Greg Laden reports that Oprah actually had positive things to say about the quality of life in Denmark, and may even have been non-condemning in a brief comment about their godlessness. I am shocked, shocked I tell you, that Greg spends his afternoons watching Oprah. But after that, I'm mildly and pleasantly surprised. I doubt that much was said about it (parts of the program are online, but no, I simply can't bear to watch it), but at least it's one tiny step toward mainstreaming atheism.
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« Promising new developments | Main | CoR is everywhere »
Oprah may not have puked at the mention of atheism! It's a breakthrough!
Category: Godlessness
Posted on: October 21, 2009 11:10 PM, by PZ Myers
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Comments
Posted by: SciencePundit
|
October 21, 2009 11:22 PM
I saw that earlier.
...
That's Greg's post, not Oprah's show!
Posted by: jimvj | October 21, 2009 11:29 PM
More stomach churning stuff:
http://www.americanfreedomalliance.org/microsite/darwindebates/oct27.htm
Posted by: LisaJ | October 21, 2009 11:30 PM
PZ, while I share in your happiness regarding Oprah's breakthrough on today's show, I'm afraid that I must divulge some information that may just burst your bubble. While at home sick yesterday I just happened to catch part of the Oprah show; her guests were 5 women who had all been infected with HIV by the same scumbag man. I was appalled to hear big O agree with her guests that the main personality trait that should have tipped them off that he was a bad man was that 'he doesn't believe in god'. I almost threw my computer through my television. If I had the strength at the time I think I would have.
Posted by: Joel
|
October 21, 2009 11:38 PM
I haven't seen this posted yet, but the internet meme du jour is a catchy bit of skeptic electronic music called "A Glorious Dawn" -- Carl Sagan singing about the cosmos, with a little rap interlude by Stephen Hawking. It was created by feeding bits of "Cosmos" and "Universe" through an auto-tune music synthesizer.
It's better than I'm making it sound. It's like a scientific hymn to the wonders of the universe and the incredible capacity of humans to understand and explore it. It fills me with optimism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc
Posted by: --PatF
|
October 21, 2009 11:43 PM
Off topic but I couldn't resist.
For the atheist who loves both Christmas and cephalopods we bring you "Octophrost."
http://www.futuregirl.com/craft_blog/2007/12/lenores-got-mad-skillz.aspx
http://tails.co.za/tag/octophrost/
I'm sure you'll love it.
Posted by: anon | October 21, 2009 11:47 PM
I saw the Oprah show. Oprah couldn't believe that the women she interviewed could be happy and be atheists. She made a point of saying that one of the woman in the group disagreed with the nonbelievers and actually had strong faith. She also tried to get the women to agree to being "spiritual" instead of religious. It was not a direct condemnation, but it was not without judgement. In fact, it had me yelling at the television. I think the only reason that Oprah couldn't say more is that the godless woman from Denmark was articulate (rational, sane) and clearly very comfortable with her position. It was actually a gross (albeit subtle) demonstration of Oprah's bias against atheists.
Posted by: Capital Dan
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October 21, 2009 11:52 PM
If you're thinking Oprah is some sort of path by which atheism (or any rational thought) may find itself into the mainstream, you're a little cracked, PZ.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 21, 2009 11:54 PM
Until she renounces her love of "The Secret" I don't trust her as far as I can throw her.
Posted by: Hinemoana | October 21, 2009 11:59 PM
Not gonna happen. Not with Oprah anyway. Oprah herself may curb her words so as not to be too offensive, but that little pannel of friends she has is just hideous. Watching her show with the godless women, if felt like sarcasitically commenting that i cant believe she is truely happy since she's a childless, husbandless woman.
Posted by: rufustfiretfirefly | October 22, 2009 12:07 AM
Oprah Winfrey believes in the Secret bullshit, Suzanne Somers' bullshit, and the anti-vaccine bullshit. Who cares what she thinks?
