…and this is a 
Elizabeth Clare Prophet, who some of us will recall from the 1980s, when her survivalist, apocalyptic cult, the Church Universal and Triumphant, was digging in in Montana, has died. Another end-of-the-world weirdo bites the dust before the world does.
There was one odd comment in her obituary.
Elizabeth Prophet, who died on October 15, is survived by three daughters and two sons, one of whom is spiritual leader of the Church Universal and Triumphant. For some years she had been suffering from dementia.
"Some years"? Like, about 40?
Comments
Posted by: Ted Dahlberg
|
October 24, 2009 2:42 PM
She's an Ancient? Well, if someone as evil as Anubis could ascend, why not her..? I bet she was a Goa'uld too.
Right, that's about enough Stargate references from me. My work here is done.
Posted by: Pensnest | October 24, 2009 2:44 PM
Tasteless. Dementia is not the same as delusion, and you should hold yourself to higher standards than this.
Posted by: The Pint
|
October 24, 2009 2:46 PM
@ #1
It's a dirty, nerdy job making SG-1 references (and Prophet's passing was definitely screaming for one), but someone's gotta do it.
Thankfully, you beat me to it!
Posted by: Janine, Vile Bitch, OM | October 24, 2009 2:47 PM
For some years she had been suffering from dementia.
The human brain was not made to handle all of those messages from beyond.
Posted by: Sanction, Inherent Antonym
|
October 24, 2009 2:50 PM
This seems familiar.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
October 24, 2009 2:51 PM
Oh goodie, another insipid concern troll. Dime a dozen, and not even worth that.
Posted by: Akheloios | October 24, 2009 2:54 PM
Oooo... cheap shot.
Whatever she was before she succumbed to dementia, she and her family suffered as she lost whatever dignity she once had.
Make fun of her views, her crackpot theories, and especially her impact on the gullible and credulous but not a heartbreaking disease that strikes believer and sceptic alike, tearing their lives and the lives of their family apart.
Posted by: kent | October 24, 2009 2:54 PM
The other son has an interesting website http://www.blacksunjournal.com/
Posted by: MaleficVTwin
|
October 24, 2009 3:03 PM
What's with all the bleeding hearts? I would consider anyone that holds views like hers to be demented, as well.
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | October 24, 2009 3:06 PM
Oh, so that's where the name of the Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic comes from!
Posted by: God Retardent | October 24, 2009 3:08 PM
I have the perfect music for her funeral.http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/180570/detail/
Posted by: nosmo king | October 24, 2009 3:11 PM
I have always felt that the leaders of these cults and indeed all religions (cults as well) know exactly what they are doing and are probably agnostic or atheist.
It seems inconceivable they could devote their lives to magical thinking and not realize that it is all just superstitious nonsense. They have to keep up the illusion to keep their paychecks.
Posted by: Akheloios | October 24, 2009 3:15 PM
The bleeding hearts, at least mine, come from a family with a history of Dementia. I don't see how the cause of her death, especially one as difficult as dementia can be seen as fair game.
Dementia is the one thing even sceptics can't get around. A death of someone who refused anti-virals for HIV, stupid death. The death of someone from cancer who refused chemo or radiation therapy, stupid death.
No cure for dementia, only a long, embarassing, tortuous death. Go take the piss out of Terry Pratchett if you're happy throwing barbs at people with a degenerative brain disease. I won't even though he's on record subscribing to woo. It's a bad, bad death and who you were before has nothing to do with it.
Posted by: Siamang | October 24, 2009 3:16 PM
Those of us who are friends with Sean Prophet and appreciate his place in the online skeptical community know that notwithstanding her insane church and the lives ruined by it, he still loved his mother.
Good thoughts out to Sean and his family.
Read his blog, folks. He deconverted as the son of the head of one of the weirdest apocolyptic churches in existence.
His deconversion stories are mind-blowing. Read the one about how listening to the band "Rush" saved his life:
http://www.blacksunjournal.com/music/263_rush-saved-me-and-my-kids_2006.html
Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger
|
October 24, 2009 3:33 PM
What else did you expect from someone who named their church the "C. U. n' T."?
Posted by: Col | October 24, 2009 3:34 PM
"I saw what war had done and could do to a nation," she recalled. "We walked up and down the streets, and I recorded it in my mind as though I had a video camera. I shall never forget it as long as I live."
I don't quite think so.
She would have my sympathy if she had not caused so much damage to so many other peoples lives.
Posted by: Greg Laden
|
October 24, 2009 3:37 PM
Interesting. My sister, a journalist in the region, was one of the only outsiders to ever visit her compound and conduct interviews there. I wonder if she saw her wooshing buy during the ascension.
