…and this is a 
A group of prominent Swedes have come out with a manifesto decrying the influence of religion in the world — which is great, but I do wonder why every time I read about famous Swedes, at least one of them has to be a former member of ABBA. It's a fine statement that promotes humanism as the only valid source of morality.
Anyway, a Danish newspaper ran a poll asking if its readers agree. Here it is:
Tolv fremtrædende svenskere blæser i manifest til kamp mod religioner, som de mener fylder alt for meget i samfundet. Er du enig? (Twelve prominent Swedes fan of manifesto to fight against religions that they feel fills too much of society. Do you agree?)
Ja (Yes) 90%
Nej (No) 9%
Ved ikke (Don't know) 2%
I feel so superfluous. Sure, go ahead, contribute to the landslide. It would be very pleasant to live in Denmark, except that their complicated language always fills me with confusion.
Comments
Posted by: Gra | September 8, 2009 9:17 AM
Plus Denmark is so bloody FLAT. If you stand on a case of Carlsberg you can see from one end of the country to the other.
I have nothing to say about my position in the comments section.
Posted by: savve | September 8, 2009 9:21 AM
I just love reading the comments!
The argument for "owning our democracy to christian values" gets a real sound trouncing. It is a beauty to read. Rarely have I read such intelligent comments on a newspaper article.
Posted by: Draken | September 8, 2009 9:22 AM
Since Politiken is considered moderately leftwing here in 'socialist' Denmark, I guess Americans must consider it a communist-bolsjewist pamphlet. Just to point out that anything less than 90% 'Yes' on their site would be suspicious.
Posted by: Anna S | September 8, 2009 9:30 AM
the answer from Scandinavian Christians is also interesting: Kristne: Demokrati bygger jo på kristendom (Christians: Democracy has its roots in Christianity)
My Danish isn't good enough to translate the whole stuff here, but it's not as idiotic as the title implies. They even realize that too much religion can be dangerous, but they underline the positive influence Christianity has had on European culture.
Disputable, but refreshingly moderate compared to fundamentalist reactions in America (or elsewhere).
Posted by: Bob O'H | September 8, 2009 9:35 AM
it's not that it's a complicated language. The problem is that it is two simple languages, the way to translate to the spoken language is to take the written language, and pretend to be extremely drunk.Oh, and to follow up Gra's (Grå's?) comment, I heard once that Denmark is so flat, the highest point in the country is actually in the sea. One of the bridges.
Posted by: Harald Bluetooth | September 8, 2009 9:37 AM
Complicated? I respectfully disagree. I have been speaking it for as long as I can remember.
Posted by: IaMoL | September 8, 2009 9:37 AM
OT. Eugenie Scott got Kwocked on Facebook:
This guy is certifiable.
Posted by: Frederik Rosenkjaer | September 8, 2009 9:42 AM
Religion doesn't fill that much here in Denmark. But still too much. I've just today discovered that there are a couple of YECs on a music production related Danish website, which further increases my suspicion that while we're nowhere near American levels industry strength ignorance is also present here.
Posted by: Børge Hørløkke Ågesen | September 8, 2009 9:44 AM
@#5 Actually the thing is that most of us here ARE drunk most of the time. It's the only way we can stand the weather here. Cheers
Posted by: Mark | September 8, 2009 9:47 AM
Ja.
Posted by: Chemgirl
|
September 8, 2009 9:48 AM
OT
Does anyone else around here read articles at Cracked.com? Camp Quest made the list of 8 Insane Ways Parents Are Politically Brainwashing Children -- at #2!
As usual for Cracked, it's a hilarious article, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am with the kind of stuff they lumped Camp Quest in with...
Posted by: Moggie | September 8, 2009 9:52 AM
If "Democracy has its roots in Christianity", you'd think Jebus might have seen fit to mention the concept. But then again, democracy rather goes against that whole Messiah thing, doesn't it? Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical manger ceremony.
Posted by: Peter Ashby | September 8, 2009 9:58 AM
Back during my PhD we had a Danish guy visiting (he was freezing wetas (giant flightless NZ crickets) in LN2 and then thawing back to life. For interests sake he gave a passage in Danish to the postdoc and myself and got us to make a stab at pronouncing it. I had done a smattering of German at school but it was no use at all. After we had tried he spoke it. As far as we could hear the sounds he made had no correlation with the letters on the page. I should point out at this point that, having been born just south of it, broad Glaswegian is perfectly intelligible to me, but written down you can see where it comes from. Not so with Danish.
I was seriously jealous of this guy, not only did he have an absolutely gorgeous German girlfriend in tow but he got a trip to the Ice for them both then came back and showed us the photos. Good job he was a thoroughly nice guy, he also taught us about Tardigrades, the toughest critters known to science. Sod the cockroaches, that bit in the babble about the meek inheriting the earth meant the Tardigrades.
Posted by: NewEnglandBob
|
September 8, 2009 9:59 AM
stemt.
Posted by: Richard Harris | September 8, 2009 10:06 AM
Christians: Democracy has its roots in Christianity
1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silent in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And so on.
That's in the new testament of the feckin' bible. It doesn't sound very democratic to me. It took nearly two thousand years to overcome this backward mentality.
Posted by: Ray Moscow | September 8, 2009 10:12 AM
Looks like the forces of freethought have pushed the "Ja" vote from 90% all the way to 91%. Go, Pharyngulates!
