Pharyngula

Posted by: TheBear | August 18, 2009 8:35 AM

They are not taking the easy way, that's sure.

I just hope they get treated better than I fear they will be.

Posted by: Daniel M | August 18, 2009 8:36 AM

Debating with Mormons is interesting. Not only do you need to be aware of all the normal creationist stuff, but added to that, you might have to pull in things from Meso-American archaeology and linguistics.

And Mormons even have their own Disco Institute.

Posted by: Michelle R | August 18, 2009 8:39 AM

Great news. I wish them courage. Don't be scared by the growling religiosities.

Posted by: Praetorianstalker | August 18, 2009 8:51 AM

have no fear, Atheists and Agnostcis in Utah!!! There are more of you than you think here, sticking it to the man!!! Unite I say!!!!!

Posted by: Hans | August 18, 2009 8:54 AM

USUSHAFT?

Posted by: Gindy51 | August 18, 2009 9:01 AM

"I've actually gotten through most of the Bible. The Book of Mormon? Moronic, idiotic, stylistically craptuous, un-vetted made-up-ed-ness."

When you consider the dude who wrote it was blasted off his rear on felt hat fumes, it sort of makes sense the book would be riddled with inaccuracies, misspellings, grammar errors, and weird logic.

Posted by: Matt | August 18, 2009 9:08 AM

> Athiests

Can nobody spell anymore?

(Double-checks spelling in this post in case of the spooky Internet law whereby any post about spelling errors must itself contain at least one spelling error.)

Posted by: llewelly | August 18, 2009 9:33 AM

At least Huntsman threw out the private-club requirements for bars.

He also re-legalized brewing your own beer!

Unfortunately he didn't legalize transporting it, so you have no choice but to drink it all yourself in your basement.

Posted by: TheBear | August 18, 2009 9:36 AM

@Matt:
Shouldn't it be "can't nobody..."?

Genuine question, not snark - me be no native english speaker.

Posted by: AJ Milne | August 18, 2009 9:39 AM

I've actually gotten through most of the Bible. The Book of Mormon? Moronic, idiotic, stylistically craptuous, un-vetted made-up-ed-ness.

Yeah... 'chloroform print' in indeed. I make sorta sporadic forays into the 'literature' (and that has to be in the scare quotes if we include the book of Mormon specifically) of various religions, for various reasons. And that one... man... it's truly, numbingly awful even beyond its near infinite stupidity. In fairness, possibly the main reason it's so much more painful than ancient books of really kinda similar content is that it really is one author (with, apparently, some subsequent edits to fix his too-obvious near illiteracy), which ups the tedium factor--the crazy quilt mosaic (pun intended) of some of the older stuff probably helps a bit, actually, to make 'em more readable--more like a collection of short stories than one long, bad novella that grew unintentionally into a bad novel and which a sane publisher would never have even considered putting on their lists...

Anyway. Good on 'em. Had an... let's say 'acquaintance'... griping at me a while ago that atheists can hardly 'play the victim card' in contemporary society. Told her in return we probably have absolutely no clue 'bout the scope of it, and sure, it's really not so bad here, but there sure as hell are places where it's got its costs...

(/Say, Saudi Arabia and Utah...)

Posted by: AJ Milne | August 18, 2009 9:57 AM

(Looks sideways at 'cholorform' from intended correction... squints... eyes open wide...)

Aaaagggh! It is! And I've caught it!

(/Runs aways screaming...)

Posted by: Laines | August 18, 2009 10:02 AM

Good for them! I know what it's like being a an atheist in a religious state - South Carolina is simply filled with religious crazies. I and a few of my peers are currently attempting to establish a Freethought club at our high school. We've been meeting outside of school, planning out our constitution; the problem I forsee would be getting a sponsor, since the only atheist/secularist faculty member at our school, the Latin teacher, retired this past year. I suppose we'll just have to look for liberals at this point!

Posted by: Lynna | August 18, 2009 10:03 AM

@#3

Case in point - Young men wearing "long boxers" and scoop-neck undershirts so that the Young women would think they were return missionaries... it upped the odds of scoring exponentially.

