One of our own, the godless Minnesotan Stephanie Zvan, is going under the knife for removal of some cancerous tissue today. If you're a useless fool, you might think entreating an imaginary and fickle deity would be the appropriate thing to do, but no…we know that is futile and insulting. However, one thing that isn't pointless is to leave a few messages as members of a community of caring human beings that we're looking forward to her return. So go do something social and personal and life-affirming, ok?
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« MoJo got me | Main | Deep Rift in Chicago »
NO PRAYERS!
Posted on: November 3, 2009 11:32 AM, by PZ Myers
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Comments
Posted by: octopod | November 3, 2009 11:43 AM
May you have an excellent medical team and a rapid recovery!
On a highly related note: have you lot seen this nonsense? http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/11/and-healthcare-reform-disaster.html Apparently the healthcare bill has been modified to include a proviso that lets Christian Science "prayer-treatments" be treated as real medical care -- which, of course, also opens the door to literally any kind of health-related woo being federally funded, on grounds of freedom of religion...
Posted by: Hank Fox
|
November 3, 2009 11:48 AM
Another useful thing: Fight for medical research funding, good science in every area of life, and health insurance reform.
Posted by: Dirty Hairy | November 3, 2009 11:55 AM
Um...get better soon?
*resists urge to pray to Kahless, and sacrifice a Romulan*
Posted by: Brownian, OM
|
November 3, 2009 11:55 AM
All the best, Stephanie! Cancer's tough, but you're tougher.
Posted by: lordshipmayhem
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November 3, 2009 11:57 AM
You are in my thoughts today, Stephanie. May your recovery be rapid and this cancer be defeated.
I absolutely detest cancer. It has taken too many family and friends, too painfully. May it be vanquished forever soon.
Posted by: Newfie
|
November 3, 2009 11:57 AM
Kick Cancer's Arse, Stephanie!
Posted by: Orac
|
November 3, 2009 11:57 AM
Old news. I've been sounding the alarm on this for a while now:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/10/its_more_than_just_harkin_and_woo_christ.php
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/10/fight_the_intrusion_of_quackery_and_reli.php
I'm depressed at how little the warnings of myself and a few others are being heeded.
Posted by: RamblinDude
|
November 3, 2009 12:00 PM
How refreshing! You don’t know how tedious it is (well, okay, maybe you do) to be surrounded by people who ask for your prayers for every goddamned little thing. It’s a game Christians play, where they pretend that an invisible man will grant favors if enough people really, truly believe it and wish hard enough. Gets on a sane person’s nerves after awhile.
All the best, Stephanie!
Posted by: Carlie | November 3, 2009 12:03 PM
I only lurk occasionally at Quiche and Diamonds so I would feel like an interloper commenting there, but here I'll wish you all the best, Stephanie. I hope you find all the emotional reserves you need - I know with the friends you have they'll keep you well supplied with support.
Posted by: foxfire | November 3, 2009 12:04 PM
Best wishes to you Stephanie. May your surgeons be skillful, the nursing staff knowledgeable and kind, and your recovery swift and without complications.
I experienced the "carcinoma in situ" diagnosis many years ago when I was in my mid-twenties. I know what it is like to have a physician tell you that if you want a child you better have one now (and to make the decision not to, being single, just starting a career and not having yet found the person with whom one wanted to share a life).
The wonderful thing is I also know what it is like to have grandchildren; not direct descendants yet close enough biologically (from a mitochondrial Eve perspective) and they call me "grandma"....
Posted by: Ms. Crazy Pants | November 3, 2009 12:05 PM
Get better soon!!
This makes me wonder. By telling someone to get better, are we invoking some sort of woo? Does demanding a person get better make them get better?
Posted by: Insightful Ape
|
November 3, 2009 12:08 PM
Oh, feel so sorry.
Hope she will have a quick recovery.
PZ can we send you our "get well soon" cards
for transmittal to her?
Posted by: Hank Fox
|
November 3, 2009 12:15 PM
Crazy Pants #11: By telling someone to get better, are we invoking some sort of woo?
Probably not. It's more of a growing-closer gesture. "I care about you and want you to be well and happy." Nothing woo in that.
Posted by: Corey | November 3, 2009 12:17 PM
Check this story out: An Italian mother wanted to give her children a secular education and got the crucifixes removed from their school. It's about time, seeing as Catholicism ceased to be the state religion in 1984.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8340411.stm
Posted by: Ms. Crazy Pants | November 3, 2009 12:18 PM
Well, bummer. I was looking forward to the idea of demanding people well. :-)
Posted by: Insightful Ape
|
November 3, 2009 12:28 PM
Oh, feel so sorry.
