Pharyngula

Posted by: Lynna | November 14, 2009 6:17 PM

You promised spankings for everyone! And then the good guys left and there were spankings for no one! Shit!

Posted by: Alan B | November 14, 2009 6:17 PM

I can resist anything except temptation.

Posted by: Lynna | November 14, 2009 6:21 PM

'Tis Himself, you are seriously confused. First the spanking and then the oral sex. Sheesh.

Posted by: bastion of sass | November 14, 2009 6:26 PM

Owlmirror wrote:

As I was trying to say, before I was interrupted...

Still working on my version.

I'm hearing it played on a banjo and harmonica. I have two harmonicas, but alas, no banjo.

I have do an accordion, piano, electronic keyboard, cello, two recorders, a mouth harp (maybe we could use that; that'll add some twang!), and a whole passel of kazoos.

Posted by: Ctenotrish | November 14, 2009 6:30 PM

*that'll* teach me to leave these threads! I missed out on spankings AND oral sex? Shoot.

Posted by: bastion of sass | November 14, 2009 6:33 PM

I've been waitin' and waitin' at the spanking couch...

Posted by: Feynmaniac | November 14, 2009 6:35 PM

Always Look On The Bright Side of Life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | November 14, 2009 6:39 PM

At some point is the past I joked about being an ERV/David shipper, but I think I have to change my allegiance to Jadehawk/David.

Posted by: Lynna | November 14, 2009 6:47 PM

Someone linked to Loudon Wainwright 3, and one of the related videos was this: I Wish I Was A Lesbian. Just to get that in.

Owlmirror @7: thanks for that link. Great video, good campy version of music style. :-)
("Oh, for God's sake.")

Posted by: Lynna | November 14, 2009 6:55 PM

Okay, so far we have spanking, oral sex, bacon, lesbians, and SantaGod. Now for the Mormons:

Does the earth conceive? It does, and it brings forth. If it did not, why do you go and put your wheat into the ground? Does it not conceive it? But it does not conceive except you put it there. It conceives and brings forth, and you and I live, both for food and for clothing, silks and satins. What! satin grow? Yes. What produces it? The silkworm produces it. Does the silkworm produce except it conceives? No, it eats of the mulberry tree. Where does the mulberry tree come from? It comes from the earth. Where did the earth come from? From its parent earths.
     Author: Heber C. Kimball; Source: Journal Of Discourses; Volume: 6; Chapter: 1; Page: 36

Posted by: bastion of sass | November 14, 2009 6:59 PM

OK. Here's my country version of Sphere Coupler's birthday night from hell:

Sphere Coupler's Birthday Blues

I remember a birthday,
Only a broke-down Wildcat fer comp’ny,
Ran on batt’ry juice 'til it died,
On a lonely country road,
With nobody for miles.
Half a bottle of whiskey,
One cigar,
A dead battery,
So no tunes,
‘Twas hotter’n hell!

Chorus:
I remember a birthday,
Fondly? With regret?
Even now, not real sure.
Do I want to remember?
Or want to forget?
That awful hellish day.
Actually thought it was hell!

Why I was travlin’ alone,
On a deserted country back-road,
In that broke-down ol' Wildcat
In the heat of the day,
I'll never tell.
You can dream up a story,
Might be bett’n mine.
Per’aps ‘twas on the way,
To meet a one-time lover,
Who was leavin’ the country,
Ne’er to be seen again,
Love lost,
That would be sad eh?
I'll leave that up to you.
Did I tell ya,
'Twas hotter’n hell?

Chorus:
I remember a birthday,
Fondly, or with regret,
Even now, not real sure.
Do I want to remember?
Or want to forget?
That awful hellish day.
Actually thought it was hell!

But the sun went down,
An' the highway county patrol found me,
An' once I convinced him I was OK,
He called for some help.
Ev’n now, I’m not sure
I'm OK,
Or it was help that I wanted,
'Twas already too late,
On my birthday in hell.

Chorus:
I remember a birthday,
Fondly, or with regret,
A bit a both?
I now know the answer
Do I want to remember?
Or want to forget?
That awful hellish day.
When I thought it was hell!

Posted by: Rorschach | November 14, 2009 7:25 PM

Tis Himself, you are seriously confused. First the spanking and then the oral sex. Sheesh.

I second that. I mean, I've heard that's how you do it.Or read it somewhere.Read, I think.Pretty sure.

At this point, maybe we should open a chatroom. :P

There is this obscure pharyngula IRC channel, I've been there once or twice, never recognized anyone, so haven't tried for a long time.

Posted by: Lynna | November 14, 2009 7:42 PM

Oh, no, no, no. We can't end the endless thread. We'd lose so much silly history and tradition and friggin' strangely mesmerizing comments, like this one from David M. regarding his comment #1000 on the previous generation of the endless thread:

The sitemeter was at 62,000,095 at that time, and at 62,000,263 when the page reloaded.

Posted by: Mack | November 14, 2009 7:47 PM

If there aren't spankings and oral sex, is there still going to be bacon? Possibly with spam?

Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, bacon and spam.

Posted by: Lynna | November 14, 2009 7:50 PM

Dustman @27, I am beginning to suspect that Sir Lancelot was a time traveler. He certainly sounds like a mormon transported back in time.

“Loss of virtue is too great a price to pay even for the preservation of ones life - better dead clean, than alive unclean. Many a faithful Latter-day Saint parent has sent a son or a daughter on a mission or otherwise out into the world with the direction: ‘I would rather have you come back in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it.’”–Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine (all editions), page 124.

“…"The First Presidency has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure, or unholy practice. If a person is engaged in a practice which troubles him enough to ask about it, he should discontinue it."- Official Declaration of the First Presidency of the Church, January 5th, 1982.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | November 14, 2009 7:56 PM

I submit that labels like “denier” are meaningless, conversation-stopping terms.

Posted by: Lynna | November 14, 2009 8:01 PM

Here is a contribution for the masturbation-in-general ingredient:

If you are associated with other persons having this same problem, YOU MUST BREAK OFF THEIR FRIENDSHIP.

Posted by: Wonko the Sane | November 14, 2009 8:14 PM

Talking about masturbation and the internet, I was just about to draw a nifty little comic picture called "buffering anticlimax"..

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | November 14, 2009 8:48 PM

And some of that bacon spanking lesbian bible oral sex.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | November 14, 2009 9:10 PM

Just for grins and giggles, I tried opening the Pharnygula chatroom. I got a CTD. So I won't be doing that again.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | November 14, 2009 9:15 PM

Here's an appropriate song for a discussion of masturbation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqDjMZKf-wg

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | November 14, 2009 9:19 PM

I just got here! So, what's up? Can someone sum up in 8 words or less?

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 14, 2009 9:36 PM

bah, and I even misspelled his name. stoopid "i" was supposed to be a "j".

see? I do so much better when dead tired :-p

Posted by: Ompompanoosuc | November 14, 2009 9:45 PM

Bacon? BACON? Strange thing happened this morning. I was meeting up with my dad to go hunt the elusive white tailed deer and I found that he was being forced to eat something called "Maple Flavored Bacon" and it was $2.50 per pound. I fried some of it up and it literally disappeared as it was being cooked and turned a color other than what I expect of the most glorious food, bacon.

Wisest human and exponent of cube theory,
Ompompanoosuc

Posted by: Amber Woodside | November 14, 2009 9:58 PM

Quite frankly, I am not a big of bacon.

Posted by: MrFire | November 14, 2009 10:02 PM

This place is nothing but a haven for atheists, sodomites and ubernerds.

Might I buy any of you a drink?

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | November 14, 2009 10:04 PM

Quite frankly, I am not a big of bacon.

Bacon generally comes in rashers, slabs and sides.

Posted by: mythusmage | November 14, 2009 10:09 PM

It is said that even the sanest people have moments of utter insanity. This thread demonstrates the truth of that where Pharyngula is concerned.

Posted by: F | November 14, 2009 10:17 PM

Lynna @ 20:

Looks like they finally got something right at the end of the quote: clastic detritus.

Posted by: Thunderbird5 | November 14, 2009 10:18 PM

@32

Indeed. Casey the denier denialist just wishes didn't have to describe his favourite type of stockings like that.

Posted by: mythusmage | November 14, 2009 10:40 PM

Speaking of mental meandering...

We start by reviewing gravity according to Einstein's General Relativity. In short, mass curves space time, and it is the results of this when two bodies come close to each other that we call gravity. When you get right down to it, gravitationally speaking everything is downhill from everything else.

We now switch our focus to the birth of the Earth/Moon system, but remember how gravity works plays a part in this version of the story.

You, I do hope, have heard about the Big Splash theory of Earth/Moon formation. The idea that a Mars-sized proto world by the name of Theia crashed into the proto Earth, with the Earth/Moon system forming out of the remains. It is my thought that an actual collision was not necessary. That even a near miss sufficed to do the work.

We start with Earth and Theia in position, separated by 60 degrees of arc in their common orbit. For awhile the situation is stable, but this stability ends when the two bodies accumulate sufficient mass to render the arrangement unstable. When their respective masses have reached a certain point the two begin to fall towards each other.

Being the trailing body Theia is accelerated towards the Earth, and being accelerated moves away from the Sun. Earth, the leading body, is decelerated, and moving slower now moves closer to the Sun. As the two come closer to each other this process accelerates, until the two worlds are close enough for tidal stresses to have a substantial impact on each.

Theia, being the smaller orb, approaches within the proto-Earth's Roche Limit, and as a result is broken up. The larger proto-Earth does not come within Theia's Roche Limit, but does experience tidal stress severe enough to break up and re-melt the planet's newly formed crust. A rather thick, strong, Venus-like crust BTW.

Most of Theia's remains is incorporated into a larger Earth, with only a fraction of the destroyed planet coalescing into the Moon. But even greatly reduced in mass the new Moon still has a great impact on the newly enlarged Earth gravitationally. Now consider the fact that the Moon, even at her great distance, still pulls out Earth's crust a few inches or so. Now place the Moon just outside Earth's Roche Limit and consider how much greater the 'pull' would be in such a case. I'm thinking on the order of hundreds of feet. Crust by the way being washed on a daily basis by water tides of as much as thousands of feet.

Earth's first crust appears to have formed quickly, and thickly. So thick that tectonic activity never really got a chance to get going, with Earth's internal heat being trapped inside. Along with stuff such as water etc. But with the tidal stress imposed by the Moon added to the process of forming Earth's second crust proceeds more slowly. More tectonic activity over a longer period of time. More outgassing and release of water vapor too.

The end result is an atmosphere that cools down to the point where liquid water is possible. Water that soaks into the crust weakening it. A crust and upper mantle that remains water soaked to this day, allowing tectonic activity that imposes itself on our attention a bit too often for our peace of mind.

And so, thanks to the Moon, Earth develops a thinner, weaker crust than before. A moon gained thanks to a near miss.

BTW, if Theia had been the leading body instead of the trailing it's likely the current arrangement would still pertain. For it matters not which was the larger, but the mechanics of what happens when a body accelerates or decelerates in its orbit.

Posted by: Lynna | November 14, 2009 10:53 PM

Amber @50

I'm not a big of bacon.

Bacon generally comes in rashers, slabs and sides.

I am not a big of bacon either.

As for Ompompanoosuc's request for a red squirrel recipe, I've read in old mountain man diaries that some of them just tied a string around whatever they caught and then dipped the little beastie into one of the boiling hot springs in the Yellowstone area (this was before the National Park days). I recommend squirrel stew. A stew makes a little meat go a long way.

I was raised on moose meat and elk, but my father and brothers usually did the gutting and cleaning, me being too much of a delicate flower for such bloody work.

Posted by: Lynna | November 14, 2009 11:03 PM

Ahh, Turkeys. Turkeys were mentioned up-thread. I know where there are some gobblers. There's this ridge above Hells Canyon, on the route to Pittsburg Landing.

Also, check the area around the confluence of the Lochsa, Selway, and Clearwater Rivers. Pre-dawn turkey parade was seen crossing the highway and heading up into the mountains.

The sightings above are in Idaho. Here's one for Utah: On the rim of Dark Canyon, not far from Bears Ears Pass.

And here's another Utah sighting: We saw the largest flock of wild turkeys we've ever encountered. The turkeys were crossing a dirt road like a herd of cows at about 5 AM. They had been down to the North Fork of the Virgin River for a morning drink. Yes, turkeys do gobble a lot, and the males fly at each other in mock battles.

Posted by: Lynna | November 14, 2009 11:13 PM

Now consider the fact that the Moon, even at her great distance, still pulls out Earth's crust a few inches or so. Now place the Moon just outside Earth's Roche Limit and consider how much greater the 'pull' would be in such a case. I'm thinking on the order of hundreds of feet.

Pompy, if you're going to dip a moose in a hot springs, please use rope, or better yet, a chain, and not string. This tip courtesy of the Delicate Flower (aka, Satan in Disguise; aka "Nothing Worse Than a Foul-Mouthed Woman").

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 15, 2009 12:28 AM

Focus...we need focus.
Let's focus on
uh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy0qsrny58I

Posted by: Aquaria | November 15, 2009 1:21 AM

Lesbians aren't my thing, so is it okay to substitute hot young Asian men? For those of us who prefer that, mind you...

I'd also like to add cute kitties, like Maru-chan?

Posted by: F | November 15, 2009 1:45 AM

Maru is teh awesome kittehs. Cute is right. Li'l predators.

Posted by: DingoJack | November 15, 2009 2:10 AM

Oops labeling fail, in addition to humour fail. [Slinks away, lurks in darkness] - DJ

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 15, 2009 2:53 AM

Thread update.

Posted by: Rorschach | November 15, 2009 3:11 AM

"Sodomy" is a fascinating word, actually.Some factoids :

In St Lucia there seems to be a 25 years prison sentence for anal intercourse, even between consenting adults.

"Sodomie" in german, polish and norwegian strictly refers to beastiality, not anal sex between humans.

The meaning of the term seems to have shifted from "immoral", "unnatural desire" or "false flesh" to mean especially anal sex, and in particular that of the homosexual variety.Another case of controlling the meaning of language and words by mainly the RCC it would seem.

Source

Posted by: Rorschach | November 15, 2009 3:41 AM

bluskool,

that was different ! But great lyrics.

Posted by: F | November 15, 2009 4:23 AM

Heh. Very cool, bluskool.

Posted by: mythusmage | November 15, 2009 4:53 AM

Lynna, #68

For a world Earth's density I believe the Roche Limit is 2.49 times radius. Assuming a similar density for Theia the same would hold true. Thus it would be possible for Theia to come within the proto Earth's Roche Limit without Earth coming within Theia's Roche Limit.

Where gravitational tides are concerned, the math I'm not clear on. I'm just assuming that the math behind distance and gravitational influence means a greater effect the closer you get, and so a greater stretching of the Earth towards the Moon the closer the Moon is to the Earth. And the Earth's Roche Limit is a lot closer than the Moon's current orbit.

It may just have been tens of feet, but that still means a lot of stress on a slowly cooling crust being saturated by newly introduced water. Which weaker crust means a crust that can be 'moved' more than the old stronger, thicker crust could be. Which makes it easier for interior heat to escape in the form of volcanic eruptions, which in turns an turn over of crustal material in good old tectonic activities.

Now consider the evidence for volcanic activity on the Moon, and consider the effect of gravitational tides of a very close Earth on that world.

Posted by: strange gods before me ॐ homintern radfem | November 15, 2009 6:28 AM

Can someone point me to this month's Molly thread?

Posted by: strange gods before me ॐ homintern radfem | November 15, 2009 6:46 AM

That's a November comment. These are the October Mollies. Do you want Pharyngula to descend into anarchy?

Posted by: Rorschach | November 15, 2009 6:57 AM

I was just saying that strangest brew's comment goes on my list, for November obviously....

October I had a few people marked down, pending PZ finally giving us a thread to vote !

Hank Fox is part of the furniture here, like Sven , cant give those guys a Molly can we? They have one anyway, of sorts, just for longevity...:-)

Posted by: strange gods before me ॐ homintern radfem | November 15, 2009 7:19 AM

I was just saying that strangest brew's comment goes on my list, for November obviously....

Whew. For a minute there I worried you were going to flaunt the law, and drag Pharyngula into ill repute.

Posted by: Dania | November 15, 2009 7:34 AM

"Sleazy PZ" recently announced my expulsion from Pharyngula in a post brimming with excremental imagery.

Can someone point me to that "brimming with excremental imagery" post? I missed the thread where he was banned and now I'm curious.

Posted by: Dustman | November 15, 2009 8:30 AM

I crashed early and missed all the fun.
getting back to lynna and the assertion that lancelot is a time traveling mormon... he does use the same logic: it's bad because it's bad (perilous).
but imma tell ya something. IF the mormons have access to a time machine, then we're all in terrible danger...

Portal - Not the Same (i thought it was called "Crawl Above the Sky")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywPSCh1HHN0

Posted by: Walton | November 15, 2009 8:35 AM

As I said elsewhere, I think it was unreasonable to ban Piltdown. Don't get me wrong - I fully acknowledge Professor Myers' legal right to ban whoever he wants from his private blog. But had it been my blog, I would not have done so.

Banning outright trolls, who are just here to cause trouble and abuse people, is one thing. But Piltdown - while completely and utterly insane, and an advocate of some fairly revolting ideas - was bright, articulate, and interesting to talk to. I think we all benefit, from time to time, from having our most fundamental ideas challenged. And I simply can't understand why, exactly, he was banned. If nothing else, the responses of Owlmirror et al. to his comments made for interesting reading, and I learnt a lot from those discussions.

If possible, could someone point me to the thread where he was banned, and to the stated reasons for his banning?

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 15, 2009 9:09 AM

Thus is it written upon the Dungeon door:

Piltdown Man
Inspidity
Utterly obtuse toad who just kept coming back with weasely arguments for Catholicism, without ever addressing anyone's arguments with substance.