A male friend of mine told me that in his post-high school/college days he would put a strip of duct tape on his thigh at the spot where Mormon garments would end. Mormon girls put their hand on his leg to check for garmies, and reassured by the tell-tale line, they would be up for most forms of heavy petting.

I've had Mormon women give me some strange hugs. I think they may have been checking for garments, which is more polite than asking what ward you go to.

Posted by: Moggie | August 18, 2009 10:12 AM

SHAFT! Can you dig it?

Posted by: Lynna | August 18, 2009 10:20 AM

There are not as many Mormons as the LDS Church claims. Most converts are pressured with sales tactics to endure a few condensed lessons, then they are baptized. Once you're baptized, you're counted on the roles even if you never show up again.

The Salt Lake Tribune newspaper has noted repeatedly that the 12 million figure for members is probably more like 4 million. But the "rapid growth" myth has been repeated so frequently that a lot of people believe it. When the Daily Herald newspaper reported a few years ago (2002, I think) that the membership roles were not as advertised, Mormon subscribers cancelled their subscriptions. That'll teach 'em to tell the truth.

With converts being mostly "inactive" the Mormons are left with having as many brainwashed children as possible. But the Mormon birth rate is also falling.

Ask any Mormons you know if their sacrament meetings are full. I've never heard of a meeting that was half full, let alone full. There are lots of impressive buildings, but there are fewer people inside than one might think.

Mormons are more than 1000 stakes (a unit of organization) short of the predictions they made in 1980. Their last big period of growth was from 1977 to 1987, but now the growth rate is down to less than 10% in # of new stakes (as of the early 2000s), and down to less than 2% in membership numbers -- and membership numbers include "inactives." They don't remove inactives from the roles until the member is supposedly 110 years old.

Nevertheless, we still have our local broadcasts on TV and radio of all Mormon activities. One can cruise the local channels and find and old white guy advising married couples not to use lewd language during sex and it offends God.

Posted by: Lynna | August 18, 2009 10:36 AM

Debating with Mormons is interesting. Not only do you need to be aware of all the normal creationist stuff, but added to that, you might have to pull in things from Meso-American archaeology and linguistics. And Mormons even have their own Disco Institute.

As for Mormon apologetics, you've never seen the like. They can give creationists a run for their money, coming up with more bizarre and twisted, tangled lines of thought as they try to prove that the Book of Mormon is correct.

Example: For a couple of centuries, Mormon prophets placed the events described in the BoM in Upstate New York, and in various other parts of the United States. When this turned out to be a real problem, the mormons built their own Institute of MisInformation and started publishing reams of blather. The story now is that the events in the BoM took place in Central America, in a place not yet discovered (of course). In that still undiscovered place there were battles in which millions of people died. This advanced but brutal civilization also had steel weapons and other goodies, too many to list here, that do not fit in the historical context. After all the fussing and fighting (Joseph Smith loved a good bloody battle story) the golden plates were moved, by God Himself, to New York. But God forgot to tell Joseph Smith that particular detail.

Posted by: Lynna | August 18, 2009 10:47 AM

The Utah State University Secular Humanists, Athiests, and Free Thinkers will have a tough row to hoe. According the Mormon doctrine, if they do not belong to the LDS Church and follow its teachings, they automatically belong to the Church of the Devil.

Having people assume that you are influenced by Satan, or even that you *are* Satan, sounds funny until you experience it.

You can bet that any of their friends who still attend the church will be warned by their Bishops to stay away from the evil ones, and to reject the influence of Satan.

Posted by: charley | August 18, 2009 10:49 AM

@Matt Heath #23

double negatives are frowned upon in standard dialects of English and considered to count against each other (so "nobody can't" is a clumsy way of saying "somebody can"). It's "can nobody" or "can't anybody".

Triple negatives, however, (as in "Can't nobody spell no more?") will get you back to the intended meaning, and are perfectly acceptable on the other side of my wall where they are building the machines I am designing.

Posted by: JackC | August 18, 2009 10:55 AM

I really wish I had seen all this about a week ago - when I was in SLC. I would have liked to have stopped in to USUSHAFT and said hi. Looks like a fun group.

