…and this is a 
Come on, if Texas can open a Camp Quest, what's your state's excuse?
There's also a nice article with a poll on the new godless camp — it's mostly positive, but they do go out of their way to get a quote from a dissenter.
But Dr. Darrell Bock of the Dallas Theological Seminary doesn't believe that being more vocal will have much impact. "People pretty much have their minds made up on these kinds of matters. They're either going to be for or against," he said.
Hey, that's good news! Dr Darrell Bock of the Dallas Theological Seminary has just declared evangelism dead. Do you think the Baptists will notice?
Oh, and here's the poll…already going our way.
A group is planning a statewide atheist summer camp for kids in Collin County. What do you think?
No big deal w/ parental approval 50%
This is the Bible Belt, why here? 27%
It should just be a secular camp. 23%
Comments
Posted by: Jared | August 19, 2009 2:01 PM
If anyone from Louisiana is interested in starting one, I'd be happy to help out!
Posted by: Dustin | August 19, 2009 2:02 PM
Now I know it's probably selfish of me to want one of these in Wisconsin when I'm only 3.5 hours from the Minnesota camp, but the La Crosse, WI area's awfully nice. Why, it's almost perfect for an atheist camp. :-)
Just sayin'.
Posted by: TheBear | August 19, 2009 2:02 PM
Let's just hope that Ramones-song "the KKK took my baby away" doesn't become very relevant.
Posted by: Geds | August 19, 2009 2:06 PM
I'm gonna have to disagree with Dr. Bock there.
A few years ago I would probably have been amongst the knee-jerk anti-Camp Quest crowd. These days I think they're a fantastic idea. I think they should start re-purposing Christian summer camps that are going out of business...
Posted by: uberlieder | August 19, 2009 2:09 PM
Hrm. I actually kinda disagree with these camps. Not because they are atheist, but because they are aimed at younger kids. I would rather that they presented children with info on religion and on science/atheism, and leave it up to the children to decide. Nowadays, if you have any logic, its easy to see which is the right option. That's what I would do with my own kids. Besides that, awesome that there is one in Texas! Now we just need one in Oregon.
Posted by: Fred Mounts | August 19, 2009 2:12 PM
I voted secular only. It would be hypocritical to decry children being schooled in religion and then say that they should be schooled in no religion. As long as they're taught critical thinking, no mention of atheism is necessary; they'll likely figure it out on their own.
I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank whoever recommended reading Gangs of America. As if I wasn't already pissed off enough about religion, I now have a disturbing book about corporations getting my blood pressure up. It's disgusting material, but I love reading it so that I know what I'm up against, as are we all.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | August 19, 2009 2:13 PM
I would suspect that it's mostly preaching to the "converted." Not exclusively, of course, because friends will follow the secular kids if it's a fun camp.
Can't hurt, anyhow. At least knowing there are "unbelievers" who are willing to be known as such is helpful.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: JJR | August 19, 2009 2:15 PM
I'm heartened by Camp Quest and its related youth camps, wish I'd had one to go to during my childhood. My Dad is a retired science teacher and I think harbored the germ of the idea for Camp Quest, but since he was just one man, and kind of introverted, he never moved beyond giving a few science demonstration type shows after he retired. I suspect he has long been a closet atheist, but never willing to come out and say it, but he also never hid his contempt for the overtly religious. He's getting up there in age now and probably too old to help out with projects like Camp Quest, but I think he would've been a joiner if these things had existed right around the time he retired; he was just too shy to ever take the lead himself. I joke with my dad that he should run for Texas SBOE, but my mom jokes back that the idiots there would probably make him so mad in a face-to-face meeting that he'd suffer a heart attack on the spot.
Posted by: PZ Myers
|
August 19, 2009 2:19 PM
Uberlieder, you should visit one. You'll discover that they do NOT treat atheism as dogma. Kids are taught critical thinking, and they also discuss world religions comparatively.
Posted by: Victor | August 19, 2009 2:21 PM
Why is there no real "yes" option? I mean if the kids are going to the camp it can only be assumed they have parental consent so why should that even be a concern, it's not like the camp bus is going to drive around Texas kidnapping kids to take them to camp. Why can't it just be 'I support atheist's right to have a camp'?