That description isn't bad, actually. He tried to do profound psychology with us by insinuating that evil lurks behind every corner, but never actually replied to any argument, leading to a lot of repetition. It's fairly obvious that the reason he wasn't banned years ago is that he didn't comment more often.

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | November 15, 2009 9:38 AM

Insipidy will get you every time.

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | November 15, 2009 10:00 AM

mythusmage | November 14, 2009 10:40 PM

I have my doubts on this hypothesis because of the type of elements that the moon is made of;

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=y5202x01x434r134&size=largest

I would speculate that it is more likely that the moon is accretion from material too far out to join earth during a dynamic change in earth's gravity as it coalesced.

but I wasn't there *obviously* and I have not studied it thoroughly.
I guess we'll have to set up camp there and check it out.

Posted by: Feynmaniac | November 15, 2009 10:13 AM

Sometimes that blog looks like the meeting place of Pharyngula's Dungeon residents.

Yeah, it's been noted before. One particular thread was incredibly insane:

734. Pete R**ke Says: July 17th, 2009 at 7:52 pm

736. John A. D*vis*n Says:
July 17th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
"I thought all ejaculatuions were biological, but random? What a mess!"

742. S*lver F*x Says:
July 17th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
"“Call us when Myers straps on a bomb and kills innocent civilians.”
Well, he came reasonably close to that not long ago. "

743. Anthony McCarthy Says:
July 17th, 2009 at 9:46 pm

748. J*hn Kw*k Says:
July 17th, 2009 at 10:02 pm

769. JAMSHEED MOIDU Says:
July 18th, 2009 at 5:33 am
"HARUNYAHYA GET OUT OF PRISON HE DESTROY ALL DAWKINIST ARGUMENT!!!"

773. dav*dmab*s Says:
July 18th, 2009 at 7:13 am
"HOW WE WON THE MILLION DOLLAR PARANORMAL CHALLENGE"

All of these people were banned from Pharyngula, except Jamsheed 'ALL CAPS' Moidu and McCarthy (who's just a banned wannabe).

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 10:18 AM

@103

Walton, here is the link to the banning. Bilbo got banned at roughly the same time.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | November 15, 2009 10:22 AM

Care to pair those with a FRESHLY-MADE BAGEL?

I'll provide the cream cheese.

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 10:41 AM

Dustman @98

getting back to lynna and the assertion that lancelot is a time traveling mormon... he does use the same logic: it's bad because it's bad (perilous).
but imma tell ya something. IF the mormons have access to a time machine, then we're all in terrible danger...

(Journal of Discourses., 1871, p. 27 1)
"...whose hearts leapt with joy and exceeding delectation... and dwelt into the cliffs of the orb of the basin named Hertz-sprung in the sight of all splendor.." Revelations Prophet Brigham Young concerning Floeese, the Moon

Quantum Mormonics: 1. A fundamental Mormon theory of doctrine and policy that explains facts that previous prophets were unable to account for, in particular the fact that doctrine is obfuscated and press-released in small, indiscrete quantities (quanta), and that all Mormon matters display both ravelike and Article of Faithlike properties, especially when viewed at Adamic and sub-Adamic scales. Quantum Mormonics suggests that the behavior of members and investigators is inherently gullablistic and that the effect of the Morganization on the mystical system being observed must be understood as a part of that closed system. Also called quantum patriarchics and quantum theocracy.

Posted by: Dania | November 15, 2009 10:47 AM

McCarthy (who's just a banned wannabe).

Which just makes it all the more hilarious. It seems that around those parts claiming to be banned from Pharyngula makes you look cool... even if it's a lie.

Matt Pennfold thinks so. Good enough for me.

Well, he makes as much sense there as he made here...

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 10:58 AM

Richard Dawkins' book "Greatest Show on Earth" is being recommended as a perfect gift for TBMs (True Believing Mormons) on ex-mo bulletin boards.

This is a science blog, so here is another installment of Mormon Space Doctrine:

Quantum Melchezidicks - by Don Bagley
     Quantum Melchezidicks form a branch of Mormonics as well as free particles known as pisons and mesons, Freemesons being the most mysterious of these. For the mesons possess a quality known as left-handedness.
     How could it be that if up and down and left and right are in flux, one could identify left-handednes? Consider a vertical structure as deacom, teachom and priestom. This is a polarity with leftness and rightness (righteousness?).
     None can predict that the particle of Eldron can be captured in the eldritch quorum. But there it remains, for the High Priestom is attainable only by far greater power expenditure.
     A quorum, by the way, is created by synchronicity, and no other means. A quantum is a bit, which is to say a place-holding particle.
     If, and this is not likely, you discover that by quantum or particle, you can influence a quorum, you will find a breakaway theory, and you will be given power and authority to claim young, unwed girls as your own. At this point, you become prophet.

Posted by: Ompompanoosuc | November 15, 2009 10:59 AM

How many people here have actually killed something, cut it up with their bare hands

I want your fingernails.

Oops. I meant to say "bare hands and teeth."

I was hungry last night, and sloshed.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | November 15, 2009 11:07 AM

McCarthy (who's just a banned wannabe).

McCarthy's been told repeatedly, once even by PZ, that he isn't banned. That hasn't stopped the boy from saying that he has been banned.

Posted by: Dustman | November 15, 2009 11:27 AM

lol
thats good stuff Lynna
your evil is truly subtle
In the past I was more into scaring the poor things.
But that has the effect of strengthening faith, my behavior just confirmed their fear that satan was loose in the world.
[/introspection]

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 11:48 AM

thats good stuff Lynna your evil is truly subtle

The Poor Things (aka, mormon missionaries) have been so brainwashed that most of them will not enter my house because I am a single female. Never mind that I'm old enough to be their mother. Two of them (companions in lockstep) actually backed up in horror when I invited them in. I am all-powerful.

If they think you are a potential "investigator" they will, reluctantly, part with some printed literature and a DVD titled "Finding Faith in Christ" (painting of Jesus on the front, stepping out the tomb looking good as new, and really, really clean). I suggest storing such gifts (in pristine condition -- don't remove the shrink wrap) so that you have an offering for any Elders that do bravely enter your home. The Poor Things have to buy this crap themselves, plus pay for their two years of service, plus be housed in dreadful conditions, plus be subjected to interrogations about masturbation. Give them back their toys that you have saved up and they will be grateful. They're already gullible. Top off with a visit to their girlfriend's facebook page, and voila, a crack in the brainwashed carapace.

Uh-oh, I have revealed the secret anti-torture techniques. Now the troops will be prepared at MTC (Missionary Training Center). I think I may have made a tactical error.

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | November 15, 2009 11:56 AM

David I'm shocked, I really thought we would see eye to eye on this one...are you saying that you think impact is more likely than accreation?

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 15, 2009 12:00 PM

That's it? That's the "post brimming with excremental imagery"?

Oh for crying out loud. There's literally just "one [...] shitfleck" in it.

Or does the Hoax consider the term fuckwit to be "excremental imagery"? That would be telling.

Surely he knows that asinine comes from Latin asinus = donkey?

Indeed, fundies say the darndest things.

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 15, 2009 12:06 PM

are you saying that you think impact is more likely than accre[...]tion?

Of course. The hypothesis that Earth and Moon formed in their present positions at the same time was replaced by the impact hypothesis precisely because the former hypothesis doesn't work. It can't explain the differences in chemical composition or relative core sizes between Earth and Moon. The impact hypothesis can not only do all that, it has survived computer simulations that show a surprisingly wide range of impact angles works.

As I said, look it up. Start with Wikipedia.

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 12:23 PM

McCarthy's been told repeatedly, once even by PZ, that he isn't banned. That hasn't stopped the boy from saying that he has been banned.

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 12:40 PM

Lynna, I'm confused about Mormons. Do they think Jesus is a god or not? I was looking over Wikipedia and it says they consider God the Father and Jesus as separate entities. Does that mean they are polytheists?

“Adam came into the garden of Eden with a celestial body and one of his many wives, he is our Father and God. The Father, not the Holy Spirit, conceived Jesus with the Virgin Mary.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, p. 50.)

Quorum Mechanics: The political dynamics of the Quorum of the Twelve and First Presidency which leads to chaos in offical doctrine and policy because no one is actually in charge; and that a certain doctrine means one thing and simultaneously another thing.

Posted by: A. Noyd | November 15, 2009 12:47 PM

Lynna (#123)

The problem is that each mishie is attached to a "companion" and you cannot usually strip the companion away in order to dilute or neutralize an Elder.

And for good reason. I had a stray missionary talk to me at a bus stop once and nearly had him in tears by the time the bus came, just by pointing out he was expecting me to give a level of consideration to his beliefs that he'd never given to any other beliefs. He really wanted to be able to say that he absolutely wouldn't be a Muslim if he'd grown up in a Muslim family, but he was just a little too honest not to think about it. I'm sure a few hours of lessons and prayer cured him of any doubts once he got back to his partner, though. But I bet he never tries the solo thing again!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~

aratina cage (#133)

I was looking over Wikipedia and it says they consider God the Father and Jesus as separate entities. Does that mean they are polytheists?

Sort of. As it's been explained to me (ages ago) by my friend, family is soooo important that god has a wife, for instance. You're just bad if you worship other gods.

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 12:50 PM

More mormonness for aratina. God looks like PZ, more or less:

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also..." --Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22

Jesus looks more or less like PZ's son, but he had to fight Satan for the right to have a body of flesh. Jesus was a spirit before he was given a physical body. Following the "logic" of this, we could have had Satan as a redeemer.

The Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit that does not have a physical body, the better to appear in your bosom as a burning sensation. The Holy Spirit is, however, the third person of the Godhead.

If three entities make up a single Godhead, is that polytheism or monotheism?
I suggest you chat live with a mormon missionary at http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/ask-a-question/chat-live

Oh, yes, one more point. God is bigger than the entire universe, which makes him one mightly big incarnation of a PZ-like character. I have problems with the math and the implications for the virgin mary.

Posted by: A. Noyd | November 15, 2009 12:54 PM

Lynna (#140)

The Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit that does not have a physical body, the better to appear in your bosom as a burning sensation.

Can Zantac fend off the holy ghost?

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 1:03 PM

lynna obviously paid more attention than i ever did in sunday school.

I learned about mormonism in a vain effort to understand or help my mormon friends who were going through hell on earth. I found it hard to believe that mo-ism could be that bad. But it's always worse than you thought. Just keep digging and you'll see what I mean.

Try this website, for example: http://www.evergreeninternational.org/

Posted by: Dania | November 15, 2009 1:06 PM

I've been trying to submit a comment on the "moral conundrum" thread and I get this as a result:

Thank you for commenting.

Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner.

Return to the original entry.

So this is a test, to see if the same thing happens here.

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 1:10 PM

Can Zantac fend off the holy ghost?

Utah residents currently use more antidepressant drugs, notably Prozac® (fluoxetine hydrochloride, introduced in 1987), than the residents of any other US state. This problem is clearly, closely and definitely linked to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Approximately 70% of Utahns are Mormons. Jim Jorgenson, director of pharmacy services for the University of Utah, confirmed that Utah has the highest percentage of anti-depressant use,... http://packham.n4m.org/prozac.htm

Eli-Lilly dispenses 62% more Prozac in Utah than any other state. More Utahns take Prozac-style drugs than in any other state, according to a study conducted in June of 2001 by Express Scripts, a pharmacy benefit management firm. [8] The study indicated that Utah residents average 1.1 prescriptions per person per year of medications such as Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil. The national average is 0.7. ... http://www.lifeafter.org/mormonsuicide.asp

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 1:17 PM

OK. I can comment here, but not there. I wonder if there's any good reason for this or if it's just the SB software getting even stupider...

Did you include a lot of hyperlinks in your comment? Owlmirror tested the scienceblogs server recently and found that he could include four hyperlinks, but I've had comments bounced to the "approval" void for three hyperlinks.

The only other reason I've had comments held was when I was too fast on the draw and the server flagged me as spamming.

Save your comments in a text editor in case this happens. PZ is too busy to do the "approval" bit, so your comment is probably gone forever to that great comment trash bin in the sky.

With PZ allowing us to comment without signing in, (and dealing with the resultant spam), I think it's only fair that he doesn't spend time "approving."

Posted by: Aaron Baker | November 15, 2009 1:19 PM

I've done this before on open or semi-open threads here, with a constructive response or two: presented a draft from my poem workshop. Typically, I spare the readers (if any) from maudlin romantic meanderings, and instead share something related to unbelief. There's an element of that here, though it's mostly about how one copes with death, without the consolation of what Wallace Stevens called "a starry connaissance." Anyway, if it's a sentimental mess, I think this site is just about perfect for unsparing commentary--so have at it.

(One other remark: I actually convinced one literary magazine to accept a poem; that magazine then went out of business before it could be published. Evidence against the existence of God, or for it? Discuss amongst yourselves.)

THE CAT I NEVER LIKED

The cat I never liked is gone today—
Though yesterday her whining, clumps of fur,
And smells seemed hardy as Precambrian stone.

I will not praise her liveliness, for she
Was lassitude made flesh—and only death
Could be more still.

The cat I never liked
Stirred mostly for the food (my only use
To keep her fat) and then returned to sleep,
Needing no further human company
Than my daughter’s; shared the bed at night
Until my daughter reached a certain age
And put her out. I almost pitied her,
Abandoned to her drippy, dim devices.

The cat I never liked grew sick one day
And adamantly got no better: puked
And crapped just like before, but couldn’t walk
Away this time.

My daughter flinched and held her
For the last needle--and I pitied her.

My daughter helps me clean her closet out:
Her box, her catnip toy, some lengths of string.
“She’s gone,” my daughter says, and sets her face.
“She’s gone,” I say, “as gone as gone can be.”

We pause.

And who will pause for you and me,
My darling, when we’re gone as gone can be?

Posted by: Dania | November 15, 2009 1:26 PM

There are a few words that automatically trigger mod, including the names of a few long-banned trolls.

Thanks, Sven. That explains it. My comment had no links, but I did mention the Rookie* by his full name.

*Lynna probably knows why.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 15, 2009 1:31 PM

Aaron, I found your poem effectively affecting, and straightforward enough to avoid sappiness.
Nice. IMO.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 15, 2009 1:41 PM

First news conference of the first African-American President:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQOTXR9CEM

(as imagined in 1977. Pure genius.)

h/t M. Berube (w/accents)

Posted by: Dustman | November 15, 2009 1:43 PM

lancelot looked so much like John Cleese I thought he would be more open minded. can't judge by appearances obviously.

Posted by: OurDeadSelves | November 15, 2009 1:47 PM

lancelot looked so much like John Cleese I thought he would be more open minded.

Michael Palin?

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 1:52 PM

Aaron @152: You called it right. Too sentimental. Ripe for publication in christian magazine. My first suggestion is to take a more direct approach. Change this:

The cat I never liked is gone today—
Though yesterday her whining, clumps of fur,
And smells seemed hardy as Precambrian stone.

If you strike the "I never like you pose" more strongly, we are more likely to be moved by you being affected emotionally (along with the daughter) near the end of the poem.

Cat, you were lassitude made flesh.

That's better than "I will not praise her liveliness, for she
Was lassitude made flesh—and only death
Could be more still."

You weaken your own best lines by padding them with crap. Be a ruthless editor.

And put her out—abandoned
her to her drippy, dim devices. (See that? Delete "I almost pitied her" because the verb "abandoned" does that work for you. Don't explain your pity to us. We'll understand your pity more if we come upon it as a discovery, and not as a lesson explained to us by you.)

Carry on. BTW, I'm not expecting you to accept or use my wording. Use your own voice. I just gave those examples because they allowed me to be specific about the poem's weaknesses. Fix them in your own way.

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 2:37 PM

Complexity Explained: How Did Complex Molecules Like Proteins and DNA Emerge Spontaneously?
Excerpt:

DNA carries information for the synthesis of proteins, but it requires the prior availability of certain protein molecules for performing its genetic duties. Such proteins help the double-helix DNA molecule to uncoil itself and split into two strands for replication purposes. Therefore, DNA and certain proteins must have emerged independently, by some efficient (and therefore reasonably likely) chemical processes. But how?

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 2:51 PM

Most days, when I take a walk by the Snake River, I stop to skip a few rocks in an eddy. Somebody has to do it. On a day when I can get the angle just right, it's a sign that I'm on top of my game. I can skip a frisbee on a driveway, or a flat rock on packed sand as well. Imparting spin to the object to be skipped helps a lot. This means, that with my small hands, I'm limited to smaller rocks that I can spin, or to the edge of something like a frisbee which is thin enough and light enough for me to both grasp it and spin it.

I know the angle needs to be low, and that the stone skips best if I throw sidearm and the trailing edge of the spinning stone hits the water first (but just barely). Does anyone know the optimum angle for skipping a stone?

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | November 15, 2009 3:00 PM

Very seldom do I meet someone who can throw a frisbee utilising the wind currents as well as I can and when I do, you never even have to move...22.5 degrees with optimum force for distance.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | November 15, 2009 3:09 PM

The trouble with a kitten is that
When it grows up, it's always a cat.

-Ogden Nash

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | November 15, 2009 3:15 PM

Lynna,

Skipping stones is one of those things that is usually passed on generation to generation. I was taught to skip stones by my father and I taught my daughter how to skip stones.

Does anyone know the optimum angle for skipping a stone?

As low as possible. I launch my stones as flat as I can and about knee level. Sorry I can't be more precise.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | November 15, 2009 3:22 PM

Does anyone know the optimum angle for skipping a stone?

Posted by: Sphere...Coupler | November 15, 2009 3:31 PM

I could get Wiki to change that to 22.5 if I could just get my rock skipping grant approved.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | November 15, 2009 3:35 PM

The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem singing Carrickfergus:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVDXm8wBnpo

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 3:40 PM

I could get Wiki to change that to 22.5 if I could just get my rock skipping grant approved.

