…and this is a 
If you're going to build a massive con to defraud people out of $50 million, you want to pick your marks carefully. You want people who are gullible, don't demand a lot of evidence, and are willing to go along with you as long as it takes to milk them dry, as long as you promise bliss. Where would you go to find a large number of such people? It's obvious: go to church, like Tri Energy did.
Like those caught up in other get-rich scams -- from Bernard Madoff's $65 billion Ponzi scheme, which initially snared wealthy Jews, to an alleged $4.4 million fraud aimed at deaf people -- Tri Energy's investors had something in common. Many were Mormons and born-again Christians who shared dreams and prayers on nightly conference calls. They vowed to use the profits for charitable works and kept raising funds, at times taking out second mortgages, draining retirement accounts and recruiting relatives.
No one deserves the fleecing these victims got, though. Elderly people had their savings cleaned out; at least one committed suicide after he realized how thoroughly he had been ripped off.
Comments
Posted by: Richard Harris | September 2, 2009 10:35 AM
It almost makes me wish that there were a Satan & a Hell, to deal with these slimeballs.
Posted by: Timmy D | September 2, 2009 10:37 AM
Kinda funny that the ringleader was from Nigeria.
Posted by: Eric B | September 2, 2009 10:39 AM
How sad, how very sad. This is what happens though when the American public refuses to think critically, refuses to research claims, and who have UNSHAKABLE FAITH in the humans who proclaim to lead churches. Sad...makes me very sad.
Posted by: eddie | September 2, 2009 10:41 AM
The "There's one born every minute" thing always struck me as a case for safe, effective contraception.
And the real reason behind church opposition to same.
Posted by: John Morales | September 2, 2009 10:41 AM
[semi OOT]
I kind of wish the spammers that have been polluting dead threads here recently would realise this, and post on religious blogs instead.
I suspect that, other than providing noise (and enriching PZ), they achieve nothing.
Posted by: steve | September 2, 2009 10:46 AM
Got one of those recorded telemarketing calls last night. Apparently Benny Hinn and his "Miracle Crusade" is appearing at the Toronto Convention Centre next week. I'm sure there will be a lot of "ripe fruit" there.
Posted by: John | September 2, 2009 10:48 AM
I am not sure that I'd agree with the implication that it makes sense to go to a religious group for this. Plenty of the non-religious seem to be caught out by these schemes, too. Madoff's success amongst the Jewish community seemed more based on kinship ("He's one of our own, from our own society, he would not cheat us") than on the victims being religious. It's a new angle on an old prejudice, I suppose, to see Jews being cast as gullible in investment matters rather than the more normal insinuation that they are overly cautious with money.
As a former banker myself, the people with the least knowledge of what they were getting into were local governments, closely followed by academic institutions. Had I been out to bilk rather than assist, it could well have been a useful motto to say "if you want a gullible investor, one who you can milk dry, go for the academics, it's obvious wgere to go, go to college".
But, on the other hand, maybe such hackneyed generalisations are best left well alone...
Posted by: eljay | September 2, 2009 10:49 AM
@4, i think the expression in this case is 'there is one born again every minute'.
Posted by: Alec | September 2, 2009 10:52 AM
It's a shame that people would make themselves so vulnerable, and even more a shame that church's would fall for such a thing.
Though, if you ask me, Tri Energy should have went to the Vatican, I hear they're loaded and even dumber than anyone here. And plus all they'd have to do is show up on they're doorstep with a boy.
>_>
Posted by: raven | September 2, 2009 10:53 AM
These are called "affinity group scams". They are common in the fundie and Mormon communities. I even knew a Mormon who got into one and lost a few thousand dollars.
And BTW. If anyone is interested, we are developing a power source that taps into the vacuum energy of the universe, the zero point energy slurper. It is only open to qualified investors who have no idea what the quantum foam is but think it sounds really hi tech.
Posted by: eddie | September 2, 2009 10:54 AM
From today's Random Quote:
"Arguments may be evaded, but a fair and pertinent question creates no animosity, and must be answered, since silence is a confession of error or ignorance."
This is what I love about pharyngula and its commenters who live by the above.
