…and this is a 
It's a modern-day version of a long-running evil: children in Africa are being murdered in the name of God.
The nine-year-old boy lay on a bloodstained hospital sheet crawling with ants, staring blindly at the wall.
His family pastor had accused him of being a witch, and his father then tried to force acid down his throat as an exorcism. It spilled as he struggled, burning away his face and eyes. The emaciated boy barely had strength left to whisper the name of the church that had denounced him — Mount Zion Lighthouse.
A month later, he died.
Inciting violence against "witches" is only part of the recipe for religious success — that's the fear part — with the rest of it coming from greed.
Church signs sprout around every twist of the road snaking through the jungle between Uyo, the capital of the southern Akwa Ibom state where Nwanaokwo lay, and Eket, home to many more rejected "witch children." Churches outnumber schools, clinics and banks put together. Many promise to solve parishioner's material worries as well as spiritual ones — eight out of ten Nigerians struggle by on less than $2 a day.
"Poverty must catch fire," insists the Born 2 Rule Crusade on one of Uyo's main streets.
"Where little shots become big shots in a short time," promises the Winner's Chapel down the road.
"Pray your way to riches," advises Embassy of Christ a few blocks away.
It's hard for churches to carve out a congregation with so much competition. So some pastors establish their credentials by accusing children of witchcraft.
So here we have a desperately poor region where the people need help…and instead, they get parasites who make promises of prosperity and blame failure on witches. Religion is the obstacle here, it doesn't help.
We can't be too smug here in comfortable America, though. Look inside Sarah Palin's church, and you see exactly the same formula of fear and greed at work. Her church even supported the work of a Kenyan witch-hunter!
Politics
Comments
Posted by: Brian English
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October 18, 2009 2:56 PM
But Africa needs God
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article5400568.ece
Posted by: Wes | October 18, 2009 2:56 PM
There's a good (and disturbing) documentary on the situation in Nigeria called "Saving Africa's Witch Children". It really is a completely fucked up situation. The authorities pay lip service to putting a stop to it, but are completely inactive. And preachers like Helen Ukpabio have made a fortune denouncing children as witches in the process. It's depressing even to think about it.
Posted by: strange gods before me, OM
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October 18, 2009 2:57 PM
Poverty begets religion. When people feel powerless, they turn to superstition, possibly as a way of imagining that they are in control again, in order to reduce stress.
Posted by: JC | October 18, 2009 3:08 PM
What can I say. Just stupid and repulsive: people that is already in a bad situation have to deal with this kind of nonsense. Is hard to believe that these things happen in the same world.
Posted by: Iain Walker | October 18, 2009 3:12 PM
A few months back, the UK's Channel 4 did a documentary series called Christianity: A History, one episode of which focused on the development of Christianity in Africa. The presenter for that episode (a playwright called Kwame Kwei Armah) ended up waxing enthusiastic about the idea of African Christianity re-evangelising Europe.
Given that the program made African Christians look like superstitious bigots given to mob hysteria (and this was a sympathetic account), the prospect struck me as decidedly chilling.
Let's just say that news reports like this don't make it any less chilling.
Posted by: Lilith | October 18, 2009 3:17 PM
It's so obscene I just don't have word to express how angry and saddened it makes me.
Posted by: rodiel | October 18, 2009 3:45 PM
Again, proof that humanity is capable of some really disgustingly cruel shit.
*shudders*
Posted by: Globle Warren Terrism | October 18, 2009 3:50 PM
It gets worse.
This plays to the desperation of parents who have more kids than they can care for. The shaman ('pastor') accuses one of those kids of being a witch and they kill the kid, easing the remaining family's economic situation immediately.
Family planning would be more effective and humane, but of course birth control is immoral and must be the work of the devil.
Sadly, the only good way to fight this is to hire mercenaries to kill the pastors and collect so much a head.
Posted by: Nicol | October 18, 2009 4:10 PM
Is there an Atheist "mission" that would send money and workers to teach job skills, and help build all those schools, hospitals, and banks that are so needed? It we can help them in the right ways, perhaps there would at least be a secular place for these so-called witch children to find acceptance and care.