Oh well. Maybe next time. If there is one. The Youngest decided he didn't much like the state and has no real wish to revisit it.

For God's Own Territory (tm), it sure has a lot of biting bugs and spiders.

JC

Posted by: Lynna | August 18, 2009 11:09 AM

Logan is a great place to visit. The city is surrounded by awesome outdoor recreation opportunities.

Although they are practically next door to each other, sharing the Cache Valley on their borders, Wellsville Mountains and Mount Naomi Wildernesses make quite a contrast. Wellsville is dry, while Mount Naomi is blessed with streams and lakes. Wellsville has one trail along its crest, and Mount Naomi has 60 miles of varied trails. Wellsville seldom sees visitors until the fall raptor count begins, but visitors besiege Mount Naomi from June to October. Wellsville is an isolated island of wilderness completely surrounded by private land, and Mount Naomi is the jewel in a much larger setting of Forest Service and state recreational lands, including more than 30,000 additional acres of roadless terrain.

In the rock-climbing community, Logan Canyon is famous. Climbers come from all over the world to sample the cliffs, and a contingent of local climbers supports climbing clubs and classes.

Logan has also spawned a dedicated group of cyclists that, added to cycling visitors, supports hundreds of miles of mountain- and road-biking trails. Utah’s Wasatch Range is known for its “we-have-it-all” recreational opportunities, and the northernmost Wasatch peaks are no exception.

In and around Mount Naomi Wilderness, visitors can bike, hike, ski, and climb. Oh, yes, and nearby Bear Lake covers all the water sports.

In the Wellsville Mountains, an annual raptor count begins in August. Hawkwatch International posts two experienced birdwatchers on the crest, and there they stay for two months, with a team of packhorses bringing up water and supplies. The raptor count draws day hikers, as well, and the narrow spine of the Wellsvilles enjoys a brief busy season. In a typical year, 4,000 raptors take advantage of the updrafts along the western front as part of a migration route.

Posted by: groovamos | August 18, 2009 11:29 AM

"...southern campuses, where the stereotypes are the fiercest."

Now there's a real non-concept for you. I have 2 degrees from 2 such places, Vanderbilt and UT Austin. I cannot for the life of me recall hearing or reading anything like "here we are, where the stereotypes are the fiercest" or "in this place, where the ...." I frequent the Rice library and have seen no indication of the recognition of this non-concept anywhere in that institution. Seems like you freely thinking types are always generating these non-concepts though, like for example: "students in Texas, being allowed to freely (as in Freely Thinking) evaluate claims of the Darwinian TOE, will be seriously damaged intellectually." But this is not surprising since the TOE is full of non-concepts.

Posted by: raven | August 18, 2009 11:31 AM

Utah is projected by some to be less than 50% Mormon in a few decades. The percentage of Mormons has fallen from 76% to 65% in a few decades and is apparently going down. SLC is already around 50% and usually has a nonMormon mayor.

The LDS church disputes this and who knows what the truth is.

Been there many times. My experience is that if you are a foreigner and look it, the Mormons just ignore you, don't want to have anything to do with you. Which is OK, they look pretty alien to me also.

Posted by: Gryllus | August 18, 2009 11:39 AM

Here's an observation that I hope will not offend Americans: I am from the the UK originally, have lived in many places around the world including many years in Africa, and am now in the US. In all those places and in all those years I have met and engaged in conversation with many believers of all faiths, and ALMOST without exception they have been polite and charming (exasperating sometimes) when discussing evolution (I should point out I am an atheist and an evolutionary biologist). There have been some heated discussions of course, and I have faced classes where some members were vigorously supportive of creationism BUT it is only since I have been in the US where I have faced fury, anger, threats etc from creationists and believers. I have to admit, I find it scary and very threatening. Of course, not all Americans are like this and it should be otiose to point that out, but I have been very very scared and shocked by the savage reaction I have sometimes seen and heard to the statement that I study evolution as a career. I used to find Pharyngula, although fascinating, slightly agressive in its support of atheism and evolution. Now I find myself adhering to that tactic if only to provide myself with a strong defence ( I find most creationists rather cowardly at heart). If this seems a little sweeping, I apologise. It is nice to know you pharyngulists are out there though.