Hope she will have a quick recovery.
PZ can we send you our "get well soon" cards
for transmittal to her?
Posted by: Stephanie Z | November 3, 2009 12:28 PM
Thanks, everyone. I'm home and enjoying the Vicodin and being able to finally eat breakfast.
Hank, exactly.
Carlie, you're never an interloper.
And now for video games.
Posted by: Glen Davidson
|
November 3, 2009 12:29 PM
We'll see what your faith in materialism will do for you, Stephanie.
Plenty, I'll bet, although I wouldn't actually call it faith. Gee, I bet even believers might turn materialist in such an event, while piously denying it where their pocketbooks and lives aren't at stake, but their social life is.
Best to you, Stephanie.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: Joshua Blanchard | November 3, 2009 12:35 PM
Very few religious communities accept the false dichotomy of medical treatment vs. prayer.
In any case, the worst case scenario is that by praying, a person just keeps in mind the sufferings of another person and wishes them well. That's not so bad.
Posted by: John M H | November 3, 2009 12:38 PM
I know Vicodin and the like can be pretty cool, prescribed of course! And I know stories that start with a bad biopsy report often have happy endings. Enjoy breakfast, followed by lunch and dinner.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
November 3, 2009 12:42 PM
Get feeling better Stephanie. I seem to recall some studies where have a support group like family and friends (and church groups could fall into the latter) gives better outcomes.
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 3, 2009 12:51 PM
What? Klingons sacrifice worthless Romulans to the Unforgettable? Isn't that an insult?
Posted by: skylyre
|
November 3, 2009 12:54 PM
Be thankful for the well educated doctors, surgeons, nurses, etc who will be taking care of you... and even gladder that they don't rely on prayer to get through an operation! :)
Seriously, I hope the surgery and recovery go smooth for you.
Posted by: N | November 3, 2009 1:02 PM
I don't personally know you, Stephanie, but may your surgeon be steady and skilled, and I hope your recovery is quick and comfortable.
The futility of prayer was the first thing to cause me to really start examining my beliefs. It snowballed from there.
Posted by: Epinephrine | November 3, 2009 1:04 PM
Since Stepanie is reading hear, I'll wish her well in this thread. Hope you have a quick recovery (but take the time you need!).
If you're worse than a useless fool you'll *tell* the person that you're praying - the STEP study showed that those aware that they were being prayed for had significantly more complications. Granted, it was looking at intercessory prayer for cardiac bypass, but it may generalise to other surgical interventions too :P
Posted by: AlgaeGirl | November 3, 2009 1:08 PM
Stephanie, I'm sure you'll come through this with flying colors! I have every confidence that your doctors are awesome and will do a fantastic job. Think happy thoughts! That does lots more than prayer.
Posted by: bobby | November 3, 2009 1:08 PM
All the best and a quick recovery!
Posted by: Porco Dio | November 3, 2009 1:08 PM
can we not pray and just say we did?
Posted by: KemaTheAtheist | November 3, 2009 1:10 PM
PrayerWell wishes of thefaith-fullfaith-less.Thanks be to
Godthe doctors. For they make thebeside miraclesproper choices based on reason and practice to remove the unrestricted growth of abnormal cells from an otherwise properly functioning piece of biological machinery.GodDoctors and science have made recovery possible and they have earned our thanks.Now, in the words of
JesusSpock, we say to thee, Stephanie:"Live long and prosper."
/\ /\
/\ \ / /\
\ \ \ / / /
\ \ \/ / / __
| |/ /
| /
\_______ /
Posted by: KemaTheAtheist | November 3, 2009 1:13 PM
>:-(
It ruined my ASCI art Spock salute.
Posted by: KemaTheAtheist | November 3, 2009 1:17 PM
Fixed. And, yes, that's exactly what we're doing because we weren't told by a book not to not pray in public.
Posted by: Sili
|
November 3, 2009 1:29 PM
Orac,
I get your frustration, but would it kill you to add a word of encouragement? You're a cancer surgeon, ain't ya?
I've given wayyyy too much to US charities last month (why didn't you flog Donors Choose this year, PeeZed), but let me ask anyway: Any appropriate charities we (i.e. the other Pharyngulistas) can donate to?
Surgite!
Posted by: gogglesguy
|
November 3, 2009 1:41 PM
Here in Alabama they do it with prayers... (or so they say)
http://blog.al.com/goguru/2009/11/mother_says_prayer_helped_boy.html
Posted by: Ray Moscow
|
November 3, 2009 1:42 PM
Stephanie,
I and many others are wishing you health!
