Pharyngula

Posted by: Aquaria | November 29, 2009 5:20 PM

Wow.

Just wow.

That's all I can say.

Humanity scares me.

Posted by: Rox | November 29, 2009 5:28 PM

It should not surprise anyone that Uganda is a very Catholic country.

Let's hope that this does not become law.

Posted by: HalfMooner | November 29, 2009 5:30 PM

Despite my longterm admiration of PZ, I just couldn't believe this until I read the article. The bill is every bit as bad as the Nazi Nuremberg Laws. Anything this evil makes me smell a religious influence.

Posted by: me | November 29, 2009 5:36 PM

I can think of a few loud Americans who would find that a reasonable way to address the problem.

Posted by: Joshua | November 29, 2009 5:37 PM

What do you mean don't blame the Africans? What a ridiculous thing to say. The people pushing this bill are primitive, and they are African, just as muslim extremists are muslim and extreme.

Perhaps you didn't mean to say the Ugandan government members behind this travesty deserve no blame, but rather that it's not their Africaness that is to blame. If so, you should have said that.

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | November 29, 2009 5:37 PM

Apparently gays are being scapegoated, not an especially surprising development.

While it does get rather tedious, we're also fairly used to it happening to us.

Posted by: Keenacat | November 29, 2009 5:40 PM

I just read the comments on the BBC article. Made me more sick than ever.

I have to agree with Uganda, the country has a massive health problem and they are taking positive steps to deal with it.

Posted by: Keenacat | November 29, 2009 5:42 PM

...at #15 I wanted to say insane drivel.
Inane is a waaaay to weak word for this.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | November 29, 2009 5:45 PM

... and you will be completely unsurprised to discover that the sponsor of the bill is a member of The Family.

(/No. Really?)

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | November 29, 2009 5:51 PM

(/...and I am completely unsurprised to see the connection of the Family has already been nailed a few times in this very thread... but this is a good thing, at least.)

Posted by: Dale | November 29, 2009 5:52 PM

They'll have a great time with that, considering the epidemic is vastly a heterosexual one.

Why don't these fundamentalists just get right to the point: "We want to execute every gay human being" and be done with it?

Posted by: Alan Clark | November 29, 2009 5:56 PM

The Archbishops of York and Canterbury are being criticised for their refusal to speak out.

"The Archbishop of York, John Sentamu, has made it clear that he will make no comment on the Bill, but pressure is growing on the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, to make a statement."

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/10626

Arseholes.

Posted by: Cuttlefish, OM | November 29, 2009 5:57 PM

It may seem cruel; it may seem strange,
These cold, barbaric tactics.
But think of all the souls thus saved
From using prophylactics!

We could be wrong; perhaps we purge
And yet the virus stays--
At least we're doing something, right?
And what the hell, they're gays.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | November 29, 2009 5:59 PM

... added note re US influence and this notion of cutting aid, and this notion of 'primitives' being behind this:

... I'd heard part of what made Ugandans receptive to the notion in the first place was that the folk pushing this notion came from the US, whence also came vital foreign aid...

(/So sure, there were and are 'primitives' involved... But at least some of them live in North America, apparently.)

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | November 29, 2009 6:04 PM

Scott Lively, the author of Pink Swastika, places the blame of the pending law on American and European LGBT activists.

Posted by: Lynna | November 29, 2009 6:05 PM

What we're seeing is that more religiously-based organizations have joined forces to discriminate against and to harm gay citizens. See AJ Milne's comment @18.

In another thread, I noted that the Council of Catholic Bishops had given mormon apostle Ballard a Humanitarian Award recently. Ballard was one of the founders of the National Organization for Marriage, a prime mover behind the prop 8 campaign in California.

This past September, leaders from many christian sects met in New York and came up with a strongly-worded anti-gay, "Manhattan Declaration.

signatories "pledge to each other, and to our fellow believers, that no power on earth, be it cultural or political, will intimidate us into silence or acquiescence."
     The document — authored by evangelical Prison Fellowship founder Charles Colson ... National Organization for Marriage chairman, and Princeton professor Robert George ...; and Alabama's Beeson Divinity School dean Rev. Timothy George — is called "Manhattan Declaration: A Call of Christian Conscience." It's 4,700 words. It's signed by Maggie Gallagher

They are funneling money to Uganda, to New Jersey, to Iowa, etc. In Iowa, NOM funded the campaign of an anti-gay, Republican candidate. One Iowa (a civil rights group) is fightingt back. See the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWEJAEf09_E

Here's proof of the NOM funding in Iowa.

Posted by: HenryS | November 29, 2009 6:07 PM

Demographic data: Uganda Religion

Roman Catholic 41.9%, Anglican 35.9%, Pentecostal 4.6%, Seventh-day Adventist 1.5%, Muslim 12.1%, Other 3.1%, None 0.9% (2002 census)

84% of the population is christian...just another example of christian extremism.

Posted by: ERV | November 29, 2009 6:11 PM

There are ~940,000 people living with HIV-1 in Uganda.

~564,000 of these people are women.

~100,000 are children.

Leaving ~276,000 men.

Homosexual men are not the 'cause' of the HIV-1 epidemic in Uganda.

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | November 29, 2009 6:19 PM

What we're seeing is that more religiously-based organizations have joined forces to discriminate against and to harm gay citizens.

Beyond that, it's an attempt to deny citizenship to gay people. It was done throughout the core states of Europe and North America through the middle decades of the Twentieth Century. NAZI Germany going so far as to deny the right to life to gay men, in particular. However, even the US worked to create a citizenry that was fully heterosexual. More people were discharged from government employment in the US for homosexuality than for communism. It was illegal for homosexuals to enter the United States until 1990. That mid-century anti-gay kulturkampf in the cosmopolitan core signaled a shift from targeting specific acts and toward targeting identities and selves--types of people. The former colonial subjects have learned the lessons well.

