…and this is a 
I'm feeling a bit nauseous right now. I'm not sure whether I'm coming down with the flu, or whether it was merely the monthly arrival of answers update, the newsletter from Answers in Genesis, which is mainly a catalog selling garish lies.
Anyway, the reason I'm writing this instead of either puking into the ceramic shrine or tossing the rag into the trash is that Ken Ham has pulled his usual stunt of pulling a quote from some godless critic of his "museum" and wrapping a pious sermon around it, without attribution or linkage. In this case, the quote is from someone Ham refers to only as "a secular humanist" or "this secularist", and here it is:
For me, the most frightening part was the children's section. It was at this moment that I learned the deepest lesson of my visit to the Museum: It is in the minds and hearts of our children that the battle will be fought; and it is they who will suffer the most because of this.
Helpful fellow that I am, I will give the citation the neglectful fraud 'forgot' to make. The quote comes from Patrick of Ann Arbor, Michigan. Congratulations, Patrick! You know you're doing good when the creationists start using your words in their fundraising!
Everyone should read the rest of his article on the Creation "Museum", too — it's the criticism Ken Ham doesn't want anyone to see, after all.
Now I have to go throw this ugly mag away, and hope my symptoms disappear.
Politics
Comments
Posted by: llewelly | November 9, 2009 12:33 PM
You should mail the page containing the quote from Patrick to him, so he can frame it.
Posted by: Kobra | November 9, 2009 12:34 PM
Ken "Con Artist" Ham would lift words from a source without citation or attribution? I'm speechless.
Posted by: amstrad | November 9, 2009 12:37 PM
You're feeling like you cause nausea?
Or are you feeling nauseated?
Posted by: Orakio | November 9, 2009 12:40 PM
At least you know what ever cdesigned sickness you got from handling it will still respond to antibiotics the next time you get the newsletter.
Posted by: Sastra
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November 9, 2009 12:41 PM
Of course they didn't provide any information on where the quote came from: had they done so, one of their readers might have looked it up, and understood where the writer was coming from. Very good essay.
Every now and then someone wonders why neurology doesn't seem to get the same outraged denial and public attention as evolution. All things considered, mind-body substance dualism is more critical to all forms of theism, and spirituality, than the Argument from Design.
Kids. I think that the reason advances in understanding the material basis of mind is flying under the radar has to do with kids. Children aren't being taught neurology in any detail, and sloppy "folk" theories of mind fall easily into thinking of the brain as being like a radio, getting its input from another, invisible realm.
Going after children is a big panic button for most people. The religious of course think of science as indoctrination, because that's how they see all learning. Authorities tell you things, and you choose to believe them.
Posted by: Valdyr | November 9, 2009 12:42 PM
From Patrick's page:
"The gift shop was enormous, full of books, DVDs, tee shirts, and toys; one tee shirts attacked the Darwin Fish, saying "Legs that mock have knees that will bend.""
Wow... anyone else find that extremely creepy? I interpret it as "Eventually we'll force you into subjugation."
Posted by: Glen Davidson
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November 9, 2009 12:43 PM
How can kids be convinced that they're depraved because of some mythical "sin" if you don't lie to them?
Come on, Ham's doing god's work by spreading god's lies.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: HealthPhysicist | November 9, 2009 12:47 PM
Sadly, Mr. Ham is in Memphis, with his "Answers For Darwin" pseudo-conference:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/outreach/event/6398/?Event_ID=6398
Posted by: Ross Olson | November 9, 2009 12:50 PM
Thank you, Dr. Myers, for agreeing to debate Dr. Jerry Bergman, November 16, 7:30 pm, at the St. Paul Student Center, North Star Ballroom, University of Minnesota,St. Paul Campus, on the topic of "Should Intelligent Design Be Taught in the Schools?" Thank you also for agreeing to a courteous, intellectual discussion without person attacks. Co-sponsors Campus Atheists, Skeptics and Humanists CASH), Christian Student Fellowship (CSF) and Twin Cities Creation Science Association (TCCSA) look to this as a model of academic freedom and competition of ideas for inquiring minds. May the better ideas win. The agreement can be viewed at http://tccsa.tc/notices/debate_rules.pdf and more information on the event at http://www.tccsa.tc .
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | November 9, 2009 12:57 PM
The better ideas have already won. Check your local University's library.
Posted by: vanharris
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November 9, 2009 1:01 PM
He's a scrofulous sciolistic scumbag.
Posted by: co | November 9, 2009 1:02 PM
From Ross Olson's website (just so we know what kind of mind we're dealing with):
http://www.rossolson.org/creation/parable.html
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | November 9, 2009 1:04 PM
Or this
http://www.rossolson.org/homosexuality/
Actually I can say that those places are the 100% wrong places to "understand homosexuality", whatever that means.