Posted by: RamziD | October 24, 2009 3:48 PM
Akhelios,
2 things this thread are not:
1) A discussion on dementia and how it affects those inflicted and their loved ones
2) A shot at your family
So, calm down... PZ's just making a funny.
Posted by: Eidolon | October 24, 2009 3:53 PM
Pointing out that once again, PZ has acted like a dick does not make one a concern troll. Do give a listen to Terry Pratchett on dementia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z44ip5kYQ8w
We return you to your usual programming.
Posted by: neon-elf.myopenid.com
|
October 24, 2009 3:53 PM
My late mother had dementia for her last years and I still found PZ's comment amusing, mainly because it was exactly what I would have said.
Posted by: bc23.5
|
October 24, 2009 3:59 PM
Akheloios, you are missing the point. A wake is a celebration of life, not death. The posters on this thread are not so much making fun of the way she died, but the way she lived. There is a difference.
Posted by: Akheloios | October 24, 2009 4:08 PM
I love PZ to bits, and am subscribed via google to his every word.
However, it's rightly pointing out when someone is mistaken and have made an ass of themselves that separates the rationalists from the woo mongers like Ms. Prophet.
Suffering from Dementia had nothing to do with this woman's irrationality, and many rational people have, do and will suffer from dementia and lose themselves is the final insult. PZ shot his arrow o'er the house, and hurt his brother.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
October 24, 2009 4:15 PM
No, the only dick here is Eidolon. But he knew that already.
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | October 24, 2009 4:21 PM
... She is survived by her children, and the planet Earth.
Posted by: Knockgoats
|
October 24, 2009 4:31 PM
Akhelios,
2 things this thread are not:
1) A discussion on dementia and how it affects those inflicted and their loved ones - RamziD
Well, it kind of is, because PZ made it so. I'm conflicted on this, on the one side because of family history I won't go into, on the other because I know that when I heard Reagan had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's (and that he "came out" over it was the only thing I ever admired him for), my immediate thought, which I repeated to others, was "How could they tell?". Whatever, Akheloios's has every right to voice his(?) opinion, and is no concern troll.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM
|
October 24, 2009 4:35 PM
I know that when I heard Reagan had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's (and that he "came out" over it was the only thing I ever admired him for), my immediate thought, which I repeated to others, was "How could they tell?".
And my response was, "too bad he's not coherent enough to suffer while those around him have to go through all of the hell."
Posted by: Eidolon | October 24, 2009 4:45 PM
Nerd:
Good of you to rush to the defense of PZ with that withering attack. PZ has a loyal following and you apparently number yourself among them. Good on you. I'm certain that the "OM" behind your handle along with about $4.00 will get you a large coffee at most Starbucks.
To the case at hand, PZ shoots from the hip and misses from time to time. I have found that how funny something is is in inverse relationship to your personal experience with it. As was pointed out early on, dementia and delusion are not one in the same and quite honestly, the person she was was long gone by the time of her death. I would laugh along if she had died as a result of following her beliefs but that is not the case.
Have a day.
Posted by: RamziD | October 24, 2009 5:02 PM
I'm dumbfounded how people can equate this joke with an attack on people with Alzheimer's. Lighten up.
Posted by: ironysandwich
|
October 24, 2009 5:22 PM
Eidolon, as others have pointed out, you're far from the only one who has had a family history of demensia. I would be another one. And I find PZ's comment funny, because as was pointed out (and as should never have had to have been pointed out due to the complete obviousness of it) PZ's comment was about one person whose beliefs would be rightly classified as demented, not about your family or anyone elses.
Now please remove that stick, stop trying to take insult where none was intended and, while your at it, restrict yourself to a single account name.
Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy
|
October 24, 2009 5:24 PM
For me, PZ's comments tie into the running thread around here that religion can often be a cover for mental illness. When delusions are couched in religious language, it can result in the delusional (or demented, or whatever) individual being sheltered by his/her religious peers from actual treatment of the mental illness and encouraged. In some cases, the person can even become a spiritual leader.
Posted by: wandered in | October 24, 2009 5:24 PM
@13
Wait, what woo has Pratchett backed?
He always struck me as a firm, somewhat cranky skeptic (see: Nation). His essay on NOT finding god as a result of his Alzheimers was amazing. To quote:
There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1028222/I-create-gods-time--I-think-exist.html#ixzz0UtHxqMOr
Obviously, the title is "i create gods all the time -- now I may have found one" because it's more of a feel-good for those believers out there.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
October 24, 2009 5:34 PM
True.I don't disagree, but this time he isn't wrong. Religious delusion can be a cover for dementia. And he isn't denying dementia is bad, but rather sometimes it is hard to tell the dementia and delusion apart. It's not like I haven't had a case of dementia in my family either. But I have perspective, unlike other people like yourself.Posted by: Akheloios | October 24, 2009 5:40 PM
@ 31
Pratchett subscibes to woo because it's all he has and I don't criticise him for it btw. He takes supplements, vitamins, minerals, and whatnot (not proven to be effective) and he's currently using an infra red device (http://fightingmonsters.wordpress.com/2009/01/29/pratchett-bbc-and-infra-red-helmets/) that straps on to his head to do something or other to help something or other, as woo goes, that will delay the onset of his disease somehow.
