Pharyngula

Posted by: Uncephalized | July 12, 2009 4:43 PM

Clearly that easement needs a sign, posted at the public-Mormon boundary, with bold letters stating WARNING! ENTERING MORMON TERRITORY. HETERONORMATIVITY STRICTLY ENFORCED. VIOLATORS WILL BE PREACHED AT.

Posted by: Holbach | July 12, 2009 5:14 PM

Perhaps they can rename it Templeton Square and apply for a grant to keep it pure for the dictates of religion.

Posted by: PixelFish | July 12, 2009 5:18 PM

Well, I know for a fact that you can be hetero and suck face on church property, as my first boyfriend and I went into the basement of the Church History Museum (a block or so away) and made out during a film about the Nauvoo Temple burning. Nobody said anything. No security guards detained us. Nobody even asked about our membership. So I'm not so certain about the church making the claim that "every other couple" would have been treated the same way. And anyway, newly married couples and engaged couples taking pictures on the grounds kiss each other on the cheek all the time.

I thought the easement should never have been allowed to be policed by the church. They did it initially to stop protesters from gathering there during church conferences, but it feels like the city gave them too much power.

Posted by: James F | July 12, 2009 5:29 PM

Things are steadily trending toward acceptance of same-sex relationships. Check out this graph from fivethirtyeight.com. Any chance we can get acceptance of evolution to move like that?

Posted by: The Skepdick | July 12, 2009 5:40 PM

This is, of course, no different than the mutawa in Saudi Arabia, except perhaps in scope. "Think what we tell you, do what we tell you, or we will ....." You get the picture.

Bastards.

Posted by: mxh | July 12, 2009 5:59 PM

"They claimed in 2003 this would never happen, they were never going to arrest anyone," he said. "It's clear now they do have an agenda."

That's why when you make a business deal, you get things in writing.

Posted by: Rob | July 12, 2009 6:38 PM

Maybe they weren't naive, but rather clever. I hope so - good on them. If I weren't several thousand miles away I'd pop over and FIND a man to kiss. And I'm straight.

Posted by: Shoggoth | July 12, 2009 6:56 PM

From the news story:

"The church contends the couple was "asked to stop engaging in inappropriate behavior just as any other couple would have been. They became argumentative and used profanity and refused to leave the property. They were arrested and then given a citation for criminal trespass by SLPD."

Were they trespassing? I'm no defender of the Mormons, but that's a rather significant detail. Trespassing is a civil offense, not an ecclesiastical one, and a church is well within its rights to call the cops on people who won't leave its (private) property when requested.

If they were on public propery, obviously, the church (and those security guards) are the ones who broke the law.

Speaking of, how did those guards "detain" the two men? Here in NY a security guard is just a guy doing a job - he's a civilian without any special police powers. Apart from a Citizen's Arrest or clear self-defense a guard cannot put his hands on anyone against their will.

Posted by: Rick | July 12, 2009 7:29 PM

I guess I shouldn't be surprised... but it is the 21st century... and we supposedly live in the 'free-est' country in the world.

I guess we're free if you express the right opinions and behaviors.

Posted by: Lynna | July 12, 2009 7:34 PM

Long before that easement was turned into Church property, my brother and I were in SLC taking photos for a postcard/brochure/calendar company. We were well off the main plaza, and I had called the Church administration offices beforehand to get permission for photos and to find out what the rules were -- nevertheless, two CIA-looking guys with earpieces stopped us. "I have a guy here with a beard, and he's taking pictures." The security guy worked for the Church and he was patrolling public property as if it belonged to the Church.

Posted by: Leigh | July 12, 2009 7:38 PM

As a person who's been the victim of a pretty nasty assault as a result of affection towards my same sex partner, in a considerably less scary state than Utah (New Mexico, but still), this brings back awful fucking memories for me.

Heterosexual Christian bastards will stop at nothing to hurt you when you don't fit into their nice, shiny norms of what love should look like.

Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip | July 12, 2009 7:53 PM

I blame the New Atheists for this!

Posted by: Zar | July 12, 2009 8:03 PM

Remember when the mormons got offended and claimed persecution because HBO's "Big Love" had a temple wedding scene?

Hey, I'm getting a message from my hat. It says "Fuck the CoLDS".

Posted by: Red John | July 12, 2009 8:22 PM

Hmm, I was just in Salt Lake City. I had to drive up there to see Bruno because none of the theaters in Utah County, where I live, are showing the movie. Maybe I'll have to make another trip and kiss a guy on Temple Square to protest this. Fucking Mormons.

Posted by: Holbach | July 12, 2009 8:25 PM

Red John @ 29

Yes, fucking Mormons, and most definitely, morons.

Posted by: BubbaRich | July 12, 2009 8:44 PM

PZ,

You're falling for a lie. I thought you were a little more skeptical than this. Several of your followers seem to have fallen for it, too.

This was not about a "peck on the cheek." That would never be noticed on the square, as there are a million good reasons even in the Mormon world for a peck on the cheek between men.

They were first asked to stop their PDA, then they were asked to leave. They refused to do both, to make a political statement; sort of like Rosa Parks, if she had been arrested for having sex on a Montgomery bus.

Do you encourage sexual affection during your classes? I mean by humans, not cephalopods. Because that's the equivalent of what you're whining about here. There are plenty of good things to complain about from the LDS church, like the semi-honest and semi-legal campaign against Prop 8, or the way they strongly recommend to refrain from dating until age 16. But sexual behavior and intoxication are exactly the kind of things they were expected to moderate on the private square.

Posted by: BF | July 12, 2009 9:17 PM

BubbaRich @ #33: And how long have you been a Mormon?

Posted by: Monado | July 12, 2009 9:31 PM

"He started swearing at me" is one of the easiest accusations to make in order to excuse an over-the-top reaction.

Posted by: Red John | July 12, 2009 9:51 PM

"Pro-life people demonstrating in front of abortion clinics get arrested all the time."

The difference is that the anti-choicers are probably doing something illegal when they are arrested.

Posted by: karol | July 12, 2009 10:16 PM

BF | July 12, 2009 9:32 PM wrote

By the way, anti-choicers get arrested because they're violent, hateful, aggressive, screeching idiots. Kinda like you.
========================

BF
Faggots get arested because they are perverts and child molesters, just like you.

Is this article below about you or is it about your partner??

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/family/1319

A Real Duke Rape Case
Written by Selwyn Duke
Tuesday, 30 June 2009 15:15

We all remember the infamous Duke University rape frame-up case, in which three white lacrosse players were falsely accused of raping a black female stripper. It was front-page news coast to coast, as it had all the elements of a mainstream-media cause célèbre: the perfect victim and the perfect villains, a “downtrodden” black woman of modest means and three “privileged” white college boys. Thus did the hard-left alliance of media, academia, and a Democrat prosecutor try its best to lynch the three, and if the stripper’s story hadn’t changed with the wind, the students could very well be sitting in prison currently.

But now we have a real Duke rape case, and one that largely conforms to the above narrative. Frank Lombard, Duke’s associate director of the Center for Health Policy, faces federal criminal charges for offering his adopted five-year-old son for sex. Where are the parallels? Lombard is white and well-to-do while his victim, the son, is black (Lombard also has a second adopted son, who is black as well).

Yet there are also differences. One is that, unlike the tenuous lacrosse-player case, authorities have Lombard dead to rights. Writes the blog Self Evident Truths:

The arrest warrant states that a person, later identified as Lombard, used video chat on the internet to perfom [sic] sex acts on a child under the age of ten.... The complaint says Lombard's chat room ID lists him as "perv dad for fun."

The warrant states that an astute police detective contacted Lombard through Yahoo! Instant Messenger. Lombard admitted performing sexual acts on his adopted five year old son. He wrote that he would drug the boy with Benadryl before molesting him. He admitted that he waited to molest the boy until his partner was out of town.

The warrant continues describing the next day, when Lombard offered his five year old to the detective to perform sex acts on him. The detective said he lived out of state, making the solicitation a federal offense.

There are also other differences between the cases. One is that there is no reason to expect the media to do anything but bury this story posthaste. Why? Because, despite the aforementioned parallels, it doesn’t completely accord with today’s favored victimizer/victim narrative, as Lombard is a homosexual, making the victim a child who was adopted by a homosexual. Thus, while Lombard’s sexual inclination alone is enough to make the mainstream media treat this case with the “utmost discretion,” there is an additional factor: disseminate the facts of the crime enough, and people just may get the crazy notion that it’s lunacy to let homosexuals adopt children, especially little boys. So you’ve just got to watch the information you put in the yahoos’ heads.