PS - Did I miss any bells and/or whistles? I was asleep.
Posted by: Eamon Knight | September 2, 2009 10:54 AM
It's called "affinity fraud" and as #7 points out, religion per se isn't the only kind of "affinity" that can be exploited that way. Basically: send the right in-group social signals, and they'll hand you the keys to the vault.
Posted by: 800guy | September 2, 2009 10:56 AM
LOL, I just read this article: "False prophet, false profits?"
http://www.startribune.com/business/56117212.html?elr=KArksUUUycaEacyU
Then decided to check out what was going on here. It would be a lot funnier if it wasn't so sad. Apparently there's ripe fruit closer to your house PZ.
Posted by: Richard Eis | September 2, 2009 11:01 AM
I wonder how many were guilted into doing it by their fellows.
Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | September 2, 2009 11:02 AM
Exactly... and it's all the worse in this case because some of the claims were just beyond even the slightest bit of credulity, and even minor investigation would have led to the obvious conclusion of this being a scam... for example, from the article PZ linked:
Blind faith in the face of obvious and overwhelming evidence is not an admirable quality. The sooner everyone learns that, the better off we'll all be.
Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | September 2, 2009 11:06 AM
eljay #8
Heh! I'm totally stealing that and making it into a bumper sticker.
Posted by: Pascalle
|
September 2, 2009 11:08 AM
Religion and greed, the perfect combination :)
Posted by: Glen Davidson | September 2, 2009 11:09 AM
Religious scams are both common and profitable. There have been auto scams, "Baptist foundation" scams, and "gifting" schemes.
They are gullible, especially if you throw in religious claims. And often one gets cries of "persecution" when the perpetrators get caught.
Yes, many non-church members are also gullible. As a group, though, members of a religion are more credulous about pie-in-the-sky offers than is your average person.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: Jake | September 2, 2009 11:09 AM
The leaders of scams like these make a good argument for enforcing the death penalty, if you ask me.
Fraud for monetary gain is way too common and needs to be curtailed. It's bad enough our government wastes so much of our money and then we have to worry about psychopathic criminals like these people.
Posted by: shpx.ohfu | September 2, 2009 11:11 AM
If you believe you have to sport magic underwear to make your invisible sky friend happy, you'll believe anything.
Posted by: R. Schauer | September 2, 2009 11:12 AM
Religion: all fraud, all the time.
And I have the pleasure of watching my parents be hoodwinked and bamboozled in their golden years by Lutheran con men...fuck!
I know what some of you will say...I've tried, believe me...I've tried.
Posted by: dogmeatib | September 2, 2009 11:12 AM
The problem is, the same mindset that is unable (or unwilling) to critically analyze social/cultural stories presented to them as reality (religion) are also unable (or unwilling) to critically analyze financial stories presented to them as reality (scams). I'm not trying to claim that skeptics or rationalists are immune to such scams, but I would expect, based on their inherent nature, that those of us who are more evidence based, more skeptical and rational, are less likely to fall for such scams. Of course you always have that element of human nature that hates to admit we're wrong, were tricked, were stupid, etc., which will always be a wild card.
Posted by: jsoutofbiblepgs
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September 2, 2009 11:12 AM
That's just like my parents - at a time when I was 6 years old my parents went bankrupt after they took out a 2nd mortgage and threw 250k over time into the toilet called Scientology. They're not involved anymore, but they still insist that they had many "wins" in Scientology (at the emotional cost of their depressed children). They are obligated to believe it was beneficial, to hang on to the last threads of their sanity.
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | September 2, 2009 11:13 AM
Churches are great preying-grounds indeed. There was a thing on NPR the other day about how the subprime balloon lenders from Wells Fargo worked over the churches in Baltimore: they gave the church $250 for every referral, so the churches held open houses for the flock to come be fleeced. Nice!
Of course the conclusive "religion is a con game" epic win was scored by L Ron Hubbard. It'd be hard to top that, unless you invented the papacy or something.
