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« Friday Cephalopod: The Great and Serene Floating Brain | Main | A tale from the trenches of science journalism »

This is not a dilemma for the church

Category: ReligionReproduction
Posted on: July 10, 2009 9:55 AM, by PZ Myers

William Saletan highlights an interesting study in reproductive biology.

In a paper presented to the European Society of Human Reproduction and Embryology, Dr. David Greening, an Australian infertility expert, reports that 81 percent of the men in his study significantly improved their sperm quality, as measured by DNA fragmentation, through a simple one-week program.

The program was so easy that even the average guy could follow it. According to a summary of the study, "The men were instructed to ejaculate daily."

He presents it as a conflict for religious organizations like the Catholic church, which frown on masturbation. Unfortunately, Saletan gets it wrong. The Catholic Church can still condemn masturbation as sinful and urge their followers to procreate madly because there's nothing in their doctrine to favor quality reproduction. To the simple-minded, human beings are all r-selected. Pop 'em out and let God sort 'em out should be their motto.

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#1

Posted by: Lynna | July 10, 2009 10:08 AM

The Mormons do more than say masturbation is a sin. Some of their Bishops regularly inquire about abusing one's body in temple worthiness interviews.

Missionaries are monitored for masturbation.

Does seem unhealthy on more than a "spiritual" level to focus on what is, after all, a private activity. (Nobody is watching but God.)

#2

Posted by: chris | July 10, 2009 10:09 AM

No conflict at all. Their priests have been following that prescription with altar boys for decades.

#3

Posted by: Peter Pohly | July 10, 2009 10:16 AM

How should I set up a URL to be able to post comments?

#4

Posted by: JefFlyingV | July 10, 2009 10:16 AM

It seemed short sighted of the Pope not to encourage population control in his latest pronouncement.

#5

Posted by: Chemgirl Author Profile Page | July 10, 2009 10:17 AM

Every sperm is saaaaaaacred...

What a silly, silly notion.

#6

Posted by: Objection! Author Profile Page | July 10, 2009 10:17 AM

In fairness, one could ejaculate daily without masturbation. In fact I imagine many a Catholic man will be quite happy to use this as leverage for a daily allotment of reproduction-centric sex.

#7

Posted by: Lynna | July 10, 2009 10:20 AM

History of sex in the LDS church, starting at about 1848 and going to the 1990s (so, not exactly current, but good for an overview of the history) is at:
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon036.htm

Excerpt:

4 Mar, 1983 - Salt Lake Tribune reports lawsuit filed in February against LDS church for $28 million. A father blames LDS bishop for contributing to his sixteen-year-old son's suicide for conseling his son "that masturbation is a terrible sin.. and being a normal adolescent in the puberty state, KIP ELIASON became increasingly less able to reconcile his sexual desires with the strict doctrines of the said LDS Church. He became filled with self-hate."

#8

Posted by: Jared | July 10, 2009 10:21 AM

I thought humans were K-selected, but I wasn't sure; your satire had me for a moment...

Anyway, I distinctly remember hearing about that somewhere else. I guess it's all about those potential babies, wouldn't want to have them spilling all over the place.

#9

Posted by: Mark | July 10, 2009 10:23 AM

The various churches can admonish men and women for masturbating all they want. But they pretend concern for show only. They have these tenets that they 'say' are 'true', but they don't actually follow them. It's all a show of force. I've known far too many priests that ejaculate daily inside or outside various people and objects. Far too many. As soon as a male is capable of ejaculating we do on a daily or semi-daily basis for the rest of our lives, edicts or not.

It's high time to acknowledge that men ejaculate with frequency whether there is religion involved in their lives or not. Men are incapable of sustaining a 'no ejaculation' policy because it is biologically impossible. That's like the church saying 'no one will breathe unless we say'. It's simply biologically impossible. We are designed to expel copious amounts of semen because it's being made on a continuous basis. Imagine not spitting, or sneezing, or losing eyelashes. We are biological creatures. There are inputs and there are outputs. There are certain processes that go on in our bodies whether we like it or not.

I laugh at the hubris of any religious voice telling people how and when they can reproduce, have sex, masturbate or have any sort of physical pleasure. It is a gigantic control mechanism. They know sexuality is a foundational experience for humans so they make rules against it. Just like they know people are born without any need for gods, so they make one (or several) up to control their minds.