Not surprisingly, this double standard is already apparent in the reportage. In the Duke lacrosse case, not only was the story front page, but an accuser of the easiest virtue was painted in the best light. For example, the stripper was often called an “exotic dancer,” which is much like calling a prostitute an exotic blind date. In contrast, now the mainstream media seem most reluctant to reveal Lombard’s homosexuality or the adopted victim’s race.

So, as far as how this story will most likely unfold, there are four things I cannot envision happening. First, I don’t foresee Duke’s administration and faculty coming out as a lynch mob and convicting Lombard in the court of public opinion. Second, don’t expect Jesse Jackson et al. to venture to Durham County and play the race card like a Vegas high roller, even though this case lends itself perfectly to it. A white man who adopts a black boy to keep as a sex slave, anyone?

Next, at risk of being redundant, don’t hold your breath waiting for the mainstream stream media to get on board; like the National Organization for Women, with its deafening silence regarding the savaging of Sarah Palin and women’s plight in Moslem nations, they care not about little victims but leftist agendas.

Lastly, the News & Observer tells us that Lombard is “a licensed clinical social worker with a master's degree in social work, [and] is a health-disparities researcher who studies HIV/AIDS in the rural South” (read: professional victimologist). So, not that any more evidence of his ideological persuasion was necessary, but it’s obvious that the man is thoroughly liberal in his professional life — and libertine in his personal life. Yet don’t expect the purveyors of pablum to be point this out, either.

Speaking of the race card, the hierarchy of victim groups is much like a deck of cards: black is a good hand, but it’s trumped by female. And, it appears, homosexual trumps everything.

Photo of Frank Lombard: AP Images

Posted by: Noadi | July 12, 2009 10:29 PM

PZ has requested we give people 3 comments before tearing into them. Well in this case fuck that because Karol has so far crossed the line she's isn't going to get a strike 3 from me.

Have you never heard of the concept of summarizing? It's when you take something long and make it shorter rather than spamming the comments by posting an entire page. Then you leave a link to the fucked up bigoted piece of trash you dug up.

As for the argument you cut and pasted instead of making for yourself, it's pure nonsense. The most frequent molesters of children are biological parents, who are presumably straight. So by the "logic" shown there no one should be allowed to raise their own children. The vast majority of them just can't be trusted because a very few abuse the trust they've been given.

I could keep going but I'll let everyone else have a go at you too.

Posted by: Shoggoth | July 12, 2009 10:36 PM

Louis,

"Also doesn't the legal charge of trespass imply actual damage (not mere access) to property had occurred?"

No. Trespass does not require property destruction, intended or actual.

Posted by: karol | July 12, 2009 10:48 PM

Posted by: Noadi | July 12, 2009 10:29 PM

As for the argument you cut and pasted instead of making for yourself, it's pure nonsense. The most frequent molesters of children are biological parents, who are presumably straight. So by the "logic" shown there no one should be allowed to raise their own children. The vast majority of them just can't be trusted because a very few abuse the trust they've been given.
==========================================
Noadi,
Do you mean to say that all children should be put up for adoption and than raised by couple of faggots where one of them is a "licensed clinical social worker with a master's degree in social work" like the one in the example that I provided for you??
You make my work very easy with your auto-pilot line of argument taken out of BIG HOMO book of propaganda.
Cheers,

Posted by: Noadi | July 12, 2009 10:54 PM

Thank you for proving you aren't also a hateful bigot but don't understand sarcasm either. Great job.

Here let me make this simple with small words. Just because one person does something wrong doesn't make everyone in a group with them is bad. So straight parents aren't bad even though some molest their children and not all gay people are bad because soem of them molest children. If I used that logic then everyone I know named Karol would be an immature, hate filled woman that I woudln't want to be within 100 miles of.

Posted by: MikeinJapan | July 12, 2009 11:03 PM

@karol
Everything seems easy when you've accomplished the difficult task of stuffing your own head as far up your ass as you've managed. Bravo.

Posted by: karol | July 12, 2009 11:12 PM

Posted by: Noadi | July 12, 2009 10:54 PM

Here let me make this simple with small words. Just because one person does something wrong doesn't make everyone in a group with them is bad. So straight parents aren't bad even though some molest their children and not all gay people are bad because soem of them molest children. If I used that logic then everyone I know named Karol would be an immature, hate filled woman that I woudln't want to be within 100 miles of.
======================================================
Noadi,

If what you say is true, how come than all faggots in North America are represented and lead by homosexual pedophiles??
People like publisher and editor of Toronto homosexual magazine XTRA, Mr. Gerald Hannon who is well known proponent and promoter of homosexual pedophilia ever since he published his now famous article “Men Loving Boys Loving Men” in XTRA’s predecessor magazine “BODY POLITICS”.
Just read:
http://www.rbebout.com/mlb/gh.htm
http://www.rbebout.com/mlb/mlb.htm

Posted by: karol | July 12, 2009 11:33 PM

osted by: MikeinJapan | July 12, 2009 11:03 PM

@karol
Everything seems easy when you've accomplished the difficult task of stuffing your own head as far up your ass as you've managed. Bravo.
========================================================

MikeinJapan

I do not care if you gay boys screw each other in the ass as long as the faggots on receiving end of sodomy do not prepare and serve my food or come anywhere near me. All of my objection on that front are driven by concerns for my own health and have nothing to do with alleged homophobia, as I am not willing to risk my health just because some of you boys have your rectums so damaged that fecal matter leaks from your digestive tract into your abdominal cavity and turns you into human vectors spreading all kinds of nasty stuff.

Posted by: Noadi | July 12, 2009 11:39 PM

Wow, totally ignorant of biology and straight sexuality too.

First of all, the intestines and colon where feces is produced is part of the abdomen and in the abdominal cavity. If the colon ruptures you don't go spreading disease because A: germs have to get on your hands or in your lungs to get easily spread and most people can't access their abdominal cavity with those and B: you're likely to be dead within a very short amount of time. Now people of any sexual orientation not washing their hands after using the bathroom, that's a genuine risk to health so make sure you do it.

Second, another big shock but plenty of straight couples enjoy anal sex too.

Posted by: Monado | July 12, 2009 11:43 PM

There are no bones in an early term abortion.

Posted by: Krystalline Apostate | July 12, 2009 11:46 PM

If what you say is true, how come than all faggots in North America are represented and lead by homosexual pedophiles??

Uh oh, somebody's been smoking ideological crack again. Karol, you need to lay off the glass pipe, it does nothing for your brain. If you knew anything @ all about gay America, you'd know that a common complaint amongst younger LGBT people under the drinking age, is that they get avoided because they're not of drinking age. If you knew anything about psychology, you'd know that pedophilia is about a lust for innocence, not gender - & that straight molesters outnumber the gay molesters by about 50 to 1. I've heard all this nonsense before - Ginsburg, NAMBLA, all the old horseshit that should be compost by now. The truth is, you can't conflate homosexuality w/pedophilia: they're distinct, in accordance w/the DSM (homosexuality isn't listed in it, BTW: pedophilia is, as it's a form of paraphilia). The scaremongering tactic of 'gays will rape your children!' is usually symptomatic of some deeply disturbed issues on the part of the stumper, to which I suggest you get therapy for, & quick too.

Posted by: Red John | July 12, 2009 11:52 PM

Yeah karol. Because that's exactly what anti-choice protestors do.

Posted by: Lynna | July 13, 2009 12:01 AM

Well, here we go again. Abortion.

There's the nasty scent of questionable pleasure being derived by pro-lifers who wallow in the worst of the worst abortion details. And if they can spice it up with a few lies or half truths, so much the better.

I wonder if they get a taste for this by reading the bible or the Book of Mormon.

Posted by: karol | July 13, 2009 12:12 AM

Posted by: molliebatmit | July 12, 2009 11:38 PM

Karol #44:

Early term abortions (surgical abortions) cause that a bone fragments of aborted baby get embedded in walls of uterus of women who had that procedure. During subsequent pregnancy as uterine walls expand to accommodate growing baby sharp ends of these bone fragments start to protrude from walls of uterus and they rip amniotic sac. Just read two quotes one from Jill Stanek and the other from Jill Doctoroff that Iam posting below.