Posted by: PixelFish | August 18, 2009 11:53 AM

ForgotmyGinkgo @ 5: It's far scarier than Scientology as they now number in the many millions. Awwwww....you make my old church look like the Johnny-come-lately of crazy. They've been ahead of Scientology in the crazy department for years. (And they've been touting about 10 million members since the year I was born. Now they claim about 11 or 12 mil. Nevermind that a number of those are inactives who don't go at all.)

Raven @44: Not only does SLC usually have a non-Mormon mayor, they are quite often Democrats, which is quite a feat in "God votes Republican" land.

...

On a more personal note, my first introduction to secular humanism was through two teachers, who had once been Mormon, but had ERA posters up on their desks and Darwin fish on their cabinets. You can still find evidence of their activities and writing on the Humanists of Utah page. These women made a pretty strong impact just by teaching me to question and think critically. This was about 16 years ago, and at least one has since died, but I think their influence is still spreading out in small ripples. This was in Utah County--the most Mormony place in Utah, home of WhyBeYou (aka BYU)--and arguably not the place you'd expect atheism and humanism to flower. But of my personal acquaintances, my two best friends, and at least three or four others in my semi-close circle have all left the church. The attrition rate from previous generations is climbing, in no small part, due to the internet. When I got curious about the church, it was relatively easy to research, and to weed out the crap "your church sucks, so come to our church instead" stuff from the substantive geological, historical, linguistical evidences against the Book of Mormon. Furthermore, the internet had evidence of the church's racist past, something that gets whitewashed and hidden and slid under the rug a lot.

Posted by: Patrick | August 18, 2009 12:03 PM

After reading the first article on their biblical hate speech I scrolled down the main page and saw that Utah is apparently the biggest consumer of jello and has a high suicide rate which immediately made me think that if you don't let jello set it is just like drinking kool-aid.

Posted by: scarn | August 18, 2009 12:08 PM

(My parents tend to fall into a creationist category, but they think God used principles of science to create the world, and so they'd haul us off to all kinds of real museums to learn about science. I think that's how they deal with the cogdis of believing in evolution and believing in God. They tend to wrap around the opposite way of the Disco Institute, because they believe the word "day" was translated wrongly, and that a "day" actually translates to more like a 1000 years. Which is still too short a time for things to evolve, but at least I got dinos and museums and was encouraged to take science, instead of the 'rents viewing it as actively hostile.)

My parents were the same. This attitude poisoned the well - it ensured that I was way more interested in paleontology and geology stories than bible or book of mormon stories, which then led me to basically leave the church mentally in high school. I bounced without serving a mission partly because my dad liked to take me to the natural history museum so often.

Posted by: E.V. | August 18, 2009 12:21 PM

And Mrs. Tilton goes for the win!

Posted by: raven | August 18, 2009 12:30 PM

On a scenery note, I LOVE Utah.

Yeah, me too. SLC is a clean modern city and way larger than one would expect for the middle of nowhere.

We would drive through spectacular scenery and then a sign would announce, "Enterning the National Park" There wasn't much difference between the 5 national parks and the areas around them. They could have just declared the whole state a national park and left it at that.

Posted by: bcoppola | August 18, 2009 12:47 PM

I was telling my non-dogmatic brahmin Hindu vegetarian neighbors about the whole fundy "all people and animals were vegetarians before the Fall" bit. They got a big laugh out of that. "Hey, that means we never fell! We must be the real Chosen People".

BTW, if I had to believe in a deity, I think I'd go with Ganesha. Fat, jolly, "removes obstacles", elephant head - elephants are way cool.

Posted by: Alverant | August 18, 2009 1:10 PM

FYI conservative pundit, CIA agent exposer, and hit and run driver Robert Novak has died. I say he deserves the same kind of treatment other conservatives gave Molly Ivins when she passed away.