I, for one, will continue to worship at the altar of the erect phallus until I'm on my deathbed.

#10

Posted by: Brock | July 10, 2009 10:34 AM

"To the simple-minded, human beings are all r-selected."

Eeeew. I'm not sure why, but I find that statement way more disgusting than any of the squid/slug/worm pics posted on Pharyngula.

#11

Posted by: Lynna | July 10, 2009 10:42 AM

Should noted in my comment #1 that "Nobody is watching but God" was meant as sarcasm. People who don't know me might get the wrong idea.

#12

Posted by: Abdul Alhazred Author Profile Page | July 10, 2009 11:16 AM

Although Abrahamic religions always viewed it as "unclean" (along with menstruation and various other curious taboos), the real insane hysteria about masturbation started in the 19th century.

All the literature about it being physically and mentally ruinous, or even a social problem, started from that time.

Graham crackers and Kellogg's corn flakes were invented "cures" for masturbation in that era.

Also Mormonism? :)

#13

Posted by: TheLoneIguana Author Profile Page | July 10, 2009 11:23 AM

I always figured such rules were made by the ones who weren't gettin' any. "If I'm not having any fun, I'm gonna ruin it for everyone else!"

#14

Posted by: another | July 10, 2009 11:32 AM

I, for one, will continue to worship at the altar of the erect phallus until I'm on my deathbed.

I will likely continue until I'm off my deathbed.

#15

Posted by: mb | July 10, 2009 11:39 AM

Lynna:

a question and a comment:

Do you know how they go about "monitoring" someone for masturbation? Jackometer? Whackometer? Regular checks for relaxed, not to mention happy, eppididimuses (eppididimi?)

My comment is that masturbation is not always completely private -- at least in my experience. Not that I'm doing it in the road (apologies to the Beatles,) but I have been known to do it with a small consenting audience. I'd even be willing to let god watch -- if he weren't so fucking judgmental.

A side note: When I was in graduate school, I attempted to be a sperm donor to bring in a little extra cash. Nothing like having work you can really enjoy and excel at. I was advised to avoid ejaculation for 3 days prior to donating -- a bar that was too high for me. Consequently none of my donations were accepted due to marginally low sperm count. It is interesting that perhaps though it reduced my count, my proclivities probably resulted in higher quality swimmers (if this study is to be believed.)

#16

Posted by: druidbros | July 10, 2009 11:55 AM

I just got through upon getting frowned.

#17

Posted by: a different phil | July 10, 2009 12:11 PM

By the logic of this process, I have *very* high quality sperm.

#18

Posted by: Dianne | July 10, 2009 12:11 PM

I was wondering the same thing myself. Is the Mormon underwear we keep hearing about bugged?

#19

Posted by: AwesomeRobot | July 10, 2009 12:19 PM

Daily? I don't think I could cut back that much!

rimshot-> http://www.instantrimshot.com/

#20

Posted by: Loki | July 10, 2009 12:22 PM

mb,

Having been raised in the Mormon church, and having served a mission, I can tell you that while they only question, they do it in such a way as to give you little room but feel like you have to confess or feel like they know you are lying. I mean, come on, what teenage boy truly has never masturbated or at least been aroused or had wet dreams? The questions start out asking innocently about arousal and then follow up getting more specific. You are taught that your leaders get inspiration from God about you so it puts you into a tough situation.

Of course, in the mission field all missionaries are taught it is their duty to inform their leaders if they are aware of any misconduct of the mission rules or church doctrine. That is why missionaries are taught to never be without their companion. You also get a very paranoid culture where obedience is mandatory and "sin" is quickly dealt with.

In the church, coming home from your misison in disgrace for some misdeed is a huge issue and the shame follows you. Not having served a full-time mission is not easily overcome as it would come up pretty regularly and possibly make it more difficult to find a good mormon spouse.

#21

Posted by: 'Tis Himself Author Profile Page | July 10, 2009 12:22 PM

Considering that Joseph Smith had 34 wives (11 of them married to other men when Joe decided he needed to get a new bed warmer) and Joe's buddy Brigham Young had 55 wives (he only supplanted six husbands) the Mormon Church should not be complaining about members' sex lives.

