…and this is a 
This is the t-shirt worn by the marching band of Smith-Cotton high school of Sedalia, Missouri.
The 'ascent of man' image is a bit irritating — it is a portrayal of a fallacious idea of directionality in evolution — but the designers had a reasonable goal in mind.
Assistant Band Director Brian Kloppenburg said the shirts were designed by him, Band Director Jordan Summers and Main Street Logo. Kloppenburg said the shirts were intended to portray how brass instruments have evolved in music from the 1960s to modern day. Summers said they chose the evolution of man because it was "recognizable." The playlist of songs the band is slated to perform revolve around the theme "Brass Evolutions."
All right, I'll let 'em pass…but wait! There's a problem? Parents freaked out over the shirts? Could it be because they're even fussier about scientific accuracy than I am?
No, I don't think so. You can guess what people complained about.
Band parent Sherry Melby, who is a teacher in the district, stands behind Pollitt's decision. Melby said she associated the image on the T-shirt with Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.
"I was disappointed with the image on the shirt." Melby said. "I don't think evolution should be associated with our school."
"I don't think evolution should be associated with our school." That says it all right there — they don't want science to be a part of their children's education. Well, either that or it's a statement about the Ms Melby's current state: perhaps her knuckles drag on the floor, and she's teaching courses in flint-knapping and gnawing hides.
It's a shame, but there will always be a few ignorant cretins yowling about demanding respect for their religious ignorance in every school district. Responsible, intelligent school administrators will put the students' needs at the highest priority, and recognize that they don't need to kow-tow to every crank opinion. They should support science, and know that they do want evolution associated with their school.
Ooops. The assistant superintendent of the schools has yanked the t-shirts and demanded that all of the students turn them in…for a really stupid reason.
"I made the decision to have the band members turn the shirts in after several concerned parents brought the shirts to my attention," Pollitt said.
Pollitt said the district is required by law to remain neutral where religion is concerned.
"If the shirts had said 'Brass Resurrections' and had a picture of Jesus on the cross, we would have done the same thing," he said.
Evolution is not a religion, no more than sky-is-blueism or gravityism or medicine or mathematics or their shop class. Would they shut down an auto repair class if an Amish family decried their heathen English ways? Pollitt is a pandering moron.
Their school really does need more education in evolutionary biology. They've got some quotes from students that reveal they really don't know much.
High School junior Adam Tilley said he understood why the shirts were repossessed.
"I can see where the parents are coming from," he said. "Evolution has always been controversial." The 17-year-old trombone player said his parents "didn't care" about the shirt because it was the "name of the band's show."
Nope. Evolution is not controversial as a science. It is socially controversial, but only because a) people are ignorant of the science (and people like Pollitt contribute to that problem), and b) there are lots of people who profit from perpetuating lies (like, say, Ken Ham).
Here's the worst:
Senior Drum Major Mike Howard said he was disappointed when he had to return the shirt.
"I liked the shirt because it was unique," Howard said. "The theory of evolution never even crossed my mind."
Huh? Adam Tilley says it's controversial! Students don't even think of the theory of evolution when they see a t-shirt with the word "evolution" and a picture of evolving apes? There's a problem.
Comments
Posted by: Michael Dickens | August 30, 2009 12:23 PM
It's amazing how idiotic these people are. The level of ignorance and bigotry is obscene. How dare you compare an evolution shirt to a Jesus shirt!
On the bright side, that's the funniest thing I've read in days.
Posted by: Carlie | August 30, 2009 12:32 PM
I think it's a fabulous shirt. I also think that the band members and other sympathetic students who liked the shirts should set up a cafepress version without the school name (since the school does indeed get to declare what does and doesn't get their label) and then wear it to school at least once a week.
Posted by: ERV
|
August 30, 2009 12:32 PM
Contact info
Bradley Pollitt: pollittb@sedalia.k12.mo.us
Sherry Melby: melbys@sedalia.k12.mo.us
Posted by: Ivence | August 30, 2009 12:35 PM
That is...horrifying. I keep forgetting how little I knew about evolutionary theory before I got to college and then quotes like this show up.
Posted by: Brownian, OM
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August 30, 2009 12:37 PM
I resent that, PZ: I took a course in flint-knapping. Understanding stone tools and the making thereof is an essential component of any understanding of anthropology, which in itself is an essential part of not being a moron. It's one the reasons I'm such a well-rounded individual, surrounded by my collection of obsidian microblades.
Fuck Sherry Melby. Any chance you guys could institute a rule that one has to pass an exam testing one's knowledge of evolution before one can raise a ruckus about it being taught? I guarantee she knows less about evolution than she does Christian theology.
Posted by: The Science Pundit
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August 30, 2009 12:38 PM
I know it's been said before, but I love the use of Comic Sans. It helps me brace for the onslaught synapse searing stupidity.
As I said over on Orac's, those shirts also had shapes and words. She should be worried that geometry and English could be associated with her school.
Posted by: Radwaste | August 30, 2009 12:41 PM
Well, there's more than a little stupid to go around.
At least three of the instruments are woodwinds, not "brass", although the metal is used in their construction.
Posted by: beed | August 30, 2009 12:42 PM
"I was disappointed with the image on the shirt." Melby said. "I don't think evolution should be associated with our school."
Does she think gravity "should be associated with our school"
Daft
Posted by: KI | August 30, 2009 12:55 PM
I agree with Brownian, these dimwits would be unable to master the intricate skills necessary for flintknapping. I am amazed at the craftsmanship and care that went into every piece I have ever found. Off-set knife blades, small hand fleshers that fit exactly into your palm, the fine double knapped edge of a spearpoint, the delicate balance of an arrowhead-these attest to a finely developed skill which I doubt any of us could attain without thousands of hours of practice.
Posted by: Gecko
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August 30, 2009 12:56 PM
Speaking as a high school brass player from the mid west I'm really, REALLY ashamed right now.
But hey, who knows? Maybe they'll take my t shirt away because it has a rainbow on it and our school shouldn't be associated with gayness.
Posted by: ObSciGuy | August 30, 2009 12:57 PM
If someone got permission and then sold these T-shirts so that the profits clearly went to raise money for science education at that school, I'd gladly buy 2 of them. ;)
Posted by: RamblinDude
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August 30, 2009 1:03 PM
It's especially ironic as that picture of primates resembles almost exactly the marching band I was in!
Posted by: Mike Haubrich, FCD
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August 30, 2009 1:13 PM
And I don't guess they think education should be associated with their school, either.
Posted by: Michael Dickens | August 30, 2009 1:15 PM
And I don't guess they think education should be associated with their school, either.
Definitely.
Posted by: raven | August 30, 2009 1:18 PM
According to the fundies, the stone age never happened. You have acquired a skill that never even existed. When they try to squeeze 4.6 billion years of earth history into 6,000 years (the abridged version), some things just get left out.
Posted by: llewelly | August 30, 2009 1:21 PM
Brownian, "OM", has just admitted he has "surrounded" himself with the the same TOOLS EVOLUTIONISTS BELIEVE were used to BUTCHER MAMMOTHS!!!
What, oh Lord, is this GODLESS MONSTER planning to do with these fearsome weapons?
Posted by: Richard Eis | August 30, 2009 1:26 PM
-And I don't guess they think education should be associated with their school, either.-
It clearly isn't if that woman is a teacher there.
Posted by: StB | August 30, 2009 1:33 PM
I am sickened at this. "I was disappointed with the image on the shirt." Melby said. "I don't think evolution should be associated with our school." Regardless of the accuracy of a funky logo on a band t shirt, the thought that a grown woman, of assumed mental competence, would say such a thing boggles my mind. You, Ms. Melby, an educator within a legitimate school system are saying you don’t want science, yes SCIENCE associated with your school. She didn’t say, “I do not want to promote inaccurate science.” That this woman is a teacher pains me. I come from a family of teachers, my father was a great one. My tax dollars are not to support religious doctrines and they certainly are not to hide science fact to ease the minds of those enamored of “religious fiction”.
They would have had to pry that shirt from my bloody dead hands.
@ERV, I feel some letter writing in my future, thank you for the info.