Posted by: Andreas Johansson
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October 18, 2009 4:43 PM
I've been hearing about this idea a fair lot for, well, about as long as I've been old enough to comprehend talk of evangelization. What I still don't get is why Africans should be expected to succeed where native European Christians do not - are they hoping for exotic appeal to draw in the trendy crowd or what? Or have European Christians just gotten too lazy to do any proper evangelization themselves?Posted by: jemand | October 18, 2009 5:14 PM
@Andreas, I think it's generally taken that these kinds of things, witches, resurrections, true "spiritual warfare" means that the "spirit of god" is more at work in African churches, "on fire for the lord" whereas European Christianity is "dead" and burned out. I know as a teen my mom kept saying I probably should go as a missionary to see all the places around the world where "miracles were still occurring" and in my private high school we literally watched a video filmed by our church's branch in Africa about a guy who was "brought back to life" through prayer.
In other words, all that witch making, is a feature, not a bug, of African Christianity to the people making those statements, and it's that kind of "spiritual action" they believe will make reverse missionary work successful.
Posted by: uncle frogy | October 18, 2009 5:17 PM
The problems with the churches in Nigeria should be seen as but another aspect of the results of the decades of corruption, mismanagement and theft of the wealth of the country by the Military governments and the western corporations which themselves extend back to the colonial era(Portuguese slave trade?).
Given the disparity between the poor and the wealthy and heath issues like the rampant AIDs epidemic, and the lack of education in the poor it is small wonder that they can so easily fall victim to religion.
Posted by: Citizen of the Cosmos | October 18, 2009 5:18 PM
It's frustrating that people can never ever understand what evil religion really is, and that if they already have so many serious problems in Africa, why add more? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Religion poisons everything. It's scary how that saying works every time.
Posted by: B166ER
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October 18, 2009 5:25 PM
This is disgusting. That poor child, and all the other child "witches" having to deal with such ignorant people, and especially parents, is repulsive. I think though, that the reason so many evangelicals are looking at Africa as their holy land if you will, is because the Christians coming from there are the real fire and brimstone types. They are so superstitious that they are some of the only Christians now a days that still believe in witches. The European and American evangelists love them because they see a steady stream of uneducated foot soldiers doing the dirty work the evangelists are to "pure" to do themselves. I for one second the merc idea, FUCK, I would do it myself if I could. That kind of scum doesn't deserve to pollute the world with their filthy ideology and hatred.
Posted by: raven
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October 18, 2009 5:26 PM
This is just more of a common Xian ritual. It is human child sacrifice.
They do it in the USA too. Here instead of calling it "witch hunting", they call it "faith healing". Both are examples of a mythological concept known as "xian morality".
So what is the difference between fundie xiaity and satanism? Except that satanism doesn't exist.
Posted by: Sastra
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October 18, 2009 5:31 PM
I once became quite angry at a group of friends who responded to this story by cautioning me that one cannot criticize African religion, because they have a right to have their beliefs respected. When I pointed out that they were killing people for being witches, I got a lecture about how witches really do exist, and the evil eye is real. My atheist materialist paradigm wasn't recognizing the validity of other ways of knowing, and my insistence on Western science was racist. I needed to open my mind.
And here I thought "burning witches" was a pretty safe criticism to make against a religion, especially to neo-pagans. I hadn't counted on the multicultural sensitivity to different spiritual traditions trumping that. Nor had I expected the long-winded story from one of them about falling ill in Brazil, and then being told that they'd been cursed by a local witch. Aha! The connection was clear -- and the tale clearly made the teller feel very important about herself.
As did their collective tolerance of other traditions.