Posted by: squareone | August 18, 2009 1:17 PM

Jan @ # 35

I must concur on the delicious local beer.
Evolution Amber Ale is one of my favorites.

Posted by: MikeyM | August 18, 2009 1:24 PM

BTW, if I had to believe in a deity, I think I'd go with Ganesha. Fat, jolly, "removes obstacles", elephant head - elephants are way cool.

In 17th century Salem, would followers of Ganesha be hung like elephants?

Posted by: Jafafa Hots | August 18, 2009 1:29 PM

"That and the military presence does make things here to be tolerable."

Wow. Utah culture must really suck if a large military presence improves it.

Posted by: Red John | August 18, 2009 1:38 PM

I'm going to be appyling to the U soon. Looks like I might have to give USU a shot too. And squareone and Jan are right, they do have some good beer here.

I used to go to BYU and did the whole Mormon thing til I was around 23. Of all the places that it's hard to be an atheist, BYU has to be one of the hardest. But it wasn't as bad as it could have been, because a bunch of us heathens managed to find each other while there. I thought it was pretty funny that I went to BYU and ended up with a group of atheist friends.

Posted by: raven | August 18, 2009 1:56 PM

I was studying for something and had brought back a cup of coffee from Dunkin Donuts and got caught red handed.

One of my Mormon coworkers wouldn't touch coffee or cola drinks under any circumstances. I once saw a box of No Doz caffeine tablets on her desk. Don't ask me to explain that one.

Posted by: not a gator | August 18, 2009 2:03 PM

@ 20 AJ

the crazy quilt mosaic (pun intended) of some of the older stuff probably helps a bit, actually, to make 'em more readable

Completely agree.

In fact, I'd go a step further and say that's the same reason I enjoy mythologies of the world and didn't enjoy Tolkein's version of a creation myth. There was a certain lack of that clash of personalities that one sees in genuine myths, because real myths are not created by one single person. Example: trickster archetype. Missing from Tolkein's version, even though he's found on literally every continent. Oops.

Posted by: Lynna | August 18, 2009 2:08 PM

We would drive through spectacular scenery and then a sign would announce, "Enterning the National Park" There wasn't much difference between the 5 national parks and the areas around them. They could have just declared the whole state a national park and left it at that.

Well, Utah is kinda like that, if you count all the other public land. For example, in southern Utah you can go (from east to west) from Arches National Park, through several wilderness study areas (Behind the Rocks, Indian Creek), into Canyonlands National Park; next, cross Horseshoe Canyon, French Spring-Happy Canyon, Dirty Devil and Mt. Ellen Blue Hills Wilderness Study Areas to enter Capitol Reef National Park; and from there, directly into the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument (with most of the above list also fronting onto the Glen Canyon National Recreation Area and/or the Colorado River and more associated wilderness study areas. Now, we're about halfway across southern Utah. Continue to Box-Death Hollow Wilderness, Bryce Canyon National Park, Cedar Breaks National Monument, Ashdown Gorge Wilderness, Zion National Park (and associated wilderness study areas), Pine Valley Mountain Wilderness; and finally Cottonwood Canyon, Red Mountain and Cougar Canyon Wilderness Study Areas. Beaver Dam Wilderness, Canaan Mountain WSA (where the polygamists live), Moquith Mountain WSA and Paria Canyon-Vermillion Cliffs Wilderness are on the Utah/Arizona border.

And that's just southern Utah. (And I left out Natural Bridges National Monument, Dark Canyon Wilderness, Grand Gulch Instant Study Area, and a bunch more.)

The students in Logan have their very own wilderness in their backyard.

Posted by: not a gator | August 18, 2009 2:12 PM

The Salt Lake Tribune newspaper has noted repeatedly that the 12 million figure for members is probably more like 4 million.

I was shocked to see the US religion survey turned up 1.4% Mormon. (That means there are basically twice as many Jews as MoronsMormons--that surprised me.)

At approx. 300mil, that makes about 4.2mil Mormons, about what you suggest.

Argues for a certain accuracy, doesn't it?