Posted by: MartyM | August 30, 2009 1:45 PM
Oh man! I used to substitute teach at that school. And other schools in the Sedalia school district as well. But I did it only for a half year right after I got out of college. In mid Missouri, there's not much you can do with a bachelor's of science in mathematics except teach, and I didn't go through the education department to teach full time. That was seemingly eons ago. Roughly 15 years ago. I left Sedalia (my parents live in a nearby town) to go to the Univ. of Missouri College of Engineering. That was one of the best moves I ever made. I guess the school district has not progressed since then.
Posted by: Jeff Eyges
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August 30, 2009 1:49 PM
I applaud and encourage your letter writing efforts, but it's Missouri, people - and small-town Missouri at that:
(http://www.cityofsedalia.com/content/190/68/default.aspx)
Key Facts about Sedalia -
Founded: 1860
Land Size: 18.7 square miles
Population: 20,339
Median Age: 35.8 years
Median Household Income: $28,641
Median Housing Value: $59,600
Something tells me they aren't going to give a rat's ass.
Posted by: Carlie | August 30, 2009 1:57 PM
Thanks for insulting the whole
citystate, Jeff!Don't forget it was people in the town itself who came up with the idea in the first place, and that many of the students supported it.
Posted by: Jan | August 30, 2009 1:58 PM
Is it really true there are a lot of americans believing in this intelligent design crap? We have discussed it here in germany. All people laughed out loud - and I just couldn't believe it. This sounds so, uhhm, stupid? This teacher is a shame and should be fired directly. Hahahaha. Intelligent design - hahahahaha. I am not intelligent - really. Stupid Disneyland Christianity.
Posted by: Lance | August 30, 2009 2:06 PM
As a Missourian (KC) this saddens me. I went a bit further than Jeff and looked at the school's stats. It's a bunch of poor white country kids. What do/should we expect? Then again, shouldn't they know a bit about science so they can plant their crops properly? I guess that gets left to someone else.
Posted by: amk | August 30, 2009 2:10 PM
According to the Bible locusts have four legs. Would it then compromise religious neutrality to have a picture of a six legged locust on a shirt?
Posted by: MadScientist | August 30, 2009 2:10 PM
I feel sorry for the guy who made the design for the shirt - I really like it, even if I scream at the creationist dodos who point to such images and claim it's proof of linear and directed descent.
Cool - Brownian's done flint-knapping - if I need a flint tip for a traditional spear I know who to see. Although the idea of a flint broadhead on a carbon fiber arrow shaft is alluring, steel broadheads are challenging enough so I think I'll resist the temptation to fuse the ancient with the modern.
Posted by: DemetriusOfPharos | August 30, 2009 2:17 PM
Am I the only one that thinks someone should get this design up on CafePress or something similar and push the Streisand-effect on the issue?
Posted by: Brownian, OM
|
August 30, 2009 2:25 PM
Woah, let's back up the wagon. I said I took a course in flintknapping; I never said I learned to knap. Bifacial leaf blades completely eluded me, while for some reason microbades were easy (the latter being a relatively recent technology, 30 kya as opposed to 1.6 mya). What's never easy is picking the obsidian shards out of one's hand after. Nonetheless, I stand by my conviction that a grounding in anthropology is about as central to understanding pretty well any interaction between humans (in groups, at least) as evolution is to understanding biology, to piggyback on the famous Dobzhanskyism. (My anthropology degree was also key in triggering my inevitable apostasy.)
Anyone interested in what the thousands of hours of practice KI alluded to would do well to read up on the work of Don E Crabtree, a self-taught flintknapper from Idaho who pioneered experimental archaeology and replication analysis.
Anyways, where's Greg Laden to weigh in on this?
Hey, if you outlaw stone tools, only outlaws will have stone tools.
Posted by: williamk | August 30, 2009 2:27 PM
A link back to the original article would be polite.
http://www.kansascity.com/115/story/1412978.html
(I'm not associated with them, just think its bad etiquette to quote half the article and not even give a link back to the source.)
Posted by: Crewvy
|
August 30, 2009 2:33 PM
Sherry Melby,
obviously Sherry was deprived of oxygenism as a child.
Posted by: Kristen Potter | August 30, 2009 2:44 PM
No wonder I had a bad feeling about Sedalia. I'm not incredibly surprised there are idiots like these in my state, just as long as they stay there and don't influence other cities with their ignorant mindsets. We never did something like that back in my High School and there were more like-minded atheists than the jesus freaks.
Yet still, this shit makes me mourn my state.
Posted by: arrakis
|
August 30, 2009 2:47 PM
I live in the St. Louis area, and the evolution issue doesn't come up too much in town. But once you leave the metro areas of either KC or StL you leave the only bastions of rationality in the state. I have many friends from rural areas of Missouri, and although they all accept evolution (one is a chemistry major/bio minor), they are chock full of stories of the "local yokels." One saw a sign in his hometown during the past election that said "A vote for Obama will put a n----- in the White House."
In Warrenton, MO, there is a Christian ministry that gets its kicks converting children. Harper's Magazine recently reported on them. The leader of the group (I forget the name of either) said that the reason they minister to children is, in effect, that the minds of children are extremely pliable.
Missourians are famously stubborn, hence the nickname of the "Show-Me State". Too bad that even when many of them are "shown" what they ask to see, they simply say that it isn't enough to convince them. *sigh* At least we have delicious and extremely unhealthy local food that I can gorge myself on to console myself.
Posted by: The Arbourist | August 30, 2009 2:50 PM
The situation in Missouri is deplorable. The sad thing is that the potential for situations like this to happen in Canada is increasing.
We’ve already drawn PZ’s attention once (see his post on 'what are you doing Alberta' with our bill that will allow parents to opt their children out of ‘controversial subject matter', evolution being one of the topics mentioned. I have an update on what my glorious Alberta government is doing here:
http://wp.me/pyhFw-7o
Posted by: crs | August 30, 2009 3:20 PM
Missouri cities can be as bad as MO's small towns. I am taking a psych course at a local college in St. Louis. The professor was going over the history of psychology and stressing various approaches through the years. He was highlighting the approach of John Watson (Behaviorism). Contrasting it with Freud's approach, he stressed that Watson focused on acts and behavior, not mental processes, and asked "What is your mind, show it too me." Most of the class sat contemplating the challenge, but two young ladies chimed up "it's the soul." They missed the point entirely but displayed their indoctrination perfectly.
The professor drove home his point that Watson did not include that which cannot be observed directly, so we cannot speak of mind as an entity, one of the two responded (with a derisive tone) "then you are talking about evolution?"
What? Our behavior may not be a product of the soul and bound up on our evolution? Heresy.
On a related note, in a simple composition class it came up that I did not believe in gawd, and another young lady asked, "What do you believe in? Science?"
Posted by: mel | August 30, 2009 3:23 PM
http://www.sedaliademocrat.com/news/0px-18740-span-font.html for the local discussion
Posted by: Tim H | August 30, 2009 3:47 PM
What are twits like Melby going to do when they finally come face-to-face with the phylogenic diversity of woodwinds?
Posted by: «bønez_brigade»
|
August 30, 2009 3:49 PM
Melikes "ascent-of-man"-esque shirts, and I've a small collection of them.
Posted by: Tim H | August 30, 2009 3:51 PM
And as for Adam Tilley, if it wasn't for evolution he wouldn't be a trombone player- he'd still be playing the sackbutt.
Posted by: MattB | August 30, 2009 4:00 PM
Should maths be associated with your school? How about the teaching of photosynthesis? History? Literature?
Why draw the line at evolution? What's that you say? OOHH.
It goes against your religious beliefs. I see. Uh-huh.
Absolute retard.
Posted by: OwenK | August 30, 2009 4:13 PM
Compromise, amk. If they have five legs, everyone will be happy!
Posted by: SubMoron | August 30, 2009 4:14 PM
I believe in: valveless horns and trumpets, oboi d'amore and da caccia, serpents and cornetti, ophicleides and the whole delightful pre-moden family of wind instruments!
Posted by: SoreLoser | August 30, 2009 4:17 PM
I guess the color scheme is dictated by the school colors but, frankly, I think the t-shirts suck.