Posted by: Stanton
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October 18, 2009 5:33 PM
Well, according to Satanism, as outlined by one Mr Le Vey, a proper Satanist is never allowed to interfere with others' affairs without specific invitation to do so, and one can only draw blood if others attempt to interfere with your own affairs without specific invitation to do so (i.e., don't draw first blood).Posted by: Stanton
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October 18, 2009 5:39 PM
Well, if such is the case, you could ask them if they would be eager to torture someone to death upon accusing that person of being a witch, or if they would submit to being tortured to death upon being accused of being a witch.Posted by: Sastra
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October 18, 2009 5:49 PM
Stanton #18 wrote:
Ah, but torture is part of the Western, monotheistic, paternalistic, dualistic, capitalistic, imperialistic paradigm. The people in Africa who were killing were doing so only because they had been influenced by their colonial oppressors, and were still recovering. Their traditional animistic religion was close to the earth and spirit -- and violence is an aberration, because their world view is holistic and loving.
It's no use. History is no use, nor anthropology. They live in la-la land, and read tripe written by other people who live in la-la land, and think I'm being mislead by so-called experts who are not attuned to natural spirituality.
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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October 18, 2009 6:40 PM
This kind of repugnant activity is not limited to the African sub-continent either. A few years ago the torso of a male child was found floating in the Thames with the limbs and head removed. Apparently, the child was killed in order to perform a 'Mutie' ritual where the organs and body parts of children are used in the creation of supposedly mystical 'medicines'. While I suppose this is no morally worse than the trade in organs taken from murdered children that blights parts of Europe, it was extremely shocking at the time. We had the quaint idea that such things just weren't cricket and could never happen in Britain. In a worrying echo of Sastra's experience related above, at the time there were people arguing that it was racist to pass judgement on this aspect of African culture and religion.
I was shocked to read that the Church that Sarah Palin attends (or used to attend, I do not know which) actually supports the barbarity of modern day witch hunts. The woman is an even more dangerous maniac than I thought. I sincerely hope she never gets near the Oval Office for all our sakes.
Posted by: sammywol | October 18, 2009 6:47 PM
There has been a big ad campaign in Ireland this week drumming up cash for a Church Gate collection to support the Irish Missions abroad. 'The situation' we are told 'is dire and without massive financial support many of these missions will have top give up their work entirely.' Well break out the party balloons! Let's celebrate! Sadly there are always plenty of idiots ready to part with their cash in such a cause but mercifully it is becoming less and less fashionable here to support the Missions for preference when it comes to charitable donations. Pity though that these kinds of churches seem to have broken free of outside influence and are more than able to brew their own lunatic poisons. 'Africa needs God' huh? Right, and my fish wants a ten speed racing bike this time round.
Posted by: chrisD | October 18, 2009 7:07 PM
She can, however, get near my Oral Orifice and speak in tongues all she wants so long as she doesn't burn me at the steak[sic].Note: I never let the opportunity pass to make a dirty joke even if I do not really desire such actions to take place.
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler
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October 18, 2009 8:18 PM
It's hard for churches to carve out a congregation with so much competition.
What these spiritual entrepreneurs need is some guidance from that enlightened guide to the prosperity gospel, James Arthur Ray!
Posted by: d2 | October 18, 2009 8:24 PM
It's very sad indeed. I'm Nigerian and my mother is from a neighboring state to where this is happening. I happen to be an atheist, but dare not say so. Maybe someday I will have the courage to out myself. The answer to this nonsense is education. Maybe it won't put a stop to it, but it will go a long way.
thanks PZ for bringing this to our attention.
Posted by: RamblinDude
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October 18, 2009 8:26 PM
I've seen an attempted exorcism. I think it was the Church of Christ, or some such. I was about 14 at the time, decades ago. The woman had an obvious nervous disorder, probably cerebral palsy or something similar, and one night the preacher and his assistants persuaded her to allow them pray the devil out of her so she could be healed. Perhaps twenty of the church’s congregation attended for psychic support. We were all warned, of course, to believe in Jesus with all our hearts during the process, because when the demon finally came out he would be searching for a new home, and I still remember the fear I felt of not being faithful enough and getting possessed myself.
It went on for a couple of hours. Brows were furled as they hunkered down and got to business. Hands were laid upon her; the demon was rebuked many times in the name of JESUS!!; and there was lots and lots fervent praying.
