Pharyngula

Posted by: atomjack | October 12, 2009 10:32 PM

Well, that explains it! All those "wine tasting" parties us physicss majors had, and the biologists were over there with succulent roast baby. Had I only known!

Man, those Watchtower publishers are pathetic. ANYONE with a college education is on the road to perdition? dayam. I'll take it.

Posted by: Zeno | October 12, 2009 10:36 PM

Oh, damn! I've been guilty of #2 more times than I can count. Successfully, too. Many of my students have gone on to universities! (I feel so dirty and guilty now. It really adds to the fun of counseling students to pursue higher education.)

P.S.: Thanks to our governor's change of heart (he vetoed the bill last year) California public schools can now officially mark Harvey Milk Day in remembrance of the value of working for equal rights for everyone. You are not forgotten, Harvey!

Posted by: astronomer24 | October 12, 2009 10:38 PM

Haha I probably have this Watchtower. Maybe I will go through the whole damn stack of them I have and find this article and bring it up this week. I study with Jehovah Witnesses (J-dubs as I like to call them) on the weekends for the hell of it and they bring me a new one of these mags every week or so. Its kinda fun, I currently have one of them reading The Greatest Show On Earth AND The God Delusion! It might be Dawkins overload for him.

Posted by: Don Smith | October 12, 2009 10:39 PM

Hey! How come no one told me about the bonobo sex? You could be addressing Dr. Smith right now!

"Oh, the pain"

Posted by: Glen Davidson | October 12, 2009 10:41 PM

At least they're more forthright than the Unification Church's and Marc Ross's use of higher education solely to destroy it's standards and to usurp its legitimacy.

There really wouldn't be much problem with IDiots if they were simply as honest as the JWs regarding higher ed.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

Posted by: DaveL | October 12, 2009 10:49 PM

Well, you know what happens when they join "the intelligent, educated segment of the culture."

Posted by: astronomer24 | October 12, 2009 10:54 PM

Of the J-dubs Ive meet there are a surprising ratio (ok 2 out of the 10-15 I've met, surprised me a least) of college educated. Ive studied with one with his PhD in Math and met another going for a post-doc in Astrophysics. Though maybe Boulder J-dubs are unusual. They do have some disgusting beliefs though. Sexism seems to be a tenant of theirs though they just get it strait from the Bible and they all can't wait to die and be resurrected on paradise earth.

Posted by: Cuttlefish, OM | October 12, 2009 10:57 PM

I am oh, so glad they mentioned
That the prof was well-intentioned--
It's an adjective that lets me know that I am off the hook.
See, I know that I am evil
And each student I deceive'll
Get me extra points from Satan (I collect them in a book).
We know higher education
Is the ruin of this nation--
That (with smokes, and drugs, and alcohol) it paves a path to Hell.
But these darned Jehovah's Witnesses
Know what our country's fitness is;
These meddling kids have foiled my plans to cast my evil spell.
And Proverbs 6 (verse 28)
Is, sadly, just a little late--
I've walked on coals before (and what is more, so has my daughter!)
No scorching, redness, pain or blister,
(I think the Bible's lying, mister!)
No need for bandage, ointment, salve, no need for even water!
But cheer up, guys, it's not so bad,
This error-ridden silly ad,
Although it reeks of bullshit, well, at least it shows they tried;
And the kids they aim at reaching,
They can see what this is teaching--
In the fight to mold our children... it's the Jeesus folks who lied.

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | October 12, 2009 11:00 PM

Damn! I did it wrong. I became an atheist while I was still in high school. I cannot blame my deviancy on college.

Posted by: Kristine | October 12, 2009 11:11 PM

The thing that gets me is that, Watchtower also often displays that disgusting graphic of people petting lions - you know, after Jesus finally puts down his latte and returns their phone calls. Hey, kids! Let's go pet some lions! Let's bring the family to the Creation Museum, and then pet lions at the zoo!

Of course, if you're petting lions while drinking a beer while smoking a joint while at the same writing a thesis and being gay, then it's a bad idea.

Posted by: Wowbagger, OM | October 12, 2009 11:17 PM

Well, as Martin Luther said, reason is the enemy of faith - can't have the kids learning, can we? They might realise just how empty, baseless and flat-out nonsensical religious beliefs are.

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | October 12, 2009 11:28 PM

WTF? "dravity?" That should be depravity

Posted by: flyonthewall | October 12, 2009 11:33 PM

oooh i love gateway drugs!!!!

god gave them to us to test our strength.
and we told him to shove that test up his ass!

Posted by: cpsmith | October 12, 2009 11:39 PM

A Jehovah's Witness was visiting me on a regular basis ever since I returned to the city to continue school. When I told her I had just gotten a bachelor's degree in biochemistry she brought me a copy of AWAKE which dealt with the topic of evolution. I don't think it had the effect on me she intended. The only decent argument in the entire magazine was that if evolution is true then the bible makes no sense. That much I could agree with, but unfortunately the rest was an astounding blend of misunderstandings, quote-mining and what had to be deliberate lies. The Jehovah's Witness returned a week after dropping the magazine off and she asked what I thought of it. I told her exactly what I thought of it. She never came back.

Posted by: Jello | October 12, 2009 11:41 PM

Wait, so if every Jehovah's Witness does as this pamphlet instructs, we and our children won't have to worry about competing with or having to put up with these god walloping doofs in the higher education system, job market and political elections? Ummm, what the down side? Seriously, if their solution to the 'problem' of liberal universities is to call a full retreat then we've just scored a major victory without really trying. Now if only we could get all the other sects of bible bangers to forsake college the Republican party would all but cease to exist. One can dream.

Posted by: nomen-nescio.myopenid.com | October 12, 2009 11:50 PM

"[...]Or can a man walk upon the coals and his feet themselves not be scorched?"

well yes, actually, that's a fairly simple trick routinely done for (and with) tourists in certain locales. i guess the bible got yet another thing wrong.

Posted by: John A. | October 12, 2009 11:56 PM

Having grown up in a JW household ... it is an EVIL EVIL organization. What they do to their followers is nothing short of brainwashing and mental abuse. The absolute FEAR they ingrain in you in order to keep you in their "happy" little flock is nothing short of suffocating. If you displease them, even in thought, they will "expel" you. What that means is that you are still allowed to attend their meetings, but no one, not even your family is allowed to speak to you or acknowledge your existence (less they be tainted). Or face expulsion themselves. And since you are not allowed to have friends outside of their group ... then that means that you are effectively cut off from the world, left completely alone. A terrible thing, nothing short of torture. I left as soon as I turned 18, and moved away to college. I refused to write them a letter renouncing my "membership" and declaring myself an Apostate, as they demanded.

The first 18 years of my life where a living hell, especially since I was a secret atheist since I was first able to reason (age 6 or so). Oh, and did I mention that I'm gay? Yeah ... that went well. My brother is gay as well (in denial, although he "confessed" to me) and he believes that he is a terrible sinner for having such feelings, and spends all of his energy in that religion ... even though it's killing him inside. And he won't talk to me, because you know ... I'm worse than a murdered and child rapist ... I'm an APOSTATE!

My parents are good people, they really are, I realize that now. It's just so sad that they are so thoroughly brainwashed. It saddens me to watch my younger siblings grow up in that environment ... but there is hope. My little brother, when he was 5 y/o said to my father "Jehovah does not exist, I can't see him". Wise words from the mouths of younglings indeed.

I am now gladly the owner of a graduate degree, so they can shove their Watchtower into the deepest recesses of their anal cavities. So deep in fact, that it ruptures an artery, requiring immediate blood transfusions. Which, of course, they will refuse because of some archaic verse in the Bible that they themselves can't even explain.

Morons ...

Posted by: AZSuperman01 | October 13, 2009 12:24 AM

I'm surprised the "evil" schooling starts at the university. I almost expect it to say: "A well-intentioned teacher encourages you to pursue a high-school education"

Posted by: Eliot Self | October 13, 2009 12:27 AM

Spoiler Warning. I'm one of Jehovah's witnesses, for those that are not interested in hearing from one of Jehovah's witnesses' please move on to the next post. I can appreciate the views shared here. Typical mainstream religion is not building, but breaking down what peace, unity and education that has been gathered over history. We can all recall the dark ages when the world's religions of the time thought it best to do away with any knowledge to the common man. Witnesses do not limit their training and eduction. In my case, the witnesses who helped and enlightened us, my wife and I now have the joy of helping others learn the truths of the Bible. Removing none truths from what many have been taught about the meaning of life. I honestly feel that education from Jehovah God is the most rewarding of all my higher education. It is unlike any other educational program on earth in its breadth and comprehensiveness. Jehovah God has trained his Witnesses to teach Bible truth in a way that touches both the mind and the heart. That is what motivates me to continue to learn. My wife and I feel thankful for the life we now enjoy and for the privilege of using our education to serve the Sovereign of the universe, Jehovah God. Don't be so quick to judge a man by the gossip that is spread by those that have no real understanding of what they read. Knowledge is the highest and most beneficial path one can have in life. Choose that path with care.