With that in mind, I don't see why anyone in the town would object.
I grew up in a small city in Texas (Corpus Christi) and spent several happy hours in jr. high ripping to shreads the religious arguments of my fellow students. Jolly good fun! The teacher broke it off when I mentioned the possibility the Jesus was executed because he was insane. I have always thought/hoped that some of my scepticism might have rubbed off on a few of the students.
Posted by: MarkM | August 30, 2009 4:20 PM
How very Orwellian, the reclaiming of the T-shirts. I would just say I "lost" mine, then when I went to college I'd wear it proudly and have a great story behind it.
Posted by: Scott Rowed | August 30, 2009 4:31 PM
The website now has a poll:
Yes, the evolution image was inappropriate
(now at 62%)
No, critics and the district are overreacting
(now at 38%)
Only 181 votes cast to now.
http://www.sedaliademocrat.com/news/0px-18740-span-font.html
Posted by: Taiki | August 30, 2009 4:33 PM
We should petition to have power cut from the school. No evolution no ohms law either. They have nothing to do with each other but ohms and other electrical theory is "just a theory" like evolution
Posted by: Erasmus | August 30, 2009 4:41 PM
I have news for Sherry Melby: evolutions IS associated with her school whether she likes it or not, although in her case perhaps not as advanced as it should be.
Posted by: MrrKAT | August 30, 2009 4:50 PM
It's question of symbols, flags or "flags". There's symbols of evolution.
If some makes cross and some other adds humoristic "legs" and.. oops swastika. Or some makes modern extra artistic arc to cross.. oops sickle and hammer. It's not loughing matter any more to find those on teachers chest. He could always claim poor history knowledge but would it help any more..?
Well i'm here trying to figure out to myself why this dispute looks so stupid here in Europe..
Posted by: gene | August 30, 2009 4:53 PM
I'd take a course in flint-knapping. It would be a useful skill to teach my grandchildren if industrial civilization fell.
Posted by: Anders from Sweden | August 30, 2009 4:54 PM
You sure have an education problem in US. I am lucky to live in a more secular country, where this is not a topic at all. I can spend my time teaching science and math without defending it to fundies.
With such teachers in the school, a monkey would have done a better work, I supose. See thats a way to solve the education crisis! Fun that we see the t-shirt the same way, but still so different: Hey, thats not accurate! They think it's to much science, we to less.
About flint-work. I have genuine flint axes from the old stone age 12ky ago to the young stone age 6ky ago. They must have been put in the ground by god to weaken my faith. Well he did a good job, I lost it compleetly! Indeed he is mighty.
Posted by: Jerry Coyne | August 30, 2009 4:56 PM
POLL ON THE SHIRTS
I've learned from erv that the Sedalia Democrat is taking a poll on whether the tee shirt was appropriate.
Go to
http://www.sedaliademocrat.com/news/0px-18740-span-font.html
and cast your vote in the lower right-hand corner.
As Patton said, "You'll know what to do."
Posted by: Richard Harris | August 30, 2009 4:59 PM
Gee, Anders, & I thought that Thor wielded a hammer!
Posted by: Hypatia's Daughter | August 30, 2009 5:03 PM
#22 Jan
Summed up in 3 words. WIN!Posted by: Slaughter | August 30, 2009 5:10 PM
217 votes in so far, 53% saying yes, it was in appropriate, 47% giving the right answer, that they were bonkers.
Posted by: nanahuatzin | August 30, 2009 5:17 PM
Slightly... out of topic, but i think it would make you glad to know, there something against the nonsense of the Creation Museum...
The goverment of Mexico city organized one of the biggest paleonthological (sorry... not shure how to write it..) exibits in the world.
"Footprints of time"
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/ciudad/97085.html
4524 square metters. 120 specimens, divided in 13 rooms, one dedicated to celebrate Darwins aniversary.
All the fossils have been recolected from Mexico, specifically, from the state of Sonora.
( http://www.museodeldesierto.org/ )
The exhibit, even has a lab with "real" paleontologist, working on fossils recently uncovered... (room 3)
In four months , it has received 12,440,000 visitors. Last monday received 297,000 visitos alone!!!
It is on the main square of Mexico City, in front of the "Catedral of Mexico", one of the oldest cahtolics churches in America built in 1571.
http://u.univision.com/contentroot/uol/art/images/noticias/mexico/2009/06/pe_huellas_vida_1.jpg
I just had visited, with my family... my only complain... is that there is too many people, but the fossils are beatifull, and very impresive...
I hope you were there... ;)
Posted by: Heidi | August 30, 2009 5:18 PM
Who paid for the shirts? I'm a band parent (in Massachusetts), and we have to pay for our kids' band shirts. Did they charge these people for the shirts and then take them back? Did they get a refund? The print shop certainly wouldn't accept returns on a custom order, so somebody's money went to waste.
Also, if the high school teachers here believe anything like the BS that woman believes, they had best not say it in front of me.
Posted by: Douglas Watts | August 30, 2009 5:19 PM
Well, at least it doesn't have a map of Pangaea on it, because a recent poll shows that a majority of white southerners do not believe that North American and Africa were once joined as a single continent.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/08/07/white-people-have-trouble-accepting-pangaea/
Posted by: gene | August 30, 2009 5:21 PM
Tim H wrote: And as for Adam Tilley, if it wasn't for evolution he wouldn't be a trombone player- he'd still be playing the sackbutt.
How can you pick out a trombone player's kid on a playground? Doesn't know how to use a slide and can't swing!
Posted by: Douglas Watts | August 30, 2009 5:25 PM
So let me guess, in 6,000 B.C., Yahweh created all of the modern band instruments from scratch, each one different, and Noah had to load two of each of them onto the Ark without them getting all rusty -- and keep the Brontos from stepping on the bell of the Sousaphone?
And let me guess, Moses brought the reeds.
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | August 30, 2009 5:34 PM
I don't think literacy should be associated with our school.
I don't think numerancy should be associated with our school.
I don't think citizenship should be associated with our school.
I don't think learning should be associated with our school.
Ok. I'm tired of that shit. Paraphrasing Melby's thoughtless, insightless, comprehensionless and selfawarenessless (sorry) statement is an exercise in self diminution. I don't want to vanish. Perhaps Melby will.
Nah.
Posted by: JeffreyD | August 30, 2009 5:37 PM
I am pleased and fascinated that some schools now actually have courses on flint knapping. Fifty years ago I had to teach myself and learned most of the techniques by experimentation. I also earned some scars on thigh and hand as keepsakes. I actually got into playing with stones because I had heard from a teacher (a bad one) that stone tools would have taken days and even weeks to produce. I soon found out that I could chip out a decent arrowhead, scraper or stone axe head in about thirty minutes to an hour. Hmmm, have not touched them in years, but I know I must still have some flint around here somewhere...
Anyway, like I said, glad courses are being taught in the subject. The stone age tool set is actually very sophisticated and an obsidian blade is initially sharper than surgical steel blades.
Ciao and grunt y'all
Posted by: Tony Jolley | August 30, 2009 5:43 PM
I was just flipping through the channels, and saw that DirecTV had classified a documentary on BBC America called "Charles Darwin and the Tree of Life" as "Religion". The stupidity seems to be spreading.
Posted by: kamaka | August 30, 2009 5:49 PM
@ Sherry Melby
"I was disappointed with the image on the shirt." Melby said. "I don't think evolution should be associated with our school."
Now, I'm pretty damn sure you're going to read this blog post and my comment, Sherry Melby. Now that your quote is smeared all over the internet and subject to the ridicule it so richly deserves, how are you feeling about things? You're a teacher, yes? This quote makes you out to be a damned poor excuse of a teacher. You get that, right?
You have no business drawing a paycheck from a taxpayer-supported school district. Shame on you. Keep your stupid to yourself.
If I lived in your school district, I wouldn't let you teach my dog how to piss on a hydrant.