Not that a petty matter of fact would stop you, but both quotes you post deal with late-term abortions. Early-term abortions cannot possibly cause "bone fragments" to become embedded in the walls of the uterus, as bone does not form until rather late in development.
============================================
molliebatmit try this link:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/10/10/barbara-kay-poland-s-quot-preemie-miracle-quot-is-an-embarrassing-postscript-to-henry-morgentaler-s-order-of-canada.aspx

Barbara Kay, Poland's "preemie miracle" is an embarrassing postscript to Henry Morgentaler's Order of Canada
Posted: October 10, 2008,

.....Dr Morgentaler was born in Poland. By coincidence CNN has been running a series this week, Eye on Poland, which offers "wide-ranging reports on this complex country tackling a time of transition; from Warsaw to Sopot, to Gdansk, Krakow and Lodz." The series has much to say about the country' history, economy, political progress, arts and so forth. But thanks to information I received via Vancouver medical researcher Brent Rooney, who focuses on premature risk factors, here is a little known fact about Poland that is unlikely to be aired on CNN: Between 1989 and 1993, Poland's abortion rate per 100 live births plummeted by 98% ."

An XPT birth is one that occurs at 28 or under weeks gestation (normal gestation is between 39 and 42 weeks) - and amongst the many other deficits associated with XPT is Cerebral Palsy. The risk of Cerebral Palsy is about 38 times higher in XPB births than in the overall newborn population: that is, a live birth at 28 weeks or less leads to a more than 3700% increase in Cerebral Palsy. So naturally any young woman contemplating a family would want to know how to minimize the risk of an XPT birth.

Here's where the statistic I mentioned above about Poland gets interesting. While the Polish XPT rate has dropped by 21% between 1980-2006, the U.S. preterm birth rate has escalated by 44%. The reason for Poland's "preemie miracle" can be found in the induced abortion rates for the corresponding years. In 1989 Poland instituted a very restrictive abortion law. In the next four years induced abortion rates went down by 98% per 100 live births. Opponents of the law predicted a health disaster. But not only did the preterm rate decrease, maternal mortality also declined by 41% according to studies reflecting rates from 1995-97, while infant mortality decreased by 25%. You can check out the uncontested research link between "prior first trimester induced abortion" as an "immutable medical risk factor associated with preterm birth" here......

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | July 13, 2009 12:21 AM

Between 1989 and 1993, Poland's abortion rate per 100 live births plummeted by 98%

bullshit. it merely went underground(and abroad), as the procedure first became contested, then illegal. learn history, dumbass.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | July 13, 2009 12:28 AM

your rectums so damaged that fecal matter leaks from your digestive tract into your abdominal cavity and turns you into human vectors spreading all kinds of nasty stuff.

anatomy fail. however, your obsession with anal sex has been duly noted.

Posted by: Lynna | July 13, 2009 12:31 AM

Okey, doke, no more nicey-nicey for Karol. You raise the same objection in comment 70 as you raised earlier. Your objection was answered, negated, proven wrong by Noadi's post at 57.

Read the replies before you repeat yourself.

Posted by: Noadi | July 13, 2009 12:35 AM

Sorry but the medical facts just don't hold up. Even cursory research shows that Poland still has one of the worst rates of infant and maternal mortality in Europe though it has improved in recent years. Sweden where abortion is legal has far lower instances of infant mortality and preterm birth. Correlation does not equal causation.

Posted by: Red John | July 13, 2009 12:41 AM

I think karol is just upset because she can't get anyone to drill her in the ass.

Posted by: Kimi | July 13, 2009 12:42 AM

@ #55
"....as long as they don't prepare my food?" What, is it catching?

ACK! I've caught the gay!

Posted by: Krystalline Apostate | July 13, 2009 12:46 AM

Careful! Karol might catch something from all the ass which has been laughed off.

LMBO!

Posted by: karol | July 13, 2009 12:49 AM

Posted by: Noadi | July 12, 2009 11:39 PM

Wow, totally ignorant of biology and straight sexuality too.

First of all, the intestines and colon where feces is produced is part of the abdomen and in the abdominal cavity. If the colon ruptures you don't go spreading disease because A: germs have to get on your hands or in your lungs to get easily spread and most people can't access their abdominal cavity with those and B: you're likely to be dead within a very short amount of time. Now people of any sexual orientation not washing their hands after using the bathroom, that's a genuine risk to health so make sure you do it.

Second, another big shock but plenty of straight couples enjoy anal sex too.
========================================================
Noadi,
Thanks for bringing traight couples into it as well.
I just hate to burst your bubble we are not talking about ruptures of your colon that causes immidiate septic shock and death.
We are talking about small nicks and tears that cause slow leaks and chronic infection of abdominal fluids that in turn cause migration of white blood cells from the bloodstream into abdominal cavity to fight that infection.
Result of that migration of white blood cells is a low white bllod cells cout in blood samples (fully blown AIDS sumptom). Other result is inability to fight any common infections.
In essence faggots and straight, and happily married females on receiving end of sodomy become common disease vectors incubating, harbouring and spreading all kinds of infectious bacteria and viruses.

Noadi,
Does that explain to you how it all works??

Posted by: Strangel | July 13, 2009 12:57 AM

Kkkarol,

You sound pretty defensive. Did this happen to you?

Posted by: karol | July 13, 2009 1:04 AM

Krystalline Apostate,
Call me GERMOPHOBE if you must,I am trying to explain things to you in some simple terms.
If you do not like it try this:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t05384820w124242/

Charles E. Edmiston Jr.1, 2 , Michael P. Goheen1, 2, Sven Kornhall1, 2, Frank E. Jones1, 2 and Robert E. Condon1, 2

(1) Surgical Microbiology Research Laboratory, Department of Surgery, Medical College of Wisconsin, 8700 W. Wisconsin Avenue, 53226 Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
(2) Department of Pathology, Indiana University School of Medicine, Indianapolis, Indiana, USA

Abstract Fecal contamination of the peritoneal cavity is a serious and potentially life-threatening event. While numerous models have been developed to study the pathogenesis of intraabdominal infection, to date, most investigations have failed to focus on the adherence of the contaminants to the serosal mesothelium. In the present investigation, the cecal ligation and puncture technique (CLP) was performed in Sprague-Dawley rats to study the following: (a) the kinetics of microbial adherence to the serosal mesothelium, (b) the stability of the aerobic and anaerobic intraperitoneal/mesothelial populations, following extended saline lavage, and (c) the impact of antimicrobial lavage on the stability of the mesothelial microbial populations. The Enterobacteriaceae rapidly colonized the serosal mesothelium and were the predominant flora up to 4 hours post-CLP. After 8 hours, the Bacteroides fragilis group represented the predominant peritoneal wash and mesothelial-associated microorganisms. Extended saline lavage failed to significantly reduce the mesothelial microbial populations. While antimicrobial lavage produced an immediate decrease in mesothelial microbial recovery, the results were transitory and the microbial populations achieved or exceeded prelavage levels at 24 hours postlavage. Microbial colonization of the peritoneal mesothelial surface is a rapid and stable phenomena following penetrating injury to the distal bowel. The results further suggest that the mesothelial populations are resistant to intraperitoneal lavage.

Posted by: Krystalline Apostate | July 13, 2009 1:07 AM

In essence faggots and straight, and happily married females on receiving end of sodomy become common disease vectors incubating, harbouring and spreading all kinds of infectious bacteria and viruses.

& of course, condoms don't stop any of that, do they? & 'abstinence only' works, except when it doesn't. Seriously, where do you get your info? WingNutDaily? Human beings are virtually major bacteria traps anyways. You want to whinge on about this 1 small peccadillo? Just wrap yourself in a full body condom, & stay in it 24/7, if that's your thing, but jeez, don't try to educate people who know way better (& more) than you do.

Posted by: Krystalline Apostate | July 13, 2009 1:17 AM

Call me GERMOPHOBE if you must,I am trying to explain things to you in some simple terms.

Trust me, I didn't need your abstract. I knew all that already. The human body is...well, for people like yourself, downright icky. So - regardless of all the health issues, are you suggesting that people who indulge in this sort of practice be segregated? Legislated against? What's your issue? I repeat this question again, in BOLD: Would you then say, that we should segregate society in accordance w/the anals having their own ghettos, & the non-anals get suburbia? Simple yes/no will suffice.

Posted by: Rorschach | July 13, 2009 1:21 AM

In the present investigation, the cecal ligation and puncture technique (CLP) was performed in Sprague-Dawley rats

*Facepalm*

Posted by: Noadi | July 13, 2009 1:42 AM

I like the assumption that I'm happily married. Half of it's right, I am happy.

Okay, apparently you got confused by the big words in that abstract. It was a study in RATS (which are not people) on HOW bacteria from a perforated colon grows in the abdominal cavity and the effectiveness of lavage (rinsing the affected area) as a treatment. None of this applies to your argument as we already know that colon perforation leads to serious infection and potentially death and that nowhere in there does it refer to micro-perforations causing chronic illness or those perforations being caused by anal sex.

