…and this is a 
At first glance, I thought this story was good news: Oklahoma is going to build a Christian prison! About time, I thought, I can think of a few Christians who deserve a few years for faith-abuse. But no…it's a prison to be administered by Christians to give Christian criminals special privileges. Not quite as appropriate, but more in line with what we've gotten used to from our dominant faith tradition.
We're getting more of the same from Congress, too. Religion is being given permission to intrude on science once again, with the sanctimonious Orrin Hatch (abetted by a pair of Democrats, Kerry and Kennedy) sponsoring a provision in the mangled health care football to allow prayer to count as medicine. It's specifically a sop to Christian Science, that nonsensical superstition that believes that medicine is a betrayal of faith and that wants to charge sick people money to pray over them…and also get reimbursement from the government. Let the Christian Scientists get a foot in the door and official recognition of mumbling to Jesus as a billable service, and you know the Scientologists and Jehovah's Witnesses and Amish and Mormons and, of course, the Catholics will be surging through to take advantage of the opportunities.
I may just have to convert to Catholicism under this bill so I can charge the US and my insurance provider to cover my near-sightedness treatments at Lourdes. And the French Riviera.
You laugh. But look at the absurdity of existing loopholes.
The Internal Revenue Service, for example, allows the cost of Christian Science prayer sessions to be counted among itemized medical expenses for income tax purposes -- one of the only religious treatments explicitly identified as deductible by the IRS.
Moreover, some federal medical insurance programs, including those for military families now reimburse for prayer treatment.
…
The Christian Science religious tradition has always emphasized the role of trained prayer practitioners. Their job, as outlined by the church's founder, Mary Baker Eddy, is to pray for healing and charge for treatment at rates similar to those charged by doctors.
Practitioners are not regulated by the government, but many buy advertisements in a leading Christian Science publication. The publication requires an application process for the ads that includes the submission of patient testimonials, a practice that church leaders say is tantamount to a vetting process.
Davis has been trained as a practitioner and still occasionally treats the sick. "We'll talk to them about their relationship to God," he said. "We'll talk to them about citations or biblical passages they might study. We refer to it as treatment."
During the day, Davis may see multiple patients and pray for them at different moments. He charges them $20 to $40 for the day, saying, "I think that it would be considered modest by any standard."
Modest in absolute terms, but relative to the quality of the "treatment", that counts as a major ripoff.
We can at least hope that the bad publicity this provision is getting will lead to its removal…and even more optimistically, that it will lead to scrutiny of the unethical fraud of a secular government legitimizing any of these superstitious practices.
I hope the Oklahoma prison for pampered Christians is also found unconstitutional.
Politics
Comments
Posted by: Madam Pomfrey | November 4, 2009 12:10 PM
John Kerry sponsored this? The same guy who said during his presidential campaign that he would be a President who supports science?
Posted by: Lyle | November 4, 2009 12:11 PM
If the Catholic Church ran a prison, they would just give each inmate a bus ticket to a new city and tell them not to say why they moved there. (Please tell Bill Donohue I said that!)
Posted by: gadow
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November 4, 2009 12:14 PM
Singling out the religious rituals of specific traditions for special treatment under the law. How, exactly, is this constitutional?
Posted by: Brownian, OM
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November 4, 2009 12:14 PM
You must have made a mistake, PZ. We all know Christians are the most persecuted group in the world today.
Clearly this article is actually about a prison for Asian Muslim homosexual women.
And the Prayer-As-Medicine? Obviously not Christian Science, but Satanic Wiccan Liberal prayer.
Yep, you'd best go back and reread those links, and this time get it right.
Christians never get special treatment. At least, that's what they keep telling us.
Posted by: rawnaeris
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November 4, 2009 12:14 PM
For fucks sake!! Prayer is medicine now? Fucking wishful thinking can be charged for?! If were planning on going to med school I would be insulted if my years of hard work were considered equal to a praying quack!
Posted by: aratina cage
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November 4, 2009 12:18 PM
"John Kerry" Kerry? *sigh* Really?
Posted by: harv
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November 4, 2009 12:18 PM
That this kind of legislation is actually proposed is an outrage. Hard earned tax money going to Christian Scientists is bad enough, but taxes for Christian criminals takes the cake. This is the kind of thing we can point to when asked why atheists are so angry. Must write Senator's Kerry and (Kennedy?)--I guess this was being proposed before he died? What's the address for purgatory?
