…and this is a 
It's disgraceful. During some football game, our mascot, Goldy the Gopher, mocked a player on the opposing team who thought it was appropriate to ostentatiously kneel down and publicly pray.
Now Goldy wasn't the disgrace (I have a new-found respect for our goofy guy in a costume), nor was the young lady who came out and gave him a fist-bump afterwards. Hooray for them! The guy making a show of his piety…yeah, he's a disgrace, but he's not on the UM team. No, the real disgrace is our craven PR flacks.
Minnesota spokesman Dan Wolter says the stunt was "plainly a mistake" and the mascot didn't intend to offend anyone or trivialize religion.
I call shenanigans. He was too trying to trivialize a religious ritual (although, admittedly, he wasn't trivializing it quite as much as the clueless goon who thinks the almighty ruler of the universe will help him win a game), and we like him for it. I think it ought to be a Minnesota tradition to point and laugh loudly at any player who thinks he gets holy credit with a deity for catching a ball.
Greg claims it was me, but I know which of the two of us lives a lot closer to Minneapolis than the other.
You know, I'm just the guy who would run onto the field in subsequent games and make fun of the prayin' — just to take the heat off Goldy, you know. I wonder if the opposing teams will demand extra security in the future?
Comments
Posted by: Carlie
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October 22, 2009 9:46 PM
How dare they claim Goldy was mocking the player! He was obviously joining in, as all evangelistic Christians would want! Wasn't the guy ostentatiously praying in order to show off and be a good witness and let everyone know that they ought to be praying too? Why, Goldy was just converting, that's all.
Posted by: Greg Laden
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October 22, 2009 9:46 PM
PZ: We know you were in that suit:
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/10/pz_myers_caught_red_handed.php
But if you were not, please note that Goldie is a girl, not a boy (see link within the link I provide for proof of Goldie's gender that I personally obtained a few months back.)
Posted by: Benjamin Geiger
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October 22, 2009 9:47 PM
No, see, I think he didn't do enough.
Guy's kneeling there... putting his face at right around crotch level... what better way to doubly offend the crotchety (pun intended) religious old farts?
Posted by: Sanction
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October 22, 2009 9:47 PM
I do point and laugh loudly, but it might be more effective as far as starting a tradition if I were to do so in public rather than at home, where my maximum audience is three. Four if you count the cat.
Posted by: Crewvy
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October 22, 2009 9:48 PM
Cue the Pavlovian responses from all the offended creotards.
Posted by: Benjamin Geiger
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October 22, 2009 9:49 PM
Sanction:
Three? I live by myself, so my audience isn't even that big. And I don't even have a cat.
Posted by: CalGeorge | October 22, 2009 9:52 PM
Maybe Goldy was trying to counter-pray, to neutralize the opposing team's prayer with one of his own.
Only question is, did it work?
Posted by: eddie
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October 22, 2009 9:53 PM
you wouldn't point and laugh if he'd been bowing towards mecca (/fatwa envy) What're the chances of that happening.
Posted by: Ryan F Stello | October 22, 2009 9:55 PM
Ah, I miss UMTC. Such a great campus!
Well, except for that Bruininks jerk.
Posted by: Marcus J. Ranum
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October 22, 2009 9:55 PM
Wait a minnit... Now, if the next play was "miraculous" and unlikely, wouldn't the opposing team have a good argument if they said that goober's praying was cheating because it invited the involvement of a capricious multi-dimensional all-powerful football fan that likes idiots?
Posted by: Dr. J | October 22, 2009 9:56 PM
Obviously the prayer worked since Penn State won the game. Proof of god's existence, it's never been so clear.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | October 22, 2009 9:56 PM
what? that's it? that wasn't even proper mocking! pffft. the religious are really fucking sensitive.
Posted by: PZ Myers
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October 22, 2009 9:56 PM
For completeness, I should mention that the other team beat us, 20-0. God must have been offended. He won't get off his ass for starving children in Ethiopia or abused women in Irish poorhouses, but if a gopher mocks a football player, he will wrathfully smite the scoreboard.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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October 22, 2009 9:59 PM
Besides the stadium laughing at the player, the scoreboard/jumbotron should be flashing Matthew 6:6 as a reminder Jebus frowned on ostentatious public prayer.
Posted by: Chris | October 22, 2009 10:00 PM
Obviously his praying worked, with Penn St. coming out with 20 points while UofMinn got a huge goose egg. So can we chalk this up to God's existence?
Posted by: JackC
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October 22, 2009 10:00 PM
Frankly, I was expecting Goldie to tackle the guy at any second. I saw no "disrespect" at all - I kept waiting for it. Maybe I am just not seeing enough from the North end of a South-bound Goldie.
but i really think Goldie blew it by at least not tackling the guy the instant he came out of the pose.
THAT would have been worth loosing the job over. Maybe.
JC
Posted by: Travis | October 22, 2009 10:03 PM
I am shocked. I watched the video and expected so much more action, some real mocking to occur. That was not mocking.
Posted by: Greg Laden
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October 22, 2009 10:06 PM
Greg claims it was me, but I know which of the two of us lives a lot closer to Minneapolis than the other.
Curses!!!!
Posted by: Abstruseoddity
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October 22, 2009 10:14 PM
My world is getting smaller. Pharyngula and college football message boards are all I read.
Another other godless read Rivals or The-Mainboard?
Posted by: Rey Fox
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October 22, 2009 10:27 PM
I wonder if he always does it in front of the opposing team's cheerleaders and mascot.
Posted by: Charlie Foxtrot
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October 22, 2009 10:31 PM
The only time I see footballers take a knee here in Oz is when they've got a concussion.
Maybe the gopher was asking if the guy was alright?
Not standing up, glazed look in eyes, muttering to himself...yep, concussed!
Posted by: Insightful Ape
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October 22, 2009 10:31 PM
Haha! That was great!
Posted by: cmflyer
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October 22, 2009 10:33 PM
What was she doing after the player stopped praying? Looked like trying to get a handshake or something and he just ignored the gopher.
Posted by: DJM | October 22, 2009 10:43 PM
I noticed Penn State won 20-O. I'm sold; this is proof. I'm going to be born again.
Posted by: Tolerance | October 22, 2009 10:51 PM
Mr. Myers,
Your own mockery of the gopher's distasteful mockery is just another example of a growing intolerance of religion, public or private, in America.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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October 22, 2009 10:55 PM
Care to show us the tolerance religion and people like yourself shows toward atheists? Golden rule us.Posted by: Aseem
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October 22, 2009 10:55 PM
#25 Concern troll is concerned.
Posted by: Traffic Demon | October 22, 2009 10:56 PM
Tolerance @25
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Posted by: WowbaggerOM
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October 22, 2009 10:57 PM
Oh, I agree - and, fingers crossed, it's going to keep growing until the very thought of admitting to adhering to a religion is so embarrassing that no-one will even contemplate doing it in public.
Posted by: truthspeaker
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October 22, 2009 11:01 PM
When I watched the clip it didn't look like he was praying. His hand was over his face.
Posted by: JM Shep | October 22, 2009 11:04 PM
I think Goldy could have very well been praying with the player. Maybe Penn State should apologize for the player being a jerk for refusing to shake Goldy's hand.
Then again, maybe everyone should just get over it; it's football...
Posted by: WowbaggerOM
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October 22, 2009 11:05 PM
What I'm wondering is what the reaction would have been if the guy had pulled out a spellbook and a talisman and started chanting and performing some kind of magic against the opposition? Would they have been as apologetic if the mascot had mocked that?
Posted by: flyonthewall
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October 22, 2009 11:05 PM
I wonder if there would be this high level of faux indignation if he had been praying to Thor to wield his mighty hammer.
Posted by: Louise Van Court | October 22, 2009 11:07 PM
Here is some information from the Penn State bio page for Jerome Hayes about the challenges this young man has overcome these past two years.
In light of this information it is quite likely that he might have prayed for an injury free game as much as for a win. It does not look like he was “making a show of his piety” at all most people were not even paying attention to him. The crowd had plenty of other things to see with all the other players walking about on the field, he was in the far corner of the field having a personal moment not bothering anyone else. It is his right to pray in this way and he did not deserve to be mocked by the mascot doing a copy cat of his position. His non-reaction to the mascot shows class. I applaud Jerome Hayes for his character.
Posted by: 5cent
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October 22, 2009 11:12 PM
My sympathies go out to his doctors and physical therapists for the lack of recognition they got for the work they did for him.