Posted by: eddyline | August 18, 2009 2:14 PM

#55: What exactly is it with monotheistic religions and deserts anyway?

...It's the heat. Makes 'em cwazy.

Posted by: not a gator | August 18, 2009 2:17 PM

For God's Own Territory (tm), it sure has a lot of biting bugs and spiders.

We left Illinois for THIS?

LOL.

What Mormons won't tell you: the real reason they got run out of Nauvoo. (Hint: it wasn't polygamy.)

Posted by: Pixelfish | August 18, 2009 2:24 PM

Not a Gator @ 80: ...the real reason they got run out of Nauvoo. (Hint: it wasn't polygamy.)

From what I understood, even as a kid, it was that darn bloc voting habit of theirs, where they voted the way the Profit told 'em.* (One of the unspoken reasons I only heard later was that the Danites destroyed a printing press under Joe's orders. Frankly, my Mormon ancestors weren't as friendly and docile as they would have had you believe.)

*This bloc voting is how they killed the ERA amendment in a number of western states and pushed Prop 8 through. It's terribly annoying, and everybody always acts disingenously shocked, when you suggest that they're taking orders from SLC, but I can also tell you that my ward growing up had only two Democrats. (And both of those later left the church.)

Posted by: not a gator | August 18, 2009 2:36 PM

@42

Now there's a real non-concept for you. I have 2 degrees from 2 such places, Vanderbilt and UT Austin. I cannot for the life of me recall hearing or reading anything like "here we are, where the stereotypes are the fiercest"

You're funny, but I think you're missing the point. I've been North and I've been South. In the North, you'll frequently find the region outside the campus to be more liberal than the region inside. (Gack--BU, the Randroids at Hahvahd, and BC post-purge are great examples.) Whereas in the South, the campus and immediate ring around it are little liberal islands surrounded by ravening Deliverance-style Babble country. And don't get me started on the creepy racists.

And IMO, while UF is very liberal compared to even Alachua County, never mind neighboring Levy County (Rosewood massacre--really), Bradford County (The Starke Jesus Water Tower), etc., it's nowhere near as liberal as middle-class campuses up north. Or, say, Madison, WI.

Chicago, IL is about 500x more liberal, in terms of tolerance (Oh boy) and in terms of left-wing identity politics/socialist leanings/PC/whatever* than college town Gainesville, FL. I'm sorry, no comparison, and if you think otherwise, that's a serious log to dislodge from your eye, brother.

*-most support the former while many disavow the latter, but in my experience they seem to go together, for good or for ill.

PPPPPS: In case you don't believe me that Southern racism is real (yes, it's all a Northern racist conspiracy), there was an incident in "liberal Gainesville" last year where four cops, three from the city, one from the university (state cop, not rentacop, in this case) got super drunk and decided it would be a good idea to ride around drunk in a pickup truck and throw eggs at prostitutes and druggies in Porter's, an extremely poor, overwhelmingly Black neighborhood.

After being caught by the beat cop driving drunk, and having paperwork filed on them internally (although no charges were filed despite the DUI!), they went out for a repeat performance (!!!) on two separate occasions.

Did they get fired? Oh, no! They were removed from narcotics duty and trotted around to apologize. That's it.

For all the "Cambridge cops are racist" talk this summer (and they are--don't snow me, I'm from Eastern Mass.), I can't imagine this kind of thing getting swept under the rug there. The "jungle monkey" cop in Boston is in the process of getting fired right now, and he didn't lob missiles from the back of the truck at anybody.

Shoot, I think I hear banjos...

Posted by: not a gator | August 18, 2009 2:40 PM

@46

There have been some heated discussions of course, and I have faced classes where some members were vigorously supportive of creationism BUT it is only since I have been in the US where I have faced fury, anger, threats etc from creationists and believers. I have to admit, I find it scary and very threatening.

We're Number One!

Posted by: not a gator | August 18, 2009 2:50 PM

@82

I'm sure that had something to do with it, but I was more referring to ole' Joe Smith crossing the Freemasons.

