…and this is a 
It's a fine story, taken from the press conference I gave on Thursday, except for two things.
The comments are a mix of the sane and the deranged. Fargo has some interesting people living up there—a lot of smart, sensible, rational people, and some some very noisy lunatics. It's strange how the lunatics rarely show up for any of my talks, however, but they always have the most vivid opinions of them.
The other problem is the end. The writer just had to do the usual thing of looking for a dissenting voice and giving them the unquestioned last word.
The Rev. Jeff Sandgren, pastor at Olivet Lutheran Church in Fargo, said Thursday that he doesn't think science and religion need to be at odds.
He tells the story of an astronomy course he took in college and his introduction to the professor who taught it.
"Here comes this well-known physics professor and the guy is carrying two books, one was this great big astronomy book and the next one was the Bible," Sandgren recalled.
"Mind you," Sandgren added, "this is a guy who has been working for NASA, he's a brilliant physicist and he says: 'I have two books in my hand, this one tells us how - and he holds up the astronomy book - and this book tells us who.'
"For me," Sandgren said, "that's always been the dialectic I've lived with."
OK, fine. He's always lived with insipid opinions. He's a pastor, I'm unsurprised.
But tell me…what, exactly, does that Bible contribute to students' understanding of astronomy, huh? It may say "who", but so does the Bhagavad Gita, so do the Eddas, so do the local Anishinabe myths, so does Dr Seuss (it's Cindy Lou Who, in case you forgot). Being a 'guy who worked for NASA' does not confer infallibility or even a smidgen of authority in a discussion of the identity of invisible intelligent vapor wafting about outside the universe. Let's hear some of the arguments, rather than waving about holy books and second-hand physics degrees, please.
I'm also feeling a bit cranky about the asymmetry of the situation. You won't catch me striding boldly into my classes with a biology textbook in one hand and The God Delusion in the other, triumphantly announcing to the students that one book explains biology, and the other is the philosophy of atheism they should follow — that would be inappropriate, a distraction from the subject students were there to learn, and an unprofessional violation of my responsibilities as an instructor.
Yet here's this guy proudly recounting tales from his college days when a bible-thumping bozo would come into a science class and preach Christian superstition. No wonder he's a benighted peddler of hoary dogmas now, instead of an astronomer — he got screwed over in his education, and he's not even aware of it.
Politics
Comments
Posted by: The Science Pundit
|
September 26, 2009 11:00 AM
Well smarty pants, that because you desecrated your copy of The God Delusion with coffee grounds and banana peels. Heathen!!!
Posted by: Ec5618
|
September 26, 2009 11:07 AM
Well, they didn't misspell your name, for once, but managed to butcher the name of the blog: "pharyngular".
Posted by: Greginnd
|
September 26, 2009 11:10 AM
PZ, I thought the same thing when I read that article. I find this approach to try to legitimize god with stories like that repugnant. And I have purposely stayed away from the comments in order to keep my blood pressure down. You should have seen our wonderful Un-Inforumed webpage when they allowed unmoderated comments and had the opinion articles open to public comment. I have never seen the vitriol so bad.
Thanks again for coming up our way. It was a pleasure to hear your thoughts and meet you.
Posted by: Peter McKellar
|
September 26, 2009 11:12 AM
I wonder if the Rev quoted was the "peevedfacedone"?
I did an evening course on astronomy/cosmology run at the local observatory (20 years ago). The observatory was just the city relic, now light polluted but it served as the offices for many of the countries top astronomers. The lecturer knew his stuff but in discussions one night revealed that he was a strong xian and had no problems with the compartmentalisation (although he didn't call it that). He wasn't YEC and this was pre-ID, but he argued those wishy-washy day=epoch sort of things. I learned a lot in the classes but I lost respect for him at that point. I've read a lot since and what he said was accurate but I still cannot understand how all the science and maths covered could be so easily dissed as soon as there was mention of god.
The indoctrination goes deep in some. Maybe Plank was right when he said the ideas won't die out til the people that hold them do. The rate that people are leaving religions buoys me with hope that reason can overcome the generational delay. Even so, some will never know when to cut their losses and just get out.
Posted by: Lynna
|
September 26, 2009 11:24 AM
Well, PZ, you certainly got a lot of people thinking, and that's a win. I wonder if the newspaper ever received that many comments on a story before. It would be interesting to know if the story broke their record.
Posted by: Rorschach
|
September 26, 2009 11:30 AM
Oh man,I feel so pharyngular at times....
And I am about sex
baconbroccoli and cricket, arent all atheists??Posted by: Greginnd
|
September 26, 2009 11:48 AM
Unfortunately not even close. We have had some very heated god arguments over the last year that have resulted in 40+ pages of comments.
Posted by: Lynna
|
September 26, 2009 12:06 PM
That's very impressive. The website has a lot of readers, and they're actively commenting. So, how many gods showed up to argue on the 40+ pages?
Posted by: Matt Penfold
|
September 26, 2009 12:11 PM
I am also glad to see the more insane posters there are outnumbered by the rational.
Posted by: Lynna
|
September 26, 2009 12:15 PM
Yeah, I noticed that too. I read several pages of comments just to make sure I wasn't seeing things. It's not a good commentary of our society when we are surprised to find more rational than irrational comments.
Posted by: Lynna
|
September 26, 2009 12:16 PM
I'm still looking for the gods arguing. I really would like to see the gods argue among themselves on the pages of a Fargo website.
Posted by: NixManes
|
September 26, 2009 12:18 PM
I attended the event Thursday night (the movie "Letting Go of God," PZ's presentation immediately after, and joined a few folks for some drinks later). It was a pleasant evening, for sure.
