…and this is a 
Atheists are familiar with the Grandma Gambit — it's a common tactic used to shut us up. We're told to keep quiet because our dear sweet devout Grandma couldn't possibly deal with the news; it would break her heart and you wouldn't want to do that, would you? What kind of callous rat would hurt a gentle little old lady!
It's a rather patronizing suggestion that belittles Grandmas everywhere. Both of my grandmothers were feisty types who would have relished a good argument (and one of my grandmothers, who died when I was 12, would probably have just said, "good for you"). Go ahead, break the news to Grandma — it's much more respectful than treating her like a delicate flower that would wilt at the thought of you not going to church.
Here's a more realistic reaction from a Christian grandmother who hears that you've left the faith: an argument, in the form of a 33 page handwritten letter which is almost entirely a creationist screed. It's interesting, too, because I see this a lot, that nowadays the response to apostasy is often built around arguments against evolution. There is an expectation that faith is not enough, and that calling the faithful back to the fold is a matter of reasoned argument with 'science' on their side. Unfortunately for them, they don't have any science at all, and Grandma's letter is a series of creationist canards, from the "just a theory" error to the absence of transitional fossils, all wrapped up with bible verses.
So Grandma wants to talk; what does the grandson do? He writes back with a 17 page letter, neatly typed, with charts and figures! Bravo! This is how loving families should deal with faith, by simply caring enough to wrestle with the ideas between them.
Comments
Posted by: Carlie
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October 14, 2009 10:36 AM
Wow. I think I need to save that letter and keep it on hand in case of emergency. Very well done.
Posted by: Kane148
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October 14, 2009 10:44 AM
That's pretty cool. I wish I could count on my family to be so reasonable in their response to my apostasy...
Posted by: Rorschach
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October 14, 2009 10:47 AM
Yeah well, my grandma is 99, catholic closedminded and crumbly, it's just not worth it really.
Posted by: raven
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October 14, 2009 10:51 AM
It is more complicated than that. More than a few Grandmothers think religion is nonsense and its followers are weak minded idiots.
Old people can be blunt because they've seen a lot and they don't have a lot of time to deal with delusions.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp
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October 14, 2009 10:56 AM
My grandparents are all gone but my grandfather was a pretty staunch atheist so I never had to have that conversation. In fact we had better ones focusing on much more real and cool things like insects, plants and baseball.
Posted by: Pascalle
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October 14, 2009 10:57 AM
I don't have any grandparents left, but the last one that died, my grandmother on dad's side was quite religious.
She also knew i am a godless raging bisexual and didn't make any problem of it.
The only remark she made once to my mom was.. "So does she go for women or men at the moment?"
:)
Posted by: Deen
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October 14, 2009 10:59 AM
I'm more annoyed at the "Granny on her deathbed" gambit myself.
Posted by: Matt Penfold
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October 14, 2009 10:59 AM
My maternal grandmother, sadly no longer alive, caused a family split. My cousin (son of her son) was planning to move in with his girlfriend. His other grandparents were very religious (Methodist if I recall) and were totally opposed to this, so my gran was invited down to join them in putting a stop to it.
The plan backfired. My gran was rather taken with my cousin's girlfriend, and rather than telling them no to move in with each other, ended up promising to make them curtains if they needed them. She never did get invited to visit again.
Posted by: Speedwell
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October 14, 2009 11:02 AM
I was raised Presbyterian. I didn't announce I was an atheist until after my fundie mom had died. She was already heartbroken over the very thought that I might not be as devout as she was, and she was in the hospital dying of breast cancer, so I figured it would be mean to confess the whole thing.
At the funeral, my grandmother asked me something or other about church, and I said, "To be honest, Grandma, I'm an atheist." To my utter shock, she laughed and said, "So am I." Awesome.
Posted by: Reginald Selkirk
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October 14, 2009 11:06 AM
Be sure to print it up in a large font in case her vision isn't what it used to be.My grandmother was a freethinker.
Posted by: Divalent
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October 14, 2009 11:06 AM
But look at all the counter evidence! Wasn't that a touching moment in "The Invention of Lying" when Ricky Gervais tells his mum (about to expire) about all the good things awaiting her in the afterlife?
Posted by: Sastra
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October 14, 2009 11:19 AM
As I interpret it, the "Grandmother Gambit" is meant to apply to the culture as a whole, not just grandmothers or grandmother-equivalents. The reasoning goes "if you would not upset a pious grandmother on her deathbed with your atheist views, then you shouldn't make any public display or arguments for atheism at all because the world is simply filled with weak, fragile people in need of comfort, and you might upset one of them, somehow, some way, at some time." We're supposed to soft-peddle our views on the assumption that believers are delicate flowers, cripples with a crutch. Don't take away their crutch. Stick with writing obscure articles in philosophy journals.
The Grandmother Gambit is bad enough coming from atheists (the I'm-an-atheist-BUT-ters), but coming from believers it's incredibly disingenuous. They swagger around insisting that it takes more faith to be an atheist than a theist because the existence of God is soooo obvious and clear and nature proves God and the Bible proves God and science proves God and Aquinas proved God 5 different ways -- but atheists start to show up in the mainstream media and refute that and suddenly they're clutching their chests and gasping for air, moaning piteously about having the right to believe what they want, needing hope and comfort, and atheists are being mean to dying grandmothers.
Right.
Posted by: Matt Penfold
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October 14, 2009 11:19 AM
Who ever does the Ads on this site really does need to get a clue.
Do they really think that there will be many takers for a Christian dating website ? Or many wanting a free copy of the Bible on CD ? But then there is also an add for Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science", which is just the sort book to appeal to readers of this blog.
Posted by: Epinephrine
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October 14, 2009 11:21 AM
Well written letter by Josh. The bit about how grandma denies the evidence-free assertions of other religions was well handled.
I'm finding some resistance to my atheism from my father (I have no living grandparents, but I imagine there would have been spirited discussions if any were alive). He's not particularly theistic (I'd call him an agnostic, but one with perhaps some vague deist thing going on?), but seems upset by the thought of outright denying the existence of god(s) and finds atheist activism rude (for example, he felt that the atheist bus ads were inappropriate). He's very concerned about being polite and believes in working not to offend his fellows, while denying that religion has much influence in life here (Ottawa, Canada - and I agree that it's much less influence than it has in the USA or even out west in Alberta). Wearing my red "A" lapel pin seems to bother him - he doesn't seem to find the display of religious belief rude, but displaying non-belief in his eyes is akin to telling everyone that they are wrong. Of course, wearing a Star of David is likewise telling Muslim, Christian, and atheist that you think they are wrong, but to him it's acceptable, perhaps as it is a positive (assertive) rather than a negative (denying) belief.