Posted by: Aseem
|
October 22, 2009 12:20 AM
I have never really watched Oprah, but if the above comments are true, it surprises me that she should have such a mindset towards atheists, considering that she is actually the only sane person in this video I found on youtube. It should have taught her that religious people can be nuts, and being a 'bad man' has nothing to do with being an atheist.
Posted by: Pryopizm | October 22, 2009 12:26 AM
And let's not forget how gullible she and her staff are to utterly miss the "over 9000" meme and provide 4chan with so much fodder. Sadly, I find it insanely funny in a completely tasteless and immature way.
She may simply see the atheism Denmark as a prime spot for her brand of credulous spiritualist evangelism.
Posted by: Jason
|
October 22, 2009 12:32 AM
#12: I'd almost forgotten about the whole over 9000 thing. Thanks for reminding me
/off to find "Lulz, a corruption of LOL" in the ol' MP3 library
Posted by: Russell Blackford | October 22, 2009 12:46 AM
@ #3 ... frakking hell. I don't think there's much hope from Oprah.
Right now, the top priority we should all have is smashing the political power of religion. Until this is done, every single issue will be distorted in the public sphere.
But the way to do it won't be through folks like Oprah bloody Winfrey.
Posted by: DB | October 22, 2009 12:47 AM
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/10/21/bc-merritt-murder-trial-schoenborn-testifies.html?ref=rss
Completely off topic, I just thought you might be interested in blogging on this story. A guy murdered his three children because he thought they might be being exploited/abused so instead of doing something to protect them he figured he would just murder them all and send em off to heaven. Another great result thanks to the harmless "hope" for the afterlife.
Posted by: Greg Laden
|
October 22, 2009 12:52 AM
Yea, I was pretty shocked that I was watching it too. But what can I say ... Dr. Phil was boring today.
Posted by: JHS
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October 22, 2009 12:53 AM
She really does push a sort of secular religion, though it has nothing to do with her personally...it's all about worshipping a sort of middlebrow, warm-and-fuzziness. Most of her schtick is about people transforming themselves into or otherwise embracing things that are "nice"...as in, it's "nice" to have discussions (however superficial) about books or to think you can attract whatever to yourself by sheer force of mind.
It's also "nice" to have the fortitude (read: obstinance) to know *for sure*, without any scientific training, the cause of autism regardless of, say, facts, and it's certainly "nice" to be "spiritual" (not too theistic, but certainly not an atheist). All of it has the effect of making one feel whatever -- smarter, deeper, in touch with some mystical beyond -- with minimal effort. And, like most religion, it doesn't like its illusions challenged (funny how fast the anti-vac types become decidedly not-"nice" when you throw a little evidence to the contrary their way).
Atheism (and for that matter, reality) is an inherently aggressive posture to those with tenuous, if vehement, beliefs, hence the usual worst-thing-ever! response to its very mention, which I'd say Oprah implicitly gives in this situation.
Posted by: DJ
|
October 22, 2009 12:53 AM
Too bad the big O doesn't use her powers of mass audience appeal to advance things that are rational. Like good science based medicine. If she isn't cocooned in silken woo fibers maybe she will come around someday...doubtful.
Why is it all the most popular media figures are woomeisters?
Oprah should come fight my brute! You come fight my brute!
http://killa-jigg.mybrute.com
Posted by: Rorschach | October 22, 2009 12:55 AM
@ 13,
It looked like english words, so I googled it.
I guess I'm getting old.....:-) Someone tell me you have to be a supernerd to know this stuff.
As to Oprah, forget that hopeless emo-surfer folks, I don't think she's good for any promoting of rational thought, deep in woo that one.
Posted by: Janine, Vile Bitch, OM | October 22, 2009 12:59 AM
Greg Laden, the next time you are faced with a choice between Dr Phil and Oprah, pick up a book.
Posted by: RagingBullwinkle
|
October 22, 2009 1:00 AM
Ewwww! Oprah has bunions! I did not need to see that.
Consider yourself warned.
Posted by: Kamaka
|
October 22, 2009 1:15 AM
Oprah should come fight my brute! You come fight my brute!