Posted by: SatansParakeet | August 19, 2009 2:24 PM
The poll wording is really pushing people to choose the camp quest side isn't it? You can tell these online questionnaires are just thrown together by an intern in their spare time. Not that I'm complaining really, but there are two answers in favor of the camp (one just suggesting a slightly different focus) and one that asks a question and immediately answers it:
Q: This is the Bible Belt, why here?
A: Because it's the frickin' Bible Belt where non-believing kids need it most.
Posted by: tsg | August 19, 2009 2:31 PM
I'm confused. Exactly what is hypocritical about not wanting children being taught religion and then not teaching them religion?
Posted by: BenYitzhak | August 19, 2009 2:32 PM
I think it's an interesting approach. If I ever have a child, I might try sending the kid to Camp Quest. I like the statement of purpose they have on the main page. Though, I'd also want to send the kid to a Jewish summer camp. As long as the times don't overlap, I think it'd work.
Posted by: Joe G. | August 19, 2009 2:32 PM
Hey, don't be too hard on Texas. Almost twice as many people in Texas voted for President Obama as in Massachusetts. In a massive state like Texas, even if rational and intelligent people are a small minority, there will still be a lot of them.
Posted by: uberlieder | August 19, 2009 2:32 PM
Thank you PZ, I forgot to mention that I do not know very much about these Camps, or what exactly goes on. If that is the case, than I am very much in favor of them.
Posted by: Jim | August 19, 2009 2:34 PM
if i was young enough to be sent to this camp i think i would hate it (just as much as being sent to some bible-thumping camp).
if i was a kid sent to camp, i would want to have FUN not having my young brain shaped by whatever the adults think is proper thinking.
send the kid to camp to play, create, socialize with other kids, get some outdoors time, commune with nature.
i guess my own POV would work its way in cause if i set up a kiddie camp there would be no tv or other electronic distractors.
Posted by: Allyson | August 19, 2009 2:40 PM
@Dustin #2:
The La Crosse area IS nice, but would not Madison, being the home of the FFRF and already very liberal in and of itself be a BETTER option?
Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | August 19, 2009 2:44 PM
No. The local Baptist church left a flier for their summer Bible camp at my door just the other day.Posted by: Fred Mounts | August 19, 2009 2:46 PM
TSG @12:
What I was trying to get across, in my rush to post between phone calls, was that the children shouldn't be taught that there is a god or that there isn't. Hence, don't teach religion or no religion, just leave it unmentioned altogether. Hopefully that cleared the confusion, but if not, I'll try, try again :o)
Posted by: tsg | August 19, 2009 2:51 PM
Okay, but I still don't see how it is hypocritical to say one is bad and the other one isn't, unless by "teach" you mean "indoctrinate", but that's not what Camp Quest does.
Posted by: mathyoo | August 19, 2009 2:54 PM
I'd love to see a Camp Quest here in Colorado, and would be happy to volunteer to help out/organize, if I could find enough atheist/secular humanist parents who would be interested.
Posted by: KeithLM | August 19, 2009 2:56 PM
A lot of you obviously haven't been following the various Camp Quest posts here and other places this summer. Here's a quote from the article that explains it quite simply:
"It's just a camp, for kids, who want to have a camp experience without having the religious dogma placed upon them," she said.
There are not many secular summer camps, and that's what this is. Why does this have to be repeated so often? It's not an atheist camp, it's just a camp without religion.
Posted by: John Salerno
|
August 19, 2009 2:57 PM
@#6: I agree, a secular camp is perfectly fine. I don't like the option of "no big deal with parental approval." That's no different than parents "approving" the teaching of Christianity to children too young to know any better.
Posted by: tsg | August 19, 2009 3:04 PM
Oh, that clears it up.
Wait...what?
Posted by: Fred Mounts | August 19, 2009 3:05 PM
@20
I know what Camp Quest is and what they do and don't do; I was simply explaining why I chose what I did on the poorly worded poll.
Posted by: nkb | August 19, 2009 3:09 PM
WOOHOOOOOO!
No more camp envy for us Texas atheists!
My kids are still a little too young, but I hope this takes off, because I would definitely like my kids to try it.
Now, just to get my wife's buy-in (she's a non-practicing Catholic). We have an agreement to not indoctrinate the kids in any worldview, and let them decide for themselves when they are mature enough.