Former Teacher,
Kamaka
Posted by: Douglas Watts | August 30, 2009 5:49 PM
I have a nice 3 inch spear point of Kineo rhyolite from the Sebasticook River in central Maine that is of the Moorehead tradition (c. 3,700-4,500 BP). It had been sitting in the bed of river for 4,000 years until I found it this spring. I use it to cut open hot dog packages. It is very sharp.
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | August 30, 2009 5:54 PM
I think it was back in the early eighties that a respected surgeon/knapper used obsidian blades in some surgeries. As I recall, they performed as well as or better than steel blades.
This link from a Google search: http://www.fluther.com/disc/13416/whats-the-deal-with-obsidian-scalpels/
When I think about it, humans had a much longer period of time to practice, understand and perfect the manufacture of stone tools than the interval enjoyed by their counterparts using metals, ceramics and composite materials.
Posted by: AJ Milne | August 30, 2009 5:58 PM
Well, if she is agin' that, she's going about preventing it the right way, at least...
Posted by: Troy | August 30, 2009 6:15 PM
This is truly mind boggling.
Such level of basic ignorance in education institutions.
You Americans really have a lot of work to do..
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | August 30, 2009 6:19 PM
AJ Milne observed, "Well, if she is agin' that, she's going about preventing it the right way, at least..."
Yup. The surest way to insure that someone will accept oppressive rule is to deprive them of an education that actually represents the current state of knowledge.
Fortunately, most of the conscientious teachers I was fortunate enough to be taught by are dead. Such dereliction of duty would be too much for some of them; they would go into Outrageous Mode and drawn accusations of witchcraft from the faithful were they still alive.
*rest easy and with my gratitude, my teachers. we'll take it from here*
Posted by: cmflyer
|
August 30, 2009 6:27 PM
OMFG.
Posted by: Felix | August 30, 2009 6:31 PM
By those standards what is a religious theme and what is not, children should not receive education on health issues from infections to mental illness. They might contradict Biblical wisdom about demonic possessions and the use of the blood of small animals.
Posted by: Jeff Eyges
|
August 30, 2009 6:48 PM
To the Europeans who are incredulous that our fundamentalists have as much influence here as they do:
You're absolutely correct. This is a nation of abject imbeciles, and you are right to laugh at us. Come back and take us over again - please. We obviously can't govern ourselves.
(That was not sarcasm.)
Posted by: nick bobick | August 30, 2009 6:49 PM
Stop bashing Sherry Melby! Her actual words were misquoted by the reporter, as is often done. What she said:
"I don't think
evolution should be associated with our school."Posted by: Caine | August 30, 2009 6:55 PM
Tony Jolley @ 60:
I noticed that too. Dimwits in action.
Posted by: skepsci | August 30, 2009 6:57 PM
What's wrong with the ascent of man image? One can understand that evolution is a tree branching in all directions, and still focus on a particular branch because it has particular significance to us. Yes, you can read the wrong story into the picture, but the picture itself does not tell the wrong story.
Posted by: Stretch | August 30, 2009 7:16 PM
Part of our evolutionary heritage fortunately includes retaining a fairly sturdy cranium, capable of withstanding the large quantities of facepalm that some people cause.
"I don't think evolution should be associated with our school".
*facepalm*
I'm going to give up this whole career of meticulous application of technology, and start a goddam chuch.
First Church of God, Damnit.
Posted by: chrisD | August 30, 2009 7:19 PM
I'm thinking of moving to MS just so I can pull my kids out of that hellhole and declare that "I do not want my children associated with bronze-age crackpottery."
Thinking of starting a list, feel free to contribute:
No globe logos, there are those who believe in a flat earth.
No modern solar system logos, there are those who believe in geocentricism.
No Pi on t-shirts, literalists of the Holy Babble might cos a ruckus.
Not everyone agrees with racial equality, so no hand-holding logos a la United Way.
Debate team? No more! Jesus says turn the other cheek.
Chess club? Board games are of the debbil!
Posted by: Charles | August 30, 2009 7:53 PM
Classic x-tian retardism. "I dont want evolution associated with our school" Tis a long uphill battle folks.
Hailing all flint lovers! I have been collecting artifacts for years. Nothing like finding stone age arifacts that out date the YEC's 6000 yr thing. Just last week I found half a Clovis, heartbreaker...classic example of "rolling over" or busting in half when striking the flute.
...and the guy using the artifact to open hot dog packages...what the? Have you no decency man?! (I did once use a broken archaic/beveled (ie. Lost Lake) piece to cut a broken alternator belt out of the pulleys so I could get home, but hot dogs...really?)
Posted by: Ted Powell | August 30, 2009 8:02 PM
Sedalia, Cradle of Ragtime
There's also some interesting general history of Sedalia (named after one of the founder's daughters, nicknamed "Sed").According to this article, written in 1945, this is where ragtime evolved.
Posted by: MOPrncipal | August 30, 2009 8:24 PM
As a former biology teacher and now principal in Missouri, this story makes me cringe....but I deal daily with these kinds of people. Holier than Thou folks, who think their religion is what everyone should follow...and that EVOLUTION is the work of the devil. Evolution is SCIENCE. I taught my students evolution, and I expect my teachers to do the same. I just hope we do not go down the same road as Texas, or I may have to leave the state......UGH.
Posted by: marc buhler | August 30, 2009 9:24 PM
Thanks to Abby (erv) upthread for the email addresses...
------------------ "as sent" --------------
“A letter to two staff at the Smith-Cotton High School in Sedalia, Missouri”
Hello,
I doubt my comment about your removal of an “Evolution” motif from the school band’s shirts will matter to you much, or that it will even see the light of day, but if you have the time to read this please hear me out.
First, I will say that whilst I am living in Australia I was raised in the states and am still proud to be an American citizen. I am also a biomedical researcher working in Immunogenetics with my M.Sc. in Biology from Stanford and my doctorate in Medicine from the University of Sydney. I have presented work at various international meetings including speaking at the previous World Congress of Genetics and have a scattering of publications in the medical literature. Furthermore, I was trained as a secondary science teacher and may well be returning to the classroom in the next year or so.
Evolution is not a belief or a religion, it is a fact and an underlying feature for all aspects of the biological sciences.
If you had an enormous jigsaw puzzle of a polar bear in a snowstorm (every piece bar one being white) and had many tens of thousands of pieces spread out in front of you, how would you ever solve it? One way of course is to separate all the pieces with an "edge" from the rest and then begin working on them. Evolution is the "edge" you need to have defined in understanding Biology.
Without Evolution, you have no sense of relatedness between biological systems and genomes.
To appreciate how an understanding of Evolution arose in human history, consider the breadth of diversity in plants and animals that drove Carl Linnaeus three hundred years ago to develop a rational system for grouping organisms in taxonomy based on related features across several levels of scale (Kingdom, Class, Order etc). Had taxonomy been developed on arbitrary features such as "colour" unrelated to things like being a plant or animal, so all "red" organisms are grouped together, or by who named them (as was not uncommon before the formal taxonomy we now have), it may have been harder for Darwin to grasp the understanding that features found in populations which vary may do so because selection has acted within the populations. Darwin’s idea about Evolution is built on a rock solid basis of relatedness between populations as seen in the taxonomy. If you are saying Darwin is wrong, you might as well say Carl Linneaus is wrong too and just group all plants and animals any which way that suits you.
There is of course debate about evolution and lots of it. There is a lot we are yet to uncover, and hopefully a theory paper I am at work on will add another small piece to the collection of “edge pieces” set aside to solve the puzzle of life on Earth (my work being on constraints in vertebrate genomics due to immunogenetics), but throwing out the concept of evolution from schools in your state is mindbogglingly stupid, from my perspective. The thing about “the debate about evolution” is to consider just where that debate is taking place.
If you are in a car with others and are travelling from ‘A’ to ‘B’, you might argue at some point which direction to head. Let’s say you are in San Jose, California and want to arrive at an address in San Jose so the debate about which direction to go could have reasonable argument made for heading in any direction. The research community is trying to sort out many aspects towards understanding evolution and we are standing around our car in San Jose, maps in hand, compass at the ready, looking for clues such as a street name or house number. We are not in New York or New Jersey arguing what direction to head in. When the journey began back on the east coast there may have been some slight debate on direction (“going one mile east will get you on I-80 faster”), but for the vast distance we have travelled it has been clear that we needed to head west. The debate about which direction to go does not take place on the east coast, but rather on the west.