Posted by: Sphere...Coupler | November 15, 2009 3:48 PM

Cool, consider yourself signed up and so is this guy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8KoqLziDVU

More prime time Prine?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z1wNrPHGlQ&feature=related

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | November 15, 2009 3:56 PM

Sorry didn't mean to decieve but it looks as tho a fish prolonged the skip. Do you see it? Just after the first fish ripple and after the camera zooms at about 7.5 seconds.

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 4:00 PM

Sorry didn't mean to decieve but it looks as tho a fish prolonged the skip. Do you see it? Just after the first fish ripple and after the camera zooms at about 7.5 seconds

It was a damned good stone skipping, assist or no.

Posted by: Mr T | November 15, 2009 4:04 PM

Aaron Baker:
I like the poem, but I humbly suggest that you rip apart most of the structure. It's just a little too prosaic for my taste. Instead of telling the reader about the cat or your feelings in complete sentences, try to show it with different kinds of imagery, letting the reader search for an interpretation. I'll also say that I felt the last line could be removed, rather than ending with a couplet, or at least think about replacing the last line with something more descriptive and less sentimental. Thanks.

Somehow the concertina in 'Tis Himself's Clancy Brothers video immediately made me think of Astor Piazzolla on bandoneón:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rot-VFiQXF4

Posted by: Mr T | November 15, 2009 4:28 PM

When will they make HTML smart enough to fix my mistakes and know exactly what I want?

Escualo

And now for something completely different:

Goodbye Pork Pie Hat

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 15, 2009 4:38 PM

aah, the perfect sunday morning(ahem): curling up with a cup of Kona and reading the endless thread

Dustman, I find that if you include mormon missionaries it neutralizes some of them. I'm not sure of the exact chemistry, but if you let a mormon missionary use your computer to check email, catch up of facebook pages, etc. (all very verboten, mind you), they become almost human. You can also allow them to make phone calls (they are usually allowed only a couple of calls per year, one to Mom on Mother's Day, for example).

In the past I was more into scaring the poor things.

The hypothesis that Earth and Moon formed in their present positions at the same time was replaced by the impact hypothesis precisely because the former hypothesis doesn't work. It can't explain the differences in chemical composition or relative core sizes between Earth and Moon. The impact hypothesis can not only do all that, it has survived computer simulations that show a surprisingly wide range of impact angles works.

Also, I'm ignoring David's exposition on dinosaur teeth and instead go back to imagining him opening things with his pointy incisors. Much more pleasant.

Connlann or Alaric?

Here's an interesting study done by the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, see http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris.pdf

Most days, when I take a walk by the Snake River, I stop to skip a few rocks in an eddy. Somebody has to do it. On a day when I can get the angle just right, it's a sign that I'm on top of my game. I can skip a frisbee on a driveway, or a flat rock on packed sand as well.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 15, 2009 4:44 PM

^a, k thx

"Pizzolla" sounds like a processed sort of hot-appetizer food snack thing.

Or a baseball catcher.

Posted by: Aaron Baker | November 15, 2009 4:51 PM

Mr. T,

the last couplet may just be hopelessly maudlin. I'm seriously thinking of getting rid of it.

Thanks for the comments.

Maybe it would be more cynical, and so more appealing (given this audience) if it went something like:

And who will strike a pose for you and me . . . .

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 15, 2009 4:56 PM

386sx, you have a very strange sense of humor. I admire that. Thank you for not posting links to Kenny Rogers vids. Restraint is also, often, admirable.

Posted by: Aaron Baker | November 15, 2009 5:00 PM

Now I'm thinking maybe: "And who will play at words for you and me . . . ."

Uggh, I knew when I posted it it wasn't one of my better efforts--but it's good to have it masticated by a few other people

Posted by: Rorschach | November 15, 2009 5:05 PM

Sven @ 145,

I haz one for realz (Hank too).

Yeah, and that of course...:-)

My computer at work takes about 3 minutes to load a thread that big, if I'm lucky

But you know why that is ? Not because of the little bit of text actually, but the whole java and flash kaboodle that you have to load on an Internet Explorer without any blocking software running.Hell, it takes forever for me on my 10Mbit connection at home when I disable adblock and flashblock !

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 15, 2009 5:08 PM

who will play at words

Posted by: windy | November 15, 2009 5:18 PM

I'm reading the book in which Sven is reputed to make a cameo appearance. So far no telltale references to turtles, jazz or the Dead.

Posted by: Mr T | November 15, 2009 5:33 PM

Aaron, I think it's improving, but here are a few small changes I'd think about:

The cat I never liked, whose whining, dander, Smells hard as Precambrian stone, lassitude made flesh—so only death Could be more still.

Three days, when my daughter flinched, held her For the last needle, and I pitied her.

For variety's sake, consider using your daughter's name, or some other description, instead of using the word "daughter" so many times.

I'm not a big fan of a rhetorical question in the ending couplet, but honestly I'm not sure how else you would want to conclude.

Posted by: Mr T | November 15, 2009 5:37 PM

Sorry, I didn't add line breaks, but they'd be the same as in the original.

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 5:46 PM

'Tis, that was a great photo of the sailboat with the wind straining at the sail, and folks just about being dunked in the drink. You're right of course, sailors do learn to read the wind -- and they have a special skill of reading it as it travels over water.

Rock skipping report: My best effort resulted in about 12-15 skips (they get very hard to count at the end). In my defense, I don't have a perfectly calm, still body of water to work with since I'm throwing into the river.

I tried skipping a few rocks that I knew were a bit big for me. They sort of bumbled around on the surface for a short bit and then sank. Power to weight ratio was obviously off.

It's possible to throw a small stone too hard, or at the the wrong angle (or both?) and have it skip long and far, only to drown swiftly at the end of its flight.

I'm going to have to start going to a different gravel bar. The pickings for good skipping rocks are starting to get really slim at my favorite spot. Most of the rocks there are too fat. I felt so deprived that I skipped a few oddballs, like one shaped like a bicycle seat (but flat, thank goodness). It skipped once then veered wildly, skipped once more, veered again and tipped into the river.

I've never seen anyone else skipping rocks there. Sometimes I see a fisherman, but most often there's no one there but me. Does this mean that I have cleaned an entire gravel bar of skipping stones? I don't know whether to be proud or ashamed. Ah well, more good stones will be exposed in the spring.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | November 15, 2009 5:51 PM

Jadehawk #211

Conservatives defund government services to the point where they becomes dysfunctional, and then complain that government isn't working.

Posted by: windy | November 15, 2009 5:54 PM

@213: didn't you spill the beans on it yourself, a while ago?

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 15, 2009 6:04 PM

I'll be damned. Apparently I did. I think it's hilarious that you're reading it. My character is actually one of the few that emerge with any dignity.

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | November 15, 2009 6:14 PM

Sven said

I'll be damned. Apparently I did. I think it's hilarious that you're reading it. My character is actually one of the few that emerge with any dignity.

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 6:18 PM

Mr. Deity discusses his experience leaving mormonism, as well as lots of other stuff in this 50-minute long presentation at the AAI 2009 Conference.

It's funny to see Mr. Deity behind the Marriott hotel podium -- the Marriott is owned by mormons. An ex-mo joke is that the mormon campaign against porn is being balanced out by all that porn available at the Marriott hotels. Another joke is that the mormon bigwigs check into a Marriott in order to watch porn -- they get a discount.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 15, 2009 6:24 PM

the Marriott is owned by mormons

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 15, 2009 6:35 PM

There are queastions about the hypothisis you know.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/07/080709-moon-water.html

That's very vague.

I am only posting the words now through a cheap html trick*.

*h/t David M

Which is to open and close a tag inside the word: "Cale<i></i>donian" gets through, for instance.

This also works on other blogs.

And some words and phrases used by a few long-banned trolls.

Wow!

And the commenter Caledonian was never so annoying as to not deserve at least a chance at amnesty himself. Or so I recall; perhaps my memory is dimmed by time.

Well, imagine someone as inflammatory as the truth machine, only without any comment except glibertarianism. This is the Great Thread Derailer you're talking about here. Yes, he invented the Timecube scale, and taught me about the circumcised Americans, but I wonder if he was trolling most of the time.

Also, I'm ignoring David's exposition on dinosaur teeth

Tsk, tsk. Anthracosaurus is not a dinosaur*. It's twice as old (Late Carboniferous – Greek anthrax means "coal"). Even the frogs are more closely related to us than Anthracosaurus is (Germain, 2008 [unpubl. dissertation]; Marjanović, Laurin & Germain, in prep.). Maybe it even retained internal gills, though no shoulder girdle is known, so we can't tell...

* Oh shit. I completely forgot to explain. There I go, blithely presenting you just a skull, and expecting everyone to... <headdesk>

Also, my incisors are not pointy. My canines are. All four of them, though.

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 6:42 PM

Jadehawk, here's the mormon/marriott story
http://www.marriott.com/corporateinfo/culture/heritageJWillardMarriott.mi

To be fair, Bill Marriott says he does not do the anti-gay thing, and did not take a position on prop 8. He and many of his employees pay tithe to the LDS church that is taking political positions, so I'm not convinced.
http://www.blogs.marriott.com/default.asp?item=2284808

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 15, 2009 6:46 PM

only without any comment

Content.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 15, 2009 6:51 PM

speaking of that English fail above... does anyone know if increased dysphasic moments are normal, or a sign of my brain turning to mush? I'm not old enough yet for first signs on senility! :-p

Posted by: Alan B | November 15, 2009 6:54 PM

#194 Jadehawk OM

aaah, that's the stuff... *pnow for perfect happiness is another installment of Alan B's "Share and Enjoy" series :-)

Patience, fans. There is such an embarrassment of riches out there. I think it may be a paper by Woodmorappe - but which?? I will try to make it tomorrow.

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 7:10 PM

Most astronomers believe a rogue planet collided with Earth about 4.5 billion years ago. The impact sent molten debris into orbit around Earth, some of which coalesced to form the moon.

Posted by: Mr T | November 15, 2009 7:26 PM

Gregory Greenwood:

As a tea-totaler

Perhaps that's not how you Brits spell the word, and in that case, I fart in your general direction.

Also, someone please reserve a little bacon, spanking, and oral sex for me. If that's asking for too much, I could purchase some bacon myself. Lesbians are optional, and bibles aren't necessary at all, since I'm fully stocked on bathroom tissue and rolling papers. Thanks.

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | November 15, 2009 7:33 PM

Alan B
Nice!
Ha, You caught me, so maybe it's not really made from [Philadelphia Cream Cheese]but I have a paper here somewhere, ah yes here it is, no no that's about the man in the moon, somewhere, I remember now, it was Taleggio,
no no,Stilton yes thats it Stilton
no no it was Camembert Yes that's itand they say it smells like god's feet and on a *good day* you can smell it on earth...aaaah damn now I can't link to it.

David, Vague? *Sigh*

Sven,Seems to me this guy Les had belts when he went to the Mojove Desert.

Lynna, where do you see that?
(source is the link at the top of post #228) Sarah Palin? Going Rogue?

Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | November 15, 2009 7:50 PM

Mr t @ 240,

"As a tea-totaler

You drink only tea? You're not one of those titillatingly totalitarian teetotalers, are you? "

I was attempting to be humourous. I should really know better. I am truly a teetotaler, but in no way totalitarian and lamentably not unduly titilating either. I do not drink tea at all (practically heresy for a Brit).

Carlie @ 239,

"Gregory - wait, if I can trade in a drink for a double, I might take that option too..."

Ah yes. A lady of taste and judgement I see. Two lesbians in the hand are indeed worth more than one in the bush.

Err . . . I don't think that saying really works in this context very well.

Posted by: windy | November 15, 2009 8:02 PM

I'll be damned. Apparently I did. I think it's hilarious that you're reading it. My character is actually one of the few that emerge with any dignity.

Sweaty the miner?

...just kidding, I know who it is now, not like there are too many alternatives anyway. The book is very funny, but on the other hand, now I'm not sure what to think about a particular research idea. YIKES!

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 15, 2009 8:02 PM

bah! Wasn't paying attention...
comment # 12345 was this one.

That's the last straight for a long time; in fact, no numerals of much interest other than palindromes for some time to come now, IMO. What am I missing?

(Wish I'd had the presence of mind to flag the Fibonacci comment, # 11235, which would have been...let's see...this one.)

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 15, 2009 8:09 PM

does anyone know if increased dysphasic moments are normal, or a sign of my brain turning to mush?

Normally I'd just ask how many hours of sleep per day you need and how many you get, because you describe the kinds of errors I make when tired, but the symptoms you mention in comment 247 are news to me, so I recommend looking for a professional.

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 8:18 PM

Lynna, where do you see that? (source is the link at the top of post #228) Sarah Palin? Going Rogue?

Posted by: windy | November 15, 2009 8:23 PM

@249: not a research idea from the book, a research idea IRL...

Posted by: Talen Lee | November 15, 2009 8:35 PM

Hopefully this works - I'm trying to sign in as well, getting an account and all. Either way, I was hoping I could interrupt the silliness to find someone capable of parsing some Latin for me. Specifically, Vos Es Nefas, Proinde Jesus. It's supposed to be 'You're wrong, therefore Jesus.' but I don't think that's right. I was sure that 'therefore' was 'propter' in Latin.

Anyway, back to the silliness.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 15, 2009 8:44 PM

that's not correct on several levels:

1)the "vos" isn't even necessary
2) "vos" is 2nd P. plural, "es" is 2nd P. singular
3)"nefas" means wrong in the sense of sinful, not in the sense of incorrect; and it's a noun, not an adjective

proinde works sort of, in the sense of "you're wrong = Jesus (exists); but it's the only part of that phrase that's even remotely correct

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | November 15, 2009 8:46 PM

Woo hoo, Finonacci sequence,I made the cut? Do I get more NOR Grog?

Lynna, ahhh Gotcha.

OK, now to get serious for a moment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ-Ke2uOH6g

C ya later

Posted by: Talen Lee | November 15, 2009 8:52 PM

Hm. Well, if you're able to work out why the statement is wrong, can you direct me to a place where I can find the tools necessary to make it right? Or cheat for me, and tell me the best way to express 'You're Wrong, Therefore Jesus?'

Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 8:58 PM

More lawsuits over sexual abuse of children by church and Boy Scout leaders. The story comes out of Portland, Oregon. Details here

The suit is being filed on behalf of an Oregon man. The man alleges sexual abuse as a child at the hands of a Mormon church youth leader.
     This is one of a handful of related abuse lawsuits Tweed tells KATU that Clark will file in San Francisco, Seattle and other West Coast towns Monday against the Mormon Church. Four of the suits also name the Boy Scouts as defendants.
     In 2007, Clark represented six Portland men who filed a lawsuit against the Mormon Church and the Boy Scouts of America seeking $25 million in damages for alleged sexual abuse in the 1980s. Clark reportedly obtained several trial court rulings and a state Supreme Court win in that suit.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 15, 2009 9:05 PM

actually, more accurate still would be "falsum es ergo Iesous" :-p

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 15, 2009 9:09 PM

neuter plural would be "falsa estis"

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 15, 2009 9:19 PM

you could substitute "christus" for "iesous" if you prefer

Posted by: Mr T | November 15, 2009 9:24 PM

Talen Lee:

"Ergo" is used much more often than "proinde".

"Nefas" is akin to nefarious, but if the intent is incorrect or false, then you could say "non legitamus" or "falsus" ("ex falso quodlibet" comes to mind, and although that refers to contradictions, I suppose "Jesus" is pretty much interchangeable with "quodlibet"). You could modify either with "aliquam", to mean "somewhat" or "in some degree" wrong. You might also say "ipso facto Jesus", meaning "by that fact Jesus", since the original wasn't grammatical either, and to me it seems even more humorous.

Posted by: Mr T | November 15, 2009 9:31 PM

It's been too many years since I took Latin. I'm fairly sure "falsum est" would be more proper, if what is false refers to a proposition as "it", rather than a person as "you".

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 15, 2009 9:33 PM

It's been too many years since I took Latin. I'm fairly sure "falsum est" would be more proper, if what is false refers to a proposition as "it", rather than a person as "you".

Posted by: Feynmaniac | November 15, 2009 9:42 PM

Complaint over government-funded subway being insufficiently prepared to transport people to a rally to protest government spending and expansion

truly facepalm-worthy.

Yes, truly:

Brady voted against Federal funding for the very same Metro he’s blaming for offering the tea partiers substandard service.

Posted by: OurDeadSelves | November 15, 2009 9:57 PM

homosexual power bottoms

That is going to be the name of my Village People cover band!

Posted by: mythusmage | November 15, 2009 10:00 PM

Sven, #145

I just knew PZ had Gaul. If only creationism would stay Celt.

Posted by: Aaron Baker | November 15, 2009 10:01 PM

Talen Lee:

What exactly are you trying to say in Latin?

"You're wrong, therefore Jesus (exists)" would best be rendered:

Erras [a verb, lit. "you're in error," "you're mistaken"], ergo Iesus (est).

Or, if you prefer:

Erras, ergo Christus (est).

Falsus can mean "mistaken," but much more commonly it means "false" or "erroneous." Proinde is sometimes consequential ("so," "then"), but in Classical Latin it most often means things like "accordingly," "according as," "just as."

Why am I so confident? Many, many years of Latin, including five spent getting a Ph.D. in Classics. And since my memory is less reliable by the day, I've backed it up with a few quick glances in the Oxford Latin Dictionary.

Hope this is helpful.

Posted by: Monado | November 15, 2009 10:16 PM

Ompompanoosuc [#59], my dad always said that squirrel tastes like goat, so a kebab is probably on the right track. Although if they spend all their time running, they're going to be tough; so maybe you should think of something mMiddle Eastern, with moist heat.

Posted by: Mr T | November 15, 2009 10:18 PM

I happen to like this version. I think the Latin is correct, or at least, as with horseshoes and hand grenades, it's close enough to count:

Nesciebio utrum aliquam falsum est necne, et dico ex cathedra, ergo Christus.