I wish this camp was not labeled as an atheist camp, because thay will make it harder to sell for anyone who still harbors negative stereotypes about non-believers.
Posted by: Chief | August 19, 2009 3:13 PM
I thought that Camp Quest was a secular camp that encourages skeptical and critical thought (no religious or anti-religious affiliation). Why then does the poll ask about an atheist camp, if not to skew the results?
Posted by: advertisinglies | August 19, 2009 3:23 PM
The problem here is the wording of the article. Camp Quest is a secular camp which is favored by atheists - it's not an atheist camp. It makes sense that a secular camp would be favored by atheists because so many summer camps are put on by religious groups. The assumption that if they're not pushing religion they must be pushing atheism is pretty ridiculous. I've looked into these camps for my son and I have a friend who sent her kid to the California camp and from all the information I've received, the camp doesn't try to push atheism. It's not even strictly for atheists - it's a fun, secular camp where everyone is welcome. Would the strictly religious send their kid to this kind of camp? Probably not since critical thinking and science are celebrated. Does that make it an atheist camp? No - it's just a camp option that atheist parents can feel comfortable with.
Posted by: littlejohn | August 19, 2009 3:25 PM
I have to disagree, SatansParakeet. Having two pro-Quest answers doesn't work to our advantage; quite the contrary. It wplits our votes.
Xians have only one obvious answer. Many people won't mentally count the "no big deal" and "secular" answers as essentially similar. They'll just look at each number.
I suggest we not split our votes. I voted "no big deal." It's up to 80% It would be more impressive if "secular" weren't bleeding off our support.
Posted by: nkb | August 19, 2009 3:31 PM
There is one big drawback to this camp thing. It's a summer camp! In Texas!
I'm sure Minnesota and Ohio are lovely during the summer, but how much fun will kids have in 100+ North Texas heat?
Posted by: Kassul | August 19, 2009 3:32 PM
As @ 11 says, the 2nd poll option is kinda wtf.
"This is the Bible Belt, why here?"
BECAUSE this is the Bible Belt, and hence discrimination and ostracizing can be expected to be more common than in other more areas.
Seriously, if someone honestly asks that question and doesn't have an inkling already of the answer, they need to broaden their horizons.
Posted by: Trug | August 19, 2009 3:48 PM
Being stuck here in Texas for the next 3.5 years or so and having a young kid of my own, I can say that I'm very happy to see this camp taking off. When you're surrounded by Baptist churches on practically every street corner and not much else, you take everything you can get.
From looking over the website, I'm not really seeing where people are getting worked up about the camp preaching atheism. I'd always thought that atheism wasn't about preaching anything, it (should) be the natural conclusion that people reach if they go into life with critical thinking skills and a healthy dose of skepticism. The camp seems to just be promoting those skills, not showing the kiddos Richard Dawkins films ad nauseum or anything. My kid can get those at home anyway!
Posted by: The Pint | August 19, 2009 4:02 PM
This is aces! I have some relatives in Texas who would love to send their kids to something like Camp Quest - the term "home school" has been thrown around more frequently as the kids have been getting older because their parents are aghast at the shenanigans of the SBOE. They want their kids to learn critical thinking skills in school, not be indoctrinated into a particular mode of thinking. From what I've seen on the Camp's website, teaching critical thinking skills - NOT indoctrinating kids about atheism - is the aim of the camp. How sad that there are going to be those who'll jump to the assumption that "teaching kids to think for themselves/not including Jebus in every camp activity" = "they're turning the kids into unbelievers!"
Posted by: Robin | August 19, 2009 4:14 PM
Atheist camp? Really? What's the fucking point? The reason there are religious camps is because some people are so nutso about their faith they feel like their whole lives have to revolve around it. Part of the reason I am an atheist is because it doesn't come with that kind of obsessive baggage, so you can just get on with your life and think about more important things. This reminds me, appropriately enough, of the part in the movie Jesus Camp where the camp director says she wants to teach kids to be as devoted to Christianity as the terrorist bombers are to their religion. Adopting the tactics of your opposition does not make you a more effective movement. Just because there are religious camps out there that indoctrinate kids doesn't mean there should be atheist camps doing the same thing, but with a different doctrine. Indoctrination should not be a part of atheism, because that's exactly what atheism is against.