Posted by: Pareidolius | October 22, 2009 11:19 PM
Well that's it then. They're going to shitcan poor Goldy, give the costume a sparkly halo and change its name to Godly and make it pray at every game now. And yes, Number Twenty Five, I am sitting here in the privacy of my kitchen thinking about what a fuckwit Yaweh is and generally being intolerant of religion. What do you propose to do about it? Huh?
I thought so . . .
Posted by: llewelly | October 22, 2009 11:24 PM
That's a suspiciously good alibi. But in fact no-one can vouch for it except your wife, your computer, and your book, all of whom have obvious ulterior motives.Posted by: WowbaggerOM
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October 22, 2009 11:36 PM
Why didn't he pray for his god to heal his injuries completely, restoring him to full health?
So, if he had whipped out his penis and was playing with it, that wouldn't count as indecent exposure because 'most people were not even paying attention to him'?
Why didn't he just think the thoughts in his head? Surely the omnicognisant, omniscient Christian god could have heard him, even if he was genuflecting like a slave is forced to grovel before a cruel master?
Why isn't the mascot entitled to mock him? If he'd affected any other kind of pose then no-one would be making a fuss at all; why is a religious act given privilege over a non-religious one?
I don't. Begging a capricious sky-monster to intervene in a football game, rather than asking for world peace, or an end to hunger, or the cessation of disease would be showing character; this pleading over a complete non-event is the antithesis of character.
Posted by: mrcreosote | October 22, 2009 11:49 PM
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/homo-consumericus/200812/is-god-fickle-in-his-allegiance-specific-sports-teams
Posted by: Pierce Presley | October 22, 2009 11:50 PM
What the hell is this guy, the fifth cousing thrice removed of the praying idiot in Hoosiers? Who had to be reminded that there was, in fact, a game he was supposed to be playing in?
I mean, I don't care if athletes want to completely ignore their own obsessive chasing after prowess in mind-numbing hours of practice, preparation and positive self-talk. (And yes, at one time I sort of resembled them. But then I got out of high school and figured out the Raiders weren't going to draft me no matter how crazy Al Davis got.) I don't care that they're going to ignore their own manual of operations (aka Matt. 6:6). But going over to the other team's sideline for your little chat? This atheist lineman might have speared your ass for disrespect. Take your fairy talk to your side of the damned field!
Posted by: stptrck75
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October 22, 2009 11:57 PM
Did you hear the guy in the video? ..."He totally mocked that guys prayer. That's not cool."
First of all, what sort of self-righteous douchebag feels the need to pray in front of thousands of people? It's all an act folks. That's all church services are too. An act.
No doubt the player feels vindicated in his action because they won the game. Praise Jebus!
Posted by: Cycle Ninja
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October 22, 2009 11:59 PM
Rick Reilly wrote a column about on-field evangelism back in 1991. Which, if memory serves, was about the time when both Reilly and the evangelism were starting to wear out their welcome.
Posted by: Rowen
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October 23, 2009 12:00 AM
Louise Van Court,
Give me a break. That young man hasn't had to suffer through "challenges." Let me tell you what a real challenge is.
Two years ago, I suffered the same injury he did, only I was at a dance audition, with no health insurance, and since it was an audition, not a show, I couldn't get any workman's comp. I went to the ER, but that ended up only causing me MAJOR problems later on when it turned out I actually needed surgery. In the two year period since then, I've had the surgery, but have spent numerous hours yelling at my insurance company. I've also been laid off, TWICE, and have had to find new apartments, TWICE (first, the landlord went nuts, wouldn't pay for anything, wanted to raise the rent and accused me of destroying his house. second, my roommate kicked me out so his cousin could move out of her parents house).
But, I'm still here. I work a job that pays shit, but I like the people there. My knee is more or less better, even though I had to cut my PT short because my insurance ran out. I'm almost done moving and have spare time to audition again.
This young man has had the world presented to him on a platter. And what does he do? He makes a big presentation of PRAYING in the MIDDLE OF A STADIUM before a game. Why couldn't he just pray in the locker room? or at his apartment?
I can think of a few reasons why, and frankly, none of them indicate he's the type of person I want to give a shit about.
Posted by: Bechamel
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October 23, 2009 12:04 AM
I only wish the Penn State guy had done it during the game, where the rules would have mandated a 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for removing his helmet on the field of play.
Posted by: James | October 23, 2009 12:40 AM
We could go crash a poll -- regarding whether the mascot crossed the line -- at http://www.twincities.com/topstories/ci_13605801
Just sayin'.
Posted by: Ryan F. | October 23, 2009 12:40 AM
Does being an atheist really mean you have to think it's okay to publicly mock prayer? Just seems a little ridiculous to me. He wasn't proselytizing. He wasn't forcing his views. He was just have a personal moment by himself. I think it's completely worth while to fight against people who try to push their religion into politics, but to make fun of a guy because he took a minute by himself to pray? Kinda pathetic, actually.
Posted by: Ben Mueller-Heaslip
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October 23, 2009 12:43 AM
All things bright and beautiful
all creatures great and small
all things wise and wonderful
the lord God made them all
(except for Goldy the Gopher
who was made by the Devil
to destroy our nation)
Ahh-mmen
Posted by: James | October 23, 2009 12:46 AM
He wasn't by himself, you'll notice, Ryan. And as someone who grew up praying a great deal, even over sporting events, I can attest that it's perfectly possible to do so quietly and without kneeling and genuflecting in front of a crowd of football fans. Kirby Puckett crossing himself subtly before every at-bat? Just a quiet, even charming, example of baseball-player superstition, like never stepping on the foul line on the way to the dugout. This is a little different, I think.
I don't care in the least whether a football player is talking to his imaginary friend per se, but there's an element of "Screw you, asswipes! God loves Penn more!" to the act of kneeling in an end zone. Mock away. That dude's God either (a) isn't real, or (b) can take it.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | October 23, 2009 12:47 AM
a personal moment by himself? on the field?he had all the time in the world to have personal moments while they were still in the cabins. on the field, you don't have "personal moments"
and the job of the mascot is to make fun of the other team. I don't see why a dude praying publicly gets to have an exemption from that.
Posted by: Jeeves | October 23, 2009 12:48 AM
"He makes a big presentation of PRAYING in the MIDDLE OF A STADIUM before a game"
He was on one knee for thirty seconds in the corner of the endzone while the rest of his teammates are running around the field. C'mon, I get it, imaginary god and all but its absurd to think that he was causing a scene.
Posted by: Rick T | October 23, 2009 12:56 AM
All you who think that praying in front of thousands of people is a private moment that shows the good character of this humble young man need to remember what Jesus said about such prayers. Those who do it publicly get, as their reward, the reaction of the people who are subjected to watching it. In this case, a little disrespect. Those who pray in private get the ear of the almighty. So it is said.
So according to Jesus, the dudes an arrogant dickhead and he deserves whatever reaction he gets.
Posted by: WowbaggerOM
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October 23, 2009 12:57 AM
andThe player isn't being mocked by atheists for praying on the field. Those who seek to privilege an act of religion by apologising for a mascot doing to that act of religion exactly what mascots are there to do are the ones being mocked.
Read for context, people.
Posted by: Cujo359 | October 23, 2009 1:01 AM
I'm a Penn State alum. I feel that if anyone owes anyone an apology, it's the showboaters who were out there flaunting their religions. I doubt I'll live long enough to see that happen.
Posted by: Nick
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October 23, 2009 1:10 AM
"The player isn't being mocked by atheists for praying on the field."
"The guy making a show of his piety... yeah, he's a disgrace, but he's not on the UM team."
"...the clueless goon who thinks the almighty ruler of the universe will help him win a game..."
"...it ought to be a Minnesota tradition to point and laugh loudly at any player who thinks he gets holy credit with a deity for catching a ball."
I'm all for mocking organized faith, I really am. But give me a fucking break.
Posted by: WowbaggerOM
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October 23, 2009 1:23 AM
Nick,
Sorry, what I should have written is the original post isn't mocking the player for praying on the field. As PZ put it, 'No, the real disgrace is our craven PR flacks.'
Posted by: MikeS29 | October 23, 2009 1:40 AM
So if the guy was dancing, Glody would have mocked him. If he was walking funny, Goldy would have mocked him. If he was skipping and whistling, Goldy would have mocked him. But mock him while praying? Why the fuck do religionists think they should somehow be immune to mockery?
Posted by: Jeeves | October 23, 2009 1:45 AM
" ..he wasn't trivializing it quite as much as the clueless goon.."