#22

Posted by: chris | July 10, 2009 1:00 PM

This reminds me of George Carlin's (RIP) take on the church, to paraphrase: While they were pushin' for pain, I was pullin' for pleasure.

#23

Posted by: Michael | July 10, 2009 1:22 PM

As a Catholic boy during puberty, I can say that when I spoke to three priests about it, I got three very different answers. One said it was a mortal sin to jerk it, the other said it was a normal part of growing up, but like anything else with the flesh to be taken in moderation, the other began inquiring about whether I knew about my parent's sex lives. The second one seemed to have it right, being an old Irish priest with a pleasant demeanor. The other two were A-1 nutbars, the last one of which left the priesthood a few years later to hook up with a lady parishoner.

I was rather fortunate that in my diocese, the ratio of priests having sexual relations with others balanced out to 50/50 men and women. We were apparently a well-known dumping ground for nearly-defrocked clergy members. As a very active altar boy, my response to people asking if I was ever propositioned was a rather wry statement that none of my priests appeared to be chubby chasers.

#24

Posted by: False Prophet Author Profile Page | July 10, 2009 1:28 PM

@12, Abdul Alhazred:

I believe the 19th century is also when circumcision for non-religious reasons became a trend, as it was believed to reduce masturbation.

Anyway, this study isn't telling me anything new. Dr. Ruth was saying this over a decade ago!

#25

Posted by: Brock | July 10, 2009 1:44 PM

Who wants to start a Super Sperm club? :D

Also: I want to put the sperm from two men into the same petri dish, equip them with microscopic viking helmets, and have them battle it out gladiator-style. But... is that totally bad-ass, or totally gay?

#26

Posted by: Eliza | July 10, 2009 1:47 PM

Lynna #7

That is absolutely tragic. Do you happen to know how the case turned out?

False Prophet #24

Yup, that's where the neonatal circumcisions came out of. *sarcastic whoop* Clitorectomy was practised for the same reason, though it's less commonly talked about (and was common, rather than routine - a treatment for hysteria or greensickness or one of the many things supposed to be wrong with women who had a sexuality).

#27

Posted by: Throwaway | July 10, 2009 2:04 PM

How did the study quantify "improved quality" sperm. Are they saying the sperm can swim better or that the genetic integrity is higher?

#28

Posted by: eumenidis | July 10, 2009 2:07 PM

"To the simple-minded, human beings are all r-selected. Pop 'em out and let God sort 'em out should be their motto."

Two things: 1. Don't know about the "simple-minded", but it's clear that there are some people, including some proudly atheistic scientific types, who really would like reality to conform to a simple mechanical model--which leads me to 2. I've encountered quite a few of the atheistic scientific types whose attitude toward human sexuality & reproduction is exactly "let God sort 'em out", though for "God" they typically substitute "evolution" or "eugenics". Just goes to demonstrate the eerie sameness of all authoritarian types.

#29

Posted by: PZ Myers Author Profile Page | July 10, 2009 2:14 PM

Oh, I've looked at sperm samples, and you'd be surprised at how much junk sperm comes out of your urethra: two-headed sperm, two-tailed sperm, sperm with kinked tails, sperm that twirl in circles, etc., etc., etc. This is a process where quantity is valued over quality, and sperm themselves are fragile little things that show definite signs of youth, aging, and senescence.

#30

Posted by: Sven DiMIlo | July 10, 2009 2:27 PM

How did the study quantify "improved quality" sperm. Are they saying the sperm can swim better or that the genetic integrity is higher?
Let's check the OP, shall we?
sperm quality, as measured by DNA fragmentation

Hey, there it is!

I want to put the sperm from two men into the same petri dish, equip them with microscopic viking helmets, and have them battle it out gladiator-style. But... is that totally bad-ass, or totally gay?
If you use a female genital tract instead of a Petri dish, you're studying the fascinating topic of sexual selection via sperm competition.
#31

Posted by: dogmeatIB | July 10, 2009 2:35 PM

I'll never understand the religious obsession with sperm and eggs, where they are life, and "sacred," but they don't seem to give a crap about frozen embryos in fertility clinics ...

If an abortion is murder, and an abortion clinic is a "house of murder," a fertility clinic would, logically, seem like Jeffry Dahmer's house.