She choked a few times as though she were going to throw up, but that’s about all that happened. The preacher encouraged it, saying that it was the demon coming out her, and the praying got extra fervant when that happened, but somehow, I guess she didn’t have quite enough faith, or maybe there was a doubter in the congregation, or everybody wasn’t praying hard enough, or maybe it was just an extra strong demon. The exorcist was disappointed that it hadn’t worked, but we were all assured that the demon had almost come out, so there was hope; the night wasn’t wasted.
There was, of course, no chicken’s blood or witch doctors masks because that would’ve been just, you know, superstition.
Posted by: 1minion | October 18, 2009 8:39 PM
I took part in STAND UP 2009 today at my Freethinkers meeting.
http://standagainstpoverty.org/
Obviously just standing up to honour a pledge isn't enough, but situations like in Nigeria and other countries that destitute.. I can't imagine what it must be like for the families there.
Posted by: Rorschach | October 18, 2009 8:57 PM
The problem in Africa is that people are more superstitious to start with, because of lack of education, the enlightenment hasn't happened there, and poverty is everywhere.
And then the christians descend on them like vultures and feed on those people's superstitions and economic disadvantages.
It's disgusting.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM
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October 18, 2009 9:08 PM
The problem in Africa is that people are more superstitious to start with, because of lack of education, the enlightenment hasn't happened there, and poverty is everywhere.
Because, of course, Africa is a uniform place.
Posted by: Katkinkate | October 18, 2009 9:12 PM
I wonder if they'd bother investigating if any of the 'missionaries' got killed?
Posted by: Rorschach | October 18, 2009 9:14 PM
Context is the article about Nigeria above.
And while degree and extent of poverty will vary obviously, superstition is widespread throughout Africa, or dont you agree?
Posted by: Airbag Moments | October 18, 2009 9:59 PM
Who can say what's right or wrong? What's important is to _teach the controversy_ over whether or not to torture and kill little boy witches.
Posted by: stogoe | October 18, 2009 10:42 PM
There, I fixed it.
Posted by: Katkinkate | October 18, 2009 11:10 PM
Posted by: Globle Warren Terrism @ 8
"... Sadly, the only good way to fight this is to hire mercenaries to kill the pastors and collect so much a head."
Sounds good, but unfortunately it could easily backfire. You'd have to have someone picking out the intended pastors for execution so they don't just kill anyone and claim they're a pastor to get the money. Also it would tend to create martyrs out of them and spark a 'holy war'.
No, the key is knowledge and education, for both the parents and the kids. But that's too hard and their governments don't give a sh*t beyond their own bank accounts.
Posted by: Bacopa | October 19, 2009 12:07 AM
A "witch child" supposedly from a satanic cult in Gilmer Texas was was murdered in foster care during the last of the Satanic Panics of the 1990s. You can read all about it in Bruce Perry's "The Boy who was Raised as a Dog".
Posted by: Xenithrys
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October 19, 2009 12:50 AM
Nicol @ #9:
Mustard Seed School isn't in Nigeria, but it's a great start in Uganda, and who knows, it might spread with support: http://newhumanist.org.uk/appeals
Posted by: Nicol | October 19, 2009 1:47 AM
Thanks a bunch, Xenithrys!
Posted by: Madnolin | October 19, 2009 2:27 AM
"And while degree and extent of poverty will vary obviously, superstition is widespread throughout Africa, or dont you agree?"
I agree that it feels like there's more superstition in places where that superstition embodies traditions that are different than the superstitions that one's own culture is immersed in.
Posted by: maarten | October 19, 2009 2:39 AM
You guys should check out HAWK Africa (Humanist Against WitchKilling). It´s a secular nigerian organisation working against witch killing in Nigeria.
Posted by: Richard Eis
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October 19, 2009 4:20 AM
-Or have European Christians just gotten too lazy to do any proper evangelization themselves? -
You can probably blame the fire and brimstone attitude on the fact that early missionaries from America and Europe were usually pretty extreme and could pretty much preach as they wanted.
In other words, it's largely our fault...
and by our fault I mean christians.
Posted by: Annie M | October 19, 2009 4:31 AM
It's appalling and disgusting beyond belief.