Posted by: skeptifem | October 13, 2009 12:37 AM

I loved those weird magazines. My mom would take them to humor people and I would read them.

I got one about the dangers of MDMA, some high schoolers must have screwed with whoever was writing it because there was nothing but hilarious bs from start to end. An "ex user" said that people take it to get into a half awake, half asleep trance like state called "getting cabbaged". Yeahhhh.

Posted by: truthspeaker | October 13, 2009 12:46 AM

Jello, it is of no advantage to the rest of us if a segment of our population is encouraged to be uneducated and ignorant. Sure, they can't compete with us for jobs - which means some of them won't be able to earn a living, and one way or another people who can't support themselves end up being a burden on society.

Posted by: MadScientist | October 13, 2009 12:54 AM

I highly recommend the firewalking; just don't take instructions from the bible or you're likely to hurt yourself (you know what an asshole that god is). The blazing tits mentioned in the sentence before the firewalking gives me some ideas ... then again the Japanese had kids' TV shows with missile-tits over 30 years ago so I doubt I can come up with something original in the fiery bosom department.

Posted by: wheatdogg.myopenid.com | October 13, 2009 12:59 AM

Wait until I tell ...

Hm. Did I mention I was an ESL teacher now? Pretend you didn't see that error.

Posted by: formosus | October 13, 2009 1:04 AM

@Eliot Self -

It's a good posting, and I give you 0.1 Timecubes for it. Mostly comprehensible with a bit of nuttiness towards the beginning, and the excellent use of 'Jehovah God'.

If knowledge is so good, why do you only seek religious 'knowledge'? Assuming your god existed, wouldn't it be great to actually know things about the world you really live in, so you could appreciate it more? Or is there something inherently wrong with knowing how things work, and something good about things being "mysteries"?

Also, if your god is all powerful, what the hell does he need you to serve him for? He needs no service if he is truly almighty. Any god that demands worship by lesser beings is just being a prick.

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | October 13, 2009 1:11 AM

I think that Eliot Self should get off of the computer. This is because the internet was built by people who went to colleges and universities.

My wife and I feel thankful for the life we now enjoy and for the privilege of using our education to serve the Sovereign of the universe, Jehovah God.

Why would an all powerful being need the unworthy likes of you to help him out?

Posted by: Charlie Foxtrot | October 13, 2009 1:51 AM

Hang on ...so didn't 'Eliot Self' just now post a profile on the internet?
Blasphemer!
.
("All I said was "That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah"!")

Posted by: Riaan Moll | October 13, 2009 2:04 AM

"Would you like a tract with that, sir?"

Y'all know of course that flipping burgers is God's work.

Posted by: Stu | October 13, 2009 2:28 AM

Well, considering this is coming from a cult that feels the need to bang on my front door every other sunday, it makes me wonder whether you are being inadvertantly glib or deliberately lying.

Hi, clueless wonder. Do you or do you not believe that:

- Humans are now living in the last days of the present world order.

- After the current world order is destroyed at Armageddon, surviving righteous Jehovah's Witnesses and resurrected individuals will have the opportunity to live forever in an earthly paradise, ruled by Christ and 144,000 humans raised to heaven.

So for starters, you do believe that about 6,000,000,000 currently living human beings are fucked because they did not get the golden ticket.

For that matter, how exactly does your dogma explain how there might be more than 144,000 people that REALLY, TRULY believe? Is there a most-believingest caste that we don't know about?

Or (and I'm just spit-balling here), could it be that at the time this clap-trap was written, 144,000 was a totally rational number of people saved since there were at most 250,000 people in the world that the writers of the bible knew about?

I know, I know. Sanity and all that.

I can appreciate the views shared here.

No, you cannot, because your basic world view is inherently irrational. You're not in the reality-based community. You're a space monkey. You're not operating on the same plane of reality and/or existence as us in the real world. You're making shit up and trying to sell your shit as cheeseburgers. Your entire presence here amounts to trying to tell people that your cowpie is an actual cheeseburger. Prove it. Prove anything. I double-dog dare you.

Typical mainstream religion is not building, but breaking down what peace, unity and education that has been gathered over history.

Typical mainstream religion has been, is, and will always be about controlling the minds of the gullible. If you don't see that, guess what group you're in.

We can all recall the dark ages when the world's religions of the time thought it best to do away with any knowledge to the common man.

Do away? Fuck, did you take any history classes in high school? No, it was about limiting history, shaping history, and most of all shaping history's lessons.

Witnesses do not limit their training and eduction.

Yes, they try very hard to be Jesuits. And the effort would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. Name me Witnesses that attained degrees in biology. For starters. I am willing to bet that I can do a Stepiscopalian challenge on your sorry, reaching, I-will-do-anything-to-justify-this-crap ass. For any Witness in any discipline you can name, I will produce a Steve that leans Episcopalian.

In my case, the witnesses who helped and enlightened us

Smoke. Agh, smoke. You're blowing smoke. Helped how? Enlightened how? If you're not willing to share that, you are more than welcome to pack your pathetic little missionary bags and get the fuck out.

my wife and I now have the joy of helping others learn the truths of the Bible.

- Define "truth".

- Name one.

Come on, go on, you know you're supposed to. Even with your earlier lie about not having to. Come on buddy, you know you have it in you. Come on, tell us. One truth. Just one. You know you have one. If you don't, well shit, you're fucked and you should probably find a very high bridge. You do have one, don't you? You get up in the morning, don't you? What makes you get up in the morning? Share! Come on, buddy, share!

Removing none truths from what many have been taught about the meaning of life.

That's not even a sentence. I almost feel sorry for asking you the above.

I honestly feel that education from Jehovah God is the most rewarding of all my higher education.

Please google education. Yikes. Overton window anyone?

It is unlike any other educational program on earth

Yes, because it does not feature knowledge, advancement, insight or truth.

Jehovah God has trained his Witnesses to teach Bible truth in a way that touches both the mind and the heart.

Well, I have asked you very simple questions previously. Since it seems to be so simple, either you answer those questions, you are a shitty Witness, or you are a false Witness. The way you have presented it, you'd better get typin'.

That is what motivates me to continue to learn.

Liar. What do you know of genetics?

Actually, you could get me 50% of the way towards JW if you could simply explain natural selection and it's place in God's plan.

My wife and I feel thankful for the life we now enjoy

Awesome. Do you have health insurance?

for the privilege of using our education

Wait, what. What fucking education? Did I pay for you do become irrational?

Don't be so quick to judge a man by the gossip that is spread by those that have no real understanding of what they read.

I read that you believe in something on a level with Santa Claus. I fully understand that. YOU don't.

Knowledge is the highest and most beneficial path one can have in life.

*KABOOM*

Yes, that was my head exploding from the dumbest thing I've heard this week.

Posted by: Darkl1ght3r | October 13, 2009 3:30 AM

Former JW here...

Eliot Self. I can remember when I would have said the exact same thing. It hasn't even been that long ago. But here's the deal... I went to college (EVIL!), and I acquired critical thinking skills. I took a class that dealt a great deal with logical fallacies and how to avoid them. It blew a hole in JW dogma the size of the Grand Canyon. I realized the Watchtower was a textbook example of how NOT to construct a logical argument. I started investigating the basic claims of the church and found them wanting. Worse yet, I found I was being lied to.

Did you know that Jerusalem was NOT destroyed in 607 B.C.E.?

Did you know that they've predicted "the end" (or some other momentous event) numerous times, such as 1879, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1942, 1975, and 2000?

Did you know that they claim to have proclaimed prior to 1914 that that year was to be the start of the "last days", yet their own magazines show that prior to 1914, and even up to 1932 iirc, they were claiming the year 1799 was the start of the last days?

Did you know they've deliberately and dishonestly altered passages in their NWT version of the Bible?

This is just the TIP of the ice berg and what I can think of off the top of my head. I could pull out a 6-inch stack of research and give you many more specific examples if you like.

They do not value knoweledge. Truth has nothing to fear from information. Only lies need ignorance in order to thrive.

Here's the problem with your concept of knoweledge: You are told what knoweledge you are allowed to have, and what value you are to place on that knoweledge. You are then told that all other forms of knoweledge are inferior, and should thus be ignored. You are being told this by an organization whos best interests are served by it's members only studying and placing value on the "knoweledge" that they provide.

Do you see the problem here? Not seeking higher education and "outside" sources of knoweledge serves the ORGANIZATIONS interests. Not the members. Not yours.

Does it hurt God for you to simply know both sides of the argument? I assume you would say no.

Does it hurt YOU to know both sides of the argument? Of course not. This is the only way that we can make an honest, informed decision. Even you Bible says at Proverbs 18:13 that "When anyone is replying to a matter before he hears it, that is foolishness on his part and a humiliation."

Does it hurt the JW organization for you to know both sides of the argument? YES, if what they are presenting is not true.

Do you see how it is obviously and ONLY in THEIR best intersts to keep you ignorant?