Posted by: Jacob | September 8, 2009 10:17 AM
Man first the Swedish give us Ingmar Bergman and now this, it's too much.
Posted by: wazza | September 8, 2009 10:21 AM
The tallest natural point in Denmark is called Himmelbakke (heaven hill, roughly). It's less than 200 metres high.
As to language... written down, it's actually pretty close to english; only a few minor grammatical differences and a lot less words from French. Spoken, however... the Danes have this thing they do where they take the first consonant of the first word in the sentence, then the first vowel, then the end of the last word in the sentence, and that's all they pronounce.
Posted by: Matt Heath | September 8, 2009 10:24 AM
There's probably a sense in which (constitutional/liberal/representative) democracy did depend on Christianity to take the form it has. I'm even prepared to accept that the same is true (as is sometimes claimed) of the institution of science in its modern form.
But really, so fucking what? It's obvious that institutions are going to develop in a way contingent on the society they develop in; I don't think many Pharynuloids need Christians to tell them "everything is the way it is because of how it got like that". So Western institutions we care about probably did develop in ways affected by Christianity but only as much by other important factors in European society. I'm sure the argument can be made that democracy and science couldn't have the exact form they do if it hadn't been for deep-rooted sexism or the Atlantic slave trade but that's no reason to keep those things.
Posted by: JRBendixen | September 8, 2009 10:24 AM
Hi Anna S
I have made an rough translation of the article you mention.
In the short time I spent with google translate and my own limited editing and language skills, I believe that the authors would not blame me for a missing their points. So feel free to thrash their ignoramus reasoning.
By the way, I´m a dane and I despise religion and it´s followers.
So here goes nothing, or rather 15 minutes of translation :)
We who write this article, confess to a personal faith and are active in various churches and communities.
We are all accustomed to critical thinking and have not experienced that we have been forced upon a belief. We are not advocates of religious coercion. Religious faith can be abused.
This also applies to Christianity. In collaboration with the political power they have large churches too often guilty of great excesses, not just against non-believers, but also against religious minorities, both Christian and non Christians.
This applies to Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans and Puritans.
Experience is that Christianity very easily corrupted as it goes hand in hand with state power. Therefore, we in some sense we also want a secular state.
We join with like the idea that "laws must be formulated by democratic institutions, and the standard legislative norm must be governed by critical thought and free argument in open conversations."
But we also want to stress that the Western community of law and democratic system has a clear standpoint and a historical source in a Christian view of humanity and its emphasis on everyone's equal worth.
The danish secular humanists will create a conflict between faith and reason, between superstition and enlightenment. We want to emphasize Christianity's historical role in development, science, culture and the human community.
We believe it is undeniable that Christianity has been the basis for the development has happened in the West and the rest of the world, and we mean that a departure from Christian values leads to a spiritual, legal and cultural decline, which further perspective will have economic and social consequences.
Like the authors, it is manifest to us ideologically anxious that religious freedom is not abused to the detriment of the rights of others.
We also believe that it is true that children in state-assisted independent schools through the compulsory curriculum receive a common base of knowledge.
On the other hand, it is one of the parents' rights guaranteed by law to educate their children in accordance with their faith and their values.
That Christians, Muslims, Jews and Buddhists does not make it any less stranger than that atheists, agnostics and humanists or that people with a socialist, communist, liberal or bourgeois sentiments upbring their children in the values they believe.
Part of adult maturation is to learn verify, reject, confirm and elaborate.
The manifest makes religion guilty for 70,000 women worldwide die each year due to illegal abortions, further more that homosexuals are persecuted, that stem cell research is hindered, and that 'the right to a dignified death "is limited.
It may just found that the sentensagtige(?) tone of this manifesto and in large parts of the public debate to prevent a casual exchange.
It would otherwise be reasonable to discuss whether it really is compatible with a humane society that millions of unborn are killed each year by full legal abortions, and human fetes´ become our guinea pigs.
There should also be a debate about the validity of marriages between persons of the same sex without any opponents accused of homophobic tendencies and to sympathize with those who resort to violence against homosexuals.
For the 12 signatories of the manifesto are both Catholics and evangelical Christian religious 'forces that would turn the clock back'.
The consequence of this should be so that Martin Luther King in his struggle against apartheid and Mother Teresa in its solidarity with India's poorest are backwards minded.
Posted by: Eamon Knight | September 8, 2009 10:28 AM
Christians: Democracy has its roots in Christianity)
I'm not even going to try to read that article, but broadly speaking this is almost trivially true. For 1600 years, European history and Christian history were virtually synonymous, therefore almost everything -- good or bad -- that happened in Europe can be in some degree credited/blamed on Christianity. However:
1) A significant fraction of those who came up with modern democracy were anything but orthodox, so I suspect the claim is exaggerated and self-serving (though it might be true in the specific case of Denmark).
2) What of it? These appeals to history (of which we see plenty on this side of the pond) all seem to come with the implication that, should we abandon Christianity, all the good things that (putatively) came out of that history will fall apart. This is obvious bullshit: if we like democracy and the other basic freedoms we enjoy, why wouldn't we keep them for their own sake? We don't require some divine sanction (derived from a dubious cherry-picking of religious tradition) to tell us what's obviously good for us.
Posted by: Blmstrjohn | September 8, 2009 10:29 AM
Christianity/religion has a completely different view in scandinavia,
Christianity is the "common" religion (state-church is the most obvious reason) with basically no more basis than going to church when there's:
A) Wedding of a relative/friend/etc
B) Baptism
C) Christmas
D) Funerals
Other than this i believe most Scandinavians simply don't care that much (or at least until recently) or haven't given it much thought, until recently where the subject has been quite impossible to avoid (just fully so).
