…and this is a 
The Minot meeting this evening was lots of fun; what made it especially entertaining was that it was attended by a few fervently deluded creationists who boldly asked questions at the end. I got a few variants of "you're uncivil, so I think you're wrong" (tough — peddle bullshit arguments, I'll call you a bullshitter), the "you just have different presuppositions than I do" argument (which works wonderfully in arguments for the existence of Santa Claus), and the claim that "creationists and scientists look at the same facts and just interpret them differently" (not true, creationists selectively ignore most of the facts). I also got a few specific questions outside my field, like the one about the shrinking sun. Too bad I didn't have my counter-creationism handbook with me, because this is a stunt they always pull: I talk about genetics and molecular biology, so they pepper me with misconceptions about physics and geology.
Anyway, I did show one amusing video at the end of my talk to illustrate creationist theology. Here it is:
Sometime, I have to get some sleep, though. And sometime, I have to drive all the way back to Morris. Oy, this has been a long week. What day is it?
Monday?
Oh, crap.
Comments
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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October 5, 2009 11:31 PM
*headdesk*
*headdesk*
*headdesk*
Posted by: gyeong-hwa
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October 5, 2009 11:33 PM
I grind my teeth whenever I hear this argument. The fact that the evidence overwhelmingly support evolution leads me to suspect they are unsure of what the evidence are.
But it's nice to them to make the distinction between creationist and scientists as creationist don't do science.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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October 5, 2009 11:36 PM
shit, I wish I had gone, just to see if my former boss was one of the creonuts. I don't know if he is a creationist, but he's a general science-hater and the sort of Christian who prays over his McNuggets.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM
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October 5, 2009 11:40 PM
I got a few variants of "you're uncivil, so I think you're wrong"
North Dakotans have fooled themselves into thinking that 1) "Niceness" rules, and 2) they're nice people.
Since I've arrived in the state, I've been called "homo" while walking down the street. A students of mine was called a "nigger lover" in the res hall dining all (was hyperon in ND?). We've had a fight between a white student and an American Indian student over the Fighting Sioux nickname. That entire controversy is resurrecting the epithet "prairie nigger" around these parts, and the folks who are housed in the same building as our Indian Studies Dep't have been put on higher alert to watch for folk who shouldn't be in the problem. The secretary of that dep't has been subject to more than a few harassing phone calls.
This is a pretty fucking bigoted place.
Posted by: gyeong-hwa
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October 5, 2009 11:43 PM
Careful, let us not get a concussion here! lol
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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October 5, 2009 11:46 PM
considering the evident state of my head, I don't think that would do much damage anymore.This is gonna bother me pretty much permanently until I finally manage to show up to one of PZ's events. So far, that's a 0 out of 2 (I won't count the short post-movie speech, since that wasn't specifically a PZ event, and was pretty short in any case).
I fail.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM
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October 5, 2009 11:48 PM
I fail.
Have a couple beers and relax. Even if you didn't get to a speech, you got the better part. Hanging out and drinking (too cold) Guinness.
Posted by: Deebs
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October 5, 2009 11:52 PM
Hey PZ! The excitable-as-a-non-housebroken-labradoodle-wearing-yellow-and-black-girl here. Just wanted to say again how awesome it was to have you drop by Minot, and that I hope I didn't disturb you with my glee. It was just a real treat to finally meet you in person after reading your blog for so long. Hope I didn't bug you too much, and hope you have a good time cruising Minot before you leave.
And yeah, the creationists were a trip but nothing unique in Minot. It's... very... fundamentalist here, which is part of why I was so ecstatic to see you.
Posted by: gyeong-hwa
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October 5, 2009 11:56 PM
Just sit back and listen to some tunes. And all your worries are gone (less you got homework.)
Hey, it's okay. Even in liberal California we have this problem. Hell just last week a fundie came to our campus to proclaim that all Muslims, Jews, RC, Mormons, Buddhist, Hindus, New Age, Gays, Gamblers, people who are into anime/video games, other false Christians, and "bad-mouth" women will burn in hell unless we turn to their zombie. It's why I'm hesitant to go to our local pride festival.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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October 6, 2009 12:01 AM
true enough. And speaking of Guinness: it's duck season, which means sometime soonish, my boyfriend's family will again send my boyfriend home with bucketloads of meat. and then there will be Guinness Stew with Duck. *Le Yum*and on yet another note, the main reason I wanted to be there tonight is to maybe get to know some other local skeptics, since they're few and far between, and hard to spot in the wild. Would have been nice to meet fellow non-crazies from here, and maybe even arrange for occasional coffee meets to detox from the daily godbotting (well, my dose of daily godbotting is almost zero now, but that's because I gave up trying to have a job around here).
*sigh*
Posted by: MAJeff, OM
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October 6, 2009 12:01 AM
Hey, it's okay. Even in liberal California we have this problem.
Oh yeah, I got that shit in Boston and Minneapolis, too. But there's a cumulative effect. I mean, "nigger lover?" Are we trapped in To Kill A fucking Mockingbird?
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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October 6, 2009 12:06 AM
it gets truly absurd when you happen to be German and decidedly anti-racist, but people still feel justified to proudly show you their "Gott mit Uns" tattoos, etc. :-/
Posted by: Glen Davidson
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October 6, 2009 12:13 AM
But see, that's the problem with dissing the Bible, too. It's god's word, just like this is god's world, but Satan has hidden nonsense within the Bible to make it look like it's not divine.