I do not know whether it is somewhat wrong or not, and I speak with infallibility, therefore Christ.

("ex cathedra" is literally "from the chair", but if it's good enough for the Pope, well, then ... uh....)

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 15, 2009 10:24 PM

Mr. T @ #288:

that may well be both correct and accurate, but it makes a shitty catchphrase or slogan :-p

Posted by: Mr T | November 15, 2009 10:31 PM

Yeah, too many years. I didn't even think about "erras".

Aaron, maybe you could help me with this: that last "i" in "nesciebio" was a typo, but that doesn't seem correct either. Does "nescio" mean "I do not know"? I remember giving a response like that quite a bit during verbal quizzes in Latin class, but now I've even forgotten that!

Posted by: Mack | November 15, 2009 11:06 PM

This thread is getting off topic. We need to get back to power bottoms buggering themselves with lesbian bibles made of bacon.

Posted by: Dustman | November 15, 2009 11:20 PM

Glad to see Alan B straightened everyone out on the whole Moon composition issue. Just saw a trailer for new Wallace & Gromit woo-hoo.

we now return to Lesbian Bibles Made of Bacon, already in progress.

Posted by: Owlmirror | November 15, 2009 11:32 PM

this is old, but I only now found it: Complaint over government-funded subway being insufficiently prepared to transport people to a rally to protest government spending and expansion

I'm imagining a deadpan response to this: "So, you're saying that you want a government that will make the trains run on time?"

I doubt he would get it, given that he's too dumb to realize that he's complaining about having gotten exactly the amount of service he thought he wanted before his train left the station. As it were.

(Pity this thread is no longer The Horror Express.)

Posted by: Aaron Baker | November 15, 2009 11:44 PM

@292,

Yes, Mr. T, nescio means "I don't know." With "nesciebo," are you aiming at a future? If so, it should be nesciam.

Posted by: darvolution proponentsist | November 15, 2009 11:52 PM

Ahh, an irrelevant thread for an irrelevant linky-poo ...

Jewish Girl Prank Calls Her Parents

Let's see what mom and pop think when they find out princess is going outside the tribe for a bit of shmeckle.

Posted by: Owlmirror | November 16, 2009 12:13 AM

One for the chemists:

The Periodic Table of the Elephants

Posted by: aratina cage | November 16, 2009 12:40 AM

Lynna, A.Noyd, and Dustman, thank you for the information on how Mormons categorize Jezeus. I'm more confused than ever about it (heh) mostly because I haven't given it much thought before (which is how they like their beliefs approached, I think). And to Sven (#145) for the reassurance that I am not alone. My original thought was to prepare for future Mormon missionaries a statement of the sort "you do not believe X is a god, so you are an atheist with respect to X", and I was hoping Jesus would fit to drive home the point, but this is much more complicated than the yes or no I expected (say it ain't so, I know — total ignorance on my part with expectations of a coherent answer knowing full well that no Xian theological answers have ever made sense).

I think I'll try out that live chat you suggested, Lynna (#140). Will let you know if it works out. A little surfing around on that website led me to this little blurb:

Mormons Worship Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. His gospel is the only path whereby we can return to our Heavenly Father.

Posted by: bastion of sass | November 16, 2009 12:56 AM

Sphere Coupler wrote:

I like the chorus best, cause it's in your own words.

And, I like the verses the best because they're in your own words. There's such an honesty in them. Even if you never told us what really made that day so terrible, other than breaking-down like that on a hot day made for one lousy birthday, your recounting of the rather mundane details still suggested to me frustration, pain, regret, sorrow.

The best poetry, and lyrics, comes from real emotions and real story-telling. And your words truly were poetry.

Posted by: Kseniya | November 16, 2009 1:27 AM

I've been away, and know nothing about the other absentees.

Pay no attention to the earth-covered shovels in the trunk of my car. Move along. Nothing to see here.

Posted by: Rorschach | November 16, 2009 1:48 AM

Sarah T,

what exactly are you planning to rebut?
Talking to brick walls is most often futile due to the nature of brick walls in general.

If you can be more specific, I'm sure people here will try to point you in the right direction, but just posting garbage videos is not very helpful.

Posted by: Sarah T | November 16, 2009 1:57 AM

I think what grates me most about the video is that he (and Christians as a whole) are being hard done by when people say "happy holidays". As if it's a direct attack on them, rather that what is really is. Rather than seeing it as a equivalent to saying "have a good day" it becomes a religious statement.

The other part that bothers me is the whole ownership of Christmas. Yes it's a Christian name, and yes we do probably get it from the fact that part (Not the whole) of our countries heritage (I'm in Canada by the way) is Christian, but that doesn't mean they own it completely. By making it a national Holiday it was opened up to be used by the whole nations, Christian and heathens a like. I would really like to be able to back this last point up with some documentation.

I hope that's clearer, thanks for getting back to me,

Sarah

Posted by: Rorschach | November 16, 2009 2:06 AM

Why can't you just point out that "Christmas" is essentially derived from a pagan ritual, burning Yule logs and all that?

Noone knows the birth date of Jesus, or if the guy ever existed in the first place, so Dec 25 is more likely to be the date of the winter solstice.

This whole christmas thing is just as wrong as the "the US was founded as a judeo-christian nation" business.

Posted by: bastion of sass | November 16, 2009 2:08 AM

Rorschach wrote:

Missing in action( i notice Kseniya made a brief cameo appearance upthread, so won't list her here) :

SC
Smoggy
Ichthyic
Josh

If I find out that they're somewhere partying together, and the rest of us weren't invited, I'm going to be really really disappointed.

Especially if the party includes one or more of the following: Spanking, oral sex, sodomy, bacon, grog, half bottles of whiskey, dueling harmonicas, and cream cheese. But if they're partying with all of those, but without us... :-(

Nevertheless, I hope they're having a good time.

Posted by: Lynna | November 16, 2009 2:16 AM

A little surfing around on that website led me to this little blurb: Mormons Worship Jesus Christ Jesus Christ is the Son of God. His gospel is the only path whereby we can return to our Heavenly Father.

Take a look at their page that includes "stories" from supposedly regular mormons (videos shot using trained actors, so the ex-mo's say). The menu page for the stories features folks of all colors and types. But the mormon church has so few blacks and asians that normally you can't find them in a statistical roundup. Yet, there they are, featured on the story page. It's a miracle.

Here's real news about blacks in mormondom:

Africa's 'Mormon superstar' is LDS Church's first black African general authority -- The Salt Lake Tribune/April 16, 2009 -- By Peggy Fletcher Stack
     Joseph Sitati grew up as a Quaker in Nairobi, Kenya, but felt no great affection for the faith. Its sermons were too political, he felt, leaving him thirsty for spiritual satisfaction. ... "When I was baptized into the LDS Church in March 1986, I was overwhelmed by the feeling of love," Sitati recalled. ... Some 23 years later, Sitati, a Mormon superstar in Kenya, has now arrived ... in the First Quorum of Seventy. He is the first black African to join that august body, the church's second most important tier of leaders.

Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | November 16, 2009 2:33 AM

To Sarah T,

You can tell your uncle that this whole notion of a "war on Christmas" is just a projection of the twisted idea that Christians are being persecuted (while all at the same time they are the majority.) Christianity is still as pervasive in Christmas as it was when the missionary converted the Germanic Pagans and adopted their traditions. Just go to any Christmas Aisle and you will find so many Christian theme decorations (crosses, the nativity scene, angles from Abrahamic mythology), Christmas cards containing bible verses, and songs about Jesus' birth. Saying that there isn't any Christian element to Christmas any more is like saying that there aren’t Christian billboards all over the place (I pass by several on my daily commute.) The reason we have things like happy holidays or seasons greeting is due to the fact that Christmas is a national holiday (and therefore must be secular and appeal to people of all/lack of faith) and also that it isn't the only holiday celebrated during that time span. If Christians wanted to, there are more than enough Christian theme Christmas things for them to consume.

Posted by: Lynna | November 16, 2009 2:44 AM

I sense a planned PR campaign to clean up the mormon rep regarding the whole anti-gay thing. Now Fox News is reporting that LDS Church Does Not Have Influence on the Issue of Gay Rights

Let's see, we had Apostle Dallin Oaks giving that strange speech at BYUI in which he compared mormons to blacks in the civil rights era, saying mormons were persecuted for exercising their right to vote on gay marriage issues. Oaks made a point of implying in the speech, and confirming in a separate interview, that Mitt Romney was persecuted for his religion.

Next we had the announcement that the documentary about prop 8 (produced by gay ex-mormons, see comment #257) was about to come out; and at the same time the LDS Church announced that they are "leaders" in the cause of anti-discrimination because they agreed with Salt Lake City Laws banning discriminating against gays in housing and employment.

As perhaps another preemptive strike, BYU has dissolved student political parties. I think they wanted to dissolve only the Democrat clubs, but figured that "enforcing political neutrality" was the only acceptable way to go about it.

Liberty University did ban just the Democrats, leaving the Republican student organization intact.

Fox News, Focus on the Family, the Catholic League, and the mormons seem to be working together, with a shared understanding of how to shape the news.

The LDS PR factory fed that story to Fox News. Rachel Maddow, please rescue the News.

Posted by: Lynna | November 16, 2009 2:53 AM

Fox News might want to do some fact checking by listening to this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWCum9yQhTg

Basically, the video shows the mormons caught red-handed, paying for and planning the prop 8 campaign.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 16, 2009 3:01 AM

Talen Lee, if it's for T-Schirts, then definitely go with "erras ergo christos"; it's a PERFECT t-shirt slogan :-)

also, quote like this:

<blockquote> blahblahblah </blockquote>

Posted by: Rorschach | November 16, 2009 3:04 AM

Disturbing news :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6577858/Brothel-worker-and-reality-TV-star-found-murdered.html

Another pregnant woman was also shot and burned there. They don't know who did it yet.

Posted by: Mr T | November 16, 2009 3:12 AM

I'll cast my vote with Jadehawk. Just ignore my confused ramblings earlier. However, please note the Latin spelling is "christus", while "christos" is Greek.

Erras ergo christus
Q.E.D., bitches!

That right there is a quality t-shirt, my friends. /channeling the ghost of McCain

Posted by: Phodopus | November 16, 2009 4:00 AM

By the way, is there going to be a hardcover version of this thread dynasty? We'd just have to ask everyone who has commented in it for approval I suppose, the rest is simple...

Posted by: not a gator | November 16, 2009 4:04 AM

"There are limits to my patience for those two. I'd better take a break, I can feel my incivility about to erupt."

Lynna, I read that as "feel my invincibility about to erupt" and that sounded pretty awesome.

Posted by: JeffreyD | November 16, 2009 4:14 AM

Kseniya, so glad to see you and your quirky sense of humour back. Don't be a stranger, please. I seriously miss SC and have not heard from Patricia or Mrs Tilton much as of late. Since I have been out of touch for a bit, it may be my fault for not reading carefully.

As for the nonsense about the Winter Saturnalia, I doubt that anyone can say anything to make xtians/gawd botherers lose their martyrdom complex. They have discovered that it feels good and helps protect them from thinking about the issues. I think it really is that simple. Therefore, arguments are useless.

When my sister goes on about gawd, and she is not often obnoxious about it, I just nod and agree that she has a right to her viewpoint until she gets tired of being patronized and quits. We then tell each other, "I love you", and it ends. This works inside families pretty well. With outsiders, I either ignore or tell them to fuck off, depending on mood, time and circumstance. One time in ten I find someone who might actually listen and then I will engage in serious discussion. Usually it is a waste of time, but I do believe I have "saved" several "souls" from being religious.

I won't pray for any of you. Ciao

Posted by: Bone Oboe | November 16, 2009 4:24 AM

All the talk earlier in the thread about spanking, oral sex and bacon...I couldn't resist.

It took so long to remember just what happened.I was so young and vestal then,
you know it hurt me,
but I'm breathing so I guess I'm still alive
even if signs seem to tell me otherwise.
Got my hands bound,
my head down, my eyes closed,
and my throat's wide open.
Do unto others what has been done to me,
Do unto others what has been done to you,
I'm treading water,
I need to sleep a while.
My lamb and martyr, you look so precious.
Won't you come a bit closer,
close enough so I can smell you.
I need you to feel this,
I can't stand to burn too long.
Released in this sodomy.
For one sweet moment I am whole.
Do unto you now what has been done to me.
Do unto you now what has been done...
You're breathing so I guess you're still alive
even if signs seem to tell me otherwise.
Won't you come just a bit closer,
close enough so I can smell you.
I need you to feel this.
I need this to make me whole.
Released in this sodomy.
For I am your witness that
blood and flesh can be trusted.
And only this one holy medium brings me piece of mind.
Got your hands bound, your head down,
your eyes closed.
You look so precious now.
I have found some kind of temporary sanity in this,
shit blood and cum on my hands.
I've
come
'round
full circle.
My lamb and martyr, this will be over soon.
You look so precious.
You look so precious now.
You look so precious...

Posted by: Walton | November 16, 2009 4:57 AM

'Tis Himself,

in Britain the coffee's undrinkable.

Now that's unfair. British coffee used to be bad when my parents were young, but in my lifetime it's improved a lot with the widespread introduction of Italian coffee-making techniques. (I'm typing this while drinking a cup of coffee, in fact...)

Posted by: JeffreyD | November 16, 2009 5:07 AM

Rorschach #339, thank you for the update. As you may or may not know, I had a rough Autumn and have not kept up that well. Details on my blog, but this is not a suggestion to read it unless you are truly bored, just FYI. From what I have seen, you appear to be doing well and keeping the fire to the feet of the trolls.

Not yet contacted or arranged to meet with Walton as I only recently got back. I doubt he ever will be willing to meet, he has had plenty of offers. I am more interested in trying to get up to Aberdeen to meet the fascinating Knockgroats. Ever time we have had a meeting scheduled here in the south, something has intervened. Guess the easiest thing will for me to go up north. I am sure there are cheap flights.

Patricia - I have not been following the blog closely so was not aware of your family issues. Please accept my condolences, my dear lady.

Ciao y'all

Posted by: Bernard Bumner | November 16, 2009 5:13 AM

Now that's unfair. British coffee used to be bad when my parents were young, but in my lifetime it's improved a lot with the widespread introduction of Italian coffee-making techniques. (I'm typing this while drinking a cup of coffee, in fact...)

There is still plenty of bad coffee to be had in the UK, depending on the laziness of the Starbucks employee pissing it out...

Still, I've had bad coffee in the US and Italy, too. Mainly of the shit-brown, tar-textured type which sulks in the bottom of a glass pot at those bottomless-cup places. Too hot to drink, then instantly cold, and only to be consumed by straining it through one's teeth because they use crappy, cheap filters.

Wow! I'm glad I got that off my chest...

Posted by: Rorschach | November 16, 2009 5:41 AM

erras ergo christus

I had 5 years of Latin in school, and this sounds wrong to me.Maybe Owlmirror can shed some light?

@ 344,

I am more interested in trying to get up to Aberdeen to meet the fascinating Knockgroats.

Hm, Im going to Europe in June '10, I would be up for that !!

Posted by: Rorschach | November 16, 2009 6:36 AM

JeffreyD,

a pint of Scotch?
It takes me a year to drink that much spirits, I'm a beer man !
I'm sure they'll have beer where we go...:-)
I went to England for the first time in 2006, and have never been to Scotland or Ireland yet,hoping to do that next year.

Posted by: JeffreyD | November 16, 2009 6:42 AM

Rorschach, no problem, a pint of your choice, a pint of mine. (grin)

OK, off of here for a here, time to brave the wind and get out among the populace.

Ciao

Posted by: aratina cage | November 16, 2009 7:04 AM

Mr T #332

channeling the ghost of McCain

Re: the War on Christmas

Apparently War-on-Christmasteers are OK with "Seasons Greetings" for some reason (according to a really crazy one on Greg Laden's blog). They freak out hypocritically, though, when you bring up the solstice or winter season, like with "Happy Solstice Celebrations!" and "Merry Midwinter Festivities!" And who can forget the real reason for the season — PRESENTS — or as Cartman sang (to the tune of "O Holy Night"): "Je-sus was bo-orn, and so I get some presents. Thank you Je-sus for be-eing born!" :)

Posted by: Dancaban | November 16, 2009 7:37 AM

Where's Ariadne when you need her?

Posted by: Sili | November 16, 2009 8:14 AM

Pity. If I can afford to go to Paris next Summer, I won't have time, and if I have time, I won't be able to afford it.

Of course, I could recoup some of the investment by snapping surreptitious photos of David to sell to the needy Pharyngulettes and Pharyngulinas, but I'd still have to make the down payment first.

Unless of course someone can fix a halfway incompetent chemist up with a job in that city of cities? (Or is that Rome? Not that I'd mind working there, either, my Italian is just even more nonexistent than my French.)

Aberdeen sounds nice, too. Don't they have oil there?

Posted by: Cosmic Teapot | November 16, 2009 8:30 AM

Did someone say drink?

Posted by: o-p-e | November 16, 2009 8:52 AM

Aratina,
Mormon theology is rather dense and incomprehenible. One of the real fun facts is that they trumpet the fact we all have “free agency”, but they don’t seem to like to let anybody use it. Actually, IIRC one of the reasons Jesus is better than his “spirit brother” Satan is that Jesus wanted us to have free agency and Satan just wanted to make it so people had to follow god’s plan. Anyway, after spending the first 23 years of my life in Utah it still makes no sense to me.
Lynna,
In a parallel to your Mariott comments earlier, the mormon’s had an anti-porn conference up in Idaho, including a session in Rexburg. You should have gone. http://www.sltrib.com/ci_13795054?source=most_viewed

Posted by: Alan B | November 16, 2009 9:31 AM

#227 Alan B & #296 Dustman

Glad Dustman got the idea. The rest of you: is it the answer to the question:

Question: What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?

Answer: I don't know and I don't care!!