Posted by: FlameDuck | September 8, 2009 10:30 AM
Your Google failed in translating the title of the poll correctly. The correct translation is: 12 prominent Swedes call to arms, in a manifesto against religion, which they feel is too dominant a part of society. Do you agree?
Considering 15% of the population votes for the Ultra-Right Christo-Facist Nationalist Party (aka. Dansk Folkeparti) and has been governed by Liberal-Conservatives (now there's an oxymoron if there ever was one) nearly for the last decade, it's hard to see how anyone can consider Denmark Socialist, or "Politiken" a left-wing newspaper. You wouldn't be welcome. We don't exactly have a fantastic track record for hospitality towards foreigners, unless they're using our banks and financial institution to hide large sums of money from the US IRS.Regarding the language, don't worry about it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk
Posted by: JRBendixen | September 8, 2009 10:32 AM
I know you guys probably do not care, but the former post was my first, besides the the 6 times Mr. Meyers blog was lagged by you people when I hit post.
That said, you are all extremely funny and witty and I enjoy reading your post,even the creationists.
Creationist arguments = Benny Hill with words :)
Posted by: Rasmus Holm | September 8, 2009 10:36 AM
Danish is not that difficult. In fact there is a lot of Danish words in English.
Posted by: FlameDuck | September 8, 2009 10:41 AM
Democracy has its roots in the Magna Carta Libertatum, which is not generally considered a Christian document, although the Catholic Church did pay an important role in the events leading up to revolution which lead to England adopting the Magna Carta, they were on the side of the totalitarians (that is the monarchy).
Posted by: Newfie | September 8, 2009 10:41 AM
Ok, I voted. Anybody know what the woman is saying in the cartoon, on the right side of the page?
Posted by: AbbaDabba | September 8, 2009 10:43 AM
I've always thought the mere existence of ABBA is proof that there is no God. At least, not a benevolent one.
Posted by: Rasmus Holm | September 8, 2009 10:43 AM
#18
It is actually Himmelbjerget. Bjerg = Berg as in iceberg.
Just to show the link between words. Sky in Danish is cloud.
Posted by: CSBSH | September 8, 2009 10:46 AM
"After we had tried he spoke it. As far as we could hear the sounds he made had no correlation with the letters on the page."
Since I'm Swedish, I have no trouble at all understanding written Danish. But spoken Danish is a totally different thing; I barely understand a word.
Posted by: dersk | September 8, 2009 10:46 AM
Average elevation of Denmark: 31m. Average elevation of the Netherlands: 11m. Pikers. In order to get a decent highest peak, we (well, they - I'm a damn furriner here in Amsterdam) had to grant township status to a former Carribbean colony.
And to claim that 'democracy' is in any way dependent on Christianity is of course stupid.
Posted by: James Brown | September 8, 2009 10:49 AM
Here is a poll more worthy of our attention.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/10103521
The good guys are loosing badly (for now)
Posted by: Andersen | September 8, 2009 10:50 AM
Do not forget that Denmark is a small country ... about 5 mill. people. The poll is for a population about the population and "diversity" of Manhattan....
Posted by: FlameDuck | September 8, 2009 10:51 AM
"If you've fucked op, they're rather practical, Helle" - a stab at Helle Thorning-Schmidt, the leader of the Social Democrat party. The title of the cartoon is "Hidden Agenda", it's basically an in-joke about one of the hot political topics of the unspecified time period, whether or not the state gets to outlaw religious garments, providing those religious garments are limited to the Islamic faith.Posted by: Stewart | September 8, 2009 10:54 AM
I've just come back from living in DK for a year (in the windy back-and-beyond of Nordvestjylland), and I echo the language things ;). I think I have a reasonable handle on reading/writing Danish, but as far as understanding Danes speaking it................
@23: I think it's all relative. We have a conservative party here in the UK, but they're probably more liberal than the left-wing in the USA. I've just spent a year paying 38% on my income - that must account for a fair bit of socialism!
I thought I was very well welcomed to Denmark, and received a lot of help from the local kommune, who employ people full time towards helping the integration of foreigners.
Posted by: Ragutis | September 8, 2009 11:00 AM
And it's going to stay that way. That poll is quite old and has almost certainly been botted by fundies. It's got 16.5 million votes, FFS. PZ has a lot of readers, but not that many.
Posted by: Newfie | September 8, 2009 11:03 AM
thanks, FlameDuck.
Posted by: Michael Eybye | September 8, 2009 11:04 AM
Why, exactly, would PZ not be welcome in Denmark? I'm quite sure that he'd be more than welcome. That lousy trackrecord towards foreigners we have here in Denmark is sadly more directed towards people from the middle-east or africa.
Certainly there will be some idiots who would rail against PZ, but more because he's american than because he's a foreigner. You can find such idiots everywhere in the world.
No, I'm certain that PZ would be more than welcome in Denmark. In fact, come on over any time you want.
Posted by: FastLane | September 8, 2009 11:07 AM
Could be worse. I live in Kansas. (But, I want it to be known, I am definitely not from here!)Cheers
Posted by: Matt Heath | September 8, 2009 11:10 AM
Flameduck@26:
Really?That sounds like the Whiggiest bit of Whig history ever. I mean it ended up being important on what turned out to be the path to constitutional democracy but Magna Carta was the victory of aristocracy over absolutism; democracy would have been abhorrent to the barons pushing for it. And it's a pretty arbitrary start point; you could has well have gone back to the Witangemot or forward to the (more convincingly democratic) Levelers.