Furthermore, designing a camp around what you DON'T believe in is absurd. If you want to instill principles of critical thinking, why not just call it science camp?
Posted by: tsg | August 19, 2009 4:31 PM
Why do you assume that an atheist camp is using indoctrination?
It's no more absurd than designing a vegetarian camp around not eating meat.
Posted by: Trug | August 19, 2009 4:31 PM
#34:
I don't see anywhere on the site that talks about indoctrination. It's called Camp Quest, not Atheist Fundamentals Camp. There's nothing that says that it's strictly for atheists, anyone is welcome to attend. It seems to just be a good camp for kids to learn some useful skills without getting a shitload of religious garbage dumped in.
Posted by: Angel | August 19, 2009 4:49 PM
Wow, that looks pretty good actually. A nice alternative to the "stuff" we get here in Ea. TX. I may have to look into that. Thanks for the tip. Not a single news source here picked up on it.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | August 19, 2009 5:05 PM
these Camp Quest thingies are pretty much the only reason for me to raise my (so far hypothetical) children in the U.S. I'm not aware that Critical Thinking Camps exist in Germany. Certainly none of the ones I got shipped off to had anything to do with thinking, critically or otherwise
Posted by: pdferguson | August 19, 2009 5:08 PM
Man, this sort of nonsense really pisses me off. How did children's summer camp become the latest battleground for issues their parents fight over? When did swimming, volleyball, and making boondoggle keychains get replaced by training for future jihadists or classes on comparative religion? It's FUCKING SUMMER CAMP! Parents who pack their kids off to Christ camp are just practicing the child abuse known as religion, and THIS is the model they're trying to replicate for children of atheists? What a craptastic idea. On beautiful summer days, kids don't need either religion or atheism (excuse me, "critical thinking skills") shoved down their throats, they need to be outside running and playing and laughing. There will be plenty of time later on to learn how to hate people who aren't like them.
Sheesh...
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | August 19, 2009 5:11 PM
oh yeah, because being able to think critically is the same as hating other people. way to blow a fuse over nothing.
Posted by: eddie | August 19, 2009 5:22 PM
Careful what you wish for Jadehawk OM, aren't all these camps for kids based on the old Godwin Youth movement?
Posted by: pdferguson | August 19, 2009 5:24 PM
I figured someone would jump on my last sentence, I just didn't think it would happen so quickly. My point is that summer camp shouldn't be school. It seems I'm in the minority on this, but that's my opinion. Summer programs devoted to religion or atheism or politics or science aren't camps, even if they take place on a lake in the woods. They're schools. Growing up, I went to summer camps and I went to summer schools, they aren't the same thing.
No fuses were harmed in the writing of this message.
Posted by: tmaxPA | August 19, 2009 5:25 PM
No big deal w/ parental approval 85%
This is the Bible Belt, why here? 7%
It should just be a secular camp. 8%
Posted by: Trug | August 19, 2009 5:28 PM
@ 39:
I think you're missing the point, and getting pretty pissed about it. The whole point of this camp IS for kids to be outside playing, having a good time, and learning something while they're at it. What it is NOT is being outside playing, having a good time and being told that Jeebus is the reason for all of it. It is also not a place where the kids are getting told that atheism is the only way and we must crush all theistic people of the world under our Iron Fist of Justice®. Not sure where you got that impression, but it certainly isn't justified.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | August 19, 2009 5:37 PM
except that these camps aren't summer school. but hey, reading the actual programs f=of the different Camp Quests with the activities was too much effort, right?
I for one would have loved to go to a camp that allowed me to do some challenging thinking. school certainly did no such thing (except, ironically, in Cath. Rel. classes, because we spent all of those arguing with our teachers since it wasn't actually possible to fail that class)
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | August 19, 2009 5:43 PM
from the fact that you said "godwin youth" i'll assume you were being sarcastic and will therefore smother the desire to respond venomously :-p
Posted by: pdferguson | August 19, 2009 5:48 PM
As would many people here, no doubt. I preferred to learn how to sail or waterski or ride a horse. I had my parents to teach me to do some challenging thinking, which they did the other 50 weeks of the year.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | August 19, 2009 5:56 PM
*sigh*
from the "partial list of activities" of Camp Quest Minnesota:
now STFU about how it's just like summer school and the kids don't get to do anything fun.