Posted by: E.V. | September 2, 2009 11:15 AM
It's so easy to con money out of credulous people, à la Benny Hinn and Bob "The Farter" Tilton, with revivals and prayer lines but I couldn't. I'm not a sociopathic conman. I'd feel too guilty even though I know they want to be duped into ponying up their savings
to receive God's graceas a desperate act of magical thinking. The flock are so easily fleeced and ignore all warnings to potential shearers because of the God will protect them mindset. I hate to admit it but they get what they deserve.God puts his money in the First National Bank -Jesus saves! Jesus saves!
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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September 2, 2009 11:15 AM
IIRC, the babble requires triple reparations if you cheat others. A little babblical lesson should be used for those who commit fraud. Take away all their monies, included future monies, until they are fully repaid.
Posted by: TheExpatriate700 | September 2, 2009 11:17 AM
@John #7:
I don't think that PZ was trying to single out Jews, as you seem to be implying. He was merely pointing out that religions make a very good conduit for putting con artists in contact with gullible people. Note that he also mentioned Mormons, or were they cultivated through kinship ties as well?
Posted by: KI | September 2, 2009 11:22 AM
The believers get fleeced by their own, but the atheists are the immoral and unethical people? I laugh, and wish I had the lack of empathy needed to con the credulous. I wouldn't be poor no more, that's for shore!
Posted by: AwesomeRobot | September 2, 2009 11:26 AM
Con artists are Exhibit A in the case against "Faith" as a virtue.
Posted by: Susan | September 2, 2009 11:28 AM
Indeed. Whenever anyone tells me they want to "pray with" me, I run away like the wind; I know they're about to pick my pocket.Posted by: Glen Davidson | September 2, 2009 11:32 AM
Except that it seems that the religious angle was a substantial part of it, with Jewish charities (often at least pious) losing a large amount of money. Orthodox Jews are reportedly disproportionate victims of Madoff, although he himself seems not to be an Orthodox Jew.
And where does religion leave off from kinship, especially among ancient religions like Judaism? Of course it's kinship (Ponzi mostly took money from Italians), but religion is part of much kinship (Italians often identify with Catholicism), and especially as community for those not identified with any particular ethnicity. Judaism reinforces kinship, of course.
One recent Ponzi scheme (said to be $255 million) specifically targeted Orthodox Jews, more so than did Madoff. Seriously, they believe goofy things, as do fundy Xians and Muslims, and tend to believe their community and its claims rather than evidence--again, like fundy Xians and Muslims.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: R. Schauer | September 2, 2009 11:32 AM
Susan @ #30
Like Monty Python says...run away, run away!
--lachend--
Posted by: James Brown | September 2, 2009 11:34 AM
Darwin in action.
One of your posters (John #7) said it was a hackneyed generalization to go to church for you victims and it is. Hackneyed and true.
I have lived through several generations of schemes coming out of Salt Lake City and the Mormon community it’s obvious that these people are easily taken advantage of. After all they are convinced that they will get into heaven on the basis of sending 10% of their gross income to the insane leaders of the LDS church. It’s these same Mormons that when it’s pointed out to them that the church leaders are spending their money on a 1 ½ billion dollar shopping mall can make their minds think that it’s not actually their money being spent. It’s not there money because the insane leaders said it’s not – no other reason needed. This is going on right now, today, downtown SLC.
I actually think this is Darwin’s theory kicking into action. I know most don’t what to hear this but could it be that the money swindled from the Mormon widows and orphans’ actually is being put to better use buying luxury homes in Marina Del Ray.
In a Darwinian viewpoint is this money not going the right direction?
Posted by: JD | September 2, 2009 11:35 AM
Wow, this is even worse than what Rob Zombie is doing with his current film.
Posted by: tsg | September 2, 2009 11:35 AM
These scams work on people who believe them because they want them to be true. Religious groups attract those kinds of people. Many of them encourage that kind of behavior.
Posted by: Moggie | September 2, 2009 11:37 AM
The Mormon church started with a scam involving gold.
Posted by: BAllanJ | September 2, 2009 11:38 AM
These guys were the amateurs. The really good religious con men get the faithful to give them 10% of their gross pay for the rest of their lives and expect nothing back... plus a mention in their wills. And they get the marks to do the recruiting.
That's gotta be bigger than this nickel and dime stuff.