Posted by: amphiox | September 8, 2009 11:23 AM
"I mean it ended up being important on what turned out to be the path to constitutional democracy but Magna Carta was the victory of aristocracy over absolutism; democracy would have been abhorrent to the barons pushing for it"
One of the interesting historical patterns is how when one elitist group succeeds in wresting power away from the even more elitist group above, it often sets in motion a chain of events that ends up with the next group below eventually doing the same thing to them.
(Taking this pattern to its logical conclusion, civilization will eventually be ruled by household pets.)
Posted by: Frank | September 8, 2009 11:30 AM
Of course Danish is difficult; only a few million people can speak it. Chinese, on the other hand must be very easy.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | September 8, 2009 11:35 AM
Well in the UK cats are now more numerous as pets than dogs are. It is clear, we will soon be ruled by cats.
Posted by: Eamon Knight | September 8, 2009 11:41 AM
One of the interesting historical patterns is how when one elitist group succeeds in wresting power away from the even more elitist group above, it often sets in motion a chain of events that ends up with the next group below eventually doing the same thing to them.
(Taking this pattern to its logical conclusion, civilization will eventually be ruled by household pets.)
I take it you don't have cats? If you did, you would realize this has already happened. (And I for one welcome our new feline overlords, and remind them we can be very useful at opening food tins, pre-warming beds and comfy chairs, tossing small toys, etc....)
Posted by: Meyrick Kirby | September 8, 2009 11:41 AM
I can just imagine Thor, Woden and Saxnot laughing at God.
Posted by: Anders | September 8, 2009 11:43 AM
Even Danes have problems understanding other Danes, if they're from different parts of the country.
As for the manifesto, I doubt it will have any effect at all. In Sweden, religion has virtually no effect (outside Jönköping), and outside Sweden no one who has any influence will read it, or care if they do.
The only such thing in Sweden I've seen that actually had any effect, was when several prominent people got together to protest that a TV station had started dubbing The Simpsons. Aside from that, it's just wasted paper/electrons
Posted by: Pacal
|
September 8, 2009 11:59 AM
Since I was the first kid to wears a Disco Sucks teashirt in my School I must mention here that my hatred of ABBA easily exceeds my hatred of virtually everything else. It is so sad that a good cause is being dragged down by being associated with ABBA, which is guilty of myriad musical and fashion crimes against humanity. Although I must agree that ABBA is very good evidence against the existence of God.
To conclude:
ABBA sucked, sucks and will suck now and forever world without end.
Posted by: Magnus | September 8, 2009 12:00 PM
Ahh, Danish, the language of drunken scandinavians. Try rather Norwegian, it's almost Danish, only the spoke language is coherent, logical and fairly similar to the written version. Also, Norway is in contrast the opposite of flat. Actually most of the country is uninhabitated because og the numerous mountains. Oh, and did I mention we have a left wing, social-democratic government. Oh, and we're rich too.
Posted by: mikespeir | September 8, 2009 12:02 PM
Hey, don't be dissing ABBA! And you, Pascal, are eee-vil! We ABBAists are still working on a Hell, I'll warn you. (Let you know when it's done.)
Posted by: FlameDuck | September 8, 2009 12:09 PM
I fail to see how being from a country of overt racists is an improvement on being from a country who hates foreigners in general. In either case Denmark has had an immigrant stop since 1972, so no, he wouldn't be welcomed. He might be tolerated, but that's not the same thing as welcomed. Absolutely! That's besides the point. The Magna Carta established the Rule of Law, without which Democracy would be impossible. That it was achieved with violence and for selfish reasons, is just human nature. Well you're entitled to your opinion of course, but I don't see the establishment of Rule of Law as neither insignificant or arbitrary.Posted by: AdamK | September 8, 2009 12:16 PM
The vikings who moved to Iceland took all the sensible language with them.
Posted by: Anders | September 8, 2009 12:20 PM
Iceland has had a functioning democracy since around 930CE (before it became a christian nation, so no, no christianity there either), the Magna Carta was signed in 1215.
And that's not even talking about the ancient greeks (who incidentally also weren't christian).
Now, you may counter by saying something about how not everyone could vote so it wasn't a real democracy - but that would mean that England didn't become a democracy until 1918, and the US not until 1920 - just in case you want to make that objection
BTW, is there anything less democratic than the christian institutions? I don't think the pope is elected. Certainly his Bishops aren't
Posted by: ThSt | September 8, 2009 12:21 PM
I do wonder why foreigners always label Bjorn Ulvaeus as a "former member of ABBA". Isn't he still a member? Rather "a member of former ABBA" in that case.
Well, I have lived in both Denmark and Sweden and to make it short: Sweden is mainly influenced by secularism and discussions concern secularism and even more secularism. Denmark is mainly influenced by christianity and discussions concern the "threat" of islam (as if islam would be a bigger threat than christianity...!). Sweden has come far further down the road to secularism compared to Denmark that still has a state church, children say prayer in school, the church in Denmark is responsible for registering all newborns (also atheists and muslims have to go to the church to register their children) etc etc.