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | November 29, 2009 6:23 PM

Scott LIvely should be known to Oregonians as the Communications Director of the OCA during the Ballot Measure 9 campaigns. Minnesotans might recognize him as the source of former Rep. Arlon Lindner's comments on the floor of the House that gay men were not targeted during the Holocaust. (Damn, Minnesotans should really miss Holocaust survivor Hinda Kibort, who put Lindner in his place at an ethics hearing. She was an amazing advocate for human rights in the state.)

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | November 29, 2009 6:25 PM

AJ, I lusted loved the last three paragraphs of the article you linked to.

Lively also told LifeSiteNews that to understand the opposition to homosexuality in Uganada it is necessary to recognize the importance of the June 3rd feast of the Ugnadan martyrs Saint Charles Lwanga and companions, which is still celebrated in the nation every year. The martyrs were killed in the 1800's in Uganda by then King Mwanga for interfering with the homosexual activities of the King. King Mwanga was a violent ruler and sexual abuser who forced himself on the young boys and men who served him as pages and attendants. The growing number of conversions among the King's pages infuriated the King since they would no longer participate in his immoral sexual acts. In all, 22 converts accepted death rather than renounce their Catholic faith.

This case it that of a king who abused his power. It is not the same as people demanding their rights. Completely different dynamics.

Posted by: AdamK | November 29, 2009 6:28 PM

But surely the Obama administration and the Clinton state department will take strong action to sanction these fools, like cutting of PEPFAR funds and other aid. Because Obama's such a fierce advocate for gay equality, right?

Oh, never mind.

Posted by: amphiox | November 29, 2009 6:30 PM

"how long does it take for natural selection to develop even a rudimentary ability to accept responsibility for one's own actions?"

There's no survival benefit in that, so long as there are oppressed minorities available to scapegoat. So my guess is never.

Posted by: F | November 29, 2009 6:31 PM

That is some seriously fucked-up shit right there.

It is the kind of thing that makes me consider, for at least a femtosecond, the idea that imprisoning or otherwise eliminating these types of jerks would not be a bad thing.

People involved in the family in the U.S. should, at the least, be exposed and investigated on grounds of national security. Rudely.

Posted by: Joel | November 29, 2009 6:36 PM

I can't believe this is even being considered in the 21st century. Gays have really become the new Jews. And the comments on the article are even more horrifying.

The so-called liberals in the West are always trying to impose their notions on Africa. Uganda has been the most successful African country in reducing AIDS, this awful disease that the West exported to Africa as part of their foreign aid packet.

I have to agree with Uganda, the country has a massive health problem and they are taking positive steps to deal with it.

Prepare for the inevitable influx of HIV infected asylum seekers to the UK. We can expect "our" government to be more concerned about the welfare of these Ugandans than that of the Britons.

I mean really, is there no end to the hatred?

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | November 29, 2009 6:37 PM

F, Rachel Maddow has had Jeff Sharlet as a regular guest on her show and regular reports on the C Street crowd.

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | November 29, 2009 6:40 PM

The second regular is missing a ly.

Posted by: Josh | November 29, 2009 6:43 PM

Words fail me*.

*Well, words that aren't fuck.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | November 29, 2009 6:47 PM

AIDS, this awful disease that the West exported to Africa as part of their foreign aid packet.

Posted by: Keenacat | November 29, 2009 6:50 PM

HalfMooner:

You know, it's not terrorism if it isn't muslim. You just have to prosecute and kill people in the name of the RIGHT gawd and U be safe.

Posted by: anonymous bloger | November 29, 2009 6:51 PM

anyone in the UK should sign this:
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ugandangays/

Posted by: WMDKitty | November 29, 2009 6:54 PM

I'm ashamed of my country.

Posted by: Josh | November 29, 2009 6:59 PM

My rock hammer! A bankrupt kingdom for my rock hammer! ...and for a plane ticket...

Fuck the hammer. Let me grab my M4.

Posted by: Janet Holmes | November 29, 2009 7:01 PM

The really interesting question is how long will it take for cultural evolution to get to the point where the use of prostitutes and/or refusal to use condoms becomes socially unacceptable? With AIDS killing a huge percentage of the population these changes must take place eventually, but of course the Catholics' lies about condoms don't help.

A social change from generally liberal views on sexuality (for men at least) to generally puritanical ones seems quite likely to occur in Africa over the next century - as it did in Europe in the nineteenth century for quite different reasons.

Or maybe just truck drivers as a class will become the new "untouchables"! Something must change though, one way or another, but persecuting gays won't solve anything. Probably make things worse if people believe they are safer with gays in gaol or executed.

Posted by: Lynna | November 29, 2009 7:12 PM

Then that last President of yours - what was his name? - started subjecting aid and health programmes to religious vetting which gave the various nutters a way in, so that now AIDS and sexuality more generally ceased to be a matter of health, education or personal liberty.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | November 29, 2009 7:13 PM

It is not the same as people demanding their rights. Completely different dynamics...

Yeah. And it's incredible, innit...

See, if we're for it, it's all about those corrupt, evil, powerful, scary monsters opposing it... 'Dem nasty, boy-raping kings... possibly from some other century entirely, but whatevs, babe... Poor, underdog us...

... and no doubt, they'll be saying that self-contratulatorily to themselves even should this progress to executions...