Posted by: karol | July 13, 2009 1:46 AM

Krystalline Apostate,

Try this variation on the same theme that also leads to significant migration of white blood cells out of your blood stream to fight infection and in the end turns you into a vector.

http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/40000238/
Ano-rectal Abscess

An anorectal abscess is a collection of pus in the anal or rectal region. It may be caused by infection of an anal fissure, sexually transmitted infections or blocked anal glands:

Perianal abscess: commonest (around 50%) caused by direct extension of sepsis in the intersphincteric plane caudal to the perianal skin.
Ischiorectal abscess: (22-39%) results from extension of sepsis through the external sphincter into the ischiorectal space.
Intersphincteric abscess: (0-18%) depending on effort made to find them, sepsis confined to intersphincteric space.
Supralevator abscess: (2-9%) produce horseshoe abscess track.
Postanal abscess: posteriorly based below the level of the anococcygeal ligament.
Epidemiology
High-risk groups include diabetics, immunocompromised patients, people who engage in receptive anal sex, and patients with inflammatory bowel disease.
Deep rectal abscesses may be caused by intestinal disorders such as Crohn's disease or diverticulitis....

Posted by: karol | July 13, 2009 2:11 AM

Krystalline Apostate,

Here are some other possibilities,

It does not take rocket scientist to conclude that sodomy (anal sex) would also tend to obstruct anal crypts and mechanically pump fecal matter containing bacteria and common viruses into anal crypts blocking their normal function of lubricating anus. Repeated sodomy would tend to drive fecal matter deeper and deeper into anal crypts, cause inflammation and create plugs blocking
opening of the anal crypts into anus.

Eventually this inflammation and abscesses would have to drain somewhere and that somewhere might as well be peritoneal (abdominal) cavity. It seems more than possible that repeated sodomy actually changes anatomy by plugging drainage from anal crypts into rectum and diverting this drainage to peritoneal (abdominal) cavity.

That would explain why homosexuals on receiving end of anal sex have to lubricate their asses. Very interesting.
It might also explain this thing about AIDS as it shows that it is not necessary to cause a tears in walls of anal tunnel in order to cause infections as it seems that "Normal Homosexual Use of Anus" does it as well.

Cheers,
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic2733.htm

Quote:

Perianal Abscess
Article Last Updated: Mar 3, 2006

Author: Andre Hebra, MD, Chief, Division of Pediatric Surgery, Medical University of South Carolina

Andre Hebra is a member of the following medical societies: Alpha Omega Alpha, American Academy of Pediatrics, American College of Surgeons,
American Medical Association, American Pediatric Surgical Association, Association for Academic Surgery, Society of Laparoendoscopic Surgeons, South Carolina Medical Association, Southeastern Surgical Congress, and
Southern Medical Association

Coauthor(s): Patrick B Thomas, MD, Fellow, Department of Pediatric Surgery, Texas Children's Hospital

Editors: Marc D Basson, MD, PhD, Chief of Surgery, John D Dingell VA Medical Center; Professor, Department of Surgery, Wayne State University School of Medicine; Francisco Talavera, PharmD, PhD, Senior Pharmacy Editor,
eMedicine; Amy L Friedman, MD, Professor of Surgery, Director of Transplantation, State University of New York Upstate Medical University College of Medicine, Syracuse; Paolo Zamboni, MD, Professor of Surgery, Chief of Day Surgery Unit, Chair of Vascular Diseases Center, University of Ferrara, Italy; John Geibel, MD, DSc, MA, Professor, Department of Surgery, Section of Gastrointestinal Medicine and Department of Cellular and Molecular Physiology, Yale University School of Medicine; Director of Surgical Research, Department of Surgery, Yale-New Haven Hospital

Author and Editor Disclosure

Synonyms and related keywords: anal abscess, perianal abscess, anorectal abscess, ischiorectal abscess, perianal fistula, digital rectal examination, DRE, rectal pain

Perianal abscess represents an infection of the soft tissues surrounding the anal canal, with formation of a discrete abscess cavity. The severity and depth of the abscess are quite variable, and the abscess cavity
is often associated with formation of a fistulous tract. For that reason, both perianal abscess and perianal fistula are discussed in this article.

For excellent patient education resources, visit eMedicine's Esophagus, Stomach, and Intestine Center. Also, see eMedicine's patient
education articles Anal Abscess and Rectal Pain.

Problem
Anorectal abscesses originate from infection arising in the cryptoglandular epithelium lining the anal canal. The internal anal sphincter is believed to serve normally as a barrier to infection passing from the gut lumen to the deep perirectal tissues. This barrier can be
breached through the crypts of Morgagni, which can penetrate through the internal sphincter into the intersphincteric space. Once infection gains
access to the intersphincteric space, it has easy access to the adjacent perirectal spaces. Extension of the infection can involve the intersphincteric space, ischiorectal space, or even the supralevator space.
In some instances, the abscess remains contained within the intersphincteric space. The variety of anatomic sequelae of the primary infection is translated into variable clinical presentations.

Frequency
The peak incidence of anorectal abscesses is in the third to fourth decades of life. Men are affected more frequently than women, with a male-to-female predominance of 2:1 to 3:1. Approximately 30% of patients
with anorectal abscesses report a previous history of similar abscesses that either resolved spontaneously or required surgical intervention.......

Posted by: Rorschach | July 13, 2009 2:20 AM

karol thinks an awful lot about anuses.And talks out of his/her own.

Posted by: Jewbacca | July 13, 2009 2:28 AM

After #99, I am retracting my denial of Karol's Poe status as it is unsupportable. I can almost hear his/her/its inner Beavis giggling as he/she/it types phrases like this:
mechanically pump fecal matter
create plugs
plugging drainage
That would explain why homosexuals on receiving end of anal sex have to lubricate their asses

I wonder if this could be avoided by only penetrating with Baby Jesus butt plugs anointed with Crisco.

Posted by: watcher35 | July 13, 2009 2:34 AM

The Salt Lake Tribune article is more telling; "They became argumentative and confrontational" after they were told to leave. It was then they were cited for trespassing when they refused to leave.

Really, not about PDA. but about gays demanding attention on private property. I really hope they decide to fight the ticket, as I would love to see the law vetted in this area. Hey, maybe they could get the ACLU to take the case!

Posted by: raven | July 13, 2009 2:54 AM

It is no secret the Mormons run a theocracy called Utah. However, the percentage of Mormons is dropping fast. Statistics vary but it is now something like 65%. It has been projected that Mormons will be a minority in a few decades. The LDS church disputes that but they would anyway. SLC, the main city is majority heathen.

The LDS church also has a high dropout rate. They are a highly regimented group with lots of rules, regulations, and meetings and a lot of people just get tired of it and quit.

I wouldn't care to claim that the LDS church will ever lose its stranglehold on Utah in my lifetime. After that, it might.

Posted by: Dancaban | July 13, 2009 3:04 AM

Russians do it all the time and full on! Having been on the receiving end once (so to speak) I know! Send Putin down there...

Posted by: Red John | July 13, 2009 3:13 AM

Regarding 108, I forgot to add that just because he said it doesn't make it true. I just didn't see that in the article from the Salt Lake Tribune.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | July 13, 2009 3:22 AM

what the bloody hell do zoophilia, necrophilia, and cannibalism have to do with this thread?

though, if I were Karol, I wouldn't eat at restaurants at all. the chances that the staff spits (or sprinkles pubic hair) in his food is pretty damn high, if this is how he comes across in meatspace, too.

Posted by: Jewbacca, propagator of erroneous information | July 13, 2009 3:35 AM

Red John @112,

Thanks for the correction. I wasn't aware that had changed since I was last in SLC. Mea culpa.

Oh, and regarding Mr. Aune's statement, your caveat in #111 is entirely correct, and -- take note, people arguing that they had it coming -- also applies to claims of the SLPD (which, I will note, carefully fall short of actually saying they refused to leave, leaving that to implication).

Karol @110, meet my killfile.

Posted by: XD | July 13, 2009 4:55 AM

This is, of course, no different than the mutawa in Saudi Arabia, ...

Or the Basij in Iran.

Posted by: Rorschach | July 13, 2009 5:47 AM

Karol has been around before. He is a barely literate Canadian. He is also seriously mentally ill. .

I dont seem to remember.But it would explain it.
Since the utterings are mabus-like , maybe PZ should just delete them.

