 1/3 of these comments and gave up. Granted there is a fair bit of trolling by fundies, but the responses are almost as bad in many cases.
You seem not to realize that people are capable of acting differently in different settings.
Posted by: Justin | August 3, 2009 1:50 AM
Man, I just can't help myself.
@ TheBlackCat, Ichthyic, and whoever else is doling out condescending poli-sci lessons and pasting passages-
Yes, I understand that the technical definition of our model of government is not a puristic democracy. I didn't think I needed to lay out an exacting, detailed knowledge of the basics of middle-school civics to have my point be taken seriously. What was implied by "welcome to democracy" was that representative law-makers are ELECTED to OFFICE by THE PEOPLE who VOTE in ELECTIONS to INFLUENCE the LAW-MAKING PROCESS IN WHATEVER DIRECTIONS in WHICHEVER GIVEN AREAS that THEIR CONSTITUENTS FAVOR. I mean FFS gimme a break.
And look, THEBLACKCAT, you seem quite upset by my not falling in line with the prevailing sentiment here. As I did before, I shall continue to, view this entirely objectively. "You mean besides the fact that the goal of the people behind the museum is the destruction of science education in this country, and are doing a good job at it in far too many places? Isn't that reason enough?" I'm going to side-step your conclusions about the motivation of these people. Lets remove ourselves completely from our emotions and personal opinions here, and call a spade a spade: this is about one group finding influence on certain minds, and another group fighting to influence those said minds with their alternative set of values. This is a fight over beliefs. I'd be the first to agree that there is no reasonable logic, or any known data, to support any creationist beliefs. Tough shit. People can believe what they want. And you want to visit tyranny? How about attempting to dismantle some other collective group's belief system? They're protected, and allowed to speak publicly, gather, and share their ideas, just the same way as Baptists, Nazis, Scientologists, and whoever else you'd care to mention. You just have to have faith that logic will prevail.
So, living in a representative republic, our forefathers built in this fail-safe against such scenarios as (this Creationist influence reaching any significant mass in government). Then whats all the hub-bub about?
Atheism is a belief, just like Creationism, Sikhism, Reformed Judaism, Jainism, Rosicrucianism, Catholicism, and on, and on. Just because the atheist value-set is devoid of an omnipotent or omniscient or omnipresent being, does not relieve it.
Policy trickles up from the bottom, not the other way around, despite short-term appearances.
People are free to believe whatever they want, regardless of what anyone else thinks about it. If 48 people out of 50 believe that God made Adam in a Sony microwave out of dinosaur skin and pixie dust in 1843, and 2 believe that man evolved from primates which evolved from fish that evolved from single-celled amoebas, well, guess which 2 out of the 50 are S.O.L.? I'm sure it is frustrating to be in the vast, vast minority, whether it be an Atheist or a Creationist. Paradigms are a bitch. Hard to get a foothold in the first place...harder still, with all this competition. I wonder if the real origin of the snarky animosity here is an underlying feeling of helplessness as one such minority sees another snatching up all the squishy, ripe-for-programming, minds.
Everyone's just fighting to have their ideas on top. Logic doesn't make one belief more valid than another. Its a bitter pill to swallow.
We're all free to believe whatever we want. That's the nature of humanity- learn to deal with it.
@ ExAnonymous- Good times.
Anyway, I didn't realize I even still had this tab open- I left the computer on standby while I was out of town this weekend. I hope that fact hasn't offended anyone any further than I already have.
Yes, I believe in God, yes, I believe we evolved from single cells, no, I do not believe that these two ideas have to contradict one another, but ultimately, all any of us can do is vote as closely as we can to what our core values are. People gravitate to what makes sense to them. I'd be willing to bet a significant chunk of the atheists writing here, were born to parents who believe in a god, or gods. The same holds true for those who are connecting with creationism or atheism or anything in between, and the same will hold true for their children. All this bickering, and the passive-aggressive trip-into-the-enemies-faux-museum, and copying and pasting of essays on political ideology, accomplishes absolutely zero.
Thanks for listening to my stream-of-consciousness that I just spewed all over your lovely blog. Please feel free to respond, lambaste, stab me with knives or sarcasm, shoot me with the bullets of your impeccably self-aggrandizing minds, detonate me with the grenades of your towering intellect. I may or may not be back to check on responses, but really, it doesn't matter, because just like everything I've just written, all comments before and after mine, this is all so unfathomably insignificant to the cosmos. Worthless thoughts from the frail, diminutive minds of pitiful, lowly and ultimately inconsequential organisms.
If the museum has tee shirts like the pope-mobile ones, that say "Our Creationist museum is real. Your Atheist unprovable negative is not.", can someone get me one please?