Posted by: TheoDoersing | November 4, 2009 12:18 PM
2 points:
1. Aren't all American prisons already Christian by default due to the over-whelming majority of inmates espousing belief in Christianity for one reason or another?
2. The pessimist in me doubts these religious handouts will be curtailed any time soon. I fear faith-based initiatives and Christian "medicine" will be a topic of concern for my great-great-grandchildren.
Posted by: kopd | November 4, 2009 12:19 PM
I wish I could get my insurance to cover massage therapy as treatment for chronic headaches. It's got to be at least as effective as prayer, even from a trained (HA!) prayer practitioner.
Posted by: The Science Pundit | November 4, 2009 12:20 PM
I saw this earlier over at Crooks And Liars. It was accompanied by the following video about Christian Science (which is headquartered in Kerry's and Kennedy's home state). If you don't want your head to explode from teh stupid, or your heart to break from seeing all the infected young minds, I suggest that you don't watch it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgHe1GGB4tE
Posted by: Mandrake | November 4, 2009 12:21 PM
I hope Oklahoma is found to be unconstitutional. (My apologies to rational people who happen to live there.)
Posted by: vhutchison | November 4, 2009 12:21 PM
Although the prison would be operated by a private corporation, there is no doubt that some State funds would be involved. Looks like a case for the courts.
There is no mention of God in the Oklahoma Constitution.
In the Oklahoma Constitution: Article II, section 5.
”No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such.”
Posted by: AF Comm Guy | November 4, 2009 12:21 PM
I'm a little unclear on something. If a Christian Scientist (damn, I hate putting those two words together) were to pray over me at the hospital, do they bill for their service or the result? I figure they will go with the smart thing and bill for the service, results be damned. Either way, I see a reall great opportunity here to put some serious hurting on their church. If you or a relative receive their services while in the hospital and you do not improve or get worse, it would open up a huge door to sue the living piss out of them. If I were a doctor I would welcome these charlatans to add their services to every one of my patients. When something doesn't go right I can just point the finger at them and say that their prayers caused your loved one to go tits up. "Hey, don't sue me. It was God's will. Blame his followers for focusing his attention on the patient. God's a pretty busy dude so if these witch doctors hadn't been doing their voodoo the patient might have slipped under the divine radar and gotten better instead."
Also, will these idiots be required to start carrying malpractice insurance if their services are officially recognized by law as a medical practice?
Posted by: skylyre
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November 4, 2009 12:22 PM
"The Christian Science religious tradition has always emphasized the role of trained prayer practitioners. Their job, as outlined by the church's founder, Mary Baker Eddy, is to pray for healing and charge for treatment at rates similar to those charged by doctors."
There is SO much wrong with that.
What do they mean "trained prayer practitioners"? Doesn't the almighty accept prayer from anyone?
The second part is funny because I work for a chiropractor and that's how much he charges for an office visit...heh.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | November 4, 2009 12:26 PM
Wait
WHAT?
Posted by: Laura | November 4, 2009 12:26 PM
I bet if someone proposed an atheist prison or a Muslim prison, it would stop real fast!
Posted by: David | November 4, 2009 12:26 PM
Now hold on for one second, I think we might be a bit hasty in our condemnation of new ideas. A christian prison, huh? Given your average christian's intensely unreasonable fear of "teh buttsex", this might work out for those of us who'd simply like to serve our sentences somewhere without getting raped.
Ooh... but there WOULD be a lot of proselytizing, and praying, and blaming Satan for all the bad things they'd done rather than owning up to them. Hmm. Never mind, I'll take the shower-rape option. I'd feel less dirty afterwords.
Posted by: Robert S. | November 4, 2009 12:27 PM
Couple of questions:
1. How will they determine who is a "Christian"? Whose definition of Christian?
2. Won't Oklahoma's state-run prisons be practically empty if they create Christian prisons?
Posted by: bpilgrim | November 4, 2009 12:29 PM
A Christian prison? Just the place for the assassins of women's health care providers. Government-run prisons have too many impediments to lionize them properly.