In a similar sense, in trying to have policy based on some feeling that there is “debate” about evolution, you need to consider what the nature of the debate is are where it is taking place. High schools and high school texts dropping evolution because of failure to understand the very nature of any “debate” is as wise as stopping to ask for directions to a San Jose address while in Jersey City.
Perhaps it is time now here, if you have read to this point, to consider the whole “But Evolution Is Just A Theory” question. Those who fail to consider the appropriate definition of “theory” here are likely to view Evolution as highly improbable, perhaps demanding to be shown how the “first cell” could form since two “half cells” are unlikely to happen by chance to join together. I think it most unlikely myself that two waves on the lifeless ancient ocean each had to have the appropriate “half-cell” and then the winds be blowing just right for those two half cells to collide at the right angle and speed to “start life on earth”. That is the sort of model many doubters of evolution seem to come up with, based on the “like a tornado hitting a junk yard and building a mustang / harley / model-T / volkswagon etc”. Some would even have the tornado find the right key and put it in the ignition!
Please, my learned friends, look up “Theory” in a few different dictionaries and note that “a conjectural view or idea” is not the intended usage in “The Theory of Evolution”, but rather the definition that says something on the lines of “explains a wide variety of connected phenomena in general terms” or something similar. Start considering what science has established as fact and what it means by “theory” with regard to evolution.
As for the transition from energized pre-organic ocean to earliest form of replication-based life, try to take a larger and longer perspective: the very oceans themselves becoming rich in building blocks that accumulate chemical bond energy until catalytic forces release some of that energy, then over time it builds up again, over and over, with lipid-like membranes eventually packaging smaller portions of this pre-biotic solution into what eventually are “proto-cells” in the RNA-world. Does that not make much more sense (in ‘deep time’) than “two half cells” with genes and everything in place having to be clicked together? Throwing out comments like “I don’t believe lightning could strike the ooze and cause life” does not show any understanding of what we do know to be fact.
Removal of the concept of Evolution from secondary science education would be like removing “subtraction” from math classes. Your school had a reasonable shirt chosen for your band members, with a mischaracterization of primate evolution albeit one that nicely included brass instruments. The idea behind the shirt was that the nature of the instruments has evolved, and the selection of primates (while misleading in a biological lineage) was appropriate for the play on words intended. It is disgraceful that this shirt has been withdrawn on the basis it has been. The comment by one of your teachers, which has prompted my letter to you, that “evolution should not be associated with our school” brings me near to tears. Evolution is the bedrock on which any decent understanding of biology should be built. Evolution has nothing at all to do with religion apart from being a target of misguided crusades by fundamentalists determined to replace science with theology, to replace the inquiry based approach of learning with “everything you need to know is in the Bible”. Please do not teach your students so poor a lesson.
(signed) marc
Marc Buhler, Ph.D.
Immunology Department
Westmead Hospital
New South Wales, Australia
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | August 30, 2009 9:38 PM
I agree with skepsci | August 30, 2009 6:57 PM: Yes, the iconic image is undoubtably interpreted fallaciously by almost everybody, but the image itself portrays a sequence of organisms that really existed in an unbroken chain of ancestors and descendants. Artists’ depictions of members of the populations at the (unknowable and, according to hard-core cladists, hypothetical) nodes of the cladogram that includes Homo sapiens at one of its current tips. Dawkins worked backwards down the same lineage (and kept going, and going!) in The Ancestors’ Tale. It’s just important to emphasize that every extant species is the tip of another such lineage, and that all the current lineages coalesce with each other and innumerable extinct lineages on up the timestream.
Right on, KI. I have also enjoyed the other stories of stone-tool making and finding in this thread. I have admired them in museums, but personally found only one. While looking for garter snakes around a pretty remote National Forest pond in northeastern California, a beautiful 1” obsidian arrowhead gleamed at me from the bottom of a muddy cowprint. It was a very cool feeling to picture the circumstances of its being there.
hee hee
Yes, but obsidian! That must be done! I would pay money for such an arrow, and I don't arch (?). Especially after the scalpel references. That stuff is the coolest natural material I know.
She will certainly not want the manzello or stritch in her school! And those double-reeds!
Among the many victims of the post-Classical and Sousan mass extinctions.
ouch. That one’s egregious.
Your plan might work there, too. It’s more humid, though.
Cool; thanks, Ted!
…and hang in there, MOPrincipal.
Posted by: fyca
|
August 30, 2009 10:29 PM
Not quite the same topic, but definitely the same stupidity: In 1992, my Texas high school marching band did a Civil War show. The drum line had special shirts made, showing the dates of our competitions and framing that, two flags - a union flag and a confederate flag. No sooner had they arrived than the whole community was up in arms. The shirts were all taken back and later replaced with a new design - an American flag and... a Texas flag. Because everyone knows the Civil War was really a botched attempt at secession from the current United States of America.
Posted by: BBS | August 30, 2009 10:36 PM
The shirts cost the band $700, which they'll apparently have to make up. It's pretty ridiculous to leave arts programs more strapped for cash than they already are, so I propose the following:
Everybody send emails to the school, offering to pay $20 or so for one of those shirts. Funding for the arts, cool evolution shirts, what's not to love?
Then again, maybe say that you'd like to donate $10 to the band, $10 to the biology department... hopefully that way we can have students who know not to buy into the idea that there's anything controversial about evolution.
Posted by: Wobert | August 30, 2009 11:01 PM
Perhaps the t shirt should have had a picture of brass instruments progressing from the smallest to the largest. And the theme changed from Brass Evolutions to Brass Erections,each with a condom on the appropriate end.
Not into the flint tools, but I'd be really interested in a dinosaur riding school.
Sorry forgot !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Darren Garrison | August 31, 2009 12:20 AM
Some googling shows that Sherry Melby is a "Teacher ECSE." A little more googling shows that "ECSE" is "Early Childhood Special Education." So, she gets the kids that are slow learners or mentally disabled. What's that line about birds and feathers and flocking?
Posted by: Darren Garrison | August 31, 2009 12:22 AM
Oh, forgot the link:
http://www.sedalia200.com/staff.html
She has an e-mail address listed.
I'm just sayin'...
Posted by: Mr T | August 31, 2009 12:31 AM
As a Missourian, I am not at all surprised. The stupid is everywhere in this beautiful state. Beautiful, but sometimes I get the sense I'm living in a scene from Deliverance. I could step outside my door right now and find plenty of stupid, if anybody's buying...
Posted by: Mr T | August 31, 2009 12:36 AM
Wow, that's harsh. That would explain some things about my ex-girlfriend, but no I just can't take the bait: that's not cool, Darren.
Posted by: Nick Gardner | August 31, 2009 1:18 AM
I would purchase a t-shirt which pictured a six-legged locust in dorsal view.
Posted by: Jafafa Hots | August 31, 2009 3:15 AM
I've wanted to take a flintknapping course for a long time.
None here.
Moving back to the Bay Area soon it seems, maybe I can find one there.
Posted by: Svetogorsk | August 31, 2009 3:56 AM
Do you have even the faintest idea how jaw-droppingly offensive that comment is to the parent of a child with special educational needs?
My autistic son owes his current progress (far, far better than I'd dared hope even a year ago) to the intelligence of his teachers - not least the one who decided that it was worth pushing him harder than his statement of special educational needs claimed he was capable of attaining. It may well be the case that this exceptionally bright and dedicated woman has made the difference between someone requiring full-time support for the rest of his life, and someone who might have a fighting chance of being independent.
And I can guarantee that she's never said anything even a tenth as moronic as what you posted.
Posted by: XD | August 31, 2009 4:20 AM
I'd buy it! Also, it'd be great if any profit went to a citizens for science group. Does Missouri have one? Is anyone in contact with the copyright owner?Posted by: Tom | August 31, 2009 5:52 AM
This is dangerous. There's a world of difference between making an assertion that was directly formed from a religious tenet, and making an assertion that was formulated from entirely scientific, non-religious tenets that coincidentally contradicts some religions' teachings, and it is vitally important that secular institutions and authorities do not mistake the latter for the former.