Anyway, congrats to Josh, it is a substantial letter that hopefully will be read with care. I'm lucky to not be in his situation, and wish him (and his grandma) well.
Posted by: Bad Albert
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October 14, 2009 11:24 AM
Of course the fundies would have no problem trying to convert your dying grandma on her death bed. But for some reason, de-conversion is considered callous.
Speaking of older people with open minds, I found out the 80 year-old woman who lives upstairs has been reading my copy of The Skeptical Inquirer that always comes in the mail while I'm out of town. She loves the anti-ghost and anti-pseudo-science topics. But since she has been doing this, they haven't done one of their anti-religion issues. It's only a matter of time before the next one though. Should be interesting.
Posted by: a_ray_in_dilbert_space
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October 14, 2009 11:26 AM
My Father in law is physical chemist--the first in his family to gat a PhD. His father told him one time that he wished that he'd been born stupid so he wouldn't have questioned the faith.
My wife and her siblings were brought up as atheists. At about the tender age of 8, a neighbor took pity on their poor damned souls and asked their parents if they could take them to church. My in-laws agonized about this a bit, but figured that, being good, tolerant former '60s hippies, they couldn't really say no. They worried until about the 2nd Sunday when my mother-in-law observed her spawn constructing an alter with their piggy banks and proudly decided that they'd drawn the proper lesson.
Posted by: Acolyte of the Pink Unicorn Goddess
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October 14, 2009 11:33 AM
I did keep my atheism from my maternal grandmother. She was a sweet old lady, and to know that "her" little girl wasn't saved would have distressed her more than I cared to. She was the main reason I went through with confirmation, even though that was the time I realized I wasn't merely agnostic, but a full on strong atheist. Standing on principles just wasn't worth the heart-brake.
The older generation are the last of the "true believers". I suspect our children will be the last generation to "do it for grandma". My in-laws are believers of a sort, but are fine with both of their children married to atheists. It is just an unspoken rule that we don't discuss religion.
Religion has become more tradition than belief anyway. You get married in church, because that's how it's always been done, and children are baptised, otherwise how would we know what their name is? ;)
Posted by: kopd
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October 14, 2009 11:36 AM
That is an excellent letter. I don't think I'll be doing anything like that, though. I don't even want tell my grandmother that I drink. She thinks that should be illegal. I can only imagine how the conversation would go. She's overly stubborn and convinced she's right about everything. How she survived life with my grandfather who was just as stubborn and self-assured, but held so many opposing views, is baffling.
The good news is my folks are cool. I had a great coming-out conversation with my mother (who I had long suspected of being an agnostic) recently and thanked her for raising me to think critically. My dad, on the other hand, is a day-age creationist. But he also believes "once saved, always saved" and I used to be Christian, so he's not worried about my soul. Thus I just avoid the topic because there's no point. He's not changing his mind, not trying to change anyone else's, and he's not going to disown me, so there's nothing to discuss. Now, if I ever hear that IDiots are trying to affect the school board in his state, I'll be calling him, but short of that, nah.
Posted by: Spyderkl
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October 14, 2009 11:39 AM
I wasn't an atheist back when my grandparents were alive, but I think my granddad could have taken it pretty well. He was religious - as in read the Bible after church on Sunday; as in actually reading, enough to tell us kids that we probably shouldn't read the Bible on our own... I do know that he wrestled with religious belief toward the end of his life. If he had lived longer, he might have wound up an atheist himself.
Granny was a different story entirely. She wouldn't have gotten the vapors. She would have gotten pissed off. I can't say I loved my gran as much as I feared her. No way would I have risked telling her when she was alive, not even in her 90s.
Posted by: Michelle R
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October 14, 2009 11:42 AM
The memories that triggers...
One of my grandmas would've prayed for me. Or given me the evil eye and started rambling about kids these days... And how I'm a bad woman for not cooking and cleaning and because I DARED play VIDEO GAMES. (She also blew a fuse when she caught two of my young teen sisters changing clothes together in the same room. Oh my god, they could see each other's boobies. Tragedy.)
Talk back and get a spank. That was her main argument... Jesus, being a good woman, and body parts are not to be glanced.
The other one just smiles, says she loves me the way I am and gives me cookies. :P She's not the arguing type.
Posted by: Matt Penfold
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October 14, 2009 11:42 AM
There is a lot in this. There are events in life that are worth making some effort to mark, and and hatches, matches and dispatches are the ones most people find important. It is easy to have a non-religious wedding, and non-religious funerals are also pretty easy to organise1. There does not yet seem to be a non-religious event marking the birth of a child.
1 I went to one a couple of years ago. The person officiating was a retired C of E vicar, who was happy to conduct a non-religious funeral service. She was good at it too.
Posted by: gyeong-hwa
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October 14, 2009 11:50 AM
I don't think that my shamanist/animist grandma would have cared much over my lack of belief.
Posted by: Rawnaeris
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October 14, 2009 11:52 AM
I wish I had the fortitude that Josh did. My family is wonderful, but they are all religious. It's just easier to not rock the boat (as much as I'd like to sometimes.)
My mother knows me as agnostic. This alone has her in I-must-convert mode. I'd never be able to have a real conversation with her again if she found out I was a full-blown atheist.
My father didn't use to be particularly religious, but he has recently started attending a Baptist church and is showing a turn for the worse.
If my family does ever find out my view and decides to have a cow over it, I hope I can be as calm, loving and exact as Josh was in that letter.
Posted by: whydowebelieve
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October 14, 2009 11:54 AM
I like this story. Though in my experience my Creationist Christian brother and his family are already convinced, prior to argument, that the evidence and science is on their side.
So when the Creationists set out to have a rational discourse they seem to already have the answers to every critical objection to their points. What naturally follows then, is that when the atheist/rationalist is not convinced to come back to the faith they fall back on their the-path-of-righteousness-is-followed-by-few self-righteousness. The Creationist is then right back to their conviction that because the atheists/rationalists reject their viewpoint that they are that much more special and chosen by their god.
That said, I still think it is good to continue to challenge these deluded minds.
Posted by: tsig0
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October 14, 2009 12:01 PM
Why do we have to serve any master?
Posted by: Techskeptic
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October 14, 2009 12:04 PM
Someone tell that to these grandmas
Posted by: Ray Moscow
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October 14, 2009 12:04 PM
Josh's letter to Grandma rocked.