Posted by: skylyre
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November 4, 2009 12:30 PM
Sorry, just realized I was talking about a different part of the article, where the prayer practitioner says he charges $40
Posted by: Remuneration | November 4, 2009 12:30 PM
"The prison would accept only men near the end of their sentences who volunteer to come into the prison and sign an agreement to participate.
They would work full time at private industries that operate inside the prison, get job training, and earn money.
The money would go to support their families, pay restitution to their victims, contribute to their own room and board, and produce a nest egg they can take when they leave prison."
Sounds like a beautiful plan. Select from only prisoners motivated for further change among a subgroup of prisoners already likely to have a below average recidivism rate (volunteers, often with families, hoping for employment). Not that these people don't need help too, but helping only those prisoners least in need of help to demonstrate the power of God's salvation, lovely.
Posted by: bonsai4tim | November 4, 2009 12:30 PM
@13 "If you or a relative receive their services while in the hospital and you do not improve or get worse, it would open up a huge door to sue the living piss out of them."
Exactly---there isn't any medical malpractice tort reform in the health bill either.
Wish the lawyers would catch the same clue with the whole same sex marriage thing---increased marriage causes increased number of divorces, so increased legal fees for the divorce lawyers
Posted by: Newfie
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November 4, 2009 12:31 PM
I think that the Prayer as Medicine provision is just another attempt to derail health reform legislation. They know that it would open a huge can of worms for every pseudo science, and holistic treatment out there. And of course, the insurance companies would be denying claims because of pre-existing curses and/or, demons.
The answer is a total overhaul of campaign finance regulations. Most of these "public servants" are only looking to line their own pockets.
Joe "Droopy Dawg" Lieberman is a prime example.
Posted by: Glen Davidson
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November 4, 2009 12:32 PM
I doubt prisoners would exactly be pampered at the prison, in fact.
Not that such discrimination and special privileges are at all appropriate, of course.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: Abdul Alhazred
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November 4, 2009 12:34 PM
Could be considered a plus in terms of a short sighted desire to save money.
Posted by: user@example.com | November 4, 2009 12:34 PM
"Ninety-eight percent of offenders are going to get out of prison. What kind of offender do you want living next door?"
Is this guy trying to scare people by reminding them that most prisoners aren't in there for life? What the hell? That's stupid even for a fundie.
Posted by: gearoidmm | November 4, 2009 12:35 PM
Not that I'm promoting the beneficial overall effects of prayer or anything but I can assure you that prayer over a sick person with a cold is at least as effective as all the antibiotics that are handed out. Once (unlike the Christian Scientists) it is restricted to non-life threatening complaints - no promises to cure cancer - I don't see any particular problem with this. The placebo effect can be very beneficial and if this makes people feel subjectively better, then why not?
We use placebos of all kinds all the time
Posted by: Ray Moscow
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November 4, 2009 12:37 PM
Bah. Christian Scientists are (relative) amateurs!
http://www.freewebs.com/tcsec/clapp.htm
Posted by: Olivia | November 4, 2009 12:37 PM
In regards to the healthcare provision, I thought we were supposed to be *reforming* healthcare, not sending it back to the dark ages. But seriously, by claiming that prayer treatments are on par with actual medicine and science, this opens the door for all those wacko religious people to refuse chemotherapy and other medicines for their children. In the past, the courts have ruled that such parents willfully endanger their children - but with this provision, it'll actually be legal. Another tally for the "Religion = Child Abuse" chart.
Posted by: Michelle R | November 4, 2009 12:37 PM
Will the faith-based prison will use punishments from the bible? You know.. The hand-cutting and stoning?
Posted by: DicePlayGod | November 4, 2009 12:38 PM
I like that ... "We refer to it as treatment."
He must have meant "everyone else would call it a rip-roaring scam, but we refer to it as treatment".
Posted by: Joe S | November 4, 2009 12:40 PM
Hilarity should certainly ensue here. Prisoners are about the most litigious segment of the population. They have waaay more time on their hands than most of us, access to prison law libraries, which are often better equipped than most small law firms' libraries, and they have an acute sense of when their rights may have been violated.
Another angle of attack that seems obvious: federal prisons, and those in almost every state, are not allowed to produce goods for sale except to government entities. Both organized labor and business groups got those laws passed to prevent cheap prison labor from competing with workers on the outside. When private businesses realize that they will be competing against companies using cheap convict labor, this will get killed in the legislature.
