…and this is a 
Sorry, I don't believe in Thanksgiving Day.
This whole notion that one should have vague and aimless feelings of gratitude for the nature of one's existence is just too weird, and the bow-your-head-at-the-table and radiate-blessings-at-the-cosmos tradition is pointless and silly. Don't get me wrong: I can be appropriately and happily grateful to people who have gone out of their way to do good for me — Mom will get a phone call, and my wife will get a hug, and they really are appreciated — but for the most part, our existence is not the product of selfless altruism, and there is nothing out there that can be aware of just how glad you are to be alive, no matter how fawning and fulsome you may be.
The universe is cold and uncaring. You may be grateful that you weren't vaporized by a meteor falling out of the sky this year, but there's no agent out there who will feel pleased that you noticed, and the fact of your general relief that your existence continues will not be a factor in the motion of space rocks in the next year. I am happy that the microbes didn't turn me into a pile of putrefying goo yet, but it wasn't an act of thoughtful kindness on their part, since the little bastards are doing their best to get past my defenses all the time, and all that's keeping them at bay is my constant expenditure of energy to keep my immune system at readiness. And they'll also get me one day, for sure…unless that meteor vaporizes me into a cloud of inorganic molecules with minimal nutritional value first.
We're all doomed. We are currently survivors by luck, sustained by selfish processes, and I don't thank luck, because she (if she were an autonomous self-aware agent, and she isn't) will turn for me or against me without concern for my feelings. Nature is not appeasable, get over it.
That poor bird that most of you will have on your dining room table is a perfect metaphor. It went through its life dumb and mostly content, getting its feed shoveled in front of its face every day, and then last week the machineries of profit began to move, and it found itself trussed on an assembly line. Then a gang of people who were mostly concerned with trudging through another day and making a living wage decapitated it, gouged out its guts, stripped off its feathers, and wrapped it in plastic so you could thoughtlessly stuff fragments of its carcass into your hungry maw. The universe did not rotate about that bird, and neither does it spin about you.
If you're eating tofurkey, you aren't off the hook, either. Think of the soybeans!
So don't sit at your table and think you're being good by warmly thanking an indifferent universe for whatever. It doesn't care. Don't beam happy thoughts at the farmers who stocked your larder — they can't hear you, and they did it for their own personal profit anyway. Above all, don't be hypocritical and radiate gratitude at the corpse of the turkey, since it's dead and during its brief life would rather you hadn't fueled the market forces that led to its execution.
It would be far wiser to sit at that table and contemplate the threats to your existence, and scheme about how you're going to get them first.
Oh, and you probably do have people who have done good things for you, at personal cost, and without carrying out the calculus of profit. If you want to have a day of thankfulness, thank them personally. None of this nonsense of bland, undirected, unfocused, smug gratitude. Share human feelings with other human beings.
Also, gods don't exist, so they haven't done squat for you. Don't waste your time praying to them, either.
Some people seem to be misreading this, and think I'm telling everyone to have a bad day. Wrong: have a grand old day off, I know I am. Just forget this silly business of feeling blindly thankful. Gratitude is to be shared between sentient beings.
If you're feeling this strange sensation of being grateful for existence or for good fortune, though, I wonder…would you be resentful of nonexistence, or place blame for random bad luck?
Comments
Posted by: Random | November 26, 2009 10:33 AM
Okay, in that case, thank YOU, PZ! You've given me the perfect argument to break out the next time my family wants to follow some kind of rusty tradition that, for some reason, means we can only give thanks on one day of the year, and that somehow it's more meaningful that way than it would be if we simply were thankful to the people who deserved it, when they deserved it.
Posted by: FSM devotee | November 26, 2009 10:35 AM
My atheist family uses Thanksgiving as an excuse to get together and have a great meal. And we are all very thankful, in a fortunate awareness sort of way, that we are able to think rationally and most of us don't have to continually fight off vestiges of dogma and indoctrination from childhood. Now THAT is a "blessing."
Posted by: Jack Krebs | November 26, 2009 10:37 AM
I think one can be grateful *for* something without being grateful *to* someone. I like existing, and am glad that a universe exists that is capable of bringing life in general and me in particular into existence. Irrespective of why this universe is as it is (I don't think we can know why - I just accept that it is as it is), I think stepping back occasionally and acknowledging a sense of wonder and gratitude is not inappropriate.
Posted by: Mango | November 26, 2009 10:38 AM
Curmudgeon.
Posted by: Feynmaniac | November 26, 2009 10:38 AM
Yeah, seeing my relatives for Thanksgiving bums me out too.
Posted by: Newfie | November 26, 2009 10:39 AM
Ha! Love the cartoon. Well timed.
Posted by: steven h | November 26, 2009 10:39 AM
I just consider it an autumnal "food day" and have fun filling up with my family while sipping a little wine (and whine). PZ... you are more atheist than me... I feel truly humbled.
Posted by: carax | November 26, 2009 10:41 AM
Every day I am amazed that I even exist; to be able to experience life is enough.
Posted by: Richard Almaraz | November 26, 2009 10:42 AM
This made me happier than anything else these past couple of days. Thanks, PZ. At least I know someone else is thinking similarly.
Posted by: Lindsay Beyerstein | November 26, 2009 10:43 AM
I dunno, PZ. I don't think of Thanksgiving as a time to feel grateful to the universe for my very existence. I think of it as a time to focus on gratitude for the things in life that really are good.
Thanksgiving is the opposite of mystical. At bottom, it's a harvest festival. In the old days, it was essentially a wrap party for everyone who helped feed keep the community alive for another year, which would have been pretty much everyone. These days, most of us don't have much to do with bringing in the harvest, but it's still nice to set aside some time to savor the good things in life.
In our everyday lives, we tend, understandably, to focus on problems that need solving. Spending all our time contemplating what's right in the world would be complacency. But what's the point of tackling all these problems if we don't step back to take some satisfaction in our accomplishments and savor the security and tranquility that our effective problem-solving has gotten us.
Posted by: xenithrys | November 26, 2009 10:43 AM
Not being American, I've only occasionally participated in it with American friends, but I've always thought of it as secular and to do with remembering the good things in life rather than giving thanks for them. Getting together with friends and family is also good.
But is this the first shot of the War on Thanksgiving? It should start every year at Halloween, then the War on Christmas should start at Thanksgiving. Now, when does the War on Halloween start?
Posted by: KI | November 26, 2009 10:45 AM
Well, I dislike relatives, ritual, and have no respect for tradition. That said, I love a good feast, and harvesttime is as good a reason as any, and most of my Thanksgiving dinner was home-grown from the garden, so I thank me!
I usually cook a goose as the bird (less leftover, and goose grease is the best potato frying medium) but they're fifty to sixty bucks these days, and the Canada honkers are too fast to catch by hand.
Posted by: mattincinci
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November 26, 2009 10:45 AM
happy turkey day PZ
will have to remember your post as everyone prays and gives thanks and celebrates
the subjugation of the native american people
by religious white people from a foreign land
Posted by: Molly, NYC | November 26, 2009 10:45 AM
Are you at least going to eat something interesting?
Posted by: CSue | November 26, 2009 10:46 AM
I'm grateful my husband cooks the bird every year. :>
Posted by: Keymaker | November 26, 2009 10:46 AM
Whoa! Come PZ tell us how you really feel about Thanksgiving.
Posted by: Phrogge | November 26, 2009 10:47 AM
And thank YOU, Jack and Lindsay; I toadally agree!
Posted by: Gabby | November 26, 2009 10:50 AM
As a filthy injun, I am thankful to the white devils for allowing a handful of us to survive to modern times. Oh, and for bringing Christianity along so that we could know what lowly sinful mudcreatures we are by nature.
Posted by: dutchdoc
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November 26, 2009 10:53 AM
Oh I see now: this all is just a shameless plug for Phil Plait's book "Threats from the sky".
Right?
Posted by: Chris Hughes | November 26, 2009 10:53 AM
I'm just thankful we in the UK don't have to put up with it... The turkey still gets slaughtered, for christmas, of course.
I do remember a rather bloodless church affair called 'Harvest Festival' from childhood. It was not, as a I recall, particularly festive...
Posted by: DPSisler | November 26, 2009 10:54 AM
Hey PZ, what happened to this year's foodie thread????? Oh, and have a happy (not???) thanksgiving day!
Posted by: mo | November 26, 2009 10:54 AM
I second Jack Krebs, but you can even be thankful to something. You can be thankful for the world, existence, the bird and the relatives. Likewise you can also thank the world and existence because it is awesome, the bird because it is tasty and filling and died for you (also, the soybeans!), and the relatives, because they are nice, there and also awesome.
Sure they did not mean to, except maybe the relatives [:)], but it just happens, and they can't really formulate intend. We are animals who can be thankful, and why not be thankful not only to the end result, but also the unintentional 'helpers'?
I'm not American and don't celebrate thanksgiving, but I occasionally thank my food for unintentionally dying for me. Also, it would be nice if the worms and microbes which consume me after I buy the farm were thankful for it.
Posted by: Richard Eis | November 26, 2009 10:55 AM
Meh, i'm english so i'm saving all my humbugs for the war on christmas.
Posted by: idle.pip.verisignlabs.com
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November 26, 2009 10:56 AM
I'm just thankful to the person who cooked me turkey. Yummy. Just as I am thankful for whoever cooked me a steak the day before, or a bowl of soup. Direct thankfulness is OK in my books. A mystical undirected thanks to the cosmos is just a waste of time.
But, on the other hand, in this society that thinks Deepak Chopra has something to offer, its a good way to take advantage of their simple mindedness and get a free stat holiday, on the proper day, on the second monday of October.
Posted by: Samphire | November 26, 2009 10:56 AM
Humbug!
Posted by: Iris | November 26, 2009 10:57 AM
I thank YOU PZ, and the regular commenters on this blog, for the knowledge you share, and especially for the sense of community you create here every day. I can always count on this place for a "Wow." (And/or a good laugh!)
Posted by: Hans | November 26, 2009 11:00 AM
Geez, who pissed on your turkey?
Posted by: Esve | November 26, 2009 11:01 AM
A thought-provoking rant indeed! :D On the one hand I am a bit startled, since of course such razor-sharp words do not befit the popular notion of a cuddly, nonthreatening, PZ (there you are, shedding that teddy bear image one post at a time). On the other hand, you have an excellent point. Thanksgiving, no longer even the harvest festival it was intended to be, is more or less an empty notion, and an excuse by both the god-crazy and the godless to shop, watch football, and gorge themselves along with family and friends.
What I hate most about it though is not the thanking of the vague deity, but the cute, cuddly propaganda of 'look how well the Pilgrims and 'Indians' got along, without even mentioning that those pious European settlers would decimate the Native American population, cheat them out of their land, and try to convince them that they were just following orders (from god).
Posted by: gski | November 26, 2009 11:02 AM
Thank you chef Boyardee, for the can of Mini-Bites I'm about to have. amen
Posted by: Thomathy | November 26, 2009 11:04 AM
I celebrate it as a Canadian ...in October, like it ought to be. It's a decent excuse to throw a themed dinner party, cook and bake. I'll take any excuse to throw a themed dinner party.
Does anyone actually celebrate thanksgiving to give thanks to vague entities that don't exist? It must be in America.
Posted by: Cuttlefish, OM | November 26, 2009 11:04 AM
http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/2007/11/atheist-gives-thanks.html
(yeah, it's an old one)
Posted by: who is your creator
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November 26, 2009 11:07 AM
Dear PZ,
My heart goes out to you in regard to your comment:
"We're all doomed. We are currently survivors by luck, sustained by selfish processes, and I don't thank luck, because she (if she were an autonomous self-aware agent, and she isn't) will turn for me or against me without concern for my feelings. Nature is not appeasable, get over it."
Yes, the world gives us NO hope, but it is NOT our home and we are just sojourners passing through.
"We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." 1 John 5:19
God has given you a better way through Jesus, but you are blinded by your own pride and rebellion and choose not to accept this free gift:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph 2:8,9
When we are saved, Jesus gives us peace, but not in this world because it's full of sin. Jesus gives us peace with God instead and that peace gives us eternal life in Heaven ... and yet produces anger towards us from the unsaved:
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household." Matt 10:34-36
We are hated because of the name of Jesus, but we will still love you, pray for you, and most of us would lay our lives down to pull you out of the fire.
May you see and hear these words in love,
In Christ,
Julie Haberle
Who Is Your Creator
See the Genesis Account of Creation:
http://whoisyourcreator.com/genesis_account_of_creation.html
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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November 26, 2009 11:08 AM
With just the Redhead and myself, I keep trying to talk her into just a turkey TV dinner instead of cooking the big bird. Unfortunately, she sees planovers...
Posted by: anonymous bloger | November 26, 2009 11:09 AM
As well as Thanks Giving, its also the day another batch of catholic child abuse and cover-ups have been revealed:
It's a disgusting situation. The churches priority is clearly to protect its self and that shows no sign of changing. The man responsible for many years has been cardinal and now pope Ratzinger.
The world must learn that you can't trust churches any more than any other group of creepy old men.
http://carnifexinsania.blogspot.com/
Posted by: ButchKitties | November 26, 2009 11:10 AM
Ditto to what Jack Krebs and Lindsay Beyerstein said.
Posted by: Sandra S | November 26, 2009 11:12 AM
Either way I'm certainly thankful for you, PZ. Try not to get eating by microbes... or lynched.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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November 26, 2009 11:12 AM
Ah, quoting a myth. That really impresses us.And the myths and delusions never stop. No evidence for your deity or Jebus. Both exist only in your imagination.We see your words for what they are, the lies of a delusional fool.We have, and know that it, like the whole babble, is nothing but fiction. Come back with some real evidence.Posted by: Joffan | November 26, 2009 11:13 AM
An excuse for a party... let's celebrate the year! And we'll do it again on December 31!
Any "stop for thought" occasion like this can also be used for futute plans, so here's a suggestion. The four seasonal parties, spring, summer, fall and winter, could be loosely associated with young people, families/mid-life, old people, and future generations respectively. So this one here is time to contemplate old age, the elders among your relatives or community, retirement plans, etc. It's a bit close to the winter party though.
Posted by: EboTebo | November 26, 2009 11:13 AM
I'm happy that I've just been hired full time after almost six months of scrappin'. It's no bodies fault but mine! Plus, I've two "thankful" feeds I'm a going to, to be happy and thank those around me for puttin' up with my mopin' and howlin' these past months. Oh! And no make believe, universal mobsters will be even thought of, at least by yours truly.
Posted by: BlueFairy | November 26, 2009 11:15 AM
"Julie Haberle
Who Is Your Creator"
So apparently Julie is your creator. And now you know. ;)
Posted by: Rik G | November 26, 2009 11:16 AM
PZ, m'boy, you seem a trifle agitated. Maybe a shot of tryptophan would calm you down a bit--have another slice of turkey. No? Not having any? Can I have your helping then? Will somebody pass the biscuits please?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaFvhOy4S_I
Posted by: lordshipmayhem | November 26, 2009 11:16 AM
To my American friends: have a triptophantastic day!!
Posted by: David Wiener
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November 26, 2009 11:18 AM
Its a nice way for the survivors to get together and be happy together. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that things are good. It is especially helpful as an example for children who are inundated with the message that they need more 'things' by various media; it is a teaching moment to let them know that their life is good and it is a chance to bond with their family (which is often the only real thing that we have in this world).
Some of the rest of the family is religious, but they are tolerant of our beliefs as we are of theirs (even if I think they're totally wrong). So it is also a moment to teach children that we can get along.