... I mean, sure, we may look to the casual observor like we're being inhuman, murdering bastards, here. But they forced poor, powerless us to these extremities of viciousness... It's all we could do, after all...

Yeah. Poor, powerless us... Honestly, I think it's the most annoying thing about the US right, and long, long has been: there is nothing so brutally fucking insane they can do that they won't insist it isn't justified by some fucked-up studiously self-righteous crazy somewhere... Beyond the sheer psychosis, there's this utter and complete certitude: it's all in sorrow, never in anger, see... We're good people... we just happen to do incredibly nasty things, honest...

I mean, I swear: these fuckers could slice your genitals open with a scalpel and insist to your face it was some fucking moral imperative they do so...

Oh... But wait... They did that too, already, didn't they...

(/'Kay... the absurd hyperbole unit is again on the fritz, outclassed yet again by the sheer insanity of mere reality... Guess I'll see what I can do about adjusting that, get back to y'all, at some point...)

Posted by: Katharine | November 29, 2009 7:17 PM

Joel, you forget gays were sent to concentration camps in the Holocaust too.

Posted by: raven | November 29, 2009 7:20 PM

Is this that sophisticated xian theology we keep hearing about? Where is Karen Armstrong or Joshua Willians to explain this subtle theological point.

unicef:

World-wide, 50 percent of all adults living with HIV/AIDS are female. ... the world's HIV/AIDS infections, 58 percent of HIV positive adults are women. .... The critical need for educators to understand gender and HIV/AIDS issues is a ...

As noted above in the thread, it doesn't even make the least amount of sense. HIV in Africa is a heterosexually transmitted disease. Over half of the new infections are in women.

If one was going to cull HIV+ to control the epidemic, the target population should be heterosexual males. Odd how they aren't the target in this bill.

Posted by: Knockgoats | November 29, 2009 7:29 PM

I just can't decide whether it's the evil or the stupidity of this that is worse. Everyone in the UK, sign the petition@62; tell your friends and colleagues to do the same.

I think it is possible to prevent this - enough outrage will force Museveni to block it (and in Uganda what Museveni says, goes).

Posted by: raven | November 29, 2009 7:41 PM

Lola:

So how does one stop the spread of a virulent, deadly disease?

With education, money, condoms, and modern medicine. The west did it. HIV+ rates are low and stable, not going up. The lifespan of HIV+ with HAART isn't known but can be in the multi-decades. Quite often, they die of something else.

In Africa, people with aids give birth to children with aids who do not survive past 5 years of age. If humans have been around for 100,000 years as H. sapiens, how long does it take for natural selection to develop even a rudimentary ability to accept responsibility for one's own actions?

This is dumb. The word's population is 6.7 billion. Only .5% are HIV+, 30 years after the epidemic started. The vast majority of the world's population is either lucky or cautious.

The Africans aren't the only ones who ignore the health warnings. The #1 killer in the USA is cardiovascular diseases. The risk factors are smoking, overweight, and underexercised. How many Americans fall into those categories? I seem to remember something somewhere about not casting stones while living in a glass house.

Odd factoid. About 1/500 people are immune to HIV/AIDS. In times past, the epidemic would have just worked its way through the populations in a few generations and that would be the end. 5% of the human genome is defective retroviruses, left over from titantic battles in the past.

Posted by: Lynna | November 29, 2009 7:44 PM

@47

From the CIA fact book. Uganda religions:
Roman Catholic 41.9%, Protestant 42% (Anglican 35.9%, Pentecostal 4.6%, Seventh Day Adventist 1.5%), Muslim 12.1%, other 3.1%, none 0.9% (2002 census)

Posted by: Copernicus | November 29, 2009 7:51 PM

@Cuttle #25

It may seem cruel; it may seem strange, / These cold, barbaric tactics. / But think of all the souls thus saved / From using prophylactics! / We could be wrong; perhaps we purge / And yet the virus stays-- / At least we're doing something, right? / And what the hell, they're gays.

But Cuttle, though your satire’s clear
There is another way,
With Catholics 41 percent:
Reverse auto-da-fé!

Posted by: darvolution proponentsist | November 29, 2009 8:06 PM

This is one of those rare days when I wish I'd taken the blue pill instead.

Shame on humanity.

Posted by: Lynna | November 29, 2009 8:23 PM

In the NPR interview that AJ Milne linked to in comment #18, some of The Family's tactics, such as remaining behind the scenes, working with men in power no matter what their religion (as long as they were religious), and setting long term goals for moving leaders further to the right on social issues, were revealed. The Family actively works against transparency. They do not want you to know what your elected officials are doing. They do not want you to know what your religious leaders are doing. Hidden agendas and convoluted money trails make it difficult to fight The Family's tactics.

These are the same tactics that the mormons are now using in their anti-gay campaigns. They learned a few things in California.

The National Organization for Marriage maintains that it did not break the law because it solicited donations to fight same-sex marriage in general, not the Maine statute in particular. James Bopp Jr., a lawyer for the group, said Thursday that it was not subject to Maine’s reporting law because it had contributed the $1.6 million to Stand for Marriage Maine, which has reported its donors to the state.

In response, the National Organization for Marriage sued the state last week [late October, 2009] in Federal District Court in Bangor, Me., on the ground that Maine’s financial reporting requirements violate the First Amendment and are therefore unconstitutional. Maine law requires any individual or group that raises or spends more than $5,000 to influence a ballot question vote to disclose donors who gave more than $100 for that purpose.

In the story about The Family, the investigative reporter made the point strongly that he got the story of the Uganda connection by following the money trail, with the help of several other investigators. Our democracy in the U.S. (and now, apparently, the welfare of people in Uganda) depends on transparency. Follow the money.