Now, with cancer you can point at the woo and say it's unproven and therefore crappy because we have chemo and radiotherapy. You can point to vitamin C and garlic and whatnot for HIV and say it's woo because we have anti-retrovirals.
No cure for dementia, no delaying mechanisms, nothing.
It's all woo so far, woo pure and simple, and it's sad that woo is all there is. Maybe one drug that can be given, off prescription that may or may not help.
That's why dementia isn't something to be amused by. There's nothing you can do, nothing you can try, nothing you can hope for.
Dementia didn't cause this woman's belief in the crazy or impossible, but dementia killed her, as it does to everyone who develops it whether they're new age woo-meisters, devout Christians, or the most ardent atheist and sceptic.
It's just not fair to ascribe her ridiculous beliefs as being caused by her dementia as it insults all those who struggle bitterly to keep their rationality to the very end through their dementia.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
|
October 24, 2009 5:47 PM
From the Torygraph article PZ linked:
Again we have a cult eagerly preparing for "the final days" which never appear. The track record of those predicting Armageddon, the Rapture, the Second Coming, etc., is not good. I'd think after a while people would get the idea that it ain't happening. But rationality never works on the irrational.
Posted by: John Marley
|
October 24, 2009 5:51 PM
The title reminds me of a line from Invader Zim:
Posted by: HP | October 24, 2009 5:51 PM
I was once invited to a wedding of a couple of divorced Catholics. Because they were both divorced, they couldn't marry in a Catholic church. They wanted to get married in a Unitarian-Universalist church, but apparently all those non-Catholic churches starting with "U" sound alike to them.
When we got to the church, I said to my lady friend, "Um, this is not a Unitarian church." "What's the difference?," she asked. "There are no flying saucers at the Unitarian church."
So anyway, I once attended a wedding at the Church Universal and Triumphant. It was, actually, a fairly typical secular wedding service, and the woman who performed it did a fine job. It was all completely professional and non-sectarian. But the church bulletin board and printed tracts were hilarious. Apparently the Ascended Masters are going to be here any day now.
My sincere condolences to Sean Prophet.
Posted by: PixelFish | October 24, 2009 5:58 PM
I'm usually amused when Armageddon-fearing folks dig down in Montana of all places. They must only have looked at page one of their missile maps and noted that Montana doesn't have any nuclear reactors, while ignoring the fact that A) it has a lot of missile silos at Malmstrom and B) has one of the WORST likely patterns for fallout. (Even funnier--one of the sites showing off Montana's horrible fallout patterns has people who are all excited for being prepared for Armageddon, because they got kayaks! Another site notes that you should wash the tarp covering your boat frequently get the fallout off of it. Reminds me of the line from one of those old 40s/50s film about the atom bomb, wherein the "humble broom" becomes a weapon in the atomic age, as they whisk dust off of each other.)
...
Even though PZed's comment was meant in snark, I honestly do wonder if low-grade dementia can prop up religious delusions and vice versa. Partly because my family is very religious AND has a history of Alzheimer's and severe depression, as I just found out. For example, I wonder if the faint and illogical impulses towards religious thought and framework that I still feel on occasion are not just remnants of my indoctrinated youth, but symptoms of my family illness. Of course, I'm a hypochondriac, so it's not surprising that my thoughts would tend in that direction.
Posted by: Knockgoats
|
October 24, 2009 6:06 PM
PixelFish,
My sympathies and best wishes. Hope your fears are unfounded.
Posted by: celdd
|
October 24, 2009 6:08 PM
On the subject of the Rapture, there is now a service to look after the pets of those who are called up (via PamsHouseBlend.com)
http://eternal-earthbound-pets.com/
Posted by: The Bobs | October 24, 2009 6:09 PM
Surely, this is your idea PZ. link
Posted by: Per-Erik Svensson | October 24, 2009 6:10 PM
Great post! Filled with deep substance and interesting thoughts. Oh wait, you just ranted a bit and made fun of someone that has died.
What's the purpose of this post? A feel of superiority? I would hate to see some religous nut-jub write this way when you, Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennet or, really, anyone dies!
And no, this does not make me an opponent of your thoughts or ideas - just your manners. But, who cares right?