I feel like I should offer a link, but it's hard to find a good one on the internet now, because both the Mormons and the Masons seem to find this episode embarrassing. (There's some dispute, but it's generally accepted that Smith was held in jail under protective custody, but a mob managed to kill him anyway, allegedly for revealing the Mason secret handshake or something.)

Posted by: not a gator | August 18, 2009 2:56 PM

but my general impression has been that people in other countries are much more civil toward each other

Unless they're French uni students looking for a little glory and a good excuse to skip finals.

Okay, to be fair, French people are WAAAAYYYYYY more polite than Americans.

Posted by: not a gator | August 18, 2009 3:08 PM

So, in other words, the good Profit overreached.

Posted by: Lynna | August 18, 2009 3:20 PM

Raven @ 70: Maybe you should tell your coworker this story. If the current prophet drank pepsi by the crate, maybe the Word of Wisdom can be bent a little?

I started at BYU in the fall of 1972 and in the first couple of months one of the girls I dated was Ann Monson. Absolutely stunningly gorgeous and way out of my league. I asked her out and she said yes and I took her to the Homecoming Ball in the Fall of 1972. Showed up at her dorm to pick her up and I'm pretty sure it was both Thomas and Frances that were there to greet me. They'd both come down to help Ann get ready for the big shindig.
I walked in and there was Ann looking like a stunning replica of Ann Margaret circa 1965. I will never forget what a vision she was standing there in her spaghetti-strap dress that was for all the world a most blatant violation of BYU dress code. But who was going to argue with her daddy about it, huh?....
I took Ann to the dance and watched as people's heads swiveled around ala Linda Blair all night long trying to see who this gorgeous bitch was in the immoral ball gown. It was kind of like being with Cinderella only I don't think Ann was wearing a tiara that night. And I kind of don't think that squirrels and birds dressed her either. Could be though - strange stuff goes on at BYU.
Ann was and probably still is, a gorgeous woman. Why she invested any time with me I'll never understand, but it's widely known that us gay boys in hiding can be quite appealing to the ladies. Suck it up straight boys and get over it. You may have my spoils if you wish.
Homecoming was followed by General Conference or vice-versa. Ann showed me around temple square and the underground tunnels and then we sat in those big cushy chairs in the tabernacle behind the big kahunas during a couple of sessions of conference and ate with the mormon giants in a special dining room somewhere there on Piazza Tempio. I was having lots of fun and Ann was was at least pretending to be into me and stuff. Can you imagine if I had just not chosen to be gay I might be mormon royalty right now???.....
On another visit to Salt Lake Ann took me to her home in one of the privileged hillside neighborhoods. On the way out the back door to show me the gardens we passed a long stack of Pepsi crates full of empty Pepsi bottles. Ann pointed at them as we were going out the door and with a laugh said, "Dad's nasty little habit."
Now you gotta put this in context of the early 70s when most mormons were still laboring under the weight of the urban legend that said the Coke and Pepsi were 'against the word of wisdom.' (If mormons stopped drinking Coke today the company would go out of business.) I thought about Ann's words: 'Dad's nasty little habit' and decided right then and there that it was OK for me to masturbate more and be a little gayer than I'd ever been before. If Tom Monson could have his nasty little habits then surely it was OK for me to have mine.
I mean no disrespect towards Ann in telling this story. I'm justifiably angry at her daddy for declaring war on me and my community, but Ann isn't her dad and who knows, she might actually disagree with what he did as well. All I can tell you is that back then she was beautiful, she was extremely intelligent and aware and that dating her was a lot of fun. All these years I have secretly gloated about the fact that I'm probably one of the few guys ever, if not the only one, in BYU's history that's taken a girl to Homecoming who was wearing a revealing spaghetti-strap dress. Somehow there's just some really wonderful irony in that. Gay boys rule!!

The text quoted above appears at http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon557.htm (you have scroll down quite a bit to see it -- there are lots of other comments about cola drinks)

Posted by: Joe Shelby | August 18, 2009 4:08 PM

Why go out to enjoy the geological scenery if I can't find a decent bar to drink a beer at after I'm done?