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | November 29, 2009 8:34 PM

Some day, perhaps, I will stop finding new ways and reasons to loathe humanity, but not yet.

Those are the times I need to listen to Miles Davis or Nina Simone or Gustav Mahler or Erasure or ABBA. I need to feel beauty or joy. Or I call a friend and laugh. Recalls Prior Walter's monologue in the Heaven scene from Angels in America. I'll not post the full scene. It can be seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4YmNpVCMw4

Instead, I just want to post Prior's monologue. It resonates for me so deeply. There was a time when i was convinced my HIV test would come back positive (it didn't) and I revisited this work, preparing for an illness I was sure I'd have, revisiting the politics of my coming of age, lots of things. I also made the mistake, about a year later, of watching all six hours of the HBO project of Angels in one sitting. Too much. It's a stunning work, still relevant and quintessentially American. Kushner is a fucking genius.

Prior [to the angels]: But still. Still
Bless me anyway.
I want more life. I can't help myself. I do.
I've lived through such terrible times, and there are people who live through much much worse, but...You see them living anyway.
When they're more spirit than body, more sores than skin, when they're burned and in agony, when flies lay eggs in the corners of the eyes of their children, they live. Death usually has to take life away. I don't know if that's just the animal. I don't know if it's not braver to die. But I recognize the habit. The addiction to being alive. We live past hope. If I can find hope anywhere that's it, that's the best I can do. It's so much not enough, so inadequate but...Bless me anyway. I want more life.

(Prior begins to exit. The Angels, unseen by him, make a mystical sign. He turns to face them.)

Prior: And if He returns, take Him to court. He walked out on us. He ought to pay.

"It's so much not enough, so inadequate...."

I feel that way so often.

Posted by: Katharine | November 29, 2009 8:41 PM

It should be noted that the United States also didn't even really help out the Jews by fighting until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.

My country sucks bad. Some of the people in it are nice, but it sucks.

Posted by: Katharine | November 29, 2009 8:43 PM

I seem to remember that asshat Mabus saying something in response to my question to him about whether he wanted to see a genocide of atheists and he said something to the effect of that's pretty much what he and his ilk wanted.

Posted by: wrpd | November 29, 2009 8:56 PM

Based purely on my own observations, and not on any scientific evidence, I think that HIV has been a part of the cosmopolitan gay communities from at least the early 70s. I had friends who were always sick and then died very young. AIDS would have gone unnoticed for a few years longer in the 80s if it weren't for the the few people who started putting the clues together.
My first boyfriend, who slept with the same men I did, found out in the mid 80s that he had had HIV since the mid 70s. I am still HIV negative. I stopped having multiple partners in the early 80s.
I don't think the proposed laws in Uganda are serious attempts to control the spread of HIV. I think that killing people with HIV is just an excuse to get rid of more gay men.
I once heard a televangelist say that all gay people should be moved to Massachusetts and then a fence should be built to keep them in. He said that that would end the gay problem in America very quickly. You may be able to punish gay behavior but you cannot stop people from being gay.

Posted by: foxfire | November 29, 2009 9:31 PM

@ FlameDuck # 77

Because for some reason, despite having intelligently designed gay people, god somehow just can't seem to get around to smiting them himself. So he needs your help. And your money.

And your capability to reason. Of course, it will be counter-claimed that homosexuality is a matter of choice not design, completely ignoring the FACT that avoidance of the "sin" on the part of heterosexual individuals may be more due to a lack of interest than any kind of restraint made possible through determined application of "free will".

What would be truly ironic is IF:
1) Scientific evidence indicated the cause of sexual preference was developmental in nature, rather than directly genetic. By that statement I mean to include environmental conditions that cause any regulatory genes to muck with sexual preference, to be placed in the "developmental" category.
2) Science leads to a simple, cheap procedure that could determine the most likely future sexual preference of a human embryo in say, week 7 after a sperm cell has fertilized an egg cell. When it is still an embryo and has not yet transitioned to a fetus. The potential preference could be confirmed by another simple, cheap test before the end of the first trimester of pregnancy.

My bet is: it would not take too much time (much less than apologizing about the Galileo thing) before the Pope(the dude with the blood-colored shoes) issued a dispensation that clears up the confusion between science and religion on when a bay-bee has come to exist, said bay-bee possessing a soul.

Another bet would be that Republican members of the U.S. Senate and House would be outraged (OUTRAGED, I say to you) that women are denied "appropriate" prenatal tests and medical procedures (including drugs and abortion alternatives) during the first trimester of pregnancy.

Being an atheist and lacking any deity-provided guidance about right/wrong, I am stuck with the notions provided by nature and cultural traditions modified by logic, reason and evidence. How sad for me. It would be just *so* much easier to be able to fall back on the delightfully fluid morality that superstition provides.

P.S. With all the good that religion performs in Africa, in pointing out the evils of birth control and silently evaluating the execution of witches by fire, I expect religion will someday have something to say about this little issue. Thanks religion, for helping people in Africa, birthplace of Humanity, to reach their full potential.

Posted by: plumberbob | November 29, 2009 9:33 PM

Email your congresscritters, and order them, as your employees, to take note of this, and to raise a stink, and summarily have Ugandan aid cease.

Posted by: JD | November 29, 2009 9:55 PM

I wonder if dealing with toxic religion shouldn't be considered in evolutionary/meme terms. If religions are endemic in a population, you could support the spread of the least harmful forms, as a general step in the right direction. The major problem with that is that the more reality based a religion is the less virulent it becomes. Whats needed is something like the charismatics without their conservative baggage. Religious dogma is actually rather flexible given the right conditions, it has to be after all since it gets recycled with each generation of church leaders.