Posted by: Louis | July 13, 2009 6:39 AM

@ Littlejohn #34:

I have visited a few times, I even lived in the USA a few years back, and I'd NEVER dream of being anything less than boot lickingly fawning to a real police officer (or even campus security), I learned that one the hard way, a way not too dissimilar from the scenario you describe (I didn't get a kicking, but according to my very scared room-mate I was a hair's breadth away, he was so terrified I believed him). Being cheeky to coppers is a UK hobby when you're a kid (I don't bother now I'm a grown up, I sympathise with their impossibly hard job too much!).

The "badge holders" in this instance aren't coppers though, they are security guards, not representatives of the state, they are mall cops for Jebus. Granted the specific phrase I chose might be a little inappropriate, but it was intended as a paraphrase of something that someone might say. I understand being asked to leave, and complying, but detained? By an LDS plastic policeman? Surely these people don't have the right to detain anyone. Can't the gents detained by these cardboard cut out coppers sue for everything.....twice? After all they committed no crime and were not detained by a lawful authority. If simply raising one's voice (in this case in annoyance at an outrageous double standard) is a detainable crime then I'd like the output of a couple of right wing radio DJs taken into account....

Louis

P.S. @ Shoggoth #45 Ah ok, I was wrong. Thanks for the clarification.

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 13, 2009 8:45 AM

"....as long as they don't prepare my food?" What, is it catching?
ACK! I've caught the gay!

Apparently some people are stupid enough to think it's contagious.

In the mid-1990s, when I was living in MN, the annual OutFrount MN statewide LGBT activists conference was being held in Alexandria. For our main dinner on Saturday, several members of the waitstaff decided to don latex gloves to serve us our dinner. Ours was the only group for whom they

In college, some little counter-staff freak-bigot at the mall food court, ran out from behind her counter to take the ketchup my roommate and I had used to ensure no "normal" people might catch Teh Gay!

Hell, a week ago, a couple guys were kicked out of a restaurant in Texas--and threatened by a fuckwitted cop--for .

Posted by: co | July 13, 2009 8:48 AM

How much would you like to have your food prepared and served by young women who gets fucked by her German sheppard dog??

I'm intrigued. How good are these young ladies at cooking?

Posted by: Louis | July 13, 2009 9:24 AM

Well I for one only eat food prepared by people who have Teh ButtSecks. The antibodies generated by contact with Teh Gai protect me against Teh Stoopid*. I feel this is a good immunological bonus. It has prevented me from turning into Karol.

Louis

*I'd explain Teh Biologi behind this but it is very complex and far too hard for, well, anyone.

Posted by: Kseniya | July 13, 2009 9:35 AM

How dare you question Karol's intentions or sources. He cited World Net Daily!

Posted by: Frank | July 13, 2009 9:45 AM

I for one won't touch any food that hasn't been prepared by someone who has just engaged in lengthy and vigorous anal sex. There are many biological reasons for this that are really sciency and cool, and I don't want to bore you with the details, Karol, but it's basically to do with "pheromones n' shit".

It is an inalienable scientific fact that someone who has just had a good, thorough session of "the ol' sodomy" is 3000% more likely to cook with 476% more fresh fruit and vegetables, and other such trappings of a healthy diet.

This is totally true and thoroughly imbued with "awesome science", and I'm definitely not just making shit up to justify my prejudices. Because only a pig-ignorant bigot would do that. Right, Karol?

Posted by: Peter Ashby | July 13, 2009 10:31 AM

@Karol

You don't get it do you? this blog is filled with scientists and doctors who read your ignorant rants and go WTF? this stuff is so bad it isn't even wrong!

Come with Dr Peter into the anatomy museum, don't worry, all the nasty things are sealed in glass and immersed in formalin or plastinated. Now see this series of stained embryos? see the red colour marking bone formation? did you note the stage of development when it happens? good. That's right, it's not in the first trimester so cannot be present in Early Stage Abortions. THERE IS NO BONE THEN. We have molecular markers for bone formation as well as histochemical stains for calcium deposition. There is nothing even remotely hard in a first trimester embryo, no bones, no teeth, no nails.

Now this fact has been presented to you, it should cause you to doubt the truthfulness of the source you crudely copied and pasted. It's alright, you are with the experts now, we are here to disabuse you of your delusions, all you have to do is be willing to learn.

Posted by: Red John | July 13, 2009 10:33 AM

all you have to do is be willing to learn

Hear Hear!

Posted by: co | July 13, 2009 10:53 AM

Faggots posting on this blog are acting like a pack wild African dogs

Which have, arguably, the strongest family cohesion of any animals, including humans. But what firestarters have to do with that escapes me.

Posted by: Rorschach | July 13, 2009 10:58 AM

PZ,
please purge the karol from the blog.
It is just too retarded.

Posted by: Stu | July 13, 2009 11:00 AM

Oh, but Karol, sweetie, what about us straight people here that know more about biology than you do and still think your a bigoted sack of shit?

Also, thou doth protest too much...

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 13, 2009 11:08 AM

Faggots posting on this blog are extremely arrogant. Faggots posting on this blog have very short fuses. Faggots posting on this blog are extremely aggressive. Faggots posting on this blog are ignorant of basic biology. Faggots posting on this blog are ignorant of human anatomy. Faggots posting on this blog are too ignorant of science to carry a discussion on any subject that affects their lives. Faggots posting on this blog are acting like a pack wild African dogs.

Now I am confused. What does this idiot have against meatballs ?

Posted by: Louis | July 13, 2009 11:14 AM

@ MA Jeff #128:

And they are FAAAAAABULOUS dinner parties.

I think that Frank in #131 has the beginnings of it. "Pheromones and shit" is a proper scientifical term. I should know after all, I'm a scientifimetrician.

[Crazy hyperbole]

Personally, if my waitress hasn't fucked a dog, I don't tip. I know I'm harsh, but I'm equal opportunities harsh, dog fucking is a really low bar to get over. It's so EASY! I demand that every woman I speak to has had at least one abortion, I refuse to deal with anyone who hasn't abused a corpse and frankly all my service providers are into bestiality, necrophilia and sado-masochism (tell me, are they flogging a dead horse?).

Doesn't Karol get this? He/she/it is in the minority. I like nothing more than to relax on a Sunday cornholing a cat (or a catamite of course). Doesn't everyone? My Cadaver Cupboard is replete with ripe corpses just begging for a good buggering. Everyone I know has one of these in their mansions (paid for by the Atheist-Liberal-Jewish-Gay-Space-Lizard Conspiracy of course, which in turn is funded by abortion clinics. Foetuses make a really good profit on the demon black market. Obviously). Basically everyone except Karol is hip deep in sexual excitement with corpses, non-human animals and members of the same sex, and kids...don't forget the kids dammit. Because of course necrophilia, bestiality and paedophilia are the same thing as homosexuality or any other sexual practise that Karol disapproves of, right?

[/Crazy hyperbole]

Don't get angry with Karol. Mock it. "People" (and I use the term advisedly) like Karol are far too ridiculous to take seriously. That's what the political arena needs more of: moron baiting. When one of these chuckleheads raises their heads above the parapet don't shoot it off, that's what they want, laugh it off. Make the idiot slink back to its hole with its self-esteem in tatters. Either that or ignore it as the troll it clearly is.

Louis

Posted by: karol | July 13, 2009 11:19 AM

Posted by: co | July 13, 2009 10:53 AM

Faggots posting on this blog are acting like a pack wild African dogs
Which have, arguably, the strongest family cohesion of any animals, including humans. But what firestarters have to do with that escapes me.
============================
I just hate to burst your bubble but in Toronto, Canada old faggots working at Ontario Attorney General's Office are prosecuting young faggots who test positive for HIV/AIDS and charge them with attempted murder, same thing happens in Vancouver BC so this faggots family cohesion is not as strong as you are trying to project it to the rest of us,

see;
http://www.xtra.ca/public/Vancouver/The_recriminalization_of_queer_sex-1738.aspx

The re-criminalization of queer sex
ANALYSIS / How law and stigma conspire to use HIV to turn gay men against each other
Matt Mills / Vancouver / Wednesday, June 07, 2006

In February, a 28-year-old Vancouver man was charged with aggravated sexual assault. The VPD issued a press release about him under the heading "Wanted Sex Offender." It read in part: "It is alleged that he had unprotected sex with two Vancouver men denying that he was HIV-positive. Investigators are interested in speaking to anyone who can provide further information. .. Please contact Vancouver Police Sex Crimes Unit. The identity of all callers will be protected."

Xtra West spoke with the man's lawyer, Jason Gratl, who says his client is innocent, that he was the bottom in both cases, that he drove from Toronto to Vancouver to surrender himself when he found out the police were looking for him, and that both of the complainants continue to test HIV-negative many months after they fucked the accused.....