Unfortunately, she's probably not going to read most of it, but that's up to her. And she won't be writing him any more long letters condemning his lack of faith.
Posted by: raven
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October 14, 2009 12:05 PM
Hard to say what my Grandmother believed. She didn't speak English very well and I didn't speak her language very well.
Posted by: Ericka
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October 14, 2009 12:05 PM
This is EXACTLY what my grandma would do! She loves writing letters to her family telling them how they're not perfect enough or how they've disappointed god.
Posted by: charley
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October 14, 2009 12:07 PM
Wow, what an admirable effort by Josh. Until I see a spark of curiosity from the theists in my life I'm not willing to work that hard. Considering how many of them there are, it never ceases to amaze me how they either lack or hide any curiosity about why I left the church.
Posted by: lose_the_woo
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October 14, 2009 12:09 PM
Well my $0.02 is that it was a waste of time if his grandma is a strong believer. I read his response. It was fairly well crafted, but IMO way too heavy in scientific jargon and detail (for a grandma). Regardless, in my experience, grandma or young whipper-snapper, if the person strongly holds unreasonable views, no amount of reason can change their stance and those types of exchanges quickly reduce into a pissing contest.
Posted by: KemaTheAtheist
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October 14, 2009 12:10 PM
Isn't that a baby shower?
As to the other stuff, I'm pretty sure my paternal grandma would be fine with it. She might not agree, but we could have a conversation I'm sure. Some of my favorite things she's ever said:
(While watching "Analyze This") "Hey. Rewind that. I want to count just how many times Robert deNiro just said "fuck.""
(While talking about recent movies like "knocked up" and others) "That movie was like soft core porn... and I know porn."
o.O Yeah. She actually said that. It made me do a double take.
My maternal grandma I'm sure is like my mom and would look at me with disgust at hearing the word "atheist," but I think my paternal grandpa is more agnostic or deist now. I think he ended up getting fed up with the hypocracy, so at the least he never goes to church anymore.
Still, the best things every said to me was "you think too much" and "you're too much of a scientist." I'll take those as a compliment.
Posted by: tacitus
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October 14, 2009 12:15 PM
If there is anything wrong with the grandson's reply, it's that it reads way too much like a college assignment with all those quotes and footnotes. While I understand why he did it that way, I suspect he would be more effective cutting out most of the quotes from other atheists and spending more time writing about his own thoughts and his own experiences in a more personal way.
I think that would have more chance of connecting with his grandmother (however slim that might be).
Posted by: El Guerrero del Interfaz
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October 14, 2009 12:24 PM
It all depends on the situation.
Once I had the dilemma with my own grand-mother. My grand-father had just died and I had to console her. She did not know that I was an atheist as my deconversion was recent and we were living quite apart, me in Spain and her in Belgium.
Of course, although a very religious person, what we call here a "grenouille de bénitier" or a "punaise de sacristie", she was of course not cretinist. These fringe beliefs here in Europe are limited to uneducated marginal types like some gypsies, very small evangelical sects and muslim integrists.
So what did I do? What was more important to me? Her well being and happiness of course so I just went along with the typical religious routine. You know the "now he is happy with God, you're going to reunite with him in time" and so on.
Of course it was not the truth, of course I was lying, of course it could be said that I was not being honest and I was compromising my convictions. But I think sometimes people and their well-being must go before these or any other things.
For me it's what distinguish me from fundies: they are not willing to compromise their beliefs for anything or anybody (theoretically...) but for me people, and specially people I love, go first.
Posted by: Sastra
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October 14, 2009 12:24 PM
Matt Penfold #21 wrote:
They're called "Naming Ceremonies," and they can be presided over by a Humanist Celebrant (or done on your own.) It's pretty much the same as a Baptism, but without the baptism part -- gooey poetry and people giving advice and good wishes and cake. The Atheist Alliance International had a naming ceremony at one of their conventions a few years back, but I missed it.
There's no reason Naming Ceremonies can't catch on. Names are symbols of the person they represent. Having a party to welcome a new baby and congratulate the family makes reasonable sense on the secular level. And if there is food, they will come.
Posted by: sizzzzlerz
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October 14, 2009 12:26 PM
An excellent, reasoned response but I fear it will be wasted. Even if fundy grandma reads and understands the whole letter (which I sincerely doubt), her jebus-soaked neural paths are predisposed to simply ignore it and declare her grandson is in the clutches of the debil and is going to h-e-double hockey sticks.
Posted by: Insightful Ape
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October 14, 2009 12:32 PM
I have to say at some level th Grandma comes across as more consistent than Francis Collins and Ken Miller.
I haven't had much of a problem with my own granny but with my not so sweat elder aunts. They did throw a tantrum when they found out Allah didn't mean anything to me any more, but luckily it never really mattered. (That is, to me).
Posted by: Byron
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October 14, 2009 12:40 PM
He researched his letter extremely well, which was my favorite part since I share his opinions. I might have gone lighter on the footnotes, but they were the best kind of footnote: often more interesting then the actual text.
I would also be very interested to know what software he used to write his letter. The final result looks fantastic.
Posted by: Sigmund
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October 14, 2009 12:41 PM
KematheAtheist said:
"Still, the best things every said to me was "you think too much" and "you're too much of a scientist." I'll take those as a compliment."
Your granny is Randy Olsen?
Posted by: Jennifurret
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October 14, 2009 12:50 PM
My parents have pretty much threatened to destroy me if I tell my grandparents (who are 88 years old and Greek Orthodox) that I'm an atheist. It's all rather ridiculous, really. They know our family is not religious - we've never gone to church, I wasn't baptized, we never ever speak about religion. On top of that, a simple Google search pretty much outs me as an atheist - I'm the president of an atheist club at a Big Ten university, because of that I'm interviewed a lot in newspapers, and I have a fairly popular blog where I unabashedly talk about atheism. Of course, they have no idea how to use a computer.
I hate the fact that I want to be even more of an activist - I'd love to help with national campaigns, do something really controversial, write a book - but I can't because they can't find out.
Posted by: SantaCruzOM
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October 14, 2009 12:51 PM
#31
I think the letter was much more than "fairly well crafted". That sounds a bit dismissive. Furthermore, I have to believe that while the letter was addressed to the Grandmother, it was written as much for Josh as it was for her. That sort of exploration and codification of one's beliefs is a rewarding and liberating endeavor. Since the letter implies that Grandmother holds a masters degree in biology, I suspect that the scientific jargon is not over her head.