I think the most proactive way to help is support those people on the coal face in Nigeria et al. I think Stepping Stones Nigeria is worth checking out...
http://www.steppingstonesnigeria.org
And now in Australia:
http://www.steppingstonesnigeria.org.au
Absolutely no affiliations, I just admire the work they do, especially after watching the BBC doco on the child witches. It broke our family's hearts watching this. 8-(
Posted by: ExOrganist
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October 19, 2009 4:42 AM
Re Sastra@16 - I love the way that apologists for this kind of thing - both in African countries and in the West - instantly label any criticism as colonialist or racist. Because, of course, African countries roundly reject colonialism and the idea of foreigners telling them what to do - oh, except where teh gheys are concerned, when they are happy to import American fundamentalists to tell them how to "strengthen" their colonial-era anti-sodomy laws (the proposed Ugandan law would make it an imprisonable offence even to speak in favour of LGBT rights). Meanwhile, anyone who protests is met with shouts of "Imperialist!" and smug postmodernist babble.
Posted by: strangest brew | October 19, 2009 4:52 AM
It is the 'revelation polka' in Africa these days...
The Church of England most likely will implode under the strain of trying to be liberal to all men!
Already African Bishops are agitating for a breakaway league to preach the word...and are the most homophobic right wing reactionary jeebus clones possible!
Usually spouting creationist nonsense and hell for them is a reality...these are fundies to the hilt...with a twist of black magic!
Roman Catholics are going to be squeezed until they pop membership wise....so there is great circling and feinting of tactics...There is an audience out there worth billions...a fact not lost on the competitors.
In order to cement and snare the populace a few blind eyes are being offered or just being averted...the Church both Papal and Anglican authorities are allowing local jeebus ju ju merchants carte blanche operating parameters in order to not piss them off and ruin a working relationship to spread the brand of poisonous rancid jeebus snake oil that they are trying to peddle.
This is not about offering aid...it is recruiting for jeebus..simple like so and apparently god will understand anyway...tis a win win situation!
The christian church in the west are ..as usual...up to their smelly sweaty armpits in deals and collaboration to foist jeebus on a population that traditionally practises African spirituality (Voodoo or Black magic with a touch of Shamanism)...Pastors ministers or priests sharing the pulpit with a dead chicken or a murdered witch or two does not mean failure...just opportunity.
Posted by: Michael Good | October 19, 2009 5:00 AM
This might be worth a blog entry.
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/other/story/Family-of-woman-killed-at-Sedona-sweat-lodge/anOabxeh2EmLllo0TcCpxA.cspx
Posted by: Rational Ugandan | October 19, 2009 5:14 AM
Hi I'm from Uganda (in East Africa) and in my country indeed we are suffering with the 'born-again' explosion.
These churches are springing up everywhere over here - every street corner has one, with half-educated, semi-literate, wannabe-Benny-Hinn 'pastors' working very hard to fleece unsuspecting believers. Indeed, church is GOOD BUSINESS in my country. Our pastors live in lakeside mansions, drive Hummers, and throw lavish weddings all the expense of their flock. Thankfully, witch hunts haven't been common here.
The reason these charismatic churches are flourishing in my country because it has found, among the people here, an already superstitious mindset. The Pentecostal tenet of 'spiritual warfare' fits perfectly in a society that throughout its history has attributed all of its misfortune to the spirits of ancestors. So the ancestors' spirits are now referred to as Satan's 'demons', and the 'antidote' to these demonic attacks is of course - JESUS! Amen!
This is the nonsense they peddle. According to them everything from marital problems, barrenness, unemployment, failure to get a visa to the UK is the fault of demons - and sadly people here buy this utter bullshit. Not even university educated Ugandans are immune to these superstitions - but this is no surprise. Pentecostalism comes wrapped in a certain veneer of American sophistication that makes it seem credible even to our educated adults.
(Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism has been here since the late 19th century but they have not been anywhere as sucessful as the Pentecostals in capitalising on the Africans' centuries-old fascination with 'spirits'.)
It's time for African rationalists to step up the plate and speak out on this kind of stupidity.