Posted by: Darren Garrison | September 2, 2009 11:39 AM
Apparently, they needed all that gold for publishing a super authentic edition of the Book of Mormon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates
In distributing the book in the form that it was originally given by the angel Moroni, it will be the most accurately Moronic version ever.
Posted by: John | September 2, 2009 11:45 AM
TheExpatriate700 wrote
Possibly, yes, but it could also have been that they were gullible. The point that I was making was that there are other explanations than religiosity for the apparent ease with which people can hit members of their own groups. I was also uncomfortable with any idea that says that we can define Jews' relationship with investments en masse, given how pernicious the other side of this is (as in "they run all the banks" or "you never see a poor jew")
If we think that these sorts of comments are best avoided, then I think that the sort in the article probably should be too.
Obviously, the religious tend to have one very clear area where they lack critical thinking skills. I don't see that we can then just assume that this carries on into all other areas of life. As I pointed out above, academics have seemed pretty clueless when it comes to investments, too, in my experience.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | September 2, 2009 11:47 AM
John (@7):
I think what's really at work is the uncritical faith in a strong heirarchical authority structure. That could be a military/paramilitary group, a business organization, a family or clan (or the societal extension of same), etc... anyplace where the scammer can affect the behavior of a large group by co-opting a much smaller group of leaders. Churches (and their equivalents) are certainly an obvious example.
Posted by: John | September 2, 2009 11:52 AM
James Brown wrote,
Er, what?
Darwin's theory of the origin of species through natural selection explains about how environmental pressures select for different characteristics in organisms, which leads to changed frequencies of these characteristics in subsequent generations.
This has absolutely nothing to do with people being conned out of money, nothing at all.
Posted by: Lynna | September 2, 2009 11:56 AM
James Brown @33
As far as I can tell from activity in my neighborhood, the latest multi-level marketing scheme running rampant in mormondom is Tahitian Noni Juice.
Here's a web article that chronicles some of the pyramid and MLM schemes -- and it mentions the Noni juice: http://noni.worldwidewarning.net/www/noni-utah-mormon-and-mlm
Excerpt from the linked article:
Posted by: Glen Davidson | September 2, 2009 11:58 AM
Here's a good NYT article on how religion/kinship led Orthodox Jews to be sheared by Madoff
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: Geds | September 2, 2009 11:58 AM
This has absolutely nothing to do with people being conned out of money, nothing at all.
Yeah, but think of the strawmen. Won't somebody please think of the strawmen?
They're just sitting there, with their big, straw eyes begging us to set them on fire. We almost have to agree with the stupid premise just for them. Anything else would be a form of strawbuse.
Posted by: Dania
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September 2, 2009 12:02 PM
What exactly has Darwin's theory to do with this?
Posted by: John | September 2, 2009 12:03 PM
Bill Dauphin wrote
I'd agree with that. I'd add to it, though, that academics seem like good targets too, which is what prompted me to write my first comment (i.e. viewing the article as someone from a plum group commenting on how foolish another plum group was). All too often, they have observed that they are good in one area, and made the assumption that therefore they are not good marks.
In reality, people who assume that they are not good marks tend to make good marks. Quite a few of my friends who remained in academia after I'd switched seem to get themselves regularly shafted when it comes to dealing with their money. It may not be to the extent of having everything stolen via fraud, but the failure to understand risk-adjusted returns, credit risk, liquidity premiums, counterparty risk or any of a host of other critical factors results in them retiring far poorer than they would have had they consulted an expert rather than relying on what their intuition told them.
An example of the Dunning-Kruger effect writ large in everyday life, I suppose.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | September 2, 2009 12:03 PM
Here's a good NYT article on how religion/kinship led Orthodox Jews to be sheared by Madoff
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: Glen Davidson | September 2, 2009 12:05 PM
Well then take it up with Bloomberg fer Chrissake. PZ just quoted that source, which, unless I'm mistaken, is owned by a Jewish fellow.
Could be wrong either way, of course. But just whining about it and alluding to anti-Semitism is BS.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: Geds | September 2, 2009 12:10 PM
John @46: In reality, people who assume that they are not good marks tend to make good marks.