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 16, 2009 10:14 AM

Spank the Turkish spambot!!!

("Europe Esthetics". LOL.)

I don't know and I don't care!!

Rāmen.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 16, 2009 10:31 AM

working backwards:
oo! oo! K sighting! Hi K!!

windy @254: Sure wish I knew what we were talking about, because it soundes interesting.

Posted by: Aratina Cage | November 16, 2009 11:21 AM

I suspect, from the little I know, that Mormonism is less intellectual

Hint: the Holy Prophet's named "Joe Smith."

Posted by: dNorrisM | November 16, 2009 11:50 AM

Hello, Sorry for OTP ;-) but I just read a biography which most fans of '70's SciFi would like: James Tiptree Jr. The double life of Alice B. Sheldon- I hadn't realized how fucked-up she was.

It has Pygmies and Dwarfs and plenty of lesbians. I don't recall a specific reference to bacon, but one of Tiptree's characters is nicknamed Piggy. Also it features "a giant octopus-like creature removing a young woman's golden brassiere."*
What's not to love?

*From a 1939 Amazing Stories issue, if memory serves correctly.

Posted by: blf | November 16, 2009 12:05 PM

Did someone say drink?

No, not tonight, thanks. Two days ago I discovered a friend of mine (with whom I'd lost contact) had just opened (the week before) a new bar with fine selection of Belgium beers. I'm still recovering…

Posted by: Lynna | November 16, 2009 12:44 PM

Jadehawk, I don't want to unnecessarily alarm anyone, but in looking for a condition that would describe being unable to process language, I found this:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91861432

The difference is that Jill Bolte Taylor, a neurosurgeon, describes being unable to parse written language. So, this may not apply.

Posted by: Lynna | November 16, 2009 12:57 PM

I could recoup some of the investment by snapping surreptitious photos of David to sell to the needy Pharyngulettes and Pharyngulinas

Posted by: Dianne | November 16, 2009 1:08 PM

Also it features "a giant octopus-like creature removing a young woman's golden brassiere."*
What's not to love?

The golden brassiere. Ouch! Esoecially on cold mornings.

Posted by: Dianne | November 16, 2009 1:19 PM

Especially. Spelling, feh, who needs it?

Posted by: blf | November 16, 2009 1:36 PM

<s>Like this.</s> produces Like this.

Posted by: Sarah T | November 16, 2009 2:29 PM

@Rorschach #316
This is exactly the kind of rebuttle I plan on giving but I need sources! I've heard this kind of information for a while now, but feel like a shitty critical thinker because I have not demanded papers backing it up. Do you know of non-internet source for this information?

@ 386sx #331
I know there's not a lot I can do. I guess part of this is for my own comfort in at least presenting the other side of the story. I'm not expecting him to change his mind. As a pastor I think he made his choice quite a while ago.

One tactic I have been considering is comparing it to saying "have a good weekend". No one has a problem with that even though Sunday is considered "God's Day" by Christians. But they've become use to that being a secular event so no one cares.

@Gyeong Haw Pak #332
I like the direction you are taking this argument with the the whole Germanic Pagans and all that. Again I really need to be able to point to something concrete for where I found out this info. Any suggestions?

Thanks to everyone for answering, it's really helpful

Posted by: blf | November 16, 2009 3:16 PM

[The "Windows scrappage scheme"] turned out to be about double-glazing …

As I read your insightful comment, I was guessing it would be about aerodynamic bricks.

Posted by: 386sx | November 16, 2009 3:32 PM

This is exactly the kind of rebuttle I plan on giving but I need sources! I've heard this kind of information for a while now, but feel like a shitty critical thinker because I have not demanded papers backing it up. Do you know of non-internet source for this information?

You could try references from the wikipedia article.

Here's a highly interesting page at ccel out of Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc3.iii.x.iv.html?highlight=christmas#highlight

You might even find more interesting things at ccel, which is a compendium of Christian writings going all the way back nearly to the time of Christ himself.

One tactic I have been considering is comparing it to saying "have a good weekend". No one has a problem with that even though Sunday is considered "God's Day" by Christians. But they've become use to that being a secular event so no one cares.

That's a mighty good point. How come he isn't more worried about the "war on Sabbath"? Christmas isn't even in the ten commandments. Where are his priorities? And why isn't he worried about Santa and mistletoe and all those other graven secular images? (Maybe he is, who knows.)

Posted by: Aratina Cage | November 16, 2009 4:02 PM

Wowie! The Scienceblogs people have been updating the commenting system today. You can now edit your Moveable Type profile directly by clicking on your name where it says "Thanks for signing in, _your screen name_."

Posted by: SEF | November 16, 2009 4:06 PM

I noticed the posting form at the bottom of the page suddenly changed (about an hour ago?) during the wait for one of my posts to go through, ie it went in one layout and came back in another! I haven't tried the login yet though. It didn't seem to be necessary even on the post I made after the change had occurred.

Posted by: Aratina Cage | November 16, 2009 4:13 PM

SEF, ya, I noticed that changeover too because it suddenly said I was signed out, but when I clicked on "sign-in" it automatically signed me in without taking me to a different page. It's also why I tried clicking my screen name after it signed me in. I don't think our names were hyperlinked before, were they? Preview looks different, too. A darker background maybe? (BTW, I misspelled Movable Type in my last comment yet again. Sorry.)

Posted by: SEF | November 16, 2009 4:20 PM

Some people's names were hyperlinked - eg the TypeKey/typepad ones led to that system's profile page.

NB This time (ie on the very next page refresh) I suddenly did have to sign in in order to comment (no textbox visible - and I didn't try to fake one). However, it went very smoothly instead of the usual frustrating sequence of faulty pages, error messages and retries.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | November 16, 2009 4:20 PM

I had signed in via TypePad this morning, and that dissappeared with posting reformat. But, clicking on the sign in link above the comment window restored the sign in. Any sign in appears to be one of the last things loaded, so if your system is slow, like mine at work, it may not be readily apparent if you are signed in or not until the page is completely formatted.

Posted by: RickR | November 16, 2009 4:27 PM

Yay!!!!!

Thanks, blf!!

*smiles*

Posted by: David Marjanović | November 16, 2009 4:35 PM

I had to sign in, too, to make the comment box even appear. PZ has not mentioned turning registration on again. Vorauseilender Gehorsam? (Does the ScienceBorg software now guess PZ's wishes in advance and obediently fulfill them before PZ has said anything?)

Posted by: David Marjanović | November 16, 2009 4:37 PM

Of course, it's not any faster than before. Perhaps even slower.

So I'm back to having to pretend I have a blog... :-(

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 16, 2009 4:47 PM

I've thought about dysphasia some more. To some degree, I appear to have auditory photographic short-term memory: I can listen to stuff and parse it 5 seconds later. That's what I do with French phone numbers: vingt-sept trente-six quatre-vingt-douze spoken at the usual Parisian insane speed… hang on a second… 27… 36… 80 + 12 =… wait for it… 92.

But, yes, try sleeping more. Kseniya can fill in during your absence. :^)

I had 5 years of Latin in school, and this sounds wrong to me.

Not to me. It's the best way to say "you're wrong, therefore Christ".

And I had 6 years of Latin in school. :-Þ

I am more interested in trying to get up to Aberdeen to meet the fascinating Knockgroats.

Hm, Im going to Europe in June '10, I would be up for that !!

Maybe we can all meet at my thesis defense :o)

seriously though, if I can avoid it, I'd rather not be stuck during the World Cup in this uncivilized country

Jadehawk, I don't want to unnecessarily alarm anyone, but in looking for a condition that would describe being unable to process language, I found this:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91861432

Posted by: SEF | November 16, 2009 5:02 PM

@ Dania #407:

That's a new test entry (at #138001 it's 10 newer than PZ's latest of #137991) which they've back-dated to make it behave as though it's older and not appear on the front page. From the time-stamps of posts onto it, it was probably made around the time of the switch-over.

NB I realised a while back that my previous "hour ago?" was an over-estimate because I think I was already watching Jeeves And Wooster when the change happened and was still watching when I commented that it had happened! So half an hour would be more like it (back then) and hence would match the time-stamps well.

Posted by: David Marjanović | November 16, 2009 5:35 PM

Ahem...

No, he didn't.

(Credit, dammit. I been robbed...)

Oh shit. I just googled for caledonian tc site:scienceblogs.com/pharyngula and didn't find an earlier occurrence! I've been spewing falsehoods for the last three years! :.-(

However, I didn't comment in the thread where you coined it. That's very good evidence I never read it. =8-)

And what the hell is this?

LOL! That's a honeypot for spambots! :-)

oh, I see how it is.

<grin till above the glasses>
<gleeful rubbing of hands>

I had 7 1/2 years of latin

How does that work? Surely you didn't have to repeat a year? <duck & cover>

Anyway, I'll try to go to bed soon. I had to get up earlier today and will try to use this opportunity to shift my entire rhythm forward by 2 hours. Will be interesting to see how long I can sustain it.

Posted by: Sven DIMilo | November 16, 2009 6:09 PM

sniny new comment box.
no sign-in

Posted by: Aratina Cage | November 16, 2009 6:40 PM

Hilarious Lynna. Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imdOcHGDvQk#t=0m53s

Posted by: bastion of sass | November 16, 2009 6:54 PM

Rick R wrote:

Help me if you can, please..... I'm getting the hang of using html tags in my posts.... nothing fancy, just bold, italics, things like that.

If you use Firefox, try the Text Formatting Toolbar (and, yay, the previous misspelling "formating" has been changed, so it's easier to find.) It makes adding tags so much easier.

Posted by: Alan B | November 16, 2009 7:07 PM

Good night, good people!

Posted by: Janine The Ineffable, OM | November 16, 2009 7:11 PM

Were any of you Zappa fans aware of this?

David. Sniny! How could I have forgotten that?

Posted by: Janine The Ineffable, OM | November 16, 2009 7:21 PM

Oops! Sven said sniny first. I should be spanked for just dropping in on a thread like that.

Sniny sniny
Sniny boots of leather...

Posted by: Ken Cope | November 16, 2009 7:57 PM

OMFZ! Next, you'll tell me a burnt weenie sandwich isn't a tasty little sucker!

Posted by: 386sx | November 16, 2009 8:11 PM

We all know what happened to Rome after they started celebrating Christmas...

Just sayin...

Posted by: Owen | November 16, 2009 8:53 PM

The War on Christmas ended years ago. Santa (an anagram of Satan, of course) defeated any attempt to keep December 25th at all sacred at least in the early 20th century if not before.
Anyone who still cares is at best fighting a heroic rearguard action, and at worst is like the Japanese soldiers who refused to believe they had been defeated and were still hiding in the jungles of south-east Asia waiting for reinforcements that never came...

Posted by: Dustman | November 16, 2009 9:04 PM

I got nothing.
Just wanted to use the shiny new comment box.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | November 16, 2009 10:28 PM

Very sniny. Looks great.

Posted by: Sarah T | November 16, 2009 11:09 PM

War on Christmas!

Thanks you guys! This was exactly the type of information that I wanted. I'm definitely looking forward to being well prepared to defend my position.

That said my mom got wind of my first attempts at first comments on the video. She was not pleased, so much as very offended and hurt. As much as a part of me wants to tell her to suck it up because i haven't said anything that isn't factual, a bigger part of me hates making her hurt/mad. Damn my Canadian complex.
I feel like I've stood my ground with her but that further discussion would do a lot of damage to our relationship. Disappointing.

So sorry for the diary entry, but i figured people would be a little curious about the results. Take comfort in knowing that I'm totally OK with hurting the feelings of people that didn't directly contribute to my existence/childhood.

Posted by: Stanton | November 16, 2009 11:33 PM

What a horrible thing to say, Nerd.

What did hunters ever do to you to deserve such a horrible thing to waste their bullets on? I mean, besides having poached your hair, then stuffing and mounting it over a fireplace mantel.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | November 17, 2009 12:34 AM

I mean, besides having poached your hair, then stuffing and mounting it over a fireplace mantel.

Yeah, you're right Stanton, the Lyin' is a waste of a bullet.

Posted by: Aaron Baker | November 17, 2009 12:42 AM

I think this thread needs some livening up.

Herewith, my dig at Robert Frost:

EARWAX

Something there is that doesn’t love clean ears:
That loads the moist earwax in fragrant seams
And makes of dry a tickling, crystal feather.
I know that there’s no winning, yet insert
My Papermate as deep as it will go--
Back . . . . Forth . . . . No, I’m not tired of earwax wars.
My neighbors on the bus all pull away;
No doubt they wish they’d chosen other roads.

Posted by: Rorschach | November 17, 2009 12:51 AM

I think this thread needs some livening up.

How about an uplifting Bukowski poem :

Alone With Everybody

the flesh covers the bone
and they put a mind
in there and
sometimes a soul,
and the women break
vases against the walls
and the men drink too
much
and nobody finds the
one
but keep
looking
crawling in and out
of beds.
flesh covers
the bone and the
flesh searches
for more than
flesh.

there's no chance
at all:
we are all trapped
by a singular
fate.

nobody ever finds
the one.

the city dumps fill
the junkyards fill
the madhouses fill
the hospitals fill
the graveyards fill

nothing else
fills.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | November 17, 2009 1:02 AM

Nerd of Redhead:

With the holidays coming up, maybe we could talk PZ into a round of two of Survivor Pharyngula for the Ilk's Squidmas present. I have sweet dreams of, say, throwing the Lyin' Lion to the big game hunters.

Oh, he's a special brand of idiot. Although he did make me laugh with his latest argument: "my religion is theism!"

Posted by: Lynna | November 17, 2009 1:15 AM

@435

I miss orgies.

Posted by: Sanction, Inherent Antonym | November 17, 2009 1:28 AM

A while back, Lynna, you mentioned that you live in Idaho. You must live close to the Utah border, then, to receive the radio stations that you do, I would think. Or is there some unique atmospheric phenomenon happening amidst the Rockies?

Posted by: Lynna | November 17, 2009 2:00 AM

Jon Stewart catches Fox News in yet another bit of Faux News broadcasting -- this time they used footage from a rally two months ago to make a November rally look bigger.

Posted by: Lynna | November 17, 2009 2:28 AM

mormon porn humor (posted by Bob T. on an ex-mo site, original source not known). TBM = True Believing Mormon:
TBM checking into a Marriott:

TBM: "I want the porn channels into my room to be DISABLED!"

Desk clerk: "Sorry, Sir. All our porn is just the normal stuff."

Posted by: madbull | November 17, 2009 3:50 AM

Apparently in my country India, only politicians get away with breaking the law. Monkey's dont.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/latest-news/orissa-villagers-file-case-monkey-025

Posted by: mythusmage | November 17, 2009 4:02 AM

Here's the real secret of 2012, it's the bicentennial of the start of the War of 1812. Or, as the Brits call it, The Empire Strikes Back.

In 2012 London will start celebrating the good old days when Britain cleaned America's clock and embarrassed Washington. All this as part of a plan to so anger the American government that President Pelosi (successor to President Biden who is successor to President Obama) is forced to declare war on the mother country. The ultimate goal being to get the UK conquered by the US so British subjects can enjoy the protection of the US Constitution and nanny state British laws can be overturned.

Expect a big NRA memebership drive the United Kingdom as part of this scheme.

Posted by: Rorschach | November 17, 2009 4:23 AM

All this as part of a plan to so anger the American government that President Pelosi (successor to President Biden who is successor to President Obama) is forced to declare war on the mother country

Alan Kellogg, your GP needs to stop messing with your meds man.

Posted by: SEF | November 17, 2009 7:55 AM

Nom nom nom.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | November 17, 2009 10:40 AM

Trying to stop myself from masturbating by tying one hand to the bed and imagining myself covered in writhing worms ...

Hawt!

(/Obvious response is obvious...)

Somewhat more seriously--or, quasi-seriously, at least--do any of the psych folk around happen to know if there's any kind of work been done checking for correlations between, say, specific religious upbringings and specific paraphilias?

(/Just wondering. I mean, it just sorta seems... possible that might turn somethin' up, anyway...)

Posted by: Lynna | November 17, 2009 11:58 AM

@455

Trying to stop myself from masturbating by tying one hand to the bed and imagining myself covered in writhing worms ... NO NO NO! STOP! I DON'T WANT TO REMEMBER!!

One of the other suggestions from the apostles for avoiding masturbation was to get out of bed and start praying. This would lead to associating prayer with sex, which could make for interesting Sacrament meetings.

As for the "tying one hand to the bed" bit, I think a study needs to be done on the incidence of ambidexterity in mormons.

Posted by: Lynna | November 17, 2009 1:03 PM

I don't know about everyone else, but I am charmed by the rotating goldfish in the comments of 386sx. See comment #390, for example.

Posted by: Lynna | November 17, 2009 1:39 PM

Mormon women have been known to stand up and fight back. For example, Sonia Johnson was excommunicated for criticizing the LDS Church on its anti-ERA stance in 1979.

Here's a current example: Kate Kelly, who is up in arms about BYU (Brigham Young University in Utah) shutting down its Women's Research Institute. She doesn't hold back in denouncing the action, and she is not fooled by the "sham" PR which claims that the program will be better for having been dissolved.
Excerpt:

I have seen many comments from people in the past few days that it is a shame that BYU is closing its Women’s Research Institute. I think that it is not only a shame, but also a sham. The official claims from the school are that the dissolution of the Institute will actually increase support of, funding for, and emphasis on women’s studies. This is emblematic of the doublespeak the BYU administration has perfected in response to concern over many issues. Less is more. Closing is just a way of beginning anew. We are shutting this program down because we find it so, so very important.
     It is this same doublespeak that is used to simultaneously compliment and limit women in the church.