Goon, really? What was thuggish and intimidating(?) about his behavior? If he was bodily forcing his teammates to drink holy water I can see your point but all I can see is a young, misguided guy. Bill Donahue? Goon. This kid, eh, not so much. And if you're basing your opinion of his intelligence and general worth from a thirty second video........oh christ, (I know what I'm in for) everybody, say it with me, Concern Troll, Concern Troll, be gone! That being said, my opinion still stands.
Posted by: Nick
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October 23, 2009 1:55 AM
Wowbagger,
All of those quotes are from the original post.
PZ is great, but on rare occasions (like this post) he acts like a bit of a dick. I would not care at all if it were not for the fact that he is (whether he likes it or not) a spokesperson for atheism (one of many, but still.)
By all means, insult and mock the PR statement. But some football player kneeling in the corner of the stadium participating in a 30-second ritual that is really just a sign-of-the-cross away from meditation? Give me a break.
Posted by: Perplexed
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October 23, 2009 1:59 AM
Wow it signed me in that took a while I wish I had something of value to say now.
“the clueless goon who thinks the almighty ruler of the universe will help him win a game”
Is it not a little unfair to assume that is what the player was praying for? It may just have been a keep everyone safe kind of prayer, of course the usefulness of it remains the same.
Posted by: formosus
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October 23, 2009 2:01 AM
Mascots are intended to be obnoxious, and to some extent, offensive. The person playing the mascot was just doing their job - harassing the other team.
I'm with PZ on this one. Praying on the field - no big deal. Getting mocked for praying on the field - no big deal. Having the college step forward and apologize for the actions of the mascot - spineless. Religion needs to lose it's privileged social status. It sure as shit doesn't deserve it.
Posted by: formosus
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October 23, 2009 2:05 AM
To clarify my post-
This is much ado about nothing. The player had every right to have his little public display of religion. And the mascot had every right to harass him.
Posted by: Bride of Shrek OM
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October 23, 2009 2:11 AM
It reminds me of this reader letter from the Letterbollocks section of Viz mag
British Pharyngulties may appreciate the erudite nature of the esteemed magazine I got that from.
Posted by: multipath | October 23, 2009 2:26 AM
I'm a big college football fan, and this annoys me simply because mascots are at their most irritating when they're focusing their attention on one player. Same with opposing fans. Cheer for your team, leave the other one alone. (Not that I agree with that strategy when it comes to the religion debate!)
As far as the actual mock praying, it's all been said above.
Posted by: Aseem
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October 23, 2009 2:48 AM
Formosus at #60 and #61 nails it. Can't be put better.
Posted by: Cyberguy
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October 23, 2009 2:58 AM
So Jerome Hayes keeps getting injured playing football, but he still plays football. Maybe the injuries are God's way of telling Jerome Hayes to take up fishing instead!!!
Or Jerome Hayes' persistence in playing football in the clear face of divine disapproval couldn't just be related to the resultant money, could it? Maybe he was praying to Mammon instead?
Posted by: miss-padfoot
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October 23, 2009 3:10 AM
I think the people bawling over this are being a little too fucking sensitive. In my city, baseball fans call Manny Ramirez "Cheater!"* when he comes to bat, make fun of opposing players' names (Evan Longoria became "Eva" in last year's World Series), and boo players and coaches--the opponents and their own--without any provocation. At my school and at the nearby sports bars, the most popular cheer is "Fuck [opposing team name]!" Nobody bats an eyelash at any of this. But a mascot imitating the posture of a player kneeling to pray is such an insensitive asshole that the administration flacks need to issue a public apology? What?
*Don't get me wrong, he totally deserves it.
Posted by: AJ Milne
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October 23, 2009 3:12 AM
Yeah, re 60 and 61, too. Exactly. No frickin' big deal.
And look, whiny religionists: get over yerselves, already. Praying to invisible, magical sky dudes... well, listen, I expect you already know this anyway, but it does look pretty stupid...
Stupid enough, yes, that even someone in a giant, plush gopher costume is gonna be moved to point and laugh, on occasion, if you go and draw attention to your stupidity in public. And this precious little privilege of yours you've tried to insist upon until now, where somehow that's just not done--that people aren't to point and laugh if they happen to notice you being stupid--well, look: it's over. Hate to have to break it to ya and all, but that's just how it is. Ya had a nice ride, had a real sweet deal, and now it's over. That particular presumed 'right' was never yours to demand, and you're not going to get get away with demanding it anymore. I suggest you get used to it.
And I mean, fuck, seriously. You people are such whiners... I mean, it ain't as if someone in a giant, plush gopher costume barged into yer church to mock you during yer services...
(Eyes light up...)
Sayyyyyyy...
(Gets coat...)
(/'Scuse me. Gotta go rent a costume fer somethin'...)
Posted by: Rorschach | October 23, 2009 3:17 AM
I am personally offended and shocked by this display of open partisanship by the Lord.
Given it was my club that lost the game.
Sounds like a big a-hole to me, this Lord.
Posted by: Marcus J. Ranum
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October 23, 2009 3:30 AM
Mr Diety actually addressed the whole "which football team do you support?" question here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF--G1zmyTw&feature=channel
It's his stated policy to let the best team win, apparently.
So who needs him.
Posted by: The Chemist | October 23, 2009 3:48 AM
Here's what I saw:
1. Player is nearing mascot.
2. Mascot gears up for some shenanigans.
3. Mascot comes up to player.
4. Player starts kneeling in front mascot.
5. Mascot doesn't know what to make of it, jumps in front of player and starts imitating.
6. Mascot realizes, way to late player is in mid-prayer.
7. Mascot gets up with player and tries to make a friendly gesture to mitigate the mistake.
8. Douchebags Up to No Good (DUNG) catch it on film to spread on YouTube to prove Christians are surrounded by oppressive Atheists.
However, let's face it- mascots represent an entire team/school and while they're supposed to act stupid, they are supposed to shy away from serious controversy. One can argue turnabout is fair play, but a mascot isn't going to grab say- the Pennsylvania state flag (should some player choose to come onto the field waving it) and rub his fuzzy ass with it. If you ask me, ostentatious displays of locationism and nationalism are equally, if not more, worthy of mockery than religion- but let's leave the mascots out of it.
Posted by: The Chemist | October 23, 2009 3:51 AM
Gah! Me @ #70
That should be "too late". I know better, I really do damnit!
Posted by: Bride of Shrek OM
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October 23, 2009 3:55 AM
Hi Rorschach
I'm gathering you'd find it rather pleasing if I should wear my FCB Munchen shirt to the conference then!
Sorry I haven't been in touch, trauma ( or rather sibling induced melodrama) to deal with. I'm home alone tonight so after I've put the kids to bed, I'll pour a glass of fine verdhelo and send an email to the sucker on night duty.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | October 23, 2009 4:00 AM
hissssssssssssssPosted by: Rorschach | October 23, 2009 4:03 AM
I promise I wear mine too ! :-)
The last 10 minutes of that game took 5 years off my life expectancy, I tell you.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | October 23, 2009 4:15 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4q02-MDb-0
Posted by: Rorschach | October 23, 2009 4:23 AM
Jadehawk, if Patricia was here, it would be spanking couch for you now...:-)
Marcus Ranum, thanx for the Mr Deity link !
Posted by: Bride of Shrek OM
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October 23, 2009 4:32 AM
Oh Jadehawk
I believe that's almost a fighting song. I can just about get the gist of it but admittedly my German is on par with my French. In other words, limited to establishing the whereabouts of toilets, buses and restaurants, flirting with locals in bars and, of course the most important phrase a woman can say in any country- "how much for that pair of shoes"? ( which I am proud to boast, along with the word "fuck", I can say in 9 languages)
Posted by: JHS
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October 23, 2009 4:50 AM
Gotta admit, I'm not sure how productive it is to venerate this sort of behavior. Imagine if Lindsey Lohan or Paris Hilton suddenly decided to advocate for atheism and flashed their boobs for all the tabloids and yelled "yay atheism!"......it wouldn't really do much for the cause, and it would make them synonymous with atheism. Do we really want a stupid team mascot associated with the serious push for rationalism and science literacy?
I agree, it is asinine for a player to flash his cross for all to see...which is really what he's doing, let's call it like it is. These "quiet moment of piety" are really about racking up points for demonstrated godliness. Spectators of a similar bent can have an "awwww" moment when they see it and feel affirmed in their delusion. It's a "nice" moment. (See: my Oprah comments).