Posted by: Flavin | November 26, 2009 11:19 AM
@32
Is "Who's your creator?" some kind of kinky Christian sex talk?
And PZ,
What's wrong with taking a day every year to feel good about your life and the people in it? I see Thanksgiving as complimentary to the birthday; it's kind of the "Not-Dead Day."
Posted by: Jack Krebs | November 26, 2009 11:20 AM
And thanks to Cuttlefish for his excellent poem.
And, for what it's worth, I used the word "grateful" not "thankful", although the two words' meanings sort of slide together. The problem is that a theistic "someone is behind it all" perspective is so much a part of our Western culture that very often it is hard to find words that don't imply the existence of God. However I don't think this is a good reason to forgo the use of a word, or worse, reject the concept: rather, atheists can work to reclaim the word, or at least free it from it's theistic connotations.
Posted by: EboTebo | November 26, 2009 11:20 AM
"In the end, one only experiences oneself."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Posted by: Kemist | November 26, 2009 11:21 AM
Same here. It's a holliday, you don't have to show up at work and you still get paid. And you have a good dinner and fun with people you've not seen for a while. Woo-hoo, whatever the reason or meaning of the thing - that's what most people are after anyways, deep down.
Maybe we can be thankful to ourselves because we don't get to waste any of that free time in a church, and that time can used for useful, helpful or fun things instead.
Posted by: Nick | November 26, 2009 11:24 AM
Dan Florien posted this quote from Robert Ingersoll over at Unreasonablefaith.com this morning, and with apologies to PZ, I have to say it resonates more with my inherent optimism.
"When I became convinced that the universe is natural — that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom.
The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles became dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf or a slave. There was for me no master in all the world — not even infinite space.
I was free:
Free to think, to express my thoughts
Free to live my own ideal
Fee to live for myself and those I loved
Free to use all my faculties, all my senses
Free to spread imagination’s wings
Free to investigate, to guess and dream and hope
Free to judge and determine for myself
Free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the “inspired” books that savages have produced, and all the barbarous legends of the past
Free from popes and priests
Free from all the “called” and “set apart”
Free from sanctified mistakes and “holy” lies
Free from the winged monsters of the night
Free from devils, ghosts and gods
For the first time I was free. There were no prohibited places in all the realms of thought — no air, no space, where fancy could not spread her painted wings; no claims for my limbs; no lashes for my back; no fires for my flesh; no following another’s steps; no need to bow, or cringe, or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free. I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously, faced all worlds.
And then my heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love:
To all the heroes, the thinkers, who gave their lives for the liberty of hand and brain
For the freedom of labor and thought
To those who fell on the fierce fields of war
To those who died in dungeons bound with chains
To those who proudly mounted scaffold’s stairs
To those by fire consumed
To all the wise, the good, the brave of every land, whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons and daughters of men and women
And then I vowed to grasp the torch that they have held, and hold it high, that light may conquer darkness still."
Posted by: Richard Eis | November 26, 2009 11:25 AM
Who is your creator!
http://www.homeonthestrange.com/view.php?ID=212
Dr. Who!!!
Posted by: stptrck75 | November 26, 2009 11:26 AM
Sheesh. It's just a day off with a great meal.
Why the anger? Too many contest entries to read?
Posted by: flatlander100 | November 26, 2009 11:28 AM
PZ, you run a great site, and it's on my daily morning blogcheck list. But every now and then, PZ....
Take a pill. Chill. There's lots of stuff worth ranting about. Thanksgiving Day is not one of them. Five of us will gather round the table today, one believer [91 years old], four not. We'll enjoy the family gathering, have a hell of a good meal, drink a little vino and, if tradition holds, have a fine day. And we'll all be thankful in a general sort of way for lots of things. That Notre Dame is having another crappy football season. That all of us still have jobs in the midst of the wreckage of the Bush Recession. That we're all for the most part healthy. That the mountains out the window have [at last] a snow cap building, since our summer water depends on that. And so on.
So, PZ, take a pill. Chill out. The role of Grinch doesn't suit. And if your snit fit about TG was the opening salvo in a campaign to get people to stop thinking you're a nice guy, you picked a piss poor way to start.
Have some pie. A little wine maybe. Or a Turkey rocks. Or three. Relax, enjoy and be glad [a nice synonym for "thankful" if you like.]
Posted by: Stefan | November 26, 2009 11:28 AM
Bah - Humbug... It's two days off from work, it's fun to have a great meal, and just having a feeling of gratitude without having to focus it on something...is...well...hard. But it supposedly fires off some neurons in the right sequence to help with emotional health... Psych Today Article
But being compelled to feel thankful is not helpful, so in the end I must agree, but I will happily promote this bogus treatment anyway.
Posted by: Dust | November 26, 2009 11:29 AM
Anonymous Bloger brings our attention to more RC child abuse by the clergy. I'm thankful I was never an RC child in Ireland--being raised as one in the US was bad enough!
Yesterday I learned that one of my beloved coworkers will be out all next month due to cancer surgery. I'm not thankful about that--it deeply scares me and would much rather have him whole and happy.
Thanksgiving in the US in my experience is more a day of feasting and self indulgence than thankfullness--but that's OK, it can be fun for lots of people and many such as myself get paid days off from our jobs.
I understand the Thanksgiving speil with the Pilgrams and the Native American's is BS and find vauge religious aspect to be uninspiring...but turkey gravy on everything....now that's something to give up some graditude for!
Posted by: Ewan | November 26, 2009 11:29 AM
It was good when you blogged it, but it'd be better from the mouth of Dr. Gregory House or Ebeneezer Scrooge.
Posted by: Cola | November 26, 2009 11:30 AM
My religious family didn't even take a single moment to thank God, the universe, or even anyone they knew. We all dug in the moment the food hit the table. That's why I love them. It's just a big delicious excuse to get together, argue politics and philosophy, and get drunk.
Posted by: Amanda K. Campbell | November 26, 2009 11:30 AM
Here, here! Thank you Dr. Myers for maintaining such an interesting and spirited blog!
Those who've said that they think they can feel grateful/thankful *for* something rather than *to* someone...this doesn't jive with my language circuits. Both gratitude and thankfulness denote an outside agent of some sort that one wishes to thank, acknowledge, propagate, or in some way assigns "credit" for a circumstance in your life.
If you say you're "thankful for the world" (not meaning to nitpick on mo; I think it's a common sentiment) what does that *mean?* Can you explain to me to where this outpouring of thankfulness is aimed?
I think what people may mean to say is that they are "in awe of" the world or are "filled with wonder and/or incredulity" that their lives fall within certain parameters. Gratitude and thankfulness by definition require a thanker and a thankee, the grateful and the appreciated.
There is no one/thing/force/vague woo-woo energy to thank (or condemn) for the state of one's life except one's self and other human beings. Whether or not actively thanking (or confronting) these people is the morally correct and personally productive thing to do is a matter of personal standards.
Posted by: Christophe Thill | November 26, 2009 11:32 AM
I'm a European (and an atheist). I absolutely don't get this "thanksgiving" thing. That's the day you're supposed to say thank you, right? Okay then.
Thank you PZ for a great blog, and please carry on!
Was that good?
Posted by: Peter G.
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November 26, 2009 11:36 AM
I do, however, believe in the essential goodness of turkey, lovingly roasted with liberal quantities of bacon draped over it for basting purposes. If a bogus holiday is the justification for this indulgence I, for one, am willing to suspend reason and logic while I bow my head in hunger over the festive trough.
Posted by: Bard | November 26, 2009 11:39 AM
I am grateful for never having been infected by the mind-virus of religion.
Posted by: cameron | November 26, 2009 11:41 AM
I side entirely with Lindsay on this one. There is no shame in taking one day a year to appreciate what you have and share that appreciation with the people who matter to you.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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November 26, 2009 11:43 AM
'm thankful for friends and family. I'm thankful I still have a job, that I'm in good health, that my asshole of a brother is 1200 miles away (unfortunately my nice brother is even further away), that I'm still intellectually curious, that I can satisfy some of that curiosity, that my wife still loves me, that I can emotionally and physically return that love, and many other things worthy of thanks.
So taking a day to formally and ritually acknowledge the thanks I wish to give to others and myself seems appropriate. I'm even thankful that my wife and I can afford a special meal, can prepare a special meal, and can enjoy a special meal.
Posted by: Carlie | November 26, 2009 11:46 AM
I like having a day when some people get the day off of work and we have a ritual of getting together with loved ones and feasting. I just wish it wasn't tied to being thankful that the benevolent and almighty God caused plagues and inferior weaponry to kill off everyone who already lived here so we could take over. I wish it were a more general way of being thankful for what we have rather than trying to make a celebration of history that we ought to be ashamed of.
Posted by: teammarty | November 26, 2009 11:47 AM
"See the Genesis Account of Creation"
Which one?
Posted by: a_ray_in_dilbert_space
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November 26, 2009 11:48 AM
While I don't believe in God and think the chances of there being a God who cares whether I believe in him are infinitesimal, I do have much to be thankful for. However, rather than give thanks to a nonexistent God or to fortune for my good fortune, I plan to use the day to meditate on how easily things could have gone wrong--starting with the "lucky-sperm lottery" that gave me sufficiently healthy genetics to (mostly) cope with my day to day life and to find work in a field (physics) that I love. I plan to consider how my life might have been different if my parents, key teachers and mentors had not taken me under wing. And on and on.
The purpose of this meditation is not to kiss ass of any powers that be in the Universe, but rather to remind me to be humble in my success and empathetic towards those who have not shared my good fortune. So Happy Thanksgiving, one and all. Let's express our thanks by giving others something to be thankful for.
Posted by: JD | November 26, 2009 11:48 AM
I like to celebrate it as what it really is...
"We kicked the South's butt in the Civil War and need a break" day. Thanks Abe.
Posted by: teammarty | November 26, 2009 11:51 AM
The only Turkey Day traditions we have are listening to mom complain about what a bitch the T-Day meal is, even though I tell her we don't have to and she refuses any help, eating the T-Day turkey (for the next 3 weeks) and watching the Lions lose.
Posted by: Susan | November 26, 2009 11:52 AM
Yeah, well I hate to break it to you, but there's conclusive evidence it does, in fact, exist.
I'm mostly grateful to my union for working to get me a 4-day weekend!
Posted by: Christophe Thill | November 26, 2009 11:55 AM
OK. So this is the day when we have to say thank you. So I'm going to try something very difficult and even a bit painful. Ok, let me try.
Thank you, Julie Haberle!
Thank you, because your boring mystical rants give me an opportunity to answer your question. "Who is your creator", indeed! Who created me? (And can you believe that one day I was asked this question during a job interview? But the guy was crazy)
Well, many people created me. First of all, my parents, without whom my physical self wouldn't even be here. And life hasn't always be fun but mostly I like it. Also, the basis of my personality obviously owes a great deal to them. So thank you my parents!
Thank you, my grandparents, too, because they were very present when I was a little kid, and that was good.
Thank you, my schoolteachers, high school and university professors, especially those who taught me things that stick with me even today, that are still an important part of me.
Thanks you, the great authors whose works I gladly ingested, who helped me build my culture and my worldview. Thank you, Stephen Jay Gould, Pierre Bourdieu, HP Lovecraft, and so many others.
Thank also to a few cats and a few girls I loved in the past, and to my cat and my wife, who I love now. They're all part of me.
And, well, thanks to myself too... Each time I choose a book to read, a topic to think about, I'm making a new little bit of myself. I weren't created once; I'm a work in progress, and so are you.
So, who created me? Many people actually. Some living, some dead. Some who know or knew me closely, some who never heard about me. Thanks to all of them! And thanks to those who write silly things, because refuting them is always an opportunity to think.
Posted by: Patricia, OM | November 26, 2009 11:56 AM
Turkey dinner with the folks for me, and some knitting time. Don't know if I can stand the excitement.
Posted by: MattMc | November 26, 2009 11:57 AM
Thanks PZ. I needed that before being forced to spend this idiotic holiday with my insufferable redneck in-laws. Man I hate the holidays...
Posted by: Rachel | November 26, 2009 11:57 AM
Well, yes, but don't get so worked up, most of us out here in the non-US world don't have Thanksgiving anyway and have no idea what you're going on about!
Posted by: Peter G.
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November 26, 2009 11:58 AM
Now what did Prof. Myer's above screed remind me of?
Right. This:
"Deteriorata" - National Lampoon
You are a fluke of the universe. You have no right to be here.
Deteriorata. Deteriorata.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste,
And remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Avoid quiet and passive persons, unless you are in need of sleep.
Rotate your tires.
Speak glowingly of those greater than yourself,
And heed well their advice, even though they be turkeys.
Know what to kiss, and when.
Consider that two wrongs never make a right, but that three do.
Wherever possible, put people on hold.
Be comforted that in the face of all aridity and disillusionment,
and despite the changing fortunes of time,
There is always a big future in computer maintenance.
Remember The Pueblo.
Strive at all times to bend, fold, spindle, and mutilate.
Know yourself. If you need help, call the FBI.
Exercise caution in your daily affairs,
Especially with those persons closest to you -
That lemon on your left, for instance.
Be assured that a walk through the ocean of most souls
Would scarcely get your feet wet.
Fall not in love therefore. It will stick to your face.
Gracefully surrender the things of youth: birds, clean air, tuna, Taiwan.
And let not the sands of time get in your lunch.
Hire people with hooks.
For a good time, call 606-4311. Ask for Ken.
Take heart in the bedeepening gloom
That your dog is finally getting enough cheese.
And reflect that whatever fortune may be your lot,
It could only be worse in Milwaukee.
You are a fluke of the universe.
You have no right to be here.
And whether you can hear it or not,
The universe is laughing behind your back.
Therefore, make peace with your god,
Whatever you perceive him to be - hairy thunderer, or cosmic muffin.
With all its hopes, dreams, promises, and urban renewal,
The world continues to deteriorate.
Give up!
Posted by: Rewarp | November 26, 2009 12:00 PM
Not American either. So I am thankful for not having to celebrate my thankfulness for a faked friendship between two civilizations.
Posted by: Uerba | November 26, 2009 12:03 PM
Yes, people caring for other people was a totally non-altruistic endeavor which had nothing to do with our current existence. Pfft, individual selection...
Posted by: Gavin | November 26, 2009 12:03 PM
Lighten up buttercup.
Just because there is no god, doesn't mean you have to be a poopy pants about stuff that makes other folks feel nice.
Lately it hasn't happen nearly enough and if this is a day they require to reflect on what they should be thankful for, there is no downside other than the fact that it's fleeting.
So from a Canadian who celebrated his last month, Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
Carry on those warm thoughts and extend them to those you care about, and especially those you don't
Posted by: Anonymous | November 26, 2009 12:07 PM
Sometimes acknowledging the things that make you feel good feels good.
And "Think of the soybeans"?
This isn't your best work.
Posted by: Christophe Thill | November 26, 2009 12:09 PM
By the way, I hear everywhere that the culture of free stuff infects everything. That there's no free lunch. That free ("as in beer") puts capitalism at risk, that ultimately it's anti-economy, anti-freedom, anti-growth. That it's crazy anarchist hippy talk.
So I suggest that, once and for all, Thanksgiving should be replaced by Thanksselling.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | November 26, 2009 12:11 PM
Had you bothered to read what PZ wrote you would have found this:
"Don't get me wrong: I can be appropriately and happily grateful to people who have gone out of their way to do good for me ..."
But then since you do not seem to be able to remember your name, I am not surprised intellectual endeavours are hard for you.