Posted by: wrpd | October 24, 2009 6:11 PM
My young sons and I used to watch her in small doses in the 80s. We loved it but then they got older and wiser while I just got old and I was her sole fan in the family.
I loved her ululations.
Posted by: August Pamplona | October 24, 2009 6:12 PM
I started going to yoga classes years ago. The instructor is a very sweet woman and I love her dearly but let's just say that a great number of new age stereotypes may apply.One time, I was looking through the bookshelf at her yoga studio and I noticed a book by Elizabeth Clare Prophet. I said something like "oh, you've got a book by that cult leader".
She tried to correct me and talked about how it was full of wisdom, etc.. I told her that she really did head this cult with a compound in Montana which was known for accumulating a vast armament and which was not beloved by neighbors due to issues with leaky fuel tanks and such things. I guess I must have sounded very certain because she seemed to accept what I said and might have been a little bit shocked.
In the end, the way she resolved the cognitive dissonance involved (book full of new age stuff that she kind of bought into vs. weird cult with lots of guns) was to remember that she was suffering from dementia and to speculate that the weird cult stuff developments might have happened after the onset of dementia.
I did not argue the point.
Posted by: Pixelfish | October 24, 2009 6:16 PM
Knockgoats: I'm pretty young yet, but it is a bit worrying to think that your mind isn't your own. (Also I do wonder about the spate of "deathbed" confessions people seem to like to hold up to discredit atheists. While some are out and out fabricated, like Lady Wossername with Darwin, others seem to be semi-legit. If those confessions were the result of dementia at life's end, that might make sense.)
Posted by: Per-Erik Svensson | October 24, 2009 6:42 PM
@44
Most people who hold up deathbed confessions to discredit atheists are religious.
People who are religious sometimes have problem with the separation between idea and thinker. They tend to listen to authority, regardless of the idea.
If you cant separate between idea and thinker, it is probable that you think that no one can. Thus, you see no fault in attacking ideas by showing of a great list of people that agrees with you. Of course, no one in their right mind really cares if Darwin, Sagan, Dawkins or any other non-believer began (or will begin) to believe on their deathbed.
That does not change the validity of their ideas!
Posted by: MAJeff, OM
|
October 24, 2009 7:00 PM
I used to work in a research clinic that was involved with clinical trials and dementia/Alzheimer's medication. It can be devastating, so I completely understand Akheloios' reaction. It is a different phenomenon than clinging to stupid ideas in a delusional sense.
It was also while working there that I discovered this article from The Onion:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29738
The laughter in the office was that day was guilty laughter. Dark humor isn't without value, but what dementia does is pretty awful and devastating.
Posted by: Hypatia's Daughter
|
October 24, 2009 7:10 PM
#2 Pensnest
#27 EidolonNo, dementia is not delusion. But delusion is a very real psychiatric illness - just as real as dementia. Watch "A Beautiful Mind" for a superb movie about how delusions, brought on by schizophrenia, IIRC, nearly destroyed the mind of a brilliant mathematician. One of Clinton's advisers suffered from delusions due to his bi-polar disorder. (My mom has bi-polar but never to the point of delusion.)
My point is that you seem to imply that mocking someone who suffers from delusions would be o.k., but not someone who suffers from dementia. If you truly think that, it makes you just as insensitive as PZ.
I truly doubt you are that insensitive, just as PZ isn't. But he, like you, used the terms in the common & careless vernacular without any intent to demean the real victims of these diseases.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
October 24, 2009 7:16 PM
I remember an article from 15 years or so ago looking at dementia in, IIRC, Belgian nuns. The authors had did long term studies looking at mental degradation over the years. They could see signs of mental degradation starting in the late 20's for those who later developed non-stroke related dementia. Given my vague recall of the time frame, the extent of the dementia may only be related to Alzheimers.
Posted by: salon_1928 | October 24, 2009 7:44 PM
I knew a couple through my ex-gf who were members of this cult. I attended their wedding and they, knowing that I was atheist, warned me beforehand about bringing any negative energy into the ceremony. Afterwards at dinner a couple of their friends tried pretty hard to recruit my ex-gf and I - it was pretty pathetic...
The shit you do for significant others...
Posted by: Cath the Canberra Cook | October 24, 2009 8:01 PM
In defense of Pterry, what I have read is that he is trying several unproven treatments, in full awareness that they are unproven and may well be bogus. And this is not a substitute for a properly evidenced alternative. I think it's a little unfair to label that approach as "woo". He's in no way rejecting evidence-based medicine.
Posted by: foxfire | October 24, 2009 8:09 PM
@ Hypatias Daughter
Very well said. I am watching my mom die of dementia and I am seeing the situation kill my dad, as he struggles to try to do something to change the situation. Like you, I do not think PZ was in any way trying to make light of the condition or suggest that Elizabeth Prophet somehow deserved to die this way.