#32

Posted by: Ed Darrell | July 10, 2009 2:44 PM

My Seventh-day Adventist uncle and aunt, who traveled a lot (he was a major poobah in the church at one point) developed low blood pressure. The experts at Loma Linda explained it was a simple treatment: A pill that cost about $1.00 a day each, or two cups of coffee a day (back when coffee usually went for $0.10/cup).

Though coffee drinking is generally frowned on by the SDA church, my penny-pinching uncle didn't hesitate to pick the coffee treatment.

So, have these churches seen the studies that frequent ejaculation prevents prostate cancer?

#33

Posted by: Anon. | July 10, 2009 3:59 PM

So here's a bunch of sperm high-tailing it down the urethra, the leader already round the corner and out of sight. Suddenly he re-appears, swimming in the opposite direction. As he passes the others he shouts. "Go back! Go back! It's a blow job"

#34

Posted by: JackC Author Profile Page | July 10, 2009 4:18 PM

... ejaculations from a godless liberal

Our host apparently does so - several times a day. I knew there was a reason I wanted to be like him.

JC

#35

Posted by: Tony P | July 10, 2009 4:19 PM

Hell yeah, they're right. Hell I can tell - if I haven't released it gets very gelatinous. But a daily workout keeps it nice and liquid.

#36

Posted by: mb | July 10, 2009 4:26 PM

Thanks for the info Lynna. I grew up in an Evangelical tradition and this very topic was the first chink in my holy armor. It was abstinence only prior to marriage -- no if's, and's or but's for me. Dear ol' dad assured me that masturbation was how I was to remain sane and abstinent -- and provided me with a eternal subscription to National Geographic. My problem was that Jesus said that if you lust in your heart or have impure thoughts you may as well have done the dirty deed itself. This left me with a huge guilt complex that I couldn't resolve. According to Jesus, I'd had illicit sex with most of the women in the third world by the time I was 16. In addition, if I hated I had murdered. I couldn't cope with the continual confession of sins that I knew I was going to do again -- perhaps even before sundown. If you ask me to do two contradictory things, I stop one -- and sure as hell wasn't going to be masturbation. I could not figure out how to do it without sinning. So I became an atheist.

#37

Posted by: Kobra | July 10, 2009 4:26 PM

Is semen flammable?

#38

Posted by: Orson Zedd Author Profile Page | July 10, 2009 5:03 PM

Shit, this means I'm going to have to start handshammying more than once a week, doesn't it?

#39

Posted by: Joe Author Profile Page | July 10, 2009 5:04 PM

@mb #36 - Same thing kind of happened to me. A bit more complicated, but in principle, the same. I was raised Roman Catholic, but not fundie at all, thankfully. That was, like you said, the first chink in my armor. Every time someone tried to explain why it was "wrong" I thought to myself "That's bullshit". And the whole argument that "Porn makes you see women as objects" pissed me off too. I felt my intelligence was being insulted - as if I couldn't tell the obvious fantasy from reality. That was when i began questioning dogma, and simply rejecting the bits I thought were stupid. No birth control? Fuck that. The last thing the world needs is huge fertility rates in third world countries and families that can't support children. And on it went, until I thought "why am i even calling myself a Catholic anymore?" And boom, out of whacking it, a new atheist was born.

#40

Posted by: botanyguy | July 10, 2009 5:05 PM

#37
Don't know if semen is flammable but spores of ground pine (running cedar) are extremely flammable. During the war (WWI?) condoms were packed in spore powder. Maybe that is one reason why German women are so damn hot. Ask PZ for an opinion; he may know more from scientific inquiry in the goodtime houses of Lindau.

#41

Posted by: Crudely Wrott | July 10, 2009 6:03 PM

Use it or lose it.

Practice makes perfect.

Isn't it a truism that the things you do on a regular basis are things that you can do well?

#42

Posted by: Randy | July 10, 2009 6:09 PM

Brock at #25. I think you scored a two-fer; it is both bad ass and gay. I think the viking bit was particularly entertaining and I am visualizing little red beards on the squiggly combatants. It would make a great game show.. I would watch for sure. I guess that makes me... well, since I know I am not bad ass... great, now I have to break the news to my wife.

