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Category: Skepticism • Weirdness
Posted on: November 14, 2009 5:47 PM, by PZ Myers
John Wesley, the Methodist theologian, also advocated 'natural' cures for illness, so he was kind of a quack. However, this account of Wesley's recommendations for treating the sick has one prescription I really like. No, not the one about holding a warm puppy against your tummy for stomach-ache (although that one is pretty good)…it's a couple of paragraphs below that one.
I'll let you figure it out.
NO! It's not drinking beer for tuberculosis, either!
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Comments
Posted by: Glen Davidson
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November 14, 2009 5:58 PM
Sensible man in some ways...
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: gigi | November 14, 2009 6:04 PM
I'm healthy. Just FYI... *grin*
Posted by: Mystyk | November 14, 2009 6:04 PM
A fine recommendation. Now I just need to have my wife see this, then claim to have TB.
*** Prepares to be TB cure-free for many nights for writing this ***
Posted by: Eliot Fischer | November 14, 2009 6:04 PM
... which is all well and good until your wife contracts TB from sharing such close contact with you. Then not only are you dying a rather nasty death, you're also seriously in the doghouse.
Posted by: Uncle Glenny
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November 14, 2009 6:06 PM
Just goes to show even alt-med is biased to straight males.
Posted by: Xenithrys | November 14, 2009 6:08 PM
Don't get too excited. You have to eat all that boiled sorrel first.
Posted by: HenryS
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November 14, 2009 6:08 PM
Of course when you look at "scientific" medicine at the time of Wesely, a century later Eddy or the homeopaths, their advocacy for natural cures was rational. I would take a warm puppy over bleeding, purging and ingesting heavy metals.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
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November 14, 2009 6:11 PM
As well he should. Despite what the medical priests say, a horse manure poultice on the scalp does not cure baldness. Don't ask me how I know this.
Posted by: Felix | November 14, 2009 6:17 PM
I think I'll rather resort to that therapy long before getting into late stage TB.
Posted by: Kaleberg | November 14, 2009 6:25 PM
What's wrong with boiled sorrel? Ashkenazic Jews call it shav. You used to be able to buy jars of it.
Posted by: Mack | November 14, 2009 6:26 PM
It's not just boiled sorrel, you also get to eat candy!
But I doubt Fuck Yourself To Optimum Health is going to become the rallying cry of the alternative medicine crowd anytime soon. Although....
Posted by: Lynna | November 14, 2009 6:27 PM
A known side effect of horse manure poultices is a mistaken belief that oral sex comes before spanking.Posted by: Kristian Käll | November 14, 2009 6:29 PM
Well. Studies say (saw it a few years ago in a documentary on Discovery channel) that regular sex (ca 3 times a week) do make for a healthier individual and longer life span.
Posted by: A. Noyd
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November 14, 2009 6:30 PM
Mack (#11)
Call it The Holistic Tantric Wellness Regimen and they'd lap it up, I'm sure.
Posted by: Sili
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November 14, 2009 6:30 PM
At the risk of becoming a concern troll, I have to say that that isn't really funny.
That particular superstition is widespread in South Africa and is the cause of - I don't know how many - childrapes.
Posted by: Martin Brock | November 14, 2009 6:36 PM
By God, you've made me a believer.
Posted by: Caine | November 14, 2009 6:40 PM
Mack @ #11:
Oh, I don't know. I imagine Carnal Cures or somesuch could be marketed to the "I'll believe anything crowd".
Posted by: Newfie | November 14, 2009 6:44 PM
out of what?
Posted by: Trophy Wife | November 14, 2009 6:46 PM
PZ - I think it's time to come home! :D
Posted by: uncle frogy | November 14, 2009 6:57 PM
well as long as you were able you would feel better
reminds me I have read that Taoist 'believed" that if you could have intercourse with as many partners as possible in a day while retaining your "precious fluid' you could attain immortality.
Maybe, but you might feel like it any way ;-)
Posted by: Azkyroth
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November 14, 2009 7:08 PM
Posted by: OurDeadSelves | November 14, 2009 7:09 PM
Wesley does not state if this cure applies to female consumptives too.
If this "cure" applies to the ladies as well, then my entire perception of Methodists has changed.
Posted by: Phledge | November 14, 2009 7:11 PM
@Sili: thank you for raising that issue. I don't think anyone here would advocate that, but you're right--what we find terribly amusing (in our privilege) is actually justifying some horrible crimes against humanity right now.
Posted by: Eamon Knight | November 14, 2009 7:13 PM
Two points:
1)Are there any early-18th century therapies that aren't quackery by our standards?