The only thing I could add is: "Dementia describes a group of symptoms and is not the name of a disease or diseases that cause the symptoms"*. Since delirium is often confused with dementia, it is possible Elizabeth Prophet's obituary is the result of such confusion (or a deliberate attempt to avoid the word "delirium"?).
* The 36-Hour Day (4th ed paperback, page 9)
Posted by: Kapitano
|
October 24, 2009 8:20 PM
To all those pedants who think they're being terribly clever in pointing out that Liz Prophet's delusions weren't literal dementia:
* An idiot is someone who scores less than 50 in the Stanford-Binet IQ test. Is this how you use the word?
* A fool is the official entertainer and sometime unofficial advisor to a medieval monarch. Is this how you use the word?
* Strictly speaking there's no such thing as a demented belief - only a person with dementia. But that's not how language works.
Posted by: Mike Wagner
|
October 24, 2009 8:40 PM
It's an interesting moment for people to become politically correct wankers. PZ can make comments on all kinds of topics, but as soon as he takes a stab at something that personally affects you, he's in the wrong.
Well, I had a relative die a horrible death from Alzheimers, and rather than join in with the whiners I prefer to turn to them and say "Suck it up."
Humor is subjective. Mel Brooks put it very plainly when he said, "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall in an open sewer and die."
I worry about early-onset Alzheimers stealing my life, but I certainly don't mind jokes about it making light of the situation, no more than--
What was I talking about again? Who are you people?
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | October 24, 2009 8:48 PM
Prophet's "Church Universal and Triumphant" was the same old dodge. That old con that preys upon fear and uncertainty. In exchange for your shekels and your allegiance you would be blessed by her assurance that not only would you go with her to Heaven for dalliance with the Wholly Threesome forever but in the meantime you would be safe from nuclear war. They did spend a lot to dig deep (150 feet, I think) into the ground to make hidey-holes. Sparing no expense, mind you.
During the 80s I lived near the southern border of Yellowstone (largest known volcanic caldera which is also notoriously active) in Fremont county; sort of a neat metaphor for the difference between her self serving "service to mankind" and my own disinterest in bomb shelters. She and her faithful followers, as well as their ongoing legal fights for property, entitlement and money were normal fodder for news consumers in Wyoming and the greater Rocky Mountain area.
What I remember most about the CUAT has little to do with their humility before their Dog or their humble service to mankind. Rather their endless squabbles over money, property and the respect they demanded they deserved.
May she rest peacefully and may all the works of her life subside into the ground, leaving no trace.
Posted by: Karen | October 24, 2009 9:09 PM
My condolences as well to Sean and his family. He's a terrific, insightful and hard-working atheist writer.
Though he still regrets his parents' actions, and that the cult they created lives on, he achieved a measure of understanding with his mother before she succumbed to Alzheimer's and I'm glad for that much.
Posted by: llewelly | October 24, 2009 9:35 PM
Dr. Paul Z. Myers, You've done a low-down no-good bad thing!
Look what you've done, you dirty no-account atheists!
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
|
October 24, 2009 9:46 PM
I beg your pardon. I took a shower this morning and I washed my hands before I used the toilet.
Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | October 24, 2009 9:50 PM
And afterwards? Did you walk would without washing?
Back to the topic at hand, I know many religious-nuts will be saying that she is a false profet and deserves to die. But have they ever stop to think that perhaps all their prophets are false (and even non-existant)?
Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | October 24, 2009 9:53 PM
Pardon my Engrish. :( It should be out not would.
Posted by: foxfire | October 24, 2009 10:19 PM
@ Kapitano (#52) and Mike Wagner (#53):
Are you serious when you suggest that the people objecting to PZ's entry (due to personal experience) are being pedantic or politically correct? This is not an attempt at sarcasm, it's a serious question. Mike, even though you had a relative die of Alzheimer's, was it a close relative whom you loved dearly and did the situation rip your heart out and you couldn't show this to others? (not looking for info, just asking you to evaluate the personal impact).
In comment #46, MAJeff posted a link to an Onion article. The intent of the Onion article was to make a point, not make fun of helpless people. I found it darkly funny and am not at all offended, and realize that's just me. MAJeff's comment #46 is cool, IMHO, and not just for the link but also for the words he put around it.
To the people objecting to PZ's entry: This is PZ. Ask yourself, does PZ make fun of helpless people? Is PZ a bully (as opposed to absolutely refusing to be bullied)? He has a point. I think his point is something like:
It's odd that nobody seems to be noticing that there might be a connection between dementia (if it was dementia and not delirium) and fundamentalist, apocryphal religion. The cult founder died and the cult lives on. What's happening here?*
*PZ, I don't know if this was actually your point - it's what I took away from your comments. I find it very interesting give the "we-are-wired-for-religion-so-live-with-it crowd seems to be giving up the well-armed ship while the pirates are still in the water.