Posted by: Joreth | August 19, 2009 6:19 PM
I really don't understand why there's all this debate in the first place. I went to science camp as a kid. It wasn't anti-religion, it didn't discuss religion at all. We learned about sciencey stuff. At band camp, kids learn about band stuff. At cheer camp, kids learn about cheerleading. At religious retreats, we discussed religious things. At space camp, the focus is on space-related science.
I just don't understand what the big frakkin' deal is with having a kids camp that leaves out god and emphasizes logic, science, and critical thinking? We've had these for a long time and I've never heard of there being a controversy until only recently.
So what if they don't discuss god at science camp? They don't discuss god at band camp or cheer camp or space camp either. That's not the point. I'd be pretty pissed if I went to a sewing circle and got lectured about quantum mechanics, or attended a medical convention and had panels on Shakespeare. It has nothing to do with whether or not I like those subjects or "believe" in them, it has to do with the fact that I'm going for a specific purpose and that's off-topic.
Posted by: pdferguson | August 19, 2009 6:23 PM
Wow, you really are on a tear, aren't you? Fine, you don't agree with my opinion, that's your right. I think camps that bring adult issues like religion into them are a bad idea, regardless of whether they are pro-religion or not. I think summer camp should be for fun outdoor activities and shouldn't dilute that with academics; for many kids those two weeks are their only exposure to activities they cannot enjoy the rest of the year. That's my opinion, as I've stated several times now. (And incidentally, I never made any statement that kids don't get to do anything fun, those are your words not mine, and they're wrong.)
I won't tell you to STFU, but you know I'm thinking it while you repeatedly demonstrate what I said in my first post about hating people who aren't like you...
Posted by: tmaxPA | August 19, 2009 6:33 PM
Fred Mounts @ 6:
I think this is, well, incomprehensible. It is hypocritical to say that children should not be schooled in religion, but should be schooled in no religion? I simply don't get it. They don't seem hypocritical in any way at all, but entirely consistent and honest.
What is hypocritical is this, from 'uberleider':
I would rather that they presented children with info on religion and on science/atheism, and leave it up to the children to decide. Nowadays, if you have any logic, its easy to see which is the right option.Are you giving them a choice, or are you not? You are not leaving it to the children to decide (nor should you), you are just indoctrinating them in your preferred argument.
I know, you're both probably just saying you want a more "teach them the truth and they will learn to recognize it" kind of idea. But you don't do that by lying to children and telling them they are competent to decide between two easy options about what is true.
It is like the "teach the controversy" idea, that maybe it wouldn't 'hurt' to allow creationists to explain their views to kids in science class, so that they can 'decide' on their own what they 'believe'. But it is science class: what you believe is irrelevant. Nor are children capable of having any kind of informed opinion on these matters; they are only capable of parroting whatever claims someone teachs them, and that is almost as true for atheists as it is for any religion-based ethic. Children should be given instruction to be taught what is true, not asked their opinion about what they would like to be true.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | August 19, 2009 6:36 PM
there you are again, bullshitting about "hating people"...
and I sure as fuck would like to know how many kids get to do things like archaeology anywhere else than at summer camp...
you don't like Camp Quest? fine, don't send your kids there. but don't fucking start an idiotic rant about how it's brainwashing just like the Christians do, how it's like summer school, or how it's about teaching kids how to hate others. because that's complete and utter bullshit.
Posted by: Joreth | August 19, 2009 6:40 PM
There is also a lot of confusion over the word "atheist".
Atheist means, literally, "without god". It does not mean "pushing a set of believes that there is NO god". It means only "without". An individual can extrapolate that to mean "there isn't a god" or "there probably is no god" or "there most likely is no god", etc., but the word itself does not assume there is no god, it is completely devoid of the god concept entirely.
An "atheist camp" is a camp without god.
What people seem to be afraid of is that Camp Quest is a "Pro-Atheism Camp", meaning a camp that preaches the belief that there is No God. And that's not the same thing at all as an "atheist camp".
Some people have tried to clear up the confusion by calling it a "secular camp", which is equally as accurate as the literal translation of "atheist", but is less scary because of the emotional subtext many people have attached to the term "atheist".
So, yes, *technically*, the term "atheist camp" is accurate because it is a camp without god.
But emotionally, people hear the term "atheist camp" and think "they're going to spend all summer lecturing the kids about there being no god!", which is not what the word means.