And are beaming happy thoughts in your direction.
Posted by: bcoppola
|
November 3, 2009 1:45 PM
I'm going to break the "no prayers" proscription: I pray He has touched you with His noodly appendage.
And careful with the Vicodin: It can give you the munchies.
Posted by: ecorona | November 3, 2009 1:46 PM
YES! Do something social and life-affirming: Make known your opposition to including payments for prayer in the healthcare reform bill now moving through congress. Keep medicine scientific!
Posted by: Ray Moscow
|
November 3, 2009 1:58 PM
Remember the House cautionary tale: Vicodin addiction can lead to a lonely life as a solitary, misanthropic medical & scientific genius with great-looking coworkers.
But on a short-term basis: enjoy!
Posted by: Janine The Ineffable, OM | November 3, 2009 2:23 PM
Thank you for the update, Stephanie. I hope you are back on the way to being well.
Also, I miss that radio show that you used to do. Is there any news about bringing back in some form?
Posted by: R. Schauer
|
November 3, 2009 2:35 PM
Stephanie,
Please let this wonderful sense of community support be inspirational to you during these trials in your life. Good Luck!
And a big "HANG-IN-THERE" for Ben, too.
Posted by: Heraclides | November 3, 2009 2:40 PM
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/3029129/Italian-schools-told-to-remove-crucifixes
Italian schools told to remove crucifixes
Posted by: Alverant | November 3, 2009 2:44 PM
Stephanie Zvan, I hope your surgery is successful and you have a quick recovery. There are many people who want you to get better again.
Posted by: Heraclides | November 3, 2009 2:45 PM
*Sigh* Didn't read the article first, dashing things off in that start of the working day. Very best wishes Stephanie.
Posted by: The Pint
|
November 3, 2009 3:01 PM
Best of luck to you, Stephanie! May you have a speedy return to health and the best possible medical care to assist with your recovery.
Posted by: Curt Cameron | November 3, 2009 3:06 PM
I sacrificed a chicken for you, Stephanie, so everything will be OK.
Posted by: theinquisitor | November 3, 2009 3:13 PM
Call me a knob, but isn't saying "good luck" just as superstitious?
Invoking some imaginary magical alternation to probability by nothing is cool, but invoking an imaginary magical alteration to to probability by a non-existent entity isn't?
I'm just looking for some consistency. Or failing that, an explanation of why I'm totally wrong and missing the point and how much of a knob I am for being such a knob.
Posted by: Jason Thibeault | November 3, 2009 3:16 PM
FYI, she's out from under the knife. The best wishes thread Greg put up at Quiche Moraine is here: http://quichemoraine.com/2009/11/please-help-us-honor-our-fearless-leader-and-other-matters/
Evidently she's playing Ratchet & Clank at the moment, under the influence of some good drugs.
Posted by: Jason Thibeault | November 3, 2009 3:18 PM
Oh. And she even posted upthread. That'll learn me to check my RSS feeds late, and not read *all* the comments. :p
Posted by: SWH | November 3, 2009 3:23 PM
Re: Joshua #19 "In any case, the worst case scenario is that by praying, a person just keeps in mind the sufferings of another person and wishes them well. That's not so bad."
Actually not true - the worst that can happen is that by telling patients you are praying for them the patients do worse. The STEP trial, probably the only good blinded multi-center trial of intercessionary prayer. This established that patients who were prayed for and not told about it did the same (statistically) as patients who were not prayed for - while those folks told people were praying for them had statistically significantly worse outcomes.
Benson et al Am. Heart J. 151, 934-42 (2006)
This has made me conclude that telling someone that you'll pray for them (and how often do we hear pols say that so and so is "in our prayers") is a purely malicious act which should be reserved for your enemies. (Actually, publicly praying for your enemies, or at least telling them that you are praying for them, might be a rational course of action)
Posted by: DazedNConfuzed | November 3, 2009 3:55 PM
Best wishes for a speedy recovery Stephanie :). I'd imagine Vicodin and video games can get interesting ;).
Posted by: Happy Tentacles | November 3, 2009 3:58 PM
Best wishes Stephanie for a rapid recovery!
Posted by: SQB
|
November 3, 2009 4:01 PM
Stephanie, I wish you a speedy recovery.
And while I have no personal Vicodin experience, from what I hear, DazedNConfuzed may be right.