In Uganda we have a few atheists, and some of them have had their articles published in the main local newspapers. If your interested you can read some of them here:
http://www.monitor.co.ug/artman/publish/sunday_life/Atheists_are_not_wrong_78369.shtml
and
http://www.monitor.co.ug/artman/publish/sunday_life/It_s_highly_unlikely_that_God_exists_91582.shtml
Wish us luck!
Posted by: Andreas Johansson
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October 19, 2009 7:25 AM
Whose fire and brimstone attitude? I'm afraid you've lost me completely here.
Posted by: TheLady | October 19, 2009 7:52 AM
Not to be a naysayer, PZ, but I think the term "greed" for people struggling to fend of starvation is... Misapplied.
I saw a documentary once by a UK filmmaker, who went and lived with an Ethiopian family for a month or so. They suffered from the terrible drought, as well as the poverty of the soil and lack of crop diversity, and had a very difficult life right at the edge of famine. The only nights when the baby didn't cry from hunger were Sundays - because when they went to church, the Eucharist wasn't a little wafer, it was a hearty hunk of wheat bread - the only one they would see all week.
Accusing people under those conditions of being greedy or gullible is quite cruel I think. By all means lambast the manipulative, murderous, and actually genuinely greedy, people proselytising to the Nigerians, but let's not forget why Christianity is such an easy product to market in the first place: it appears to speak sympathetically the pain and fear of its victims, while at the same time making sure that pain and fear are never in short supply.
Posted by: dk | October 19, 2009 8:00 AM
Dearly beloved, our reading today is from the Book of Jello, chapter 3, verses 19-22.
All religions make me wanna throw up / All religions make me sick / All religions make me wanna throw up / All religions suck.
Posted by: rbieri | October 19, 2009 8:07 AM
I just came back from Tanzania and it's pretty much the same situation. Absurd superstitions are very common there even among educated people. One example: they believe that albino skin and bones can cure any disease, reason why albinos are persecuted, their limbs are amputated or they are killed. Very disturbing and sad.
Posted by: Cassdog | October 19, 2009 8:40 AM
I am as skeptical of an atheist as anybody but my wife just went to Lagos Nigeria to help mobilize the people to institute local government and planning. The best way to do this was to work with a charitable christian church. All the people she met were incredibly friendly and kindhearted. My wife gave me the sense that christianity had been a positive step away from some traditional tribal practices such as multiple wives and eye-for-an-eye violence. Plus there are many devout muslims there. The church also represented the ONLY safety net some of these people had. A lady had lost her husband and couldn't work herself and in one church service, they raised enough money for her to live for a few years. If you want to survive in a difficult location with no community, little social services, no legal system, police support, etc, you have to belong to a church. Obviously none of this has strong relevance to the practice of this disgusting parasitic church. I just thought I would share my wife's eye-opening experience in Nigeria.
Posted by: Darrell E
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October 19, 2009 11:21 AM
and
I think you read the main post too quickly. It is very clear "who" PZ is accusing of greed, the leaders of the churches. Or, in your own words, "the manipulative, murderous, and actually genuinely greedy, people proselytising to the Nigerians ...". I don't understand how one could so misunderstand the OP on this point. Do you have strong preconceptions about PZ, or the "New Atheists" in general, or did you just really want to say what you wrote so badly that you just kind of crammed it in even though it did not really fit?
The OP does not mention "gullible", but what is the problem with saying that the people that are being suckered by these pastors are gullible? They sure as hell are gullible. Now, I understand that like the word "ignorant" the word "gullible" is often used in a derogatory manner, but that is not a part of the meaning of either word. I also understand some of the reasons why so many of these people are so gullible. Just because I understand that a large percentage of people of any pedigree that where left to endure the lives that these people have lived would also be just as gullible, that if I myself had lived such a life that I would very likely be as gullible, does not change the fact that "gullible" very accurately describes these people.
Posted by: Richard Eis
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October 19, 2009 11:35 AM
-Whose fire and brimstone attitude?-
The new african preachers making headway in America. Can't for the life of me remember where i read about it though.