Oh, please, quit shilling your stupid game.
I'm not quite getting it, why would anyone watch the stupid television at all? Oprah, Dr.? Phil, Jerry the Springer, it all makes my brain hurt...
Posted by: Kamaka
|
October 22, 2009 1:35 AM
"Parasites and the Behavior of Animals" by Janice Moore.
Posted by: Silmarillion
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October 22, 2009 2:05 AM
I bit the bullet and watched the Copenhagen house tour. Oprah seems amazed people live with children in apartments and that their pantries are organised and they don't need a 4 door refrigerator to store their stuff. No atheist mention in that vid though.
Posted by: Happy Tentacles | October 22, 2009 3:04 AM
I've just noticed - it's October 22nd and the world hasn't ened. Again.
Posted by: Happy Tentacles
|
October 22, 2009 3:07 AM
Sorry, I meant 'ended'. I was so astonished at not having seem all those True Believers whizzing up to heaven last night that I forgot how to type.
Posted by: Alex Wilkins | October 22, 2009 3:19 AM
I agree with #6 statements. I happened to see this on television. I don't watch Oprah ever so it's funny that you mention it. She did say she was surprised that they are so happy and yet non-religious, so it wasn't exactly an endorsement. She did seem to want to push towards spirituality and I'm sure the women only agreed to be nice.
Also Denmark looks like and very nice place to live (and a conservative republican hell)
Posted by: Nemo | October 22, 2009 3:43 AM
I remember one of the first times I ever saw Oprah, over two decades ago, on her show, saying "I just know there's a God." As in, don't try to argue with her. It was worse than it sounds.
Posted by: truth machine
|
October 22, 2009 4:02 AM
Greg Laden reports that Oprah actually had positive things to say about the quality of life in Denmark
No he doesn't.
and may even have been non-condemning in a brief comment about their godlessness
Uh, finding it incomprehensible that they could be happy with it is not non-condemning.
Posted by: Peter Ashby
|
October 22, 2009 4:47 AM
I too hear that Denmark is a nice place to live. It is however VERY flat and the spoken language bears no relation to the written words. My opinion is that they pretend that the written words can be pronounce that way as a joke on the rest of Scandinavia.
Is it any wonder the Scandinavians use English as a lingua franca?
But seriously a humanist social democracy, what's not to like?
Posted by: Marcus Mattsson | October 22, 2009 5:17 AM
I live in Denmark, and if that's a normal, Danish home my name is PZ Myers.
Posted by: eddie
|
October 22, 2009 5:40 AM
"Oprah has bunions"? We may have to wait for her wisdom teeth to rot before she gets the message.
And TV? yuck to 99.9% of it. But QI is good and I enjoy live football. Like carlie was, I'm also on sick leave, and I'm reading Lee Smolin's The Life of the Cosmos.
Posted by: MadScientist
|
October 22, 2009 6:41 AM
While on the topic of puke - Mooney says he didn't really say what he says he said and that Jerry Coyne has misrepresented the unmentionable Mooney Book in Coyne's review published in Science. I found Coyne's review to be rather thorough, but not content with the public spanking he received, Mooney now picks out more favorable words from accommodationists. Mooney's weak whining about how no one understands his book has me in stitches - apparently scientists need to take lessons in communication from Mooney who either is demonstrably unable to communicate his ideas or is playing silly games. Mooney's thesis that so many people with doctoral degrees are too damned stupid to understand his book is laughable at best.
Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemuian | October 22, 2009 7:14 AM
@ Rev.BigDumpChimp #8
I had never heard of "The Secret" until I read this report in today's Guardian newspaper.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/22/james-ray-sweat-lodge-death
Posted by: Strangest brew
|
October 22, 2009 7:35 AM
Sad fact is that the demographic of the audience is huge in a viewing figure and disposable income way.
In Blighty a lesser known celebrity cook called Deliah Smith has the power to make or break a product at xmas.
From Wikki..