Posted by: Anders | September 8, 2009 12:29 PM
Well, so does Sweden. Every citizen is born into it, and it wasn't until recently that it was at all possible to quit it. Almost everyone gets married in a church and everyone get buried in a church cemetary (with very few exceptions, e.g. jews who maintain their own graveyards)
Almost all kids get confirmed as well, at age 15. Not that it matters, though. As far as I remember, all it mattered to me and my friends was the gifts we got afterwards from our families.
This is the main difference, I think. In Sweden, it is so ingrained that church is only for those special occasions. If anyone at my school ever dreamed of going to church on a regular Sunday, when it wasn't for a wedding or a funeral, he would have been made fun of for the rest of his natural life.
This is excluding the pentecostal "free church" sects, but thankfully there aren't too many of those.
Posted by: Draken | September 8, 2009 12:36 PM
#23:
Considering 15% of the population votes for the Ultra-Right Christo-Facist Nationalist Party (aka. Dansk Folkeparti) and has been governed by Liberal-Conservatives (now there's an oxymoron if there ever was one) nearly for the last decade, it's hard to see how anyone can consider Denmark Socialist
Therefore, I wrote 'socialist' between quotes, mocking the view Americans, especially the right-wing ones, seem to have of Scandinavia.
...or "Politiken" a left-wing newspaper.
I do not understand the relation between the Danish electorate and the independent newspaper Politiken; I didn't make that connection at least. Politiken is generally perceived as moderately leftwing (on par with the Dutch Volkskrant I'd say), which is reflected in its self-ironical ad campaign.
Posted by: tim Rowledge | September 8, 2009 12:39 PM
One of the key points of the Magna Carta is that it made a serious crack in the idea of rule by divine right. Which was in itself something I suspect we could blame on religion; before the appearance of christianity in britain the rule was mostly by the saxon tradition which I understand to have been somewhere between popular consent and best-bully gets the baubles. Hmmph. Sounds rather like life today.
And for what it's worth I quite like ABBA's music. It may have something to do with it being the soundtrack to my teenage love-life.
Posted by: rbieri | September 8, 2009 12:42 PM
"BTW, is there anything less democratic than the christian institutions? I don't think the pope is elected. Certainly his Bishops aren't"
And one half of the population is excluded from both voting and being elected. So, I agree, not what we'd call a democratic institution.
To those worried because of the excessive flatness of their country: come to Switzerland, no such problems here.
Posted by: Sili
|
September 8, 2009 12:56 PM
Danish really isn't all that difficult. You just need to learn to read IPA (no, not India Pale Ale, sorry):
/əːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːːː/
That's it!
Actually, Danish bishops are elected. I think by the members of the parish councils, but frankly I don't give a damn. There was even some sort of controversy about the recent election of a new bishop of Copenhagen - not that I have any clue what about. It's not like I read Politiken in depth.
Posted by: Mike Olson | September 8, 2009 1:23 PM
Swedish poll? Sven Gordowski?
Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | September 8, 2009 1:28 PM
Not to mention that Danish and English are both Germanic languages. So there will be a lot cognates in both languages that traces it's roots to proto-Germanic.
Posted by: Moq | September 8, 2009 1:30 PM
Though religion is rarely a theme in Denmark, there are still a few problems worth mentioning. One is the funded state church, another is the status of Christianity in the educational system. Especially the public school curriculum.
Recently, a couple of Danish authors without scientific knowledge published a response to the new atheist movement. The translated title is something like "Godless Brains - A showdown with the new atheists". Rather pathetic by all accounts, probably because they have little understanding of the actual context, ie. the creationist threat that reinvigorated the response by prominent atheists. They are an endangered species in these parts, and mostly vanilla lunatics that no one cares about.
All in all, there are minor issues worthy of continued vigilance, but nothing compared to situations elsewhere in the world.
Posted by: JRBendixen | September 8, 2009 1:36 PM
"Danish bishops are elected"
No no no that is all wrong, in accordance with the danish language they get married to the church(god). And the religious danes mostly believe that god is an old man with a white beard. So no wonder they had to leave the catholic church, he he he.
I personally would not mind some man on man action in the danish churches :)
The marrying thingy is a play on the danish word "vielse". Quite a bit of our words have several meanings, to be true it is a terrible mess :)
Posted by: Creature of the Universe | September 8, 2009 1:57 PM
Six cheers for the twelve apostles of Humanism!!!!!!
When do they go out into the world to proclaim the good news manifesto? (or did they just do that via the internets?)
Posted by: Bendiks | September 8, 2009 2:05 PM
Great Norwegian parody on the Danish language:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk
Posted by: blacklens
|
September 8, 2009 2:16 PM
Sometimes I'm quite proud of being Swedish :-)
But it bothers me that I have had to change my opinion about Björn Ulveus... I don't like ABBA but I'm starting to like Björn.
@Anders #54 - Actually, it's not true that you are born into The Swedish Church. It used to be like that, but since 1996 you become a member by being baptized. And since 2000 it's no longer considered a state church.
Posted by: Nemo | September 8, 2009 2:20 PM
Yes, the pope is elected. The papacy might even be the oldest still-extant elected office in the world. But it's an election by the College of Cardinals (themselves appointed by previous popes), not the broader clergy or laity.
Posted by: Bent | September 8, 2009 2:22 PM
Ahh, yes. We Norwegians really are quite smug, aren't we...:) Although to be honest we've been pumped kinda full of it from our government, too, with all the UN-scales of best country to live in year after year, our obnoxious oil-billions and what not. But we're only "lillebror" (little brother) in scandinavia after all, except maybe for the money.