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 26, 2009 12:12 PM
Very well said, PZ… and for that, I thank you. :-)
He has been called "the athiest of them all". ;-)
Are you sure? Because… the Catholic Church has a sunday in October that it calls "harvest thanksgiving", and guess Who is thanked there.
And what exactly makes you think that that's not just wishful thinking…?
There are two creation accounts in Genesis that contradict each other, you literally damned heretic! You'll go straight to hell for "taking away from the words in this book" if I interpret Revelation 22:19 just a little bit too loosely!
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
What sense does that make grammatically, to be thankful without being thankful to someone? Why not just say "happy" instead, like PZ does?
Posted by: Oregon Sage | November 26, 2009 12:13 PM
Dude, Chill out.
A holiday that has become almost completely secularized and is an excuse to eat, drink and be merry is a good thing.You arent even required to eat turkey, or host a crowd if you dont want to.
Personally, I think I will go for a little motorcycle ride before the rains start here in western Oregon and then scrounge up a good movie to watch with my darling wife.
Have some sauerkraut and yogurt or whatever floats your boat, hug your wife twice and the kids too. Take a walk around the neighborhood.
The silver lining of this post is that we found out who the Creator is after all these centuries of confusion, so now everyone should be able to move on.
Posted by: Lynn Wilhelm
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November 26, 2009 12:15 PM
Here's my antidote to the prayer that a member of my family will say before dinner.
"Let us thank all of those who work so hard to provide everything that makes our lives better.
For those who grow, harvest, purchase, and prepare our meals;
those who care for us when we are sick; those who protect us from danger;
those who provide for those that can't;
those who find new ways to make our lives easier;
and those who govern in an all too often thankless postion."
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
I'll say this after they have their piece.
I sent a similar note out as a thanksgiving email to my contacts and clients. I think it covers everyone.
In the past I have thanked the earth or nature or something like that, but as those are inanimate objects or ideas it seems a silly as thanking a sky daddy.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 26, 2009 12:15 PM
Dear Matt,
I'm hoping this isn't your best work, either.
Here I thought I was a curmudgeon. I feel like a piker compared to you professionals.
Posted by: Mike Haubrich, FCD | November 26, 2009 12:16 PM
I hear what you are saying, but I am in just too good of a mood today. Things had been too often reminded me of "nature, red in tooth and claw" and the fact that I was too often reminded that I was supplying more of the "red" part.
I am doing so much better today, and reminded that a great survival strategy is banding together for common survival against our predators. And I am glad to be a part of a population that has a keenly developed sense of altruism.
It could all come crashing down tomorrow, as my predators find me again, but in the meantime, PZ, I am glad that you are here and manning the barricades.
Posted by: Bubs | November 26, 2009 12:17 PM
You are ridiculous. One should absolutely be thankful for the "blessings" or "luck" one has experienced, however one chooses to perceive it. The logical extension of not giving thanks for what you've been fortunate enough to have in your life is that you should also not be thankful to those that you _say_ you are thankful to. If you'd like to say there is no benevolent, altruistic entity to give thanks to, well, your wife and your children and your closest friends at their core are not benevolent and altruistic entities either. You can't take an entirely materialistic view of what's going on around you, leading you to refuse to give thanks, but then go ahead and take on an entirely different attitude when it comes to what you've received from those you care about. Honestly, your post should say that you are not giving thanks to your wife because how she has ended up with you and what she has done for you are just products of the interactions of particles. Otherwise you're full of shit.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | November 26, 2009 12:17 PM
No, you are just not very good at reading. And as a result you make idiotic comments.
I note you still cannot remember your name.
Posted by: cmflyer
|
November 26, 2009 12:19 PM
PZ's got a bug up his butt today. I'm thankful today (and every day) to be a sentient being in the Universe. I was adopted just a year before oral contraceptives hit the market and ended the baby-boom. Thanks, unknown mother, for giving me to a nice family, and thanks to them for raising me rather nicely. Thanks, US culture, for this day off to reflect. Thanks Native Americans for keeping your culture alive against all odds.
Posted by: DaveH_of_Lundun (no thanksgiving) | November 26, 2009 12:20 PM
That's ruffled a few feathers.
Made perfect sense to me. Then, I have no emotional investment in this festival.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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November 26, 2009 12:21 PM
Turkey Day = excuse to massively pig out on food I'd be otherwise waaay to lazy to make.
Melikes food-related rituals (and I'm extremely conservative about them, too) :-)
Posted by: Christophe Thill | November 26, 2009 12:21 PM
Hmmm... If you refuse to thank a mythical, incorporal being, then you have no right to thank the really existing human beings who did something for you? The logic escapes me.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | November 26, 2009 12:23 PM
That is not a failing on your part. There was no logic to capture.
Posted by: Christopher | November 26, 2009 12:23 PM
That was very well said.
Posted by: Martin | November 26, 2009 12:24 PM
Me, I tend to see holidays as tedious interruptions of normality where there is nothing to do and everything is closed. Yawn. At least it is only one day.
Posted by: Jerry | November 26, 2009 12:26 PM
Dear God. We paid for all this stuff ourselves, so thanks for nothing. - Bart Simpson
Posted by: Bubs | November 26, 2009 12:26 PM
The logic is this: there doesn't have to be an actual entity in the sky to be thankful to in order to give thanks on Thanksgiving. In the same way, your friends and family and loved ones don't have to be true altruists (obviously, since they aren't) in order for you to appreciate what they've done for you.
Posted by: cmflyer
|
November 26, 2009 12:28 PM
You know, Chuck Lorre could strip PZ's post and give it to Sheldon Cooper of The Big Bang Theory verbatim. Re-read it thinking in Sheldon's voice. It would be hilarious!
Posted by: Samantha
|
November 26, 2009 12:33 PM
My family has a nice tradition for Thanksgiving; we go around the table and each say one unprompted act of kindness that someone has done for us in the previous year. Then we all contemplate how to be better at giving out unprompted acts of kindness for the next year. It can get a little overbearing if you're feeling guilty over being a terrible child/friend/whatever in the previous year, but for the most part it's a matter of channelling our gratitude for the decent life we live into positive actions, which is to me the spirit of being thankful.
Posted by: heather | November 26, 2009 12:34 PM
I'm usually pretty "bah, humbug" about Thanksgiving (as a Canadian living in the US) but the excitement of my students this week as they were preparing to go home and see parents and siblings and have a great home-cooked dinner made me appreciate this holiday more than usual. Any excuse for good food and good company is fine by me!
Posted by: MTS | November 26, 2009 12:35 PM
Totally agree with #3, to which I would add that it never hurts to remember how much of what we are, and what we have, is due to simple blind luck.
Posted by: Julian | November 26, 2009 12:36 PM
I realize this is partly a joke post, but I'll throw in my two cents. Thanksgiving is just an end-of-harvest feast day. That's all it is. Humans have been having them as long as Agriculture has existed. Nothing essentially religious or metaphysical about it, though that stuff has traditionally been added to it. Quite frankly, I'm as happy has anyone that civilization has once again triumphed in keeping me fed. Easy, cheap food is one of our greatest achievements! Celebrating that by sitting around a table with people I like and eating the best stuff we can think of to cook is ok by me.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | November 26, 2009 12:38 PM
I have had a few Americans over the years ask if we celebrate Thanksgiving (and Independence day) in the UK.
I used to reply that we did, and it was to give thanks that we had finally got rid of the Puritans as they were stopping the rest of us doing what Brit's do best, namely drinking.
Posted by: Bo Gardiner
|
November 26, 2009 12:43 PM
But... to not "believe in Thanksgiving Day" is like not believing in global warming. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you mustn't embrace its reality and deal with it.
I "embrace the reality" of global warming by studying it, fighting it, plus educating about mitigating impacts. I can't walk away from it... it's part of my world.
I "embrace the reality" of Thanksgiving by understanding why it's important to most of my loved ones, fighting the religious angle, and educating about the PEOPLE that should be thanked, and NATURE which must be appreciated. I can't walk away from it... it's part of my world.
I believe in community, and I choose to shamelessly exploit religionists by using this day to satisfy my biological craving for community. So, I'm taking myself and my utterly delicious roasted vegetables off to the local UU (ugh!) Thanksgiving event. As my family is too distant and none of my secular communities are doing anything today.
Until humanists unite and force a hostile takeover of the UU infrastructure, it's the best I can do.
So sue me!
Yummmm...
Posted by: Sherry Young | November 26, 2009 12:45 PM
Thanks PZ, Great essay and just what I needed.
I love Chaos. It's such a better explanation as to why bad things happen to good people than "God did it".
Would I be a bad atheist if I say on Thanksgiving Day that I am thankful for PZ and all the other reasonable people in the world?
Posted by: Kay-the-fish | November 26, 2009 12:51 PM
Wow, and I thought I was cynical about holidays. Really, it's just a day off of work and the pleasure of eating good food (or the stress of preparing good food for everyone coming over). We're in New Zealand this year, so we didn't even bother.
Posted by: Jeremy | November 26, 2009 12:52 PM
This cartoon has been tagged as inappropriate on Facebook.
Download, save as, then share on Facebook all ye Pharyngulans!
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | November 26, 2009 12:59 PM
I am thankful that my tastbuds evolved to enjoy ham and garlic mashed potatoes!
Posted by: Red John | November 26, 2009 1:00 PM
My thoughts exactly.
Posted by: PlaydoPlato | November 26, 2009 1:01 PM
In the PlaydoPlato household, we thank each other and reflect on all of the people, agencies, institutions, and organizations who have contributed to our continued, and generally happy, existence.
And yes, I'm thankful to chance that I live in the universe that I do. Sure, I know that chance isn't sentient and if it was, it wouldn't give a shit about me, but WTF, I'm thankful anyway. Does that make me a bad athiest?
Maybe, but I never said I was perfect.
Posted by: Rey Fox | November 26, 2009 1:03 PM
That was a nice, thought-provoking post. But I also liked Lindsay Beyerstein's rebuttal. 'Cause in the end, I really can't get too worked up about a day off, a turkey dinner, and football.
Hmm. Curmudgeonly Atheist and Deep Rifts on the same page. This is not good.
Posted by: allison | November 26, 2009 1:09 PM
Gee, thanks, Debbie Downer...
Posted by: PlaydoPlato | November 26, 2009 1:11 PM
Oh, and one more thing. Julie Haberle at #32...
Get Stuffed!
Posted by: frzz | November 26, 2009 1:12 PM
I spend thanksgiving thinking about how while americans are cramming their fat faces with animal bits, there are millions of people who are literally starving to death, and how billions of animals are slaughtered annually for food die needlessly and painfully.
I also think about how most of my fellow atheists see that following the masses blindly in regards to religion is absurd, but doing the same thing in regards to what they eat is too big of a logical leap to make.
So I don't eat on thanksgiving.
Posted by: Todd | November 26, 2009 1:19 PM
I'm thankful for nihilism.
Posted by: Copernicus | November 26, 2009 1:21 PM
In the spirit of Cuttle, I must confess
That from whence I came, there is no redress:
My mom shared her part, as did my dad,
Just as your parents did when he took her to bed.
From 46 shared, came my 23,
A haploid result from a diploid party;
Their tendencies came from their parents in turn
Through meiosis we know, as in Punnett’s math game.
But the original source, one you know is for real,
Moved from nothing to here- a star’s ending, the deal;
Every cell, every mood, every freckle and frown,
Each atom of substance, baryogenesis the noun;
From protium, helium, three minutes in
The process moved forward, there’s really no spin:
The air that we breath and each drop of rain,
It’s all elemental including your brain.
We could delve into physics and chemistry too,
Show transitional fossils, quote Stephen Jay Gould;
But Alpher aside, Hans Bethe, Gamow,
The proof’s in the pudding, we already know
The Moravian monk took a look at the pea
And recent research underlines that Ardi,
Quadropedal when moving about in the woods,
Was bipedal like us and when out in the ‘hood.
So your legends and myths, stole from peoples before,
Are simply that: plagiarized lore.
But I have no doubt that from nothing came you:
Your existence, your substance, your genome, mine too!
Posted by: PlaydoPlato | November 26, 2009 1:24 PM
Not trying to pick a fight, but religious people drive cars, sleep in beds, and live in houses too. Do you eschew these things on Thanksgiving as well?
As for the "billions of animals... slaughtered annually for food die needlessly and painfully."
If this comment is based on a personal belief in vegetarianism, as it seems, it is my understanding that vegetarianism has its roots buried deep in religious nuttery.
Posted by: DinoBoy | November 26, 2009 1:26 PM
Thank YOU Professor Myers. This was a marvelous post. I have a day off today. My wife and kids are home too. Almost everything is closed. We're not doing anything "Traditional." No travelling, nobody coming over, and no turkey. My wife made a really yummy pasta for lunch and I thanked her. We're spending the whole long weekend doing nothing but relaxing and watching movies together. And I couldn't be happier.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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November 26, 2009 1:31 PM
Instead you wallow in self-righteousness.
Posted by: mayhempix | November 26, 2009 1:35 PM
All I care about is the food.
Posted by: Akiko | November 26, 2009 1:36 PM
Wonderful post. My oldest child has been nagging me all week about this. "Why do people celebrate Thanksgiving?" When I stumble around and try to explain it to her it sound ridiculous. She said it is stupid and a dumb idea for a holiday. She is right!
Posted by: Joe Geronimo | November 26, 2009 1:41 PM
Jack Krebs nailed it in comment 3: "you can be thankful for things without being thankful to something." I am thankful for the way my life is developing through my hardwork and some support from others, but I am aware that there is no supernatural agent out there guiding my path.
I agree with most of your analysis PZ but I don't think it is wrong to have a day where you get together with friends and family, eat some food, and be thankful for the thing you and your loved ones have accomplished or obtained through there hard work.
Posted by: Joe Geronimo | November 26, 2009 1:44 PM
I guess being happy is probably more appropriate than being thankful - regarding my comment
Posted by: Bo Gardiner
|
November 26, 2009 1:45 PM
@David Wiener
"There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that things are good. It is especially helpful as an example for children who are inundated with the message that they need more 'things' by various media; it is a teaching moment to let them know that their life is good and it is a chance to bond with their family (which is often the only real thing that we have in this world)... it is also a moment to teach children that we can get along."
@Flavin
"What's wrong with taking a day every year to feel good about your life and the people in it?"
Love these, thank you. I'm totally into co-opting religious holidays, instead of fighting them, and turning them into a force for good instead of evil. Bwa-ha-ha-ha....
Posted by: Wow. | November 26, 2009 1:55 PM
What a total @ss. You're like the grouchy, bitter uncle that nobody likes. I'm glad you're not in my family.
I see you found a way to shed the mild-mannered "teddy bear" image. Good luck with the new one.
Posted by: Todd | November 26, 2009 1:56 PM
Thanksgiving
A national holiday established by Congress in 1934 as a day of thanksgiving, in which everyone in America considers how their miserable lives stack up in comparison to the Detriot Lions.
Posted by: frzz | November 26, 2009 1:57 PM
"Not trying to pick a fight, but religious people drive cars, sleep in beds, and live in houses too. Do you eschew these things on Thanksgiving as well?"
I don't follow your logic. Both religious people and meat eaters too-easily fall back on the "it is tradition" argument.
"As for the "billions of animals... slaughtered annually for food die needlessly and painfully."
If this comment is based on a personal belief in vegetarianism, as it seems, it is my understanding that vegetarianism has its roots buried deep in religious nuttery."