You are not serving God, or "God's Organization". You are serving a cold, mechanical, man-made monster. You are serving men. I would even go so far as to say that you are a slave to a mind-virus.

I hope you get out someday and start thinking for yourself.

Posted by: Raiko | October 13, 2009 4:06 AM

Or can a man walk upon the coals and his feet themselves not be scorched?

Come on - walking on coals is one of the a cheapest circus tricks ever!

Posted by: Fil | October 13, 2009 4:20 AM

"Their #2 certainly be far less foul than yr own."

Says Trochi on a machine and system invented by university educated scientists and engineers.

No tertiary education, no fancy toys, no new medicines, surgical techniques or equipment, no new anything interesting, moron.

Posted by: Richard Eis | October 13, 2009 5:36 AM

Funnily enough, I have met two JW's (that I know of) and they ar really nice people. They just have a strange and rather boring (to my mind) hobby.

Are english JW's different to their american counterparts? Or is it just the english culture of not shoving your religion in peoples faces so much.

I've got to say this is the first time I remember JW's being mentioned on the Pharyngula site in a long time.

oh...Welcome Eliot Self. Stick around, you will probably see a fascinatingly different world to your own. But be careful. The flying monkeys bite.

Posted by: darvolution proponentsist | October 13, 2009 6:19 AM

Here's the obligatory motivational that I figure this blog post requires.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 13, 2009 7:10 AM

Judging from that list I must be the most wicked person alive.

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger | October 13, 2009 7:17 AM

Eliot Self:

"Jehovah God" sounds like an awesome dude, but nowhere near as awesome as "HeavenlyFatherAlmightyGodinNameGod'sSonJesusChristLordSaviorMessiah"!

Posted by: MorboKat | October 13, 2009 7:50 AM

Had to come out of lurk to say something here... but so hard to type for laughter.

I love the JW's (or "Jo's Ho's" as they are called 'round these parts). I hunt them for sport.

Seriously.

Every time I move (which has been 6 times in the past 10 years), they show up at my door. I scare the living crap out of them and they never come back. The best occasion was the first time I scared them; 13 years old with hamburger meat defrosting in the sink. I painted my face with the blood before I answered the door. Immature, yes; but also fun.

I should probably be nicer... but if you're going to come to my door and bother me about your Sky Fairy and his limited-access-VIP-room of a Heaven... well, I think that gives me license to be just as bizarre as you are.

Also, no one told me that Grad School had BBQ Bonobo Orgies. I would have applied, had I known. I feel sad for having missed out on that level of awesome.

Posted by: Becky | October 13, 2009 8:11 AM

YEAH I won't have to spend eternity with the Jehovah's Witnesses!

It's not surprising that the Jehovah's Witnesses fear education. A marginally educated person could not possibly buy their bull shit.

Posted by: Zeno | October 13, 2009 8:37 AM

A Jehovah's Witness once told me that if one of our farm hands fell over dead in the field (we were standing in the front yard of my parents' home on the dairy farm), we could not resuscitate him through a process of evolution. I said, "Of course not." (Today I would just screw with him by saying, "Of course we could! You mean, you don't know how to do that?") I said, "But that just means you have no idea what evolution is." He was offended. Also stupid. I presume he got over the former, but I'll bet the latter lasted a long, long time.

Posted by: Insightful Ape | October 13, 2009 9:01 AM

Hey #37, if the truth comes only from the bible then why are you using the internet? In case you forgot, it was invented by those ungodly scientists with a higher education.
Oh and I chose the path of science and reason with care, thank you very much.

Posted by: idlemind | October 13, 2009 9:27 AM

JW would have a higher retention rate if they had magic underwear.

Posted by: AJ Milne | October 13, 2009 9:36 AM

A lifetime of depravity?

Hey now, I have to call for greater truth in advertising, here. That's overstating things...

I mean, higher education got me maybe a decade of depravity, tops...

After that, I almost reverted to semi-depraved. And honestly, a lot of people do. They may need retraining, refresher courses. A drug habit, a mistress/paramour, might have to get back in and do some additional post-grad work, y'know...

Point being: these things, you really do have to keep at them. Real depravity, it takes dedication, people (claps hands authoritatively)... There's no easy 'depraved fer life' formula. You gotta be in it for the long haul.

(/And I'm told eventually, pharmacological assistance frequently becomes increasingly necessary, too.)

Posted by: Upliftingmofo | October 13, 2009 10:20 AM

Oh my goodness, I can't believe I'm seeing this here.

A little background. Up until a few months ago I was serving as an Elder in a congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in a small town in northern California. I am not particularly well educated, although I did complete some college. I have worked and/or served in several capacities within the religion. Nearly all of my social contact is with other witnesses. I didn't continue my college education in order to pursue the full time preaching work. I can't get into much more detail, because I still don't want to be tracked down and disfellowshipped for disagreeing with the teachings of the Organization.

I have been reading the Pharyngula blog and PZ's posts and recommendations for a couple of years; also TalkOrigins.org, a couple of the other blogs here within ScienceBlogs, and a little bit of Dawkins and some others. I consider myself a relatively intelligent person, although I worked hard to not question things that I was told to not question.

But after digging and digging, and reading everything I could get my hands on - especially after I was appointed as an elder in 2007, I couldn't help but, over time, come to accept the scientific fact of evolution - and all that that entailed. Not wanting to change my lifestyle, or lose all of my friends and family, I kept my thoughts to myself until nearly suffering a mental breakdown a few months ago, the affects of which I am still struggling with. My own skeptical mentality has always struggled with the logical problems of the Watchtower's literature, but I looked past that as best I could because I believed that the witnesses had the best way of life, and that alone led me to believe that if there was a true religion, this must be it. But serving as an elder very clearly pushed that notion aside; the congregations I have served in have been a mess, people's lives were a mess and continue to be. But there is a level of secrecy imposed on the members and throughout the organization that prevents even most publishers from knowing what's going on with other publishers, and paints a picture of perfection that is not the least bit accurate but is accepted.

I have not yet been shunned by the congregation, but I receive calls, emails, and texts almost daily from people trying to track me down. They aren't doing it out of malice; these are people that care about me, but the scale is quickly tipping toward me becoming the enemy and soon I believe that everyone that I have developed any kind of relationship with is going to consider me worse than a murder, rapist, or pedophile. And don't get me wrong, I love the witnesses, especially as individuals; but the threat of disfellowshipping for any variance of thought is simply unethical and immoral.

I'm getting close to 40, and the relationships that I've built in a lifetime are still very valuable to me, even if the vast majority of those people still believe something that I don't. But because of unwillingness of the organization to accept any view other than the one handed down, and the Elders' attempts to probe my thinking to make sure it still lines up with the organization is nearly ruining my life.

That being said, learning things that are provable and actually TRUE has been an incredible experience, and I thank people like PZ Myers for making an effort to reach out to the general public to help us continue learning, even if it is through the old fashioned means of simply reading and wanting to know more. I will get through this difficult time, and be better for it because of him and people like him.

All in all, I guess my point is that educating the public can work; and even people who have thoroughly believed in Intelligent Design their entire life can find reason and come to accept logic, science and truth. Thank you for your efforts, and continue to be a positive influence and good people; in my opinion nothing will bring about a willingness to learn more than seeing that atheists, evolutionists, and all those other people we are taught to ignore or hate are actually ethical and moral people that we would very much lovee to have be a part of our lives.

Posted by: Tabby Lavalamp | October 13, 2009 10:36 AM

Ha! I knew it! This is why I intend on getting my diploma from a prestigious university based on my life experience rather than wasting four years "learning". Suckers.

Posted by: Hank Fox | October 13, 2009 10:45 AM

Upliftingmofo: Here's my bit of wisdom for what's happening to you:

In every major change in life, you start with a fairly comfortable steady state, you end with a different comfortable steady state, but between them is that period of discomfort I refer to as "turbulence."

Like quitting smoking: You start in familiar territory, your daily pack and a half and all the comfortable habits and behaviors that go with it, you end with better lung capacity and physical comfort. In between, you have to live through the turbulence -- all the denied cravings, the loss of all those familiar behaviors.

For any forced life change, say the unexpected loss of a job, there's no telling where you'll end up, other than to say there will be a time when you come to accept the situation.

But any change you CHOOSE -- quitting a job for one that pays more, for instance -- is a life-affirming reach for something better. Even though you have to go through an uncomfortable period of familiarization or retraining, in the end you’re going to gain something you know will make all the discomfort worthwhile.

The steady state you were in was affecting you in some strongly negative way. Even WITH all the friends and loved ones, some large part of you couldn't stand to remain in that stifling place.

The place you're headed, whether you can feel it or not right now, will contain friends and loved ones, but most of all a better sense of your own individuality, and an even stronger self-respect.

You just have to get through the turbulence. Keep that in mind as the coming events unfold. Every adult has been through one shitstorm or another -- you probably already know you can survive it. Just be confident that some really good things are going to happen – you wouldn’t be on this path if some part of you didn’t already know that.