Have a burgeriffic night folks.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | August 3, 2009 8:03 AM
Difference is, we have the evidence on our side. If you can show me your magic Sony microwave and your pixie dust, then please pony up.
To some extent you've nailed it but still accomplished missing the big picture. We have mountains of evidence to support evolution the creationists have nothing to support their nonsense. What makes us angry is seeing the creationism pushed as some competing theory to evolution when it isn't. In any way. It's myths and lies and distortions built upon people's faith. It exists despite all the evidence against it.
But evidence does and there isn't even a close competitor to evolution when it comes to explaining the bio-diversity on earth. Not even on the same playing field.
Science isn't a democracy. Evolution and science aren't a "value" vote. Do you propose we vote on germ theory? Gravity?
oh yawn. Get over yourself.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
August 3, 2009 8:22 AM
What a shithead. Atheism is not a belief. It is the absence of belief in your imaginary deity. Period, end of story. Nothing more.Right, but if they are smart, they keep their more delusional beliefs, like in god, to themselves. But then, idiots like you can't do that.Yes, then we read the babble, saw what a thug Yahweh is, and decided we didn't want to worship such an immoral creature. We learned and progressed, which is more than you can do.Yes, that sounds like your posts alright. Whereas ours are cogent and reasoned. What an idiot.Posted by: John Morales | August 3, 2009 8:45 AM
Justin:
Sigh.
Posted by: aratina cage
|
August 3, 2009 9:04 AM
So, is God a biological entity, and if so what did God evolve from? If God is not a biological entity, then how does it think (where is its brain)? Surely there is some structure to this thing you call God. What is it?As distinguished from your comments that are indubitably important and high-minded! Clearly you have a golden ticket to the heavens in your hand.
Posted by: ex-anonymous | August 3, 2009 12:37 PM
Hey guys,
check this out,
http://blaghag.blogspot.com/2009/07/what-atheists-wish-would-happen-at.html
and keep praying of course.
Posted by: TheBlackCat | August 3, 2009 1:46 PM
Yes, that is why we have courts to prevent representative lawmakers from passing laws that discriminate against minorities. You said, "If enough people want this crap taught in their state, so be it. Welcome to democracy." That is not how this country works. If enough people want it taught, it still isn't can't be taught because doing so is a violation of the U.S. constitution.
I may seem that way to you, but I'm not. I am just pointing out the flaws in your argument.
The problem with this approach that their motivation is exactly what we are opposed to. By ignoring the motivation you ignore the entire source of the conflict. Which then leads you to propose an imaginary view of the conflict that does not at all match with what is really happening:
I have never heard anyone say that we should outlaw creationism, or that people cannot believe what they want. The whole problem is that these people are trying to get their beliefs taught as science in science classrooms, and they want to prevent real science from being taught in science classrooms. And they are succeeding in many places. Their beliefs are not the problem, their goal of forcing those beliefs on others is the problem.
First, the "fail-safe" is not automatic, we have to be vigilant. Second, yes, they are free to have their beliefs, and discuss them publicly. We, however, are free to publicly discuss why those beliefs are wrong. Freedom of speech goes both way. Freedom of religion goes both ways. They are allowed to speak, but so are we.
No, atheism is the absence of a belief. And there is no such thing as an "atheist value-set". Atheists have nothing in common besides the lack of a certain belief.
Of course it does. A belief that is self-contradictory and goes against all evidence is inherently inferior to one that is self-consistent and matches all evidence.
And we are also free to criticize beliefs. Learn to deal with it.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | August 3, 2009 1:57 PM
ex-anon
Posted by: Martha | August 3, 2009 4:44 PM
Even pro-science t-shirts are going to get you thrown out, I'd bet. Wear a plain t-shirt, or even better, wear business casual (polo shirt or nicer.) Adhere to even the spirit of their law, and you improve your case.
Posted by: Archer | August 4, 2009 9:58 AM
Not sure if this has already been brought up or not, as it's a lot of comments to go through, but here's a good way to make sure it's NONE of your group that acts up. It's a two step thing:
Step 1: When you hand a person their ticket, have someone with a digital camera snap a picture of them with their license and ticket visible. This way, no one that is NOT on your camera can claim to be part of your group.
Step 2: Make it obvious who IS part of your group by getting stickers or cheap pins that cannot be replicated easily ahead of time, or gotten quickly after the fact. (In other words, don't do the obvious by using "A" or a darwin fish, as that would be expected.) This will remind your group that they ARE easily identified, and should help keep them on their best behavior, while preventing other people from being able to claim they're part of your group. "Oh you are? Where's your sticker/pin?"