It is not my fault that the animal rights movement, along with most other contemporary civil rights movements, have some ties to religious groups. I think that those ties have more to do with fact that that most people are religious, so odds are that there is some "veggie/jesus" overlap.
"Instead you wallow in self-righteousness."
Absolutely not true. I live my life as simply as I can, and I try my best to be as logically consistent as possible. I think that all sentient creatures should have the right to live their lives unmolested by the whims of others, and to not be treated as means to an end. My feeling on religion, politics, and, yes, food follow from this basic idea.
Religious people often accuse us of being self-righteous because we seem smug and intolerant of their beliefs. We dismiss these accusations because we know that their beliefs do not hold up to scrutiny.
Feel free to poke holes in my logic, and I'll do my best to respond to you from my ivory tower.
Posted by: Bo Gardiner
|
November 26, 2009 1:59 PM
Oops, forgot to add,
When I "give thanks" on TDay, it's not a pseudoreligious "radiating blessings at the cosmos," as PZ puts it. There are specific targets. But there are too many. Eyes would glaze if I went on about the farmers, agronomists, scientists, engineers, tradespeople, environmental regulators, people who voted for the better politicians who let the regulators do their jobs...
When I express appreciation on TDay, it's my reminder to stay connected to the natural world, and the special beauty it takes on at this time of year. I consider this connection a requirement for mental health, but that's just me.
A local paper once asked for "what I'm thankful for" submissions to print on their "Faith and Values" page on TDay. I sent in a secular one. For some reason mine was the only one printed, but they moved it off the "Faith" page with a nice little intro. But it pissed me off... because of course it didn't count as "Values."
Posted by: Michelle R | November 26, 2009 2:03 PM
...I thought it was just a football day off?
Posted by: Maggie Moo | November 26, 2009 2:03 PM
Classic, Copernicus!
LOL! I notice that neither David Mathews nor Lion IRC were able to repudiate your analysis of ancient literature, or have since he was caught literally plagiarising from Ray Comfort!
Posted by: Insightful Ape | November 26, 2009 2:06 PM
Great post PZ. Just one point of disagreement.
Soy beans are not the same as turkeys. They don't have brains so they don't hurt.
Also from a purely utilitarian point of, they make more sense to be used for food. Production of grains, fruits and vegetables is simply more efficient than meat, eggs and milk.
Other than that, thank YOU PZ for maintaining this wonderful virtual community.
Yours inside Christ,
The Imsightful Ape
Posted by: Dr. I. Needtob Athe | November 26, 2009 2:08 PM
It seems to me that the custom of giving thanks for good fortune is due to a void in our language.
When something good happens to us due to the action of another person we feel and express gratitude, and that makes perfect sense. We give thanks to the person responsible.
But when we encounter good fortune due to a roll of the dice, there's nobody to thank, yet our language inhibits us from seeing the distinction and so we still feel gratitude and an obligation to give thanks. If we're then asked who we're thanking, we're forced to either claim that we're thanking some deity who guides events otherwise attributed to chance, or else we must admit that what we're saying doesn't make sense.
As a non-believer, what should you properly say when something you regard as good happens through a turn of pure luck or due to an action that you casually chose to take without anticipating the good consequences that would follow? Since in those cases it doesn't make sense to be "thankful" if you have no one to thank, what should your attitude be and what comment would be appropriate?
Suggestions?
Posted by: MaxH
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November 26, 2009 2:10 PM
And a very Happy Thanksgiving to you, too, Dr. Myers!
Posted by: Susannah | November 26, 2009 2:10 PM
Well said, PZ! We Canadians celebrate our Thanksgiving a bit earlier, before the serious grumbling about the weather starts, but as far as I can see, with a bit of shamefacedness because we're celebrating an American holiday, and they go 'way overboard down there.
Happy works. Grateful? To whom? It stopped raining (finally) today, (Yay!); who should I thank?
As to thanking the people who brighten our days; that should be done at the moment, daily; why put it off to that one day a year?
Posted by: Irene Delse | November 26, 2009 2:20 PM
"Wary Vigilance Day"? See, that's the problem with atheism: the endless negativity and nihilism! Why can't they stuff themselves full of turkey and be toughtlessly happy, huh? Huh? /Heavy snark mode...
Posted by: PlaydoPlato | November 26, 2009 2:20 PM
Bo, religious traditions and language are so tightly interwoven into everyday existence, that I don't know if it's possible to shed all religious trappings from your life.
Do you stop using money because it says "In doG we trust?"
Do you go to work on Sunday's because Sunday is recognized as a day off for religious purposes?
When you sneeze and someone says "bless you", do you tell'em to fuck off, or do you accept their comment -- based on delusional beliefs for sure -- in the spirit in which it was intended?
Did you dump all of your friends, relatives, and co-workers, for whom religion is part of their lives?
Just wondering how you've managed to exorcise religion completely out of your life.
My take: It is possible to celebrate a 'religious' holiday without the religious crap associated with it. Due to my farm-related work and my love for gardening, Thanksgiving, for me, really is a harvest festival. When it comes to the main event and people around the table bow their heads, I don't. Thus, I can scarf my turkey without compromising my personal ethics.
As for Christmas, I went years without celebrating it, but then took it up again. I see it as yet another harvest holiday kidnapped by religious loons. For me, it's somewhat like Thanksgiving in that it is an opportunity to spend time with family -- minus the religious BS.
BTW, didn't PZ post something last year about how he still celebrates xmas? PZ, what's the deal? Xmas is way more religious than Turkey-day. Are you a full-on Aholidayist now?
Posted by: TheBlackCat | November 26, 2009 2:21 PM
"Upon a certain Thursday
Every Turkey cowers.
They observe Thanksgiving Day
On the Friday after ours!"
-Scott Corbett, Jokes to Read in the Dark
Posted by: MadScientist | November 26, 2009 2:25 PM
Ah, Thanksgiving - when the strange white folks thanked their dog that the injuns sold them corn when they were starving - and soon after robbed and killed the injuns in great numbers.
Posted by: Rodger | November 26, 2009 2:26 PM
I am a long time reader, poll crasher, and otherwise supportive member of the Atheist Horde, but I have to say that one of the least pleasant things about this blog is when you come off all nasty like this.
Thanksgiving these days is a about good food and family gathering. I won't be "thoughtlessly" shoving turkey into my "maw," I'll be savoring every delicious bite as I laugh and talk with my parents, brothers and fiancé. We'll talk about how we're grateful for each other and science and video games and other stuff we like. It will all be very positive as we give ourselves a few hours of eating and talking about the positive aspects of our lives. We won't even reference the supernatural while doing it. What the Hell could possibly be wrong with this?
Posted by: madbull | November 26, 2009 2:26 PM
I love the lord of the rings while I know its just fiction. When Gandalf fell @ Moria, fighting the Balrog, I could actually feel pain for a fictional character. So why cant I just feel thankful that I'm alive and happy though there's no one to thank?
That's what makes us human. I am Indian, I have never celebrated Thanksgiving, but I think its an awesome idea. We whine a lot even though the universe is indifferent. We whine about religious people though we know that religion is a mind virus they are stuck with and it happened as an indifferent side effect of an evolutionary process. If we can whine about the indifferent universe, why cant we be thankful too ?
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 26, 2009 2:27 PM
HAPPY!
Posted by: abz | November 26, 2009 2:28 PM
wow! who pissed on your bonfire today?
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | November 26, 2009 2:30 PM
Not so much thankful as simply glad is how I feel about this holiday. That circumstances in my life have been what they have and that the laws of physics and chemistry and biology have been what they are. By their actions I have such delightful memories of Thanksgivings past with several generations gathered to feast and gossip and bask in mutual company.
That is, so many events and so many individuals entwined in my memory are too many to thank. And which, or who, do I thank for which small moment of joy or insight? It's way too complicated. Instead it is fun and, it seems, sufficient to just feel glad that all things are as they are and that I am here to be a part of it all, to have the actuall experience of witnessing a small slice of reality.
I'm glad I'm here. I'm glad that I'm not alone. I'm glad that not everybody thinks like I do. I'm glad that there is a song titled, "I'm So Glad" and that the first time I heard it back in 1970 I really got the message. I'm glad that I can write these words on this blog in the company of such astounding personalities.
But I am thankful for one thing. Or two, really. My feet and my hands. Four things. Oh, and my eyes and ears. That's eight things. Perhaps I should be thankful for, to?, my central nervous system that ties them all together. Nah, I'm just glad I've got them and so do all of you and that when they are exposed to one another amazing results are guaranteed.
What a Universe!
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | November 26, 2009 2:35 PM
I'm thankful for two little beasties today
1. the yeast beasties that produced the alcohol in this wonderful barley wine I am enjoying on the couch watching football with my sick wife and two dogs
2. the rhinovirus beasties that caused my wife to have this cold that kept us from having to drive 6 hour round trip today to go to her family's thanksgiving celebration in a church outside Charlotte.
Now just so that you don't think I'm an uncaring bastard, she's happy about it too.
AND I made her some homemade chicken noodle soup with fresh home made egg noodles and home made chicken stock.
The dogs don't get any.
Posted by: PZ Myers
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November 26, 2009 2:37 PM
You aren't getting it. I do celebrate Thanksgiving -- I just don't do it by expressing gratitude to an unfeeling universe. I also celebrate Christmas, but not by praising Jebus. Nothing in what I wrote up there says you can't be happy today.
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 26, 2009 2:37 PM
(That's the same feeling, BTW, that you have when you contemplate the fact that you were born in a First-World country. No, you're not proud.)
Posted by: octopod
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November 26, 2009 2:38 PM
Perhaps for "grateful" or "thankful" in the universal sense, one should read some combination of "pleased" and "fully conscious that most of this good luck wasn't my doing at all"? 'Cause that's worth remembering.
Posted by: Copernicus | November 26, 2009 2:41 PM
TheBlackCat #134
Slaughtered daily on the blogs
Their fate as with Sea Deer
and Rabbitigers and Frogdogs
There is another here:
Not so lucky are the beasts
That oft’ cry “what the fuck?”
When Cameron’s stupid fit of pique
Condemned the Crocoduck!
Posted by: Steve Caldwell | November 26, 2009 2:44 PM
From an evolutionary biology standpoint, the domestication of turkeys and other animals has been very good for them.
Turkey DNA (and turkeys as organisms) have improved its ability to make copies of itself by outsourcing many of the animals' needs (food, shelter, protection from predators, etc) to the human symbionts who helps them with these needs and also benefits from them each Thanksgiving Day through the consumption of the birds in their roasted, cajun-fried, and other forms.
Daniel Dennett talks about the "cleverness" of evolution and domestication of animals during a recent TED talk:
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_s_response_to_rick_warren.html
Posted by: Ciara | November 26, 2009 2:45 PM
Cuttlefish,your poem makes me smile. :D
Posted by: Rohit | November 26, 2009 2:47 PM
Great post, frzz.
I shall spend my Thanksgiving not being complicit in the torture and slaughter of a sentient animal. Hopefully people on this blog shall start thinking logically about this issue instead of passing out ignorant statements that are strikingly similar to the ones I hear from religious nuts.
Posted by: frzz | November 26, 2009 2:48 PM
It is also interesting how we can talk about breaking cycles and knocking the shine off of taboos, as long as we don't go after the taboos that we personally hold dear. Oh, and as soon as we do, the offended parties are quick to go right to the same tired arguments that religious people use.
A little consistency, that's all i ask.
(ps, p.z., I hope you don't think I am trying to derail the topic of the post. I think that this angle has to come up whenever we discuss the "why" of holidays/celebrations...)
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | November 26, 2009 2:49 PM
here we go
Posted by: vltava | November 26, 2009 2:55 PM
@18: I say a more historically accurate way to commemorate the first Thanksgiving would be to deliver a symbolic basket of blankets to a local Native American.
Posted by: SkepTech | November 26, 2009 2:56 PM
You made me laugh. Thanks for that.
Posted by: Standard Curve
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November 26, 2009 2:57 PM
Happy Foodeating day!
Posted by: frzz | November 26, 2009 3:01 PM
"From an evolutionary biology standpoint, the domestication of turkeys and other animals has been very good for them."
That may be, but that does not take into account the simple fact that 99% of turkeys alive today live short, brutal, painful lives, pumped full of growth hormones, anti-biotics, (to keep them alive in the horrid conditions we keep them in)and the absolutely cheapest food possible. Even if they all were "free-range", living happy lives on farms with red barns, they would still end their lives with a slit throat, a live electrocution or being gassed. Having your throat cut hurts. Being de-beaked hurts. Not knowing or caring that this is how that carcass got on our plates does not dismiss us from our culpability.
Excuse me if this means that I am on a high horse.
Posted by: Heather | November 26, 2009 3:02 PM
I'm thankful that my husband is not in the hospital today. He went in on Monday with seizures of some sort (after having spent all day Sunday in the ER) with the seizures as well and was released on Tuesday with some dandy new medication that should keep things under control.
I'm thankful that I will be able to enjoy my long weekend with him AND my children rather than having to juggle spending time with them and visiting him in the hospital, since the kids aren't allowed to visit.
I'm REALLY thankful that a good neurologist was able to get him taken care of quickly and competently. So I suppose that this year, that is who I should be thanking as we eat our roast beast, since that is the person who has had the biggest impact on our holiday this year.
Posted by: Kronk Pepikrankenitz | November 26, 2009 3:05 PM
Copernicus, you're not Cuttlefish, are you?
Posted by: Veovis | November 26, 2009 3:14 PM
"If you're eating tofurkey, you aren't off the hook, either. Think of the soybeans!"
Yes I am. The soybeans didn't have a nervous system and brain which allowed them to suffer. And if you think the turkeys lived a quiet, boring, but contented life before their slaughter, you should look into it a bit further. (I'm sure a select few did, but the vast majority did NOT live "mostly content[ed]" lives). Other than that, though, I agree full heartedly with this post. And like so many other things brought up here, I am glad someone else is finally expressing it too.
Posted by: Copernicus | November 26, 2009 3:14 PM
No Kronk, we are not the same... I must admit that when I boldly venture into what is laughingly called poetry (#113, not my snap quip in response to TheBlackCat at #134|145), I am in fact inspired by Cuttlefish and if you'll note some of our previous poetic dialogue, my initial verse always gives him a nod by way of acknowledging his rightful "seniority" here in that genre...
However if you are implying you have a problem with my using verse to express my comment, perhaps you should note that your own comment copied 152 of the 156 presented here, so... what, exactly?
But don't tell me, for Thanksgiving dinner you're going to have "three oinkers wearing pants, plate of hot air, basket of Grandma's breakfast and change the bull to a gill"?
Posted by: BMS | November 26, 2009 3:18 PM
A day off? Not for everyone.
A 4-day weekend??? Not for a lot of people.
Not for those who work in retail, hotels, emergency services (fire, police, EMTs, etc.), hospitals, utility services, live entertainment (holidays in Vegas, anyone?), TV broadcasting...
Kinda blinkered somma y'all are. ;)
My wife will be working her regular gig this evening, plus the artistic staff scheduled a rehearsal so she has to go in early. It'll likely be a 10 hour work "day," plus an extended (by 30 minutes at least) commute home after midnight fighting tourist traffic snarls on the Strip and the freeways.
Plus her show's not off until Monday - that's 180 people for her gig alone who don't get either a holiday or a holiday weekend.
------------
For me, I'm now uninclined toward Thanksgiving as a holiday. This past year I learned that direct ancestors who were in the state of Georgia's legislature were likely highly involved in crafting the laws that stole the Georgia Cherokee's land thus forcing the people onto the Trail of Tears.