By the way: Congratulations! -- I hope you know this is uncommonly courageous of you.

(And just so you know, my father was a Witness, so I'm not completely in the dark on what's happening in your life.)

Posted by: Upliftingmofo | October 13, 2009 10:46 AM

Love, not "lovee." Eesh.

Posted by: SEF | October 13, 2009 10:53 AM

Education: a gateway drug to a real life.

@ Upliftingmofo: You will be able to build new, better relationships which aren't based on oppression (ie religion, in this case). There's even always the tiny hope that any really good relationships from your past will continue - by having those people come to their senses and leave the JWs too (through refusing to shun you).

Posted by: Glen Davidson | October 13, 2009 10:56 AM

I've found that bonobo sex doesn't require university, it just demands a willing female bonobo. For my tastes, that is.

Sheesh, I didn't think that would actually have to be explained to people.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

Posted by: Susan | October 13, 2009 11:10 AM

Don't be so quick to judge a man by the gossip that is spread by those that have no real understanding of what they read.

Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | October 13, 2009 11:19 AM

Why is that article illustrated primarily with pictures of (gulp) same-sex couples?

Why is one man teaching the other man, and what are those shameless hussies watching on that (ooh, the word is so potentially lascivious) laptop?

Note also the Mona Lisa smile behind that fat doob!

Posted by: KemaTheAtheist | October 13, 2009 12:24 PM

@74

I did the scare thing too. I said "I'm an atheist" and they almost fell back down the stairs that lead up to my door.

Next time I might try the naked angle though. I would invite them in for cookies and sex. Offer them my daughter (I don't really have a daughter). That would be Biblically courteous of me, right?

The real question is what do I do if they accept?

Posted by: KemaTheAtheist | October 13, 2009 1:01 PM

@83

I can't help but put in my two cents here as well... I've gone though something similar (as I'm sure many other people did here as well), but with the catholic church.

Some friends never talked to me again and I still have trouble with my family over it, but friends that don't accept you for who you are aren't really friends and loved ones who don't love unconditionally for who you are can still be loved without forcing yourself to adhere to what they want to force you to be.

To me that's the biggest thing: being yourself. If you think you're having some mental problems now, they'll only get worse. Nothing is worth having that kind of mental anguish even family. Nothing will compare to the sense of freedom you'll have after dropping all the religion. It really is like the chains are taken away, the boulder is lifted from your shoulders, insert other freedom/liberation metaphors here.

Maybe it makes me calous (sp?), but my family would be worth that kind of freedom.

Posted by: Eamon Knight | October 13, 2009 3:30 PM

[JWs] are, comparatively speaking, a bunch of mentally ill people, according to various pieces of research.

Anyone who has spent time in certain dark corners of Usenet will be familiar with the disturbed and disturbing J*br**l. The internet would be a better, cleaner place if he, at least, had taken point #4 to heart and just stayed the hell away from it altogether.

Posted by: A. Noyd | October 13, 2009 4:24 PM

I guess "consequence" is one of those fancy words people learn at evil universities which is why they went with "end afterward" instead.

Posted by: pennhothwen | October 13, 2009 5:48 PM

Oh yes, two more things:

1. There is one possible exception to the Total Forever Shunning: if a disfellowshipped family member has a child. In this case, the Witnesses are ALL ABOUT trying to convert the child, and will allow for contact with the disfellowshipped person ONLY when it exclusively involves trying to brainwash the child. This 'loophole' has permitted some JW grandparents, but certainly not all, to have limited (often elder-supervised, and always 'debriefed') contact with their disfellowshipped child(ren) and 'worldly' grandchild(ren).

2. @ Richard Eis #63: Maybe British Witnesses are generally more relaxed; not in my experience, but the foreign Witnesses I've met were on special spiritual assignment to the World Headquarters of JW's, located in southern New York where I grew up, so they were just as rabid as the rest of the true believers. My location near HQ (or Bethel - "the House of God" - as they call it) may well also account for the particular ultra-faith of the congregations in my area: the closer you are to the source, the likelier you are to be watched, and the likelier you are to be and do what you're 'supposed' to be and do.

Posted by: JimNorth | October 13, 2009 7:05 PM

Darn!

I could have had Bonobo sex while watching lesbians masturbating with bibles at the university this weekend.

Darn!

Oh, Pygmy Loris @22, you can always obtain a bottle of de-pravity by reducing, by two or three letters, a jar of g-ravity. Any further reduction leads to dravity and a drastic reduction produces de-ity. HTH

Posted by: JustWowed | October 13, 2009 10:41 PM

This blog has induced some insightful discussion, in which everybody has convinced themselves of the intent of the original article without actually decoding it. I applaud the author of this blog.

Posted by: Eliot Self | October 14, 2009 2:34 AM

I see and appreciate that you all, or most of you love and enjoy the study of science. I too enjoy science. Part of science is finding measurable, definable events. Such as the events that lead to the beautiful sky we see on a clear night, or the mountain view of Mt. Rainier from my Seattle home. These findings direct me to a logical source of all that exists. A creator, the "designer". When I read a fine article or see a flawless art piece I intern want to know more about the artiest. The architect as it were. YOU have probably heard of the Italian painter and sculptor Michelangelo. Though you and I may never see the original of any of his masterpieces, you most likely agree with the art historian who called the Italian genius a “marvellous and incomparable artist.” Michelangelo’s talents cannot be denied. Who would try to separate appreciation for Michelangelo’s art from acknowledgment of him as an outstanding artist? I would not. Now think of the mind boggling complexity and diversity in life that thrives around us on earth. Appropriately, one article I read in The New York Times quoted one professor of biological sciences as stating: “The physical marks of design are visible in aspects of biology.” He added: “Life overwhelms us with the appearance of design.” Is it intellectually honest to admire the design without acknowledging the designer? The apostle Paul, a keen observer of things around him, spoke of those who “honoured and served the creature more than him who had created it.” (Romans 1:25, Darby) Affected by pervasive evolutionary ideas, some refuse or fail to recognize that design certainly points to a designer. But does the theory of evolution represent true science at its best? Note the conclusion that Christoph Schonborn, Catholic archbishop of Vienna, presented in The New York Times: “Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.” There are, however, those who feel that accepting the position that there is evidence of a Creator would “stifle research.” An article I particularly enjoyed in the magazine New Scientist expressed such fears, asserting that “science as an open-ended pursuit would come to an end, halted by an impenetrable barrier labelled ‘the designer did it.’” Is that fear well-founded? As one of Jehovah's witnesses I would say not. In fact, the opposite I see is true. Why? To accept blind chance and subsequent evolution as the cause of our universe and life on earth would actually be to abandon any attempt to get a meaningful explanation. On the other hand, accepting that an intelligent Creator is behind what we see around us can lead us to investigate the nature and application of his intelligence manifested in the physical universe. Consider this: Knowing that Leonardo da Vinci painted the “Mona Lisa” has not stopped art historians from investigating his technique and the materials he used. Similarly, accepting that there is a Designer should not discourage us from inquiring into the details and complexity of his designs and creations. Friend, I encourage you to dig deep into our beautiful world. Research, write, publish all that you can it is truly beneficial for all that has the privilege of reading your work.

Posted by: frankosaurus | October 14, 2009 3:33 AM

"On the other hand, accepting that an intelligent Creator is behind what we see around us can lead us to investigate the nature and application of his intelligence manifested in the physical universe."

As opposed to not accepting an intelligent Creator, which still leads us to investigate nature? The point is irrelevant, and actually I doubt ID motivates anyone to study things more. More likely, it leads to less.

"Consider this: Knowing that Leonardo da Vinci painted the “Mona Lisa” has not stopped art historians from investigating his technique and the materials he used."

What are you talking about? The science is in on this one. He used paint. And he practiced his technique. And Art historians don't study him for the purposes of enriching the splendour of viewing his works. Only dim-witted amateurs would, and they aren't motivated to press on for fear of discovering flaws. Reminds me of a group whose name rhymes with schmintilligent schmesign.

"Similarly, accepting that there is a Designer should not discourage us from inquiring into the details and complexity of his designs and creations."

How would it do anything but this? Who would ever think cataloguing complexity is a worthwhile job, anymore than hiring people to tear apart computers to list how nifty everything is. And I would bet that your theory prevents you from seeing the need to actually doing science, in favour of having a smug idea about the whole enterprise. You show me how your intelligent design is motivating you to get put the lab coat on, and maybe your claims will have a little mustard on them.

Posted by: Richard Eis | October 14, 2009 6:30 AM

Tag, i'm in... and hello Frankie, i see you have stopped digging straight down on the other post and said soemthing sensible.

Quite simply, going to church 5 days a week and constantly reading the same book will teach you nothing about art or science.

Sunsets are not designed, it depends on the weather, your position and a few other variables. Each one is beautifully complex and individual to each person...but there is no painter in the sky. There cannot be. Complexity and beauty need no designer.