So "secular camp" can be substituted.
But, for the record, as several people have already said, this is not a camp preaching the Word of Atheism. It's a camp where they don't address religion, spirituality, or god because they're focused on fun activities that simultaneously teach science, logic, and critical thinking.
Posted by: Joreth | August 19, 2009 6:55 PM
" I think summer camp should be for fun outdoor activities and shouldn't dilute that with academics;"
Seriously? Did you read the website at all? That IS what Camp Quest does. The point is that they do it WITHOUT ADDING GOD.
And you really only got 2 weeks of summer break? Wow, if I had that little time off, I might be as pissed as you are about the idea of continuing education. But I always got 2-3 months off in the summer, and I LOVED my science camp experiences. Although I don't recall my school ever prohibiting me from hiking or playing sports or going to the petting zoo or making arts and crafts either (that's what weekends, Teacher's Day, and holidays were for), so I fail to see how being in school automatically means that these kids have no other chance to do any of these "fun summer activities".
Running around in the woods, learning how to tell the gender of an animal from its tracks, identifying bird calls, learning archery and hiking and swimming and making lanyards ... that *was* my idea of a good summer. Having no mention of god whatsoever in the lessons? Even better.
Posted by: Joreth | August 19, 2009 7:03 PM
(damn it, really ought to think about what I'm writing before I send it so I don't end up with half a dozen posts one right after the other)
I've been to summer camp, and I've been to summer school. Zero similarity! And I certainly learned more at summer camp!
Posted by: Will | August 19, 2009 7:04 PM
Just so you know there is another poll that is available. http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local-beat/Secular-Kids-Camp-Arrives-in-N-Texas-53568737.html
40% thrilled
35% sad
14% intrigued
5% furious
4% laughing
3% Bored
Posted by: pdferguson | August 19, 2009 7:12 PM
And there you are again, putting words in my mouth that I never said ("it's brainwashing just like the Christians do") and ratcheting up the level of invective.
You also apparently missed the sarcasm in my statement about teaching kids to hate people who aren't like them (Psst... That's what the religious kids learn--ever seen Jesus Camp?)
I've made my point, you've made yours. Time to step back and take a deep breath, don't you think?
Posted by: Fred Mounts | August 19, 2009 7:21 PM
I don't recall ever saying that the decision is between two easy choices. Children should be taught to think for themselves, presented with the choices when they are mentally prepared to understand (at whatever point that is), and then left to pursue their interests.
I'm simply dense on the point of what's wrong with teaching critical thinking without explicitly saying what the goal is or may be.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | August 19, 2009 7:21 PM
of course I got the sarcasm. I got the comparison that you're now trying to deny, too.
Posted by: Bob P | August 19, 2009 7:47 PM
I voted for having them since everyone should be able to have the type of camp they want with parental approval. I agree Fred Mounts though in that the best ones would be inclusive of all. I was brought up being exposed to religion, but skepticism was encouraged in my home. When you are exposed to all types of thought, it is like you have been given an immunization shot - you have more resistance to the irrational.
Posted by: pdferguson | August 19, 2009 7:49 PM
Well, since you won't let it go, I guess I'll have to continue to try to explain myself. I know you want me to STFU, to which my only response is FYATHYRIO.
My point is that looking at the model of Christian camps and trying to replicate that in atheist (or if you prefer, secular) camps is potentially making the same mistake; it is bringing an adult issue down into the children's world. The struggle between the religious and non-religious members of our society is a deadly serious issue, we all know that. We also know that educating our children to give them the tools of critical thinking are extremely important if we ever hope to avoid the worst effects of religion on our nation. No one denies that.
The question is where the boundaries are, who should be responsible for this aspect of children's education, and whether summer camp is an appropriate place for this. I maintain it is not, because it can (can, not will) turn summer camp into a proxy battleground for the fight going on among their parents.
That's my opinion. I don't know how to make it any more clear than that.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | August 19, 2009 8:04 PM
that may be your opinion, but in your original rant, you expressed it in a very concern-trollish manner, most notably the idiotic statement that atheists are trying to emulate Christian Camps and indoctrinate. That was either factually incorrect (since Camp Quest isn't doing that; nor is it turning Summer Camp into Summer School), or a Slippery Slope of some sort; either way, it was a stupid rant. And your follow-ups weren't any less concern-trollish, with the exception of your last post.