Posted by: Lynna | November 29, 2009 10:41 PM

The ubiquitous lawyer, James Bopp, Jr., (former advisor to Mitt Romney, defender of marriage against gays, and author of the proposed purity test for republican candidates) is active in the anti-abortion campaign as well. Don't tell me you're surprised.

The Republican National Committee will no longer offer employees an insurance plan that covers abortion after POLITICO reported Thursday that the anti-abortion RNC's policy has covered the procedure since 1991.
     "Money from our loyal donors should not be used for this purpose," Chairman Michael Steele said in a statement. "I don't know why this policy existed in the past, but it will not exist under my administration. Consider this issue settled." ...“We were not aware of this, obviously, and this will, of course, be fixed,” said James Bopp Jr., a Republican National Committeeman from Indiana.

Posted by: Tina St. Sebastian | November 29, 2009 11:39 PM

plumberbob @ #100

I doubt cutting off aid would accomplish anything, other than starving the starving even further.

Besides, a born-again xtian can always spin it. If aid continues, God (through the west) is rewarding them for being faithful. If sanctions are threatened, Satan (through the west) is tempting them from the path of righteousness. If sanctions are actually imposed, God (through the west) is testing them, but don't worry - the sooner you die, the sooner you get to go to heaven!

You can't win.

Posted by: Matthew Bailey | November 29, 2009 11:55 PM

Well, even though I think it is horrid, I have long hypothesized that something of this sort ACTUALLY HAPPENING will be the only thing that forces a paradigm shift.

It was really not until after WWII that antisemitism was really opening and solidly confronted.

It will, unfortunately, probably take some country, acting on the basis of "Sound Christian Thinking" to make people realize that this "Sound Christian Thinking" is more akin to the thinking of Fascists and Monsters.

Posted by: Lynn David | November 30, 2009 1:52 AM

I should also point out that both Exodus and Fieldstead are a part of the Arlington Group and "The Cedars" in Arlington is the home of the Family.
...

Posted by: Colin Meier | November 30, 2009 2:24 AM

PZ, thanks very much for posting this.

Keenacat, which BBC article are you referring to? I can't find one...

Posted by: raven | November 30, 2009 3:21 AM

What kind of person do you have to be to think it's okay to imprison people for their sexuality, to imprison their friends for not reporting it, to execute people for being sick?

How can these people think they have the moral high ground?

OK, I'll give it a try. The Fundie xian Death Cults worship a god that looks a lot like satan.

Inept, genocidal monster...check.
Massive amounts of hate...check.
Lie continuously about everything...check.
Practice human child sacrifice by faith healing...check.
Kill a lot for no particular reason when they can get away with it like now...check.

If there is a difference between satan worshippers and fundie death cultists, I just can't see it.

As noted in the thread above many times, this has nothing to do with HIV/AIDS. HIV in Africa is a heterosexual disease and half the HIV+ and over half the new infections are in females. It is simply a not very plausible excuse to genocide a group of people, the gays.

Xian morality is a myth.

Posted by: Rorschach | November 30, 2009 3:40 AM

In fact the term Nazi is an acronym in English for Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei

LOL
You might want to check on that.
It's just an abbreviation of Nationalsozialist.

The acronym you want is NSDAP.

Posted by: Jockaira | November 30, 2009 3:50 AM

I thought I was the only grammar nazi here!

Posted by: Rorschach | November 30, 2009 4:37 AM

In practise, Africa is like Europe at the beginning of the 2012th Century.

Fixed.
Actually, Africa is not like Europe at any time at all, because Africans have adopted technologies and religions and morals that are not their own, and that they didnt invent or come up with.

Posted by: Colin Meier | November 30, 2009 5:22 AM

JD

If religions are endemic in a population, you could support the spread of the least harmful forms, as a general step in the right direction.

This might seem like a good idea, but -- even assuming a complete displacement of the harmful species -- there will always be fertile soil in the garden of human nature (a niche) for those "good" species to be twisted to "bad" (in part because excuses for acting like a dick spread quickly and have better traction than, say, ethics).

Posted by: Aratina Cage | November 30, 2009 5:51 AM

Rorschach,

Sounds like Uganda would have been a better place to invade then Iraq.

I'm not really surprised that the Christians who try to pin the entire Holocaust on gays would be the ones to emulate the Nazis, I am surprised at how far they got in making their own version of the Holocaust a reality.

Posted by: FlameDuck | November 30, 2009 6:19 AM

Well the same guy is involved in a "purity test" the Republlicans are considering:

I think that's a fantastic idea! Nothing will kill of the influence of Republicans as quickly a list of 10 commandments, not a single one of them can live up to. The republicans will be completely marginalized by 2012. I say go for it! Give Democrats an unprecedented close to 100% majority in both the house and the senate perpetually!

Note that Schmierer agrees with Lively that "the Nazis were all gay."

The Nazis where also all Catholics. Thus all Catholics are gay. Pretend logic is easy.

How can these people think they have the moral high ground?

Because they aren't right in the head. It's the same as all the pro-lifers being in favour of the death penalty. For some reason they simply don't see abortion as pre-emptive death penalty, since all kids raised without (thier) "Family Values(tm)" are obviously destined to become the next Hitlers and Pol Pots.

Practice human child sacrifice by faith healing...check.

Or outright as a virtue. After all Abraham was encouraged by God to lie and murder his child to Test His Faith(tm). Here is the kicker. If your god is omnipotent, as you claim, he would (much like Santa Claus) *know* if you have faith or not, and thus wouldn't need to test you! I find it hilarious (except for the bit were these people have the power to influence policy) that these people, who are absolutely certain in the truth of the bible and the infallibility of their god, perceive him as a complete neurotic with what can charitably called several severe personality disorders, and still come to the conclusion that this deity is a force for good.