But when a random entity -- the mascot -- does something random that COULD be associated with a much more serious issue, I really don't think it does us any favors to cheer it. The guy in the suit wasn't making fun of the praying player to make a point, he was doing it because mascots are loud and generally do loud, mocking things. I'd bet that the guy in the suit isn't an atheist, he's just a guy who wears a suit for cash. So I'd be careful before we identify too much with him or his actions.
Posted by: strange gods before me, OM
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October 23, 2009 5:15 AM
JHS, I'd bet you're correct that the gopher is not an atheist. I've seen ostentatious displays of religious piety mocked by players before, who were not themselves atheists. Whether they were mocking the public piety, or mocking the idea that God could care about your team when he so obviously cares about our team, I don't know. But either way it's public religion being mocked. I think it's healthy for society if theists can mock public faith.
Posted by: strange gods before me, OM
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October 23, 2009 5:24 AM
It's college football. The players aren't being paid for it. Most of them will never play professionally.
Gopher did nothing wrong. Gopher's actions do not require justification. But if they did, Hayes' net worth would not be justification. If he's a typical college student, he has plenty of credit card debt.
Posted by: Dunc | October 23, 2009 5:52 AM
Do these people have a special version of the Bible with Matthew 6:1-6 removed or something?
Posted by: Matt Penfold
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October 23, 2009 6:21 AM
I suspect they just don't read the Bible. It would explain why so many are surprised when Jesus is compared to a socialist.
Posted by: Steve P. | October 23, 2009 6:56 AM
P.Z.,
Why would God 'get off His ass' to help those kids and Irish women? He looked all over for you in Addis Ababa and Belfast but you were nowhere to be found.
He said 'The heck with this. P.Z.'s lazier than I am. When he and his troupe send me a note that they've coughed up time, energy and money to alleviate bloated stomaches and bruised eyes, then yeah, maybe I'll listen".
Posted by: Albert Samuels | October 23, 2009 7:06 AM
I look forward to the day when religion will be such an embarrassment that we will no longer need to engage in childish tactics such as mockery, ridicule, and intolerance.Posted by: Flea
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October 23, 2009 7:13 AM
THIS is considered "mocking"? They complaint about THAT? Someone apologized for THIS? My Gawd, something is fucked up in Minnesota!
Posted by: Eupraxsophy | October 23, 2009 7:20 AM
I don't know what the big deal is. Why should UM apologize
for a mascot's actions? What harm was done? All I see is two people exercising their rights. One is freedom of religion and the other is freedom to expess one's opinion.
How does anyone even know that Goldy wasn't praying themself? What if this had been another player from UM that was praying with Jerome Hayes? Would the Christians have been offended then? And what about Jerome Hayes not shaking Goldy's hand? Is it not the Christian way to forgive when one feels they are offended?
I guess the Christian way is to be a showboating arrogant jerk that demands forgiveness when they think they are in the slightest way offended.
Posted by: Rob
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October 23, 2009 7:20 AM
So this guy couldn't pray in the locker room? Had to show the entire stadium what a good boy he is or what?
Posted by: windy | October 23, 2009 7:37 AM
God is a passive-aggressive little shit then.
Posted by: Kassul | October 23, 2009 7:46 AM
Steve P. @ 83:
Is there something special about PZ? Will God only start doing miracles that reliever their suffering once PZ starts doing [actions X, Y, Z]? Or is it the case that ALL humans need to start doing those actions first? All atheists(but not theists?)
Clearly it's not sufficient for some atheists to contribute to charity and do charity work. Many do.
(According to generic Christian theology) God currently has ample power to reduce the suffering of the afflicted and does not appear to himself in the above scenarios. If he is completely indifferent and doesn't interfere with the planet at all (all Deist-y) that's kinda asshole-ish enough(assuming he even notices us). But if he uses his omnipotent power for football? Then yeah, he needs to look at his priorities...
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 23, 2009 7:55 AM
Wow. That is one of the worst arguments in defense of a god I've ever heard.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you?
Am I?
Posted by: Stephen Wells
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October 23, 2009 8:05 AM
I give blood. 17 units so far. Saving lives on the installment plan. That costs me time and energy and a certain amount of pain and, you know _blood_. But apparently an omnipotent and omnibenevolent deity can't be arsed to heal the sick and comfort the afflicted. Steve P fails harder than any previous theist on this blog.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 23, 2009 8:13 AM
Honestly I don't see how this could be construed with any accuracy that the mascot was mocking the prayer. I think he was going to do his mascot duty and fuck with the opposing player in some way but when the Penn State player went for the kneel the gopher was kind of at a loss for what to do.
I could be wrong, but I didn't immediately jump to thinking that the Gopher was being irreverent.
Now I'd love to think he was but that's different than knowing he was.
Unless I missed something that corroborates the idea that that was the gopher's intention.
Posted by: FordPrefect
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October 23, 2009 8:14 AM
You shouldn't be surprised by this... This is the same god who feels that weeping images of some chick he boned 2,000 years ago are compelling miracles to give hope to the faithful...Posted by: charley | October 23, 2009 8:16 AM
Players should take care of their personal game preparation before taking the field. Suit up, pray, pick your nose, whatever. Once you're out there it's inappropriate to do things to draw attention to yourself, and doing so makes you fair game for mockery.
Posted by: Carlie | October 23, 2009 8:18 AM
Rev., it's a pretty common theme - they think that Franklin's "God helps them who help themselves" is actually in the Bible somewhere, and/or that there's really no reason for God to do anything that people could conceivably do. They don't realize this makes their God look like a big asshole who would rather blame people for not trying hard enough than to wave his pinky finger and stop people from suffering terribly and dying and stuff.
Basically, it's the story of Stone Soup, except instead of the moral of the story being that people working together can accomplish a lot and help each other, the moral is OMG, the stone really WAS magic!
Posted by: Anri
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October 23, 2009 8:22 AM
Louise Van Court sez (in part):
I don't.
He ignored a real, live human being (albeit one in a very silly outfit) for the sake of his imaginary sky-buddy. This is a near-trivial example of the practice, but that is essentially what is wrong with religion - ignoring real people in favor of listening to a deity.
JHS sez:
Except that we're not actually doing that - we're laughing along with a clown that is doing what clowns do - and what clowns should not have to apologize for.
I dunno, that might be a wash. Aside from the 'just spell my name right' aspect of any press being good press, I'd really like to see Bill D's head asplode if something like this were to occour.
I've always been a little leary about having stupid team mascots associated with institutions that promote the serious push for rationalism and scientific literacy - but, there they are, so we might as well get a little mileage out of them.
Posted by: windy | October 23, 2009 8:23 AM
That raises an interesting point. If Jesus can give enough blood for millions of Catholics to drink, why doesn't he give any to the blood bank?
Posted by: Eidolon | October 23, 2009 8:35 AM
Steve P@83:
Let's see - your gawd is all knowing, omnipotent. So why, exactly does PZ or any of us for that matter, have to do anything for the Big Sky Daddy to set things to rights?
As for the thread topic, the fact is that Hayes was just demonstrating what a good godbot he is by having a private moment in front of a few thousand people. That fact alone is worthy of mockery. The PR department is also deserving for the complete lack of spine shown and elevating religious behavior above any other behaviors as being untouchable.
Shit. If Gawd is offended, why can't he/she/it just reduce Goldie to a pile of ashes with a thunderbolt? honestly, the quality of smiting is so bad these days...
Posted by: Kassul | October 23, 2009 8:38 AM
@windy: I'd always just assumed that Jesusblood is definitely BLOOD and all(the priest told me so), but that it's the wrong blood type.
We normal humans have A, B, AB, O & Rh+/- for all those, but Jesus (by virtue of being wholly human AND wholly divine, somehow) had GG blood. It's incompatible as both whole blood and as plasma. YET ANOTHER MIRACLE! ?
Posted by: Stephen Wells
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October 23, 2009 8:59 AM
It is of course taken as read that the actual reason I give blood is so that my glistening ichor shall run through the veins of many, until that day when I summon my thralls unto their unholy duty.
Posted by: Carlie | October 23, 2009 9:11 AM
Stephen Wells - I am so saying that to the Red Cross person the next time I give blood. :)
If we're going to pick up Steve P.'s glove that he tried to slap PZ with and then threw down at us, I spent a few years donating platelets as well. Does that get me some "get out of death" certificates from God I can pass around? 'Cause he hasn't sent those yet, and I think they must be earning a lot of interest.