Posted by: Nebula99
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October 19, 2009 3:17 PM
#46, I can understand how you might have misinterpreted the OP, but I'm pretty sure PZ was referring to the pastors as greedy. They are willing to make false promises and incite violence against innocent children to keep their flocks in line (perhaps "deceit" might have been a better word, but that's semantics). We can all agree that the ordinary members of these congregations are the victims here.
Posted by: Benedict | October 19, 2009 4:26 PM
Yeah --- damned religion. The world would be a much better place if atheistic secular humanism reigned. We'd have leaders like Joseph Stalin, and Pol Pot, and Mao Tse Tung who could exterminate masses of people based on political and social agendas rather than religious agendas.
Just curious, on what grounds does an atheist ground his/her morality? No God, no objective moral truths. This is not my opinion --- logic demands it.
It's funny how the atheistic west has adopted the Judeo-Christian morality code and forsaken the religion(s) from whence that structure of morality arises.
An atheist taking the high moral road (what an absurdity that is).
You might want to weigh this incident over and against the profound positive impact that the Catholic Church (and other Christian churches) are having on quality of life in places like Uganda and Nigeria. But of course, your agenda would leave you no time to actually consider the truth.
Good luck with your evangelization efforts in your false church of atheism, where you worship your false worldview of pure materialism and mechanism. When modern physics finely puts the kabosh on mechanism it will be interesting to see how atheists hijack other religious ideas in constructing whatever the hell it is you people believe in...oh yeah, that's right --- you don't believe in anything. God help us all.
”If God is dead, then all things are possible!” - Dostoevsky
Posted by: wrpd | October 19, 2009 5:32 PM
”If God is dead, then all things are possible!” - Dostoevsky
How is this a bad thing?
I have not heard anyone from the Catholic Church in Nigeria or Uganda speaking out about the draconian anti-gay laws.
The Anglicans are actually on record as supporting this evil.
Posted by: Chiroptera
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October 19, 2009 5:38 PM
Benedict, #53: Just curious, on what grounds does an atheist ground his/her morality? No God, no objective moral truths.
I'm curious, too: what keeps someone who believes there are "objective moral truths" from committing heinous evil acts in the name of his "truths"? If history is any guide, the answer is "nothing".
Posted by: MAJeff, OM
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October 19, 2009 6:37 PM
Benedict
Oh, look, Nazinger showed up.
Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | October 19, 2009 6:44 PM
How funny that person whose religion demanded that countless people be slaughtered in the name of their Lord is now trying to lecture us on morals.
Hello Dipshit, MORALS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE TO YOUR CULT!
Posted by: Darrell E
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October 19, 2009 6:45 PM
Ahhhh! We agree on one point at least.
You are revealing your ignorance and lack of comprehension here. Explain how any of the loathsome dictators you have named could be considered secular humanists. If you abide by any reasonable definition, as opposed to one made up by you or your favorite religious apologist custom designed to support your beliefs, it is not possible because none of them were secular humanists. They all behaved as if human life were of no value, except as resources to increase their own power and wealth. As for atheism being a cause of these dictators behavior, if I were not already familiar with your kinds attachment to this argument even though it has been refuted a myriad of times in many different ways, I would have thought that you were joking.
This is pretty funny. You sound like you just finished up a class on the standard arguments for christian god belief 101 and have just been let loose to go get those evil atheists. Go back and tell your masters that they really need to update their course material. To put it in simple terms if you believe what you wrote here you are a friggen moron. I can understand spouting this off as an insult, even if you don't really believe it is true, but if you really believe this? Friggen moron. Just to touch on a few of the points that many others have stated many other times in response to this bullshit argument, if you get your morality from god then why do pick and choose which parts of the bible to abide by and which parts to ignore or consider allegory or myth? And, if you get your morals from god then why are the numbers of believers in prison over represented compared to the general population? If you believe that there are objective moral truths backed by a god, then why do you and other believers find it so easy to behave contrary to the way your god prescribes? Why does the catholic church invest so much time, effort and money to conceal the habitual child rape that has occurred within its own hierocracy? By the example that believers have provided, you would have to be a pretty sick fuck to believe that your morality is better than anybody else's.