Posted by: Richard Eis | November 30, 2009 8:20 AM

So the family are against human rights. In contravention to everything they are supposed to stand for, and that their american laws stand for.

No surprise there. When this phase of religion has finished we will soon be using argumentum ad christus. Hitler having become passe. (You may need to fix my poor latin)

It is a shame that nothing short of violence is going to stop these people.

Posted by: Katharine | November 30, 2009 8:31 AM

Rorschach, as said above, the US was all 'OH LET'S FREE THE JEWS' in the 1940s, but they didn't care about gay people.

In fact, there are some Jews who think only the 6 million Jews killed count as victims and forget the 5 million other people killed.

All sides had their amount of dumb crap; the Nazis just had a lot more than the others.

Posted by: Joel | November 30, 2009 11:15 AM

@Knockgoats:

I think Rorschach's point is that the Europeans had a chance to modify their culture organically towards a more rational society (not that it was particularly easy there), while Africa has had modern society laid on top of their existing societies and is still feeling all of the disruption inherent to that. If you take the American or French revolutions as the start of our modern society (not unreasonable) we've had about 200 years to settle in -- about 10 generations. The African nations have had autonomy for only 2-3 generations. It's gonna take a bit to build stable rational societies.

Posted by: Outraged | November 30, 2009 12:11 PM

You can EMail the piece of shit Ugandan who proposed this awful law directly here:

dbahati@parliament.go.ug

His name is David Bahati.

Let the rage begin! Let's see if we can take down the Uganda government servers!

Posted by: Outraged | November 30, 2009 12:15 PM

Another suggestion for those of you with a few extra bucks to spend...

Here is the full contact information for David Bahati.

I recommend sending him subscriptions to gay magazines (Instinct, OUT, etc). Gay birthday cards. Get creative folks!

[contact information removed. No, we are not going to encourage harassment campaigns against even individuals like that.

By the way, right-wingers have been signing me up for subscriptions to gay magazines for years. They really aren't offensive at all. -- pzm]

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 30, 2009 12:43 PM

5% of the human genome is defective retroviruses, left over from titantic battles in the past.

Over 50 % is.

You carry 34,000 retroviral pseudogenes around.

I seem to remember that asshat Mabus saying something in response to my question to him about whether he wanted to see a genocide of atheists and he said something to the effect of that's pretty much what he and his ilk wanted.

He and what ilk?

It's just an abbreviation of Nationalsozialist.

Or rather of Nationalsozialist – this works in German pronunciation…

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | November 30, 2009 2:28 PM

This is sad on any number of fronts.

Uganda's success in reducing HIV/AIDS was of course not due to any conservative 'focus on the family'-type bullshit (like most Americans could even comprehend the dependence on the family structure common in East Africa) but good ol' fashioned liberal public health and education.

Further, having briefly lived in Kampala in 1999 when a same-sex marriage was being performed in secret with a non-insubstantial amount of support, I'm dismayed to see the flames of homophobia I saw then being fanned into a full-fledged conflagration.

Posted by: Lynna | November 30, 2009 7:02 PM

Here's more information related to American evangelicals exporting homophobia. Excerpt:

For his 16-month investigation, Kaoma, an Anglican priest from Zambia, traveled in the United States and Uganda, Kenya, and Nigeria, attended the notorious antigay conference of Uganda’s Family Life Network in March, and documented concerns among the region’s clergy that U.S. conservatives are contributing to corruption among bishops with their lax requirements for donated funds.

Posted by: Lynna | November 30, 2009 7:21 PM

Here's a link to a collection of videos that record the anti-gay campaign in Uganda.

"Whenever you hear the words 'sexual orientation' you know the homosexuals are behind it."

"Most of the people…they say gays are born that way and it has been…proven…That is a lie. That’s what’s called a lie. It is not true. There is no definitive scientific study that has ever proved that homosexuality is innate"
     "If homosexuality is not caused by genetic factors…then that means it can be acquired... And if it can be acquired, shouldn’t we be doing everything in our power to protect people from acquiring it? Shouldn’t we lean to the side of protecting the children instead of affirming a scientific hypothesis that has no actual truthful foundation?"
     "If someone is identifying themselves based on their orientation toward a person of the same gender, then that seems to me to be a self-evident disorder."
     "If you catch them at 12 years old, which they are working very aggressively to do and you tell those children that if you have an attraction towards someone of the same gender, that means you’re gay and because you’re gay you need to come with us."
     "There’s a whole network of people ready to simply inculcate you and enfold you into their world and they want more and more people in their world because they are in a campaign to change everything"
     "[homosexuality and pedophilia] They are equated. They are equated because the very same arguments you can make for homosexuality you can apply to pedophilia in many ways, not in every way but in many ways…clearly it’s not the way it ought to be. It’s wrong and it should be discouraged."
     "Even though probably the majority of homosexuals are not oriented towards young people, there is a significant number that are, especially the men…male homosexuality has historically been not adult to adult it has been adult to teenager"
     "The gay movement is an evil institution that’s goal is to defeat the marriage-based society and replace it with a culture of sexual promiscuity in which there’s no restrictions on sexual conduct except the principle of mutual choice."