Posted by: shiyiya
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October 14, 2009 12:52 PM
I'll confess to avoiding telling my grandmother straight out that I'm an atheist and bisexual. It just isn't worth it. She's eighty and her husband of nearly sixty years died two years ago. I have enough issues getting along with that side of the family without them trying to convert me. If granddad was still alive, I might consider it, because he was a rocket scientist and awesome, but just not really a point in telling grandma.
And if I told grandma my Jehovah's Witness aunt would find out and she already gives me enough literature on that >_
(Raised basically atheist by agnostic parents.)
Posted by: Desert Son
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October 14, 2009 12:56 PM
I like that Josh answered in a technical paper format, and I like that throughout he tempered it with words of genuine affection and appreciation for his grandmother. His tone conveys his love for his grandmother, and his recognition that she cares about him, while the evidence he puts in his letter shows that he respects her intelligence enough not to dumb things down for her, respects her intelligence enough to present her with the material and work through some of the issues. The references are available for her to confirm independently if she wants, and sometimes a journey towards greater understanding starts with pursuing a single reference somewhere, that leads to more, that can really grab hold of you the more you uncover.
I think it was a great response, and represents a kind of dialogue that can be psychologically important between grandparents and grandchildren. Tied to it is the issue of development and parent/grandparent/child relationships. It can be easy for adults to continue to view their children and grandchildren as children, even into adulthood. In terms of progenitor relationships, those individuals will always be, technically classified, "children," but it's an important step in relationships when parents/grandparents begin to recognize their children as adults capable of independent self-determination.
I think that ties back to one of the problems with Christianity (I don't know how much it relates to other religious traditions; perhaps it connects with the Abrahamic ones, but I'm less informed about others), which posits a constant child-to-parent relationship between believer and purported deity, and nowhere in the tradition does the purported deity purportedly acknowledge the children have grown into adulthood. It strikes me as a religion of permanent infantilism.
My grandparents are all dead. I can only say one of them was a deeply religious person, the other three didn't show as much devotion outwardly, but what they really felt inside, I'll never know. It's my parents that I worry about now, both deeply religious, both fretting that the apparent "declining state of the world" owes to lack of faith in god, and suspecting perhaps that I don't believe as they do. I've not outed myself as an atheist to them, but perhaps they suspect. I don't know. When that happens, well, all I keep hearing in my head is Jayne Cobb: "Well, that'll be an interesting day."
Good on Josh for his thoughtful and excellent letter.
No kings,
Robert
Posted by: DLC
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October 14, 2009 1:01 PM
All four of my grandparents are dead, so they won't be having a conniption when I tell them, because they died before I officially stepped away from religion.
Posted by: jsullivan.myopenid.com
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October 14, 2009 1:05 PM
Byron said:
"I would also be very interested to know what software he used to write his letter. The final result looks fantastic."
Hi Byron,
I'm the author of the letter. I used Apple's "Pages" word processor for the entire thing. The font family is Schtempel Schneidler Std. As for the little "Location" bar at the bottom of every page, well, I built that manually and pasted it to the bottom of each page, making the grey progress bar longer with each new page. I stole that idea from the Amazon Kindle. I think it works.
It should be said that nothing there's no unique feature about "Pages" that helped with the formatting of this letter. Commenters on reddit.com were quick to point out that OpenOffice and LaTex are both able to do the same thing.
Posted by: aratina cage
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October 14, 2009 1:11 PM
Debating grandma about theism and creationism sounds like loads of fun. I hope the grandson keeps us up to date on grandma's response. The letter was also very creative in style. Although the footnotes were a little too much, I really liked the reading-progress bar at the bottom and the use of the pale-blue dot in the conclusion. Grandma might be proud of the thoroughness and quality of the response even if she disagrees with it.
Posted by: truthspeaker
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October 14, 2009 1:14 PM
My brother and his wife sent out announcement postcards when my niece was born. That seems sufficient to me.
Posted by: Glen Davidson
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October 14, 2009 1:16 PM
Granny didn't do that badly with her limited knowledge, although all of the old cliches are there.
But this isn't how it would typically go. Grannies are worried about you breaking up the family, which is supposed to be reunited in heaven. And if my mom is dying and asks me to promise to be in heaven with her, I'll just go ahead and promise--it's as true as her claim to be going to heaven, and as false.
Really, the idea that this is all about reason and evidence is where Josh gets poor ol' Granny wrong. She already knows that human science is fallible (true), and that god is not (it's true that god is not, not truth that god is infallible), so is hardly to be persuaded by some "mere human."
I just hope he knows when to quit, really.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: lose_the_woo
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October 14, 2009 1:17 PM
#41
And you, like I, am entitled to an opinion. The point of my comment wasn't meant to necessarily emphasize my subjective opinions on the quality of the letter or the grandma. Perhaps my ability to communicate that was poor. What I meant to emphasize is that in my experience, engaging strong believers with high levels of detail that challenge their world-view usually ends up frustratingly unproductive.
Perhaps, in your experience, things go differently.
Posted by: truthspeaker
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October 14, 2009 1:18 PM
Don't fool yourself. You can help with national campaigns or write a book, if you're willing to face the potential flak from your parents - if they even find out.
Posted by: KemaTheAtheist
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October 14, 2009 1:19 PM
Nope. That was just my fundy mother. Funny... both of my parents encouraged me to go to college and in education, but now my mother is disappointed that I apply the critical thinking skills to everything including religion. Maybe if she named me Ken or Francis I would have taken to it differently.
Posted by: RamblinDude
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October 14, 2009 1:20 PM
Church for my dear, sweet Grandma was important, especially in her later years. It was a social network and communal support, especially through hardships. I would never have thought of trying to chastise her for participating, or of forcing my views on her, and she wasn’t one for deep philosophical discussions. Even so, it was especially irritating when the young preacher at her funeral droned on about the importance of knowing Jesus and being saved. He practically did a confessional service right there in the funeral home. She didn’t live her life like that, and it was insulting to the memory of her.
Many of my relatives are typical Midwestern believers. Church picnics and get-togethers are important to them, and though I don’t close my eyes during Thanksgiving Day prayer in pretend reverence, I’d never try to disrupt it, either. But if they ask me about god? I have no problem shrugging it all off and saying “Naw, I don’t believe in gods.” In fact, I must have an ornery streak in me, as their shock, pity and concern for my spiritual welfare rather amuses me.
It’s all so tedious, though, especially with the more hardcore ones. Dealing with people who aren’t truth-seeking — whatever their worldview — is boring, and I have very little patience anymore with the Rapture crowd, even if they are family.