My paternal ancestors: Slave owners - check. Treaty destroyers - check. Land thieves - check.
Posted by: ButchKitties | November 26, 2009 3:19 PM
Perhaps when we are not dealing with specific people or agencies, we should exchange "thankfulness" for "appreciation". English demands that gratitude have a recipient, whereas appreciation doesn't necessarily have the same giver/receiver connotations.
I think the name of the holiday lends itself to using terms like "gratitude" and "thankfulness" when they are not really the appropriate. When I say I'm grateful for things like nature or the universe, I'm not engaging in woo so much as I'm being sloppy in my choice of words.
Posted by: BobbyEarle | November 26, 2009 3:20 PM
Something wonderful happened to me in late September: I reunited with my first girlfriend via facebook. We had not seen or heard from each other in 33 years, and we have had 2 fantastic visits, and another coming up on December 12.
Total, unfathomable luck is the reason and I have no idea who or what to thank; Maybe Al Gore for inventing the intertubes. But we are happy, and things are going great, and I hope that luck shines on you too, PZ...and to all of us here!
Turkey and Bromo, here I come!
Posted by: Kronk Pepikrankenitz | November 26, 2009 3:21 PM
Not at all Copernicus, I was just curious- your writing (both of you) is very clever and certainly refreshing/intellectual/artistic on a blog that often devolves into ego
I got the parts about Punnett, Mendel, and Ardi but not the "thre minutes" (??)
Posted by: Timothy Vogel | November 26, 2009 3:22 PM
"...in this world are very few things made from logic alone. It is illogical for a man to be too logical. Some thing we must just let stand. The mystery is more important than any possible explanation...The searcher after truth must search with humanity. Ruthless logic is the sign of a limited mind. The truth can only add to the sum of what you know, while a harmless mystery left unexplored often adds to the meaning of life. When a truth is not so important, it is better left as a mystery."
(Bruce Courtenay: The Power of One)
PZ, as a biologist and mathematician and cognitive scientist I empathizise with just how much you want to positively inspire the world to "use their heads". Yet trust bonds are required for that.
Deny it as "baseless', but if you trash every form of human convention your one-dimensional message will ultimately en up on the trash-heap of human irrelevance by even those who, like me, enjoy your message but read in some of your threads true contempt for for almost all of humanity.
Even atheists have emotional ties to something, almost always as baseless as faith in an afterlife. What is your baseless loyalty? You have one and are beginning to endanger your intellectual mission for the heartless side of you no one can forget once they recognize that trait in you.
i enjoy your intellectualism, but think your human self is getting lost due to some deep-seated anger even you don't seem to understand.
Your own human footprint on this earth is far larger than to take on every form of human ritual as an adversary to your mission of "intelligence over mysticism"!
TV
Posted by: RogerJH
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November 26, 2009 3:25 PM
Hey PZ. Great post. Love the comments thread too. As always you get to people's hearts and they respond. For myself, as a Brit transplanted here in the US, after 20 years I still do not quite "get" Thanksgiving. I always thought that it is simply a relic of ancient harvest festivals which helped communities survive through winter months. With of course a Christian patina to make it acceptable to those who deign from entertaining other world views.
I get that it's good to be grateful to those about you and even to feel lucky for an experienced-filled healthy life. But I can't quite grasp why or how people feel obligated to express gratitude to some unknowable deity. Because, despite what some have said in this thread, Thanksgiving has generally been portrayed as a Christian celebration. One gives thanks to God -- that's the tradition. So to position oneself as being thankful for any other reason (than the ones for which we can be so on a daily basis) is simply co-opting the Christian ritual. Atheists (and probably some Christians) who make such a show are pusillanimous -- trying avoid judgment from their peers.
So I reject the notion that there is a special day on which we must be seen to be grateful. Let us instead enjoy the beauty and wonder of life and thank those who enrich our lives every day, not just today.
Posted by: Sastra
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November 26, 2009 3:27 PM
Haven't read the comments yet, and sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I think that a humanistic approach to Thanksgiving helps us highlight the slight difference between gratitude and appreciation. Both are necessary in order to "feel thankful," in the fullest sense of the phrase.
'Gratitude' has to do with fair reciprocation in a relationship; someone does you a favor, you owe them something back. This can be as small as a recognition of the obligation you've been put under. Gift --> Thank you ---> You're Welcome. You are thankful to the people who have done nice things for you. You express your gratitude to them to pay them back.
An atheist can be thankful this way -- expressing gratitude to other people. But, as PZ points out, one doesn't relate to the universe this way. We can't express our gratitude to the universe.
But appreciation is different. In order to appreciate something, you don't have to be in a relationship, where fair exchanges are made. We simply have to take the time to recognize and enjoy an experience, and be pleased. We aren't "grateful" for a beautiful sunset. We appreciate it. And by taking special time to appreciate the positive things in our life, we are more likely to remember that these experiences are all we are ever going to have. Experiencing love, joy, beauty, friendship, food -- these values are valuable for their own sake. Life isn't something we live through in order to do something else that matters afterward. It has to matter now. We make it matter by how we notice it.
Humanists may be better at understanding the concept of appreciation, simply because we don't have to translate it into the terms of a gift-exchange obligation to someone. I suspect that Buddhists may be doing the same thing, acting as humanists as they feel present in the moment, accepting it for what it is, on its own terms.
So, I don't agree with PZ here. I think there is a sense of "thanksgiving" which is particularly humanist, and in which we can participate more fully and deeply than theists, who are forced to see all good things as a "gift" for which they owe back an exchange. We can appreciate more nuances in how we are thankful, and in the way we are thankful.
And now I'm going out to a buffet, because the relatives are all coming over here on Sunday, and so after today it's work, work, work.
Posted by: Copernicus | November 26, 2009 3:32 PM
No problem Kronk, thank you...
The next step after baryogenesis was Big Bang nucleosynthesis, during which light atomic nuclei began to form, and is hypothesized to have occurred about three minutes after the Big Bang
Posted by: Owlmirror | November 26, 2009 3:34 PM
I'm sorry that you are in despair.
I don't suppose you've tried anti-depressants?
What makes you think that God has given it to everyone? Your hatred of the world sounds Calvinist, but Calvinism emphasizes out that not everyone is given the gift.
Who are you to claim that God does not desire that some people -- indeed, most people -- be damned forever on his whim?
Right, so you're still miserable, even though you've received this "gift".
Why should God's unfair distribution of this supposed "gift" not be resented?
Maybe some psychotherapy will help with that martyr complex no doubt exacerbated by the depression?
This is obviously some meaning of "love" with which I am unfamiliar.
Who are you to try and change God's mind?
But God does nothing. And unless God actually does something, nothing you do matters. Sorry.
How is that supposed to help?
Posted by: Somnolent Aphid
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November 26, 2009 3:36 PM
Oh bite me P-zed. You don't get to tell me whether to be thankful or not. I've got plenty. I'm warm. I'm clothed. I have enough to eat. I have decent work. A nice place to live. I have a couple of close friends, and enough mental riches to fill a palace. I might not deserve it all, but I'm a lucky little shit, and it's not for you to take this holiday away. I'll thank who I want to thank in my own way. jerkbait. Feeling grateful to all the billions that built this culture over uncountable years is a bit of a joy actually. Now I'll just go enjoy my madarin marshmallow coconut salad in peace.
Posted by: dz alexander | November 26, 2009 3:39 PM
An atheist's thanksgiving --
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6135910/Aronson-Thanksgiving
More to my liking, but then the verdict on my responses to Jennifer Hecht's "Doubt" quiz was
'You are still an atheist, but you may have what I will call a pious relationship to the universe."
http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/doubt/quiz.shtml
"The world is so full of a number of things, I'm sure we shuld all be as happy as kings."
Posted by: Monkeyman8 | November 26, 2009 3:42 PM
Thank you PZ for a great blog, and as for thanks giving for me it's a family dinner (like every other day) where we thank each other.
Posted by: Ha | November 26, 2009 3:47 PM
I was sent this today. I understand the scientific view of things and appreciate the attitude, even if it's said without the significance, poetry and beauty offered by others such Sagan, Gould, Shermer, Dawkins and others (it's basically kind of sloopy, but I get the message - well done).
However, PZ Myer's writes:
......
~ "Some people seem to be misreading this, and think I'm telling everyone to have a bad day. Wrong: have a grand old day off, I know I am. Just forget this silly business of feeling blindly thankful. Gratitude is to be shared between sentient beings.
If you're feeling this strange sensation of being grateful for existence or for good fortune, though, I wonder…would you be resentful of nonexistence, or place blame for random bad luck?"
......
I'm somewhat familiar with PZ Myer's style, but the above is a joke. That it's some kind of clarification just makes it worse. I'm not being blindly grateful, actually quite the opposite. I couldn't feel this way about being nonexistent (need that be said), random bad luck sucks, luck can be more than random by the way (check out Richard Wiseman's Luck Factor), but of course I will be told I'm not reading this right. "LOL"
Posted by: Copernicus | November 26, 2009 3:47 PM
hmmm... to Somnolent Aphid:
The drowsy homopeteran roused from his slumber
Is quick to succumb to the dregs,
And his spelling of Citrus reticulta
Reduces his tirade to shreds.
Posted by: Christopher Petroni | November 26, 2009 3:48 PM
I'll echo a point that's been made several times already. I just wrote a post on it elsewhere, and it's fresh in my mind.
I see nothing sycophantic about feeling some ill-defined gratitude for existence itself. I feel lucky to be alive every day, fully in cognizance of the fact that the same blind natural forces that support my existence will snuff it out in the near future. Gratitude feels good. Further, it helps keep me from taking my existence for granted. Perhaps if more people felt gratitude at the existence of this blue-green oasis in the yawning, boundless chasm of unlife we call a universe, there would be more interested in protecting what we have.
Besides, which, there is a difference between gratitude and groveling. Gratitude feels good. Groveling does not. Once can feel gratitude for one's existence without groveling before some imagined supernatural benefactor.
I think you're off the mark here, PZ. Just because the universe is cold and unfeeling, just because there is no being who can rightly receive the gratitude, does not make gratitude itself misplaced. It's just one of those nice feelings that comes from being human.
Posted by: DeanFromBC | November 26, 2009 3:53 PM
Maybe we should lobby to change the name to Appreciation Day.
As a Canadian, I don't celebrate your Thanksgiving (always miss the football games - except for the Lions of cours) and we don't have the same traditions in Canada (expressing thanks around the dinner table, for example).
But I try to use the day to reflect internally, and to appreciate how damn lucky I was to be born to good parents in a country with exceptional resources.
Posted by: Copernicus | November 26, 2009 4:00 PM
LOL at me #172!
So quick to respond leaves me smiling upon
Posting verses with spelling in error;
Skitt’s Law comes full circle when spelling homopteran
My mistake as grey as the weather
(apologies, Somnolent Aphid)
Posted by: sasqwatch | November 26, 2009 4:01 PM
Did your mom remarry, PZ ? (or perhaps she prefers to use her full "maiden" name when she e-mails her son).
Either way, it seems a little strange, inefficient, and inappropriate for family members to have to use these channels to get through to you. You really should give her a call, even if she's religious.
Posted by: Anri
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November 26, 2009 4:10 PM
Well, for myself, although the universe in general, and on average, is indeed utterly unfeeling towards me, little bits of it care very deeply for me (most of those bits are people - I suspect the cats just have feet that need warming...), and I'll be taking some time to spend with and thanking those bits.
And, of course, the bits that populate interesting virtual places like Pharyngula!
Thanks for being here, being interesting, and being, in general, and on average, more sensible than most of the rest of the InterTubez.
Happy
Monkey!Turkey!Posted by: neutron | November 26, 2009 4:15 PM
I'm Liverpool born - living in deepest Bavaria, so I don't get too excited about Thanksgiving one way ot the other. However, over the last 2 years I have been attempting to implmement my own version of Thanksgiving plus Bavarian St Nikolaus. I call it "Augustiner Day"; it is named after the best beer in the world "Augustiner", held on the first Saturday after the 6th December and is celebrated by drinking gallons of Augustiner and eating as many packets of potato crisps as possible. My kids have all taken part earnestly so far and they are spreading it to their friends and acquaintances. We have high hopes of getting this firmly established as the years go by unless alcoholism overtakes us first. Nowt wrong with a good piss up!
Posted by: The Pint
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November 26, 2009 4:16 PM
Thought-provoking post as usual, PZ. I can see where you're coming from, but don't necessarily agree. Thanksgiving hasn't been a religious, spiritual, nationalistic celebration or even enforced family holiday for me for a very long time. I don't understand why people complain about "having" to spend the holiday with people just because they share the same genetic material - not if they don't enjoy the company, anyway. Thanksgiving, like any other holiday or celebration, should be spent in the company of people you enjoy being around. But that's just my opinion. It might be the a result of having no parents and having decided years ago that bloodties don't necessarily equate loyalty or obligation.
In any case, Thanksgiving is simply a day for me to relax, not be at work and enjoy the company of the people I love of my own free choice - whether relatives or friends - and to show that love by letting my inner chef off the leash and going apeshit in the kitchen. I'm one of those people who's more comfortable expressing deep emotion through actions, and cooking's just one of the best ways to do so. It's a day to reflect on and demonstrate how thankful I am for the presence of those I love in my life because you're right - it's a cold, hard Universe and in the blink of an eye you can lose those you love for no other reason than random causes. Since we don't know how long we have with each other and all we have is the now, I say there's nothing wrong with taking the day to spend with your family, in whatever form it may take, and engaging in a tradition as old as humanity: the sharing of food, drink & good company.
And come on - curmudgeon or not, you have to admit that a well-done turkey is damn tasty.
So to everyone at Pharyngula, Happy Thanksgiving/Harvest Festival/Nationally-sanctioned Gluttony Day. I'm thankful to have found this blog and for the many hours of enjoyment & intellectual stimulation I've found here.
Posted by: Titfortat | November 26, 2009 4:22 PM
PZ
You reminded me of an interesting saying.
"When someone shows you who they are, believe them"
I believe you. ;)
Posted by: vanitas | November 26, 2009 4:25 PM
Haven´t read the whole blog but my two cents worth...what´s with a "special day" to give thanks? My experience is to "give thanks" whenever the mood strikes. A special day to thank your loved ones, that you have a job, that you are healthy, that your children are happy and fulfilled? I don´t think so. Every day you can be "thankful" by demonstrating your feelings to those around you. Saying thankyou for the little things: complimenting your colleagues, taking pleasure in a fabulous sunrise as you wend your way to work, appreciating the first hit of good coffee in the morning, experiencing the full flood of emotion when your children contact you even though you are on the other side of the world, you are alive in the wondrous universe, etc.
The same thing happens with "Christmas" (aka the silly season)...I give gifts through the year as I see them and think of someone who would appreciate a token of my affection. I don´t think that "oh my goodness it´s that time of year, now I have to buy, buy, buy something for somebody". No, give from your connection to others and what you feel for them, not because "the season" says you should.
As PZ says we are here because we´re here not because there is a reason or meaning. Be thankful that you are cogniscent, aware,
Posted by: vanitas | November 26, 2009 4:30 PM
Damn this keyboard...that should be
"cogniscent, aware, and that are able to pass on your genes (if they are worthy). That´s the only reason to be thankful.
Posted by: Ilya | November 26, 2009 4:45 PM
any comments on an accomodationist NYT article about strident atheists, PZ?
The Religious Wars
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/26/opinion/26kristof.html?_r=1&em
Posted by: CalGeorge
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November 26, 2009 4:49 PM
"We're all doomed."