Posted by: Zen Druid | October 24, 2009 10:33 PM
I had a relative regress to vegetable status, due to Alzheimers. These things happen.
Re Reagan, I knew he was afflicted 'way back during the Iran-Contra hearings. As you remember (or not) his famous response was "I don't recall."
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | October 24, 2009 11:02 PM
An Ex-Prophet!
But has she joined the Choir Invisible?
Posted by: kopd
|
October 24, 2009 11:34 PM
Just don't call anything "retarded." Might offend someone.
Posted by: Rorschach | October 24, 2009 11:35 PM
Understandeable reaction somewhat, but yeah, it's getting rather tedious that so many people can't look beyond their own little personal horizon.
Also, since this is an ongoing meme around here, comparing religion and religiosity with the output of a faulty brain, from dementia or mental illness/neurotransmitter imbalance, is not equal to making fun of said conditions.
Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger
|
October 24, 2009 11:43 PM
At the risk of a threadjacking:
At what point does woo become harmful? In fact, when does it become woo? Is it when you start trying new or unproven potential therapies? Or is it only when you start using them in lieu of existing and proven therapies?
From what I understand (and I may be wrong about this, so don't take my word for it), Pterry is in the former group. Since there really are no existing therapies for what he's going through, he's well justified (in my not-so-humble opinion) in trying novel solutions.
(Full disclosure: my mother was in the former group, as well. My brother's diabetes is extremely difficult to control, being insulin-resistant as well as insulin-dependent. So, in addition to what medical science could do, she tried things that in retrospect would qualify as wacky-woo: this includes everything from megadoses of vitamin C to Cherokee traditional medicine to herbs to something akin to reiki. Needless to say, it didn't work. So far, the only major improvement was when he was approved for an insulin pump.)
Posted by: nejishiki | October 24, 2009 11:46 PM
I'm also offended by Dr. Demento.
Posted by: Eric | October 25, 2009 12:02 AM
Stephen Hawking was murdered today by a group of Christian radicals allegedly because the theoretical physicist was working on publishing a theory that would explain the origin of the universe and potentially mankind.
Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger
|
October 25, 2009 12:06 AM
Eric:
I assume you're joking. There hasn't been any news of Hawking's death...
Posted by: Aratina Cage
|
October 25, 2009 12:27 AM
Mind diseases are not funny but at times, people with dementia can do some funny stuff while they are functioning. A person I knew suffered from Alzheimer's and at one stage she would openly talk about bedroom activities and all anyone could do was smile and laugh. She also reached a point where she really hated the dog for no reason, and again, we could only laugh and keep the dog away from her.
Of course, with Alzheimer's, eventually there is only a shell of a person with no personality at all, and that is truly harrowing. With people like Reagan, however, it is ironic that they get to forget all the cruel things they did while others have to live with the consequences, and I suspect it is like this with this woman, too, although I have never heard of her in my life until today. Didn't she tell a bunch of lies for decades that ruined people's lives?
And when does dementia start? I'm not sure anyone really knows yet. You can usually look back on questionable things people with dementia did years before anyone knew about the onset of the disease and wonder.
Posted by: Eric | October 25, 2009 12:48 AM
@ Benjamin Geiger
Sadly, no. The reports starting coming in about an hour ago.
Posted by: Rorschach | October 25, 2009 12:55 AM
Dickhead.
Posted by: nejishiki | October 25, 2009 1:10 AM
Poor Hawking. I hope he put up a good fight, at least...
Posted by: Lion IRC | October 25, 2009 1:30 AM
Mr Myers,
Laughter at and sarcasm about the dead is way too easy.
Whenever you take the cheap shot people will think its because you are too lazy or gutless or uninformed (or demented?) to tackle the big issue.
You can do better than that I hope and you should.
I'm sure you dont want to be disavowed by any of your supporters.
A great man is know by the way he treats small men.
Lion (IRC)
Posted by: Rorschach | October 25, 2009 1:43 AM
Lion IRC, master of false equivalence and brave strawman fighter @ 73,
You're free to not read the blog, you know.I think most people here don't see themselves as "supporters" and are more than capable of letting PZ know when they disagree.
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | October 25, 2009 2:00 AM
@Lion IRC:
What big issues? Are these issues bigger than what we are doing right now?
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | October 25, 2009 2:11 AM
Oops. Missed this question in my previous post, Lion IRC:
What could be bigger than what is actually being done now? I know that it is fun to think about what might be true in between moments of comprehension, but what do you mean by making victims of the dead? You seem to be wanting to be a victim yourself.