Posted by: SantaCruzOM
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October 14, 2009 1:26 PM
I did something recently that I should confess. My 75 yr old mother asked if I would take her to church, so I did. While she has to suspect that I don't share her beliefs, we have never actually addressed the issue in conversation. She is truly the sweetest, most caring person I have ever come in contact with. She is generous to a fault and generally brings joy to anyone who meets her. Out of respect, I have never felt the need to burden her with my ideas on religion, because frankly it would do nothing but cause her stress and discomfort. That doesn't seem like the right way to repay her love and kindness. So, I've left it alone. For various reasons, she hasn't been to church in many years. So when she asked if I would take her recently, I obliged without argument. I took her to a small country church which I had attended as a child. I remembered it as a standard traditional Baptist church. However, in the last few years, it's grown into a progressive Baptist congregation geared more toward attracting the younger generation. I walked in to find at least 15 people on stage singing contemporary gospel music. There were two electric guitars, a full drum set, a stand alone electric keyboard, a choir, several floaters doing whatever they were doing and giant flat screens on the walls displaying the lyrics of each song. Everyone was dressed in casual clothes. People were introducing themselves and greeting one another and shouting praises and extendign their hands upward while singing. The whole affair was alot less formal than I remembered. One of the young choir guys took the mic before the "sermon" and asked that the camera be turned off (I didn't realize there was a camera to begin with). He then gave a tearful review of what the church missionnaries had been dealing with in S. Africa. He noted that the prayer book in front of the stage had lots of slots open for people to sign up to pray for the missionaries. He actually chastized the congregation for not filling the book with signatures, noting that the only reason that the missions had been successful was due to the prayers of the church. Next came the sermon. It was a strange interpretation of how Jesus had fed the multitudes with the 5 loaves and two fish. I sat in stunned silence for an hour witnessing my fellow humans engaging in this ritual. I can't adequately describe my discomfort. The lack of reason and logic on display in that room was frightening. I don't want to go back. My mother has since told me that a number of the congregation has asked about me and would like to see me in attendance again. While it's funny to think that they have no idea what I'm really about, the thought of regularly interacting with that group makes me a bit queasy.
Posted by: aratina cage
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October 14, 2009 1:27 PM
@The author #45
Ahh. Stole it from the Kindle, did you? ;) It is a worthy reading device to steal for use in short digital publications, and I can see it being more functional on paper than a number surrounded by graphical flourishes.Be sure to let us know how your letter is received by grandma!
Posted by: Jennifurret
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October 14, 2009 1:29 PM
truthspeaker (#50), I guess I just find it kind of sad that my parents, who aren't religious and support what I'm doing, would be so proud if I got a book published, even about atheism...if my Grandparents had 0% chance of knowing (aka, after they were dead). If I did that now, they'd be terrified. That just seems kind of morbid to me.
Posted by: lose_the_woo
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October 14, 2009 1:30 PM
Those can be very cumbersome conversations indeed.
Posted by: SantaCruzOM
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October 14, 2009 1:31 PM
#49
I don't disagree with your point Woo.
Posted by: mothwentbad
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October 14, 2009 1:32 PM
Do atheists and other non-born-agains get their own grandma gambit? i.e., if your grandmother were a determined atheist, would you waste the last hours of your time together trolling for Jesus? Because often enough, yes, they totally would, and we just have to respect that their heart is in the right place, which means that everything is fair game and they don't have to give a shit about what follows as long as they do whatever it is they do firmly but "politely" with a mind for irreproachability.
I should add that my parents did something like that with my grandma if not when she was dying, near the end of her life. They sent someone from the church to talk to her and everything, like unsolicited, no shit, for reals. I didn't hear about it until much later, and I don't know the details.
PZ, I think another post is in order, because I suspect that lots of people have stories like mine. Not only is the grandma gambit total nonsense, but frequently, it's blatantly hypocritical. Or maybe it's by definition not hypocritical if you're just trying to "save" someone while you still can - somehow, I think not, because they have to have some glimmer that they're just kidding themselves and that they shouldn't be making it someone else's problem, clinging to their apron strings as they hobble weakly to death's door, begging THEM for reassurance, of all people. This kind of bollocks illustrates once again how repulsive and arbitrary the doctrine of salvation by faith is.
Posted by: Benjamin Geiger
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October 14, 2009 1:38 PM
Are there any OpenOffice.org (or, if we're lucky, Microsoft Word or Apple Pages) developers reading this?
If so, could we get a "progress bar" feature in the next version of whichever program you work on? It'd be much appreciated.
Posted by: RamblinDude
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October 14, 2009 1:39 PM
I understand perfectly.
Posted by: Abdul Alhazred
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October 14, 2009 1:40 PM
So would you or any decent person, if you geniunely believed that otherwise granny was about to be tortured forever by the insanely jealous Big Guy.Posted by: lose_the_woo
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October 14, 2009 1:40 PM
I share a lot of what you described in your account. Although, my mother would be seen as having a harder edge and quite strident. Still, reflecting while reading that post, made me a bit queasy as well. And I, like you, have not yet found a good enough reason to disrupt my parent's emotional outlook for their son by informing them that the debil has my soul.
(of course, that would be their conclusion after hours of me trying to explain and demonstrate to them why I think devils and souls, as well as deities, are not real)
Posted by: JBlilie
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October 14, 2009 1:44 PM
The kid rocks. I wanted to praise him on his own site; but no way to do that without registering.
If he's reading these comments (one of the comments on his site alerted him to this posting), I think it was a most wonderful letter.
I'm writin' this shit down ...
Posted by: mothwentbad
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October 14, 2009 1:45 PM
otherwise granny was about to be tortured forever by the insanely jealous Big Guy
...which either blows their "omnibenevolence" hypothesis completely out of the water, or exposes the utter perversity of their working definition of the term.
Posted by: Abdul Alhazred
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October 14, 2009 1:49 PM
I'll go with the utter perversity explanation.
But usually it's decent enough people in the grip of a delusion.
Posted by: Glen Davidson
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October 14, 2009 1:57 PM
Ugh, memes and confirmation bias. Aren't these pretty much ways of labeling the other person in a way that will make him defensive? The obvious comeback is to ask why you're somehow free of the perniciousness of "memes," and don't you pretty much read stuff with which you agree?
I just don't see the point of bringing these things up unless you realize the other person isn't the slightest bit open (granny really isn't, but we're being told to act as if she is) to evidence and reason, one reason why we don't mind hurling such charges at the usual unthinking cretinist who comes in here.
Memes really are too reductionistic to bring up, since any and all opinions could be considered nothing but memes--and, for instance, evolution would be considered to be one of the university memes, a cultural thing. The important fact contrary to that charge is that science is designed to keep skepticism alive (not always succeeding), so that our unavoidable biases are at least challenged when they interfere.