Having been an atheist for years, my position has been pretty solidifed so I have not done too much in an "active" sense. I know what I know and was tired of all the mindless arguements. I didn't even know of this blog until this summer.
It's really nice to know, though, that there are people like PZ Myers (and others) who have the energy, intelligence, and patience to do what they do.
If you read this, it was a pleasure to meet you, PZ. I enjoyed it immensely and look forward to your book. I read your "Dungeon" list and found your commentary on each individual entertaining in itself, let alone the few blogs posts I've had time to absorb.
Thanks for everything and I hope you continue to let the world inside your brain from a long time to come.
Posted by: Jeff Eyges
|
September 26, 2009 12:29 PM
The Church of Cindy Lou Who.I want in on the ground floor.
Are you selling indulgences?
Posted by: The Pale Scot
|
September 26, 2009 1:32 PM
Wow, PZ, o you have "followers"!
http://www.inforum.com/event/commentViolation/id/254062/created/2009%2D09%2D25%2001%3A03%3A45%2E0/type/Article/user_id/2736a7ee311affc7c693877d2e97ea90/publisher_Id/1/
where do I sign up?
What are the requirements?
I don't have to give up drinking or Dr. Who, do I?
"Cause that would be a deal breaker.
Posted by: The Pale Scot
|
September 26, 2009 1:34 PM
But I could use a little Satanic Pride, I have self esteem issues.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM
|
September 26, 2009 1:36 PM
Wow, that comment the Pale Scot linked to could have been verbatim what the peevishfacedbigot wrote. They've got their talking points down.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
|
September 26, 2009 1:43 PM
unh; according to the comments, throwing away one cracker is a crime equivalent to genocide; "Freethinkers" worship Al Gore; P.Z. wouldn't ever have the guts to desecrate a Qur'an;
fucking idiots
----
on a different note, I did enjoy meeting y'all on Thursday :-)
Posted by: mtgap.wordpress.com
|
September 26, 2009 1:44 PM
Christians get to endorse Christianity. Atheists don't get to endorse atheism. It may be unfair, but you have to learn to live with it.
Posted by: MosesZD
|
September 26, 2009 1:48 PM
Yeah, but you've got to remember he probably went to some po-dunk bible college. And if he did, what he got was, in that context, quite a cutting0edge, dangerous-to-faith science education.
Unlike that crazy place Dembski works at...
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
|
September 26, 2009 1:48 PM
oh and MAJeff, you've given me cravings for proper clam-chowder now. I hate you :-p
Posted by: Jeff Eyges
|
September 26, 2009 1:58 PM
Wow, PZ, you have "followers"!
Bah! The ICR called me a groupie!
Pikers.
Posted by: dutchdoc
|
September 26, 2009 3:03 PM
Chances are The Reverend Jeff Sandgren, pastor at Olivet Lutheran Church in Fargo, simply made up that story.
Pastors are good at that!
Posted by: The Pale Scot
|
September 26, 2009 3:10 PM
Having read all the comments, I find this Andrew W quite a resilient fellow. We really must bake him a cake or something.
Posted by: Nelson M.
|
September 26, 2009 4:54 PM
I agree The Pale Scot, the fellow seems very deserving.
Posted by: Caulimovirus
|
September 26, 2009 6:04 PM
That bit about the professor with the bible and the textbook bought back some pleasant memories for me.
Ah, those were the days...
Posted by: Keanus
|
September 26, 2009 6:20 PM
The comments are not surprising. Our local daily, unimaginatively named the "Daily Local News" give prominence to letters from readers. Some elicit further letters (mine usually do since I normally give some outside the norm views) but the real comments come on the website. There almost any rational letter will attacked by what I call drive-by fire bombers. No logic, just name calling and insults. Of course on the website, people post under aliases, whereas published letters must be over the real name of a person. The bombers dominate the web site comments rendering them completely useless as source of ideas or a jumping off point for further discussion.
Posted by: Marcus J. Ranum
|
September 26, 2009 6:59 PM
Well, at least you don't have to deal with the crappy Fargo winters. ;)
Posted by: «bønez_brigade»
|
September 26, 2009 7:28 PM
Relatively fair TV news coverage & radio interview, lest the previous links get buried in the archives.
Posted by: chakolate
|
September 26, 2009 10:23 PM
You don't really believe that story, do you? It's exactly the sort of thing a liar for Jesus would come up with.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM
|
September 26, 2009 10:32 PM
oh and MAJeff, you've given me cravings for proper clam-chowder now. I hate you :-p
like this?
I try, I try :-)
Posted by: echidna
|
September 26, 2009 10:58 PM
I assume the story is not a recounting of a real event, since it has all the hallmarks (no name, no date, appeal to authority) of a made-up story. The pastor would probably justify it as making a point through a parable.
The "Lying for Jebus" tag comes not from the story itself, but by not flagging it as an illustrative invention. The actual point he was trying to make, that he as a pastor has no quarrel with science, is quite inoffensive.
Posted by: Aquaria
|
September 27, 2009 5:23 AM
Nobody's slapping him around for saying he has no quarrel with science. We're objecting to his lie, and his use of it to imply that religion must be gee-golly awesome and true and just the shit to end all shit if some fancy-pants scientist holds to it.
Posted by: Trausti
|
September 28, 2009 5:47 AM
Some of the comments were particularly revealing.
Brandyn E. wrote: I don't know how people can be so ignorant as to think they can dent a person's BELIEFS with facts.
Normally I´d assume that was a joke but unfortunately it seems like the person is being sincere. Well at least they´re open about it.
PS Long time reader, first time poster. Hi everybody!
Posted by: John Morales
|
September 28, 2009 6:02 AM
Trausty, welcome and yeah, it's a telling comment!