Posted by: Abdul Alhazred
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November 4, 2009 12:42 PM
I'd rather have an atheist college professor next door (even one who did some time for burglary, let's say), than a Christian "ex-offender" who beat up the last faggot he lived next door to.
Posted by: daveau
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November 4, 2009 12:43 PM
Well, if they were really christians, they wouldn't be in prison in the first place.
/Mom
Posted by: TechSkeptic
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November 4, 2009 12:46 PM
1) Why can I sign in with type pad but not moveable type?
2)
Let the Christian Scientists get a foot in the door and official recognition of mumbling to Jesus as a billable service, and you know the Scientologists and Jehovah's Witnesses and Amish and Mormons and, of course, the Catholics will be surging through to take advantage of the opportunities.
I'm generally not a conspiracy theorist... but given the republican hard on to demonstrate that anything close to government sponsored healthcare would be a disaster, don't you think this was intentionally done for that specific result?
Posted by: akshelby
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November 4, 2009 12:46 PM
Here is an interesting article from the New York Times about special Christian wards in prisons.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/business/10faith.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=us
Compared to the rest of the general population, they are pampered. Only the more bible-based fundamentalists Christians are supported. I remember reading an article that showed that their recidivism rates are actually higher than normal but I can't seem to find it.
Posted by: True Bob | November 4, 2009 12:47 PM
Next will be government payments for hand waving and dowsing. I suppose if you want some real healing, you dare not pray for it yourself, you need to hire a professional prayer master. It reminds me of temple concubines, in a way. Of course, if it were me, I'd choose the concubine, every time.
Posted by: Vanessa | November 4, 2009 12:47 PM
John Kerry, I still mourn your loss in 2004. And you go and do this? Oh the humanity.
The repercussions of this are just staggering. If this is recognized as a legitimate medical treatment, presumably idiot parents who deny their children medical care so someone can instead wave a Bible over them would be exempt from prosecution as well. Why is this country charging backward into the Dark Ages at full throttle?
Posted by: deathgrindfreak | November 4, 2009 12:49 PM
God dammit, why is it always my state that's on the front pages of "Atheist news." I need to move . . .
Posted by: aratina cage
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November 4, 2009 12:50 PM
Exactly, Vanessa. Is there even one scuzzbucket we can trust in Washington, D.C.?
Posted by: True Bob | November 4, 2009 12:50 PM
akshelby, I recall that as well. IIRC, they abused the math (big surprise) by excluding every enrollee who dropped the program before their sweet release.
Posted by: JarrodB | November 4, 2009 12:51 PM
Lyle at #2: Best comment EVER!
Posted by: Vanessa | November 4, 2009 12:51 PM
Ok, you know how can you charge for prayer? Are you really doing anything? Isn't God doing the work? You pay for doctors because they've had 8+ years of school. At least a Chiropractor went to some kind of school. Criminey, I have to Google this story. I really can't believe it's real.
Posted by: CunningLingus
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November 4, 2009 12:52 PM
Going by the number of prisoners who are allegedly xtain, a huge percentage by all accounts, and the relatively few who profess atheism, or no belief, i'm thinking an Atheist prison would be rather empty of inmates, or at least a very small building.
Posted by: Porco Dio | November 4, 2009 12:55 PM
another reason to laugh at yanks...
haha
and to leave a comment at PZ's
Posted by: Sili
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November 4, 2009 12:57 PM
Not if they're getting paid for it.Posted by: True Bob | November 4, 2009 12:57 PM
aratina, the answer, of course, is "Fuck No!".
Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemurian | November 4, 2009 12:57 PM
Not only does prayer not work, but, if you are aware you are being prayed for, you do worse than people not being prayed for.
Source http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j35/prayer.asp
Posted by: a lurker | November 4, 2009 12:59 PM
I love private prisons. All you have to do is bribe the judge to give long sentences in your prison for trivial offenses and the money just rolls in. Damn it, I got a yacht payments due and my preacher thinks our church needs a new sanctuary and those don't just grow on trees.
Posted by: Ryan Stello | November 4, 2009 1:01 PM
Peanut-butter jeez-its!
Paying someone else to help administrate your "deep, personal relationship" is the height of an impersonal detachment from your own supposed convictions.