I should also point out those artists who create art by randomly throwing paint at a canvas. There is more than one way to create art.

Posted by: OurSally | October 14, 2009 10:55 AM

They missed one:

"Someone suggests that marrying a blood relation is a sick and irresponsible thing to do"

This must be very important for them, because without incest their children would be too intelligent to fall for all that stuff.

Posted by: Eliot Self | October 15, 2009 12:52 AM

Let's go back 30 years, for the simple fact that the empirical data is in and it can't be questioned. Set aside the sad fact of how, in 2009, we have not progressed much further. SCIENCE, in its different branches, I have found, is also thought to have answers to many of the everyday problems of life. Many feel that the answers it does not now have it will soon get, so that eventually man’s problems, such as those concerning food, clothing, housing, disease, and even social and moral problems, will all be solved. There is no doubt that science has done good in some of these areas. It has raised the living standards for some and has provided many conveniences. I have seen it has fashioned astonishing mechanisms, such as the airplane for quick travel, internet for efficient communication, as well as other time- and labor-saving devices. In medicine advancement has been made toward alleviating some of man’s suffering. None of this progress is minimized. But at the same time science has also helped produce a very unbalanced machine age that has resulted in frightful tension, mental illness, delinquency, marital strife, crime and violence. The more “advanced” a nation has become scientifically the more these problems have increased. You and I can attest some estimates show that in the United States alone, one of the most advanced countries of this scientific age, as many as 18 million persons need some kind of mental help! One out of every two hospital beds in the country is occupied by a mental patient! In addition, it is science that has fashioned the weapons that have killed more people in two world wars than were killed in the wars of all previous history combined. It is science that has fashioned engines of destruction in our day that could destroy most of the life on earth in a matter of minutes! We can see that people live in constant dread of these monstrous weapons possessed by both Eastern and Western nations. To provide for all of this, as the New York Times pointed out in its issue of March 13, 1962, there are “more than 50,000,000 people in uniform or producing for those in uniform, a number greater than the total population of France.” The sad part is that I'm taking this from a publication that is over 30 year old. It also noted that total world military spending annually “now amounts to $120,000,000,000, or more than the total income of all the under-developed countries.” Equate that for our time in 2009. What could all this money and manpower accomplish if used for the good of mankind? It is estimated that adequate housing could be provided for about 240,000,000 people, the hungry among the world’s three billion people could be fed, and the sick of the world could be provided with medical care, this being 1962, not 2009! That science has not solved the basic problems of man, many recognize. A German medical publication reported: “The mental health of all civilized peoples is endangered today to an extent never before known. . . . What man has gained through science, technical knowledge, industry and organization . . . he is three times over in danger of losing because of the strong threat against proper body and mental balance.” Said the Saturday Evening Post (June 15, 1963): “Science and technology continue to outstrip social, political and philosophical progress at a frightening rate.” That science contributes to social and moral ills can be seen from the conditions prevailing in many of the large industrial cities throughout the world. The Manchester Guardian of May 16, 1963, reported: “Our great cities . . . are a disgrace to any body of men who call themselves civilized: the press, the pace, the congestion, the irritation are so great that the sensibilities of motorists must be coarsened. Even considerate drivers are forced . . . to behave subhumanly. These conditions operate upon us gradually and imperceptibly. The machine is uncivilizing us: attitudes which it engenders must spill over into other departments of living.” Truly, science has not solved the world’s social, do you not agree today, moral and spiritual ills, but has added to them. It has not proved to be a true guide for man in the past, or at present, nor will it prove to be such in the future. As a noted newspaper columnist remarked: “This age of science has no natural limits we know of, and what is dawning on us now is that it is also uncontrollable. Science simply does not know what it is doing or where it is going, in any universal sense; and if the good it does is fundamental, the damage it does is absolutely unrepairable.” This responsibility for causing ill was also noted by Nobel Prize-winning scientist Dr. Harold Urey, who said that the intellectual ideas of the scientific revolution have eroded morality and religion. He stated that the skepticism of the scientific community already has spread into the general population, and he predicted that it will spread ever more widely in the future, adding that this may even be indirectly responsible for the rise of social evils such as delinquency. In view of all this, it is little wonder that one author acidly said, 30 years ago: “If the present condition of international hatred, mass murder, violated treaties, forgotten honor, and civilian extermination in the holy name of war are the best that evolution can accomplish, we should hand the whole mess back to the monkeys and ask them to stir up another batch!” While much of this may come as a surprise to you who thought science would provide solutions to man’s problems instead of causing more of them, it does not come as a surprise to servants of Jehovah. They have not turned to false guides, but they rely on the only true guide available to man, God’s Word, the Holy Bible. That is why Jehovah’s people remain unperturbed in the midst of world turmoil. They have long known that the Bible foretold exactly the distressing things we see taking place throughout the world in our day, for it warned: “But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God.” Would these conditions improve? Those fortified with truth from God’s true guide for man know that in these last days “wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.” They recognize the truth of Jesus’ words when he prophesied the anguish of nations so evident today: “While men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth.”—2 Tim. 3:1-4, 13; Luke 21:26. Friends, those who love Jehovah and have respect for his Word are not fooled by the high claims and promises of those who assure the people that things will get better and that their problems will be solved in time, especially now that science is at work. God’s servants respect what properly controlled science can do, but they do not worship it nor do they make it a guide for their lives. They know that the Creator of man is the only one who can provide what man needs in order to walk properly. He has done that by providing his Word, the Bible, which gives them the knowledge they need to guide them in matters of peace, morality, life and worship. It tells them accurately why things are as they are and what the future holds, because its Author knows all these things; as it is written: “Remember the first things of a long time ago, that I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me; the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying, ‘My own counsel will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do’; . . . I have even spoken it; I shall also bring it in. I have formed it, I shall also do it.” (Isa. 46:9-11) What confidence Jehovah’s servants have in his Word because they know that the all-controlling, all-knowing God, Jehovah, is the One who by his spirit inspired it, seeing to it that what his servants need as a true guide has been recorded for them! This Word of God is like a bright light shining in a dark place. Who can move about with confidence in the dark? This evil-filled world is covered with such darkness, just as prophesied through Isaiah: “For, look! darkness itself will cover the earth, and thick gloom the national groups.” (Isa. 60:2) But would that be true of Jehovah’s people? No, for they have the illumination of his Word! “Your word is a lamp to my foot, and a light to my roadway.” (Ps. 119:105) Of Jehovah’s people, Jesus said: “He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.” (John 8:12) As Jesus respected God’s Word and used it to guide his life, so now the Word of God provides an infallible guide that will enable his followers to find their way through this dark system of things, even past its disastrous end into a new system of things, into a perfect “new earth” where righteousness is to dwell!—2 Pet. 3:13. Today in 2009, the Bible provides the mind with food necessary for mental balance. When men turn away from the one true source of wisdom and guidance, then only chaos can be expected, as has come to pass. Relying solely on the wisdom of men, however intelligent, cannot be sufficient for man to govern his affairs successfully. Man is not the Creator; he is the one created. How can the one created know better than the One creating? But instead of relying on God’s thinking, the worldly-wise have substituted their own thinking. As a result man’s mentality and order of things break down. It is like trying to run a high-powered automobile by putting rubbish instead of high-test gasoline in the fuel tank! Or like a person eating dirt and garbage as a steady diet instead of proper food. His body mechanism will soon break down. So, too, with the mind. The only way it will operate as it should is if it gets the proper fuel that comes from God and is revealed through his Word, the Bible. Man is but a babe in God’s sight. His foolishness in human affairs proves he is no more able to control his destiny than a newborn babe. A person would not think seriously of allowing his baby’s scribbling on a piece of paper to be used as a guide for a long, hazardous journey. Relying solely on man’s mentality, to the exclusion of God’s Word, is the same. Man is a babe in a demon-controlled world. He is up against spirit forces far beyond his power to control. Hence, he needs the wisdom and direction that come from above.—Eph. 6:10-18. The mind of man must have what God meant for it to have to be healthy. It must feed on the spiritual diet provided by God’s Word. The apostle Paul showed this by stating: “Keep holding the pattern of healthful words that you heard from me with the faith and love that are in connection with Christ Jesus.” (2 Tim. 1:13) That such healthful words would be available in abundance in our day, the prophet Micah foretold: “And it must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it peoples must stream. And many nations will certainly go and say: ‘Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.’”—Mic. 4:1, 2. What has this healthful pattern of instruction done for God’s servants in these last days? Under the direction of God’s spirit it has made it possible for them to do what no other earth-wide society of people has accomplished in our time! It has made it possible for peoples from all nations, of all colors, kindreds and tongues, formerly of many differing religions and social levels, to live and work together in complete peace and unity! This marvelous harmony that has resulted is just what the Bible foretold would be produced when humble persons took in the healthful teaching from God’s Word and applied it, for it said: “And [God] will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war any more.” (Mic. 4:3) This is the condition prevailing now in the peaceful society of Jehovah’s witnesses. But they do not give themselves credit for solving this problem of bringing global peace to persons of different nationalities. No, they recognize that it is only by the power of God’s Word and spirit that this has been accomplished. Jehovah’s witnesses appreciate this power of God’s Word to transform man’s thinking and turn it into proper channels. They apply themselves to do just that and have succeeded where the worldly-wise have failed. This accurate knowledge that comes from God is the key to their success, for they have obediently followed the recommendation of this true guide: “Strip off the old personality with its practices, and clothe yourselves with the new personality, which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it.”—Col. 3:9, 10. God’s guide for man also brings to his attention the vital quality of love. This is necessary for unity and peace, for love “is a perfect bond of union.” (Col. 3:14) Jehovah’s witnesses have learned what this Bible love is. They are cultivating it now and will continue to do so until they have acquired it to perfection. This love smooths all their relationships, allowing them to come together and work without the frictions experienced in the old system of things. Even science now acknowledges the importance of such love in human relationships. As a chairman of the Mental Health Research Fund in London said: “By far the most significant discovery of mental science is the power of love to protect and restore the mind.” The Bible knew about this love long ago. That is why a society of people who live by God’s Word and obey the law of love are able to live in peace and happiness with one another and can keep their mental balance while others engage in strife and go mad. Not only does the Bible provide a true guide for everyday living, but it provides a true guide for the future, which science cannot do. The most science can do is to extend one’s life-span briefly, although at the same time it makes the future very uncertain for others. But God’s Word promises a happy future for obedient mankind. It reveals a wonderful new order of things in which peace, prosperity, health, everlasting life and joy will prevail on an earth-wide paradise. But before that glorious time comes, wickedness must be eradicated from the earth. God’s true guide for man also shows that this lawlessness is very near its end and that shortly God Almighty himself will cause it to cease by completely destroying wickedness and wicked people. “And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; and you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.” (Ps. 37:10, 11) How important it is, therefore, to learn of God’s ways now so that we can begin walking on that narrow path that leads to life! How vital it is to heed the counsel of God’s true guide when it says: “Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.” (Prov. 3:5, 6) Yes, God’s guidebook for life will provide you with what you need to walk in his ways, for “all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.”—2 Tim. 3:16, 17. There is a special urgency about being guided by God’s Word now, for the time in which we live will see the complete end of this old system of things. That means we can have the hope of surviving its end and of never dying at all! “The world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.” (1 John 2:17) Our day is similar to when Jehovah’s people of ancient times were standing at the very threshold of the Promised Land. Note the fine words of counsel Moses gave, which words take on even more importance in our day, since it means not just a temporary deliverance, but a deliverance to everlasting life: “Apply your hearts to all the words that I am speaking in warning to you today, that you may command your sons to take care to do all the words of this [God’s] law. For it is no valueless word for you, but it means your life, and by this word you may lengthen your days upon the soil to which you are crossing the Jordan to take possession of it.” (Deut. 32:46, 47) Yes, apply your hearts to following God’s guide for man and you can be among those spoken of by the psalmist when he said: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”—Ps. 37:29. Appreciate the Bible for what it is, God’s remarkable communication to the human race. Let it be your guide. Using man’s schemes, scientific or otherwise, however clever, will lead you only to disappointment and disaster. The Bible, confirmed by all the honest findings of modern science, has proved itself accurate in detail as a road map for us through this dark system of things. No, the Bible is not out of date, even in 2009, as a true guide for man. It has been around a long time, but so has eating, and you would not give that up as being out of date, would you? Neither will life seekers give up God’s life-sustaining thoughts contained in his Word, the Bible, spiritual food that has proved itself vital throughout the ages. Humble persons will certainly not want to be like the four journalists who had been invited to participate in a television discussion on Christianity. When they were asked if any one of them had given five consecutive minutes to an adult consideration of what Christianity had to say, every one of them admitted that he had not, even though all were men of above-average intelligence! How typical of many in the world who want their problems solved, who want a better future, but who will not go to the only place where they can get the information to make that possible! Nor should you be discouraged when you offer God’s guide to others and they scoff, ridicule and turn away. Even with the mountain of evidence testifying to the reliability and integrity of the Bible, many will remain unconvinced. Remember, Jesus said: “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.” (Luke 16:31) Some may find this hard to believe, but the truth of it was demonstrated when Jesus resurrected Lazarus from the dead, because shortly afterward “the chief priests now took counsel to kill Lazarus also.”—John 12:10. Sheeplike persons will believe. They will recognize the ring of truth in the Bible. They will note that, when exposed to the light of true science, the Bible shines more brilliantly than ever as a lamp for our feet, a guide for our lives. They will take in these life-giving waters of truth and will rejoice with Jehovah’s people who have brought these truths to their attention. Then together they will look forward to the time when Jehovah completely vindicates his Name, Word and people. They will look to the great day of the execution of divine judgment in which Jehovah will cleanse the earth of wickedness. They will look with keen anticipation beyond that time to God’s new order where Jehovah will shower down blessings on humankind, and where true science, controlled and guided by its Creator, will be used to bring joy to the hearts of all those who loved God’s Word, lived by it, and survived the end of this disbelieving old human society. All who now have respect for God’s Word and look to it as a guide say as did the psalmist: “For Jehovah is a great God and a great King over all other gods, he in whose hand are the inmost depths of the earth and to whom the peaks of the mountains belong; to whom the sea, which he himself made, belongs and whose own hands formed the dry land itself. O come in, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before Jehovah our Maker.”—Ps. 95:3-6.