Posted by: Lynna | November 30, 2009 7:52 PM

In the "I wish I were surprised, but..." category: Scott Lively is thoroughly connected to the Sutherland Institute and it's cabal of whacko mormons.
From the World Congress of Families Newsletter, April, 2008, we learn the lovely and inspiring news that "Pro-Family Leaders Rally to Romania's Defense of Marriage", Don Feder speaks on "Demographic Winter" at Harvard, and special thanks are given to Scott Lively of Watchmen On The Walls for his help in Romania (bottom of page 2 of the PDF file of the newsletter)

Scott Lively, Paul Mero, Don Feder and other homophobes show up over and over at any World Congress of Families events.

Lively is an attorney and he has been involved in filing "reverse discrimination" cases:

The attorneys in the case, working pro-bono and with the support of the Pro-Family Law Center and Abiding Truth Ministries -- a "biblical marriage" outfit that fights gay marriage via funding cases such as this, and through training fellow culture warriors for the good fight, and which, incidentally, is headed up by Lively -- describe their own record like this:
"The firm's public interest and constitutional law efforts are nationwide and retention of these cases are based on the foreseeable and unique cultural impact of each case. We have aggressively defended the Pledge of Allegiance, the First Amendment, traditional marriage, border security, patient rights, health care provider rights, and other important causes affecting the future of California and our nation."

Posted by: Lynna | November 30, 2009 8:04 PM

Here's a short bio for Allan C. Carlson, the guy who founded the whole World Congress of Families bit, with it's anti-gay touring group. He also co-authored a book with Paul Mero. For the Sutherland Institute, Carlson is Director of The Center For Community and Economy.

Dr. Carlson inagurated the World Congress of families in 1997. The founder of the Howard Center for Family, Religion & Society, he has served as a distinguished fellow at the Family Research Council. The author of nine books, he has written for the Wall Street Journal, Touchstone, and Intercollegiate Review, and is the editor of The Family in America.

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | November 30, 2009 8:56 PM

So, is this "demographic winter" stuff a rehashing of "Hey! White bitches! Get out of the paid workforce and have more babies!" nonsense that's been going on for over a century?

Posted by: Lynna | November 30, 2009 9:21 PM

After reading the PR for Demographic Winter (sample above @151), you will note that writing is not one the skills the über-right has mastered.

I'd like to read a review from a Romanian, but alas, I no speaka da language.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | November 30, 2009 9:28 PM

Demographic Winter? I hadn't heard of it, so I did a quick search. What a load of venomous bullshit. Came across http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/jan/09012611.html

the demographic problem of worldwide declining birthrates "could result in the greatest crisis humanity will confront in this century" as "all over the world, children are disappearing."

People seem to be happily breeding in my corner of ND.

Beyond an inability to pay for pensions, it is likely that euthanasia will be one looked-to solution to the aging crisis, he said. "Demographic Winter is the terminal stage in the suicide of the West - the culmination of a century of evil ideas and poisonous policies,'" he said. Among them he listed: "Abortion - As I mentioned a moment ago, worldwide, we're killing 42 million people a year. It's as if an invading army killed every man woman and child in Italy - then repeated the process every year. "Contraception - For the first time in history, just under half the world's population of childbearing age uses some form of birth control. Some of us remember when births weren't controlled and pregnancies weren't planned. With all the wailing about man-made Global Warming, carbon footprints and the ozone layer, wouldn't it be ironic if what did us in wasn't the SUV but the IUD? "Delayed marriage. People are marrying later and later. After 35, it becomes progressively harder for a woman to have children.

This is the exact type of person who thinks I should never have been allowed to marry in the first place because I never had any intention to breed and didn't. I've often been told that the privilege of marriage isn't meant for "people" like me. (People being said in that tone which provides the subtext of subhuman. Of course, I'm female too, which makes it much, much worse.)

It's a culture that can look at Sarah Palin and her beautiful family and ask why she had to have 5 children and why she didn't abort her child with Downs syndrome."

Oh FFS. In a nutshell, shut up and breed for stupidity! It's a good thing!

Posted by: Lynna | November 30, 2009 9:52 PM

With all the breeding and babies going on, you can see why some of the most conservative mormons have joined forces with The Family and with other evangelicals. With the mormon church losing members at an alarming rate, you can see why the Demographic Winter idea would hit them hard, and why they feel a need to increase their power/money base with "The Natural Family".

Here are few more telling details about The Family from author Jeff Sharlet:

Doug Coe, they say — most people refer to him by his first and last name — is closer to Jesus than perhaps any other man alive, and thus privy to information the rest of us are too spiritually "immature" to understand. For instance, the necessity of secrecy. Doug Coe says it allows the scoundrels and the despots to turn their talents toward the service of Jesus — who, Doug Coe says, prefers power to piety — by shielding their work on His behalf from a hardhearted public, unwilling to believe in their good intentions. In a sermon posted online by a fundamentalist website, Coe compares this method to the mob's. "His Body" — the Body of Christ, that is, by which he means Christendom — "functions invisibly like the mafia. ... They keep their organization invisible. Everything visible is transitory. Everything invisible is permanent and lasts forever. The more you can make your organization invisible, the more influence it will have."
     For that very reason, the Family has operated under many guises, some active, some defunct: National Committee for Christian Leadership, International Christian Leadership, National Leadership Council, the Fellowship Foundation, the International Foundation. The Fellowship Foundation alone has an annual budget of nearly $14 million. The bulk of it, $12 million, goes to "mentoring, counseling, and partnering with friends around the world," but that represents only a fraction of the network's finances.