Posted by: frankyv | November 3, 2009 4:06 PM
Hope it all goes really well, and your recovery is quick and complete :)
Posted by: Insightful Ape
|
November 3, 2009 4:18 PM
@Josh#19: It is not as simple as that. In the Harvard study on prayer, who had been prayed for and those hadn't did exactly the same, but the ones who had been prayed for and been TOLD about it did worse than both other groups (it is not clear why but one possibility is having been stressed out about doing well). So, see, prayer is not necessarily as harmless as you think. I don't want to be prayed for even if I have one foot in the grave.
Posted by: Insightful Ape
|
November 3, 2009 4:22 PM
Oooh, SWH beat me to the punch.
Posted by: Amy | November 3, 2009 4:22 PM
Stephanie,
Not sure if these will help but it seemed *slightly* more useful than praying:
http://www.cancerpoints.com/
http://www.patientfromhell.org/tips.htm
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/cancer-surgery/CA00033
Perhaps others have shared survival tips... I can only imagine what you're going through.
One breath at time. We're thinking of you.
Amy
Posted by: Richard Eis | November 3, 2009 4:53 PM
May your recovery be swift and painless, with extra video games.
Posted by: Dahan
|
November 3, 2009 5:13 PM
The inquisitor @ 45,
No, not really. When I say I wish someone has good luck, I don't believe that my doing so will in any way effect the situation. I'm simply telling them that I hope that things will go well for them. That isn't in any way a superstitious act. At least in no way that I can think of. It's just being supportive in an emotional sense.
If I prayed for them and believed that those thoughts/words would somehow make a difference, then obviously it is superstition in action.
Posted by: Dianne | November 3, 2009 5:13 PM
Stephanie: May your recovery be speedy, your pathology reassuring, and your immune system vigilant.
Posted by: SocraticGadfly | November 3, 2009 5:39 PM
Orac, I blogged the same today about this opening the door for Scientology and engram reading, as well as Sedona sweat lodges, etc.
http://socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2009/11/dump-orrin-hatch-alt-med-national.html
Posted by: mikecbraun | November 3, 2009 5:52 PM
One thing has struck me in my work with cancer patients: they are brave HUMANS. They are toughing it out. There are skilled, knowledgeable HUMANS helping these people live through diseases. Good job, HUMANS.
Posted by: mikecbraun | November 3, 2009 5:56 PM
Oops, forgot: get well Stephanie.
Posted by: ursulamajor | November 3, 2009 6:51 PM
I wish that all goes well for her.
"A prayer is just a wish with an address label."
~Me
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | November 3, 2009 10:10 PM
Stephanie, do get well.
I'd wager you've got lots to do yet.
Posted by: Janet Holmes | November 3, 2009 10:18 PM
Hi Stephanie, from the perspective of someone who has spent far too much time recovering from operations etc, do NOT try to 'get well soon'. Just sit back and lap it up! It's not often you get the chance to be looked after, you may as well get it while it's going. When you can't stand it any longer is soon enough to to be getting better. Being sick sucks but you may as well make the most of the compensations. Drugs, chocolate and laziness!
Posted by: Brian | November 3, 2009 10:25 PM
I talked to God this morning. He said he's still busy trying to turn Matt Dillahunty's spoon into a fork. It's not going very well.
Posted by: gigi | November 3, 2009 10:42 PM
Stephanie -
Here's to a speedy recovery! May the Xbox / Wii / Playstation / PC bring you much joy during your successful healing process!
@Sili
May I recommend the "Ride to Conquer Cancer"? My father (71 years young) will be riding again this year - 150+ kms by bicycle, from Toronto to Niagara Falls, to raise funds for The Campbell Family Institute at The Princess Margaret Hospital.
Posted by: proicrastinator | November 3, 2009 11:01 PM
Greetings Stephanie Zvan,
Please enjoy a quick recovery from your operation.
Best wishes,
JB
Posted by: Arwen
|
November 4, 2009 1:48 AM
Best wishes Stephanie ^_^
May the amazing powers of Science help you to feel better!
Posted by: ZenMonkey | November 4, 2009 5:05 AM
Stephanie, as I commented to you before, I have been there, and I wish you nothing but the best. I am happy to say that since my procedure I have been entirely cancer-free, and I know that can happen for you too.
Posted by: George Acosta | November 4, 2009 10:22 AM
Here's to a quick recovery!!
Posted by: Junkjungle | November 4, 2009 11:26 AM
Here's a drink to your speedy recovery and to give that cancer a good arse-kicking!
Posted by: eddyline | November 4, 2009 12:27 PM
Hang in there Stephanie. This is beatable, and you'll do that. Keep thinking about another healthy fifty years after you beat this!