Posted by: Ross Olson | November 9, 2009 1:48 PM
The reason I congratulated Dr. Myers on the courage to agree to a courteous intellectual debate without personal attacks is that it is so foreign to the blogosphere that he risks losing credibility with some followers. I still believe that there are people who are willing and able to interact with ideas, even those ideas identified by political correctness as unworthy of the light of day. Unless you are omniscient, you need to consider that there might be something left to learn. I am willing to discuss. In fact I have even changed my ideas on various topics.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | November 9, 2009 1:58 PM
Is there a problem pointing out what your website says? You link to it right here on your name.
The problem is I still see no new ideas, just rehashing the same Creationist canards that have been destroyed ad nauseum. The reason they have been identified as unworthy is because they aren't. They've been shown to be nothing more that theology, and bad theology at that. Renaming it "Intelligent Design" and then trying to science it up doesn't change the fact that it's just rebranded creationism and is at it's core anti-scientific.
I'm very willing to admit there is always more to learn, the problem is there is nothing new coming from the
CreationistIntelligent Design crowd. No science, no working theory, no nothing. Just rehashed creationist arguments that would remain dead and buried if the ID folks would stop digging them up and dressing them in a new suit.Posted by: Badger3k | November 9, 2009 2:13 PM
Well, their god rose from the dead, which would mean they have hope that their ideas can do so as well.
Posted by: Fez | November 9, 2009 2:24 PM
Mmmmkay...[clickety-click]
IT IS ALSO INTERESTING HOW ONE CAN MAKE PRESENT-TENSE STATEMENTS REGARDING FUTURE EVENTS. /me turns the volume back down to 3
Posted by: MK | November 9, 2009 2:31 PM
Just out of interest, do you receive the Answers Update publication in electronic or paper form, and if it's the latter, is the paper thin but absorbent?
Posted by: raven | November 9, 2009 2:40 PM
Creepy yes, appalling yes, surprising no. Why in the hell do you think they are called Death Cultists and Christofascists? Theocracats have no interest in democracy by definition and no interest in your well being or staying alive, especially if you get in the way.
Xianity has been sliding downhill for a long time. Since they lost one of their main tools. The power of the gun, noose, stake, heavy artillery, tanks, and fighter planes. They can no longer kill whoever they like for any reason they want.
It doesn't prevent them from getting nostalgic for the good old days and hoping for miracles. Like god giving them a few tens of billions of dollars worth of heavy weapons to take care of those mean old Darwinists.
No point in trying to convert heretics and apostates when you can simply kill them.
Posted by: raven | November 9, 2009 2:57 PM
This is happening more and more. Fundie xian cultists screaming persecution. Expelled movie knockoff.
Fundie persecution = "Inability to use force to make people do what we want them to."
Between 1-2 million people leave xianity in the USA every year. 7 out of 10 of their kids stop going to church. This isn't persecution, it is people realizing that their survival and well being depends on getting away from toxic religion.
Posted by: Janine The Ineffable, OM | November 9, 2009 2:57 PM
You have used a personal attack to praise someone for not engaging in a personal attack. Also, the only way PZ Myers would lose credibility is if he were to engage in falsehoods. PZ Myers is admired because of his ability to point out the idiocy of ID.
ID is not ridiculed because it is not politically correct. It is ridiculed because it is wrong down to it's very foundation. Also, it is rather pathetic that you are trying to paint this as a political cause.
There are always new things to learn. But not from the position you are coming from.
Somehow I doubt this. You are coming from a position that knowledge is something that is revealed from a higher power, that the truth is handed from above. You are dealing with people who know that our pools of knowledge is ever changing and always to be debated. I do not see you changing your beliefs. I see you as trying to place people in your mental straitjacket.
Posted by: Sili
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November 9, 2009 2:58 PM
I'd imagine it's the thought of all the poor, innocent piglets, that's making you sick to your stomach.
Why doesn't Ken Ham step forward to deny or confirm the rumours that he's spending a significant amount of his $20M from the museum to procure piglets for him to rape? It's a simple question after all.
Posted by: raven | November 9, 2009 3:06 PM
What followers? People agreeing with PZ Myers doesn't make them his followers. Most of the No Religious follow the number 0 and that is all they have in common.
BTW Ross, the number of people that roughly agree with PZ Myers about religion in the USA runs around 20% of the population. That is 60 million people. While he might be flattered and delighted to have 60 million followers, the actual number is likely to be far lower. OTOH, as one who believes in Heliocentrism, my "followers" number around 240 million Americans.