Posted by: eddie | October 25, 2009 2:22 AM
First, thank you Benjamin and Cath, for setting the Pterry record straight. It is not succumbing to woo to try experimental treatments when they are all you have. It is only woo if you a) deny evidence of effective treatments (vaccination) or b) deny the inneffectiveness of an experimental treatment (chelation, anyone).
Second, re the Hawking story. i find nothing on it at the BBC site bit I did find a story of the ,lashing, of a female journalist in Saudi. i was too disgusted to loof further.
As for dementia, altzheimers, doolalyness. I hope that were it to happen to me, I would at least retain my sense of humour as well as Pterry has. Sadly some posters here appear not to have one to retain.
Finally, apropos old people issues in general:
people want to put us d-d-d-down, (talking'bout our geriatrics)
Because we can't g-g-get around,
Arthritis and our hands are c-c-c-cold,
Wish we'd died before we got old.
Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger
|
October 25, 2009 2:23 AM
Eric:
Ah, I get it now. Bunch of 4chan wankers having a laugh. ("4chan wankers" is kinda redundant, no?)
Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger
|
October 25, 2009 2:49 AM
eddie:
Posted by: greymav
|
October 25, 2009 5:26 AM
I'll say this: she created a church creepy enough to serve as epic villains.
Posted by: Pensnest | October 25, 2009 5:39 AM
Hypatia's Daughter, #47
"My point is that you seem to imply that mocking someone who suffers from delusions would be o.k., but not someone who suffers from dementia. If you truly think that, it makes you just as insensitive as PZ."
Not at all what I intended to say. Undoubtedly the woman who believed in some particularly stupid form of religion was 'deluded' in "the common and careless vernacular" (excellent phrase), and I have no problem with PZ mocking that. I'm an atheist, I think it's daft, too. What I think is inappropriate, and where I think PZ—as a decent, adult human being—should know better is conflating the medical condition of dementia with her potty religious beliefs. If he sincerely meant to say that the religious beliefs were caused by the medical condition, it didn't come across that way. It came across as trivialisation of something that is horrible whoever it happens to, and I expect better from him.
Posted by: shonny
|
October 25, 2009 7:04 AM
TO ALL WHINERS:
Loopy woman screw up others' mind + loopy woman's mind gets screwed up (dementia) = funny in a sick (but still funny) way, - kinda the poetic justice type funny. Roadrunner-style.
You don't like, fine, but as you can see, lots of us don't give a flying fuck whether you do or don't.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | October 25, 2009 9:12 AM
Dementia is not a disease, it is a set of symptoms involving cognitive impairment. The causes are varied, and can be progressive as in Alzheimer's or static as when caused by traumatic injury. The only criteria is that there must be some form of physical change in the brain. Delusions can be a symptom associated with dementia.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
|
October 25, 2009 9:34 AM
Given Hawking's power armor, I'm concerned that the Christian assassins have developed their own giant mecha.
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
|
October 25, 2009 9:50 AM
Pensnest @ 2;
"Tasteless. Dementia is not the same as delusion, and you should hold yourself to higher standards than this."
Akheloios @ 7;
"Make fun of her views, her crackpot theories, and especially her impact on the gullible and credulous but not a heartbreaking disease that strikes believer and sceptic alike, tearing their lives and the lives of their family apart."
Eidolon @ 27;
"I have found that how funny something is is in inverse relationship to your personal experience with it."
I have no direct experience of dementia itself, but I did watch a series of strokes destroy my father's mind until he was nothing but a shell of the man he had formerly been. In the last group of attacks, he died after three months of losing everything that made him what he was.
I sympathise with the reasons why you felt that PZ's post was insensitive, but I think it unlikely that PZ's intent was to insult sufferers of dementia or their families.
While I would not wish dementia upon anyone, I am having difficulty feeling much sympathy for a woman who presided over a cult that damaged countless lives and, if it's weapon stockpiling was any indication, intended to harm many more. I choose to direct that concern toward her victims. It is said that it is not the dying, but the living that counts. She dedicated a good portion of her life to gulling, manipulating and exploiting others for her own gain. It is for this reason that she is rightly condemned. The manner of her death, however tragic, does not absolve her of her prior actions.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
|
October 25, 2009 9:51 AM
The only recent news article I could find about Hawking is the his retirement as Lucasian Professor of Mathematics.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
|
October 25, 2009 9:56 AM
My 87 year old mother wants to live at least another year. That's when she figures her book will be finished and published.
Posted by: Knockgoats
|
October 25, 2009 10:04 AM
No news anywhere I can see of Hawking's death. Eric is either "joking" (but a joke is supposed to be funny), or has been taken in by false reports.