Posted by: Lynna | November 17, 2009 1:56 PM

Self-healing surfaces: Human skin is a self-healing surface. But what about metals? Can we engineer a self-healing metal surface? Scientific Computing reports:

Engineers are working on transferring the self-healing effect of skin to materials. The idea behind this is to introduce evenly distributed fluid-filled capsules into the electroplated layer — rather like raisins in a cake. If the layer is damaged, the pellets at the point of damage burst, the fluid runs out and ‘repairs’ the scratch. Until now, these plans have failed due to the size of the capsules — at 10 to 15 micrometers they were too large for the electroplated layer, which is around 20 micrometers thick. The capsules altered the mechanical properties of the layer.
     Researchers from the Fraunhofer Institute for Manufacturing Engineering and Automation IPA in Stuttgart, together with colleagues from Duisburg-Essen University, have developed a process for producing electroplated layers with nano-capsules, in a project being financed by the Volkswagen Foundation. At only a few hundred nanometers in diameter, the capsules are measured on another scale entirely, compared with previous results.

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 17, 2009 2:22 PM

Actually, the two goldfish in comment 390 have different attitudes in Safari for Mac.

Posted by: Aaron Baker | November 17, 2009 2:30 PM

Sebum, not "cebum." Sorry.

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus | November 17, 2009 2:41 PM

Dear Atheist Brothers and Sisters,

Excuse my long absence, I have been setting up a new evangelistic mission (you can read about it over on the new Ray Cumfart thread). Has anything interesting happened? Have any of you let Jesus into your hearts and become Christians? Have any of you tried a new sexual position? Floyd Rubber recommends "the split-bamboo thrust and rippling lotus".

Yours in Christ
Smoggy

PS Did someone say there was a thread about pissing standing up? I've never tried that, but I did once experiment with shitting upside down.

Posted by: Stanton | November 17, 2009 2:44 PM

Japanese atheism in action

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus | November 17, 2009 2:49 PM

I missed you too, Luscious Lynna,

The life of a missionary is lonely and exhausting. But what can I do? My heart belongs to Jesus (thankfully He's less interested in my tumescent bits).

Posted by: SEF | November 17, 2009 3:00 PM

the two goldfish in comment 390 have different attitudes in Safari for Mac.

More contented, coquettish, grumpy, assertive ...?
;-)

Posted by: Owlmirror | November 17, 2009 3:25 PM

The Roman question is: is she Juno, Venus, or maybe Ceres? Cybele or Isis even?

I think that Juno works.

PS: "prochronism" is a neat word.

Posted by: Lynna | November 17, 2009 4:29 PM

Daniel Peterson, professor of Islamic studies and Arabic at BYU has been called in to testify in the case of Elizabeth Smart. Smart was abducted and raped by Brian David Mitchell, who claims to be a Prophet, and therefore not guilty. http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13802306

Only in a Utah court would Daniel Peterson be considered an expert in anything. In this case he supposedly is providing reliable principles and methods for determining who is a false prophet and who is not. Mormons should all be expert in this area, right?

Peterson is also one of the mormon apologists whose publication credits are mostly from FARMS (mormon apologetics factory) journals. Peterson is basically blind when it comes to truth and to the rigors of real research.

Posted by: Lynna | November 17, 2009 5:08 PM

Brian David Mitchell should have claimed that an angel holding a flaming sword over his head made him do it. That's what a real prophet would say.

Posted by: Aratina Cage | November 17, 2009 5:29 PM

Japanese atheism in action -Stanton

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus | November 17, 2009 6:42 PM

Dear Jadehawkom

Floyd Rubber has just started a supercharged home-delivery espresso service from the back of his semi-trailer.

Would you like me to send him around to tend to your needs? You'd be amazed what he can do with a jet of steam and a froth maker.

Smoggy

Posted by: Lynna | November 17, 2009 7:59 PM

'Tis Himself, at about half an hour into the video linked to in #495 Christopher Hitchens opens with a sailing metaphor/story. Thought of you, tacking to starboard.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | November 17, 2009 8:23 PM

Sorry, Lynna, I couldn't hear Hitchens well enough to follow the story. Unfortunately, I could hear D'Souza perfectly, which was annoying in more ways than one.

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 17, 2009 8:27 PM

Halftime! *jazzhands, whatever that means*

Posted by: Lynna | November 17, 2009 8:38 PM

JoAnn Hibbert Hamilton, mormon woman, is working hard to keep the cover of Cosmopolitan and other salacious magazines covered in your grocery store. If you doubt the mormon connection, check out this page on Hamilton's website. She spends several paragraphs rousing the troops and doesn't get to the meat of her message, obscuring magazine covers, until later (see the text that begins after "Fifth Frame").

As Hamilton progresses in her screed disguised as research, the whole speech degenerates even more. She states as fact that stores deliberately place magazines with soft porn covers lower on the shelves, at a child's eye level.

Hamilton quotes Elder Russell M. Ballard as saying in 2003, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Hamilton is a devotee of Judith Reisman. You only need one example of Reisman's work to peg your irony meter: The Pink Swastika as Holocaust Revisionist History, Judith A. Reisman, Ph.D., The Institute for Media Education. The book puts homosexuals front and center as a cause for the rise of Nazism. http://www.drjudithreisman.com/archives/pink_swastika.pdf

Credit for doing a far more thorough job than I have done here of investigating this supposedly pro-family propaganda goes to an ex-mo named terrijo.

Posted by: boygenius | November 17, 2009 9:56 PM

Rachel Maddow just had a rather unsettling interview with Frank Schaeffer addressing the dangerous rhetoric flying around the evangelical crazysphere. Schaeffer calls them out on their culpability in the event something happens to Obama.

Rachel opened the segment with a mention of this site: http://www.cafepress.com/psalm109_8 , where you can buy T-shirts, hats, bumper stickers, and even a teddy bear (how cute) emblazoned with:

Prayer For Obama
Psalms 109:8

If you look up Psalms 109:8, you really can't help but notice Psalms 109:9. Nice sentiment for a teddy bear. Poor fundie kids can't even have stuffed animals that don't preach hatred.

Posted by: Lynna | November 17, 2009 10:14 PM

My comment @502 "The book puts homosexuals front and center as a cause for the rise of Nazism." should have read "The book review puts homosexuals front and center as a cause for the rise of Nazism."

Posted by: Aratina Cage | November 17, 2009 10:51 PM

Sili #497, sorry you didn't like the tune. I haven't read Full Metal Alchemist before, but I do think that learning about how Japanese pop-culture irreverently treats the concept of gods and Christianity itself is very helpful on the journey from Christianity to atheism. (But by that sentiment, I do not mean to imply that you were ever a believer.)

Posted by: Stanton | November 17, 2009 11:17 PM

Aratina is right: you have to be more proactive in order to combat Japanese theists. You have to do more than just disbelieve their god to get rid of it, especially when it's 50 stories tall and very, very upset over how you've rattled its minions' collective cage.

Posted by: boygenius | November 18, 2009 12:30 AM

Lynna, it appears that the Aryan Nation is attempting to rear it's ugly head again in northern Idaho. Spear-headed by a troglodyte named Paul Mullet, they are buying up real estate and distributing white-pride propaganda in an attempt to pick up where Richard Butler left off. Video clip here: http://www.ktvb.com/news/local/64298677.html

I've been trying to come up with something effective that those of us in the southern regions of the state can do to help combat teh stoopid. Any suggestions?

Posted by: strange gods before me ॐ homintern radfem | November 18, 2009 1:01 AM

You've got to plan for the long term. There might not be a whole lot you can do to drive them out quickly if the Aryan Nations are more careful about obeying the law this time.

Challenge casual expression of racism whenever you encounter it, from friends, family, coworkers, strangers. Just make it understood that racism is not acceptable and not normal in your community. It'll probably take another century or two, but this is how we win.

Posted by: boygenius | November 18, 2009 1:27 AM

sgbm:

Challenge casual expression of racism whenever you encounter it, from friends, family, coworkers, strangers. Just make it understood that racism is not acceptable and not normal in your community. It'll probably take another century or two, but this is how we win.

I do just that in my day to day life, but casual expressions of racism (stereotyping, etc.) are on an entirely different level than what these people are espousing. Call it a lack of virtue, but I don't have the patience (not to mention the stamina) to wait another century or two.

Posted by: boygenius | November 18, 2009 3:26 AM

Lynna:

...I still think we need to know what they are printing, what they're saying, and what they're doing before we decide what how much combat is needed.

It's not what they're printing and saying that disturbs me. They have the same freedom of speech that I do. What concerns me is that they are actively trying to acquire property to establish another compound in Idaho.

Eight years ago, the civil court was able to do what the criminal court could not: bankrupt the Aryan Nation, tear down their compound, and scatter them to the winds. If they are able to get a foothold and become entrenched again, we have to start from scratch. I know they have every right to buy property. I'm trying to imagine a "civil" way to convince them that they are not welcome, their views are not welcome, and there will be no sanctuary for them in the great state of Idaho.

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | November 18, 2009 9:42 AM

I'm curious, What does the pharyngula community think of this view of the world?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqfvUA2vRAM&NR=1

Posted by: Lynna | November 18, 2009 10:25 AM

boygenius and strange gods, I looked through a bit more of the coverage this morning. It does look like the Aryan Nation is being much more careful this time around. That will make them harder to prosecute.

I notice that they still use terms like "mud people" and that they have no hesitation about targeting the Jews.

They don't allow reporters to attend their monthly meetings, and that needs to change, or it needs to be circumvented. What they say and do in public skirts the edge of what is allowed as free speech. What they say in private may go over the line and qualify as promoting violence. (I think what they say already promotes violence of the "let's threaten him with a pit bull" variety, but we need more than that.)

It's unlikely that they'll start shooting at people again, or beating people up. Still, their borderline hate speech and intimidation tactics are probably enough to keep them in court. Money is the key. A counter organization with ample funds and legal expertise needs to keep the Aryan Nation tied up in court.

The Bureau of Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives needs to be given enough information to trigger frequent searches of whatever compound(s) they set up.

The fight against prejudice is also helped by education that counters the misinformation on their website. The fight has to be completely legal and above-board so that they'll have less reason to play the persecution card.

You could set up a facebook page and a website where people could anonymously post comments and tips, and where photos and videos could be used to counter the "mud people" crap.

Look at the campaign that PZ highlighted in the "What to do about Ray Comfort's Origin give-away" thread. We could do something like that, plus more. Find the guys who spearheaded the previous lawsuit.

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | November 18, 2009 10:40 AM

I agree, he is wise in this area, but what of the part where he speaks of the trees...this was core to the fight that was waged by me and biologist in my area(I lost) or shall I say WE lost against the Gov. and the Corporations. (part of the reason I had lost faith in humanity)

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 18, 2009 11:12 AM

I'm curious, What does the pharyngula community think of this view of the world?

Replace "tree" and "community" with "keystone species" and "ecosystem", and it's ordinary textbook ecology.

Which doesn't mean that it shouldn't be repeated. In fact, even the utterly obvious must often be stated again and again.

Posted by: Lynna | November 18, 2009 12:31 PM

More info about militias, aryan nation types, ultra conservatives, and mormons (boygenius may be interested):

Research W. Cleon Skousen (Glenn Beck's darling), former Salt Lake City police chief, founder of the Freemen institute which was later named the Center for Constitutional Studies. According to authors Thomas Robbins and Susan J. Palmer ("Millennium, messiahs, and mayhem"), Skousen was a prolific author of doctrinal books on Mormon eschatology and prophecy, but is not an advocate of violence. However, many of his students are associated with militia movements.

Robbins and Palmer note that Skousen and other ultra conservatives belong to the mainline mormon church and have no desire to leave it. (See Paul Mero for a current example, and my comment #245). "Most of them advocate a pastiche of antigovernment sentiment and apocalyptic oldtime Mormonism."

Research should include N. Samuel Sherwood, a mormon who is "perhaps one of the most high-profile militia advocates in the United States" -- he founded the Constitutional Militia Association in Idaho, then later disbanded it. He said he was non-violent, and then out of the other side of his mouth he advocated the death penalty for homosexuals.

Research should include Colonel Bo Gritz, a convert to mormonism. This guy ran for president (Populist Party) in 1992 and received 28,602 votes in Utah. He bought 228 acres of land in northern Idaho, near Kamiah, with the idea that he would build a mormon millenarian community. Gritz left the mormon church in 1994 after church leaders told him to obey the laws of the land.

Mormon millennialism is a seed around which militias form. But most of these groups splinter off from the main church. The Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 resulted in an investigation that roped in several mormons, including Bo Gritz.

The videos and news reports to which boygenius provided links feature Mullet of the Aryan Nations. This guy tries to distance himself from the LDS Church. Why would any mention of the LDS Church be necessary, unless church leaders were pressuring him to say something? It's all several layers deep.

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | November 18, 2009 3:12 PM

So your saying that you agree with ecological efforts, in general?

Posted by: Paleos | November 18, 2009 3:36 PM

Oh my goodness, I just skimmed through this entire portion of the thread and it took a while. Serves me right for not starting to read it when I saw the post originally.

I think this part of The cursed undead heart of the vengeful bride of the son of the thread that will not die should be collectively dubbed "Lynna's postings", because she has kept on top of it and commented intelligently on pretty much every topic that has come up. I realize that she has posted before, and I'm late to the party again; sorry.

I went to several religious retreats over the years, much to the chagrin of my mother who raised me in an almost totally secular environment, before deciding that none of the religions appealed to me and I was pretty happy leading my life without teh crazy. Anyway, the mormon camp was one of the weirder ones when it came to the religion part, but one of the most fun as far as the people went. I actually enjoyed it a lot, even the dance at the end where no one really danced much because they're apparently not supposed to. Thank you Lynna for trying to give sense to the mormon way of thinking, but I suspect it is a losing battle.

Alan B. I think I am falling in love with you're mind, the Wallace post combined with the continued creationist geology updates make me thrilled every time I see your name at the top of a post. Alas, it would never work out between us as my brother's name is also Alan so anything beyond loving your mind would kind-of creep me out.

Talen Lee, that t-shirt design sounds amazing put me down for an order whenever you actually make them!

Hopefully though I am late I can still get in on the bacon spanking lesbian bible oral sex.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 18, 2009 4:00 PM

One can never, ever, be "late" to The Thread.
Verily, it rolls on and on, unheeding of our puny human notions of "early," "late," or, indeed, of "time" itself. For although The Thread includes timestamps, it is not bound by them. Comments may appear in some apparently chronological order, but this merely masks the more interesting themes and undercurrents of the conversation; these underlying Truths and Topics are not tethered to time at all and can only be perceived, if dimly, by jumping around the various subThreads at random.

Hope this helps.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 18, 2009 4:10 PM

Set up camp in your favorite café?

"favorite"?!

there's only two "cafes" in town(and I'm not counting the truckstop); a starbucks, and a place with opening hours during my sleeping time.

Posted by: boygenius | November 18, 2009 4:28 PM

Lynna, thanks for the info. and suggestions. I am vaguely familiar with Skousen and Sherwood. Col. Gritz, of course is fairly well known.

Part of the reason Paul Mullett caught my attention is that I remember him from when I lived in Minnesota in the late 90's. He was arrested for some sort of anti-semitic nonsense. Upon doing some more digging this morning, it appears that he's such a piece of shit that even his own White Brothers can't stand him. Apparently, the white power movement has more schisms than you can shake a stick at. This e-mail correspondence is full of lulz: http://wikileaks.org/leak/aryan-nation-2009/msg00021.html

And they say atheists have a deep rift problem!

Posted by: llewelly | November 18, 2009 5:03 PM

Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus | November 17, 2009 2:41 :

PS Did someone say there was a thread about pissing standing up? I've never tried that, but I did once experiment with shitting upside down.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | November 18, 2009 5:44 PM

Jadehawk, Walton. Got home and took a peek at what Consumer Reports had to say. They just had coffeemakers (Jan '09 issue), and gave Michael Graves (40304), Mr. Coffee (JWX27), and DeLonghi (DCF-212T) as best buys.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | November 18, 2009 6:00 PM

I've just discovered that Edmund Burke's most famous quote was probably never said or written by him. Wikiquotes claims:

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
This is probably the most quoted statement attributed to Burke, and an extraordinary number of variants of it exist, but all without any definite original source. These very extensively used "quotations" may be based on a paraphrase of some of Burke's ideas, but he is not known to have ever declared them in such a manner in any of his writings. It may have been adapted from these lines of Burke's in his Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents (1770): "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 18, 2009 6:15 PM

Jadehawk, Walton. Got home and took a peek at what Consumer Reports had to say. They just had coffeemakers (Jan '09 issue), and gave Michael Graves (40304), Mr. Coffee (JWX27), and DeLonghi (DCF-212T) as best buys.

however, DeLonghi seems to be a reputable company in general, so maybe I'll look at some of their products

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 18, 2009 6:24 PM

How about a French press (or is that "Freedom press"?)

:-p

yeah, I need something that produces the same volume and strength of taste, but with a bit less punch, or else I'll end up with a 48 hour sleep cycle; and we already established that lack of sleep isn't good for me, hehe

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | November 18, 2009 6:48 PM

do they work on ceramic top electric stoves?

Yep. That's what I'm using mine on right now.

... re how they work, it looks like Wikipedia has a page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moka_(coffee_pot)

... believe mine is a Bodum Chambord (they also do french presses, with the same name, but this isn't one)--it's a one-cup. Heavyish steel walls, think it was around $60, not sure.

When you consider you *do* need to clean pump machines, too, the only real drawbacks of the stovetops are (i) the time they take (a few minutes) and (ii) it is a bit fiddly getting good crema (all about the grind, the temperature, I think). Oh, and (iii) watch the temperature, and I hear you can't let them sit too long, or you'll be up for a gasket replacement there, too. But honestly, I'm notoriously absent minded, have actually forgotten mine a few times, and I haven't quite managed to do it in yet, so they can take some punishment, apparently.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | November 18, 2009 7:01 PM

... correcting: mine's a VeV Vigano Inox. Or so it sez on the base.