I forget where it was, but I was in a conversation a few months ago that turned towards car repair. The specific issue was a guy who basically said, "Mechanics rip women off all the time. They wouldn't do the same to me, since I'm a man."
My response was, "Shady mechanics must love you."
Because that's exactly the thing. The con artist isn't looking for members of a particular demographic group, he or she is looking for a mark. And the best mark is the one who thinks he or she cannot be conned.
Of course the next issue is that there are certain places where the credulous gather. Those places are a magnet for the con artist. Churches are an easy place to look. It would not at all surprise me to find that academia gets a certain level of attention, too. The scam would be different, because the route of entry would require a different touch, but there's no doubt in my mind that someone who knows what they're doing could take advantage of the blind spots in academia.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 2, 2009 12:11 PM
You obviously have an amazingly incorrect and / or misinformed understanding of evolution.
Posted by: Knockgoats | September 2, 2009 12:14 PM
I know most don’t what to hear this but could it be that the money swindled from the Mormon widows and orphans’ actually is being put to better use buying luxury homes in Marina Del Ray. In a Darwinian viewpoint is this money not going the right direction? - James Brown
You're right James, most of us don't want to hear some fuckwit saying something as egregiously stupid as that.
Posted by: charley | September 2, 2009 12:15 PM
Amway is the master of this approach to scamming, and they have managed to keep it up for 50 years by staying just within the law (sort of). This online book, an account of one guy's 10 year nightmare with Amway, is actually pretty good reading, even though is looks kind of hokey.
http://www.merchantsofdeception.com/
Posted by: Lynna | September 2, 2009 12:15 PM
Utah County has the highest density of MLM’s -- no other location in the USA comes even close.
Pyramid Schemes are now legal in Utah. This point was mentioned in an earlier thread this year when Chief Cloudpiler used a combination of loosely-written laws about pyramid schemes and laws about defining Native American Tribes to launch his own brand of woo.
I think there may be an element of "it's okay to stretch the truth a little when you're earning money that's going to help to support the LDS Church" etc. After all, noni juice is not exactly bad for you, it's just not any better than any other kind of juice, and if the great components of noni fruit are removed or downgraded during processing, maybe they will magically reappear if sold by people of faith.
More info at http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/Utah_hotbed.htm
Posted by: Randomfactor | September 2, 2009 12:18 PM
True story: I once *WORKED* for a Ponzi scam which targeted gullible church members in this way (well, is there any other kind?) I started keeping duplicate computer backups offsite and turned them over to the cops.
While the numbers are still fuzzy, the ringleader went to the State pen for several years for stealing somewhere between $10-20 million.
Posted by: reverted | September 2, 2009 12:24 PM
@ #4 and #8:
Check-out this bumper sticker. :)
Posted by: Lynna | September 2, 2009 12:25 PM
80% of the legislators in Utah are members of the LDS Church -- it's no surprise to discover that they have passed laws that allow MLMs to flourish.
Posted by: Nominal Egg | September 2, 2009 12:27 PM
This sounds like it can't miss! And now I've got this $1,000,000 just laying around that I'm not donating to UMM now (PZ still hasn't been fired for desecrating his coffee grounds that one time). Do you have a flashy, professional-looking website I can donate through?Posted by: ron | September 2, 2009 12:42 PM
i for one don't feel any sympathy. this is a group of people that celebrate credulity and see it as a virtue.
Posted by: rrt | September 2, 2009 12:46 PM
I appreciate your points, John, but they seem rather obvious. Of course other people, including academics, can be conned or be inept at certain financial dealings. But when it comes to cons, religion is king. Nothing else shuts down critical thinking as easily, and you add in authoritarianism and in-group identification. And so conmen flock to it--when they don't just set up permanent shop as preachers themselves. Of COURSE they won't con the whole, or even most, of the flock. But it's the easiest, most obvious target-rich environment to hunt in.
Posted by: Lynna | September 2, 2009 1:09 PM
Here's one of the best sites on mormonism, well-written, and well-researched
http://www.i4m.com/think/
I'm not shilling for anyone I know here -- never met the guy. Whoever he is, I send him my thanks.
The link is cross-posted here and on the "Krishna" thread.