Posted by: FlameDuck | November 4, 2009 1:01 PM
I think this is a FANTASTIC idea, on one condition, and for several reasons.
The condition is that Religious organisation lose their Tax Exemption. That's right. To paraphrase the late great George Carlin, if they want to mix religion and politics, let them pay their dues like everyone else.
The reason for supporting Christian prisons, is that it'll make all the non Christian prisons less crowded. Like #8 said a significant portion of prison populations are Christian, so this would at least solve the prison overcrowding issues for non-Christians, which is a fantastic idea.
The reason for supporting prayer as medicine, is that it would prevent these fuckwits from receiving *actual* medicine, that is better used on other people anyway. Secondly, Christians believe that original sin is the reason they even get sick in the first place, so practically any insurance company would deny them coverage due to a preexisting condition. Catch-22 is such a bitch. If only your religion wasn't so fucking stupid.
Posted by: Christian Wright | November 4, 2009 1:02 PM
Having grown up Christian Scientist but now atheist, I can help out a little.
Yes, the religion is quite backwards, yet everyone is very nice. It's just a lot of asinine, backwards doctrine. Technically, nothing with drugs or addictive properties in it could be consumed, so bye-bye to soda and alcoho1!
Praying away the pain (instead of going to a doctor) arose out of abominable medical practices during the late 1800's, but now with medicine as it is now, it seems quaint to argue against medical care.
At least a nice part of the faith was there weren't any formal leadership positions. The people who had to slog through the scriptures and all that nonsense did so as volunteers, essentially. There wasn't a bishop, nor a vicar, or any other authority figure that would condemn you. Instead, it would probably be your next-door neighbor or your friend's mom.
As far as jumping off the bandwagon, it was quite easy growing up. I mean, honestly, it takes two rational thoughts to realize the religion is full of crap. And hey, they won't really disparage you, because, well, it happens all the time from what I remember. They always needed to work on their retention rates...
I will say though, they did produce an outstanding newspaper that I recommend you read regardless of your religious stance. The Christian Science Monitor was one of the best national dailies in terms of international reporting. The publication has morphed into a glossy weekly, but all you really have to do is ignore the religion column the church puts in and read the rest. It always contains top-of-the-line reporting and stories from all around the world.
Posted by: Matt Heath | November 4, 2009 1:04 PM
huh? Surely to even begin to justify the prison they'd have to say that it wasn't an arm of the government. Private companies running prisons as anything other than contractors for the government sounds a like something from a bad dystopian novel.
Posted by: bcoppola
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November 4, 2009 1:05 PM
And, per Robert Reich's "Supercapitalism": Strip corporations of their legal "personhood" & replace the corp. income tax with taxes on individual stockholders' capital gains (withheld like other working stiffs' incomes), thus diminishing corporate influence on legislation.
But hey, wouldn't housing the various Xtian denominations together, including beauts like Xtian Identity, eventually lead to sectarian riot & slaughter?
Posted by: fossilator
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November 4, 2009 1:06 PM
Next, religious affiliation other than xian or atheism will be considered a pre-existing condition and a reason to deny benefits (it's your fault you picked the wrong deity.)
Posted by: stptrck75
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November 4, 2009 1:08 PM
The hospital affiliated with my university in upstate NY recently announced that it will be offering Reiki training and Reiki services to patients. Yah.
I wrote a letter to one of the directors a few days ago condemning their actions. I've yet to hear back.
Reiki! Seriously...
Posted by: mwsletten
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November 4, 2009 1:08 PM
Bring on the heathens!
http://www.queenstribune.com/news/1253209214.html
Posted by: Endor | November 4, 2009 1:10 PM
So, they want to cover prayer, but not abortion.
I don't know about you other ladies, but I have never felt so equal, free and respected.
Posted by: momentofsciencetx | November 4, 2009 1:13 PM
So the religious nuts have found another way to make some cash outside of the megachurchs.
Posted by: Watchman | November 4, 2009 1:16 PM
Off-topic, but... damn.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-11-04-gay-marriage-maine_N.htm?csp=34
Posted by: Pliny-the-in-Between | November 4, 2009 1:20 PM
Woo get's recognition in healthcare reform legislation while physicians are to be held to a higher standard of evidence-based medicine. Can God be sued for lack of informed consent? Only in America.