I salute the Swedes for this manifesto which I sadly expect we norwegians never would have had the cojones to put forward ourselves...
We're lucky for our position to set forth an example of a well-functioning secular society in the world. And in this we should lose the smugness :-)
Posted by: Anders | September 8, 2009 2:29 PM
@65: wow, I didn't know any of that had changed. Shows how much attention I pay to it, I guess :) I don't recall seeing a great deal about it in the papers or on TV either. Weird
@66: No, the pope isn't elected, he is part of the apostolic succession, appointed by the holy ghost (in practice: a group of bishops gather in a room in the Vatican and decide which of them will be best for their future wealth and well being, but in theory it is by order of senior management on Cloud #54, third floor)
Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | September 8, 2009 2:37 PM
Skandinavisch Spreche?!
I think English speakers should focus on either Dutch or German. They are easier for us to understand.
JA! Wir können Deutsch sprechen!
Posted by: secularguy | September 8, 2009 2:44 PM
Anders,
Sweden's former state church has been former since the year 2000, and (according to Swedish Wikipedia) citizens stopped being born into the church in 1996. Quitting the church has been possible since 1860, and since 1951 you could even do it without joining some other religious denomination.
(But there still are various remnants of the Church of Sweden's special status, such as the constitutional demand for the monarch to be of the ”pure evangelical faith”. When the Crown Princess is wed next year, the ceremony will be officiated by ”the Archbishop”, of the still somewhat state church.)
Posted by: Elwood Herring | September 8, 2009 2:48 PM
Late to this thread (as usual), love that first comment.
Gra: I take it that's your face I can see on the horizon then?
(Actually I'm in England but I couldn't resist posting that)
Posted by: secularguy | September 8, 2009 2:49 PM
Oops, I see I should have reloaded the page before replying ...
Posted by: David Richardson | September 8, 2009 3:01 PM
Perhaps you'd like to try to learn a little Swedish. Try this site:
http://files.slayradio.org/mastering_swedish_-_lesson_3.mp3
The incidence of confirmation amongst young people is down to just over 50% (from about 70% twenty years ago). Young people get confirmed for the presents they get from their grandparents … but that's the last time most of them set foot in a church. They're also closing churches down all over the country because there aren't enough parishioners left to keep them going.
One of my students told me a story which she swears is true from her parish (near Jönköping, which is in the nearest thing Sweden has to a Bible belt), which I just have to share with you.
Sweden has been ordaining women priests for a long time now, but there are still plenty of pockets of resistance to working with women priests. However, the Swedish Church has made it a condition of employment to work with women, which puts some of the misogynist priests in a difficult position. In the parish in question, they needed to appoint a new priest, so the old guard fixed the short list so that it only had male priests on it. They chose a candidate who seemed like he had the right sort of opinions, and waited for him to take up his post.
In Sweden, however, what with very generous protection for workers (still, just about) it can take quite a long time between appointment and someone actually taking up the post, and in the meantime the guy underwent a sex change operation. So when she turned up for work, the old guard of anti-women priests had rather a shock …
Posted by: Kristjan Wager | September 8, 2009 3:21 PM
Himmelbjerget is, with its 147m, not anywhere near the highest point in Denmark. Currently the highest natural point is considered Møllehøj (Mill hill) which is 170.86m
The tallest man-made point is the Rø Sender, which is an antenna on Bornholm which reaches 431m above the sea.
Posted by: Anders | September 8, 2009 3:22 PM
secularguy (#70),
Well, 1952 is relatively recently, considering how long the country has been a democracy, and especially considering we've had protected freedom of speech in the constitution since 1732. It just doesn't mesh
Posted by: shonny | September 8, 2009 3:30 PM
Hoi, Danish is not a language, it is a throat disease that badly affects pronunciation so that the spoken language sounds like the Danes speak with a hot potato in their mouth.
If only they could learn to pronounce it like SOME of us Norwegians do . . .
Posted by: eddie | September 8, 2009 3:43 PM
I understand that scotLand had a democratic history similar to that of iceLand, until we were invaded from the south.
Not to blame the english for this: before the DEB's military ambitions came the insidious child abusers; mirren, mungo and columba.
Also, I take the points on magna carta being both a self-serving aristo charter (moving from absolute fascism to fascirm by comittee) but that it was the first (at least for britain) of many steps on that road; the establishment of law over whim.
Wasn't it christian 'saints' that destroyed greek democracy also? And finally, I don't much like abba (nothing to do with it being a hebrew word, that's kinda religious) but have them to thank for us winning a case of beer in a pub quiz. The teams were given a sheet with a number of sets of initials on it and just asked what the initials were of.
Only a small number of teams saw that they were abba song titles ;-)
Posted by: freelunch | September 8, 2009 4:29 PM
sentensagtige?
Sensational (as in overwrought, overstated)
Does Denmark let people of Danish ancestry who have their most common last name move there?
Posted by: Michael Eybye | September 8, 2009 5:12 PM
"I fail to see how being from a country of overt racists is an improvement on being from a country who hates foreigners in general."
Noone said it was any kind of an improvement, far from it in fact. What I did say was that besides from a small number of idiots noone is really going to care if PZ were to move here. Heck, I'd wager that most would think "cool, an actual intelligent american, a professor even, wow"
Or something to that effect.