And I don't in the slightest doubt that many on our side are indeed guilty of confirmation bias. So that gets us absolutely nowhere. Many creationists think that they've gotten past the confirmation bias of "establishment science," meaning that their confirmation bias is that we need to get past our own biases.
And the appeal to authority is very thick in Josh's letter, and it really is a fallacy. For myself, I don't mind most of the use of authorities, because I have reason to believe that Coyne and Dawkins are generally correct. But what is it really supposed to mean to someone who isn't in a position to judge these "authorities" to be worthwhile?
I can only really see challenging them to answer the questions that science (evolutionary theory in this case) can answer, and that "design" and other claptrap has never answered. Josh's one example is rather pathetic, clearly something that a loving designer wouldn't be expected to produce (the "Fall" is readily evoked by the ignorant), but not one whose evolutionary explanation is at all obvious.
Frankly, as a piece of persuasion, I'm not impressed by Josh's letter. It's too much a college paper (profs generally recognize why his authorities are worth quoting), too little a letter to convince granny. I understand why he wrote his college paper, as he's either a college student or shortly out of college, so my point is not to fault Josh. It is no ideal of persuasion to granny who is worried about his not going to heaven, however.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: mothwentbad
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October 14, 2009 1:59 PM
Well, they're "decent enough people" who'd use the gambit as a general gag rule against talking about atheism, without seeing the hypocrisy. In my book, they don't get a get out of jail free card for Jesus trolling just because their "heart is in the right place".
Grown adults with childish ideas about saving the whole world, making life a pain for people who aren't in on their little roleplaying game. Maybe some of them just haven't been made to think about it like that, but are they adults who we expect to think about how things actually affect other people, or are they kids who can't ever have cold water thrown on the idea of Sadist Claus?
Posted by: JBlilie
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October 14, 2009 2:02 PM
@31: "Well my $0.02 is that it was a waste of time if his grandma is a strong believer."
Never a waste of time: It allowed him to distill his thoughts and get them down straight AND face up to a difficult family situation. These are the very opposite of a aste time, IMHO.
Posted by: Abdul Alhazred
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October 14, 2009 2:03 PM
I don't even say their heart is in the right place, only that their behavior logically follows their premises.Posted by: Abdul Alhazred
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October 14, 2009 2:04 PM
I could say the same about Andrea Yates.
Posted by: Brian
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October 14, 2009 2:05 PM
"For a grandma"?? Not everyone goes senile in their old age, you know. The letter mentions that she has a Masters degree in biology -- she can probably hack the jargon. At least I'd be willing to give her the benefit of a doubt.
Posted by: nastasie
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October 14, 2009 2:05 PM
Aw, that was a lovely letter! I agree that it's probably as much for Josh himself as it is from his grandmother. I hope that she gets something out of it, even if it's just peace of mind about agreeing to disagree with her son.
I have to take the opportunity to gush about how awesome my maternal grandmother was. She was the one who pretty much raised my cousin and I. She was nominally a Catholic, was a fan of certain saints - she liked to keep a piece of bread in the sugar bowl for St. Anthony, and that invariably made me laugh. She would laugh too, and go "You don't believe it, eh? Well, it works!", and leave it at that. She didn't go to church regularly and whatever her superstitions were, they never played an important part in her life. I became an atheist when I was about 12, and, being a teenager, I liked to make a huge deal about it when my aunts and uncles brought it up, but Granny just seemed annoyed that all that talking was getting in the way of her TV programs.
She was an amazing person, who went through so many tragedies in her life - became a widow with three small children, lost a daughter, lost a grandchild - and never became bitter, never needed to lean on religion as a crutch. I think she was just that emotionally healthy that she could accept these things graciously and hold on to what was important to her, i.e., love and friendship.
For instance, when my cousin was 15, he came out to his parents and the situation with them became unbearable. My grandmother took him in without question and he came to live with us. He ended up folding under the pressure and getting married to a woman when he was 19. Years later, when he came out again and this time moved in with his boyfriend, the family was all up in arms about it. I asked her if she was going with me to their house-warming, and she said, "Of course I am. He's my grandson." His parents, who had cut him off completely, were put to shame by her calm, easy acceptance. I like to think that I helped talk them out of the crazy, but I'm pretty sure her example was the deciding factor. Nowadays my cousin is happily married to a man, and his parents go with them to the Gay Pride parade.
I guess this story isn't really relevant to the topic. It's just that she died about a year ago, and since we're talking about Grannies, I just automatically went into Granny-gushing mode. Anyway, she lived long enough to see my daughter declare herself an atheist, also at age 12, and her only comment was an amused "Well, the apple never falls far from the tree, now does it?"
Posted by: nastasie
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October 14, 2009 2:08 PM
Ugh, I meant to say "I agree that it's probably as much for Josh himself as it is *for* his grandmother. I hope that she gets something out of it, even if it's just peace of mind about agreeing to disagree with her *grandson*."
Preview is my friend, I know.
Posted by: JBlilie
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October 14, 2009 2:11 PM
Josh, (jsullivan.myopenid.com @45)
I tip my hat to you. Excellent work, wonderful letter. Very carefully doen to convey your love for your grandma. Thanks for sharing it.
Carry on with your quest for the truth, you're well on your way!
All the best, JB
Posted by: Isherwood
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October 14, 2009 2:12 PM
Very nicely done! I'm envious that Josh has a grandmother he considers intelligent enough to absorb that. My grandmother is a bigot and not very bright. She's actually quite difficult to be around even outside religious discussion.
No, I haven't told her. It seems too much like mocking a mentally handicapped person.
Posted by: JBlilie
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October 14, 2009 2:14 PM
SantaCruzOM @53:
Your thoughts are pretty much identical to mine reagrding my wonderful mother. And I'm doing the same towards her. And it just feels like the best thing I can do, given what she's done for me. To confront her would seem insufferably self-indulgent to me.
Posted by: JBlilie
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October 14, 2009 2:20 PM
GelnD @66
"Frankly, as a piece of persuasion, I'm not impressed by Josh's letter"
I don't think it was intended to persuade his grandma. Seems to me his intent was simply to explain himself to her.
Posted by: James Sweet
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October 14, 2009 2:21 PM
FWIW, my reaction to the "Grandma Gambit" (and I have no living grandparents, so for me it's really the Elderly Mormon Parents Gambit, but same concept) is that I have decided to avoid direct actions that would draw attention to my atheism, but to do nothing to prevent them from being exposed to it and not to lie under any circumstances.