Posted by: truthspeaker | September 2, 2009 1:29 PM
I'm going to quibble here with your use of the phrase "inherent nature". For me, at least, skepticism is not inherent, at least not entirely so. My parents taught me to be skeptical and encouraged and nurtured any inherent skeptical bent I might have been born with, starting with my observation at age 6 or so that the idea of a man riding a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer didn't make a whole lot of sense.
Just as I was encouraged to be skeptical, many children are discouraged from questioning and skepticism.
Posted by: John | September 2, 2009 1:40 PM
Glen wrote;
Whining?
Come on, you can do better than that. I point out that it's worth being a bit careful about a broad categorisation, and in your head that's "whining"?
Whatever, man, if that's the way you roll, then I'll happily leave you to it.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | September 2, 2009 1:57 PM
We really don't need your dull pedanticism. Bloomberg made a very crude comparison between Madoff's victims and those of this later scheme, but it seems to fit well enough for the purpose.
You're pretending that there's something sinister about it, possibly anti-Semitic, yet the source is apparently a Jewish-owned entity. You ignore that to say that you're not whining, when you've pushed for blaming people for stereotyping (which arguably is a stereotype of your own).
Yes I call that whining. And your reaction to it is absurd, as if we shouldn't suppose that there's any connnection between religious gullibility and financial gullibility, when both the history of scams perpetrated upon the religious (and they are then victims) and the excessive gullibility that is known to exist disproportionately among the religious argue for it.
You're just playing PC, when you don't know the situation, nor apparently the way in which it was especially Orthodox Jews (not ethnic Jews as much) who fell for Madoff's scam. Learn something, quit blaming, and maybe you can do more than whine at people.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: Qwerty | September 2, 2009 2:10 PM
Anyone become prey for a scam, but the religious may be more vulnerable because they have that tendency to put their faith and believe in what may be bogus.
The article Glen D mentions regarding Bernie Madoff mentions a book that tells about how the Modern Orthordox Jews are a "claustrophobic community" which may also explain why an outsider may have trouble convincing someone they are being scammed.
The thing that always amazes me is that in these articles you'll usually see the phrase "life savings" wiped out. You'd think people would spread their investments to avoid a scam, but I guess if you're gullible.
I would definitely agree that religion itself is a scam selling faith in the nonexistent with dubious promises of happiness and life everlasting.
Posted by: David Ratnasabapathy | September 2, 2009 2:19 PM
James Brown @41,
The outrage this swindle causes to our sense of morality, and the compassion we feel towards the innocent victims was crafted in us by Darwinian evolution. So no, the money's not going in the right direction. Darwinian evolution, the force that shaped us, tells us it's wrong.
Posted by: Alen W | September 2, 2009 2:27 PM
Yeah, I know it's bad that all these people got ripped off, but... If they weren't such greedy assholes in the first place...
"They promised to triple investors’ money"
Greed is what blinds people to the obviousness of the scam. Same with Maddofs victims too, greedy assholes one and all.
Posted by: Lynna | September 2, 2009 3:19 PM
The Mormons I know who are into MLMs and pyramid schemes do not seem to be motivated solely by greed, nor even mostly by greed. Sure, they're after the money, but what they're thinking to themselves is something like this: "I'm special, God loves me, God sent me this great opportunity. I can make money for myself and for the church. I can help others. I am so good, and this product coming my way is proof of my goodness. Thank you, Jesus."
In other words, for lots of people scams look just like manna from heaven -- that's how mind-fucked they are.
Posted by: MikeyM | September 2, 2009 3:43 PM
The Firesign Theatre used to put it this way: There's a seeker born every minute.
Posted by: MikeyM | September 2, 2009 3:51 PM
Now I feel even more guilty about illegally downloading that Fantasy Twins CD.
Posted by: Seth | September 2, 2009 4:11 PM
The Bloomberg article on this contains this line: "Ned Hill, a professor of business management and a former dean of the Marriott School of Management at Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah, says Mormons have a history of being victimized by financial scams."
To anyone familiar with Mormon history, the irony of that line is almost unbearable.
For Pete's sake, the LDS church BEGAN as a financial scam!