No, it's my experience that most danes are quite hospitable and welcoming towards foreigners except, sadly, when said foreigners don't look like us.
Such an attitude is really quite disgusting and I have to admit it does make me a bit ashamed of my fellow danes.
Posted by: Varangian | September 8, 2009 6:38 PM
@54: I saw that others have corrected your obsolete info on the state church in Sweden, but there's more:
"Almost everyone gets married in a church and everyone get buried in a church cemetary"
Church weddings were only 49% in 2006, and mostly because it is traditional. A minority of the couples had a sincere belief in God. Burials are still a religious affair (90%+), but secular burials are on the rise. The cemeteries are for Christians, Moslems and atheists.
"Almost all kids get confirmed as well, at age 15. Not that it matters, though. As far as I remember, all it mattered to me and my friends was the gifts we got afterwards from our families."
In 2008, just 35% of the 15 year olds in Sweden were confirmed, and most only out of tradition, for meeting friends, or for the presents. A minority did it because of a belief in God. The number is slowly dropping.
"This is the main difference, I think. In Sweden, it is so ingrained that church is only for those special occasions. If anyone at my school ever dreamed of going to church on a regular Sunday, when it wasn't for a wedding or a funeral, he would have been made fun of for the rest of his natural life."
Yup, the big holidays see more people visiting church, otherwise attendance is so low in some parishes that several parishes hold services in one church in order to have enough church-goers to make it worthwhile to keep open on Sundays, alternating between the parishes.
"This is excluding the pentecostal "free church" sects, but thankfully there aren't too many of those."
The evangelicals are usually more fanatic and close-knit, but as you say, they are basically a fringe movement with minimal influence.
As for the Danish language, some dialects are rather easy to understand, while others are nothing more than a widespread speech impediment. The interesting thing with Danish, Norwegian and Swedish languages are that they are distinct, yet in their written form quite easy to read for someone from a Nordic country. In their spoken form, it is usually quite possible to understand each other, especially for Swedes and Norwegians.
Posted by: Rolan le Gargéac | September 8, 2009 6:48 PM
Anders #46
Is that like dogging ?
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
|
September 8, 2009 6:56 PM
I've always had a strong respect for Denmark because of how the Danes smuggled almost all of the Danish Jews into Sweden during World War II.
King Christian X symbolized the Danish reaction to the German occupation of Denmark. There's a story, perhaps apocryphal, that the Germans would not allow the Danish flag to be flown over Christian's palace. Christian was told that if the flag was raised a German soldier would be sent to take it down. The king replied that if that was the case he would send a Danish soldier to raise it again. The Germans said they would shoot that soldier and the king replied, "the Danish soldier will be me." And throughout the war the Danish flag flew over the palace.
Posted by: dc | September 8, 2009 7:46 PM
Are there any famous Swedes who are not former members of Abba? Just asking.
Posted by: Rolan le Gargéac | September 8, 2009 7:54 PM
Tis Himself #82
So ?
SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 24 Danmark (Danes)
11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nordland
Posted by: Monado | September 8, 2009 9:24 PM
The Magna Carta was the thin edge of the wedge. Once the barons forced the monarch to accept some limitations on absolute, God-given supremacy, it was only a matter of a several hundred more years, struggle, executions, civil wars, unrest, and and suffering.
One of the best protections that our forerunners achieved* was the law of habeas corpus,. The corpus is not a carcase but a body of evidence, which meant that authorities had to have a case against someone to imprison them. Unfortunately, the U.S. has thrown it away in the name of security.
*If we can't be blamed for slavery, invasions, aggression, and genocide perpetrated by our ancestors a few generations ago, we certainly can't take credit for the invention of civilized behavior even earlier.
Posted by: FlameDuck | September 9, 2009 3:51 AM
And before long, we'll have to do it once again, except this time it will be Muslims, and it will be of our own accord. Alfred Nobel? 2 reasons.1) Soviet-fobia. The soviet union had recently invaded Finland, and there was no indication Stalin had any intentions of stopping.
2) It was wartime, jobs were scarce and the Wehrmacht paid comparatively well. Freikorps Dänemark did not fight for the Nazis. They fought against the communists.
Posted by: Peiter | September 9, 2009 6:01 AM
@20 & 78
No, "sentensagtig" means "abrupt", as if decreeing sentences (articles, statements) of faith. A nice tu quoque right there...
As a Dane, I see the debate over immigrants as centered on two issues.
One is the Muslim scare, which I think has a certain justification, but which at this point is far overwrought. Probably due to the voter potential it brings. Thankfully, more important issues have pushed this one down in the voters' priorities.
Second is the problem of combining open borders and extremely generous unemployment benefits. Danish voters have chosen to close the borders rather than Treasury coffers. I would prefer it the other way around, but alas...
However, it is fairly easy for skilled workers to gain a work permit, not least if coming from Europe or North America.
Language-wise, Danish pronunciation is strange, since we have several consonants sounds not present in other languages, including a soft 'd' almost like the English 'th' and soft 'g's. Additionally, Danish has many old spellings, which are now pronounced differently -- just like English. Unlike Norwegian & Swedish, Danish doesn't have a "singing tone" to it, which makes it more like the other Germanic languages. Danish grammar is much easier than German and pretty similar to English. Like English, Danish only employs noun declension in the possessive case.
Posted by: Martin Andersen | September 9, 2009 9:49 AM
Regarding Denmark being governed by "liberal-conservatives" and it supposedly being an oxymoron:
The current government is staffed by members of two distinct parties and supported on most issues by a third.