#43

Posted by: Sauceress | July 10, 2009 6:11 PM

I'll never understand the religious obsession with sperm and eggs, where they are life, and "sacred,"

Yes, according to the cdesignproponentsists every spem is sacred, having been individualy and lovingly (or not... as in the case of those defective sperm carrying harmful genetic aberrations) handcrafted by da designer. The question I have for them, one which has been consistently ignored whenever I've presented it in the past, is "Could they at least attempt to explain, from the ID perspective, why their designer would create human ejaculate to contain an average of 180 million sperm.?"

I'm aware that creationists have difficulty comprehending large numbers over ~10,000 so, for them, 180 million is 180 followed by 6 zeros...180,000,000 sperm (average)....per ejaculate...or every time they do the "dirty deed". Even if indulging in sex only for intentions of procreation, are they not (if sucessful) still deliberately *killing* (pro-lifer logic) ~179,999,999* of those sperm?

#44

Posted by: Mick | July 10, 2009 6:48 PM

"The Catholic Church can still condemn masturbation as sinful and urge their followers to procreate madly..."

I got to thinking about falling attendences and how the RCs are no longer the dominant religion and there may be a paradigm shift on this issue in the next decade or so...

...and I saw the t-shirts proudly proclaiming "Wanking for Jesus".

#45

Posted by: Uncle Glenny Author Profile Page | July 10, 2009 6:56 PM

isn't it a truism that the things you do on a regular basis are things that you can do well?

Surely the 10,000 hour rule applies. Get to work!

#46

Posted by: Sauceress | July 10, 2009 7:08 PM

Oooops
Truncation of submitted postg due to author's error...#43 cont.

"~179,999,999* of those sperm?'

*maybe a couple less in the case of multiple fertilisations.

Now I'm thinking that each one of those *special* sperm designed to make it to fertilisation will be selectively endowed with some type of molecular marker, a designer signature in effect.

So there's a scientific research proposal for the IDists. Find the designers molecular marker designating which one sperm is designated/designed to successfully fertilise an egg.

IDists should then be able to predict the exact molecular characteristics (signature) of which unique sperm will be successful.

Shouldn't be too hard...right? I mean the designer only created one of those millions to actually create a new life didn't it?

#47

Posted by: Heraclides | July 10, 2009 7:18 PM

@1: Missionaries are monitored for masturbation. Eh???!

#48

Posted by: Krystalline Apostate | July 10, 2009 9:56 PM

In fact, I'd read a study some time ago that claimed that regular masturbation could help prevent prostate cancer.

#49

Posted by: Rorschach | July 10, 2009 10:15 PM

In fact, I'd read a study some time ago that claimed that regular masturbation could help prevent prostate cancer.

It has been shown to be dependent of frequency and age of the masturbator at the time of frequent masturbating.Apparently your risk increases again with very frequent masturbation,whatever that is defined as.
:-)

#50

Posted by: Amy | July 10, 2009 10:15 PM

That makes perfect sense as men renew their sperm everyday, of course it will be healthier if the older stuff isn't in the way.

#51

Posted by: Recovering Catholic | July 10, 2009 10:40 PM

SALETAN.

Remove the L and remove the E, you get SATAN.

Coincidence?

I think not!

#52

Posted by: Cowcakes | July 10, 2009 10:55 PM

Posted by: chris | July 10, 2009 10:09 AM #2
"No conflict at all. Their priests have been following that prescription with altar boys for decades."

Point well made. the Catholic church obviously requires that masturbation be only performed under the direct supervision and guidance of a priest.

#53

Posted by: Krystalline Apostate | July 10, 2009 11:51 PM

It has been shown to be dependent of frequency and age of the masturbator at the time of frequent masturbating.Apparently your risk increases again with very frequent masturbation,whatever that is defined as.
So us old wankers are just increasing the risk?
#54

Posted by: Potent | July 11, 2009 1:29 AM

I've been following that programme since I was 12. Yeah you didn't need to know that...

#55

Posted by: Inky | July 11, 2009 2:37 AM

PLEASE tell me that there is a female disorder that I can either prevent or treat with daily orgasms!! I would *love* a medical reason!

#56

Posted by: John Morales | July 11, 2009 2:41 AM

Inky, sure. Hysteria.

#57

Posted by: RC | July 11, 2009 7:06 AM

Inky @ 55

My partner passed me a *fake* CNN article that showed swallowing semen prevented breast cancer. So I guess something for everyone!

#58

Posted by: Craig | July 11, 2009 12:50 PM

@47 (Heraclitus): While monitored struck me as an odd choice of words at first, it does fit.