Posted by: Rick | July 13, 2009 11:27 AM

I guess I shouldn't be surprised... but it is the 21st century... and we supposedly live in the 'free-est' country in the world.

I guess we're free if you express the right opinions and behaviors.

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 13, 2009 11:31 AM

Here in the UK the action taken would have been illegal, unless the security guards could show it was both policy and practice to prohibit any public displays of affection. If they banned straight people kissing, and can could show they enforced that ban then they could get away with banning gays from kissing.

Otherwise as the law stands it is a offence here in the UK to deny goods or services to someone based on their sexuality. I am glad to say that when this law was going through Parliament it upset the religious.

Posted by: Watchman | July 13, 2009 11:37 AM

Karol appears to be going for the Guiness Book record for Most Spittle-Flecked Rants In One Day. I wish him the very best of luck.

Karol:

this faggots family cohesion is not as strong as you are trying to project it to the rest of us,

Karol, if you want to get into a cherry-picking contest to see who can come up with the most examples of dysfunctional homosexual relationships versus dysfunctional heterosexual relationships, I guarantee that by the time we're done you will have been scalded by a raging cloud of steaming bile -- your own.

Posted by: karol | July 13, 2009 11:47 AM

Posted by: Watchman | July 13, 2009 11:37 AM

Karol appears to be going for the Guiness Book record for Most Spittle-Flecked Rants In One Day. I wish him the very best of luck.

Karol:

this faggots family cohesion is not as strong as you are trying to project it to the rest of us,

Karol, if you want to get into a cherry-picking contest to see who can come up with the most examples of dysfunctional homosexual relationships versus dysfunctional heterosexual relationships, I guarantee that by the time we're done you will have been scalded by a raging cloud of steaming bile -- your own.
==========================================
Watchman,
If you want to stick you head in the sand and pretend that example that I gave you is an isolated incident be my guest.
Here is some more in the same vein;

http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/More_attempted_murder_charges-6899.aspx

More attempted murder charges
NEWS / Second Toronto man charged for failing to disclose HIV status
Xtra staff / Toronto / Thursday, June 04, 2009

A second Toronto man has been charged with attempted murder for failing to disclose his HIV status to a sexual partner.

The 46-year-old was arrested on Jun 4 and is facing one charge each of attempted murder, aggravated sexual assault, assault causing bodily harm and assault with a weapon.

According to a Toronto Police Service news release "the accused had unprotected sexual intercourse on multiple occasions after being informed that he was HIV-positive in March 2009" and that although the charges stem from sex the accused had with a woman "his partners may have been in both the gay and heterosexual communities."

The accused had his first appearance in court on the afternoon of Jun 4.

This is the second time that attempted murder charges have been laid in connection with HIV nondisclosure in recent months. On Apr 29 a 28-year-old Toronto man was charged with attempted murder for failing to disclose his HIV status to a male partner. In both cases police have issued public safety alerts encouraging anyone who may have had sex with him to come forward......

Posted by: Lynna | July 13, 2009 11:52 AM

I've had enough of Karol. I can't even read this discussion. We're so far off-topic and so far up Karol's obsession with assholes that it's unbearable.

Posted by: Stu | July 13, 2009 12:00 PM

He does seem like Freud's sock puppet, doesn't he?

Especially the hand up the ass part.

Posted by: karol | July 13, 2009 12:03 PM

Watchman,

If you want to know what really drives criminalization of HIV transmission in Toronto read this;

http://www.thestar.com/living/article/646871

Recession means tough times for sex workers

Falling prices for services 'causing a lot of misery' and raising fears prostitutes will take more risks

Jun 07, 2009 04:30 AM

Trish Crawford
LIVING REPORTER
Drag queen "Ray" was enraged when a late-night customer on Toronto's downtown track offered him $5 for oral sex recently.

"I didn't spend two hours getting my makeup on and all dressed up for that," says the 36-year-old former hairdresser from Venezuela, who usually charges $60 for the service.

These days, Ray is getting little more than callouses from standing all night near Jarvis and Wellesley, as the economic slump delivers an unexpected hit to the sex trade.
The vices – smoking, drinking, sex – are usually bulletproof during a recession, says economist Perry Sadorsky, who teaches at York University's Schulich School of Business....
Staff Sgt. Ed Roseto of 14 Division, which includes Parkdale, says the undercover officers involved in two sweeps there this winter did find clients "lowballing" prices, even though, after being arrested, they were found to have enough money on them for full price.

The Parkdale area has always had cheap prostitutes, he says, with females getting $20 for oral sex and male prostitutes getting $40. Men command higher prices, he says, and get double the amount, about $80, for intercourse...

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 13, 2009 12:07 PM

Anyone else get the sense that Karol touches himself everytime he writes "faggot"?

I just hope no one else has to touch his keyboard. I suspect it would be very sticky.

Posted by: Louis | July 13, 2009 12:08 PM

@ Rorschach #158:

That..THAT...is what you choose to welcome me "back" for?

LOL Thanks!

(BTW: I have less time to play, but I never went away!)

Karol is too much fun to be real. I'm betting frustrated 4chan-er, bog standard troll, or Poe. Meh, I could be wrong, I know the Karols of this world do exist (more's the pity).

Can't we just chew on Karol for fun before the inevitable removal from polite society* occurs?

Louis

*Polite society may not include actual politeness! Contents may have shifted during transit.

Posted by: Stu | July 13, 2009 12:15 PM

These feelings can best be addressed by a mental health professional Karol.

Sure, or a well-chosen accessory or two.

Posted by: ursa major | July 13, 2009 12:20 PM

@152

As a nurse I leave the diagnosing to the MDs. As far as any suspicions I have as to axis 1 and 2 diagnoses, I will keep those to myself.

an on-line biology textbook

cheers

Posted by: karol | July 13, 2009 12:29 PM

Denial is not a name of a river in Egypt, denial is what feminine homosexuals (queers) engage in when they are getting prosecuted by supermasculine homosexuals (faggots) for spreading HIV virus that does not even seem to exist.

Contrary to common misconception homosexuals are not uniform group of people.
Main division line in homosexual movement involves sex roles they assume and play in homosexual relationships.

On one end of that spectrum we have supermasculine homosexuals who play male roles in homosexual relationships. They are the proverbial “super-man” pumping iron every day at the gym, men who do only “manly” things. They are always on top not only during homosexual sex when they sodomise their partners but also in everyday life where they go into combat with other men in order to win; money, fame, influence etc. They value only manly traits of character; being tough, being aggressive, being non-emotional etc.

On the other end of that spectrum we have feminine homosexuals who play female roles in homosexual relationships. They concern themselves with arts, fashion, homemaking etc. They are always on the bottom not only during homosexual sex when they are getting sodomised their partners but also in everyday life when they suffer emotional and physical abuse at the hand of their partners and their friends. Feminine homosexuals on receiving end of sodomy also suffer blunt of AIDS/HIV infections due to auto-infection of abdominal cavity with fecal matter leaking out of digestive tract thru abrasions and perforations of wall of their rectums following sodomy.

Great many supermasculine homosexuals despise feminine homosexuals (queers) almost as much as they despise women in general. Supermasculine homosexuals’ attitude towards feminine homosexuals is very similar to that of misogynist men towards women but their hate and contempt for queers is magnified by two additional factors; one is that sodomy involves penis of super masculine homosexual coming in direct contact of fecal matter produced by the queer partner and secondly the fact that most queers, when they develop AIDS as a result of being sodomised, become vectors for all kinds of common infections. Hence, in the eyes of supermasculine homosexuals queers are dirty and diseased.