"Her television series, Delia's How to Cook (1998), reportedly led to a 10% rise in egg sales in Britain, and her use of ingredients (such as frozen mash, tinned minced beef and onions as used in her 2008 TV series), or utensils (such as an omelette pan), could cause sell-outs overnight. This phenomenon - 'the Delia Effect' - was most recently seen in 2008 after her new book How to Cheat at Cooking was published. Her fame has meant that her first name has become sufficient to identify her to the public, and the "Delia Effect" has become a commonly used phrase to describe a run on a previously poor-selling product as a result of a high-profile recommendation"
And that is in a fairly rational...ish audience demographic.
Oprah is another class apart.
Whatever she does or what ever she thinks or opines is literally gospel for the TV aficionados in the States.
Like a sheep effect, if Oprah approves the rest of America does!
One reason she is the richest TV pundit in the world probably.
So it does matter, unfortunately, what the dozy bint thinks.
She seems to have stopped well short of actually extolling the virtues of Atheism, but at least the veiled condemnation, or what there was.. was not loud long and vitriolic, (Thank god for small miracles);-)
Mind you folks in glass houses should not boulders toss around methinks!
It is a predominately xian audience, she is aware of that, they provide her contracts,and by default profit for her employers...or at least the TV channel of her choice... without she is just another has been, and she is well aware of the hysterical power of xian clowns when it comes to their delusion as the majority of American TV pundits know!
She will not advance atheism, but it is telling that she failed to roundly condemn either...there is hope sorta!
Posted by: aratina cage
|
October 22, 2009 8:15 AM
Scary stuff. The Secret has "Jim Jones" written all over it. Hopefully James Arthur Ray will find himself in a prison cell before more people die.Posted by: firemancarl
|
October 22, 2009 8:24 AM
Now, if she will just kick Jenny McCarthy to the curb!
Posted by: AJ Milne
|
October 22, 2009 8:41 AM
Sounds kinda like somethin' outta Dante's Inferno...
(/... 'And in the tenth circle of hell, a place where are tormented those who break out in a ghastly rash at the very mention of certain unaccountably ubiquitous names, we came upon a man strapped into a recliner, his eyelids propped open, in the fashion portrayed in the film adaptation of A Clockwork Orange... before him was a television screen that seemed to stretched to the very horizon, and beneath his quavering, shaking hand was a remote with a single button, which switched eternally between two channels... The madness of a dying intellect, tortured and turned to marshmallow by a steady, unescapeable, forcefed diet of daytime insipidity, was upon his fevered visage...')
Posted by: Sastra
|
October 22, 2009 8:49 AM
JHS #17 wrote:
Yes, I think you nailed it. I'm not surprised that anon in #6 reports that Oprah tried to get the women to say they were "spiritual" instead of religious. Nice people believe nice things. Atheists don't believe nice things. Atheists are not nice.
Instead of being castigated for being rebellious sinners, secular humanists are condemned for being insufficiently deep, sensitive, and loving. That's not really much of a step up on the acceptance scale, public-wise.
Of course, just by allowing a contented atheist on her show, Oprah is presenting an option. It's one she'll likely try to make up for by later using the sort of sleazy tactics LisaJ talks about, but we're slowly getting out there.
Posted by: Free Lunch
|
October 22, 2009 9:02 AM
Oprah apparently is unaware that a dishonest person in the United States is unlikely to claim falsely not to be a believer, but we have seen that a few can make millions of dollars dishonestly claiming to be a believer. Believers have been taken by confidence men for centuries and will continue to be taken in as long as there are people preaching about gods.
What people say doesn't much matter if their words are contradicted by their actions.
Posted by: AJ Milne
|
October 22, 2009 9:09 AM
Yeah. I am beyond sick up to here with that one, myself...
The right answer to that, y'ask me: listen, you: saying you're 'spiritual' doesn't make you particularly deep, thoughtful, introspective, or decent, so much as I've ever noticed. And saying you're not interested in presumptively slapping that particular annoyingly popular and utterly meaningless modern brand label on yourself is likewise not the inverse...