And most of us get to be doomed while living out our natural existences.
Too bad we don't allow turkeys the same opportunity.
Posted by: F
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November 26, 2009 5:01 PM
Here is a good "Thanksgiving" joke. I found it at a total woo site, so I won't force you to go there to read it.
The Navajo Elder's NASA Joke
When NASA was preparing for the Apollo Project, it took the astronauts to a Navajo reservation in Arizona for training.
One day, a Navajo elder and his son came across the space crew walking among the rocks. The elder, who spoke only Navajo, asked a question. His son translated for the NASA people: "What are these guys in the big suits doing?"
One of the astronauts said that they were practicing for a trip to the moon. When his son relayed this comment the Navajo elder got all excited and asked if it would be possible to give to the astronauts a message to deliver to the moon.
Recognizing a promotional opportunity when he saw one, a NASA official accompanying the astronauts said, "Why certainly!" and told an underling to get a tape recorder. The Navajo elder's comments into the microphone were brief.
The NASA official asked the son if he would translate what his father had said. The son listened to the recording and laughed uproariously. But he refused to translate. So the NASA people took the tape to a nearby Navajo village and played it for other members of the tribe. They too laughed long and loudly but also refused to translate the elder's message to the moon.
Finally, an official government translator was summoned. After he finally stopped laughing the translator relayed the message: "Watch out for these assholes - they have come to steal your land."
http://www.rainbowbody.net/Ongwhehonwhe/nasanavajo.htm
(You don't actually have to see any woo when visiting this page directly.)
Posted by: Mr. Knuffke | November 26, 2009 5:15 PM
Someone needs a hug?
Go eat food, be with family and enjoy yourselves.
Posted by: Jack Rawlinson | November 26, 2009 5:37 PM
As I have an American partner I often get to do Thanksgiving (we're having ours tomorrow because she's flying to London today) and we treat it just like we do Christmas: as an excuse for a bloody good pig-out, booze-up and, once the food's settled a bit, shag. I recommend this approach, unless there are kids around, of course. They always ruin things, don't they?
But gratitude? I'm with you on that, PZ. Gratitude to who? To what? That's just silly. It's a nosh-up and a family get-together, that's all.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 26, 2009 5:43 PM
Thanksgiving = thanks for what and to whom? check.
Turkey day = meat = murder. check.
Jesus = way = light = life. wait, what? on an atheist blog? silly.
I've had my fill of text, now it's time for some murder. Delicious murder with cranberry sauce.
Posted by: Veovis | November 26, 2009 5:47 PM
I'm surprised at the apparent vehemence over this post (e.g., #168). I really think it comes down to a matter of semantics, though. It's one thing to feel fortunate that you have the things you do, and maybe I'm misinterpreting PZ's intent, but it doesn't seem to me that he's claiming theres anything wrong with that. But gratitude is more than feeling fortunate, it requires proactively thanking someone or something. You can express gratitude to other people, such as friends and family for things like their generosity towards you. But there is no one there to receive your gratitude in regards to, for example, overall existence. Be sure to thank deserving people who might experience gladness, happiness as a result. But arbitrarily thanking existence for allowing you to be a part of it is about as meaningful as praying to a nonexistent deity. That is, it is ultimately meaningless.
Posted by: The Dude | November 26, 2009 5:47 PM
This post has little to do with atheism, but a lot to do with mere cynicism. Oh, well.
~
"Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos."
Posted by: Knockgoats | November 26, 2009 5:50 PM
Happy Monkey!
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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November 26, 2009 6:09 PM
F #185
I love that story. If it isn't true it should be.
Posted by: efrique | November 26, 2009 6:32 PM
If you're feeling this strange sensation of being grateful for existence or for good fortune, though, I wonder…would you be resentful of nonexistence, or place blame for random bad luck?
I plan to be as utterly resentful of my nonexistence as I am capable, and to eyelessly glare with all the bale I can muster at the universe for its lack of care of what was clearly its most important product.
Which is to say, not at all, since nonexistence doesn't really permit much of anything.
But it will be a distinctly resentful nonexistence all the same.
Posted by: Lola | November 26, 2009 6:42 PM
Ok, so I'm not grateful or thankful, but I really appreciate you, Dr. Myers. And your posting makes the most sense of this strange day as any I have heard. I could never had said it better. Thank you, err, uh, thank me.
Posted by: Lola Again | November 26, 2009 6:54 PM
Why do we still celebrate Eurotrash invading a beautiful land with their diseases physical and mental by killing inhumanely produced birds? What does a dead bird have to do with the raping of America?
Posted by: Haley | November 26, 2009 6:57 PM
Well, I like thanksgiving. In my family we've never had a group prayer, or even bowed our heads. We just go around the table and say something about being thankful for family and good food. Its an excuse to break out the good china and good silver, and have a festive feast.
I do wonder how it will be this year though since my aunt and uncle converted to christianity. I doubt my mother, the hostess, will let them thank a deity for her hard work though.
Posted by: daveau | November 26, 2009 7:11 PM
I've agreed with PZ's position for 30 years now. I stopped going home for Thanksgiving long ago, mostly because the whole thing makes me irritated and miserable. The spousal unit, fortunately, agrees with me regarding how Native Americans see the holiday, so we never do much. She is, however, down in St Louis visiting her Aunt in hospice, leaving me alone all weekend. Normally, this would be an excuse for another Drunken Hooker Party Weekend(TM), but under the circumstances, I feel I should be a little more austere. Nevertheless, I have revived one indulgence from my 20s for today: I'm having a turkey pot pie for dinner. Yum!
Posted by: Pete | November 26, 2009 7:25 PM
I'm thankful Dallas beat the point spread.
Posted by: frzz | November 26, 2009 7:35 PM
@David Estlund
"I've had my fill of text, now it's time for some murder. Delicious murder with cranberry sauce."
Me and a few others made lengthy posts with logical, reasoned arguments as to why we think the way we do. If you have a rebuttal as to why you think our arguments are flawed, please go ahead and speak up. Snarky dismissal and ridicule are tactics employed by religious nuts and other people with no real counter-argument.
Posted by: Ellie
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November 26, 2009 7:50 PM
I may not place blame for random bad luck, but I do feel angry and resentful when it happens. Considering that and the fact that we seem to be evolutionarily set up to feel bad emotions more strongly than good ones* I think I will continue to feel vague warm fuzzy feelings of non directed gratitude that, like the turkey, my life has been mostly comfortable. Even though I am a Brit and we don't celebrate thanksgiving. Occasional bless counting is good for the psyche, even if you believe the things only happened through random chance.
*cue vague feelings of resentment and anger at no one in particular.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 26, 2009 9:06 PM
frzz of course I have no real counter-argument. I never said it was right. It's turkey day.
Posted by: Samantha
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November 26, 2009 9:17 PM
Mmmm... delicious murder.
You know, some of us just aren't build to not defy our natural status as omnivores. Some of us are allergic to beans (yes, even soy), lactose intolerant and hate nuts. But, of course, those of us who can't bend to the almighty righteousness of vegetarianism will have to perish in agony just so that no poor innocent animals die, right?
It is possible to eat meat that has been treated humanely, raised with care and killed quickly and efficiently and as painlessly as possible. Some of us actually go out of our way to do so. Don't rant against any and all meat-eating unless you're also going to rant against all killing (and actually doing something about it might be nice too). Rant against the fact that government agencies don't see the need to ensure humane treatment for meat animals, if you must.
The greatest flaw of most vegetarians is that they're doing it because they think not eating meat means they're better than everyone else. It really doesn't. Nobody's forcing you to eat meat. You're welcome to your Tofurkey and we're welcome to our birds and none of us are better than the other. In fact, I'd say that most meat-eaters are quite happy to have you not eating the meat and leaving more for them.
I myself will enjoy my roast beef tonight, cut from a cow that I helped hand-raise and who did live a happy and fulfilling two and a bit years. I will be grateful for the extra two years she got after not being eaten by wolves her first winter, the extra bit of a year she got when she twisted a joint in her front leg and was set up in a comfortable stall rather than being left as the weakest of the herd trying to keep up and all the nights I went into the barn to check up on the herd and spent a little extra time with her. I'm also going to be grateful for the fact that she died quickly, that my uncle cares for his cows and that I am able to get sustenance from cows like her rather than dying in my youth because I can't eat anything else that would give me enough protein. If that makes me a bad person in the eyes of vegetarians, so be it. I am healthy and I do my best to ensure that I only support farmers that care for their animals.
Posted by: Janet Holmes | November 26, 2009 9:23 PM
Not being American it took me a while to figure out Thanksgiving, but I thought it was an historical thing, that you were all rather ironically giving thanks to the Indians for not letting you all starve to death in winter. I often wondered if the Indians didn't wish their ancestors were a bit less charitable!
But maybe my understanding of this little American festivity is mistaken. Do Canadians do Thanksgiving?
Posted by: Rev. Bigdumbchimp | November 26, 2009 9:47 PM
I hear ya Samantha.
Heritage breeds and small farms are the way to go.
Posted by: Patricia, OM | November 26, 2009 10:01 PM
Heritage breeds and small farms are the way to go.
Yup. It's tough to do, but we made it through 2009. Please keep supporting your local farmers. (Especially us Cluckhead egg producers)
Posted by: pablo | November 26, 2009 10:04 PM
"Don't beam happy thoughts at the farmers who stocked your larder — they can't hear you, and they did it for their own personal profit anyway."
I don't know PZ. When I was in West AFrica I was taught the tradition of every time you passed by a farmer toiling in the field, shout out "thank you!". I thought it was a nice tradition, especially coming from a people who thought it was unusual to thank them for small courtesies, like passing the salt.
Posted by: Ol'Greg | November 26, 2009 10:17 PM
hmmm.... well I am thankful and grateful. I'm lucky to be alive and I owe that to a lot of people some of whom I probably will never have the opportunity to thank. I don't feel in debt to the universe, but I'm in a better place right now that I was even just two years ago and I feel a sense of good fortune and happiness that I've had opportunities. The universe, well, I don't see it as caring or uncaring.
[quote]I wonder…would you be resentful of nonexistence, or place blame for random bad luck?[/quote]
PZ I'm nobody and I love your blog so please don't dungeon me but I respectfully disagree.
I couldn't be resentful for nonexistence I don't think because I either wouldn't exist (thus being nothing right?) or can't imagine what doesn't exist. As for random bad luck, no, that just is what it is. I've had plenty, but I am grateful to the people in the world who have helped, even indirectly. It helps me to feel this because I've tried to help people too and I hope that it has mattered even a little.
Perhaps I'm too silly, but that's just how I am.
Posted by: Ol'Greg | November 26, 2009 10:21 PM
Oh, and just to be extra perverse, just as some others have said. I'm thankful for you PZ, for what you do... even if you don't do it for me it has helped me in my life and I'm glad for that.
So you just take that!
Posted by: Sean McCorkle
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November 26, 2009 10:23 PM
It's an appropriate time to return something to the descendants of those who helped some of our ancestors, made even more important because of the plagues and atrocities that they endured at our hands. To try to ameliorate the suffering that still continues to this day. There are plenty of groups,
AIRC Thanksgiving being one example.
Posted by: Ol'Greg | November 26, 2009 10:26 PM
Oh I never can remember what tags to use on what sites! lol
Posted by: Somnolent Aphid
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November 26, 2009 10:45 PM
cheese and rice Copernicus, if i could spell I wouldn't be a frigging aphid would i?
Posted by: Copernicus | November 26, 2009 11:21 PM
to Somnolent Aphid #211:
But the rest of your rant was a cause for concern
As I feel you inferred incorrectly;
PZ’s point was indeed that through life he has learned
One should express thanks for your fam’ly.
But not on a day to be misconstrued
As commercial and totally crass-
Be thankful whenever the time or the mood,
“Cheese and rice”? What a dumb Khyber Pass!
Posted by: Pete Schult | November 26, 2009 11:42 PM
And a hearty "Bah, humbug" to you, too.
Actually, I liked your post and the cartoon. At the celebration of the subjugation of the native peoples I attended today, some people expressed the feeling that they were happy for x, where x was some positive thing in their life, but there was no directed thanks to a deity or the uncaring universe.
I also like the sentiment one commenter expressed about today being the beginning of the annual War on Christmas. I would certainly like to take part in this war, but I have the bad habit of saying "Merry Christmas" to people who I know to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christmas, "Happy Chanukah" to Jewish friends, and so on. I know I should either keep Saturn in the Saturnalia, the Fest in Festivus, or wish people a bland, generic "Happy Holidays" instead of finding out whether they actually celebrate a holiday and which one and tailoring my meaningless nicety to their circumstances, but there you are.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 12:13 AM
Sorry for riling the vegans. I really meant no offense. You're doing a good thing and I'm not being sarcastic. I was vegetarian for 6 years to varying degrees, even vegan for 6 months (that was rough), and I worked at Whole Foods for nearly a decade, so I understand what you're trying to accomplish.
And I do celebrate four traditional holidays, being Thanksgiving Christmas, New Year's Eve, and Halloween. The first two are obligatory family nights, at which we all drink too much wine and find out one another's dirty secrets, congratulate one another, and commiserate when applicable. The latter two are nights which I try to spend with as many friends as possible, one in a costume, the other with lots of champagne. Neither have anything to do with God, luck, the cosmos, or warm fuzzy feelings of "holiday cheer." They're just annual dates with either family or friends, and if I didn't take them as obligatory, I think I would lose something valuable.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 12:15 AM
Oh I left one out. I also celebrate the Pastafarian "Holiday," which takes place sometime between now and mid-January, and involves nothing in particular.
Posted by: blah | November 27, 2009 12:23 AM
soybeans don't have a nervous system or feel pain, so yes you are off the hook eating them
Posted by: Christopher Petroni | November 27, 2009 12:29 AM
As Winnie the Pooh once said, "As long as it means that, I don't mind."
Posted by: frzz | November 27, 2009 12:40 AM
"You know, some of us just aren't build to not defy our natural status as omnivores.Some of us are allergic to beans (yes, even soy), lactose intolerant and hate nuts."
There are ways around food allergies to still be vegan. Just because we can eat animals doesn't mean we can't make the choice not to.
"But, of course, those of us who can't bend to the almighty righteousness of vegetarianism will have to perish in agony just so that no poor innocent animals die, right?"
See my earlier comments (re: same tired arguments religious nuts use)
"It is possible to eat meat that has been treated humanely, raised with care and killed quickly and efficiently and as painlessly as possible. Some of us actually go out of our way to do so."
The pain, while shitty, isn't even the real issue. It is the "sentient creature being used as a meat/egg/milk machine".
Don't rant against any and all meat-eating unless you're also going to rant against all killing (and actually doing something about it might be nice too). Rant against the fact that government agencies don't see the need to ensure humane treatment for meat animals, if you must.
I am as equally opposed to animals murder and suffering as i am to human murder and suffering. Humans are just animals, after all.
"The greatest flaw of most vegetarians is that they're doing it because they think not eating meat means they're better than everyone else."
Replace vegetarians with atheists and "not eating meat" with "not believing in god". I am not better than meat eaters. I just am consistent in my moral choices.
"You're welcome to your Tofurkey and we're welcome to our birds and none of us are better than the other."
My vegan diet does not require the slaughter of countless sentient creatures. My diet is better.
"I myself will enjoy my roast beef tonight, cut from a cow that I helped hand-raise and who did live a happy and fulfilling two and a bit years. I will be grateful for the extra two years she got after not being eaten by wolves her first winter, the extra bit of a year she got when she twisted a joint in her front leg and was set up in a comfortable stall rather than being left as the weakest of the herd trying to keep up and all the nights I went into the barn to check up on the herd and spent a little extra time with her."