Posted by: shonny
|
October 25, 2009 10:16 AM
Was that Hawking nonsense someone trying to 'take revenge' on 'us' to see if we would consider that as a joke?
The difference between someone like Hawking and the religious cranks is that Hawking use all his available faculties to further understanding and knowledge, whereas the christo-nuts, like that Prophet sheila, use all their abilities to avoid any real understanding and knowledge because it may offend their imagined master in the sky.
The only thing after life is a perpetual silence, a nothingness, and thankfully we will be absolutely unaware of it. And that is a joke on all the religious delusionists.
Posted by: Hypatia's Daughter
|
October 25, 2009 2:09 PM
#81 Pensnest
Did you miss my meaning or are you just too embarrassed to admit you did the same thing as PZ?
You were quite happy to call this crackpot "delusional" but upset that she was referred to as demented.
Are you only sensitive to medical & mental ailments that you & your family personally suffer from? Because, I assure you, if one of your family members was wandering the streets wearing a tinfoil hat to keep the CIA from beaming signals into his brain, making a crack about being delusional wouldn't be funny either.
Posted by: Pensnest | October 25, 2009 3:16 PM
Hypatia's Daughter #90
"Did you miss my meaning or are you just too embarrassed to admit you did the same thing as PZ?"
I thought I had explained that I was using 'delusions' in what you yourself described as "the common and careless vernacular", ie not referring to a particular medical condition. I thought it was inappropriate for PZ to mock someone suffering from dementia, as I think mental deterioration of any kind is one of the most horrible things that can happen to a person. I'm sorry that my use of the word 'delusions' caused you to think otherwise. How should I rephrase?
"Are you only sensitive to medical & mental ailments that you & your family personally suffer from?"
No, at least, I hope very much not.
I assume that you do not wish me to infer from that statement that you think I am mentally ill—but the inference is possible. Language is tricky.
Posted by: Per-Erik Svensson | October 25, 2009 5:11 PM
@89
I agree that they achieve very different things, crack-pots and scientists. But there is a difference between respecting ones ideas and respecting one as a human being.
Maybe I'm to ignorant about what she did in her lifetime?
Posted by: Lion IRC | October 25, 2009 6:46 PM
Hi Rorschach,
I read your post (74) about how capable people (like you?)are ready willing and able to let PZ Myers know if they disagree with the gutless use of ad hom attacks on the deceased. Strangely, I could not actually detect an opinion from YOU on the matter. What is one to conclude from this? Hmmm!
I am, however, very glad to hear your opinion that..."most people here don't see themselves as supporters" of PZ Myers. Neither am I ....so far.
Lion (IRC)
Posted by: Rorschach | October 25, 2009 6:49 PM
Those big latin words mate, they dont mean what you think they mean.
Posted by: Lion IRC | October 25, 2009 7:14 PM
Hi Rorschach,
Here's another one couple of those intimidating BIG(?) latin words.
"Non sequitur"
Similar to argumentum ad hominem insofar as it is often seen when someone wants to change from THE actual topic to something else irrelevant and logically unconnected.
I use non sequitur because its easier to spell than obfuscation.
Lion (IRC)
Posted by: Janine, Ignorant Slut, OM | October 25, 2009 9:52 PM
No thanks, toby Lin. I hope that PZ delete's your post because it has no relevance to anything.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
October 25, 2009 9:59 PM
And you call yourself Lion since you are always lyin'. We have your number. Stupid and delusional.Posted by: zarbi
|
October 25, 2009 11:49 PM
"Some years"? Like, about 40?
Well done PZ. This ranks along with schoolkids calling each other "retards".
Having seen people with dementia suffer daily mental torture, I find your joke crass and upsetting.
There should be no law against causing offence, but equally, there is a right to feel offence.
If you have any decency, you will apologise for this post.
Posted by: Janine The Ineffable, OM | October 26, 2009 12:04 AM
Thank you, PZ.
Posted by: Rorschach | October 26, 2009 2:14 AM
Seriously matey, if this is an attempt to poe or be funny, you're doing it wrong.
If you're for real, you should maybe read Mickey Mouse's blog, instead of this one.
Posted by: foxfire | October 26, 2009 11:11 PM
@zarbi # 98
Regarding the "40 years" statement PZ made: what makes you think he was joking?
It's interesting that you think you are some kind of fount of knowledge from your observation of people suffering from dementia.
To PZ: I don't know that you will even see this comment and in the event you do, thank you sir. Your entry and many of the comments have been quite helpful. The specific disease (not yet identified) that resulted in my mom's current state of dementia (manifested continually over the last 9 years, in a downward trend) started a very long time ago.