Posted by: kopd
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October 23, 2009 9:12 AM
If more Christians would read and obey Matt 6 and 1Peter 3:15, then I think the world would be a better place. The interesting thing is that in all my visits to churches before giving it up, I don't remember a preacher ever visiting those chapters of the Bible. And since I only ready about 1/3 of the Bible before becoming an atheist, I never saw them myself until later. Maybe when atheists go to football games they should hold up signs that say "Matt 6:5-6".
Posted by: nigelTheBold
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October 23, 2009 9:18 AM
Not entirely true. Most get scholarships. I'm not conversant enough with sports scholarships to know whether their performance relates to the amount of scholarship they receive, but I'm pretty sure the school has a minimum performance standard which players must meet. Otherwise, every shmoe could get a sports scholarship.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM
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October 23, 2009 9:20 AM
I can't give blood. Had sex with a man (at least) once since 1978.
Posted by: Ryan F Stello | October 23, 2009 9:21 AM
James (#45),
In the interest of keeping this going:
Did Goldy Gopher cross the line?
Total Votes = 401
Yes - 33.16%
No - 63.09%
Don't care/Don't Know - 3.74%
Posted by: Tolerance | October 23, 2009 9:22 AM
Wow! Sorry I intruded. I really didn't mean to stir this up. I've learned by your reactions to do my own thing and shut my mouth. Next time I'll be more careful about the turf I'm treading on. Wish you all well.
Posted by: kopd
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October 23, 2009 9:24 AM
@Windy, #97
That raises an interesting point. If Jesus can give enough blood for millions of Catholics to drink, why doesn't he give any to the blood bank?
Good idea! If transubstantiation works, then they should be able to hook a bottle of consecrated wine up to an IV of anybody who needs a transfusion, right? Personally, I'd prefer the real blood first and the wine when I'v recovered from the transfusion, but it's still a funny thought. :-)
Posted by: MAJeff, OM
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October 23, 2009 9:29 AM
Well, tolerance, your comment was stupid.
We all "tolerate" religion and the religious. We live around religious folks and interact with them all the time. What we don't do is praise, welcome and celebrate inanity. You seem to think we must not only tolerate silly ideas, but never point out that they're silly, never criticize when they're evil, and never make fun of just plain stupid activity. But of course, ostentatious displays of "piety" in front of thousand of people is PRAISE WORTHY, and not something that should ever, ever be criticized or made fun of or...well, or anything other than saying "Yay for you! Jesus would be so proud of you showing off by praying in public!" Right?
Posted by: Matt Penfold
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October 23, 2009 9:29 AM
Kopd,
I have heard a couple of Anglican clergy say that public expressions of religion should be avoided. It is not clear whether that was on theological or aesthetic grounds though.
Posted by: 37ism | October 23, 2009 9:47 AM
This monotheism thing is so offensive to me, the United Nations should step in and reestablish the respect that is due to my ThirtySeven True Gods. This kneeling-to-one-god routine is heathenism, an insult to all who know the true Gods, and it amounts to hate speech.
At the next game, the TSTGs will send their Raven of Revenge to crap on all monotheists in the audience. The Raven will engrave upon their knuckle heads the nitrogen-rich Sign of the Apostate.
The Raven will spare the atheists because their heads are unfriendly to birdcrap.
Posted by: MrFire
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October 23, 2009 9:57 AM
Dear Tolerance,
How nice of you to come down from the plane of abstract nouns to blog amongst us, and prove that your hastily-arranged marriage to that other abstract, Hypocrisy, is starting to take its toll on you, what with your categorically intolerant overreaction to a goofy gopher.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 23, 2009 10:03 AM
Dear Tolerance....Won't you come out to play
Tolerance and respect are not the same thing, Tolerance.
Posted by: Beardedone
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October 23, 2009 10:19 AM
Universal Constants Batman! I mean come on! It's just a game!
OK. I agree that the poor kid needed to comfort and calm himself before the game, doing it the only way he knew. Unfortunately, it was done a little too overtly and I too would feel strongly tempted to mock such a display.
Maybe he was really appealing to the laws of motion. By making the orthogonal sign on his chest he was saying "Throw the ball here."
"May the laws of motion be wih you."
Cheers,
Gordon
Posted by: Person | October 23, 2009 10:25 AM
Oh please! Anyone who thinks kneeling down and praying will help win a game DESERVES to get pointed at and laughed at. How stupid do you have to be? These christians are hilarious!
Posted by: Divalent
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October 23, 2009 10:36 AM
PZ, I think you have gone over the line here in criticizing the player in this instance. He was doing a private (as best one can on a football field) pre-game ritual in the most remote corner of the field (as far as he could go and remain legally on the field of play). It would be a different matter if it was done mid-field, and with an attempt to engage the spectators or call attention to himself, but from what I can see he clearly did not.
In his own way, I view it as no different than other, more secular, rituals to motivate and bring ones focus to the game (like giving a "war chant", pumping fists, etc). Maybe all of these are silly, but reserving derision for this type is classless.
The action of the mascot showed poor sportsmanship not because he was mimicking an opposing player who was praying, but because he was mimicking an opposing player engaged in a personal ritual that was not done with any intent to make a spectacle of himself.
Posted by: kopd
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October 23, 2009 10:37 AM
Like the coach said to his team, "I'll be honest with you guys. It's going to be a tough game. God's on their side."
Posted by: phantomreader42 | October 23, 2009 10:38 AM
Steve P, proud worshiper of a lazy, uncaring bastard @ #83:
It's clear from the fact that you apparently think this is something like a convincing argument that you're pretty stupid, Steve. And you're probably incapable of comprehending what's wrong with the idiocy you're spewing. But I'll try to explain, though it's probably in vain.
PZ is a mortal man, supporting himself, his wife, and three children on a college professor's salary. He has a limited amount of time and money. Despite this, he surely does donate some of it to charity, and has called on readers to help out specific people in need. But even if he spent every penny he has and spent every second of the rest of his life working on it, he is simply not capable of feeding every starving person in the world, or converting everyone who abuses women into a pile of fine ash.
Your imaginary god, on the other hand, is supposedly an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, invincible, immortal superbeing, unbound by time or space, possessing limitless resources and powers beyond human imagination. And yet it does NOTHING! If this god of yours really existed, it would be no more difficult for it to provide nutritious, life-sustaining, and delicious food to every living thing in the entire universe than for PZ to toss a single piece of kibble to his cat. Yet your god does nothing at all to help the hungry. NOTHING!
Your god, if it existed, would be able to repair the injuries (including physical, mental, and emotional harm) of every battered woman in the world with a simple wave of his hand, and meanwhile fry their abusers into nothingness with unquenchable divine fire. It could reach back in time and prevent all such abuse from ever happening! And yet these things DO happen, the victims take years to recover, if they ever do, and the perpetrators all too often go unpunished, even left to roam free and cause more suffering. Where the fuck is this magical superbeing you worship? What is it doing with its unlimited supply of time?
PZ can do very little, in the global scheme of things, but there is documented evidence of him at least talking about attempting to do SOMETHING.
Your god can supposedly fix anything it wants in an instant, at no cost whatsoever to itself. Yet there is nothing that suggests it has ever even considered doing so.
Are you still going to pretend everything wrong with the world is PZ's fault? Are you really that much of a brain-dead asshat, Steve?
Posted by: Petzl
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October 23, 2009 10:43 AM
Oh, come on. Yeah, the guy was doing it in public, and it's dopey, but so are a whole lot of things that go on in a football game: ffs, the adulation of the scantily-clad cheerleaders, the homoerotic worship of the players/warriors, the martial territory-acquiring nature of the game, the tribal us vs. them atmosphere in the fans that in sports like soccer lead to actual bloodshed, putting the national anthem on the loudspeaker and expecting us to rise and stop drinking our beer. The whole game is ridiculous. Why pick on some yokel who's taking a knee?
I think we can be generous enough to realize:
A. it was disrespectful.
B. the mascot shouldn'tve done it.
C. let's move on.
Not recognizing the above is what gives atheism a bad name, that stridency that they try to pin on us. There are other, more productive nits to pick.
Posted by: nitramnaed | October 23, 2009 10:45 AM
What....No press release from the Catholic League?
Posted by: kopd
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October 23, 2009 10:46 AM
Shenanigans! You cannot have a "private" or "personal" moment in front of thousands of people. It doesn't work that way. People get arrested for that sort of thing all the time. If it takes a bit of ridicule for him to learn to take his private time to the locker room, then so be it.