Posted by: stptrck75
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November 4, 2009 1:24 PM
Haven't parents been prosecuted for relying on prayer to heal their children? Children who subsequently died as a result of their negligence?
Now the US gov't is promoting negligence as healthcare.
Brilliant.
Posted by: Matt Heath | November 4, 2009 1:26 PM
I think PZ is probably wrong in assuming it will be a soft regime. Admittedly, campaigns for humane prisons focusing on rehabilitation instead of retribution have often included Christians, who express their compassion in religious terms, but I don't think these are that sort of Christian. Note the connection to a Southern Baptist college.
Posted by: bumlet5 | November 4, 2009 1:28 PM
Getting paid a salary comparable to doctors' wages for just PRAYING?? Where can I get licensed for that kind of job? Is it like becoming licenced to perform wedding ceremonies? Is there a website?
Oh, wait.
I have a conscience.
And a brain.
Damn.
Posted by: Margaret's Cat
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November 4, 2009 1:28 PM
Christian Science Practitioner fees are listed as allowable expenses on pre-tax health care spending accounts. Also chiropractic & acupuncture. So the government already supports all those with our tax dollars.
Our company health insurance is being cut back yet again, but they waste money on chiropractic & acupuncture. Guess I should be glad they don't waste money on prayer like the government does.
Posted by: Irene Delse | November 4, 2009 1:29 PM
Christian Science "healer" charges for praying over patients? Looks like they are taking a leaf from the Scientology handbook...
Posted by: Die Anyway | November 4, 2009 1:37 PM
Maybe it's my contrarian nature... I say go for it. Insurance coverage and government support for Reiki, homeopathy, prayer, voo doo, you name it. Anybody stupid enough to rely on that junk is no great loss and while it may cost a little bit, one must always expect to pay a fee for garbage removal.
Eat well, stay fit, Die Anyway
Posted by: Ewan R | November 4, 2009 1:38 PM
I thought charging for prayers (athough generally post-mortem) was pretty much a historically accepted catholic practice.
Also - considering the fact that Christian Scientists for the most part wont be able to deduct too much in tax for medicine anyway, perhaps they should be cut some slack! (not really...)
On the comment about what type of ex-convict do you want living next door to you? - Clearly I want the ex-con who fervently believes that I am going to burn in hell for all eternity due to my beliefs, and who has a record of acting impulsively against societal norms. That's who I want. What with my death wish and all.
Posted by: Desert Son
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November 4, 2009 1:44 PM
Hey, a fellow myopic! I'd wave, but I can't see you from here.
Put me down for near-sightedness treatments at the French Riviera, too (I'd just as soon as skip the Lourdes part, if it's alright with the insurance companies and the government).
No kings,
Robert
Posted by: Another lurker | November 4, 2009 1:46 PM
If praying for someone to get better counts as medicine, shouldn't praying for someone to die be considered an attempt at murder? Does praying to win the lottery amount to fraud?
Posted by: Frank | November 4, 2009 1:53 PM
So let me get this right. This clown is proposing to build a prison on spec, with bond money that will have to be repaid by someone else. Have the citizens of this tiny town talked to the folks in Hardin MT who are desperate for someone to live in their brand-spanking-new-supermax prison that they went into debt for?
Someone's being swindled.
Posted by: pdferguson
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November 4, 2009 1:59 PM
I guess Oklahoma's just trying to keep up with Kansas which already has a Christian prison, also known as the Westboro Baptist Church. Fred Phelps is one mean motherfuckin' warden...
Posted by: raven | November 4, 2009 2:08 PM
OT The xians are at it again. More human child sacrifice.
Will the goverment pay the legal bills when faith healers kill another kid? My reading implies that some families in this cult have lost more than one kid to medical neglect.
Posted by: tim Rowledge
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November 4, 2009 2:08 PM
But, but, but..... Real Christians don't need prisons because they have that built-in MPS (Moral Positioning system) with the infallible Moral Compass option! Obviously anyone in prison (and they must all be Truly Guilty because no one is ever convicted wrongly by the wonderful Law Enforcement Authorities, though at the same time it is A Disgrace that all the perps get let off by Activist Judges and Crooked Lawyers) cannot be a Christian and so a Christian Prison is a pointless idea.
Did I get enough spurious capitalisation in there?