First, missionaries are interviewed with regard to their "worthiness". Among the questions they're asked is whether they keep the Law of Chastity, defined as not having sexual relations with anyone other than their spouse. As the young elders aren't married, that reduces to "no sex". Potential missionaries who admit to masturbation may be turned down for missionary service.

While they are serving, their mission president will interview them frequently to inquire whether they're living the church's standards. The missionary also has to write letters weekly to the mission president, in addition to mundane statistical reports. Missionaries being counseled for sins are expected to provide updates in their weekly letters.

Moreover, each missionary is assigned a companion to live and work with 24/7. The companion is expected to report any deviations in behavior up the chain to his missionary superiors as well as to the mission president. Considering that mission companions often share the same bedroom - though, by rules, not the same bed - the chances of being reported by a companion for shaking beds or long showers is pretty high.

#59

Posted by: Lynna | July 11, 2009 1:12 PM

mb @ 15 and Heraclides @47: Loki gave some evidence from personal experience @20. From what I hear from Mormon friends and ex-mormons, the bishops who do the temple-worthiness interviews are less likely to ask about intimate sexual details now than they did a few years ago. Depends on the bishop, some being more nosy than others.

From what I've been told, the male missionaries (and young guys preparing to become missionaries at the Missionary Training Center) are still closely monitored. A lot of the emotional difficulties arise (ahem) when guilt prompts guys to incriminate themselves.

Here are few quotes from Mormon missionaries (various sources, with one link given at the end of this post for the "mind control" quote):

The mission rules said we had to sleep in the same room. I guess to discourage masturbation or to know if your companion tried to slip out
I also had extremely painful prostate problems, due to the fact I did not relieve seminal pressures as a missionary. The price I paid was very painful and expensive .

The urologist told me I should masturbate, and masturbate regularly. It made me more depressed, and I talked to the psychologist about my dilemma. The psychologist, a BYU employee and church leader, demanded to know the name of the urologist who had given me the admonition (love that word) to relieve my seminal pressures. I would not tell him. He told me "We have ways of dealing with doctors like him."

What a world to come home to. Depression, prostate problems, and conflicting messages. The church demanded the prostate problems continue--and they demanded the name of the urologist who wanted to help me end the painful problem . What a system.
We would have mission conferences with Elders Groberg, Ayala,Mickelsen, etc. They all had one common theme....we were sinners and therefore not baptizing "God's elect". If only we would stop masturbating....then God would lead us to the chosen people who were being punished for our masturbation. How stupid!! ... So the major theme on a mission and always one of the first questions in every Mission President interview I had was, "do you masturbate Elder"? So naturally, every missionary was obsessed with this and then to have a Seventy say that "he knew" our light, well, needless to say, there were a lot of freaked out missionaries.

But that is the very mind control and scare tactics that they use on the missionaries. They operate in complete fear and that is what the Church wants and strives for. They want complete control over the bodies and minds of all members, especially the missionaries. Those who admit to their masturbation are blacklisted and never rise to leadership positions and that my friends is a fact.


http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agora/view.php?bn=exmobb_biography&key=1119999424&first=1123990160&last=1110953126
#60

Posted by: Lynna | July 11, 2009 2:29 PM

Eliza @26: I don't know the outcome of the court case, but here is a link to Kip Eliason story, written by a journalist, and containing a summary of Mormon sex education:
http://www.affirmation.org/suicide_info/sin_and_death_in_mormon_country.shtml

#61

Posted by: Eliza | July 12, 2009 9:19 AM

Thanks a lot Lynna (#60). Reading it now.

#62

Posted by: RadFemHedonist | November 14, 2009 6:12 AM

Inky: I have found masturbating to orgasm helps with period cramps, but really, who needs a reason beyond it's your body (and it feels so good). I reiterate that women are affected by such shaming and punitive measures as well, I went through a huge amount of guilt about my frequent masturbation as a teenager, and I wasn't even raised in a family that said that masturbation was wrong (though they did fail to discuss such things consistently and affirmingly so I picked up a lot of attitudes from other individuals), being a constantly aroused 13 year old isn't a gender specific thing. I'm just glad I'm an atheist (I spent a lot of time afraid I would go to hell when I was younger, maybe I still haven't shaken that off completely).

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