Good story. Appealing for sympathy doesn't make your argument any more valid.
"...I am able to get sustenance from cows like her rather than dying in my youth because I can't eat anything else that would give me enough protein."
I'll bite. are you allergic to beans and nuts?
"If that makes me a bad person in the eyes of vegetarians, so be it."
Do we think that religious people are "bad"? no, we just think they are ignorant and misguided.
"I am healthy and I do my best to ensure that I only support farmers that care for their animals."
Happy, well cared for slaves are still slaves, and slaughtered, no matter what precedes it is still slaughtered.
Posted by: Rohit | November 27, 2009 12:40 AM
Samantha,
Snide remarks that aim to ridicule would not be necessary if you had a real point to make.
You need to recognize that sophisticated arguments for vegetarianism aren't rigid doctrines that neglect situations. For example, if you weren't able to survive and be healthy as a vegetarian, no sane person would still urge you towards that. I would contend that human life is irrefutably more valuable as animal life. However, in cases where a person can live a healthy, normal life on a vegetarian diet, I think it is a moral obligation to do so. Indulging in meat at that point would be inflicting unnecessary pain and suffering on a sentient animal.
People choose to not eat meat for various reasons. The reason we are discussing is the moral issue. Sure, there might be wackos who do it to feel better, there are wackos everywhere. It is a pity that you evade the real moral issue by bunching all vegetarians into the wacko group.
Yes it definitely is, and a lot of vegetarians appreciate people who take the effort to ensure that their meat was derived in a cruelty-free fashion. There are various degrees to this issue again, and you need to recogonize it for that.
Posted by: Maezeppa | November 27, 2009 12:43 AM
LOL - my sense of PZ is that he's trying too hard to be a curmudgeon. His naturally ebullient personality just doesn't get totally concealed no matter how hard he tries.
Posted by: Copernicus | November 27, 2009 1:03 AM
to Pete Schult #213
No “z” in your name? No bald-headed boy?
No Linus, no Lucy, nor Schroeder?
“Meaningless niceties”, sure, don’t be coy
I know that you’re really his brother.
And all through the night, that dark, stormy night,
The one where the maid had to scream,
You waited awake for that wonderful sight:
The Great Pumpkin, it wasn’t a dream!
So Peter my man, please put in a word
To Charlie where’er he might be,
This holiday season, this time of the year
Would be great if he was still here.
However I’m told that those Navajo bold
Told the spacemen to go take a hike;
Their story quite rightly should still be retold
How their land was took in the night.
Plymouth Rock has it’s place, as the tea in the harbor,
But surely the buff’lo should roam
Free from rBGH, Micotil, and that Nuflor;
It’s mass-produced meat we bemoan.
So turkeys or geese, or Cornish Game hen
Or proteins that fake they’re a meat,
The thought for the day should really be sob’ring:
Give thanks, but not with deceit.
Posted by: SG | November 27, 2009 1:08 AM
Yes, thank you Veovis (comment #157). The turkey who you may have eaten tonight certainly didn't live her life "dumb and mostly content". For one thing, I've met turkeys with intelligence to rival any creationst's (bad example?). And she lived a dreadful existence that no empathetic person would consciously wish on another.
Very mild info for anyone who wants to learn more: http://www.adoptaturkey.org/aat/issues/index.html
Posted by: Patricia, OM | November 27, 2009 1:16 AM
OK, do you want a comment from an actual farmer?
We have chickens, girls only. They lay eggs. Because we have NO roosters the eggs are not fertile. The girls don't give one tinkers damn about their eggs. They lay them and walk away.
Eggs are a part of chicken life, just like eggs are a part of MY human female life. I have an egg every month, not every day. Honestly, I don't give a shit about my egg.
Hens have a clutch of eggs. Just ask your local farmer, you'll be surprised how easy it is.
Posted by: frzz | November 27, 2009 1:26 AM
patricia, OM
I disagree with eggs as food because the animals are being used as "food making machines", with no consideration to whether or not they deserve being treated as property and kept in cages. Slavery is slavery.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 1:37 AM
Great. I've started a flame war. Sorry, PZ, I promise I didn't mean to. Tofurkey tastes great. Having worked at a natural supermarket for so long (great use of a liberal arts degree ;D), I have to say that tensions run high around a holiday traditionally associated with meat. And vegans/vegetarians get tired of defending themselves. They're doing what they're doing because of a deep-seated disciplinary commitment they have made for rational reasons, and they don't like getting made fun of. I've been there.
So I'll say this: those of us who eat meat should put thought into where the meat came from, what resources were required to produce it, what damage was done by the production of it, and how humanely the livestock was treated. Those of us who don't should put effort into accentuating the positive effects of our lifestyle on our health and the environment. Shaming people either way won't help.
Posted by: Maggie Moo | November 27, 2009 1:42 AM
Samantha,
It's rather late and although I'm enjoying the odd Copernican rhyme, I do have to leave for work in less than 5 hours so I'll let others address the issue of the morality of killing any animals with you, but I hope you will note for the future that ensuring you get enough protein in your diet, regardless of whether you have soy or wheat allergies, is really very easy.
I'm a former Olympian and haven't eaten meat/seafood for over 30 years- my training was tough and demanding, as is some of the work I do now as a conservation biologist, but I've never had a problem with my diet or my health at all.
It is normally recommended (although there will always be exceptions) that women should get about 45 grams of protein daily, with 55 for men but it doesn't have to all come in one source at one time- most foods, even green vegetables such as broccoli and cabbage, contain at least a small amount of protein.
In the 20th anniversary edition of her book Diet for a Small Planet, Francis Moore Lappé writes that in general, people eating a sufficient number of calories would only be deficient in protein if their diets were highly dependent on a few very low-protein foods. That hasn't changed. Most people, even vegetarians, meet and even exceed their protein needs without even thinking about it.
If you're allergic to one or more high-protein vegetarian protein sources, you'll need to meet your protein needs in other ways. Amaranth (Amaranthus caudatus, A. cruentus, and A. hypochondriacus), quinoa (primarily Chenopodium quinoa), and teff (Eragrostis tef) are top choices. These three grains aren't especially well-known here in the States, but are suitable for vegan and allergen-afflicted vegetarian diets, high in protein, and gluten-free. Whole-grain amaranth and quinoa are fairly easy to find, and quinoa-corn pasta blends are becoming more widely available at major supermarkets. Teff, an Ethiopian grain, may be more difficult to find, but some health food stores or grocery co-ops may stock it.
Posted by: Geoffrey | November 27, 2009 1:58 AM
That's your decision but where do you come off trying to dictate to others?
Reading back through a few of your earlier comments (and some supporters comments) I was struck by the similarity to the same method some of the religious use when commenting here. They may start with some initial comment and then try and claim moral authority in subsequent comments.
If you don't want to eat meat then fine. Don't eat meat. I'm happy with my personal decision to eat meat at this time. That's not to say that I might change my mind in the future but that's going to be me decision and not forced on my by anyone.
Posted by: Geoffrey | November 27, 2009 2:00 AM
Apologies for the errors of wording in my previous comment. I spellchecked the wrong word.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 2:24 AM
Now that both sides have brought out the accusations of using the tactics of the religious, I can say the following: I'm sorry but it's true for both perspectives on eating meat, and useful for neither.
We who eat meat do so because it's what humans do. Meat is food. Animals are meat. We domesticated animals for their meat, and it is a very effective source of nutrition (and yes, it's tasty). That's fine and well, but we have to recognize the flip side:
We are not so different from those animals. Biology teaches us this; let's not pretend otherwise. Pain and suffering are not only universal, but necessary for survival, at least in every species of animal we eat as food. At the very least we should see to it that livestock are treated as humanely as possible. The further considerations are for the most part ecological: livestock consume vast amounts of resources and damage still more.
These are the two perspectives and to fail to consider or completely discount either is to jump to "religious" presumption. I eat meat, but to do so I must accept that I am causing harm and take steps to reduce it. To assume that eating meat is my god-given right, to borrow a phrase, and laugh off those who don't is disrespectful. More power to those who don't, but likewise shame only works on believers.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 2:29 AM
That last sentence was bad: More power to those who don't, but you must realize that attempting to shame someone who disagrees with you will not change their minds.
Posted by: Geoffrey | November 27, 2009 2:53 AM
@David
I agree with your revised statement and it's what I tried to get across in my little spiel just not as eloquently.
Cheers.
Posted by: Joe Zamecki | November 27, 2009 3:16 AM
Ok, I don’t like Thanksgiving at all, and I’m going to sound off about it just once:
Who are you thanking if not a god? Sure, you can make sense by thanking people for their hard work, but Christians created this holiday so that you could thank their god.
When I was a Christian, Thanksgiving was a VERY important religious holiday. I never could figure out why an Atheist would want to try to secularize it. Just like Christmas. How many other parts of religion do we need to try to co-opt?
It’s their party, their problem. We don’t need to wait for one particular day of the year to thank people. Sheesh!
Some of us don’t like religious holidays, even if we try to secularize them. It’s useless. We should be original instead. Trying to use someone else’s special day for our own purposes is dishonest and unecessary. We DO have better holiday ideas. Just because the majority doesn’t recognize them doesn’t mean we need to give up in that regard.
Plus I have some Cherokee in me. That’s another huge set of reasons. There are more. Gluttony…sloth…one need not be religious in order to see such obvious and repeated problems.
I’m glad it’s over. Now to the War on Christmas! Charge!
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 3:21 AM
@Geoffrey,
Thank you, and I meant no direct offense, I really was waiting for someone else to bring up religionist strategy. It's a double-edged sword, as it were.
Posted by: Ol'Greg | November 27, 2009 8:12 AM
Hmmm... one thing I think is funny to add. While I do feel thankful, yesterday and today as well actually. I spent the holiday with my cat and ate some leftover rice pillau :P
So Happy Friday too ppl!
Posted by: llewelly | November 27, 2009 9:53 AM
I am grateful for PZ Myers. And so many others I've gotten to know here.Posted by: owlbear1 | November 27, 2009 11:03 AM
Dr. Meyers,
I am not sure if you have noticed, but THE DAYS ARE GETTING SHORTER!!
Each new day brings fewer and fewer minutes of daylight. This has been going on for MONTHS!!!
Yesterday was an attempt to stop that horrifying trend! It appears to have failed. Sunrise this morning was STILL later.
We may have to have another Party again next month.
Can't you just do your part to help save daylight and
HAVE FUN??
Why do you hate daylight so much?
Posted by: frzz | November 27, 2009 1:00 PM
"Now that both sides have brought out the accusations of using the tactics of the religious, I can say the following: I'm sorry but it's true for both perspectives on eating meat, and useful for neither."
Religious people's basis for their arguments is "the bible says so" or "god says so". My arguments are based on testable, observable to a lay-person data. (We don't treat humans like property, because humans feel pain and have the right to live their life unmolested by others. Animals feel pain in almost the exact same way, and should be given the same amount of consideration when it comes to their inherent right to a unmolested life. Humans can survive without eating animals, so we shouldn't do it.)
"We who eat meat do so because it's what humans do. Meat is food. Animals are meat. We domesticated animals for their meat, and it is a very effective source of nutrition (and yes, it's tasty."
Again, just because the generations before us did heinous shit does not follow that we have to as well. We are back to thinking like the "my family has been catholic for 5 generations" nonsense.
"We are not so different from those animals. Biology teaches us this; let's not pretend otherwise. Pain and suffering are not only universal, but necessary for survival, at least in every species of animal we eat as food. At the very least we should see to it that livestock are treated as humanely as possible. The further considerations are for the most part ecological: livestock consume vast amounts of resources and damage still more."
It takes up to 12,000 gallons of water to produce a pound of beef, and up to 16 pounds of grain to produce that same pound of beef. Even if we were not talking about living creatures, the economics of meat production are backwards.
"These are the two perspectives and to fail to consider or completely discount either is to jump to "religious" presumption. I eat meat, but to do so I must accept that I am causing harm and take steps to reduce it. To assume that eating meat is my god-given right, to borrow a phrase, and laugh off those who don't is disrespectful. More power to those who don't, but likewise shame only works on believers."
Shame is not my goal. I am giving you data that can be proven, and then making a plain statement.
Eating animals is a morally bankrupt, ecological and economic nightmare that the majority of the world does in spite of clear evidence.
When someone says "I understand that belief in god is nonsensical, but to stop would mean making a drastic change in my life and or alienate me from my social network, which would be hard.", we would call them cowards. My point is that continuing to eat meat when there are copious reasons as to why it is not a good thing is cowardice for the same reasons.
Posted by: Somnolent Aphid
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November 27, 2009 1:02 PM
it was a dumb kyber pass, i admit it.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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November 27, 2009 1:11 PM
Yawn, another boring proselytizer from the animal rights groups. Killfile.
Posted by: frzz | November 27, 2009 1:38 PM
"Yawn, another boring proselytizer from the animal rights groups. Killfile."
So, basically what you are saying is "la la la, i can't hear you, my fingers are in my ears. you are a poop-head."
Refute my arguments. Outright dismissal is yet another tired tactic of people who have no real counter-argument.
Why can't you apply the same logic to your food that you do to god?
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 1:40 PM
Jeez Louise. I can't win for losing here. I try to assuage the hurt egos and get called morally bankrupt and heinous. I was irritated by extremist attitudes like yours, frzz, when I was vegan.
Posted by: frzz | November 27, 2009 1:53 PM
"Jeez Louise. I can't win for losing here. I try to assuage the hurt egos and get called morally bankrupt and heinous. I was irritated by extremist attitudes like yours, frzz, when I was vegan."
When combating the cognitive dissonance of believing in a higher power, we are often befuddled by why the believers get so bent out of shape when we metaphorically "kick over their idols". I am sorry that presenting my case in clear, unambiguous language gets your knickers in a twist, but I stand by my statements. I think the mental disconnect is almost identical to the one in regards to how we treat animals. Feel free to make a counter-argument.
What is it about my attitude that is extreme? It seems perfectly logical to me.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 2:04 PM
As always on the intertubes, the problem is a matter of tone. I'm not upset about anything. I'm not arguing the facts with you; they're true, or at least they sound about right to me. Our difference lies in the conclusions we draw. I take a moderate harm-reduction stance; you take an extreme prohibition stance. A lot of people take a "meat is yummy, fuck you!" stance which both of us can disagree with. You call me morally bankrupt, which isn't nice, but it really doesn't bother me because I know where you're coming from, and although we haven't reached the same conclusions, I understand yours.
Posted by: Everbleed | November 27, 2009 2:21 PM
Harvest festivals seem to come naturally to people. Here in the Mecca of Marijuana, Redway/Garberville, Humboldt County, California, USA, Earth; the Harvest Festival celebrated on Thanksgiving Day had the participants bringing their grandest "Growers Stash"... giant donkey dicks of colas often measuring nearly two feet long to the event. Everyone celebrated the harvest, feted the most awesome buds, and the impending arrival of a lot of money, and a ton of food and fun was had by all.
Now that the "indoor" wave has hit our local community due to the increase in both technologies and law enforcement, the harvest is no longer seasonal. But the Thanksgiving celebration remains pretty much the same. The donkey dicks are gone, replaced by uniform industrialized pot, but the desire to celebrate remains. The comparisons and bragging rights continue. It could be corn, it could be meat or soybeans, but whatever it is we seem to like to celebrate whatever harvest we reap formally.