And as I alluded to earlier, anybody who thinks praying on a field in front of spectators is okay is ignorant of his own religion, or a hypocrite. So many Christians want us to read and obey their Bible when they don't do it themselves. I don't see anything wrong with pointing their errors out to them.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 23, 2009 10:47 AM
You're right. Mascots never mock opposing players.
Posted by: AJ Milne
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October 23, 2009 10:51 AM
Y'know... I could protest that I paid for this coffee...
... but really, given the context, I guess it's my own stupid fault...
(/Note to whining religionists present: learn from this attitude.)
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | October 23, 2009 11:01 AM
…or later…
Excuse me. You're being embarrassing, both of you. When someone kneels down in public, they are making a show of their piety.
The way it was taught to us in Catholic religious instruction, the take-home message of the story of Elijah, the Baal priests, and the first scientific experiment in literature (First Book of Kings 18:19–40… no, actually, we left 18:40 off) was that God is not deaf or blind – you don't need to pull off a show to be noticed. Well, you do need to pull off a show to be noticed by Puny Humans™, and Hayes evidently knows that.
We were also taught about the aforementioned Gospel of Matthew 6:1–8…
…when in fact it's an ancient Roman saying: Fortuna audaces adiuvat – Good Luck, personified as a goddess, helps the brave ones.
Wasn't Franklin one of those deist types? Or am I confusing Founding Fathers?
==============================
Anyway: Poll:
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 23, 2009 11:07 AM
I'll never understand why praying on the field is any better than praying in the locker-room. Or at your house before you come to the stadium.
But then again, I don't understand the purpose of praying.
Posted by: daijiyobu | October 23, 2009 11:08 AM
Speaking of disgraceful acts at the University of Minnesota...
PZ, what's your opinion of UM's support for the sCAM called naturopathic medicine (see http://www.takingcharge.csh.umn.edu/explore-healing-practices/naturopathy ) where, disgracefully, we're told:
"naturopathic medicine is a science-based tradition [...whose principles are] 'continually re-examined in the light of scientific advances' [...and we] cooperate with all other branches of medical science."
Yet the actually naturopathic [vitalism, supernaturalism & kind] is hugely science-ejected, AND UM and AANP etc. label homeopathy "science".
This web-page based absurdity is apparently authored by ND Ratte (see http://www.takingcharge.csh.umn.edu/our-experts/paul-ratte-nd ).
-r.c.
Posted by: AJ Milne
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October 23, 2009 11:14 AM
... further to my 'rent a costume' notion above, and those complaining someone in a giant plush gopher costume mocking a public prayer isn't the way to get a message across... well, actually...
... actually, I'm starting to think: it's pretty much perfect.
I mean, serious debate, serious discussion is wasted on at least some of the wanks who believe this shit anyway. And honestly, it almost seems absurd in its own little way. You're trying to have a serious, adult discussion with a guy who says he thinks his magical invisible friend is gonna tweak the scoreboard for him if he looks up and asks just right?
I mean, wait... what? Do you walk up to a guy who's 40, been to school, and still insists he believes the moon is made of green cheese and try to explain to him the niceties of the collapse of the protostellar gas cloud forming the early solar system, the outward pressure of the solar wind sorting the remaining material by density?
As if. I mean sure, you can try... but he's probably already heard that shit anyway. And apparently, he's not interested. And he's not thinking on the level of iron and nickel and silicon versus hydrogen and helium anyway... He probably just likes cheese, fuck, and happens to be a stupid, stubborn dick.
So a rudely gesticulating plush gopher, that may just be about the level of comment that's appropriate to the situation, seems to me...
Hell... mebbe we should recruit some furries... send 'em out to stroll innocently along the sidewalks past churches arm-in-arm on Sunday morning... Just a little way of making a statement, is all...
(/And if you haven't got the costume, I guess there's always your middle finger.)
Posted by: PZ Myers
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October 23, 2009 11:14 AM
Don't get me started. I despise the quacks infesting the UM's medical and nursing schools.
The Center for Spirituality and Healing recently invited Deepak Chopra to speak on campus. I'd go, except I know I'd be unable to resist rising up in the middle of his talk and shouting "YOU'RE FULL OF SHIT!".
Posted by: MrFire
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October 23, 2009 11:17 AM
Some comments:
1. Those rituals are also subject to levels of disruption, mocking, shouting down, etc., that are typically far more intense than what occurred here. There's usually half a stadium's worth of fans showing the other team's ritual no respect. And that's fine.
2. Silly as they do indeed look, 'hoo-rahs' and the like do have the material effect of getting the blood and adrenaline pumping. What does praying (i.e. asking a non-existent entity for a material benefit) get you? A placebo effect at best.
Posted by: Brownian, OM
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October 23, 2009 11:17 AM
Ah, lemme get this straight: God doesn't care about those kids or women; it's PZ he's really interested in, and he's happy to wait and sacrifice millions of others (many of whom will lose their faith due to God's negligence) all over the world until PZ directs him where to go.
Sounds about right for the God in question. Maybe if those Belfast women put some effort into it and grew penises, they'd earn a little consideration from the Almighty.
One question though, Stevie: We're always being told how compassionate Christians are, what with their charitable and missionary work. Why doesn't God consider their efforts sufficient impetus to step in, as you suggest?
I haven't in months (shame on me!), but I've bled out 93 units so far, mostly plasma and platelets.
Since, according to Steve P., God has some sort of donation-matching scheme going on, how many orphans does that earn heavenly sympathy for?
Or, going in another direction, if I stop doing anything for anybody else, who's God going to punish on my behalf (since we know he loves to punish people for others' sins)? I mean, fucking over women and children all over the world is cool, I guess, but is there some way I can get him to target somebody specifically for my inaction? I don't like to hold grudges, but there are at least a couple of people I know who I'd like to see God give leprosy to, and if all it takes for him to stop caring is me to stop caring, then I think he and I are a figurative marriage made in heaven.
Posted by: Carlie | October 23, 2009 11:25 AM
I'll never understand why praying on the field is any better than praying in the locker-room. Or at your house before you come to the stadium.
Or, you know, go ahead and pray on the field, just don't make a show of it. I don't remember anywhere in the Bible that says "And when you pray, take off your helmet, get down upon one knee and put one hand on your forehead."
Posted by: littlejohn | October 23, 2009 11:36 AM
In the pros, at least, the refs throw flags and assess 15-yard penalties for "excessive celebration" and "taunting." Maybe they should do the same thing for on-field displays of piety. Surely a player who raised a middle finger skyward after a botched play would be penalized.
Posted by: raven | October 23, 2009 11:47 AM
What happens if the player is a member of Voo Doo, Santeria, or some other religion that practices animal sacrifice?
Do they have to bring their own rabbit or whatever onto the field with a knife and kill it with the appropiate ceremony? The US constitution guarantees freedom of religion so they have as much right as any xian to do something.
If UM are the gophers, presumably the other team can sacrifice a ....real gopher. They are considered garden and agricultural pests anyway.
Posted by: R. Schauer
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October 23, 2009 11:51 AM
I'm patiently awaiting Smoggy's (insightful) comment on this situation. Smoggy, where-ist art thou, Bro? This football player/mascot situation (almost) demands your immediate attention! It is on YouTube...for crissake.
Posted by: Goldy Fails | October 23, 2009 11:51 AM
Goldy should have prayed for some points. Keep sucking Minnesota. You all do it so well.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM
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October 23, 2009 11:51 AM
Do they have to bring their own rabbit or whatever onto the field with a knife and kill it with the appropiate ceremony?
If you're from the University of South Dakota, the appropriate ceremony is to bring an already dead one and chuck it at South Dakota State University cheerleaders.
Posted by: MrFire
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October 23, 2009 11:52 AM
Hi AJ Milne:
The challenge is, which ones are going to end up being which? I used to believe that kind of superstitious crap too. I'm sure there was fear/OCD component behind it, rather than 'true' heart-n-soul belief (whatever that means), so maybe I was always on the road to godlessness. But my point is, I may well have written myself off if I had met me then.
Added to which, I have no real idea how exactly I got from there to here.
Posted by: R. Schauer
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October 23, 2009 11:55 AM
PZ @127
Unfortunately, Bruininks is not our friend.
Posted by: AJ Milne
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October 23, 2009 11:59 AM
Fair 'nough... And sure, probably I'm just too amused by the whole thing to take this properly seriously...
But still, let me ask you this:
Do you think furries strolling past outside of your church might have helped you along?
(/How 'bout if they were also wearing really nice Sunday hats?)