2) Gotta love how this paragon of righteousness so casually deploys the F-bomb. Just shows how conventions of acceptable/offensive vocabulary change over time.
Posted by: Joel
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November 14, 2009 7:18 PM
Oh, my.
Johnny, we hardly knew ye!
Posted by: aratina cage
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November 14, 2009 7:20 PM
I'm finding it a little hard to believe that John Wesley wrote "fuck" in a book, or that he advocated fucking without tying it in to monogamy. LOL. I knew the Methodists had a dirty little secret.
Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | November 14, 2009 7:21 PM
@Sili...and for some reason I laughed anyway. I don't think you are being a concern troll, but maybe a bit of a buzzkill. Nothing stops the laughter like childrapes.
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | November 14, 2009 7:48 PM
I remember my mother telling me about some pet rats she kept one year when she was little. She got them in the spring and her father made a cage without a bottom so that she could take the rats outside and, by sliding the cage from one location to another, the rats could forage at will, eating what they found palatable. They appeared to thrive under such care, she said.
Comes winter and the rats are moved indoors and begin a diet comprised mostly of water and white bread. Ma said they developed tumors in their mouths and didn't live to see the next spring. So much for white bread. Ever try seeing how small you can squeeze a loaf of Wonder Bread?
I suppose her experience is a major factor in her learning how to bake absolutely killer bread. Seriously substantial shit. Thankfully, she taught me so I would know how. Thanks, Ma.
Posted by: the pro from dover | November 14, 2009 7:56 PM
As a physician and a united methodist I can safely say that the current reccommendation from the UMC is to go to your doctor when you're sick and make sure he/she is following current peer reviewed and cost effective guidelines. No one looks to old John Wesley for medical advice but I'll be sure to point this last one out to Rev. Martz the next time I see him and suggest he add it to a sermon in the near future. Regardless I'm sure we've already got this prescription in place as I'm also sure we have no active TB cases in our congregation.
TPFD.
Posted by: littlejohn | November 14, 2009 7:57 PM
There is only one healthy woman in my neighborhood. And boy is she tired. Ba dum-dum.
Posted by: g | November 14, 2009 7:58 PM
It seems possible that Wesley actually wrote "suck" rather than "fuck", disappointingly. (1) Google Books has an edition of the work, and it definitely says "suck". (2) There's an article from an 1890 journal that quotes various bits from the book -- see http://www.archive.org/stream/popularsciencene24agasrich/#page/n71/mode/1up -- and whose version of this bit is "Or, in the last Stage, take the Milk of an healthy woman daily; — tried by my Father."
So either (1) some bowdlerizer turned "fuck" into "suck" and then another expanded it to "take the Milk of an healthy woman daily", or (2) some anti-bowdlerizer turned "suck" into "fuck" (perhaps there's an edition that has an old-style long "s" at the start of the word "suck"?). I'd guess that #2 is correct, alas.
Posted by: Budbear | November 14, 2009 8:00 PM
I must, I must.
Posted by: Michael | November 14, 2009 8:05 PM
The letter "s" in old books often is printed like an "f" at the beginning of words. The context is all about taking things orally. I am sure it is "suck" (milk that is).
Posted by: John Morales | November 14, 2009 8:11 PM
g, very interesting.
This being Pharyngula, I had to check it out.
I'd even say fascinating. I quite like seeing remedies for "The Falling of the Fundament" and for "The Falling of the Womb". :)
Posted by: chuckgoecke
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November 14, 2009 8:21 PM
Recipe for a peanut butter and jam sandwich. Take two slices of wonder bread. Spread peanut butter on both slices of the bread, nice and thick. Take each slice of bread in each hand, facing the buttered sides together. Jam them together, with mighty force, so the result is approximately 1/4 inch thick. Enjoy!
Alternatively, one could put the PBJ sandwich into a zip closing sandwich bag, put it into ones back pocket, and sit on it from about 8:30 am until 11:30 am, in a hard seated desk. Yummy!
Posted by: rdbaker | November 14, 2009 9:00 PM
I looked this up on google books but instead of "fuck" it says "suck.
Of course, this might be an unauthorized edit to a later edition.
Posted by: norumaru
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November 14, 2009 9:23 PM
Is it the ivy leaves?
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
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November 14, 2009 9:29 PM
Budbear #32
I told you not to ask me. What are you, deaf, dumb or disobedient?Posted by: Romeo Vitelli
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November 14, 2009 10:12 PM
There was also a common belief that simply lying in bed with a virgin and inhaling her breath would rejuvenate elderly men. It was called shunamitism and some brothel-keepers had quite a racket going for a while selling their services to gullible men with money.
http://drvitelli.typepad.com/providentia/2009/08/the-shunnamites.html.html
Posted by: Noni Mausa | November 14, 2009 10:20 PM
The hot-puppy one actually works.