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/uiifeUM9yNuNi.vSWDr8HVHc#06d9f | October 15, 2009 2:10 AM

Bloody hell, Eliot Self, you're making more embarrassed than ever for having once been part of your cult.

You're also making me appreciate its opposite – reason and rationality – all the more. Thank Humankind for science! It produces results, not babble.

Posted by: Darkchilde | October 15, 2009 5:12 AM

Well, the JW's would probably run away form me... Let's take it one point at a time, shall we?

I've stopped smoking this summer, although I do still enjoy a cigarette once in a while. Never more than 2 per day, that's the maximum I allow myself.

I have an MSc. in Computer Science, and I am pursuing a bachelor's in Physics and Mathematics through the Open University now (I have to work full-time)

Parties? I love parties. And alcohol, well in my 2 years as a student pursuing my MSc. in England I probably went through a couple of livers anyway. Well, I'm older now, and don't usually drink; but I do enjoy a glass of wine or a beer or something. Alcohol is not that bad as long as you do not become addicted to it.

Internet? Well, I have a profile on facebook, I write in a number of forums, and have a blog in the greek language. probably have opened accounts in various sites I have forgotten about.

As for movies, well some of my favorite movies have violence in them. I like anime and there's a lot of blood in some of them. let's not talk about video games...

Posted by: geekymonkey.myopenid.com | October 15, 2009 7:34 AM

Yep, it's true. I was raised in this frikin' cult. No college for me. They call it the sin of "independent thinking". Basically, if you have any thoughts that aren't in line with their official teachings, then you're sinning. And college is controlled by Satan's world and it's only goal is to undermine "true faith". It's basically signing up to be a servant of the devil. They don't out right ban it, but if you go, your entire family will be given the cold shoulder (a tough punishment when you're not allowed to have friends outside the group).

I'm glad to say that I've finally got my mind free from this cult and am beginning to learn and explore just how amazing the real world is. My kids WILL be getting an education!

Posted by: Eliot Self | October 15, 2009 1:29 PM

@John Morales (as well as others with the same good nature), Your line of thought you expressed in your post projected your personality as a kind and thoughtful Fellow. I appreciate that. The time spent going door-to-door, as I have, I've met many different personalities. One specific personality, back-ground, education, goals in life, personal preference, that I have not had much contact with is one that seems to congregate at this website, Pharyngula. I've found myself surrounded by a pure minded bunch, that love the sound and reasonable method of science. A logical projection in thought, research and reasoning ability is the common thread that I find in academics of science, like those that are here posting this week, show.

So, why did I post three long, meandering, never-ending, theological trains of thought to a board centered on a specific branch of science? I'll explain with a shorter train of thought. I was curious about the mind. The minds of some of the most intelligent people I will ever meet via blog.

I know that we'll never sit at a table and discuss the subject of evolution and creation. Two reasons being, though there are more than two. It will not help either of our personal goals. Your goals are specific and measurable, my goals are specific and measurable. So why spend the time bumping heads. The second thought is. I have no desire to learn a great deal about evolution, just as most or all here have no desire to learn about creation. We have 24 hours in a day. Hopefully we get 8 hours of sleep, 10 hours of work, and 6 hours with our loved ones in that day. So time is of the essence. Neither of us want to waist time on things that don't interest us.

There is one thing that I am interested in. If you had to write a short personal or professional profile about me, what would you write? I'll give you some food for thought; I am one of Jehovah's witnesses. What was my upbringing like? What degrees of higher education do I hold, if any? Where did I attend school, if any? What full-time job do I have? How old am I? You get the idea.