Just believe every word of the Bible, and you'll be fine.Oh, um, well, just believe the words that Satan didn't put in the Bible, and then you'll be saved.Anyway, all science and literature classes that don't teach the controversy about Satan's planting evidence is serving Satan.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: SafetyCap
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October 6, 2009 12:14 AM
"You ever worry stuff like this is gonna set cancer research back by twenty years?"
Gold.
Even NASA recognizes "god did it" doesn't work for their future engineers, but where are they going to get new meat if all the ones in Texas don't know jack about science??
Posted by: Jim Lippard
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October 6, 2009 12:17 AM
Even creationists have rejected the shrinking sun argument:
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/26/26_2/sun.html
Posted by: 5cent
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October 6, 2009 2:00 AM
Glen,
"But see, that's the problem with dissing the Bible, too. It's god's word, just like this is god's world, but Satan has hidden nonsense within the Bible to make it look like it's not divine."
That almost touches on one of my big peeves. God is supposedly this hands off guy wanting to let humans sort it out themselves. Hence the lack of materialization. And satan is theoretically always sticking his finger into the pot to mess things up and get what he wants. But which one has a best selling book?
I posit that "Satan" is masquerading as "God."
Posted by: omnot
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October 6, 2009 2:38 AM
If I were in your situation and being asked questions outside your area of expertise, I would be tempted to look thoughtful, then ask the questioner what their religious affiliation is, and if it is, say, Christian, acknowledge that, look very thoughtful and ask them a very specific question about a completely different religion. Something obscure or perhaps some long unresolved conflict in the text of a non-christian religious text.
Ideally, they will object and demand that you answer their question, at which point you explain that you cannot answer their question about a field of science that you are not knowledgeable about just as the questioner cannot be expected to answer complex questions about faiths they are not familiar with.
Of course, this approach presumes you are dealing with a reasonable questioner, and I understand that you may not have that luxury.
Posted by: Tim_Danaher
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October 6, 2009 5:33 AM
@Jadehawk:
Yup. My wife, who is German, had this often in London. Once in a hairdresser's she had the (Turkish) stylist telling her what a great guy Hitler was and how he had all the right ideas, as if her being German meant that she would automatically agree with him.
Posted by: SEF
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October 6, 2009 6:20 AM
@ Deebs #8:
That sort of behaviour can get one arrested. ;-)
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp
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October 6, 2009 8:19 AM
If there is one constant it's that there will always be creationists that will continue to spew any and all creationists arguments no matter how embarrassing they are or how many other creationists want them to stop.
Posted by: Insightful Ape
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October 6, 2009 9:03 AM
Sounds like a lot of fun.
I'd like to tell them I can also shoehorn the data to fit the gospel of Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Posted by: Ibis3
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October 6, 2009 9:37 AM
I would venture to guess that 99% of them are not even familiar with the theology of Christianity (except a very small amount of stuff with which they've been
indoctrinatedbrainwashed). Ask them about whether the Father and Son are homoousios or homoiousios and what evidence was used to make that decision, or what the nature of the Logos is and what "John"'s on about in the prologue of his gospel. Ask them who established the doctrine of Original Sin and when, or whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son or just the Father. Blank stares will result.Posted by: MAJeff, OM
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October 6, 2009 9:42 AM
Even in liberal California we have this problem. Hell just last week a fundie came to our campus to proclaim that all Muslims, Jews, RC, Mormons, Buddhist, Hindus, New Age, Gays, Gamblers, people who are into anime/video games, other false Christians, and "bad-mouth" women will burn in hell unless we turn to their zombie. It's why I'm hesitant to go to our local pride festival.
which is also why you should go to the Pride festival.
I've sat in a bar with friends for hours, subjecting myself to harassment (and allowing these straight folks to experience it first hand). I will NOT give up my right to occupy public space, even in the face of potential violence (nothing physical has happened yet--to me).
Posted by: AC Skeptic
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October 6, 2009 9:48 AM
I'm stealing the "Satan is a dick theory of fossilization".
Posted by: Beth B.
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October 6, 2009 12:25 PM
Hey, Satan messes up my radiometric dating all the time. He's mostly got it down pat to where the multiple billion year dates look legit. He's managed to do this to me on 2 separate instruments now, and I'm wondering if I'll *ever* find a method he can't taint.
Maybe I should ask the RATE group: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/rate.htm
Posted by: Snakewoman
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October 6, 2009 2:56 PM
#10
There actually ARE some skeptics in Minot. Check out the Minot Skeptical Society. We meet about once a month and would love some new members.
Posted by: davej
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October 6, 2009 4:17 PM
No, I totally disagree with the rude and crude approach. It plays right into the hands of Christians who have already set themselves up as the keepers of all that is moral, right and proper.
Posted by: moonfox
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October 6, 2009 11:36 PM
Thanks for speaking in Minot. I was actually quite surprised that there are so many atheists I didn't know about in Minot. Most of the time I'm looked at as if I've grown a third head if I tell people I don't believe in any gods, or creationist "ideas" as if any actual thought went into them in the first place. Having you there was a nice way to, at the very least, show atheists in a predominant christian republican town that we are not as alone as we think, so thank you.