Indeed, my brief observations on these phenomena so far is that folk who'll take that latter stance, generally, I find this loosely associated with not being a two-faced, saccharine-voiced annoyance unto the whole of the human species... And so I tend to see such a statement as generally a positive sign, myself...
Furthermore, it is also my observation it is quite possible to claim you're 'spiritual' and still be a shallow, airheaded asshole with an apparently lucrative talent for projecting a paper-thin embarrassment of a facade that you're some monstrously empathetic gift to the human species in front of a camera, but really nothing much else of particular value going on anywhere in your being...
(/And yes, dear, maybe there is a reason I'm looking at you so fixedly when I say that... Why do you ask?)
Posted by: Billy C | October 22, 2009 9:20 AM
On an Oprah-related note, I do recommend her latest "book club" pick, Uwem Akpan's "Say you're one of them."
It's a very effective collection of short stories about children, poverty, and religious violence in Africa. It's written by a priest, but you'd hardly know it: in the stories, the church is generally part of the problem.
I read it this spring on the strength of its appearance on the American Library Association's "Best Books of 2008," and was a little surprised this fall to hear Oprah had picked it. If Oprah's recommendation had come first, I probably wouldn't have bothered.
Posted by: Tuff
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October 22, 2009 10:04 AM
The video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOSIY0xhfeE
Posted by: PZ Myers
|
October 22, 2009 10:12 AM
That was pretty weak sauce from Oprah, I agree. At best, she was baffled and tried to shoehorn their lack of belief into some kind of 'spirituality'...she also found succor in the fact that one of the women she talked to was religious.
At least she didn't foam at the mouth and bite any atheists, which is a plus. Sorta.
Posted by: daveau
|
October 22, 2009 10:25 AM
Speaking as a loyal Chicagoan: fuck Oprah and the horse she rode in on.
Posted by: aratina cage
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October 22, 2009 10:55 AM
She did not look too happy about it afterward, though. The scowl was indelible.Posted by: NewEnglandBob
|
October 22, 2009 10:59 AM
Oprah - is that some kind of whale?
Oh, wait that is an Orca.
Posted by: daveau
|
October 22, 2009 1:08 PM
#47
You're thinking of Okra. Not just for breakfast anymore.
Posted by: windy | October 22, 2009 1:29 PM
@ the video: Oprah thinks "there isn't a real middle class" in Denmark, wtf? Look at the women you're talking to.
Posted by: DJ
|
October 22, 2009 2:03 PM
@Kamaka #22,
Last time I checked lots of people link to stuff they like on these blog comments.
Posted by: Mikko | October 22, 2009 2:20 PM
JHS #17
There's also a large element of thinly veiled materialism in it. Making more money and getting a bigger and 'nicely' decorated house is always one of the essential values. Sometimes the point is made very explicitly in the shows that focus on gawking at the trappings of the rich and famous. Of course, she has her sponsors to think about.
Posted by: Greg Laden
|
October 22, 2009 2:47 PM
You've read the commentary, now here's the movie:
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/10/im_pretty_sure_oprah_would_pre.php
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | October 22, 2009 2:50 PM
huh? now I'm gonna have to watch that stupid video... seeing as European countries generally have a much larger middle class than the US, I now want to know WTF she thinks "middle class" actually means...Posted by: JHS
|
October 23, 2009 5:16 AM
@ Mikko #51
Spot on. There is an extremely strong materialist bent to the things she advocates. Not just her "favorite things" or whatever book or supplement or homeopath she's pushing, but the whole lot. Something I failed to mention in my post was the extraordinary bent towards conspiracy she advocates, though really not so much "conspiracy" as a caricature of "common sense."
The easy belief in vac-related illness in children, the coddling of Suzanne Summers (recent advocate AGAINST chemo for cancer patients), and the whole homeopathic/"natural"/The Secret BS. It all reeks of the exact same anti-science attitude that drives creationists. "THEY are out to get you!" "THEY know something you don't!" "There's something THEY don't want you to believe!" Once again, it feels "nice" to think you're above science. That you're discerning, that you know something all the simpletons out there don't (those simpletons known as scientists). Heck, if THEY don't believe in the same "spiritual" quasi-godlike mystic pablum, they must be stone-cold unhuman drones, right?