Posted by: raven | November 9, 2009 3:09 PM
Doubt that very much. Creationists are religious fanatics who allow cult presuppostions to rule their minds.
He probably means that since fundie death cultists haven't been able to take over the USA and destroy it, that they must be undergoing persecution. Big change there allright.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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November 9, 2009 3:19 PM
Yawn, another idjit creobot, unable to show physical evidence for his imaginary deity, and that his babble isn't a book of mythology/fiction, thinks there can be a serious intellectual discussion? There is no serious discussion when one side has evidence, and the other side has delusions. And Mr. Olson, your side has the delusions since you don't have scientific evidence. Only religious belief, which is worthless in a scientific discussion. You erroneously seem to think that science can be trumped by philosophy. Philosophy without evidence (there's that nasty word again) is sophistry. All theology is sophistry. Science is evidence based, and is only refuted by more science. When your side actually do some real science, let us know. After all, if evolution is proved to be wrong, there is a Nobel prize waiting for the person who does so. But it must go through science for that to happen.
Posted by: Rebelest | November 9, 2009 4:03 PM
Ol' Kenny boy is in Memphis, Tn. spreading his lies at Faith Baptist Church:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/outreach/event/6398/?Event_ID=6398
I plan on attending the 6 pm and 7:30pm lying sessions.
Posted by: Paul Lundgren | November 9, 2009 4:30 PM
The sad thing is, this is exactly the same argument the haters used to kill gay marriage in Maine. It's amazing how they use the children to scare the faithful.Posted by: Jennifurret | November 9, 2009 4:38 PM
Ken Ham has mentioned me twice in his blog...and by mentioned, I mean he was talking about me and my presentation on the Creation Museum, yet never said my name or the name of my group or the name of my blog. Sadness.
Posted by: Phodopus
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November 9, 2009 4:55 PM
Anyone read that "Parable?". It is so efficient in its simplicity, an idiot could have devised it.
Posted by: IaMoL | November 9, 2009 7:15 PM
Isn't it interesting that Ross Olson chose this thread to do his "you signed an agreement and can't get out of our 'debate', so there!"
Saw his website; TSTKHS all over it.It must be consoling to live in a fairy land delusion.
Posted by: Ticker | November 9, 2009 7:36 PM
Re #17:
I LIKE HAVING THE VOLUME UP TO 11. IT HELPS KEEP MY MIND CLEAR OF DOUBT, FEAR AND COMPASSION. THESE THINGS ONLY GET IN THE WAY WHEN I'M TRYING TO TELL PEOPLE TO SHUT UP AND OBEY.
For the humor-impaired dolts out there: the above paragraph was sarcasm. If you're not a humor-impaired dolt, I apologize to you for ruining this post with a disclaimer.
Posted by: PoxyHowzes | November 9, 2009 9:17 PM
Notice that the graphic for this "courteous intellectual debate without personal attacks" is a pair of boxers (men, not dogs) going at it? I take a couple of lessons therefrom: (1) the simile is apt: boxing often demonstrably lowers the intellect; presumably fighting on behalf of creationism does the same. (2) The image and the snarkastic remark about PZ's killing careers of DD's suggests that TCCSA members expect all the courtesy and intellect and and lack of ad hominums to be on PZ's side, not theirs.
And I really think that Ol' Rossy has changed some ideas: I've no doubt that he believed in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy in the days before he converted to monofairyism.
I humbly suggest a tactic for PZ: At his first opportunity to get up and "debate," he should state unequivocally: "Just as prayer is taught in schools, so should creationism be taught" and then sit down.
Posted by: atomjack
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November 9, 2009 10:28 PM
PZ, maybe that "Answers" rag (if it is indeed a paper magazine) can be offered up as wholly smoke starting your fireplace, if you have one. At least that will be one copy made useful.
Posted by: bastion of sass | November 9, 2009 11:29 PM
I don't understand why this is news. From Jesus Camp to vacation bible schools and Sunday schools, and religious schools or religion-oriented home schooling, religion is all about indoctrinating children before they have enough information about how the world really works, and before they've developed critical thinking skills.
Doesn't always work so well, of course. Some of us, even as kids, listened and thought, "That doesn't make any sense."
And others, who accepted that they were taught by those who we presumed knew what was true, eventually stopped believing in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and god.
Posted by: Rorschach | November 10, 2009 3:14 AM
PZ, that debate is a mistake. Shouldn't be giving the lying scumbags a platform.
As to this Olson creep, I just read his writings on chastity on his website with interest( Summary :It's good for you).Dont read the page on homosexuality if you have a queasy stomach or are a decent human being.