As I've already told you, if you don't like it, send your kids to non-thinking camps; but don't make trollish attacks on the ones that DO include critical thinking exercises just because YOU don't like them. At the very least, have the decency to attack the camps for something they actually do, not for something you imagine they might maybe sorta resemble doing from what little you've heard about them.
Posted by: John Morales | August 19, 2009 8:07 PM
pdferguson,
It's clear enough; it is also clear that it's idiosyncratic and not shared by others.
Your characterisation seems wildly divergent from that of the article linked in the post:
Amie is organizing Camp Quest Texas. It's camp for children and their parents who are atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers and other non-religious followers.
"It's just a camp, for kids, who want to have a camp experience without having the religious dogma placed upon them," she said.
Are you confident that your opinion is based on an informed and factually accurate evidentiary basis?
Posted by: Patrick Craig | August 20, 2009 12:08 AM
I'm completely with pdferguson on this - it's ridiculous to have an "indoctrination camp" on either side, whether religious or non. Summer camp should be just that: summer camp, without the hate.
I noticed that Prof. Myers dropped into the comments with a suggestion that Uberlieder visit a Camp Quest (#9). Hey, Prof. Myers, could you explain to me why, when I wrote to the main CQ site asking if I could pay a visit sometime, they never wrote back? E-mail glitch, maybe? Or could it be because they don't want me to find out that, in truth, they are a bunch of extremist bigots who bash religion in front of the kids? Believe me, I would LOVE to be proven wrong on this one...
Since they won't reply to me, would someone like to tell the CQ people that I'm trying to get in touch with them, and that I want to see for myself what they're doing to the kids? Golly, that's a big theme in science, right? Seeing the undisputable evidence for yourself?
Oh, and Jadehawk, OM? Thanks for continuing the grand tradition of making secular people all look like complete and total jerks. You're a credit to the theists.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | August 20, 2009 12:15 AM
pat, we already know theists and accomodationists prefer polite lies to blunt honesty. that you excel at taking offense at everything is not my problem
Posted by: Patrick Craig | August 20, 2009 12:31 AM
Hey, I saw that very same useless comment on YouBoob recently - "it's not my problem." You'd make a fantastic apologist for the extreme right wing Christians, Jadehawk. You fight just like them. Perhaps you'd like to make rationality "your problem?" It seems so lacking in our community these days...
Twenty minutes, and my challenge remains unanswered. I imagine it won't ever be. Sigh. But I must concede that "Camp Hate" is not a crime, and it's free to go.
And the War goes on... :)
Posted by: John Morales | August 20, 2009 12:45 AM
Patrick:
Not really. Jadehawk is honest.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | August 20, 2009 12:45 AM
come on, I only need 2 more squares on my concern-troll bingo. post one more time, please?
Posted by: Patrick Craig | August 20, 2009 1:04 AM
Not really. Jadehawk is honest.
In your opinion, Mr. Morales. Any empirical evidence?
Still waiting for someone to answer my challenge. And I believe that you, Mr. Jadehawk, are the troll. Perhaps you might tell me to STFU. And I'm certain that you'd be quite willing to back that up with violence. Again, thank you for making nonreligious people look just as religious people expect us to look - like monsters.
Posted by: Ichthyic | August 20, 2009 1:16 AM
Perhaps you might tell me to STFU
sometimes, that's good advice.
It seems you can't even stop long enough to shove your foot in there, though.
Posted by: Patrick Craig | August 20, 2009 1:23 AM
Perhaps you might explain my problem to me, Ichthyic, since you've decided to jump into this with little of substance. I've expressed my agreement with pdferguson in this matter and have asked a legitimate question that has not yet been answered. All you and your buddies here can do is attack with one-liners and insults. Perhaps you might imagine a (very real) scenario where three extremist theists are ganging up on one of their own with ridicule and insults because that person is dissenting on some small matter of faith. What is it that makes you any different from what you hate?
So tell me, how do I communicate with you? What is it that I'm not understanding? Why won't you fellows answer my question?