Let us now go to Pink Swastika and
"THE HOMOSEXUAL ROOTS OF THE NAZI PARTY”

http://www.abidingtruth.com/pfrc/books/pinkswastika/html/the_pinkswastika_4th_edition_-_final.htm

THE PINK SWASTIKA page 38

“The attack on the Sex Research Institute is often cited as an example of Nazi oppression of homosexuals. This is partly true, but as we shall see, the “oppression” fits into a larger context of internecine rivalry between two major homosexual groups. Magnus Hirschfeld, who headed the Institute, was a prominent Jewish homosexual. Hirschfeld also headed a “gay rights” organization called the Scientific-Humanitarian Committee (SHC), formed in 1897 to work for the repeal of Paragraph 175 of the German legal code, which criminalized homosexuality (Kennedy:230). The organization was also opposed to sadomasochism and pederasty, two of the favorite practices of the militaristic, Roehm-style homosexuals who figured so prominently in the early Nazi Party. Hirschfeld had formed the SHC to carry on the work of the pioneer “gay rights” activist, Karl Heinrich Ulrichs (1825-1895). Ulrichs had written against the concept of “Greek love” (pederasty) advocated by a number of other homosexuals in Germany.
One such advocate was Adolf Brand, who formed the Gemeinschaft der Eigenen (“Community of the Elite”) in 1902. The Gemeinschaft der Eigenen inspired the formation in 1920 of the German Friendship League, which changed its name in 1923 to the Society for Human Rights. The leaders of this group were instrumental in the formation and the rise of the Nazi Party. Adolf Brand published the world’s first homosexual periodical, Der Eigene (“The Elite” – Oosterhuis and Kennedy:cover). Brand was a pederast, child pornographer and anti-Semite, and, along with many homosexuals who shared his philosophies, developed a burning hatred of Magnus Hirschfeld and the SHC. When Hirschfeld’s Sex Research Institute was destroyed, the SA troops were under the general command of Ernst Roehm, a member of Brand’s spinoff group, the Society for Human Rights….”

The Divided Movement

This was not the last time homosexual leadership of the Nazis would attack other ideologically dissimilar homosexuals. Later in this discussion we will examine the so-called “pink triangle” homosexuals who were interned in concentration camps. The pink triangle, part of a scheme of variously-colored triangles used by the Nazis to identify specific classes of prisoners, was applied to those convicted under Paragraph 175 of the German Penal Code. Homosexuals were one of these classes, but according to Johansson,

[M]any of those convicted under Paragraph 175 were not homosexual: some were opponents of the regime such as Catholic priests or leaders of youth groups who were prosecuted on the basis of perjured testimony, while others were street hustlers from Berlin or Hamburg who had been caught up in a police dragnet (Johansson in Dynes:997).

As many as 6,000 of the approximately 10,000 “pink triangles” died in the work camps, but few, if any, were gassed in the death camps. Some of those who died met their deaths at the hands of homosexual Kapos (“trustees”) and guards of the SS. At first glance it is difficult to understand why the homosexual leaders of the Nazis would persecute other homosexuals on the basis of their sexual behavior. We alluded, in the matter of the Sex Research Institute, to the fact that the homosexual movement in Germany was divided into two diametrically opposed camps which some have called the “Fems” and the “Butches.” These terms are common among homosexuals today, as is the disdain “Butches” feel for “Fems.”
A researcher of the homosexual movement Gordon Westwood writes that masculine homosexuals “deplore [effeminate] behavior,” many considering effeminate homosexuals “repulsive” (Westwood:87). Another researcher, H. Kimball Jones, reports that reaction to “Fems” is often violent in the general homosexual community. “[They label them] ‘flaming faggot’ or ‘degenerate fag,’” with one homosexual exclaiming, “You know, I loathe these screaming fairies” (H.K.Jones:29). Jay and Young’s 1979 examination of the American homosexual movement, The Gay Report, contains numerous personal statements by masculine homosexuals critical of effeminacy. “Fem behavior can be vicious and destructive, demeaning to women and gay men,” says one. Another asserts, “To me someone who is ‘femme’ is a self-indulgent…petty, scheming, gossipy gay being whose self-image has been warped and shaped by unfortunate family situations” (Jay:294ff).
The most hostile to “Femmes” are precisely those homosexuals who deem themselves the most “masculine.” In The Homosexual Matrix, C.A. Tripp writes that “[f]ar to the other extreme, there are a number of utterly masculine, sometimes supermasculine homosexuals….They are obses- sed with everything male and eschew anything weak or effeminate….Unquestionably they represent the epitome of what can happen when an eroticized maleness gains the full backing of a value system that supports it” (Tripp:92). Cory and LeRoy, in their detailed discussion of homosexual culture, describe the scene in a typical American “leather bar”:

Here, sturdy swaggering males dressed in tight dungarees, leather jackets or heavy shoes, dark hued woolen shirts, and sometimes motorcycle helmets, aspire toward a super-masculine ideal…Behind the facade of robust exploits, the uniform of pretentious male prowess, the mask of toughness, there sometimes lies a dangerous personality that can express itself physically by substituting violence for erotic pleasure; capable of receiving sexual pleasure only by inflicting pain (or receiving it). The general atmosphere in such places is restless and brooding, and one can never be sure when the dynamite of violence will erupt (Cory and LeRoy:109).

Reading this description, one can imagine oneself looking into Munich’s Bratwurstgloeckl tavern, where the Brownshirts congregated, and finding the same cast of characters — only wearing different costumes.
This contrast of homosexual types is not simply a phenomenon of modern society. Greenberg writes about homosexuality among the Germans of the first centuries A.D.:

As war became more important to the Germans, the male warriors and their culture became dominant, and the status of women declined. Effeminacy and receptive homosexuality were increasingly scorned and repressed….The effeminate homosexual…was depicted as a foul monster….this stigmatization did not extend to active male homosexuality. [Later, acceptability of masculine oriented homosexuality declined under Christianity, which] was officially opposed to all forms of homosexuality (Greenberg:249f).

The authors do not wish to imply that all homosexuals fall into one or the other of these two simplistic stereotypes. The terms “Butch” and “Fem” in this study are used loosely to differentiate between two ideological extremes relating to the nature of homosexual identity. Generally in this work the German “Fems” are defined as homosexual men who acted like women. They were pacifists and accomodationists. Their goals were equality with heterosexuals and the “right to privacy,” and generally they opposed sex with young children. Their leaders were Karl Heinrich Ulrichs and Magnus Hirschfeld.
The “Butches,” on the other hand, were masculine homosexuals. They were militarists and chauvinists in the Hellenic mold. Their goal was to revive the pederastic military cults of pre-Christian pagan cultures, specifically the Greek warrior cult. They were often vicious misogynists and sadists. Their leaders included Adolf Brand and Ernst Roehm. The “Butches” reviled all things feminine. Their ideal society was the Maennerbund, an all-male “comradeship-in-arms” comprised of rugged men and boys (Oosterhuis and Kennedy:255). In their view, heterosexuals might be tolerated for the purpose of continuing the species, but effeminate homosexuals were considered to be subhuman, and thus intolerable.
Most of the estimated 1.2 to 2 million homosexuals in Germany at the time of the Third Reich undoubtedly fit somewhere between the two extremes of the movement. This may explain the fact that less than 2% of this population were prosecuted under anti-sodomy laws by the Nazis (Cory and LeRoy estimate that “Fems” make up 5-15% of male homosexuals. Cory and LeRoy:73). Most of those who were prosecuted can be shown to fit the profile of the “Fems.” Kurt Hiller, a ranking member of the SHC who later succeeded Hirschfeld, “estimated that 75 percent of the male homosexuals sympathized with the parties of the Right” (Johansson in Friedlander:233)….

Posted by: SC, OM | July 13, 2009 12:35 PM

I join the others in saying I'd be happy to see this raving lunatic banned.

Posted by: DingoJack | July 13, 2009 12:39 PM

Karol - I'm sure 'Ray' will let you play out your 'Nazi Superman' fantasy, despite your walrus moustache, and for only $5.00 too!. - :)
Stu - "It took hours to get the smile off his face" - DJ

Posted by: Watchman | July 13, 2009 12:40 PM

Oooh! Enormous cut-and-paste Godwin attack!!

Karol:

If you want to stick you head in the sand and pretend that example that I gave you is an isolated incident be my guest.

Oh, I see. Two or three instances "prove" what one instance cannot?

Sorry - no. You're still cherry-picking. You're still generalizing across a large population, using an extremely small number of data points.

Posted by: Stu | July 13, 2009 12:47 PM

Denial is not a name of a river in Egypt

No it is not stickybuns... try a mirror!

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | July 13, 2009 12:58 PM

holy shit, a logorrheic Sim*n

Posted by: Watchman | July 13, 2009 1:00 PM

Karol's posts are useful in one respect: They illuminate the deep irrational hatred which drives the homophobic agenda.

Which is not to say that I'd miss him if he vanished.

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 13, 2009 1:14 PM

I could be wrong, but I think that privately owned spaces that open to the public (like malls) can not discriminate on the grounds of religion, sex, ethnicity &etc. Whether sexual orientation is a protected class or not in Utah I can't say, but I'm guessing not. - DJ

I suspect you are right. The problem I am having is understanding why sexual orientation is not considered worthy of protection. Especially when if religion¹ is a protected class. Religion is a matter of choice. Sex, race or sexuality are not.