Posted by: Rebelest | November 10, 2009 3:44 AM
So, I attended the 6 pm and 7:30 pm "sessions" of "Answers for Darwin" lecture series which is being presented in hundreds of churches across the U.S. by the Christian con man Ken Ham, which showed tonight in Memphis, Tn at the Faith Baptist Church.
Now, living in Memphis, Tn., surely one of the top five of the dozens of cities across the South and Midwest that vie for the title of "Buckle of the Bible Belt," and literally hundreds of churches calling said dear city their home, I had never even heard of Faith Baptist Church. How it has escaped my notice is simply a fact of it being one among so many despite the fact that it is a quite large church. I'm guessing the auditorium or whatever they call it seated about 1,000 +/- 200. Two large screen monitors(8'x10') on each side of the stage were used for Ham's power point enhanced presentation, which was very slick.
Now, here comes the bad news, there were 500+ people who attended these last sessions on a Monday night in one city in the backwaters of America. These were the last of eight lectures over two days, plus they must have had church and Sunday school in there also...I would think these people would have been Jesused out by 6p on Monday night but nooo, they were there in force with lots of children in tow. There were at least ten children and/or teenagers directly in front of me and I noticed that most of them and many, many people were taking notes as was I...not that I took many notes since I considered it to be a sermon or the kind of preachy stuff that's not worth noting since its all biblical exegesis. The very repetitive gist of it was that most of the Christian churches and most of the Christian schools and seminaries are using or teaching an Acts 2 approach to evangelism in an Acts 17 culture. Hmmm? You say. It's the difference in the method they should use to preach the goshpul to "the Jews"(Hams nomenclature[Hn]), who already have a monotheistic creator deity(erm, "God" I think they call it) based belief system and the method they should use to preach it to "the Greeks"Hn who have a pantheon (not his word) of deities. American culture is a Greek culture, pagan. Pay Gun and Greek! Pay gun and Greek! He said over and over. You can't go to a pagan/Greek culture and expect to teach them the goshpul message 'cause how ya gonna do that when you're not already in a culture that believes in one creator deity and the creation story ala Genesis that Christianity entails...and that's where Ken Ham comes in or why Ken Ham and AIG has all the answers and all of the right products in the form of books, magazines and DVDs that anyone could need to brainwash themselves and their children. Lots of children's books and DVDs. Combo packs. The Teen/Adult Library Pack was a mere $199 and if you bought that and the whatever the other thing was AIG would throw in the $70 Creation Museum DVD Collection (6 DVDs) for FREE! That was all part of the presentation. I learned more about the books and DVDs and such that Ken Ham and AIG have for sale than anything else I learned from him. Hey! and don't forget Christmas is coming up and all of these great AIG products would make great and lasting gifts. Crass commercialism! Vipers! and Moneychangers!
Well, anyway, the title of the 6 pm session was "How to Reach the Secular World with the Gospel" and there I was, most likely, the only "secular person" there in a coliseum full of happy, clappy, amen spouting sheep and Mr. Ham didn't even faze me with his bullshit story about the unquestionable authority of "God's Word" versus the fallible word of the "Men of Science" who are wrong whenever they contradict the Bible! In the long run, not very good news for Kenny boy but from what I witnessed there is still plenty of money to be made.
Posted by: Roger Stanyard | November 10, 2009 9:18 AM
I dunno who Ross Olson is but here in the UK, Hampshire County Council blocks public access (in its libraries) to his web pages on the grounds that they are pornographic.
Posted by: raven | November 10, 2009 10:37 AM
Hmmm, looks like we are getting down to the bottom line. How much of Ham's spiel is simply about making money for him? I know he gets paid very well.
The materials and the prices are a total ripoff. You can get all that material off the net for virtually free. How long does it take to download "goddidit".
Posted by: Trentt Cramer | November 10, 2009 3:17 PM
Dr Myers,
Let me know if you want to stop by Northern Sun in Minneapolis and pick up a darwin fish t-shirt (gratis) to wear during your debate on Nov 16th in St Paul.
Posted by: Patrick Julius | November 11, 2009 9:09 PM
Yes, I am *the* Patrick Julius of Ann Arbor Michigan (wow, it feels quite an honor to be able to say that). I am tremendously honored that Ken Ham would use my words as exemplary of secular humanist thought.
Please do tell me how I can find a copy of Ken Ham's article; I would indeed like to frame it. I can put it next to the Ann Arbor News that featured my book on relativity.
Posted by: baju
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February 1, 2010 1:50 PM
I still believe that there are people who are willing and able to interact with ideas