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | August 20, 2009 3:46 AM
1)Don't start your first post with recycled concern-trolling phrases (incidentally "why are you ignoring me" was the last square I needed... but I'm surprised my bingo card doesn't have "no, YOU are the troll"... it's common enough)
2)Skip the conspiracy theories (yeah, they're not responding to you because they have something to hide and hope that if they just ignore you, you'll forget all about them; not because they're busy people, who probably get hundreds of e-mails from various crazies)
3)Tone down on the demands, especially ones made in the middle of the night.
Posted by: John Morales | August 20, 2009 8:53 AM
Patrick @71,
You've agreed with someone who offered an opinion based on a jaundiced misrepresentation of the situation.
Fair enough, though it speaks little for your acumen.
In your initial post, you asked more than one question — do you refer to "Hey, Prof. Myers, could you explain to me why, when I wrote to the main CQ site asking if I could pay a visit sometime, they never wrote back?", or do you refer to "Since they won't reply to me, would someone like to tell the CQ people that I'm trying to get in touch with them, and that I want to see for myself what they're doing to the kids?"
If the first, I fail to see how it is legitimate to ask a third party to explain the lack of response to you of an unaffiliated second party.
If the second, you seem rather impatient (and you may assume that a non-answer is a de-facto response in the negative).
In both cases, I wonder at your sense of entitlement.
I add that your bombast and sarcasm are hardly likely to engender approbatory responses.
I base my opinion on Jadehawk's corpus on this forum over a lengthy period. I, however, feel no obligation to search for and draw your attention to relevant previous comments.
You should perhaps also be aware that the OM after poster's names indicates an award bestowed by PZ for a history of worthy commenting; to accuse such a person of being a troll is somewhat of a faux pas. :)
Making definitive inferences from such a small evidentiary base seems rather presumptuous.
I offer you my opinion of you based on what you have posted, in turn: I think your truculent stance and predilection for indignancy bespeak of immaturity and poor impulse control.
Posted by: Patrick Craig | August 20, 2009 2:10 PM
Uh...yeah. Okay, I'm not going to prolong this, since it's obvious you guys have abandoned all reason and rationality in favour of "one-upmanship" and insults. I suppose it's not relevant to mention that we're all on the same side here and perhaps could have discussed this a little more civilly? Nah. You're too full of hate, and funny - it's exactly how religious people describe us. Telling anyone to "STFU" is completely wrong and should have gotten you kicked off this blog. That's cowardice.
My contention, unchallenged, is this: "hate camps" on either side are unnecessary and pointless. By creating something like "Camp Quest" we damage our children just as much as extremist religious people damage theirs. Indoctrination is wrong, no matter who is doing it. I hope that there are more secular people reading this who have the sense to understand that.
Good luck fighting religion - and your fellow secularists - with hatred. You're incredibly brave, and so intelligent. I have no doubt, though, you're going to lose, and the evidence is all around us right now. Have a nice day.
Posted by: TiG | August 20, 2009 2:54 PM
To Patrick @ 74
STFU.
Posted by: Julie | August 20, 2009 7:18 PM
Um..frankly, if I'm a parent sending my kid to a summer camp, then I'm mighty glad they aren't responding to requests from random strangers on the internet to "come and take a look around."
Posted by: E.V. | August 20, 2009 7:26 PM
Your evidence for this is...? Oh, it is your opinion that it is "just as much as extremist"...Noted.
Rejected but noted.
Posted by: TJ Longshore | August 20, 2009 7:58 PM
Yay for Texas. For once positive news out of our state!
Posted by: Grant | August 20, 2009 8:27 PM
Just looked at the news website... looks like some atheists have found the pole, it now reads 90%/4%/6%.
shame on us! :)
Posted by: J Todd DeShong | August 21, 2009 7:25 AM
WOW! Being from Texas (sadly) I am shocked! Let's just hope some idiot red neck (like former Governor/President) Bush doesn't go there and shoot up the place.
JTD
Posted by: Teleria | August 24, 2009 2:05 AM
For those not up on their russian this evening, the poster above (#81) says that the conversation is a good one and it came up on a search of the internet.
I am new here... do you get a lot of people who post in other languages on an english speaking blog?
Posted by: Forbidden Snowflake | August 24, 2009 2:21 AM
Teleria:
מן הסתם, התשובה היא כן.
JK. This guy is obviously a drive-by sales-bot, putting the same generic message in a thousand blogs and forums while linking to some commercial website.