If they do, it's the old "right to never be offended" problem and, even pursued in the name of secularism, would actually work against secularism. This is because, were a state in which one particular religion dominated to take the stance that it must never take any stance, even derived on completely nonreligious grounds, that would offend any religion, all the dominant religion needs to do to bypass church-state separation entirely and exert effectively total control over that state is simply to declare itself to be offended by the opposite of whatever it wanted to be enacted.
Posted by: Jim A. | August 31, 2009 8:23 AM
But shouldn't the t-shirt show the evolution of the instrument as well, from a rams horn, to a salpinx, to the cornicines, to the trumpet and finally to the keyed coronet?
Posted by: Rahul | August 31, 2009 8:29 AM
Is it wrong to feel a deep and abiding hatred for such people ? I get angrier than I think is good for me when exposed to religion's malevolent stupidity. How do you all deal with it?
Posted by: druidbros | August 31, 2009 8:38 AM
Somehow this does not surprise me as my practice wife was from Sedalia and went to this 'high school'. She remains ignorant to this day. Hasnt cracked a book since school 30 years ago.
Posted by: articuett | August 31, 2009 9:44 AM
I hope these enterprising kids sell their "naughty shirts" on e-bay and/or wear them to school and in public when they aren't representing the band.
They can turn Sedalia's "lemons" into "lemonade".
Posted by: Jeff Eyges
|
August 31, 2009 9:49 AM
@Ted Powell: this is where ragtime evolved
Apparently, that statement alone would be enough to get you fired.
Posted by: Sara | August 31, 2009 10:20 AM
This is so surreal. Isn't, like, I dunno, a school basically *the* place to associate with evolution?
I will live in the land of denial, firmly believing this is The Onion article. Plz don't criticise my faaaaaath!
Posted by: Bosfarcal
|
August 31, 2009 10:24 AM
What do you expect from a state whose leadership includes the following:
State Representative Ed Emery (R-Pluto) who claims that abortion is the cause of illegal immigration.
State Representative Cynthia Davis - (R-Outer Limits) who actually claimed that you shouldn't give food to hungry children because being hungry will motivate them to go out and get jobs.
So yeah, around here it makes perfect since. Public schools must not do anything that could be viewed even remotely as challenging religious authority because to do so would violate the establishment clause.
Up is down, black is white, science is religion,
Welcome to Idiot, Missouri.
Posted by: bbgunn | August 31, 2009 10:52 AM
As of 9:53AM, Sedalia Democrat newspaper online poll results: Yes (administrators reacted correctly in prohibiting T-shirts) 3%. No (administrators over-reacted by prohibiting T-shirts) 97%.
Posted by: TalkingSnakeBite
|
August 31, 2009 12:30 PM
Histrionics aside, I think this case is potentially very dangerous, and might say something about the shifting Zeitgeist.
In general, a principal will work hard to maintain at least the appearance of neutrality on matters such as this - even a fundie principal.
What scares me is that the EVO deniers have successfully elevated their ravings to the level of "serious theological and scientific debate". It's dangerous ground for a public school, because of the religious aspect, so they cast a wide net in avoiding controversy.
This is The Wedge document in action as far as I am concerned. Some scientific fact doesn't mesh with your religious views? Poison the water so that the discussion is off limits.
Posted by: justanotherjones | August 31, 2009 12:47 PM
I think someone announced in the paper's comment section that he is having some made and for sale, however, unless he is the designer I don't see where he said he got permission.
Someone ought to let him know about copyright.
Posted by: raven | August 31, 2009 12:57 PM
It could just as easily be the other way around.
Ten years ago, no one is Sedalia would have thought of evolution.
Fifty years ago someone mentioned it and was tarred and feathered and rode out of town on a rail.
The rumor that 75 years ago the science teacher was burned at the stake are false. The Klan merely shot him and dumped his body in a ditch
They are making progress. I bet they even teach the controversial theory of Copernicus that the earth orbits the sun..
From what I've gathered, between 1/3 and 1/2 of all schools in Missouri, Arkansas, Texas, Oklahoma and probably other states in the Moron Rectangle never, ever teach evolution even if it is in the state standards.
Posted by: a man who came from a biological slurry | August 31, 2009 1:06 PM
If I were a science teacher I would teach creationism as the making of the world from Greek Mythology. Or, maybe we should seriously consider teaching Norse myth as serious science. Atheism may not be an answer either, look what it did for Russia under Stalin. Ideas are for everyone.
Posted by: Mark A. Siefert | August 31, 2009 1:23 PM
Re: #83
Errrr... Darren. I was an LD/ED student from 3rd grade to my Junior year in high school. I have BA in Journalism and I just went back to school to seek a career in computer programming.
Posted by: wsinda | August 31, 2009 1:36 PM
"Pollitt said the district is required by law to remain neutral where religion is concerned."
Right... so everything resembling a cross will be banned. No more multiplication during math lessons, kids.
As an aside, no one seems to have noticed that the hominids weren't wearing any clothes.
Posted by: Jeff Eyges
|
August 31, 2009 1:48 PM
It's worse than that. I've read (it might have been here) that even teachers in blue states, in communities in which no one has complained, are afraid to teach evolution just in case.
Posted by: meh1963 | August 31, 2009 2:05 PM
@88 Jafafa Hots:
Moving back to the Bay Area soon it seems, maybe I can find one there.
Black chert perfect for knapping may be found on the beach just south of Ano Nuevo preserve on the San Mateo coast. I've done it both by flaking and by heating - the stuff works great, and provides some truly sharp edges.
I get too angry about stupid teachers like that. We had a godbotting teacher in a local elementary school, and a number of parents went after her hammer and tongs....and she tried to pull an 'academic freedom' defense. Cost the district a lot of money and I don't think she was fired, just reassigned to a school in a district where kids don't have English as a first language. Very annoying.
Posted by: Jafafa Hots | August 31, 2009 3:20 PM
I googled for flintknapping classes, didn't find any, but did find something sortof related and emailed the person who happens to be at UC Berkeley and asked if they knew of any.
They responded saying that while they can't promise anything, they would ask classmates and it's possible that if I could scrounge up 6 to 10 willing participants they might be able to set up some evening or weekend flintknapping classes.
So, who's in? :)
Posted by: TlalocW | August 31, 2009 4:13 PM
I was in marching band, and I can attest that the drummers were less-evolved than the rest of us... especially compared to us trumpet players, who were the pinnacle of both the band and evolution.
But this got me thinking... With the combination of music and evolution, why haven't some of the musically inclined scientists gotten together for a lark and formed the Charlie Darwin band, doing informative parodies of Charlie Daniels Band songs? I for one would like to hear (or even write) a scientifically informative song to the tune of the Devil Went Down to Georgia... primarily to piss off Charlie Daniels.
Posted by: Mark A. Siefert | August 31, 2009 4:33 PM
Besides the fact that principal revealed that he has no backbone to stand up against the fundies, what disturbs me is that even the mere mention of the word "evolution," no matter how innocuous, drives the fundies into a conniption.
And to think, just a little over a decade ago, these losers were whining about "political correctness," university speech codes, and how the academic left was trying to silence conservatives. It'd be ironic if it wasn't so scary.
Posted by: hee haw | August 31, 2009 4:38 PM
I want to see the common descent tree that includes trombone, clarinet, and bass drum.
The australopithecine jumping on a euphonium, however, is right on the mark. The only appropriate thing to do with a euphonium, all things considered.
Posted by: The Thomas Society | August 31, 2009 5:29 PM
Personally, I'm offended by the "Trumpet" crotch on the middle figures. :)
Posted by: Evolution Denier | August 31, 2009 7:24 PM
Quite frankly, I would never have allowed my kid to return the shirt. I would have burned it. Why does everything have to be about monkeys these days. I know some neanderthals and un-evolved people work in Washington, but why force normal people to live and act like monkeys and worship the idea of a perverted old slave owner like Darwin? The t-shirts should have never existed in the first place.