One is 'Venstre' (which ironically means "left"), a nominally liberal party. To this poster, Venstre seems more interested staying in power than they do representing liberal ideology so you have to look really carefully to find any differences between them and the socialdemocrats who are currently in opposition. This is amazing considering we have the highest tax in the world. One could say we are 67% communist towards our best earners and the socialdemocrats would like to introduce an additional 5% tax on those that earn more than ~$195,000/year. Add roughly another percent if you are still a member of the Danish National Church.
The other party is 'Det Konservative Folkeparti' (The Conservative People's Party). I can't think of anything nice to say about these guys probably because I never quite understood wtf conservatism is that is different from a handbrake on societal development. So realizing my probable bias I'm just going to stop here.
TL;DR: It's not an "oxymoronic" liberal-conservative party governing Denmark.
Posted by: Kristjan Wager | September 9, 2009 11:02 AM
It should perhaps be pointed out that Venstre is liberal in the European sense rather than the US sense. Liberals are considered right-winged in Europe.
I happen to be liberal in both the European and US sense, but I guess that that just shows the differences between the political climates that I can belong to a right-winged political ideology in the Europe while at the same time belong to a left-winged ideology in the US.
Posted by: Mads Grymer Ejstrup | September 9, 2009 12:49 PM
Just to make things clear about the danish state church. No one i born into the church, but you do become a member (and ahve to pay church tax) if you are babtised ion the church. Luckily a have smart, leftish parents who did not babtize me so i am not a meber of the church and do not pay for it. I am all for a seperation of state and church, but i think most Danes see them selfes as Christians, sort of. I write "sort of" because Religion plays a very small role in most Danes lives, most people just goes to church at Christmas (which funny enough is not called Christ-mas in Denmark but "Jul"=wheel, the heathen name). It's kind of funny Denmark, Sweden and England is some of the least religious western countries and all have or at least until recently had a state church. I'm not exactly shure what conclutions should be drawn from that. Oh, and the key to understanding Danish is that the last syllabel of most words is implied not spoken. Think about that...
Posted by: Mads Grymer Ejstrup | September 9, 2009 1:01 PM
Forgot to comment on the paper Politiken. It's is not a leftish paper i the Danish sence. Traditioanlly it has been linked to the party called De Radikale Venstre, which is a moderate liberal party. Funny thing is, if you translate their name directly to english it sound like something else: The Radical Left. The reason for the name is that the party was founded by members of the danish liberal party called venstre (=left).
So why is the liberal party called Venstre (=left) when it is not a socialist party. Because when Denmark introduced parlamenterism we had a two-party system. A liberal party and a conservative party. In the parlament The Conservative party was placed in the right side of the hall and the liberal was placed at the left side, therefor it was called "Left" and the other party was called "Right".
Now, back to Politiken. The paper is now an independant paper, but the views expressed in the papers editorials are still moderate social-liberal wich is regarded as the middle in panish politics.
Posted by: ihedenius | September 9, 2009 1:52 PM
Richard #73
That's hilarious. And swedish, I can see that happening.
Posted by: gaffa | September 9, 2009 3:58 PM
There is an obvious selection effect here - I don't think the poll result accurately reflects the views of the Danish population at large.
Posted by: ThSt | September 9, 2009 5:07 PM
Anders!! I sure hope you are not Swedish because your knowledge about your own country is then so low that it scares me.
Sweden does not have a state church. The state church was abolished in 1996 and no one is born into it. Wasn't until recently that you could leave church? Well, if you consider 1951 as 'not until recently'...
The majority of all marriages are secular in Sweden. I believe the most recent stats show that 44% of all weddings are church weddings. Trend downgoing since decades.
Confirmation for 15 year olds is def not 'majority' and has not been for several decades. It's around 30% of all 15 year olds that are confirmed, most of them to receive presents or simply because the church in a desperat act to save itself from death nowadays offer confirmation as part of a trip to the big amusement parks... Trend downgoing.
Posted by: Fedor | September 10, 2009 2:22 AM
Uhm, is it too late to point out that the poll question is translated wrongly?
It actually reads:
Also, as a Dutchman who moved and has been living in Denmark for more than 10 years, I cannot help chuckling about the many comments proclaiming Denmark is sooo flat! Are you kidding me!? Coming from Holland I experience Denmark as being extremely hilly. Back in the days when I started out as a postman, I used to curse those blasted Danish hills.
Anyways, it is true that Danish is a difficult language to learn, but not because of the grammar, which is almost easier than English. For one thing, verbs are not bent at all except for across tenses! As many pointed out, the real difficulty of Danish lies in the pronunciation, which is worse than French in discrepancy with the written word, and the idiomatic expressions that dominate to an extreme degree.
Although Dutch is a west-germanic language like English or Plattdeutsch, written Danish is actually easily learned by a Dutchman. The reason for this is that Danish has been heavily influenced by Plattdeutsch (and conversely, English by Normandic French). I took me a few months to learn the basics and maintain a simple conversation.
However, it took me more than a year to understand what people where actually saying back!
Posted by: shaxanth27 | September 10, 2009 3:50 AM
Wow, that just makes me feel so warm and giddy!
Posted by: Gustaf | September 10, 2009 9:45 AM
Danish is not complicated at all. The grammar is similar to other Germanic languages, and the pronunciation is really simple: wherever there's a vowel, you use all possible vowel sounds at the same time.