Posted by: ~Pharyngulette~
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November 4, 2009 2:10 PM
"Trained prayer practitioners"?
How do you get 'training' for praying? Are there courses to take? Lectures? How would you be tested for your qualifications to distinguish you from, say, some atheist who's just wandered in off the street and is in it for a lark (and trying desperately not to giggle)? Is there some sort of practical exam to check that the quality of your prayer is high enough?
I'm imagining a huge hall of prayer students at their final exam, all seated along a row of tables with glasses of water in front of them, praying furiously, with veins standing out in their temples. Those whose water changes to wine before the bell rings get their certificates and go on to become highly-skilled professional, trained Pray-ers. The others go back for remedial study.
Posted by: llewelly | November 4, 2009 2:29 PM
Orrin Hatch is doing this in part to encourage a split between the rationalist democrats and the woo-loving democrats. He's also doing it because he's a senator for the most woo-friendly state in the Union. He gets two opportunities to win with this trick: first, it may act as a poison pill, and divide the democrats. Second, if it does pass, the numerous Mormons of Utah can get money for their blessings, their "laying on of hands". Very clever, and totally evil. Worst monster in the US Senate. Kerry, in this instance, is just a credulous well-meaning tool.
Posted by: fauxrs
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November 4, 2009 2:30 PM
Well if that doesnt make you want to roll ones eyes in disbelief what could. On the otherhand, it would be a rare day when some politician didnt try to satisfy some religious group.
I've written my senators asking them to not support any religious woo in healthcare reform...
will be interesting to hear their reply, if any.
Posted by: Crewvy
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November 4, 2009 2:31 PM
A Christian prison? Well god knows they need one.
Everybody else knows there are no atheists in jail,especially when the parole board is sitting,then every convicted felon is a devout christian.
Posted by: blf | November 4, 2009 2:37 PM
I live in the South of France, and as I type this, am c.100 metres from the Mediterranean Sea. It doesn't seem to be doing anything for my (rather severe) myopia.
Rather annoyingly, I understand the French health care system (which I've heard argued is the best in the world) pays for homeopathetic rubbish. I don't know about preying rubbish.
Posted by: PZ Myers
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November 4, 2009 2:45 PM
But do you truly believe? I think there's a faith component that is thoroughly necessary.
I believe that if I left my glasses in my hotel room and parked myself on one of the topless beaches, my eyes will work twice as hard to adjust and bring objects into clarity.
Posted by: Drew | November 4, 2009 2:47 PM
Allowing the ill to be "treated" with prayer rather than medicine leads to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqYJXn2wNAU
Posted by: Hu Flung Pu | November 4, 2009 2:52 PM
If prayer is medical treatment, then so is masturbation since it can provide relief from headaches and helps prevent prostate cancer! Someone please tell Senator Kerry to make my health insurance provider pay for my porn!
Posted by: blf | November 4, 2009 3:03 PM
Since I'd never find the sodding beach without my glasses, I cannot confirm that hypothesis. The good thing, however, is you can go to more or less any beach. The seaside ones allow, by law, toplessness. This is part of the French equality thing: Men tend to go topless at beaches and hence, in a spirit of equality for all, women can too.
It can be very distracting bicycling along the seaside in the summer…
It's the nudist beaches you have to hunt down.
And do I believe? Well, yes, I do believe my dinner's ready.
Posted by: Michael Hawkins | November 4, 2009 3:03 PM
I would say someone should suggest starting an atheistic prison just to make a point, but it'd never work. The lack of atheists in prisons makes the whole thing laughable from the get-go.
Posted by: Don | November 4, 2009 3:10 PM
Christian Science prayer sessions to be counted among itemized medical expenses for income tax purposes
Actually difficult to phrase a coherent respnse to ths level of ... aaaarrrrgggghhhh
Posted by: lordshipmayhem
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November 4, 2009 3:12 PM
Orrin Hatch. That name is familiar to me from the lawsuits generated by The SCO Group, as they sued Novell, IBM, Autozone, Chrysler everyone else + dog for using intellectual property that The SCO Group didn't own in the first place, or had already open-sourced on their own.
He has a son IIRC who is intimately involved in the suits.
I'm not even living in the United States, he never seems to leave the United States, why can't I get away from him?