Posted by: Fil | August 31, 2009 7:25 PM
Their new t-shirts should have a conga line of dumb assholes on them, all playing a bum note.
Morons.
Posted by: Steve_C | August 31, 2009 7:36 PM
Wow. Two dumbasses in a row, with no understanding of history or evolution. I'm shocked. Shocked I say!
Posted by: Sastra | August 31, 2009 7:37 PM
Evolution Denier #113 wrote:
When you use the phrase "live and act like monkeys and worship ... Darwin," are you suggesting that monkeys are capable of worship?
Wouldn't that suggest a continuum between species?
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip | August 31, 2009 7:59 PM
To distract you from what the rabbits are doing. Mwahahaha!
Posted by: Evolution Denier | August 31, 2009 8:11 PM
"Wouldn't that suggest a continuum between species?"
No.
Humans and monkeys have absolutely nothing in common.
Humans have a sould from God, monkeys do not.
Humans have the capability to build cities, learn language, culture, art, etc., monkeys do not.
Humans can form governments , although some monkeys run ours. Otherwise, monkeys cannot do so. They cannot have intellugent thought process to the pount where they can make political decisions, moral decisions, etc. However, I have never heard of a monkey being a socialist or a communist or a ditator. They have the advantage there I suppose.
Humans can be prophets of God, monkeys cannot.
We are not and have never been related to an apelike creature. Get over it. As much as you lay claim kin to monkeys, I refuse to accept anything less than being created by a God who spoke the universe into existance and allowed you and I to be born and exist. Now, can darwin do that? That's what I thought!
Later , monkey worshippers.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
August 31, 2009 8:21 PM
Wrong. Souls, like god don't exist. You should know that by now, as you have never provided any hard physical evidence to back up this insane assertion.Monkeys have their own form, with alpha males, alpha females, and the like that would be expected from simple government. Quit lying to yourself. Then you can quit lying to us.No, since your imaginary deity doesn't exist, especially since you have never provided any physical evidence for that assertion.You acknowledge top us you are a deluded fool, who's word is worthless for anything.Come back with hard physical evidence or don't come back. We don't like liars and bullshitters.Posted by: Sastra | August 31, 2009 8:27 PM
Evolution Denier #118 wrote:
If that were true, then your case would be stronger. But of course, you're exaggerating, aren't you? There are a lot of similarities, from DNA on out. You're just saying that the similarities aren't as significant as the differences.
It's a scientific question, whether evolution occurred or not. If you were to study the matter seriously, and come to the conclusion that it did happen, what would you do?
Would you simply change how you interpret Christianity, and decide that, if that is the way it happened, then God must have done it that way -- and become a theistic evolutionist?
Or would you be forced to become an atheist, because no God worthy of your worship would, could, or should work that way?
Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | August 31, 2009 8:29 PM
#118
That is sure dumb. You've clearly never studied any primate interaction otherwise you know that they do have a government system. Hell so do ants and dolphins.
As evident from your comments on refusing to have been created by anything less, it appears that you have some unfounded vanity problem.
And I'm not a worshiper of Hanuman, as per your last entry.
Posted by: Evolution Denier | August 31, 2009 8:32 PM
Hard physical evidence for God? Okay here it is:
1) The universe exists
2) you are living on a hard peice of evidence
3) Look in the mirror. You exist. Sort of .
Nevermind # 3
Is there is "hard physical evidence" that God does not exist, that He did not create the universe and all that is in it by speaking it into existence in six days?
Show me some hard evidence - NO STUPID "PEER REVIEWED: CRAP ALLOWED either! Peer reviewed usually ends up meaning "I agree with you totally becuase I share the same politically motivated belief system". That's the basis of so called peer reviewed.
Now how bout that non peer reviewed evidence?
Grand Canyon? Nope, it happened in a few short (maybe hundreds) years during or as a result of the worldwide flood.
Nevermind. I know you will not penetrate my mind and I will not penetrate yous. No use argiung. I guess you'll have to wait for Judgement Day to see it for yourself.
Posted by: Mr T | August 31, 2009 8:34 PM
Wait a second, I thought humans and monkeys are exactly alike in every way ... why can't you evolutionists get it straight?
It's like this:
Scrolls covered in religious garbage came before science textbooks.
Science textbooks are bound and printed in big factories, but scrolls covered in religious garbage with scribbled by hand by ignorant goat-herders.
Therefore, science textbooks are magical.
Q.E.D.
Posted by: Sastra | August 31, 2009 8:36 PM
Evolution Denier #122 wrote:
What would that look like, from your point of view? I mean, if atheism was really true, what would you expect to see, which would cause you to realized it?
Posted by: Mr T | August 31, 2009 8:37 PM
I meant "were scribbled by hand".
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | August 31, 2009 8:40 PM
...and I will not penetrate yous.
Looks like Evolution Denier is a bottom.
Posted by: Evolution Denier | August 31, 2009 8:41 PM
It's a scientific question, whether evolution occurred or not. If you were to study the matter seriously, and come to the conclusion that it did happen, what would you do?
Would you simply change how you interpret Christianity, and decide that, if that is the way it happened, then God must have done it that way -- and become a theistic evolutionist?
Or would you be forced to become an atheist, because no God worthy of your worship would, could, or should work that way?
-------------------------
There is no such thing as a theistic evolutionary.
No I would not become an atheist.
In order for evolution to occur there had to be a reason for it to occur right? Since everything in the beginning was absolutely perfect, there would be no reason for evolution or "survival of the fittest" at all.
In the beginning all living creatures yes including T-Rex was plant eaters and one day they will be again i the coming kingdom.
SIN is what messed everything up. DEATH did not occur until AFTER sin occurred. Not one single living organism died before sin entered the world.
Evoution is one of those sins. The whole idea mocks the entire gospel message. The whole reason that Jesus came here was to correct what happened in the Garden and to give man a redemptive chance.
Evoution says we are here by accident and death is assured, there is no afterlife, no hope of redemption, no hope of glory, no hope of any kind. What a sad and twisted lie.
Evoution and Christianity simply cannot coexist.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
August 31, 2009 8:42 PM
Failure, as they have a natural explnation. You need something like an eternally burning bush. Something that scientists, magicians, and professional debunkers, can all say is of divine, and not natural, origin. Failure by a godbot to show evidence. Just like the sun rising in the east. Lies happen almost every time they open their mouths.You, as a godbot, always get this backwards. But then, you are too stupid to get it right. Parsimony requires, in the absence of positive evidence, something doesn't exist until that evidence is avail. Just as you don't have an invisible pink unicorn in your garage.Then go away, and stay away. You waste your time by posting here. If you come here, we will correct your idiocy and delusions.Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
August 31, 2009 8:46 PM
Then the delusion and insanity of Xianity must go. Rationality will win in the end. You failed.Posted by: Wowbagger, OM | August 31, 2009 8:46 PM
Sigh. Some of you have seen this before, but I feel it's appropriate: Cada vez que alimentas a un troll...Dios mata un gatito.
Posted by: Evolution denier | August 31, 2009 8:48 PM
Okay, bye. I have to finish my book of herbs and vitamins and remedies before the socialist Obama elderly killing baby slaughtering medical rationing mandatory suicide murder machine plan goes into effect. I have to finish my stockpile list as well.
Oh and give my regards to Ed Brayton and his band of elves. Tell them I said MERRY CHRISTMAS! They'll know what you mean!
Ha!
Yall come back now ya hear!
Posted by: Jafafa Hots | August 31, 2009 8:48 PM
Poe.
Posted by: Sastra | August 31, 2009 8:56 PM
Evolution Denier #127 wrote:
But, in the situation I gave, it's one or the other. If you did think evolution occurred, then you'd presumably become an atheist, since you clearly see no possible way that you can both accept the Bible, and also accept evolution.
Do you think then that theistic evolutionists have more faith than you, that they still wouldn't abandon their Christian religion, when by all your reasoning they should?
Posted by: Kseniya | August 31, 2009 9:02 PM
Dang! I missed the raving lunatic by that much.
Posted by: Sastra | August 31, 2009 9:13 PM
Kseniya #134 wrote:
Maybe. He said 'bye' once before, and it wasn't quite final.