¹ That said I support legislation the prevents discrimination on religious grounds. Being a liberal I oppose all form of discrimination unless it can be shown there is a good reason why discrimination should be allowed.

Posted by: Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac | July 13, 2009 1:22 PM

I was fairly young (and uninterested) in the debate over the Mormon's Owning Main Street at the time, but I remember the people who were mad about it, let's sum up...

The state sold 1 Block of main street to the mormon church to turn into a "park" private area. The worry was that the privitization of the street would kill Main Street as a thoroughfair (as it did, since they got rid of the road section).

I remember as a kid driving to SLC and remember using Beck Street, coming down past the Capital Building to get onto Main Street to get into SLC and the downtown mall. Ever since the church bought up the street, we had to go the long way around, using many more surface streets to get downtown. (which probably led to the death of SLC's downtown, which coincidentally, the Mormons are busy renovating right now to become the central shopping hub of SLC again... surprise surprise.)

Anyway, back on topic, the church always said that the public would still be able to use the park to get through the city, but as we can see, only if they abide by church rules as they use the block. The couple was on their way home from a concert, going up near the capitol to get home, when they were bothered.

yes, they did get belligerant towards the security gaurds (who were themselves being rough), but according to the church's original stance of the park staying a major pathway for SLC's citizens, the couple SHOULD have been left alone.

Oh, and Karol needs to meet the Banhammer, Since this thread has been entirely Highjacked.

Posted by: Loki | July 13, 2009 1:31 PM

Karol said;

"Contrary to common misconception homosexuals are not uniform group of people."

I found this to be the only thing that Karol wrote that was true. However, he then goes on to use completely untrue sterotypes of the gay community. Apparently there is not just one stereotype of a gay man, there are two!!!111!!

As to the actual issue, having lived in Utah and raised Mormon, I wish I could say I was surprised by this, but I am not. I do remember having a friend get married in the Temple at Salt Lake, and since at the time, the front of the Temple was being cleaned and covered in scaffolding and plastic, we walked over to the Temple Square grounds so they could get some pictures with the temple in the background without the plastic. Even though we had just come out of the temple, we were asked to leave the grounds and not take pictures there. It was very odd and troubling for my friend and his wife as wedding pictures with the Temple in the background are traditional for Mormon couples. I mean, come on, my tithing pays for all this and I can't take pictures there of my friends who just got married in the Temple? sigh...

So glad I escaped...

Posted by: DingoJack | July 13, 2009 1:37 PM

Matt Penfold (#185) - Yes I agree entirely, since sexual orientation is not choice, is should be protected in the same way as race, but that's moot if the state laws of Utah aren't challenged.
Also an earlier commenter (sorry can't be bothered scrolling up for pages and pages over Karol's disjointed, obsessive sexual urges) said that if the area is an easement the public should have access to it under common law. That maybe another approach to thwart the Joy Nazis. - DJ

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 13, 2009 1:52 PM

DingoJack,

I know US common law is based on English common law, and that English common law precedents can be cited in US courts.

Under English Common Law there is a public right of way established over land if it can be shown that a right was assumed to exist for 25 years (I could be wrong on the time scale) and that at no time during that period was any notice given that it was not intended that a right of way existed.

In practice this has meant that if the public have been given access to land, and the landowner did not at least once a year post prominent notices that no public right of way existed then after 25 years such a right way was presumed to exist.

In English law authorities cannot remove an established right of way without a public enquiry. In practice what tends to happen is the right of way is moved, rather than abolished since authorities can grant landowners permission to make slight alterations in the path of public rights of way.

Posted by: DingoJack | July 13, 2009 2:00 PM

Matt Penfold - So, could it be argued that the LDS has no authority to determine the behaviour of this couple this is a public thoroughfare? - Curiously DJ

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 13, 2009 2:06 PM

Matt Penfold - So, could it be argued that the LDS has no authority to determine the behaviour of this couple this is a public thoroughfare?

I am no expert in Utah, or US law and the only experience of I have of English law regards rights of way comes from involvement in campaigns to prevent landowners blocking footpaths in my locality.

Suffice to say if those security guards had done what did in England (or Wales, the law is the same) they could well be facing criminal charges and the Mormon's would be facing all kinds of legal hassle. Not to mention the fact the BBC would make them out to be religious bigots.

Posted by: Shoggoth | July 13, 2009 2:26 PM

On the property/rights thing...

I suspect the distinction to be made here is between "private property" and private property which also serves as a business or public accommodation, such as a mall, park or restaurant. We have property rights in our homes that do not apply to a shop, ice cream stand, what have you.

(To take an obvious example: Businesses are subject to various regulatory and operational controls which do not apply to "pure" private property.)

A lot of these laws are applied case-by-case, with various other factors. You could make a pretty good civil rights case if mall guards hassled you for walking around with a GAY PRIDE NOW!, I AM AN ATHEIST or SMASH THE STATE t-shirt, whereas defending one with a Tom of Finland illustration would be harder (ahem).

As for PDA, all sorts of things come into play (double ahem.) Short of people literally screwing in front of the local VFW monument, cops are loathe to arrest and state attorneys to prosecute for such conduct because it's generally a waste of time.

Every now and then someone will try to test the issue, usually resulting in a town or county judge telling them to get a room and dismissing the charges - but NOT finding any fault with the cops.

Finally, sexual orientation is NOT a protected civil rights category in Utah and many other states, so "You're gay? You're fired!" is perfectly legal.

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 13, 2009 2:39 PM

And up here in Scotland we effectively have no law of trespass which is why we needed no equivalent of the Right to Roam legislation they enacted recently Doon Sooth.

Yeah, but you do have some responsibility for both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. Brown is Scots, and Blair was educated north of the border.

Us Doon Sooth are still waiting for that apology :)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward | July 13, 2009 3:14 PM

Shoggoth, I agree that is true for the rich. But depending on where you live and what the specific laws are there the issues and laws can be subtle and the resulting litigation long and costly. Changes are you'll be broke before the case is over. No, it has to be simple, public space has to be public property.

Posted by: ??? | July 13, 2009 3:51 PM

Two young faggots decided to provoke Mormons and got arrested for trespass.

Mormons get provoked by bundles of sticks? That's just weird.

Posted by: Mena | July 13, 2009 5:53 PM

I kill filed Karol long ago but I'm glad that he's gone. I found myself wondering if his last name was "Wojtyła" and if we were being invaded by zombies. Whew, that could have been a close one!

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 13, 2009 6:26 PM

Are we being reasonable?

Yes, if you could show that you ask anyone and everyone who has a slogan with swear words on clothing to leave.

As I said upthread, it would be acceptable to ask two gay men not to kiss in you shop, if you also applied the same standard to straight couples.

I am not saying that you cannot set standards you require the public to adhere to, but if you do so you must do so in a manner than applied equally to all your customers, and must not be a criteria that disproportionately affects a particular class. A ban on people with dreadlocks would not be acceptable as it would disproportionally affect black Afro-Caribbean people for example.

Posted by: Lynna | July 13, 2009 9:51 PM

If you go to Google Maps and search for Temple Square in Salt Lake City you will see a thin sliver of Main Street near the Conference Center (built in 2000, I think). That section Main Street has been used by the public (Mormon and non-Mormon alike) as a way to get from place to place for decades.

It was a mistake to say, okay now this is private property deeded to the LDS Church in exchange for some other land elsewhere. You cannot give a pubic right-of-way away, nor can you sell it, or trade it unless there are provisions in the agreement that preserve the public's access and free use of the right-of-way. When you put the Mormons in charge of a public pathway, you have restricted its use. Not cool.

Well, I guess you could change, sell, or trade public right-of-ways if you passed referendums upon which the public was allowed to vote. I'm not sure what happened here, but the end result is that the Church strong-armed the process. They twisted arms and city planning and zoning was changed.

Ironically, they gave part of Main Street to the LDS Church.

Posted by: Rey Fox | July 15, 2009 8:29 PM

"yes, they did get belligerant towards the security gaurds"

I guess that such nuances will always be discussed in cases like this, but it always rings BS to me. Reminds me too much of the comments below the linked article from the Deseret News. "How dare they partake in behaviors that heterosexuals take for granted!" I'D be beligerent if it were me. You never know how you might react if you feel like you're being served injustice, and moreover, you never know what will be construed as "beligerent" by the assholes with the nightsticks. Unless they got violent or flat-out refused to cooperate, it shouldn't even be an issue. That will never happen though, since it's just too much part and parcel of the general police power trip.

I'd love to participate in any kiss-in, but I don't really have the freedom to travel down there now, and I'd have to settle for the old "make out with yourself" routine.