All the best.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 15, 2009 2:04 PM

I have no desire to learn a great deal about evolution, just as most or all here have no desire to learn about creation.

First I have learned about creationism and continue to learn about creationism (there's nothing to suggest creation, but plenty to demonstrate creationism). I want to learn about everything.

The fact you admit you don't want to learn about evolution is telling that you are set in your option and no amount of facts, evidence or reasearch will persuade you that evolution is both a scientific fact and one of the strongest scientific theories we have today.

That's not a redeaming quality in someone.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 15, 2009 2:56 PM

I wonder how many people Elliot has personally annoyed by walking, uninvited mind you, on to their property and knocking on their door?

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 15, 2009 3:20 PM

I call liberal ideology on this one.

I think the better point would be to say that the scientist wishes to guard against error, and will examine creationism to the extent that there is a possibility it offers an alternative credible explanation.

Since when do you speak for me and what my point was?

I'm interested in learning about everything. Some more than others and some I'll never be able to, but I rarely turn down an opportunity to learn something about a topic, any topic. Will I ever achieve my goal, hell no. But that doesn't mean I don't want to learn about everything.

Posted by: frankosaurus | October 15, 2009 3:31 PM

"Will I ever achieve my goal, hell no. But that doesn't mean I don't want to learn about everything."

Okay, maybe you've never been confronted with the fact that wanting to learn everything is liberal. Now you know. The contrast would be that ideas are only good so long as one can live them, which is conservative (or at the very least a kind of liberalism that is generous enough to say it has been "mugged by reality")

Posted by: frankosaurus | October 15, 2009 3:38 PM

"Just because I want to learn about creationism doesn't mean I give it even a iota of credibility."

Good to clear up, but of course I realize that. I'm just bringing to light what I considered an underlying assumption about things. With respect, your bringing up Sun Tzu shows less to do with how "realist" you are, than how well-read you are.

Anyways, maybe I should scale back my words so it doesn't look like i'm just trying to pick a fight. THe point is that your reasons for rejecting this silly person aren't everyone's. Much of the evolution / creation debate is just liberalis / conservatism in cloaked form, and it's just worth pointing out sometimes where they are at play to bear in mind the bigger picture.

Posted by: Sanction | October 15, 2009 3:45 PM

THe point is that your reasons for rejecting this silly person aren't everyone's. Much of the evolution / creation debate is just liberalis / conservatism in cloaked form, and it's just worth pointing out sometimes where they are at play to bear in mind the bigger picture.

Worth pointing out? The bigger picture?

What the fuck are you talking about? How does anything you just said add anything of value to this thread at all?

Posted by: frankosaurus | October 15, 2009 3:46 PM

"So, wanting to know as much about reality as possible is liberal and staying in a bubble is conservative? Sounds about right."

Yup, I agree with this statement. However, if we really do want to play the dick measuring game, I would qualify your statement by saying, on the flipside, conservatives are more likely to avoid learning about "unreality" (like postmodernism, deconstructionism, marxism) than liberals are. So when the scales are tipped about who knows more about reality when measured against what they know about unreality, conservatives have the advantage.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 15, 2009 3:54 PM

I would qualify your statement by saying, on the flipside, conservatives are more likely to avoid learning about "unreality" (like postmodernism, deconstructionism, marxism) than liberals are

Do you subscribe to the Homer Simpson theory of knowledge? That there is a finite amount of space for knowledge in your head and learning too much about other some will not leave room for others or will push out the already gained knowledge?

This is a silly thing you've said.

I guarantee that there are PLENTY of conservatives who know the intricate details of Marxism and still manage to have a great deal of knowledge of all things Dow Jones and John 3:16.

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus | October 15, 2009 3:58 PM

Dear Brother Eliot Self,

As a born-again, Bible-believing member of God's ONE TRUE CATHOLIC CHURCH I prayed to Jesus about you, and he had this to say.

SB: Dear Jesus, what can you tell me about Eliot Self?

JESUS: Nothing! I don't believe in him.

SB: But he just posted on Pharyngula?

JESUS: Yes, but as you've probably noticed, his name is an anagram of "Ol' Lie Fest", you can't trust anything he says. He's a blathering twat.

SB: You seem a bit heated, Jesus.

JESUS: I am Smoggy. Ol' Lie Fest and his ilk, don't believe I'm part of the Trinity. They think that Dad created me, like I'm some well-hung Adam modeled out of dirt.

SB: That's shocking! They'll burn in Hell for that!

JESUS: Heh! You betcha. Long-winded Eliot's gonna have a real shock when I have him dancing on Satan's griddle--particularly as the Jehovah's Whiners don't believe in Hell either.

SB: No Hell? What's the point of being a Christian if you don't have the satisfaction of knowing that the sinners are going to suffer for eternity? I'm looking forward to being able to lean over Heaven's outer wall and laugh at those writhing in torment.

JESUS: Yeah, heh...heh. It'll make the whole crucifixion thing worth it.

SB: So, can you supply a short personal or professional profile for EndlessElliot?

JESUS: Yeah...sure...why not.

SB: What was his upbringing like?

JESUS: Well, his background is German, and he comes from a long line of blutwurst manufacturers. His immigrant ancestors set up one of the largest blood sausage making operations in the States, which all came crashing down when the Patriarch of the family, Philhim Self, almost drowned in a vat of fresh boar's blood. He developed a profound aversion to blood products, and that very weekend converted to become a Jehovah's Witness. The rest of the family was ordered to join as well, and the blutwurst operation was sold to a family of Italian Biroldo makers, who moonlighted as Mafia hitmen and bludgeoned many victims to death with giant frozen sausages. Ironically, later in life Philhim Self became very ill and required a blood transfusion. Realizing his error at joining an outfit of hemoglobin haters, he tried to heal himself by using a secret family recipe for blood suppositories, but was incarcerated in a mental asylum when he was discovered surreptitiously bleeding his children as they slept.

SB: Crikey, and I thought my family was weird. So what degree of higher education does Selfiot hold?

JESUS: He's got a BA in Door-to-Door Godbothering from the "Knock-me-up for Yahweh" Academy of Persistent Proselytising; an MA in Ignoring Pitying Looks from the same institution; and a PhD in Sacred Shoe Repairs from the University of Plain Dressing. His greatest achievement was to win his fraternity award for the fattest, longest and most-swiftly recovering "Watchtower".

SB: Watchtower?

JESUS: Let's just say he's got a blood sausage Floyd Rubber would be proud of.

SB: And does he have a full-time job?

JESUS: Oh yes. He runs a secret consultancy advising little old ladies and lonely people how to avoid becoming targets of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's very clever. The day after the JWs hit an area, he follows up with a flier offering advice on how to protect yourself from repeat visits. He even markets a range of defensive devices, and has a franchise in guard dogs who only attack down at heel men in bad suits.

SB: Thank you Jesus. Amen.

Posted by: strange gods before me, OM | October 15, 2009 4:10 PM

okay, i'll say it was off topic. i'll let things rest. but would you mind pointing me to where the conservatism / liberalism thread is?

The place to talk about conservatism is in your living room, screaming at the television. Go away.

Posted by: Iris | October 15, 2009 4:19 PM

@129 "Self"

There is one thing that I am interested in. If you had to write a short personal or professional profile about me, what would you write? I'll give you some food for thought; I am one of Jehovah's witnesses. What was my upbringing like? What degrees of higher education do I hold, if any? Where did I attend school, if any? What full-time job do I have? How old am I? You get the idea.

Shorter Mr. Self: But enough about me. What do you think of me?

@143 frank:

conservatives are more likely to avoid learning about "unreality" (like postmodernism, deconstructionism, marxism) than liberals are.

Well that certainly explains why conservatives are less likely to believe in talking snakes and virgin births.

LMAO over here in reality.

Posted by: frankosaurus | October 15, 2009 4:37 PM

"Well that certainly explains why conservatives are less likely to believe in talking snakes and virgin births."

No true scotsman conservative believes in talking snakes and virgin births. But to the extent they do, nothing follows from them. true conservatism does just fine with or without proving or believing in historical accounts of supernatural interventions. Unlike the weddedness to ideas liberals have. Deflate the culture of "knowledge is its own good" and all of a sudden all your normative sociologists, most lit critters, Christologists, and any other kind of intellectual tomfoolery that appeals to the "curious" are out of jobs.

I would put the term "reactionary" on those who say that the bible offers comprehensive naturalistic interpretations. Thus, not true conservatives, even if they received the lapel pin.

Posted by: frankosaurus | October 15, 2009 4:48 PM

sorry, nietzsche was another thread i think

Posted by: frankosaurus | October 15, 2009 4:57 PM

huh? I haven't said anything racist

Posted by: frankosaurus | October 15, 2009 5:19 PM

those aren't racist, and I can demonstrate why if you want me to. But isn't this just derailing the thread? In any case, if you want an argument, ask and ye shall receive.

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus | October 15, 2009 5:29 PM

Dear Brother Frank said "ask and ye shall receive".