I'll be the first to agree that corporations -- be it in medicine, insurance, whatever -- are out to screw us and are likely keeping who knows what from us, but I will not sacrifice my mind to the sort of bizarre conspiratorial crap that Oprah advocates.
(Full disclosure: I actually think she does a damn lot of good in certain arenas. My mom worships the ground she walks on, and I won't deny that it's ostensibly good that she encourages reading, or charitable giving, or social engagement, or living for today, or whatnot. Or that she highlights some social ills, like rape, domestic abuse, etc, as no other could. But when she veers into anti-rational territory, the gloves are off).
Posted by: Fedor | October 23, 2009 6:37 AM
Hey, someone now finally put up a video of the discussion on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILbCjL2lri4
"Oprah vs atheists in Denmark"
Gonna watch it now...
Posted by: fishonabicycle
|
October 23, 2009 8:16 AM
'@ the video: Oprah thinks "there isn't a real middle class" in Denmark, wtf? Look at the women you're talking to.'
Uh, no, the woman with the 6 million kroner apartment she showcased is upper class, and a twit. There are loads of Danes who aren't lean, tall, and blonde and are gawking at her apartment for being huge while Oprah can't get over how small it is.
Yeah, I watched it, because my husband wanted to know what Oprah had to say about Denmark. I agree with #6, and add how annoying it was that she kept saying Copen-hah-gen.
Living here is pretty nice, if you're Danish, but it can actually be quite hostile to foreigners.
Posted by: jay
|
October 23, 2009 12:19 PM
I live in Denmark, and if that's a normal, Danish home my name is PZ Myers.
of course. And I can assure you that PZ Meyers is a typical US man.
Posted by: windy | October 24, 2009 6:26 AM
It's very unlikely that Oprah believes that everyone in Denmark is upper class, so it would still help if she noticed that the women in the cafe didn't look like they live in a dictatorship of the proletariat. I haven't seen the apartment part yet.
Posted by: Knockgoats
|
October 24, 2009 7:03 AM
Jadehawk,
Isn't Oprah using "middle class" in normal American fashion, to mean what Brits (or I would guess most Europeans) would call "working class"? That is, people who work with their hands, don't own much, but are not destitute? Income differentials are low in Denmark, so you can't distinguish classes at a glance.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | October 24, 2009 7:07 AM
See, I don't know if that's accurate at all. In the U.S., some 80% of the population thinks they're the middle class; and depending on where they stand, they have all different ideas of what being "middle class" is... so I'm very confused as to what Oprah might imagine "middle class" is that it makes her think there isn't one in Denmark :-/Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | October 24, 2009 7:11 AM
though, maybe you're right that the chunk of Denmark she's seen might look more "upper class" for reasons that have nothing to do with class... I just remember my mom's (average european middle class) impression of San Jose, CA as a giant slum because of the "cart-board" houses :-p
Posted by: Knockgoats
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October 24, 2009 7:33 AM
Jadehawk,
I see what you mean. Oh well, why on Earth am I worrying about Oprah's effusions and what she might have meant by them?
Posted by: JBlilie
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October 27, 2009 4:22 PM
Out of town for a week. Catching up.
OK if I puke on hearing the word "Oprah?"
Posted by: JBlilie
|
October 27, 2009 4:27 PM
John McCain thinks he's middle-class and he makes upwards of $5 million per year (which places him in the top 2% of US households.) Hard to claim the middel when 98% are on one side of you ...
Posted by: Nivi | October 30, 2009 5:33 PM
It seems like she couldn't bring herself to even say the word "atheist".
I hated the way she tried to put words into their mouth-saying they were "spiritual", not religious. What was worse was the nodding (albeit reluctant) by one of the women in response to this.