Posted by: Carlie | November 18, 2009 7:22 PM

I don't quite understand this "coffee" of which you all speak, but I knocked my teapot off my desk a few weeks ago and broke it and have been bereft of good caffeine ever since, so I empathize.

Posted by: llewelly | November 18, 2009 8:33 PM

yeah, I need something that produces the same volume and strength of taste, but with a bit less punch, or else I'll end up with a 48 hour sleep cycle; and we already established that lack of sleep isn't good for me, hehe

Posted by: windy | November 18, 2009 10:17 PM

*short of cowboy-style and straining the grounds w/ teeth, of course. We are civilized people here, after all.

ahem!

"Cowboy Coffee is coffee brewed in a standard cooking pot without special equipment or filters; because of this simplicity it is often made by campers. It is the most usual method of coffee preparation in Finland and Norway"

That's probably not accurate anymore, though. It's possible that nowadays some people even have these 'espresso machines' you speak of. At least in the bigger towns.

Posted by: Ken Cope | November 18, 2009 10:55 PM

I knew Sven had good taste. I use a #6 Filtropa in the Melitta cone, dripped directly into the top of my (pre-warmed) Zojirushi thermos carafe. Chemex is also a great way to go.

If you want to look like a mad scientist, go for vacuum extraction. It can be quite theatrical:

http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.brewers.vacuum.php

For the last six months or so, I've been home-roasting my own green beans, which taught me how much I didn't yet know about coffee. Averaging $5 a pound, green beans stay fresh for a year (as opposed to a week to ten days for roasted whole beans, or three hours after grinding).

I'm making a quick little 16mm film to edit in Final Cut Pro, to document how I home-roast green beans, grind them, and use a vacuum extractor to make a damned fine cup of coffee.

Posted by: Epikt | November 18, 2009 11:06 PM

Or this.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 19, 2009 12:48 AM

Jadehawk, I hate to mention them, but my machine is a Starbuck's. It's really an Italian machine, so it has been working reliably for the last five years.

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 19, 2009 9:03 AM

Fascinating to watch caffeine addiction from the outside. Caffeine mostly just removes its own withdrawal symptoms (...and I seem to be immune against the rest, strangely).

So your saying that you agree with ecological efforts, in general?

You don't, or what? ;-)

<raising index finger>

Pet peeve alert: ecology is merely the science of what ecosystems do; "is", not "ought". The word you're looking for is conservation – applied science.

I don't know where she gets the time

Time, young padawan, isn't something you have. It's something you steal.

http://wikileaks.org/leak/aryan-nation-2009/msg00021.html

LOL! What is it with those antisemites that they always spell Isreal? Is that an institutionalized Freudian slip – it's real despite their wishes?

Also, someone there can't spell László.

And do they really trust Hotmail?!?

Posted by: Lynna | November 19, 2009 11:46 AM

"Tis @544: Thanks for extra info about the quote: maybe-by-Burke, and maybe not. Close enough for our purposes. Certainly, we can rule out a mormon apostle in 2003 as the source.

Posted by: Lynna | November 19, 2009 11:54 AM

Jadehawk

I'm at the point where I may have decided that hi-tech sux; the more parts something has, the more likely it is to break :-p

Warning: if you use the cowboy method, toss the last sip of coffee out instead of drinking it (there are always some dregs in the cup). This is best done with a swift sideways motion of the cup, sending the last tablespoon or so of coffee out into the windy wilds.

Further warning: do not stand close to my brother when he is finishing a cup of coffee.

Posted by: Lynna | November 19, 2009 11:59 AM

Hey, Sven @557, that's how I make my coffee when I go camping. Unless I'm desperate, I don't drink my brother's cowboy coffee.

Posted by: Lynna | November 19, 2009 1:14 PM

Whoops. Texas has accidentally banned marriage for everyone.

"This state or a political subdivision of this state may not create or recognize any legal status identical or similar to marriage."
     Architects of the amendment included the clause to ban same-sex civil unions and domestic partnerships. But Radnofsky, who was a member of the powerhouse Vinson & Elkins law firm in Houston for 27 years until retiring in 2006, says the wording of Subsection B effectively "eliminates marriage in Texas," including common-law marriages.

Posted by: SEF | November 19, 2009 1:51 PM

Just be glad you don't have Baldrick (from Black Adder Goes Forth) making your coffee.

Posted by: Alan B | November 19, 2009 3:23 PM

“Share and Enjoy”

Just as a reminder, we are on Part 2 of comments on:

“The fossil record: becoming more random all the time” by John Woodmorappe, CEN Technical Journal, 14(1), 2000, 110-116.

available at:

http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j14_1/j14_1_110-116.pdf

Part 1 (#393) gave some background to what the “Share and Enjoy” series is about but by all means go back through the eternal thread to get a fuller idea of what I am trying to do.

I have given you a chance to read the paper:

“You lucky people!”

So, this is what I feel about it and where it stands in the corpus of Flood geology.

Again, John Woodmorappe (pseudonym) is a traditionalist in Flood geology. Thus, he believes that virtually all the life we see in the fossil record was contemporaneous. Everything from the late Precambrian to the Quaternary, 2.6 Ma.

Abstract

”The reality of the geologic column is predicated on the belief that fossils have restricted ranges in rock strata.”

I know this is only the first sentence of the Abstract but already I feel unhappy. What does the author mean by “the geologic column”? He does not define the term in the paper. From the way he uses the term he seems to regard it as being consistent with the division of geological time into a series of time slots in sequence. This, of course, is a nonsense to those who regard the Earth to be 6000 years old and those rock layers not created during creation week were formed by the flood within a year or so (with an ice age probably tacked onto the end to cope with the rocks from 2.6 Ma to more or less the present).

Again, what does “predicated” mean? He seems to suggest (and I think wants us to take on face value) that the whole concept of this geological time sequence stands or falls on the belief (science = religion, as usual) that fossils have restricted ranges in rock strata.

”In actuality, as more and more fossils are found, the ranges of fossils keep increasing. I provide a few recent examples of this, and then show that stratigraphic-range extension is not the exception but the rule. The constant extension of ranges simultaneously reduces the credibility of the geologic column and organic evolution, and makes it easier for the Genesis Flood to explain an increasingly-random fossil record”

The purpose of the paper, therefore, is to present information to cast doubt on the 4.57 Ga Earth by showing a few fossils are not in the “right place”.

First Section ?Introduction

The author starts by giving away the shop!

”Different kinds of fossils do not occur randomly. Instead, they tend to be found at specific horizons, and these horizons can be located in rocks all over the world. For example, the evolutionist asks us why a layer of rock containing trilobites is never found to contain dinosaurs, and why a layer with dinosaurs is always found above one with trilobites and never the reverse.”

Great questions! I could add a few more:

Why are there no rabbits in the Precambrian?
Why are their no human or primate fossils in the Paleozoic?
Why are there no trilobites mixed in with sea-floor fossils in the Mesozoic?

But I digress!

”For approximately the last two hundred years, this succession of fossils in sedimentary rock has been used to argue that the earth has undergone successive events. For instance, trilobite-bearing beds are supposed to reflect a time when trilobites were the dominant life form on earth, and dinosaur-bearing beds are supposed to reflect a time when dinosaurs were dominant on the earth.”

True, but only in part. That there is a succession is also shown by other factors, such as radiometric and other types of dating. But, have no fear, Woodmorappe has a treatise dealing with that (see his exchanges with Schrimmer referred to in part 1 where Woodmorappe looses his cool and calls his critic [a fellow Christian] a whole variety of names and looses the game by using “Nazi” first). Also, OECs (such as Glenn Morton) have shown fossil landscapes deep within the “flood deposits” with valleys and deltas and other features of a mature landscape formed during the Flood.

”However this view is weakened because the range of fossils from one supposed time period keeps extending and overlapping fossils ostensibly typical of another period of time in the past. In this article, I will examine some examples of increases of overlap of fossils that are assigned to different geologic periods of time.”

So, the author has evidence that the range of fossils through time changes as more areas are investigated and our knowledge becomes less incomplete. Quelle suprise! I am shocked, shocked I tell you!! How could that possibly be so? /sarc off.

Implications of fossil succession

Or, more accurately, how has YEC flood geology reacted to the “... discovery that there are successively different types of fossils ...”? Initially, by moving away from the one Flood to a succession of creations and global floods. Quite correctly Woodmorappe points out that this “violated Scripture” (the ultimate guide as I have pointed out in the last incarnation of the eternal thread).

Woodmorappe then asks the question:

”Is the succession of life-forms, over long periods of time, the only way to explain the succession of fossils in earth’s sedimentary rocks?”

and answers it:

”Certainly not. Creationists, including myself, [Ref.1] have provided a variety of alternative explanations for fossil succession.”

This is where it starts to get [even more] irritating! Ref. 1 is one of 5 references to a book written by Woodmorappe, “Studies in Flood Geology”, 2nd edition 1999. No attempt to refer to anything open to anyone to follow up. Buy the book or you won't understand the argument. Sorry, chum. I have based these comments about Flood geology on information freely available to anyone (sometimes admittedly with a bit of searching). No payment, no special requests or special privileges. I want to cover material which is available to anyone who wants to follow it up.

To be fair, many articles in the peer reviewed literature are behind paywalls but usually there is a free Abstract which [sometimes] tells you as much as you want to know. Similar paywalls (in the form of requiring a paid subscription) are applied to some, but not all YEC material. I will have a go sometime at making a list of what is and is not freely available.

Here it's a dead end. He does not even give references to other work which is in the open YEC literature. Thanks a bunch!

”All of these mechanisms do away with the notion that horizons of fossils demand successive passages of time during which the organisms lived.”

Do they, just? Well bully for them! Just don't expect me to accept that without a bit of evidence. Still, it's not a key part of the argument (Ed.** In which case, why did he say it?).

Being a key member of the “traditionalists”, the author cannot hold back from a swipe at the Recolonisers or those who support the European/British model (i.e. of a flood that ends during the Palaeozoic and hence does not have to explain a flood origin of part of those rocks and all the Mesozoic and most of the Cenozoic). They are personna ono grata, “beyond the pale”

”Unfortunately, some modern creationists have also bought into the belief that successive fossils represent horizons of time. These neo-Cuvierists have, as their original namesakes, relegated the Noachian Deluge to only a small fraction of the earth’s fossiliferous sedimentary rocks. This contradicts common sense as well as Scripture.”

With which I am inclined to agree but at least their approach pays some passing attention to the overwhelming evidence of the geology that they see every days in Britain and Europe. And, of course, they do not believe in the multiple floods and re-creations of Baron Cuvier!

That's enough for now. I'll get this posted and put some more up when I can.

**Ed. For those new to “Share and Enjoy”, Ed is my alter ego who keeps putting scurrilous and sarcastic suggestions in my mind. He can usually be safely ignored. In this case, I agree with him/it/id, whatever.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | November 19, 2009 4:11 PM

The penalty for revealing the grip is your life.

Noted. But how's that going to be a threat to your average Mormon?

(/Seein' as, so much as I've noticed, they don't so much have a life to begin with.)

Posted by: Lynna | November 19, 2009 4:48 PM

We've noted before the connection between conservative politics and fundamentalist religions. Paul Mero, über mormon and Sutherland Institute President, made the connection clear:

     "I'm a conservative because I'm a Latter-day Saint," he said Wednesday while speaking to a small group of University of Utah College Republicans at the Marriott Library. "Explicit in this claim is that there is a strong relationship between Mormonism and conservative intellectual thought."
     Because the church has all the answers to the purpose and meaning of life, Mero said, Latter-day Saints "know what it means to be human beings." That knowledge has the potential to correctly govern moral issues, including some that are also political.

Mero, formerly a Libertarian, said he has been a "student of conservative thought," constantly researching possible implications of various political moves that stand to uproot basic LDS values. He opposes the recent action of the Salt Lake City Council, which made changes to its nondiscrimination ordinance to include sexual orientation and gender identity, although the church commended the move.
     "Authentic conservatism is, at its core, a cluster of prioritized values or principles that enable men to govern justly in a truly free society," he said.

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 19, 2009 5:02 PM

Jadehawk, have a look here.

Skull length: 50 cm.

Download the paper on the Cretaceous Saharan crocs by right-clicking on this link and choosing Save Target As. The pdf has 27.3 MB because of its great figures.

Whoops. Texas has accidentally banned marriage for everyone.

ROTFLMAO!

They are personna ono grata

Personae non gratae :-)

Posted by: Feynmaniac | November 19, 2009 6:08 PM

Whoops. Texas has accidentally banned marriage for everyone.

It may be even funnier than that. It may have banned heterosexual marriage and permitted same sex unions!!!!

On the comment section of Language Log, which I notice some Pharnygulites frequently visit (hi, David Marjanović!), it was pointed out that the two subsections:

A. "marriage in this state shall consist only of the union of one man and one woman."

B. "[t]his state or a political subdivision of this state may not create or recognize any legal status identical or similar to marriage."

if taken together doesn't ban same sex unions. If marriage only consists of a man and a woman then a same sex union isn't a marriage or similar to one. This amendment only bans unions between one man and one woman!

Posted by: Lynna | November 19, 2009 6:43 PM

Local news today included an interview with BYUI housing directors. They have instituted new housing policies.

Students live and learn the principles of Zion in their homes and apartments.

Gee, I wonder if this means that students will have more or less privacy.

Posted by: Alan B | November 19, 2009 6:55 PM

“Share and Enjoy”

Part the third: for previous parts see:

Part 1 #393
Part 2 #578

Just how real is fossil succession?

Here is where the author starts “shouting” at us. In the first paragraph we have:
limited 3 times

And in the second:
many once
minority once

All of this trying to play down the degree of fossil succession (which is limited as we have just heard).

”Since the early days of the acceptance of the standard geologic column, fossils have been turning up in ‘wrong’ places as more and more fossils have been collected, and this process continues to this very day.(Ref. 3, 4 & 5) And even this does not include the numerous instances where fossils are supposed to be reworked from older strata, often with no independent supporting evidence.(Ref. 6)

All of this would have been more impressive if the references have referred to something other than his book (2, 5 and 6) or to brief (1 or 2 page) comments in a YEC journal (3 & 4).

Woodmorappe now gives us 4 recent examples of fossils which have had their range extended into the past.

At severe risk of getting out of my depth and making a fool of myself, here are my comments on his examples:

General:

In each case I have searched for (and found) either the original article referenced by Woodmorappe or its abstract.
3 out of 4 have scale bars in the pictures in the mm range i.e. they are small
2 out of 4 are soft bodied
3 out of 4 come from China

The significance of China is three-fold:

* The country is enormous and there is a lot of un-examined geology(compare with Britain where many large areas [e.g. Upper Carboniferous outcrops] have been explored in great detail to get the best out of mineral and coal resources).

* There is an enormous range of geology in China. Thus, Glenn Morton states:

”I would also like to point out that the majority of the provinces of China also have the entire geologic column. Not every place in these provinces has the entire geologic column, but within each listed province there are areas that do have the entire geologic column.”

* Within the enormous landmass of China there are a number of areas of exceptional preservation (Lagerstätten) which are yielding whole ecologies with many unknown species. The quarries yielding the feathered dinosaurs from the Yixian Formation are only the best known. (For info. See Wiki “Paleobiota of the Yixian Formation”)

In detail:

1.The Dasycladalean algae refers to a non-calcified marine alga found in the Devonian in China. It is shown as approximately sperical with a diameter of about 20 mm.

Abstract:

“ ... Uncatoella possesses a suite of features usually associated with late Mesozoic and Cenozoic Dasycladales, and our proposed relationships imply very large range extensions (200–350 Myr) to some groups. These extended stratigraphic ranges probably reflect the absence of heavily mineralized forms early in the geological history of certain clades. Because the extent of biomineralization in Dasycladales is closely related to cell body architecture, we suggest that there is a representational bias in the group which favours certain morphotypes (densely branched, cortex forming) and which can lead to gross underestimation of stratigraphic ranges and historical diversity.

2. The Pipiscid-like fossil is a soft-bodied metazoan, about 90 mm long.

Abstract:

An important source of information in fossil preservation is the Burgess Shale-type faunas, which provide insights into metazoan phylogeny. Some hitherto enigmatic fossils have unique character-state combinations that can be interpreted as defining major stem-groups. A possible pipiscid is described from the Lower Cambrian of south China. It is a metazoan previously seen only from the Upper Carboniferous.

3. The sketch of the Agnathan suggests it is about 30 mm long.
From the pdf of the article:

"The first fossil chordates are found in deposits from the Cambrian period (545-490 million years ago), but their earliest record is exceptionally sporadic and is often controversial. Accordingly, it has been difficult to construct a coherent phylogenetic synthesis for the basal chordates. Until now, the available soft-bodied remains have consisted almost entirely of cephalochordate-like animals from Burgess Shale-type faunas. Definite examples of agnathan fish do not occur until the Lower Ordovician (c.475 Myr BP), with a more questionable record extending into the Cambrian. The discovery of two distinct types of agnathan from the Lower Cambrian Chengjiang fossil-Lagerstatte is, therefore, a very significant extension of their range. One form is lampreylike, whereas the other is closer to the more primitive hagfish. These finds imply that the first agnathans may have evolved in the earliest Cambrian, with the chordates arising from more primitive deuterostomes in Ediacaran times (latest Neoproterozoic, c.555 Myr BP), if not earlier."

"The extreme rarity (less than 0.025%) of chordates in the Chengjiang assemblages may be because they were active swimmers and could avoid being engulfed by benthic sediment flows that are believed to have been the principal method of burial.

url for pdf: http://www.bios.niu.edu/davis/bios458/Shu1.pdf

4. Therapsid reptile Lystrosaurus

Looking at Fiog 4 in Woodmorappe's paper you might think that whole animals were being reported. In fact the find was a skull which is rather less interesting to those likely to be reading this article. It seems pretty clear, however, that a dicynodont that was believed to have been restricted to the lower Triassic is now understood to have survived over the P/T boundary. That may well be of interest to those working in the area and across the P/T boundary but it is not unknown for animals to have survived the mass extinction: no one has ever stated that all life was extinguished. Woodmorappe's assessment is that:

"At worst, the entire chain of mammal-like reptiles and their presumed progression to mammals will come crashing down. A detailed analysis of the intercontinental correlation of the relevant strata should be undertaken to evaluate this possibility.