Noni
owner of one hot puppy
Posted by: WMDKitty | November 14, 2009 10:27 PM
@Noni -- Kitties work well, too. Also a good treatment for depression!
Posted by: Caustic Gnostic | November 15, 2009 12:46 AM
That should have been chicken manure, not horse....
Posted by: Autumn | November 15, 2009 12:51 AM
Noni, are you suggesting that we fuck puppies?
That's not okay.
Posted by: equisetum | November 15, 2009 2:43 AM
@Felix: "I think I'll rather resort to that therapy long before getting into late stage TB."
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Posted by: Ivan | November 15, 2009 4:01 AM
This is almost certainly a case of a long s being misinterpreted as an F.
Here's an example in a scanned text, John Hale's A Modest Enquiry Into the Nature of Witchcraft:
Posted by: Moggie | November 15, 2009 4:29 AM
Shut up, Wesley!
#24:
As Le Canard Noir's piece points out, some of Wesley's remedies would have been effective, such as a diet of turnips for scurvy. Stopped clocks and all that.
Posted by: Draken
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November 15, 2009 4:56 AM
But if it said 'suck' rather than 'fuck', it doesn't seem to say where to suck her...
Posted by: Vicars Daughter
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November 15, 2009 5:00 AM
I agree, Noni :o)
My puppy shaped microwaveable wheat pad is very good for stomach-ache ... oh no, all these years I've been calling myself an atheist - I'm a closet Methodist! eek
Posted by: PenguinFactory
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November 15, 2009 6:12 AM
I support a government funding program for the puppy thing.
Posted by: Knockgoats | November 15, 2009 6:15 AM
Some of my disreputable ancestors apparently converted to "Primitive Methodism" around the 1840s. Now I understand why!
Posted by: sailor1031 | November 15, 2009 6:24 AM
#29: you wrote "As a physician and a united methodist I can safely say that the current reccommendation from the UMC is to go to your doctor when you're sick and make sure he/she is following current peer reviewed and cost effective guidelines. No one looks to old John Wesley for medical advice" - presumably in the light of scientific knowledge? So, pray tell, why grant him authority in the religious realm, where there is equally improved knowledge in the realms of physical and biological sciences, not to mention scriptural analysis and textual criticism?
Ivan @45: you can't read this aloud without sounding an awful lot like Sylvester when he gets excited on the chase after Tweetie...
Posted by: scooter | November 15, 2009 7:19 AM
No fuzzies were harmed when PZ said:
Down south a sixpack of Tree Frog Beer, a rail of meth, whatever number of tequila shots, with a roofie chaser, that's is what leads to the legendary three dog night.
Posted by: Ric | November 15, 2009 7:36 AM
Does it have to be a different woman daily? Because I'm a pretty good looking dude, but that might be tough even for me. ;)
Posted by: Alchemipedia | November 15, 2009 7:46 AM
The word used is sucking not f**king. This is likely to be an OCR typo.
The advice seems to make sense if you equate a "healthy woman" with a woman who is lactating. In the time of John Wesley a "healthy woman" would be seen as a woman capable of childbearing and then breast feeding post partum. Historically such a fertile "healthy woman" would be breast feeding until she fell pregnant again. So a healthy woman would be one who is either pregant or breast feeding.
Even in John Wesley's time it was probably well known that breast milk had special healthy properties.
Obtaining breast milk, through sucking at the breast, would be just as appropriate for a woman and child in these circumstances.
Posted by: Canuck | November 15, 2009 7:55 AM
I try to do that every day, and twice a day if I can, but for one reason or another, we don't manage every day. Definitely on the radar for today though.
Posted by: Ivan | November 15, 2009 10:03 AM
Indeed. Even reading ſilently, I find it quite impoſſible to abſtain from mentally pronouncing the eſfes like effs.
Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | November 15, 2009 10:04 AM
"S" huh? Damn. I'm lactose intolerant.
Posted by: jimmiraybob | November 15, 2009 10:36 AM
...holding a warm puppy against your tummy...
I've always considered this more of a preventive than a cure but I guess it can work both ways (Puppyopathy 101).
Posted by: jimmiraybob | November 15, 2009 10:38 AM
And kittenopathy too. Goldfishopathy.....maybe not so much.