So PZ, why not just roll a fattie and chill baby.
Posted by: frzz | November 27, 2009 2:35 PM
@David E.
A "moderate harm-reduction stance" in regards to human slavery would be pointless, because it does not address the basic problem of "they deserve to not be treated like property or means to an end". Since I already made the argument that humans and non-humans deserve at least the same considerations when it comes to "pain-avoidance/right to live unmolested" issues, it follows that anything less than abolishment of animals as food/food making machines is meaningless half-stepping.
Again, when we say "god is not real, and following the bible/koran leads down terrible, morally bankrupt paths", it might be "mean", but that does not make it false.
Posted by: Geoffrey | November 27, 2009 3:05 PM
Doesn't make it true either.
How much longer are you going to belabour your main point? You've stated your case ad infinitum.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 3:06 PM
Oh that's where you're coming from. In that case, no, we don't see eye to eye. I look at the issue entirely from a self-interested human perspective. Failing to improve the systems by which we raise and slaughter livestock are Very Bad ThingsTM, and I think we should do our best to reduce and ultimately eliminate the suffering of animals, but I don't have any interest in affording them human rights. We haven't finished getting those for ourselves yet.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 3:14 PM
Also, I kind of have to say that comparing anything that has nothing to do with a supernatural deity to theism on an atheist blog is a lot like comparing anything anywhere to anything the Nazis did (or didn't do). It doesn't win, and it's likely to end any useful conversation.
Posted by: Maggie Moo | November 27, 2009 3:31 PM
@ David #248:
certainly additional support for Godwin's Law!
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 3:47 PM
@Maggie Moo,
But is comparing a fallacy to a Godwin a Godwin in itself? I don't want to be the one that Godwin'd the argument...
Posted by: frzz | November 27, 2009 3:59 PM
@Geoffrey
"Doesn't make it true either."
But it is.
"How much longer are you going to belabor your main point?"
How long should any activist argue their point? Until everyone changes their actions. Or as long as I draw a breath. Which is also as long as I am gonna argue that "god isn't real".
@david e
I am not arguing that animals deserve human rights (like voting, marriage, right to own property, etc.) I am merely suggesting that we give them equal consideration as sentient creatures. (so no eating them, owning them, displaying them as trophies, vivisection, etc.)
"...comparing anything that has nothing to do with a supernatural deity to theism...etc."
See post #242. My comparison has more to do with how the point is being argued. In both cases, facts are being willingly ignored to avoid having to make a difficult choice. If you think I am overstepping, tell me why.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 4:22 PM
frzz @251,
Those are civil rights. Human rights are more along the lines of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." No facts are being ignored, just opinions.
Posted by: Maggie Moo | November 27, 2009 4:31 PM
@David
Too late I'm afraid- you are hoping that it only constitutes the logical fallacy reductio ad Hitlerum, which says "Hitler (or the Nazis) liked X, so X is bad", but the original concept rule is actually defined as "as a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
Furthermore, "as well as the descriptive form, it can be used prescriptively: so if any poster does mention the Nazis in a discussion thread, Godwin’s Law can be invoked, they instantly lose the argument and the thread can be ended."
And unfortunately, although I cannot read your mind or intent, your hope against hope articulated in #250 cancels out any chance of "Quirk’s Exception"!
PZ, as a loyal Pharyngulite I hereby invoke Godwin's Law, and while comments voluntarily posted by frzz may indeed be used in mitigating argument by the offender, one David Estlund, this thread must be terminated. Any and all sentencing decisions are hereby deferred to you.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 5:06 PM
Aww, c'mon, please? I was just illustrating a faulty argument by comparing it with one that gets thrown around a lot. What Nazis actually do or don't do was never intended to be a part of the discussion. I plead innocent, if only on a technicality. Unless the sentencing guidelines in Kingdom Pharyngula are similar to those over at Castle Anthrax. Then I plead, "Guilty as charged! And what's more, Hitler!"
Posted by: frzz | November 27, 2009 5:06 PM
rofl.
Posted by: Circe | November 27, 2009 5:49 PM
Pie and wary vigilance... Does it get any better?
Posted by: joseph | November 27, 2009 6:00 PM
I'm actually grateful to have time to spend with my family, grateful to have a job to put food on our plates and grateful we're intelligent enough to invent technology to create blogs whining about the feeling of gratitude.
I don't have a problem with the idea of a day dedicated to giving thanks. We often forget to. It would be nice, as some say, if we remembered all the time; we don't. My problem is the commercialization of the holiday and the destruction of the ideal of gratitude with the economically-goading shadow-holiday of Black Friday. The one holiday people can rarely make much money off of, and they found a way, and everyone was a sucker for it.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 6:16 PM
joseph, I think PZ's point is that "giving thanks to God" or "the cosmos" or what have you is a waste of time. Consider to whom you should be grateful and express it to them, when it's appropriate. Setting aside for a day of contemplation of what we should be grateful for won't help you, unless you end that day with a list of other people to thank for things.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 6:26 PM
Our Thanksgiving Lesson from Jack Chick (via Blag Hag)
Chick tracts = good times!
Posted by: Joseph | November 27, 2009 8:38 PM
And MY point is there's nothing in the damned history of the holiday that talks about giving thanks to god or the cosmos. The pilgrims thanked the native americans for giving them food when they were hungry (before, of course, pretending they could take their land.) It's a holiday about HUMAN BEINGS helping each other out. It's only PZ's perverted obsession with the mythical supreme being - and his determination to prove his obsession doesn't exist - that forces him to see the holiday in that paradigm. If you only have a hammer, every holiday starts to look like a nail...
Posted by: Geoffrey | November 27, 2009 11:17 PM
Historically it was a religious observation to give thanks to god.
Posted by: David Estlund | November 27, 2009 11:21 PM
According to Wikipedia: "The first Thanksgiving was celebrated to give thanks to God for helping the Pilgrims of Plymouth Colony survive the brutal winter."
That said, I was never taught to celebrate it as a particularly religious holiday, although it did always start with a very peculiar prayer. I didn't mean to belabor the point with you; I just thought you misunderstood the post.
Posted by: Rohit | November 28, 2009 12:04 AM
I'm afraid that personal decisions are not immune to scrutiny, and can even be intruded upon, in cases when it happens to affect the rights of others. Here, we are talking about the rights of animals. Last I checked, a person couldn't enact the personal decision to engage in dog fighting or other forms of animal torture for entertainment, even if it made the person happy and he/she didn't want to change his/her mind. I don't realistically expect any legislation to be passed anytime soon banning the torture and killing of animals for meat, but that doesn't mean that people are going to stop trying. And noone is using force to stop you from eating meat, but merely expressing the facts and logic behind the argument.
Posted by: Geoffrey | November 28, 2009 12:54 AM
Personal decisions obviously still have to work inside of current laws.
Neither do I but a more effective method would be lobbying their local/state/federal representatives. Repeating the same statements endlessly and implying lack of morals if we don't agree on an internet blog just comes across as whiny. Vegebotting is no different than godbotting.
Posted by: Shamar
|
November 28, 2009 1:38 AM
Well, I'll be happy to say (after reading this post) that I never thanked vague ideals for shit. I went to see my mother and my brother. I went to a poetry slam the night before Thanksgiving, and on the day...we listened to some music and ate the turkey, sweet potatoes, mashed potatoes, green beans, cranberry jelly, pumpkin pie, etc, and the only thing I said, or thought, thank you too is my mother and my brother for being there for me......nothing else really came to mind.
Yesterday was about getting together with those I love and all of us letting each other know how much we appreciated each other.
I see no other reason for the Thanksgiving holiday, and neither do my mother or brother. We just enjoyed our time together in Austin Texas :-)
http://bit.ly/RuUcx
Posted by: Rohit | November 28, 2009 1:54 AM
I don't see any statements repeated endlessly, just a discussion of an issue based on reason. Oh right, it is easier and more convenient to dismiss an argument as 'whiny' instead of coming up with logical counterpoints.
Animal rights groups are involved in lobbying. I think more attention needs to be focused on making people aware of the issue, and getting past the ridicule that is thoughtlessly thrown at anyone who tries to bring up the topic.
Posted by: Geoffrey | November 28, 2009 4:08 AM
What reason? All I've seen from both sides are opinions.
I've explained why I eat what I eat and telling me I'm not moral for doing so isn't an effective way of engaging me to change my mind.
Posted by: astrounit | November 28, 2009 4:40 AM
Late as usual, but I completely concur.
The ratty part about "Thanksgiving" (and the one and only thing that's TRULY RATTY about it) is that it - like so many other fine cultural traditions - has been, yet again, monopolized by religious interests, to twist the sentiment towards their particular ends.
They never miss a trick.
Here is a putatively wonderful celebration of a mutual tolerance and respect between disparate cultures - between people who believe in different things - and ONE participant in that episode takes it as a testament of their priority, never mind that the OTHER HALF of the pact were systematically eradicated for being the "savages" they were.
Again, another chapter of just how relentlessly INTOLERANT those who profess "love" and "tolerance" in the name of their favorite object of veneration, you guessed it, "Christians", are.
It didn't take long, did it? Little more than a single generation - before the pact was broken, and an entire people along with their culture was consigned to oblivion...because CHRISTIANS ultimately couldn't handle the idea that anybody couldn't abide by their rules.
FIE!!!
Thanksgiving, to me, is a time to wear black, in the observance of a terrible destruction, well documented in history, of a people who no longer grace this planet.
All because of some consummately assinine belief system that the invaders mindlessly borrowed from another part of the world (where much insanity continues to reign to this day) - but which suitably fitted the conquering appetites of an enterprising PRESENCE AND DOMINION almost wholly determined by evangelistic activity, dictating the terms to literally everybody they come in contact with.
To ME, "Thanksgiving" is not to be viewed as a celebration of how people can get along, but an observance of a historical FAILURE of that idea. Specifically, yet another example of how horribly that much vaunted and venerated "Christian" ideal of tolerance and love and respect for "others" got twisted 180 degrees around in order to obtain or otherwise maintain dominion.
We see it alive and well today, especially in the zealot crowd (and they ARE many), how easily they forsake the object of their professed veneration (eh, that guy who they think is THE son of God...as if nobody else was) which gives them the handle to condemn and threaten others...Because they're all about maintaining POWER and POLITICAL INFLUENCE, and that's all they care about.
The irony is that while atheists (generally) so sweetly inform them that moral integrity can be had without any supernatural agency, THEY don't give a shit. All THEY know is that they have something ultimately powerful up their sleeves, and they behave EXACTLY as if they were the agents of that "god" of theirs, whether we like it or not.
We're dealing with arseholes who think they ARE God. Do we at least understand that much or not?
Dogdammit, I always talk too much.
Posted by: Acronym Jim | November 28, 2009 2:06 PM
Yet my sigh of relief may very well spawn a tropical storm in the south seas. Hence,fear me, for I am on par with the mighty....butterfly.
Posted by: Geoffrey | November 28, 2009 2:15 PM
Personal decisions obviously still have to work inside of current laws.
Neither do I but a more effective method would be lobbying their local/state/federal representatives. Repeating the same statements endlessly and implying lack of morals if we don't agree on an internet blog just comes across as whiny. Vegebotting is no different than godbotting.
Posted by: Maggie Moo | November 28, 2009 8:52 PM
ummm, folks... especially Geoffrey and Rohit and any party to their continued debate:
Godwin's Law was properly invoked at 4:31pm, November 27th, a full 22 hours prior to your last post (Geoffrey re. "vegebotting") so you are in violation of continuing a thread that has been declared to be ended- note, not the argument (between frzz and David Estlund), but the thread.
While there is still some play in the theme: i.e. none have yet discussed the fallacy of "thanksgiving" as a casual religious inadequacy (the thanksgiving-praise-worship continuum where giving thanks is easy, requires no scarifice, and is often a throw-away phrase used by imagexians), one must find an alterate thread in which to continue comment.
(Please note that my statement is not intended to equate to being sherrif but rather along the lines of citizen's arrest!)
Posted by: Carlitos | November 29, 2009 9:47 AM
PZ, you should be grateful for every moment of your life, because each moment is unique and ineffable if you make the effort to pay attention to it, and someday you will most certainly die, whether decapitated, gouged, and eaten or merely weighted down by the burden of time on your shoulders, and only then will you perhaps have nothing to be thankful for, because you will be gone. There are beings in this universe that cannot be seen but CAN be felt, and among those multitudes that touch and surround us, there are some to whom your gratitude is the highest gift, who will bestow upon you their gifts in return.
Posted by: frzz | November 29, 2009 11:45 AM
"What reason? All I've seen from both sides are opinions. I've explained why I eat what I eat and telling me I'm not moral for doing so isn't an effective way of engaging me to change my mind."
Posts #224, #237, #242, #245, and #251 all contribute to what I consider to be a reasoned argument as to why animals should not be treated as "things".
My point is that there is a striking similarity to the way that our argument is being offhandedly dismissed because addressing it head on would force almost the entire world to rethink the way they live their life and the way in which other logical conclusions (atheism, etc.) make people rejigger their whole lives.
Till the next time animals being abused gts brought up... :)
Posted by: Copernicus | November 29, 2009 3:07 PM
@Carlitos #272, little Carlos...
"ineffable"? Are you sure you don't want to slip a tetragrammaton in there? There are many who are particularly good at expressing in words their lives from moment to moment, from Zāhir ud-Dīn Mohammad Bābur through Benvenuto Cellini and Charles Dickens, to the fictional Catcher in the Rye and Angela's Ashes...
but aren't you trying to say that that is exactly when one should be the most thankful, or is your attempt to describe peculiarly macabre death your main intent- a veiled threat perhaps, or a reflection of your own psyche?
Ah, so now I see it- you refer perhaps to the words of José Gabriel Funes, the priest who heads up the Vatican's Observatory, who argues that "we could think that in this universe there can be 100 sheep, equivalent to different kinds of creatures. We, belonging to human kind could be precisely the lost sheep, the sinners that need the shepherd. God became man in Jesus to save us. In that way, assuming that there would be other intelligent beings, we could not say that they need redemption. They could have remained in full friendship with the Creator."
I'm sure that if you proffer some evidence, it would be worth considering, but until then, mindful of course that you have attempted to evangelise with a wantonness reminiscent of an auto-da-fé, I would be careful that you are not condemned by your own words (Matthew 12:37) or indeed "hoisted by your own petard" (Hamlet 3:4)
Posted by: Carlitos | November 29, 2009 7:31 PM
Copernicus, my comments to you are 1, that although both are lovely, life in practice is nothing like literature, 2, I mention such a gruesome manner of death only because PZ characterizes the killings of Thanksgiving turkeys with those same words; ultimately humans are just like birds on a feedlot, all we can do is make the most of it. Our intelligence doesn't make us special, our life makes us special, and life we share with many, many other beings. 3, a bit of a tangent, Christ didn't believe in God, he believed in Man, and men killed him to shut him up. 2000 years later, we pit one kind of rationality (belief in God) against another (belief in what meets the eye); I say irrationality is the gateway to real knowledge, and ultimately, to freedom. 4, as far as hoisting myself by my own petard, or offering my own confessions in the guise of evangelism, or indeed lighting the stake along my back, I can't really argue with you there. My evidence is my own. Happy travels.
Posted by: Mike John | December 17, 2009 3:16 AM
my rgrds t y nd t y nc nml blg :)
Posted by: wisdalia
|
March 15, 2010 5:39 PM
busana muslim
I am grateful that I wasn't vaporized by a meteor falling out of the sky this year