It's actually worked quite well for the most part. They know what I believe, but they also know that they don't really have to deal with it if they don't want to... and that if they try to push their beliefs on me, that it will get very unpleasant for them very quickly.
Posted by: mothwentbad
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October 14, 2009 2:22 PM
# 70 -
It follows from the premises, but if they really thought about it, their delivery wouldn't be so syrupy. They'd freely admit the tyranny and sadism of their god, and beg for grandma to submit and worship while there's still time for the appeasement, flattery, and abject surrender he craves.
Of course, there are uncountably many other possible gods with no evidence for them who might have exactly the opposite torture policy for all we know, so I don't know how they could maintain that they're so sure of theirs in the first place.
Posted by: lose_the_woo
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October 14, 2009 2:26 PM
Clearly obvious points. Perhaps I can better flesh out the intent of my comment by adding: I wonder how long ago she achieved that Masters; If her bio/science background is so solid, why does she rely on fundy logic; I meant grandma to imply more than just years - this is grandma - matriarch of the family.
The sciency/citation stuff IMO just felt a bit too authority-leaning coming from a grandson to a grandma (with a Masters).
I think your general point stands though. I'll make an effort to do better expressing my opinions next time.
Posted by: Andreas Johansson
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October 14, 2009 2:32 PM
I realize I don't know whether my paternal grandmother is a theist or not; I cannot recall the subject ever coming up. She did have a pastor officiating at grandfather's funeral but that might have been for my father's sake (he's a Christian) or simply for tradition's.
As for my maternal grandmother, she's, I presume, still a Christian, but I have no idea how she'd react to hearing I'm not, or whether she knows it, and I'm unlikely to learn because we are not in the habit of talking with one another. The relevant bridges, principally between my grandfather (her husband) and my mother (her daughter) were burnt long ago, and I've never been close to her.
Posted by: Nebula99
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October 14, 2009 2:50 PM
My family is nearly all non-religious and fine with my lack of belief, though some of them (especially the older generations) are more like deists or agnostics in that they only give lip service to some sort of higher power. My problem is much more minor in that my parents are accomodationists and buy into the popular taboo on criticizing belief. So I just remember to stay civil and largely keep my atheism on the Intertubes. I agree with the people on here who avoid criticizing their religious relatives to avoid family tension and because they think it will be futile--feel free to pick your battles and do your part for reason without messing up your family. Also, while any individual conversation may be futile, remember that the conversation in the public sphere can help the undecideds and the children who don't have opinions yet make informed decisions.
Posted by: Marley Fitz
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October 14, 2009 3:26 PM
My grandmother is 95. She tells me she is "ready to go". She is a devout Catholic and is certain that, when she dies, she will be joining her husband and daughter for eternity.
I've never asked her if, when she finally sees her daughter,will it be young,healthy and vibrant daughter, or the daughter ravaged by the cancer that killed her at age 47.
I think it would be incredibly selfish of me to inform her that EVERYTHING she believes about god/religion is bullshit. Why would I do such a thing? What would it accomplish?
Just my opinion, but I think that really old people, terminally ill people and those with terminally ill children get a pass.
Let 'em believe whatever makes them feel better.
(I save the religion is bullshit conversations for my siblings when they invite me to their kid's first communion or when my sibs send me chain emails about angels et al.)
Posted by: aratina cage
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October 14, 2009 3:56 PM
Marley Fritz, that is the point. We don't take atheism into the hospital rooms of the terminally ill or into your grandma's kitchen, but we are characterized as doing so by the credulous who want to silence New Atheists.
Posted by: jjr1993p2
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October 14, 2009 4:21 PM
My grandmothers never knew of my atheism and I never saw any reason to bring it up. I don't think my paternal grandfather was very religious; my maternal grandpa probably was, but I barely knew him before he died. I had a Great Aunt (paternal grandmother's sister) who was most likely a closet atheist; she never went to church, viewed most Xtians around her as hypocrites, and she had a lifelong male partner whom she loved but never married; she'd been divorced once (quite a scandal at the time) and I don't think she ever wanted to marry again. She was ornery and defiant to the end, and I loved her very much. My maternal grandmother was very fire & brimstone religious, but NONE of her children followed her brand of Xtianity, all adopted more liberal faiths. My paternal grandmother was very religious. What makes her case especially sad to me was that she was probably smart enough to go to college, but settled for being a simple farmer's wife; I do think she ultimately had a happy life, but I think she could've done so much more for herself had she grown up in a society that valued the education of women more than it did. My Dad had a very negative reaction to the Presbyterian church he was raised in and devoted his life to being a science teacher.
Our family talk was mercifully free of any God-talk. My maternal grandmother did used to make her children attend church with her when they visited, but eventually mellowed and gave up. The most she ever did was complain to her youngest daughter (who still lived in town) that she wasn't sending her son to the "right" church (i.e. her church), but my Aunt politely rebuffed this (that's between my son and me, momma).
On my Dad's side, I have an Cousin who's old enough to be my Uncle, and he's a Buddhist and an aging hippie.
Unfortunately with age, though, nearly all of my aunts and uncles have become ueber-religious...almost as much as my late maternal grandmother. My Dad's brother is moderately religious and a Scottish Rite Mason, but never talks about any of that. As for the cousins more closer my age, I have no idea what their religious beliefs are, if any.
Posted by: Nebula99
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October 14, 2009 4:34 PM
Hearing these stories, I feel very grateful to my parents for raising me godless. I remember reading that the earth was 4.6 billion years old in one of my first science-for-first-graders books, having Mom explain evolution to me over dinner, and thinking at about age eight that "Things must have been simpler way back when people really /believed/ in their religions and could just pray and make sacrifices and think things would get better." I was so sheltered...
Posted by: davem
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October 14, 2009 4:41 PM
@techskeptic #26
Wow! Those two grandmas rock!
Posted by: maxamillion
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October 14, 2009 5:52 PM
I couldn't get past the first page of Grandma's screed. Ray Comforts grandma must have been like this.
Posted by: Loki
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October 14, 2009 6:17 PM
My grandmother decided to press the issue with me multiple times after I asked her to drop her copious references to god, jesus, and her general attitude that her lord is doing all these wonderful things in my life.
And then she continued, so I've fired back with a salvo of rational shells and a few runs of carpet bombing with logic. She doesn't give me quite as much woo nowadays and our relationship is fine, though its one of those loving relationships where she can give me the finger when I win in poker. I'm looking forward to being a strident old man.