A more reasoned assessment is given in the pdf:

http://palaeontology.palass-pubs.org/pdf/Vol%2040/Pages%20149-156.pdf

Summary to Date

So. Four down. Has your confidence in the entire geological timescale been shaken to the core? Can you now see how the concept of a one year Flood with all the life-forms being contemeraneous is so much better than the succession of life and the geological timescale? Are you willing to admit that a Young Earth and the Biblical flood are the answers to the desperate condition the geological column has been left in based on these staggering revelations?

That was the stated purpose of the paper. So far it has left me less than convinced.

Would you be convinced if the sole purpose was to shake one's "faith" in the P/T boundary extinction so that one had to look for an alternative in the Bible? Personally, NO.

Woodmorappe presumably has had a free range to cover anything he wanted in this paper. He has chosen 7 stellar examples (surely, he is not going to choose the worst!?). He claims to have other examples but it is all in a book wot he wrote.

I will have to think whether it's even worth covering the remaining 3 and the rest of the paper.

Any thoughts?

Posted by: Dianne | November 19, 2009 7:08 PM

Little Cthulhu.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | November 19, 2009 7:16 PM

Am I a cowboy? I hate the taste of coffee, but I love eating coffee beans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s05jcrJw0as

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | November 19, 2009 8:27 PM

raising index finger>

Pet peeve alert: ecology is merely the science of what ecosystems do; "is", not "ought". The word you're looking for is conservation – applied science.

Conservation does not include the reclamation or restoration of an ecosystem.

Conservation : a careful preservation and protection of something; especially : planned management of a natural resource to prevent exploitation, destruction, or neglect.

Ecological: a branch of science concerned with the interrelationship of organisms and their environments.

The dodging of the question is more telling than an answer would have been, I can see that their is little if anything you have done with your education to benefit mankind and his environment.

What, if any, is your position in this matter?

I was simply looking for a common ground between us and so far all I see is a educated sideline sitter...prove me wrong!

Jadehawk,
Physiologic and
psychiatric Stress can cause all kinds of maladies, sing, get more exercise,fresh air, and correct food and back away from da coffee slowly...very very slowly.

Posted by: Carlie | November 19, 2009 8:43 PM

AJ Milne - I haven't heard that song in years! And since I wasn't allowed to watch MTV, I'd never seen the video.

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | November 19, 2009 10:56 PM

Patricia-It is good to see your words, my words will not suffice.It is my wish that you are well.

Posted by: Stanton | November 19, 2009 11:05 PM

Alan B, the "pipiscid-like fossils" from Chengjiang were the various fossils of the vetulicolian Xidazoon, in that the rim of its mouth resembled the toothy mouth of the Carboniferous lamprey, Pipiscius, from the Mazon Creek fauna. And aside from superficial similarities between the mouth rims, and that both were marine deuterostomes, there are no further anatomical similarities between the two.

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | November 19, 2009 11:25 PM

*smirk*- I've been there myself, don't stay too long.Would'nt want you to dull your edge...;?)

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 20, 2009 12:02 AM

(which you probably do not wash for fear of ruining the patina).

Whoops. Texas has accidentally banned marriage for everyone.

Well. They did keep saying that gay marriage was a danger to traditional marriage.
I just never thought they'd be right.

I hate the taste of coffee, but I love eating coffee beans.

Jadehawk, have a look here.

Jadehawk, Physiologic and psychiatric Stress can cause all kinds of maladies, sing, get more exercise,fresh air, and correct food and back away from da coffee slowly...very very slowly.

Posted by: boygenius | November 20, 2009 12:58 AM

More Aryan Nations nonsense in northern Idaho:

http://www.khq.com/Global/story.asp?S=11540271

This time it's a felony. Apparently some wunderkind put a swastika sticker on the door of the Human Rights Education Institute in Coeur d’Alene last night.

An insignificant act if taken out of context, but the Coeur d'Alene area was home base to the AN for decades. Folk up there are understandably hypersensitive.

With the recent surge in militias and uber-patriotic groups since Obama's election, I'm pretty sure northern Idaho is going to experience some unpleasant deja vu.

Posted by: Rorschach | November 20, 2009 3:33 AM

This looks like it belongs in the thread everlasting :

Lesbian Vampire Killers

Posted by: SEF | November 20, 2009 5:34 AM

@ "boygenius" #609:

Waddya call the little apostrophe thingys* over the e and a in deja vu

The one which ought to be over the e is called an acute accent and the one which ought to be over the a is the grave accent. The names matter because ...

what is the HTML code to express them?

... when you come to using HTML character entity codes, the named version (rather than the numbered version) relies rather heavily on knowing the correct name!

The general format to get a special character by name is: ampersand name semi-colon

For lower-case e with an acute accent you need &eacute; to get é

For lower-case a with a grave accent you need &agrave; to get à

NB I had to cheat a bit to stop the written out version in each case from turning into the final accented letter too. The ampersand character has its own code name - amp. The same cheat (with lt and gt) is needed to show people how tags work without having the angle bracket characters get interpreted as actual tag delimiters and disappear from view, along with their contents.

Posted by: Lynna | November 20, 2009 10:25 AM

In reference to the comment and link from boygenius @608: You're correct to bring up the connection with Obama's election. The Aryan Nations fools are upfront about that:

A new Web site lists two Coeur d’Alene residents, Jerald O’Brien and Michael Lombard, as leaders of Aryan Nations. Both use the title of pastor, which was also used by Richard Butler, who brought the organization to Idaho from California in the 1970s.
     Mr. O’Brien said a handful of Mr. Butler’s supporters remained in the area after he died in 2004, but kept a low profile. It was the election of Barack Obama as the nation’s first black president that prompted them to begin seeking new members.

The Southern Poverty Law Center reports that there are about 925 active hate groups, which is an increase of 50% from 2000.

Posted by: Lynna | November 20, 2009 10:50 AM

Sarah Palin was born in northern Idaho. Maybe she got a head start there in learning to create an atmosphere that is inimical to logic.

We make fun of Palin's appealing to the Joe-Six-Packs of the world for wisdom, but her followers are still eating that up. I can understand not wanting to be the butt of ridicule for one's lack of education or experience, but I don't think it follows that we want our leaders to be inexpert, ungrounded in history, etc.

Palin is an evangelical christian, and has said that Jews need to get right with God. Most evangelicals think the same way about mormons, but I've seen some mormons trying to claim her for their own, but by roundabout ways, suggesting on their blogs, for example, that her paternal grandparents were mormons. (I didn't find confirmation of this, but in mormondom rumor is often more effective than facts.) Here's an excerpt from a typical mormon blog that takes up the subject of Palin.
No, I make fun of her for what she actually says. My favorites are her put-down of fruit fly research, and her mistaking the Pledge of Allegiance as an oath created by the Founding Father's.

Posted by: Lynna | November 20, 2009 10:58 AM

Rorschach @610

This looks like it belongs in the thread everlasting: Lesbian Vampire Killers

Posted by: Lynna | November 20, 2009 11:05 AM

Damn. I see that in my comment 616 the blockquoted text was magically disappeared. And I managed to do that after all the lessons on html formatting in this thread. Sigh.

Let's try that again. Here's the quote from the mormon/Joe-Six-Packish blog:

What I have noticed about Sarah Palin, is that she has a very unique style of communication. It is not a style, that is respected by the mainstream media. Sarah Palin is being made fun of, because of this, I believe - and for more than even what she has actually said.

Posted by: Lynna | November 20, 2009 12:03 PM

Your Daily Dose of Mormon Madness: Satan is a Surfer? In reference to water, "the destroyer rideth upon the face thereof" -- and some think this is the reason mormon missionaries are forbidden to go swimming.

Yep, you can get a nice Pacific island posting and still not be able to go swimming. Officially, this is the reason you don't get to slide out of those nylon garmies and take a nice dip:

The church takes any necessary precautions to ensure the safety of its missionaries from natural disaster, public health threats or other potentially harmful situations. As a precaution, missionaries are advised not to swim during their missions. -- Scott Trotter, LDS Church Spokesman

When I arrived in the mission I was a ripped 190. When I left I weighed 120. ... When I arrived home, the final note to my mission was the interview with the Stake President to release me where he told me to lie about everything bad. And the sad thing is that wasn't my turning point. I did lie. [excerpted from a 2005 post at exmormon.org]

4 ...there are many dangers upon the waters, and more especially hereafter;
5 For I, the Lord, have decreed in mine anger many destructions upon the waters; yea, and especially upon these waters.
14 Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters.
15 Wherefore, the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters.
18 And now I give unto you a commandment that what I say unto one I say unto all, that you shall forewarn your brethren concerning these waters, that they come not in journeying upon them, lest their faith fail and they are caught in snares;
19 I, the Lord, have decreed, and the destroyer rideth upon the face thereof, and I revoke not the decree.

The true source of the Devil Riding the Waters "revelation" comes to us from diaries that comment on the "ill will", "animosity", "discord" etc. among the ten mormons who went down the Missouri River. Some of them refused to paddle, Joseph's canoe nearly tipped over, Joseph was so frightened that the others chastised him for cowardice. The only way to save face was for Joe to have a revelation that the waters were controlled by evil.

This irrational fear has been pumped up in more recent times by mormon rumors of disobedient missionaries drowning in three feet of water (Satan loves to drown missionaries because they are valiant and are preaching god's will).

Real history: Elder Michael Joshua Bent drowned in 2003 in Samoa. Elder Prymak Joshua Matthew drowned in the canary Islands in 1999. Clarissa Merrifield was drowned in 1843 while being rebaptized for health reasons. Satan, "The Destroyer", and the Devil haven't beat Michael Phelps, nor won any surfing competitions, nor been fined for wakeboarding out of bounds on Lake Powell -- not that I know of anyway.

Posted by: SEF | November 20, 2009 12:41 PM

Ah, but have you started grunting and sporting a squashed, upturned nose; or are the bacon-loving hordes suddenly and unaccountably very attracted to you and muttering about needing to have a barbecue etc? ;-)

And who knows what new properties "big pharma" might have put into it this year anyway!

Posted by: Dianne | November 20, 2009 1:02 PM

Good point, SEF. I'll have to consider the wording of any dinner invitations I get in the near future carefully before accepting.

Posted by: Lynna | November 20, 2009 2:21 PM

Today is my birthday. For today's celebration, the BF will be cooking dinner, stones will be skipped in the Snake River (solitary celebration, for which I'm thinking I should provide libations for one), and mormons have already been outed as hypocrites in the morning post.

Posted by: Aratina Cage | November 20, 2009 2:46 PM

Happy
Birthday
Lynna!

Posted by: Lynna | November 20, 2009 2:52 PM

Awww! Birthday wishes and a cake with greetings that display HTML skills. :-) Looks like chocolate cake too. I have a Devil's Food cake recipe to which I just add a quarter cup of sour cream. Excellent! I suggest cream cheese frosting to top it off. Pink is nice -- good idea that I think I'll manifest in icing reality this afternoon. The BF cannot be counted on for desert, so it's up to me.

Posted by: Owlmirror | November 20, 2009 2:52 PM

Oh, and happy birthday!

Skip those rocks, enjoy that dinner, and so on and so forth.

Posted by: Lynna | November 20, 2009 3:02 PM

Many, many years ago, before Orson Scott Card's writing ability deteriorated, and before I found out that he was a homophobe, and a bad-tempered paranoid right-wing flake, I read the first books of his Alvin Maker series. I liked them well enough then, but it bothered me that the first book especially emphasized that water was the bad guy; the favorite tool of Satan; the embodiment of entropy.

The most recent example of WTF in literature and movies is associated with the Twilight series. It's mormonism's view of chastity, dressed up in vampire and werewolf clothing to make it less like preaching and more like entertainment. The HBO vampire series "True Blood" shows the Twilight series up, makes Twilight look childish. The London Evening Standard called Twilight "Pseudo-religious nonsense, with fangs." Correct, but they may have missed an opportunity to refer to blood atonement.

Posted by: PixelFish | November 20, 2009 3:18 PM

Many, many years ago, before Orson Scott Card's writing ability deteriorated, and before I found out that he was a homophobe, and a bad-tempered paranoid right-wing flake, I read the first books of his Alvin Maker series.

Owlmirror: Honestly, it's been my experience the OSC has kinda gotten worse over time. It's kinda weird, because when I first started reading OSC, it was as a Mormon kid to the right of his politics and his views. (He had written Alvin Maker, but he hadn't started on his Book-of-Mormon-in-Space series yet.) I knew a couple of people who knew him IRL (both from the Mormon side and the publishing side) and I know there was some speculation among segments of the Mormon community where I grew up that he might be excommunicated or leave the church for the things he wrote. (My personal theory is that because of his fame, he was under a stronger personal microscope than many other Mormons, with pressure to outwardly hew to the Church line or lose his family and friends. And the more he hewed outwardly, the more entrenched he became in whatever cog-dis he needed to survive in that culture. It seemingly explains why he's gotten more pathological about certain ideologies.)

I find it ironic, because reading OSC's fiction was one element on my personal road to heresy. His problematic but emotionally strong Songmaster was my first exposure to sympathetic gay characters. (He does some horrific things to the gay characters in Songmaster, so I can't fully recommend it. I'm merely noting where it falls in my personal history.) And because I grew up in the heart of Mormonland when gay folks didn't really feel comfortable being out and about, I didn't know any openly gay people. So OSC's characters (and later Mercedes Lackey's) were my first exposure to not-completely-homophobic world views.

Deeply deeply ironic, given his behaviour in the last decade. I've pretty much stopped reading his new works.

Posted by: PixelFish | November 20, 2009 3:39 PM

Oh, and happy b-day, Lynna!

Posted by: Alan B | November 20, 2009 3:54 PM

Happy birthday, Lynna!

If you want to go off and skim some stones, you do it! I just hope you think how long it took the Snake River to build up those point bars and get a conscience about it.

Put them all back!

[Ed. From the new, greener, more stupid, Alan B]

Posted by: Aratina Cage | November 20, 2009 4:59 PM

-Dania, you might want to post about your sign-in problem on the Aaargh, what have they done? thread. We had a SEED person named Erin Johnson post there asking if people were still getting errors.

-Lynna, big fan of chocolate here. Your Devil's Food cake recipe sounds mouthwateringly delicious.

-Lynna, Owlmirror, and PixelFish, interesting discussion about OSC. I've learned more about him and the possible subtext of his writing than I ever thought possible from Pharyngula. I hadn't considered that he may be a victim of his own success, perhaps driven into raging prejudices by hardline Mormon culture.

Posted by: Lynna | November 20, 2009 6:02 PM

Thanks for even more Birthday wishes, my fellow mortals!

Alan B, I did skip some stones. Please tell Ed that I didn't put any of them back. :-) I had one stone that I had been saving for a special occasion: almost perfectly round, thin, almost perfectly flat. What a beauty. I skipped a few so-so skipping stones to warm up before I sent the perfect stone out for it's watery dance. I'm pleased to say that I did that baby justice! I still haven't bested my 12-15 skips per stone record, but the perfect stone was lovely, with lots of skips, and a beautiful straight line out to the edge of the eddy.

aratina, for my best chocolate cake recipe, just take the "Rich Devil's Food Cake" in the Fannie Farmer cook book and add 1/4 to 1/3 cup of sour cream. The cake will come out not quite as fluffy, a little denser, with a tiny bit of bite to it courtesy of the sour cream. It also seems to me that the sour cream brings out the chocolate flavor. I use "Natural Process Cocoa" from Penzeys Spices. It's a strong, dark chocolate that is advertised as "twice as rich as grocery store cocoa." If you'd like, I could post the entire recipe.

Regard OSC, all that thinly veiled mormon theology truly sucks -- ruins the writing, and makes him more of a star in mormondom.

Posted by: PixelFish | November 20, 2009 6:32 PM

Lynna: The Rodin exhibit kerfuffle happened when I was in college, I think--so about a decade back. (I guess that's recent on most timelines though.)

The irony with my painting was that I painted it at Ricks College (the school now known as BYU-Idaho) under the exact same honour code restrictions that WhyBeYou students had, and it didn't contravene any of them. But people enforcing the Honor Code on living situations in Provo felt that it did, because it "disturbed people" and "caused the Spirit to flee." This was all totally subjective, of course, but is a pretty textbook example of religious rules being re-interpreted even more strictly by the overly zealous.

Posted by: Lynna | November 20, 2009 7:07 PM

PixelFish, thanks for the correction about the Rodin exhibit. Just goes to show how time flies for me. No wonder I think I'm still a teenager.

Causing the Spirit to flee makes PixelFish one powerful painter. I was once told that I shouldn't wear so much black because black clothing attracted negative forces. Think what we could do together!

'Tis Himself, I can drink the demon rum, the demon Jack Daniels, the demon red wine, and the special mormon demon of coffee with the addition of the alcoholic beverage of your choice.

I love the photo of the destroyer USS paul Hamilton riding upon the face thereof, and looking way more powerful than a measly mormon devil/adversary/destroyer.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | November 20, 2009 7:35 PM

I've got to check these back threads more often, if only for the birthday wishes.

Happy Birthday, Lynna! I hope you have a great day!

Posted by: Patricia, OM | November 20, 2009 8:12 PM

Happy birthday Lynna!

I thought about you today while listening to a report on Idaho perhaps getting a new-clear power plant.

Posted by: Owlmirror | November 20, 2009 8:16 PM

(I do have to give Mormons credit for not freaking out about D&D and Harry Potter.

The tail end of Lynna's link to a Mormon-influence review of the Twilight series (which has been moved from the URL it was originally at to here) has the following....