Posted by: Katy | August 31, 2009 9:49 PM
I went to this school, I played in the band, I know the people quoted. The parents are simply stuck in the mud and have always been. This debate has split Sedville even more than the arguement over Palin-the-idiot vs. Palin-the-feminist. Or even abortion! The high schoolers have the best responses, and I only wish the journalists checked out Facebook for some intelligent, unbiased views. Such as...why do we pay more attention to what the band wears than to the drug dealers?
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
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August 31, 2009 9:54 PM
Pascal's Wager. Isn't that precious.
Posted by: anonymous | August 31, 2009 10:31 PM
Whoever the hell wrote this is so freakin stupid. People can say and do what they want. If the kids didnt see a problem with it, why worry. And "Shame of Missouri", your a putts. What the hell gives you the right to say that if the kids cant have a shirt that as so called "evolution" on it. Next time please think before you title someone or something. You my friend are and arrogant ass who should not have the right to post something like this.
Posted by: matt m | August 31, 2009 10:33 PM
Gotta love missouri
Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | August 31, 2009 11:22 PM
Okay, bye. I have to finish my book of herbs and vitamins and remedies before the socialist Obama elderly killing baby slaughtering medical rationing mandatory suicide murder machine plan goes into effect. I have to finish my stockpile list as well.
Spoken like a true loon.
Posted by: Mark A. Siefert | August 31, 2009 11:33 PM
Besides missing grade school English class on the proper use of punctuation, you seemed to have missed the point entirely. The principal IS telling these kids what sort of shirts they can wear. Not only that, the principal and the teacher quoted in the article show a disdain for science education by equating evolution with a religion and proclaiming that the school should not be associated with it.
That's "putz" you schmuck.
Again, that's not what Dr. Meyers wrote. Next time, read the fucking article before you comment, please.
I very much doubt you're Dr. Meyer's friend. As for for not having a right to post this entry, the First Amendment of U.S. Constitution says otherwise.
Posted by: Jack | August 31, 2009 11:33 PM
As the creators and producers of the art work....
I see several suggestions that this design be put on Cafe Press. Even if you change the name of the school it would be a violation of federal copyright.
We, Main Street Logo, received suggestions as to what the theme of this shirt should be, with attached designs of which some were copyrighted or trade marked. The teacher was aware and informed us of that issue. Those graphics were not used.
Everything on this item is from purchased art that we have the right to use and profit from.
This art work is property of and holds a copyright of Main Street Logo, Main Street INC.
We are working on release and sale of this shirt and art work in several types of media. Our contact information
mainstreetlogo@sedaliamissouri.com. We can also be found on facebook, mainstreetlogo.
Any copies or changes to this design except by the creator, Main Street INC will be treated as a violation of federal law.
Posted by: Ben in Texas | August 31, 2009 11:45 PM
@142
Do you have any designs of someone with a stick up their butt?
Posted by: Jeff Eyges
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September 1, 2009 5:56 AM
As for for not having a right to post this entry, the First Amendment of U.S. Constitution says otherwise.
They're only interested in freedom of speech when it benefits them.
And this is why I have no hope left for the future of America.
Posted by: Tony Whitson | September 1, 2009 8:43 AM
Actually, the First Amendment protects PZ from interference by the government in posting on his blog, but it doesn't give anybody else a "right" to post anything on his blog.... not even Larry the Farfelman would claim to have such a right.
Posted by: Carole | September 1, 2009 11:57 AM
Hey Jack @ 142
Did you perhaps mean to say something along the lines of "thanks for your support here guys, we seem to find ourselves in a slightly crazy situation, and it's good to know the wider world is siding with reality. Oh and by the way, please don't use our design, we're holding a copyright, and we're hoping to print more of these perhaps."
Did that starchy "Any copies or changes to this design except by the creator, Main Street INC will be treated as a violation of federal law" which makes you sound like a bit of a jerk frankly, just creep in there by mistake? Thought so.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
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September 1, 2009 12:12 PM
@Carole: Yeah, that could have been handled in so many better ways than by posting a legal threat. Like, say, suggesting that interested people visit their web site. (Which sucks, admittedly, but at least has more contact information than an email.)
Posted by: donnie | September 1, 2009 1:40 PM
I fell I must appologise for the stupidity of my fellow Sedalians. I have know for many years that there were theis kinds of idiots and I wish I would have been able to do something signifacant to stop their influence and to educate my fellow students of teh time. It is quite embarrasing to be affiliated with stuch idiots all the time.
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | September 1, 2009 2:15 PM
quoted fer lulz
Posted by: scientist | September 1, 2009 4:54 PM
What is unfortunate is in the United States we pick the bottom of the barrel to be teachers. We dumb down the science courses so they can pass them. There are basic chemistry for educators courses in a lot of schools that have education departments, same for math, physics, biology.
They have the lowest SAT and GRE scores as a group. Been that way for decades.
You go to a private school in the US, you're probably not going to be taught by somebody with an education degree. Which is why private schools turn out better students than public schools. It does not help that there is a trend in the US for 'home schooling' where all you need are textbooks by mail to be able to train your child.
Its insane, but that's what is going on.
In my opinion, the next major crisis in the US will be education after health care. A new generation of clueless idiots will hit the world stage and not know what to do.
Posted by: Beatle Bob | September 1, 2009 7:33 PM
As far as I'm concerned, I'M A BELIEVER in musical evolution and this genre of evolution is not based on religion or science. In fact, it's a STEPPIN' STONE to further musical enhancement. And I have unrefutable truth (hit video link below) to my statements made above.
And here's hoping that the Smith-Cotton High School band has more fun than a barrelful of MONKEES.
Beatle Bob
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfuBREMXxts
Posted by: Dale Downs | September 1, 2009 10:54 PM
I grew up in this area. Brad Pollitt was even the principal of my school in Smithton for a short time when I went there. These people live in a creationist bubble. Smithton blacked out evolution from their textbooks. I went to college in the real world. I feel like 13 years of education (k-12) all at Smithton were completely wasted. I hope for a better America one day. We need to educate our children.
Posted by: Rebecca | September 2, 2009 5:14 PM
I can't believe that so many people have this much time on your hands. Nice to see how many of you are posting during your work hours.
Posted by: Hall Monitor | September 2, 2009 7:18 PM
This story made http://detentionslip.org ! Check it out for all the crazy headlines from our schools.
Prayer in schools is this months HOT BUTTON issue.
Posted by: smithcottonalum | September 4, 2009 5:57 PM
A reenactment of the events in Mr. Pollitt's office! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bOfprrqJuU
Posted by: mark | September 9, 2009 12:38 PM
where can I get a shirt?
Posted by: Smith Cotton | September 20, 2009 12:57 PM
First of all, I know the shop owner that helped to create those shirts, and he is a very devout Christian, as is his family. Second, I have lived around the Sedalia area for about 13 years and do not consider myself stupid by any means and take offense to all of the comments being made about small town residents. Just because we are "small town folk" does not mean that we are stupid, and just because we do not adhere to the ideas of evolution does not mean that we are idiots (remind yourself that this is the Bible Belt of America, and yes, some of our ideology still dates back to that of our natio'n' founders (ie GOD)). The funniest thing about this is that individuals took it way out of context, and instead of seeing the humor in it, or the abstract meaning, they took it completely literal.
Also, I now live in the metro area and have gone to a couple of elementary schools to do volunteer work, and compared to the information that I was required to know at their grade level, these kids fall way behind. My college coursework has also been mostly biology and had I been started at a naive level without a bias towards either of the concepts, I would be equally unconvinced since Evolution still contains many assumptions, and since all that is required for a THEORY (which by definition cannot be proven true) to be proven incorrect is ONE CONTRADICTION. I have also worked on a Miller-Urey experiment(for all of those evolution savvy people, you should have no problem knowing what this is) so I very much understand the probability of amino acids and proteins coming together just at the perfectly for "life" to be created. In conclusion, small town does not equal stupid. Understand the weaknesses in your belief system before you go on to tear into the beliefs of others.
(PS- I was also a student while this guy was a vice principal at another school)