Posted by: Derek | October 23, 2009 12:45 PM
Yes, I'm an atheist. But how do we know he wasn't praying to a safe game, no injuries, etc? Not that I think it matters, but I'm pretty sure that's a reasonable thing to pray for if you're gonna do it.
Posted by: Eidolon | October 23, 2009 12:55 PM
littlejohn@131:
Thanks for the image. How come we don't see more displays of the dexterous digit to gawd when he/she/it doesn't come through? I mean, it's always finger pointed skyward for success so why not a bird for the Guy in the Sky when the occasion merits?
Of couse, if the Sky Guy wants to shut up all the fuckin' atheists once and for all and get loads of converts, one clear and convincing thunderbolt to Goldie would have worked wonders.
Posted by: MrFire
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October 23, 2009 1:04 PM
Heh heh, quite possibly. I know I wouldn't have been able to resist collapsing in 'WTF?' laughter. Though whether I would have then rolled with it, or doubled down on the Hail Marys - who knows. I should have added earlier that you have a capital idea, and at the very least will go down in history as out-Pythoning Monty Python.
Sunday hats - maybe. Personally I would go for an anatomically impossibly buxom nun costume (y'know, put the anti-sacrilege training up against the sex instinct and the former doesn't stand a fucking chance).
Posted by: jbeck.myopenid.com
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October 23, 2009 1:43 PM
That's uncalled for Paul. The Penn State athlete's prayer does nothing to you, he doesn't deserve to be mocked in public. If you don't believe it, leave it at that. Very unbecoming of you.
Posted by: DobyGS | October 23, 2009 1:44 PM
This public display by this single football player was nothing. At the end of most college football games, about half the players from both teams will pray at midfield. The issue of where the single player chose to pray at the beginning of the game is trivial compared to the end of game mass prayer.
Posted by: JJR | October 23, 2009 1:46 PM
If the Mascot had pretended to receive invisible fellatio from the kneeling player, THEN maybe an apology would be in order, but...(it would still be funny).
The only thing that really overtly hints at mockery in this footage, really, is the high five the mascot receives at the end.
Doesn't the bible say something about "when two or more of you are gathered in my name, I am with you." or some such?
For all we know the Mascot herself is Christian who disapproves of ostentatious displays of exaggerated piety...
It could happen.
Posted by: Die Anyway
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October 23, 2009 1:47 PM
I watched that video pretty closely and (with the Rev. @#92) I don't see any mocking. If Goldy had pointed his finger at his own head and drawn circles as if to say "this guy is crazy" that would have been mocking. If Goldy had danced circles around the player, that would have been mocking. If he had waggled his butt in the players face... mocking. Joining him in prayer doesn't seem like mocking. Since the player walked right up to Goldy before kneeling in prayer, there is hardly anything that Goldy could have done that wouldn't have seemed like mocking. I say Goldy handled it quite adroitly and no apology was necessary.
Eat well, stay fit, Die Anyway
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 23, 2009 1:50 PM
How about this. Fuck his stupid public display of idiocy.
If he choses to make a public event out of it then he's opening it up to reactions.
If that makes your wet blanket drip even faster, then so be it.
Posted by: Rorschach | October 23, 2009 1:56 PM
I love it when some people call PZ "Paul" when they want to make it clear that whatever topic is discussed is now really serious not a laughing matter and not at all funny and now you've really done it !
Like my mother used to call me my full name when I hadnt cleaned up my room.
:-)
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 23, 2009 2:00 PM
PAUL ZACHARY MYERS!!
YOU GET DOWN HERE RIGHT NOW AND APOLOGIZE TO THAT NICE YOUNG MAN!!
Posted by: jbeck.myopenid.com
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October 23, 2009 3:38 PM
Rev.BDC, there's absolutely nothing the PSU athlete has done to merit an FU from you. He hasn't demanded that you share his piety or kneel with him. In fact he is doing it on his own unlike in sectarian school teams where the mass prayer is a part of the deal - of course non-believers excepted. It is one thing to say at every turn that you don't believe in piety and will not have anything to do with a public prayer. The abuse is justified only if someone is in you face. It is even OK to go up to a preacher and question him - politely. I do that all the time, as I once did when I asked a preacher on the Wayne State U campus why he was leaving the obviously Muslim students alone while he was handing those tracts out to all the rest. Survival instincts? But what is uncalled for is mockery. Making fun of the harmless is crude, vulgar, and insensitive. Stay clear, even "witness" to parishioners as they file in or file out, all that is game. Mockery isn't. And if it means so much to you,
PZ, Very unbecoming of you.
Posted by: Rorschach | October 23, 2009 3:49 PM
@ 149,
In a filled football stadium ?
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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October 23, 2009 3:51 PM
Your criticism of PZ is very unbecoming of you. Religion and prayer deserve no special treatment, which is what you are going for. In fact, public displays of both derserve to be ridiculed, since Jesus requires both only in the home or temple (Matthew 6:1-8). Ostentacious public prayer, which this was, is anti-Jesus, and you not condemning it as such means you are condoning unXian behavior. So maybe you need to take your 'tude and shove it up where the sun don't shine.Posted by: Jebus is my Dog | October 23, 2009 3:51 PM
jbeck@149 "...Making fun of the harmless is crude, vulgar, and insensitive...."
Harmless?? Far as I can tell Christianity has been one of the most harmful things to ever happen to humanity. Except belly button lint. That stuff is just plain evil.
Posted by: PZ Myers
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October 23, 2009 3:55 PM
You don't know me very well. I think public mockery of piety is not only acceptable, but needed.
Posted by: Alyson Miers
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October 23, 2009 4:28 PM
Anyone who calls PZ "Paul" on this blog is a concern troll at best.
And if you draw attention to your piety in a place where piety is not the issue and you are one of the people the audience is watching, your piety could very well be mocked. If you draw attention to yourself, the attention won't always be nice.
Posted by: Sean Peters | October 23, 2009 4:38 PM
I think the fact that the U of M has a gopher for its mascot is far more troubling than whatever said gopher may have done to mock the other player...
Posted by: AJ Milne
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October 23, 2009 5:24 PM
AJ's 38th rule on avoiding looking like a yutz: if a giant plush gopher figures it's got a shot at making fun of you, whatever it is you're doing, stop doing that.
Oh, and also, re:
DON'T MAKE ME COME UP THERE!
(/Also: trollboy: y'know, yer face is gonna freeze like that.)
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 23, 2009 5:34 PM
I didn't say fuck you to him, I said fuck his public display of idiocy.
Get you facts straight.
oh and, Fuck his public display of idiocy.
Posted by: jbeck.myopenid.com
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October 23, 2009 5:34 PM
PZ, you are right, I don't know you well enough.
Folks, that guy praying in private isn't a crook, he bears no responsibility for the crimes of Martin Luther or John Calvin. For every Rick Warren there is a Joseph Lowery.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 23, 2009 5:37 PM
In private?
First, he's welcome to pray in public all he wants. And I'm totally within my rights to be critical of his actions.
You seem to have a hard time understanding that.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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October 23, 2009 5:39 PM
He isn't praying in private. He is praying in front of whatever the stadium holds. And he has no need to bow on his knees to pray. After all god is supposed to be omnipresent, and will hear him no matter what his position. What part of that are you having trouble with?Posted by: kopd
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October 23, 2009 5:49 PM
The Jesus character said in Matthew 6 that those who pray in public get what they deserve and those who pray in private get the god character's ear. Therefore praying on the field is counterproductive and open to criticism according to Jesus. QED. Unless this guy isn't a Christian. We'd still be free to mock him, but we wouldn't have the joy of being able to use the Bible to justify it.
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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October 23, 2009 5:57 PM
jbeck @ 149;
"Making fun of the harmless is crude, vulgar, and insensitive."
Ostentatious prayer in public is less about 'true faith' and more about a holier-than-thou piety whereby the believer demonstartes his superiority of religiosity. No one is saying that he should not be allowed to make his ridiculous abeisance to his fictional god, merely that we atheists will not sit back respectfully and quietly when he does so.
If he wants to shove his religion in our faces (a religion, incidentally, that history and current events have conclusively demonstrated is anything but "harmless"), then I think it reasonable if we demonstrate our disdain for it in equally open terms.
I see no reason why Christianity should automatically receive special treatment. How many Christians would respectfully stand by while someone performed ceremonies to propitiate Jupiter, Zeus or Mithras on the playing field? Even prayers to major contemporary non-Christian deities like Allah or Brahman would be unlikely to go by without comment in a majority Christian culture, and would probably get a hostile reception from Christians that would go far beyond ridicule. The double standard lies with the theists, not with us.