While I don't want an argument, a bit of frottage dressed in spacemen suits and a severe spanking for afters would be good.

Whereabouts are you, Frankenfurter? I can be there with bells on.

Yours in bloke adventures
Smoggy

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 15, 2009 6:31 PM

Yawn, rationalize all you like. I just point out the assumption of liberalism's virtues sneaking their way into Chimp's rejection of Eliot Self. As it's a precious assumption, I don't expect any internet debating to accomplish much.

No you point out your failed attempts to pigeon hole my reasoning for wanting to increase my knowledge on subjects that may not be of "value" when put into practice. And while doing so you miss that that is the very reason I want to know why people place value on them. You imply bordering on assert that any attempt to understand why people believe in outlandish ideas has no value because their ideas aren't based in reality. Well no shit that's exactly why I want try and get a grasp on it.

I reject Eliot Self because he has positioned himself so that he refuses to question his position on evolution and probably a great many other things. You then grabbed that and ran off into la la land where you tried to paste your paper edge narrow views on liberals and conservatives onto my statement about wanting to increase my knowledge on things even I find distasteful and idiotic.

Frankly, it's pretty damn myopic and transparent attempt on your end to inject your obvious distaste for liberalism into the discussion. The creationism v. evolution issue is not a conservative v. liberal problem. Yes there is some lining up on the sides by liberals and conservatives but the fact of the matter is, it is at its core and a majority of the time when argued here, a science vs. anti-science issue. That is my motivation and you would do better not trying to interpose your obvious bias in places it isn't warranted.

I should find it hard to believe that you really are arguing anti-intellectualism is a virtue, because that is essentially what you are doing, but I don't.

I'm beginning to think my question about the Homer Simpson theory of knowledge may apply to you more than I thought.

Posted by: strange gods before me, OM | October 15, 2009 6:47 PM

Shut up, Frank, you squirrely nut-hoarder.

Posted by: strange gods before me, OM | October 15, 2009 7:11 PM

Anything that makes Frank uncomfortable is liberalism.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | October 15, 2009 7:16 PM

frankie, you're an idiot.

Posted by: strange gods before me, OM | October 15, 2009 8:02 PM

Smoggy, keep your fat man primed and ready. I'll see you at five minutes to midnight.

Posted by: frankosaurus | October 15, 2009 8:08 PM

hang on a second, strange gods are you - what's the right word to use - of an alternative sexual orientation? If so, then why didn't you just say so. I wouldn't bother trying to sell you on conservative positions then.

Posted by: strange gods before me, OM | October 15, 2009 8:18 PM

I wouldn't bother trying to sell you on conservative positions then.

You shouldn't bother because I am a former right wing nut, and I won't be fooled again.

Posted by: strange gods before me, OM | October 15, 2009 8:31 PM

Too many racist dinosaurs, as well.

Posted by: Iris | October 15, 2009 9:04 PM

Here's your screed: a conservative doesn't shrug.

And here's your bloated pontification: 'Course not. A conservative would never make any gesture that indicates they might not know something, silly. They already know everything that they could ever want to know. About everything.

Posted by: strange gods before me, OM | October 15, 2009 9:17 PM

Frank. Shut your racist mouth. Go away.

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus | October 15, 2009 9:27 PM

"Smoggy, keep your fat man primed and ready. I'll see you at five minutes to midnight."
---------------------------------------

DEAR FLOYD, a brief note just to say,
That I may not be back 'til November.

So have heaps of fun. And I'll pray
That you find men to poke with your member.

As for me, I've a tête-à-tête tryst,
Arranged with strange gods before me,

The friend at the top of my list
Whose Molly demands a group orgy.

I'm not sure who else will be present,
But I invited some hundreds of guests:

Nerd and his redheaded honey,
Ichthy, Morales, and Sven,

Jadehawk, the Rev., and the Bunny,
Aquaria, Patricia, Janine,

Feynmaniac, Sili and Carlie,
Hypatia, and Lynna as well,

Alan B. the clever rock chappie,
'Tis Himself, who is going to Hell,

Where he'll tan with PZ and Wowbagger,
MAJeff, Desert Son and Glen D.

And hundreds of others who matter,
(add your name as an RSVP).

All folks who want God to vacation,
In a galaxy far, far away,

Where He doesn't demand supplication,
Or make good people grovel and pray,

Over 'sins' that are just human nature,
And rules that were made by cave men,

And strictures that limit each other,
And hate that flows forth from faith's pen.

But instead we'll all think, and recover
Our reason, and learn tolerance,

Which is what we're all sure we'll discover
If the god disease gives us a chance.

And I know I could say this much better,
Which reminds me of one earnest wish;

Dear Floyd, please, please post my last letter,
The one labeled, 'For Cuttlefish.'

AMEN

Posted by: Lynna, OM | October 15, 2009 9:40 PM

Smoggy, I'm RSVPing for the group orgy to celebrate strange gods before me's Molly. The vibrating lingerie is still functioning, and your guest list is the best I've ever seen. Delectable. See you there.

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus | October 15, 2009 9:50 PM

Pretend away, Iris. I did.

I'm glad you'll be there buzzing luscious Lynna.

Did aratina cage get my invite?

Who else have I missed?

By the way it's a space themed party.

Posted by: frankosaurus | October 15, 2009 9:55 PM

"I'm not sure that you posses the ability to keep a line of reasoning through a discussion."

sigh. it's not a question of closed-mindedness being a virtue while open-mindedness isn't. It's a question of human perfectibility. If a person wants to know more because they think it makes them better, then that's liberalism, and what I called you on. Closed-mindedness is thinking there is a virtue in ignorance. I don't share this belief, nor does any sensible person. I will agree with the statement that there are many unthinking "conservatives", but that's what I have alluded to earlier as being more closely "reactionary" or just fear of change.

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus | October 15, 2009 10:12 PM

Brother Rorschach, keep your eye on the post. I've sent you an invite to my space-themed mollification party. I sent one out to Pygmy Loris as well.

If possible, try to wear something blatantly pornographic.

Smoggy

Posted by: IaMoL | October 15, 2009 10:28 PM

I'll grab a dildo and some astroglide and be there on the double!

Posted by: Kel, OM | October 15, 2009 10:35 PM

Say what?

Posted by: aratina cage | October 15, 2009 10:40 PM

Pardon me, but you seem to have grabbed my Thermos™ bottle instead... ;D

Posted by: frankosaurus | October 16, 2009 1:06 AM

"Methinks frankosaurus views the world through the lens of a liberal/conservative dichotomy. "

Quite the contrary in fact. Up here in Canada, the terms liberal and conservatism aren't thrown around so ubiquitously. And if they are, they take on radically different meanings. The Conservative party here, for example, spends like crazy, increases funding to arts and social programs, and our Prime Minister was caught recently singing on stage that he "gets high with a little help from my friends." We have tories, but no real "conservative" tradition per se, unlike America.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 16, 2009 7:32 AM

If a person wants to know more because they think it makes them better, then that's liberalism, and what I called you on.

Well first of all, you called me on it totally missing the point of why I wanted to know more to know more and then continued to make some out there stabs at liberalism that I'm having a hard time finding any basis for.

Can you please refer me to something that backs up your assertion that wanting to learn about more is not also a conservative value? That learning more does not make you a better equipped person?

Secondly your stance is essentially anti-intellectual no matter how much you try to cram your conservative v. liberal views on it. For example, you claiming the evolution vs. creation is a liberal vs. conservative thing. As I said there is obvious lining up on the sides but the issue is not in any way a conservative v. liberal issue. It is a science v. anti-science issue. Do facts have a liberal bias (yes I know we'll see some remarks here but I'm serious)?

Posted by: Carlie | October 16, 2009 7:45 AM

Smoggy, I'm totally there. I'll bring the caramel syrup.

Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | October 16, 2009 10:57 AM

Smoggy, if the invitation to your delectable sounding orgy is extended to yours truly I would happily attend.

I have but one request. Be gentle with me. I am a shy, shrinking violet.

Aratina Cage, feel free to appropriate my thermos for extra-cirricular activity anytime the urge takes you. Who am I to come between a woman and her warm beverage?

Posted by: Calilasseia | October 17, 2009 7:07 PM

Oh look, it's more evidence of JW anti-intellectualism for me to add to my collection.

Meanwhile, how about this video clip I found during a trawl of the net one evening? Which dovetails quite nicely with the scan PZ was sent.

Posted by: Jw 4 life | October 27, 2009 1:56 AM

Wow,Many have ill treated Jehovah's people and many have paid the price for doing so. I have a spiritual obligation to pray for you and hope that one day, your eyes are not blinded by the god of this system of things. That will be my prayer because I would hate to see any pay that price.

Posted by: Rorschach | October 27, 2009 5:40 AM

That will be my prayer because I would hate to see any pay that price.

Hate it, you would not.Dangerous and deluded, you are.

Posted by: Mike John | December 17, 2009 3:17 AM

my rgrds t y nd t y nc nml blg :)