Posted by: MadScientist | September 2, 2009 5:34 PM
So far my ratio of religious people vs. godless people asking me for investment advice on scams is about 6:1. That doesn't really mean anything though - there could be a lot more godless people out there who don't ask me if it's wise to invest in this or that tech scam or they could simply be exposed to fewer cons - or they could be rejecting many cons on their own or asking someone else - or simply falling for more cons, or ...
Many of the confidence scams I'm asked about don't even relate to technology; the latest involved some people claiming to be working with the UN. They had all sorts of shiny brochures, a rented office which they could quickly vacate, a lot of sob stories, etc. etc. I told the guy being scammed that he should tell the police - he came back telling me that the police said it's not their job to pick up those scamsters. I asked him if he's sure he went to the real police.
In another tech scam some well-dressed folks from Texas were running around Australia trying to drum up money to build some fantastic satellite that did everything from tie your shoes to save the world. Well, OK, I exaggerate a bit because I can't remember their ridiculous claims. One claimed to have been a former NASA employee but he couldn't even tell me which group within NASA so I guess he's not aware that NASA's got numerous facilities and research groups around the country. Other claims were not technically feasible (although manager types who don't understand science at all usually blow up claims in such a fashion). The group also did their best to dodge certain questions making silly claims such as they can't talk about it because of national security and so on. Having worked with various bits of technology which are strictly regulated by the government, I had no idea what those people were alluding to when they made up their claims to secrecy; the types of questions I asked could be answered without breaking any rules because they were questions about topics well known to experts in the field around the world. The audience was shocked when I said "This is a load of crap. What sort of con game are you running?" The suits had nothing to say after that. Later I heard from others that the group toured more of Australia but that the general attitude was one of "I don't even know what you're talking about, I'm not giving you my money."
Now one fairly recent tech scam in Australia had to do with a pill for cars - not to prevent the cars from reproducing but to improve fuel efficiency by a factor of 2. Even some politicians are on record crowing about this marvellous Australian achievement. A few friends asked me about the scam and I said "it sounds like a load of shit to me" and explained some of the history of the internal combustion engine, how it has evolved in the past 40 years, those horrible tradeoffs to make with reality and which make any further gains in performance not only smaller but more difficult to achieve, how some short-duration change in performance is achieved by some buffs, and overall how a pill can't possibly increase your fuel efficiency by any significant amount.
Posted by: MadScientist | September 2, 2009 5:54 PM
@Allen W #66: I agree with Lynna #67 - they're not necessarily greedy. Many of Madoff's victims aren't necessarily greedy either. Many were just looking for some way to improve their retirement funds, trying to find a fund with a guaranteed long-term return to fund a charity, etc. Madoff wasn't promising a huge increase; we was promising a modest increase over what others were claiming and he gave the impression of delivering on his claims. A lot of people thought "this is good - he's above average and why shouldn't he be as an ex chairman of NASDAQ?"
Falling for the Nigerian mail scams - now that's greedy; I can't think of any other explanation for agreeing to collude with admitted thieves in exchange for a share of the loot, or falling for the inheritance scams which run the ancient line of "I just need another $50k to be able to settle matters, get my multi-billion inheritance, and send you a few million".
Posted by: MadScientist | September 2, 2009 6:09 PM
@James Brown #33: Darwin and his ideas has nothing to do with it. You shouldn't encourage people to believe that Darwin's got anything to do with it. Darwin himself didn't like the scumbags who associated his ideas on natural selection and evolution with societal problems. "Social Darwinism" as its called is one of a creatard's favorite straw men. Even though people may see similarities, they are almost entirely unrelated. You might imagine the relationship being something like the relationship between a red apple and a red airplane.
Posted by: Last Hussar | September 2, 2009 7:01 PM
By co-incidence just finished reading the latest sSkeptic, which is on the US justice system, and the writer asks whether crimes such as these are not in fact worse than a lone murder with no pre-cons
Posted by: JThompson | September 2, 2009 7:30 PM
@MadScientist: I have the same problem you do. It gets old having to explain over and over to the same blasted people that magic pills/potions and "free energy" do not work.