Posted by: speedweasel
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October 14, 2009 9:45 PM
Deen said:
Agreed. For much the same reason I’m fine with a heroin addict having their last hit on their deathbed. If it harms no one else and it makes them comfortable, it’s fine with me.
What I’m not going to do is tolerate the idea of giving ‘heroin to children’ as some kind of default social policy, integral to the workings of our society and government.
Posted by: Kel, OM
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October 14, 2009 10:45 PM
Sastra's post at #12 was excellent.
As for myself, I'm part of a large family and there's no strict religion on either side (though my Dad's side is more traditional Christian) - I've never found speaking out an issue, honestly I think it says something when you can actually talk on issues such as this. There's not much more disrespectful than keeping something that is meant to be dear to your heart a dirty little secret.
Posted by: Pygmy Loris
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October 14, 2009 11:20 PM
This is the reason I can't stand liberal "Christians" who prattle on about the importance of faith and their religion. Either they really do believe in salvation through faith and they're sitting around doing nothing while the heathens damn themselves or they don't really believe in the central doctrine of their faith. Either way, they bug the crap out of me. If you're a good person and you sincerely believe I'm going to hell, you shouldn't be willing to let me go along my merry way. That would make you bad. If you don't really believe the only way to heaven is through faith in Jesus, then you're not a Christian. If the latter call themselves Christian, then what exactly does it mean.
However, I do think that being exposed to good people who aren't Christian and don't want to be Christian is terribly important to opening the minds of Christians and one of the main reasons people adopt the more liberal "Chritianity." My own personal deconversion from Southern Baptist was incremental and realizing that there were lots of good people who were going to suffer for eternity simply because they didn't share my beliefs if what I'd been taught was true was one of the first things that made me question my religion.
On the topic of grandmas, it would have broken my grandmother's heart if I had told her I was an atheist. For me, it never came up because I was still a theist (though not Christian) when she passed away. My other grandmother and grandfather would be horrified and I just don't think burdening them with worry for my soul during their eighties is worth it. When they pass away, though, I'm going to announce to my cousins that I think religion is a crock of shit and I'm an atheist. Hopefully they'll think back on all the times they've said atheists are bad people and shouldn't be Americans and be ashamed of themselves. OTOH, they'll probably just quit talking to me. It'll be interesting either way.
Posted by: Kitty
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October 15, 2009 4:39 AM
I didn't know any of my grandparents as I was adopted by elderly parents.
My father was an atheist and as I sat with him as he died he squeezed my hand and managed a smile. He didn't need to think he'd be going to a better place he knew he was worm food and was fine with that. His funeral was not religious.
My mother was a Methodist and firmly believed she would be re-united with the love of her life after death. No argument would shake her belief that he was a very good man (he was) and so he had gone to heaven.
As for my declaration as a teenager that I was firmly in the atheist camp, it never bothered her. She applied the same (il)logical approach that I was a good person and we'd meet again after death.
To her, the final arbiter was God and he made the decision about who had lived a good life. My gay cousin (this was early 1960s so illegal) told my parents, not his own, and received love and support.
I loved this sweet lady all the more for it. She accepted people for who they were rather than if they followed any particular dogma and tried to live her life according to the simple principles of love one another, do to others as you would be done by and don't judge others. She never evangelised or wore her religion on her sleeve.
What a pity so many Christians, particularly in America it would seem, have lost sight of this, the simple core of their religion. My mother would not have recognised their version of Christianity as it has no place for acceptance of anyone outside of their narrow dogma and compassion has shrivelled and died.
Posted by: Aetre
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October 15, 2009 8:08 AM
My one living grandmother has alzheimers, but I've had to deal with my parents directly. They basically cornered my fiancee and I about not believing in God. Mom thought we'd been influenced by Wiccans or some such and was teary and crazy. Dad was employing every missionary tactic he could think of, up to and including recommending St. Augustine's "Confessions." He managed to be extremely condescending while guilt-tripping and, at the end, crying. Oh, and he said he wouldn't come to our wedding, too. He has since taken that part back, but only "to be there to support your mother."
*sigh*
Respect to Josh; well done with the letter.
Posted by: AC Skeptic
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October 15, 2009 12:27 PM
My wife and I recently deconverted. Both sides of our family are religious. If my in-laws or their siblings ever learn of this then there will be a major reckoning. I'm actually fearful of the day. Most members of my family are pretty devout and there would be some serious disappointment if they learn; but our relationship would continue. We live far enough apart that it is just easier to keep it to ourselves for now. Eventually though one of my two children is going to say something, especially around their cousins who are all growing up fundie. I have spent a little time writing out the reasons for my decoverstion. Mostly it is just an exercise for myself, but I want it available on the fretfell down that the axe falls. I express my thoughts much better in writing then in person.
Posted by: JBlilie
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October 15, 2009 2:57 PM
"I have spent a little time writing out the reasons for my decoverstion. Mostly it is just an exercise for myself, but I want it available on the fretfell down that the axe falls. I express my thoughts much better in writing then in person."
AC Skeptic @96: I've done this as well, continuing to expand and refine it over the last few years. It's been an excellent exercise for myself and it provides useful chunks for online discussions or letters to politicians, etc.
Posted by: James | October 17, 2009 2:35 AM
Here's the thing: what if you care enough about your octogenarian parents not to want to inflict visions of yourself burning in eternal torture on them, but you don't really care enough about them to bother letting them know anything about your real life or beliefs?
Is that still cowardice? They'll die eventually, probably fairly happily. I'm not trying to save their souls by changing their minds about their ludicrous beliefs, and I'm fairly certain it couldn't be done anyway. The stakes aren't that high for me, because y'know, they don't really have "souls." But the stakes are really high for them. I wouldn't say things to a paranoid schizophrenic that would reinforce his condition, so why would I tell my parents news that would make their delusion even more painful to them?
Am I being a bad atheist if I just wait my parents out?
Posted by: Ray Moscow
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October 17, 2009 3:29 AM
@James, #98:
I just don't talk religion much with my mom, who is still very much a Christian. There's nothing much to be gained by it, IMO.
On the other hand, I don't pretend to be religious for her sake, either. I think that would be going too far to please a parent (or anyone else).
Posted by: Zak | November 1, 2009 4:39 PM
In my case I feel there is a lot to gain from it if I can ever convince her. She is so convinced she needs to give her church money (the last check was$2500) that she is too strained to get the new stove, fridge, microwave and washing machine she so desperately needs.
My stepfather does not help matters since his father was a preacher, his middle brother builds churches and his youngest brother runs one of those scary evangelical churches.