Another stale dead argument. All of the worthwhile morals to be found in the bible where practiced by others before, during and after the period of time that the bible was compiled. While it is true that christianity is a part of our cultural heritage, why on earth would we want to hold onto to bronze age bullshit that we now know is nothing more than myth, and that is only important in a literary and anthropological sense? You need to learn more about the history of the human race. Your brainwashing is showing.
I bet you are one of those people that thinks that as long as you are not using profanity that you are being civil. Or maybe one of those people that believes that it is just fine for you to be uncivil, or even to lie, as long as it is done in support of your lord jesus christ. Let's hope you don't go to far with that "if it's done in jesus name it's okay" thinking. As you may be aware by what I have written above this statement sent me into paroxysms of irony. You have a serious case of the brainwashing.
Feel free to give us a list of verifiable accounts of your claim here. Profound my ass. Actually profound might fit, but not in the positive way that you believe. Like I said, you have a serious case of the brainwashing. They must have gotten to you at a very vulnerable time in your life. I'm sorry, I wish I could help.
Uhhh let's see. Projection followed by ignorance, then wishful thinking, then more projection. Then a little dash of bullshit and finally worthless plea to a non existent entity used as an exclamation. Your god can not help you. Only you and your fellow human beings can help you. But first you will have to give up your god delusions, and you got it bad, real bad.
Just curious, but will you have to confess any of the sins you committed in your post?
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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October 19, 2009 6:52 PM
Not needed. Evolution does quite well with morals, including the golden rule, which godbots couldn't find and apply if their life depended on it. But then, morals, like deities and religion, have always been a man-made construct. Category error on your part. Your god doesn't exist and your babble is fiction. We are waiting for you to present evidence, preferably physical evidence, otherwise.Posted by: RamblinDude
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October 19, 2009 10:24 PM
You’re babbling. Where do you think us atheists came from? Many of us grew up as brainwashed as you. We got better. I’ve listened to innumerable sermons pound into people’s heads the doctrine that you can’t be a moral, responsible, or even a happy person unless you have Christ in your heart. If you never investigate the truth of this for yourself then you will always remain an unthinking, typical Christian, trained to be subservient and happy about it.
Posted by: TomRiddle
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October 20, 2009 1:04 AM
@Cassdog #49
Try this version of your post instead...
I am as ardent of a supporter of freedom as anybody but my wife just went to Lagos Nigeria to help mobilize the people to institute local government and planning. The best way to do this was to support abusive husbands. All the people she met were incredibly friendly and kindhearted. My wife gave me the sense that abusive husbands had been a positive step away from some traditional tribal practices such as multiple wives and eye-for-an-eye violence. Plus there are many abusive boyfriends there. The abusive husbands also represented the ONLY safety net some of these people had. A lady had lost her husband and couldn't work herself and her new abusive husband made enough money for her to live for a few years. If you want to survive in a difficult location with no community, little social services, no legal system, police support, etc, you have to submit to an abusive husband. Obviously none of this has strong relevance to the practice of terrorizing your dependants through violence...
It has every relevance. The fact that they provide meaningful support does nothing to excuse the misery they spread. I think most people would agree that no matter how down on her luck she may be, a woman is better off struggling alone than relying on the support of an abusive husband.
For the record, I am not equating all churches to abusive husbands - just the ones that try to justify their atrocities by sharing a meager portion of their wealth. I'll let you decide what percentage that constitutes.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | October 20, 2009 1:38 AM
erm... I don't think that means what you think it means. Personally I suspect morals might well be mutually exclusive with his cult, "mutually exclusive" meaning two things that exclude each other, i.e. they cannot exist simultaneously.Just sayin'
Posted by: Gav | October 20, 2009 4:45 AM
To those (#32, #37) doubting that superstition is more widespread in Africa, this may be of interest:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/114211/Alabamians-Iranians-Common.aspx
Posted by: Radwaste | October 25, 2009 10:52 AM
So. Now that Sarah Palin has been successfully attacked - again - where is the concern about President Obama's church, such an issue during his campaign?