It won't solve the problem, but it's a relatively inexpensive step toward helping keep things civil.
Posted by: rooter | August 4, 2009 1:02 PM
As ermine at #472 correctly points out it is virtually impossible to avoid possible agent provocateurs as the enrolment for the trip (as I understand) is open to anyone.
The camera and license-idea is ok, as it can help identify the potensial troublemakers later on, but may be too intrusive.
Anyway, if something should go awry this friday, someone should get as much as possible on tape for identification later.
(by the way, OMG the faux "atheist"-posts! It's subhuman.)
Posted by: jsg | August 5, 2009 11:05 AM
I'm no Lawyer, by any means but recalling the Civil Rights movement of the 60's, - the " sit ins" particularly when 'private coffee shops refused to serve negros' I quote from their letter:
"The Creation Museum is private property, ... Guests at the museum are expected to conduct themselves in a polite, respectful manner at all times. ... We note, ... you urge the group to wear 'godless clothing.' "
Too not make trouble, I would encourage you all more to wear the 'Pro-Science' T-Shirt, a pro-darwin shirt, rather than specifically a Scarlet 'A' or 'Friendly Neighborhood Atheist' shirt. But can they legally refuse admittance to someone merely for identifying him or herself as an atheist perhaps by such a friendly shire 'Friendly Neighborhood Atheist.' Particularly if one is not making an active statement, only wearing that shirt.
Posted by: Becky | August 5, 2009 4:08 PM
I think you should disguise yourselves by wearing a shirt with a cross of some sort, blend in, so the fuzz doesn't follow you around.
Posted by: Ichthyic | August 5, 2009 4:11 PM
Make it obvious who IS part of your group by getting stickers or cheap pins that cannot be replicated easily ahead of time
that's actually a damn good idea.
Posted by: E.V. | August 5, 2009 4:17 PM
That reminds me of that hoary joke about two street walkers. Oh, you know... where one asks the other,"Have you ever been picked up by the fuzz?" And the second one replies, "No, but I've been...Posted by: Tommy J. | August 5, 2009 8:20 PM
Someone please wear this: http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/unisex/sciencemath/9899/ :D
Posted by: Adam P | August 5, 2009 11:36 PM
...well of course no sense in commmenting when you're #542 ! but what the hell:
I specifically became an atheist for the maturbating lesbians using archaic religious texts as stimulatory devices. ...the vivid imagery. WOW ! I Love it !
Posted by: Brook | August 7, 2009 1:41 AM
Have fun tomorrow! -- Should be a riot.
Posted by: Zion's Warrior | August 7, 2009 7:39 PM
And don't forget, "the truth is out there".
Genesis 1 (New International Version)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.
3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Posted by: Stewart Cowan | August 7, 2009 9:39 PM
What a terrible indictment! Atheists treated like disruptive schoolchildren by Headmaster P.Z. because they don't know how to behave themselves like civilised human beings.
The sad thing is that he is right.
Posted by: Don Bowers | August 16, 2009 9:36 PM
Well, you all are certainly cleaver and witty. I admire that. However, at the end of our lives, if you're right then we have absolutely nothing to lose. But if I'm right you have everything to lose. So, have fun!
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
August 16, 2009 9:43 PM
Don't be suprised if you don't see your imaginary deity after you are dead. The soul is another figment of your imagination.Posted by: Ichthyic | August 16, 2009 9:50 PM
However, at the end of our lives, if you're right then we have absolutely nothing to lose. But if I'm right you have everything to lose.
Holy Crap:
the very definition of Pascal's Wager.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9WRG4e6m2s
"...assumes that believing costs you nothing. "
Posted by: Ichthyic | August 16, 2009 9:52 PM
And don't forget, "the truth is out there".
don't forget:
The X-Files was fiction, too.
Posted by: Ben in Texas | August 16, 2009 9:53 PM
Hey Don, you'd better believe in Zeus, then, because what if you're wrong?
Posted by: Bobber | August 16, 2009 9:55 PM
See, turn your back for a minute, and the Believers start swarming in. Get out the big sticks.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
|
August 16, 2009 9:59 PM
Another goddist who thinks we've never been exposed to Pascal's Wager.
Posted by: Wowbagger, OM | August 16, 2009 10:03 PM
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 30, 2009 9:23 AM
Wow. I didn't know that my former haunt, Jackson Hole, had become a hub for porn.
exciting.
Posted by: Ethersfes | November 12, 2009 5:00 PM
http://community.tottenhamhotspursforum.co.uk/service/displayKickPlace.kickAction?u=15866390&as=63902 redtube, ydkklf,