Posted by: Xenithrys | August 18, 2009 4:27 PM

The first 5 books of the old testament are the known as the Mosaic books (said to be written by Moses) whereas the author of the book of Mormon was said to be the angel Moroni. That makes it a Moronic book.

For Mormon history, and recent history of fundamentalist Mormons, I recommend John Krakauer's Under the banner of heaven. I especially like the bit where Joseph Smith starts screwing around and his wife Anna gets pissed at him. Straight away he proclaims he's had a new message from god instructing him to become a polygamist, and god specifically said Anna Smith has to put up with it or be damned to eternity in hell. Way to go Joe.

Posted by: Lynna | August 18, 2009 4:37 PM

Amber

I've considered having myself excommunicated, but the number of hoops they make you jump through are unreal.

In case you need it, here's a handy guide to leaving the LDS Church:
http://www.mormonnomore.com/

Posted by: Lynna | August 18, 2009 4:53 PM

@98

Straight away he proclaims he's had a new message from god instructing him to become a polygamist, and god specifically said Anna Smith has to put up with it or be damned to eternity in hell. Way to go Joe.

And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things (plural wives), then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.

And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore, he is justified.

Emma was faithful to Joseph. But Joe took twenty one or twenty two additional wives.Joe was guilty of adultery. But, according to his "revelation" which was "given" to Emma, but intended for all women, if Emma didn't comply with her husband's desires, she would be the sinner.

Posted by: James | August 18, 2009 6:18 PM

I'm a bit late to the party, but I just want to thank you for the link, PZ. And thank all you commenter peoples for your support.

I've had a lot of fun being involved in running USU SHAFT and the conversations and debates we've been sparking. To any other students out there: find your student group, or start it if it doesn't exist. It's more than worth it.

Posted by: Jordan Licht | August 18, 2009 6:32 PM

Huh, this was weird. I have a friend previously in Utah who used to belong to USUSHAFT and we've talked about it before. Seeing it on Pharyngula is kind of... disconcerting or something. Seeing it, a relatively small group, mentioned on a major blog? Weird.

@98 Xenithrys:
"The first 5 books of the old testament are the known as the Mosaic books (said to be written by Moses) whereas the author of the book of Mormon was said to be the angel Moroni. That makes it a Moronic book."

Technically, the mormons claim that Mormon wrote/compiled most of the Book of Mormon. Moroni just wrote the last little bit.

What's up with Joseph Smith and names that are one letter off from "moron"? It's fitting, but why?

Posted by: Pixelfish | August 18, 2009 8:10 PM

Jordan Licht@106: What's up with Joseph Smith and names that are one letter off from "moron"? It's fitting, but why?

Actually some folks have speculated about Joe cribbing some of the names from the Comoros Islands off the coast of Madagascar. The capital of Comoros is Moroni. (The name of the guy who supposedly buried the plates in the hill Cumorah.) There's not a lot of evidence to back up these speculations, but it's not out of the realm of possibility, as the islands were known in Smith's time.

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon330.htm
http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bom1830/changes.shtml - point 6

Posted by: Lynna | August 18, 2009 8:52 PM

And speaking of the Joseph Smith polygamy 'revelation,' you know how they teach it in Mormon church now? They say that neither of the Smiths wanted to go along with it, but they had to, because it was God's word. Yeah. Right.

And then there is fact that Joe married a bunch of girls and women *before* the official "God is speaking through me to bitch slap Emma" moment. Bit awkward, that.

Joe's timing was always a little off.

Posted by: Cherie | August 19, 2009 12:25 AM

I'm a proud member of USU SHAFT. It's a great group and we've got some very thoughtful, intelligent members. It was such a huge relief to find a student group that had similar views towards god and religion. It is very isolating to be an atheist in such a religious state and the group is a fun way to socialize and discuss everything from new scientific research to thoughts on various religions. I'd definitely recommend the group to anyone living in the area - it's open to all!

Posted by: Kevin Corey | August 19, 2009 2:14 AM

As a recent graduate of USU, and a founding member and former officer of SHAFT, I have to admit I was both surprised and proud to see us get a shout out on Pharyngula. Keep it going strong guys.