Posted by: Scott Hatfield, OM
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November 15, 2009 11:07 AM
PZ, I'm afraid you're just encouraging people like me to continue to be Methodists...:) Obviously, there will be divisions between atheists who will chortle indulgently at the peculiarities of past Christians, and those who will not. Aren't you worried that reporting this little oddity will put you squarely in the camp of the former?
'Deep rifts', indeed!....:)
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
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November 15, 2009 11:17 AM
ƒilly perƒon, that'ƒ becauƒe you're uƒing a ƒmall "f" inƒtead of an "ƒ".
Posted by: Lynna | November 15, 2009 11:32 AM
@49
Makes as much sense as some of our congressmen trying to get reiki and other woo-related therapies included in the health care reform bill. And the puppy would be cheaper.
Posted by: Sastra
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November 15, 2009 12:09 PM
Yes, if you read the discussion in the comments after the article, it's more likely that Wesley wrote "sucking" instead of "fucking." Of course, when performed by two healthy participants, one is likely to lead to the other, anyway.
That aside, this was a very interesting article: I hadn't been aware that much of the rhetoric of the modern altie had roots in such a traditional religion. The author was also careful in showing how Methodism's tenets -- both Biblical and health -- were drawing from enlightenment philosophy.
Ah, you don't have to be an expert then -- just use your common sense and try things for yourself! Like when you decide whether evolution seems plausible, on the surface, and therefore end up rejecting all those smarty-pants educated folk.
If you examine the the rhetoric of So-Called Alternative Medicine you can see it's run through with the same assumptions in modern spirituality; they're both "wrapped in the language of naturalness, personal experience and free from corrupting influence" of reason, science, and a modern world which doesn't give prime place to the Soul anymore.
Really nice link.
Posted by: Jefrir | November 15, 2009 3:25 PM
I'd definitely recommend the puppy-cuddling as a palliative treatment for almost anything. Make sure that the puppy is either docile or worn out first though - being jumped on does not have quite the same effect.
Posted by: Lyvvie | November 15, 2009 5:45 PM
Will there be a group of healthy young men around for those of us who require the cure?
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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November 15, 2009 7:21 PM
"In the last stage, f**k a healthy woman daily. This cured my Father.
What more marvellous natural cures could we wish for. And from a Methodist. Wesley does not state if this cure applies to female consumptives too."
Congratulations to all lesbian Pharyngulites! John Wesley, the Methodist theo-lie-gian, has effectively declared that you are all protected from TB.
And methodists say that homosexuality is an 'evil' lifestyle? Just look at the health benefits! With the rise of antibiotic resistent strains of TB, such protection just has to be the favour of the benevolent sky fairy, wouldn't you agree John? Unless it only applies to straight sex. After all, John's god is a nasty homophobic bigot just like most of his sheeple followers. But if so, why not say so? Could it be that John has gone soft on 'teh gheys'? Or at least 'teh lesb'yns'? I do not think his co-religionists will take that very well.
Let's test his theory. I wonder if he would consent to being infected with the most virulent and treatment-resistent strain of turbculosis and then, having been provided with some healthy methodist women, he could cure himself without medical attention. Now that would be proof, if not of his wacky claim, then of his commitment to his crazy beliefs.
Somehow, I just don't see him going for this scenario. Can't imagine why. . .
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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November 15, 2009 7:24 PM
Obviously, such proof would be easier to obtain if he were still alive. . .
Must. Read. Articles. More. Carefully.
Posted by: the pro from dover | November 15, 2009 7:58 PM
To sailor1031: I don't recall actually saying anything about believing John Wesley at all. Methodism is just a way of worship. There are no creeds and no statements of belief. I don't know anything about what Mr.Wesley actually believed and I really don't care. TPFD.
Posted by: Richard Eis | November 16, 2009 6:35 AM
If you don't have a hot puppy, use a hot water bottle. You can squeeze them harder too.
Posted by: teammarty | November 16, 2009 10:09 AM
Lynna- I thought oral sex was DURING the spanking.
Posted by: toth
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November 16, 2009 10:22 AM
I KNEW there was a reason I liked Wesleyan. Explains a lot, too.
Posted by: Lyle | November 16, 2009 10:34 AM
I wonder if my health insurance plan covers that treatment. I'll bet the copay is rather high.
Posted by: aratina cage
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November 16, 2009 10:52 AM
Gregory Greenwood,
More on that at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_MethodismHidden under the official UMC position is a story of strong regional divides and tyranny of the majority with some UMC regions leaning heavily toward varying degrees of acceptance of homosexuality but more UMC regions forcing their anti-gay stance on the non-gay-hating member churches and packing the UMC judiciary with gay-hating judges.