Dennis Bakke, former CEO of AES, the largest independent power producer in the world, and a Family insider, took the occasion of the 1997 Prayer Breakfast to invite Ugandan president Yoweri Museveni, the Family's “key man” in Africa, to a private dinner at a mansion, just up the block from the Family's Arlington headquarters. Bakke, the author of a popular business book titled Joy at Work, has long preached an ethic of social responsibility inspired by his evangelical faith and his free-market convictions: "I am trying to sell a way of life," he has said. "I am a cultural imperialist." That's a phrase he uses to be provocative; he believes that his Jesus is so universal that everyone wants Him. And, apparently, His business opportunities: Bakke was one of the pioneer thinkers of energy deregulation, the laissez-faire fever dream that culminated in the meltdown of Enron. But there was other, less-noticed fallout, such as a no-bid deal Bakke made with Museveni, the result of a relationship that began at the 1997 Prayer Breakfast, for a $500-million dam close to the source of the White N—e -- in waters considered sacred by Uganda's 2.5-million–strong Busoga minority. AES announced that the Busoga had agreed to "relocate" the spirits of their dead. They weren't the only ones opposed; first environmentalists (Museveni had one American arrested and deported) and then even other foreign investors revolted against a project that seemed like it might actually increase the price of power for the poor. Bakke didn't worry. "We don’t go away," he declared. He dispatched a young man named Christian Wright, the son of one of the Prayer Breakfast's organizers, to be AES's in- country liaison to Museveni; Wright was later accused of authorizing at least $400,000 in bribes. He claimed his signature had been forged.

Posted by: not a gator | December 1, 2009 3:53 AM

Late to the party, I know, I know, but I did write a letter to the editor of my local paper using the data ERV provided.

this awful disease that the West exported to Africa as part of their foreign aid packet.

HIV comes from the West???

Posted by: Knockgoats | December 1, 2009 5:48 AM

On World AIDS Day, let's note the (comparatively) good news: both new HIV infections, and AIDS deaths, are falling - primarily die to the new antivirals, developed by the power of prayer medical science. The worst news is that most infected people in poor countries are still not getting these drugs - or often, any treatment at all - because too much has been left to the profit motive. Still, even there, thanks to sustained campaigning, things are improving. Even in the rich world, of course, many are still dying of AIDS: the drugs do work, but they are not completely effective and do have side effects; and many more still suffer discrimination. However, an HIV+ friend of mine, who was expecting to die in the near future when we first met in the early 90s, now probably has a greater life expectancy than I do (he's 18 years younger). Finding out you're not likely to die soon when you thought you were generates its own problems, but anyway, yay for medical science and political activism!

Posted by: Lynna | December 1, 2009 11:15 AM

The Baptists at the infamous Exodus organization have issued a response to the proposed anti-gay law: Excerpt below:

ORLANDO, Fla. (BP)--Exodus International has sent a letter to Uganda's president, expressing concern over legislation that would prosecute homosexual behavior and would require pastors, missionaries, health care providers and counselors to report people suspected of such behavior.
     The Christian ministry that seeks to assist homosexuals in overcoming unwanted same-sex attractions said in the letter that it believes homosexuality is not what God intended for individuals, but the proposed legislation is not the solution.
     "If homosexual behavior and knowledge of such behavior is criminalized and prosecuted, as proposed in this bill, church and ministry leaders will be unable to assist hurting men, women and youth who might otherwise seek help in addressing this personal issue," the letter, dated Nov. 16, said.

Posted by: raven | December 1, 2009 11:43 AM

As an African reading how 'honourable' US lawmakers like James Inhofe and those crackpots 'The Family' are a major influence (to put it mildly) on this proposed law makes it even worse.

The Family Christofascists are just cultural imperialists. Exporting the US xian cultist culture of hate, bigotry, violence, and death.

Just say no.

They want to round up gay Ugandans and kill them. But that is just targt practice. Their real goal is the USA. They just have a longer road ahead of them here.

Posted by: Lynna | December 1, 2009 1:56 PM

Not really, I'm still just fantasizing ... and besides, something as toxic as Inhofe couldn't be good for the lions.

As far as just saying no, as Raven suggests, that strategy sounds good until you read about the bribes that The Family is handing out in Uganda (see comment #156). The fight against The Family needs to be funded, and they need to be outed in the Ugandan press for what they are (and are not).

The fundie death cults are posing in Uganda as legitimate representatives of U.S. government (there on U.S. government business), and as legitimate representatives of mainstream religion in the U.S.A. They are neither.

Someone should translate Sharlet's book and send it to Uganda.

The Family is not the only anti-gay, anti-women organization exporting toxic ideas and passing out money in Uganda. If I had time, I'd make a relationship tree that accounted for all the beetle-headed halfwits who think they can get away with this in Uganda, in Romania, etc. Unfortunately, I have to make a living and pay the monthly bills before I can help to right the wrongs.

Posted by: Lynna | December 1, 2009 2:15 PM

Rachel Maddow adds some interesting details to this story.

One prominent Ugandan supporter is Pastor Martin Ssempa. Mr. Ssempa is an associate of American evangelical Pastor Rick Warren and a frequent guest at his Saddleback Church; yes, the same Rick Warren who delivered the invocation at President Obama's inauguration and the same Rick Warren who currently refuses to publicly condemn this legislation despite obvious efforts to distance himself from Pastor Ssempa.
     But Evangelical American pastors are not the only ones in this country with ties to the bill. Author Jeff Sharlet told Rachel that both the president of Uganda and the legislator who introduced the bill are core members of the now infamous secretive religious group The Family.

Posted by: Lynna | December 1, 2009 2:22 PM

Uganda relects on World AIDS Day Excerpt below:

...there has been a noted increase in AIDS prevalence in recent years due in part to the government’s shift towards abstinence-based prevention programmes and a general complacency towards the disease (which is now more easily treatable due to the proliferation of antiretroviral drugs).