Posted by: aratina cage
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October 23, 2009 5:57 PM
Whahahahahaha!Did you watch the fucking U.S. Presidential Inauguration this year where Lowery mocked GOP racists? Did you listen to Lowery mock W to his face at Coretta Scott King's funeral? Lowery, if he were not a Christian, would have gladly worn the gopher suit.
And actually, I wonder if the gopher and Hayes did not have a little prayer duel between the two of them. Perhaps the gopher tried to out-plead Hayes for God's blessing (and lost — teehee).
And fuck public displays of faith. Keep that shit private.
Posted by: raven | October 23, 2009 7:07 PM
Bullcrap, An ostentatious public display of religious fanaticism is in your face to a huge number of people, many of whom are ....xians. BTW, there is absolutely no prescribed way to pray. You can do it standing up with your eyes open any old place.
Contrariwise, there is absolutely nothing the gopher did that harmed anyone either. A lot of people would think it is clever and very funny. Many of those are probably other xians. Xian kooks have no right when they act out in public not to expect people to laugh at them.
Unfortunately, you aren't smart enough to be funny. Just boring in a routine fundie xian death cult sort of way.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM
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October 23, 2009 7:10 PM
But what is uncalled for is mockery.
Why?
Posted by: woozy | October 23, 2009 7:55 PM
Bullcrap, An ostentatious public display of religious fanaticism is in your face to a huge number of people, many of whom are ....xians.
Yes, but can you honestly say you think public displays in your face to a huge number of people is condemnable? After all, it's a very common argument here that that although people do have the right to their beliefs they do not have a right to protection of having their beliefs countered. It seems no one has the right to be protected from displays of religion either.
That said, I think the prayer was inappropriate. But not surprising, shocking, are disgraceful. I'm not going to comment on the gopher's mockery. (Well, it likewise is neither surprising, shocking, nor disgraceful. As the mascots job is to mock and imitate and annoy the other time and to do so improvisationally, one can't really blame the poor fellow.)
It's not appropriate to pray on university property during a football game, not because the folks watching have a right not to be exposed to an ostentatious display, but because it implies a public endorsement of the beliefs which is counter to the tenet of freedom of religion. I realize that's a little specious but that's why I say it's "inappropriate" and not shocking or disgraceful. It's no more specious then claiming a mascot aping it is crossing a line. (Okay, I admit that I don't think that was appropriate either because mocking one for one's religion is "not cool" in the environment of a football game, but, heck, I think we can safely and fairly say "They started it").
In a slightly more rational world, I think those objecting to the prayer would have every right to complain and to expect a tepid letter of apology in return. ("We're sorry. The Penn State did not mean to endorse are favor any religion or to expose anyone to religious displays one may find objectionable ... blah ... blah ...")
Actually I think the tepid letter was an appropriate response. (--Although it'd be fair to say such things as "rather than a mockery of anyone's belief it was meant as an imitation of the rather unusual actions of individual player as he enacted what could appear to be a prayer on public university property during a univeristy sponsered event. Rest assured, whatever the intent of the player's action, Goldy's imitation was meant solely as a simple 'mirroring' and not as mockery of the player's beliefs, if indeed it is the case that the player's odd behavior in front of the audience were an expression of his beliefs."--) But only one tepid letter. Any more complaints should be answered with "We already apologized. What more can you reasonably want?"
Posted by: woozy | October 23, 2009 8:06 PM
Contrariwise, there is absolutely nothing the gopher did that harmed anyone either. A lot of people would think it is clever and very funny.
Hmm, you must have seen a different video than I did. All I so a mirrored move by move imitation. I'm a bit perplexed to see cleverness or humor in it.
Then again, it's hard to see any harm (at least harm that stands up to scrutiny) either.
Xian kooks have no right when they act out in public not to expect people to laugh at them.
That's true.
Posted by: bunkle | October 23, 2009 8:22 PM
For all we know the Mascot herself is Christian who disapproves of ostentatious displays of exaggerated piety...
It could happen.
Or a christian who felt on seeing another christian praying alone felt compelled to join in.
I have to admit from the view I got I wasn't at all sure what the gopher or the football player was trying to do. And I do like the comment, when a football player comes up and starts praying right in front of you, what's a poor mascot to do.
It's a good thing I wasn't the mascot because my first thought would be to do perform a mock benediction as though I were the gopher bishop. And I'd be doing it to be kind! A guy's praying in front of me and I'm a mascot so what do I do...
Maybe the best thing, and it'd be pretty funny too, would be to jump back a little startled and then tip-toe backwards slowly as one does when confronted with uncomfortable displays.
Posted by: Geoffrey
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October 23, 2009 11:59 PM
Just to throw a spanner in the works...
Isn't the player a selected representative of a state university?
Isn't he promoting one religion over others? :)
Posted by: Geoffrey
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October 24, 2009 12:29 AM
Just to throw a spanner in the works...
Isn't the player a selected representative of a state university?
Isn't he promoting one religion over others? :)
Posted by: woozy | October 24, 2009 1:18 AM
Just to throw a spanner in the works... Isn't the player a selected representative of a state university? Isn't he promoting one religion over others? :)
I think that is a legitimate and fair argument. If one wishes to make it.
Has anyone interviewed Goldy herself about this? (That's a rhetorical question, of course. I know these things go into spin immediately and we'll never know what her intent is.) The more I think about this the more I get confused just about what her intentions was. I mean, he kneels and prays, and she kneels. Even if it is a mockery ... I kinda don't get it. A gopher praying? What's that supposed to mean? And the contact Goldy was trying to make which Haynes avoided... If that was part of the mockery, what was the intention? To punch the guy out.
The way I see it, the explanation that makes the most sense is it's a start of the game and a player ran out to the opposing team's cheerleaders and kneeled in pray. Goldy probably figured this was a "meet-the-opponent" pre-game stint so she kneeled too and went over to shake hands and do the "good game" "you too" ritual.
I mean maybe she was trying to mock him figuring he's praying so I will too, but I don't really get that.
And, this might be stretching it but it is possible: Goldy saw a football player come over and kneel and with her limited eyesight in the eye-holes didn't see the genuflection and that he was posing for a ... oh, damn. I don't watch sports. What do you call it when the players kneel for the start of a play ... and Goldy thought it was mock football play and she went along with it. I mean that's what I thought both of them were doing at first.
I suppose this incident is more revealing in how people react than in what the actual intent was. But, still, I'm curious as to what really happened.
Posted by: strange gods before me, OM
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October 24, 2009 1:42 AM
This needs to go into the infidelquotes.php file.
Posted by: woozy | October 24, 2009 1:43 AM
Okay, I just watched the tape for the umpteenth time.
Penn State is running out and Goldy's walking along with her nose plugged (i.e. "Penn stinks"). She reaches one corner while a player of the team runs up and kneels. Goldy looks at him and nods at him. Goldy turns to cheer or listen to the audience. While Goldy's back is turned Hayne genuflects and Goldy can't have seen it. She turns back and Haynes is kneeling with as head in his hand. Goldy kneels. Haynes geneflects and stands. Goldy gets up and tries to shake hands but Haynes runs off. The woman comes and fist bumps Goldy. Goldy puts a finger to her (Goldy's) mouth shyly and walks off with her hands crossed.
I dunno. Maybe someone in the audience "Hey, make fun of his praying" and Goldy thought it would be funny. Maybe Goldy thought her job when a player came into "her space" was to interact with him and thought she go through the motions or, heck, she might have been sincerely praying herself, and it didn't occur to her people would assume that because she's a gopher folks would be offended. (If a cheerleader or a player from the other team had done this, would the reaction be the same.) Or maybe she didn't know he was praying.
Could be anything. I think the "plainly a mistake" "sorry you were offended, you thin-skinned freak" and "We don't really want to trivialize religion publically" letter seems apropriate. It's a tempest in a teapot over nobody knows what.
Posted by: strange gods before me, OM
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October 24, 2009 2:07 AM
Well of course it's offensive when a gopher prays.
Posted by: scooter | October 24, 2009 9:04 AM
Besides PZ and that goddam mocking demonGopher, another infamous Blasphemer also attended U Minn at Morris. Willem Defoe.
Willem Defoe portrayed Bozo in the controversial Film, The Last Temptation of Bozo, which pissed off legions of Bozons.
Posted by: Sili
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October 26, 2009 3:43 AM
Since you lost, you obviously did something wrong.
I say, try crucifying the gopher before the next game. Seems to be comme il faut for that sorta thing.