The latest was some kind of stupid perpetual motion machine. "Sure the other thousand of them were scams, but I think this guy is the real deal!". *sigh* You'd think these people would bother to at least Google "(Insert psuedoscience fad here)scam" before they invest in it.
Posted by: E.V. | September 2, 2009 7:49 PM
Don't forget the con in con game does not stand for convict (noun) but confidence.
Posted by: James Davies | September 2, 2009 8:39 PM
Yeah, Amway does the exact same thing - recruits people from evangelical churches.
Posted by: Paul Burnett | September 3, 2009 12:20 AM
Seth (#70) wrote: "For Pete's sake, the LDS church BEGAN as a financial scam!"
True - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtland_Safety_Society
Posted by: Jafafa Hots | September 3, 2009 12:58 AM
Pretty much all the "best" MLM scams, the various fruit juices purported to cure cancer at $150 a bottle, other marketing scams... all are headquartered in Utah.
There has to be a reason for that.
Posted by: paradoctor | September 3, 2009 1:23 AM
Re James Brown's inflammatory comment @41:
He's sort of right in this sense: just as civilization is forcing us to evolve stronger immune systems, due to diseases of crowds, so too civilization is forcing us to evolve stronger BS filters, due to death cults and confidence rackets. May the believer beware!
But the issue is subtle. Credulity empowers death cults and confidence rackets; but on the other hand it strengthens social bonds. I suspect that the net effect depends on the size of the community. Small towns select for faith; big cities select for skepticism.
Posted by: RBH | September 3, 2009 1:28 AM
The core is in the last paragraphs of the linked Bloomberg story:
Is there a better description of a fundamentalist Christian creationist anywhere?Posted by: Paul Murray | September 3, 2009 3:29 AM
Any christian with a little common sense knows never to do business with another christian - particularly one that advertises themselves as being a christian business.
Posted by: Midnight Rambler | September 3, 2009 6:28 AM
Maybe people didn't read far enough into the article (or saw a different version than I did), but the kicker in this was that the two ringleaders in the scam went to the guy's funeral, in deep mourning - and there convinced his brother to contribute even more money.Seriously, what the hell does it take to wake people up?
Posted by: KevinC | September 4, 2009 4:31 AM
Speaking of cons, it's interesting to read the Gospel accounts of Jesus' exorcisms with that in mind. Whenever a "demon-possessed" person's words are recorded, they're always loudly and publicly proclaiming that Jesus is the "Son of God." Never "Son of Zeus" or "Son of Amun-Re" or anything that might actually have hindered Jesus.
There's even one story (Mark 1:21-28) in which Jesus is teaching in a synagogue, and the listeners are astonished with the way he teaches as one with "authority" (i.e., on his own authority, rather than on the basis of tradition and scripture as the scribes and Pharisees taught). It turns out that there was a "demon-possessed man" who sits quietly throughout Jesus' sermon, and then, at the proper dramatic moment, jumps up and shouts:
And the gullible flock was suitably impressed (verses 27 and 28) so that his "fame spread throughout all the region about Galilee."
Isn't that just a little too convenient? Why, if I was a demon wanting to botch Jesus' mission, I'd have my possessed host fart loudly and putridly every time poor Jesus tried to make a point. OTOH, if I was a con man getting a share of the take...
Posted by: Irene Delse | September 5, 2009 3:10 PM
Observant Jews, Mormons... Now, the Islamic edition! Meet Salah Ezzedine, the "Bernard Madoff of Lebanon", a prominent Shiite businessman with links to the Hezbollah, now in prison on suspicion of operating a Ponzi scheme with the investment of other pious Shiites who favored his "Islamic" finance services over regular banks who loan with interest:
http://archive.gulfnews.com/business/Banking_and_Finance/10345678.html
Posted by: PapaHans | September 9, 2009 5:01 AM
Jeezus,
How can anyone feel sorry for these greedy, stupid, deluded fools? If something sounds too good to be true, it's too good to be true. Especially if it's religious bots, I have no empathy at all. As someone who's always had to work two jobs to make ends meet, (I have six kids), utter contempt does not express my feelings towards those free-market mavens who try to make money without actually working or contributing anything worthwhile to the world. Tough shit you imbeciles.
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