Posted by: Desert Son
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November 4, 2009 3:14 PM
blf,
Malapropism win.
Unless it wasn't a malapropism. Win regardless.
No kings,
Robert
Posted by: Roger
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November 4, 2009 3:24 PM
Wait a frakkin' minute. If Christians are being...well, Christian-y, then why would you even NEED to build a "Christian prison"? And will this Christian prison have a death row? Do these idiots even know what their religion is supposed to be about?
Posted by: blf | November 4, 2009 3:29 PM
Do sheep notice they were fleeced?
Posted by: Prometheus | November 4, 2009 3:31 PM
I understand how much PZ likes to characterize my fellow Oklahoman's as knuckle dragging monsters but "faith based prisons" have been around for years. Jeb Bush started them in Florida. They are exactly like any other prison with less rape.
This has nothing to do with faith, it is because they can have cigarettes.
Since they have a currency based on something other than sex and or violence/threats of violence....less rape.
There is no industry in the Oklahoma/Texas panhandle except industrial hog farming.
Economic desperation, meet business nobody wants in their back yard....oh yea, you guys are old pals.
Posted by: vhutchison | November 4, 2009 3:40 PM
Back to the main point in this thread: Wakita is a tiny (population 373, down 11.2% since 20000) town on the Kansas border. The proposal for a Christian prison is by Wakita and a private corporation in Texas. It is NOT a proposal by the Oklahoma legislature or State government, although the likes of Rep. Silly Sally Kern and her ilk would like it to be. The bond issues to finance the prison can not be from a State or local government agency by requirements of the Oklahoma constitution (see #12, above). For the same reason Oklahoma inmates could not be housed there. Any efforts to use government funds from any state or local government would surely result in a law suit. Hopefully, their efforts also will fail for the many reasons commenters have given above.
Posted by: Kagehi | November 4, 2009 3:51 PM
See. Here is the thing.. The problem with Prayer being counted as medicine is only *half* the problem. The other half is that, since its religious practice, and conducted by people that don't need/have state certifications or legal requirements, of any kind, they also don't have to keep track of who gets worse, who dies, **or** report these things to any public institution. If they did, you would see a 99% fail rate for "critical" conditions, probably an 80% one for stuff that can sort of, by accident, heal itself, and a 100% success rate on stupid shit like, "I had a cold, and it went away in a few days, when they prayed for me!"
What you see instead is "testimonials" from the bloody stupid morons that fall into the later category, where as the first category are usually a) lying, b) insanely lucky, or c) too dead to ask what they thought of the practice.
Posted by: Richard Eis | November 4, 2009 3:52 PM
So, you trap vunerable people with issues in a place and give them the full christian treatment. And I thought the military forced no-opt-out bible services were bad.
I fail to see why christians would need help with their prayer technique or bible reading skills. I also fail to see why christian-faux-scientists should get paid $40 for doing what they do all day anyway. Pray about the bible, talk about the bible and tell other people about the bible.
You know what this needs. A little noodly touch from you know who. Nothing like demanding money for pasta prayers to put this into perspective and turn it into a laughing stock.
Posted by: Pascale | November 4, 2009 3:58 PM
There were actually prospective studies of the efficacy of prayer as medicine a few years back. IT DID NO GOOD; if anything, the prayer group did a bit worse (perhaps they called attention to the vulnerability of the patient, giving the supreme being a better chance to bump them off?).
Here is the link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
Prayer is an unproven remedy. Just as we should not cover homeopathy, we shouldn't be paying for these services.
I feel a bit better now.
Posted by: blf | November 4, 2009 4:00 PM
Magdalene Laundries.
Posted by: MadScientist
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November 4, 2009 4:09 PM
The next atheist bus campaign should have something like:
Prayer KILLS, not cures!
It's true too - young girl dies painfully due to effects of diabetes (probably ketoacidosis) while parents pray for her - just for one fairly recent example - it's deadly bullshit. Even the Templeton Foundation was kind enough to pay for a study which demonstrated that prayed does jack shit.
Posted by: Flerndip | November 4, 2009 4:10 PM
I could never look at John Kerry without being reminded of Dr. Carl Hill (David Gale) in the 1985 film adaptation of the H. P. Lovecraft story "Herbert West: Reanimator".
Posted by: MadScientist
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November 4, 2009 4:16 PM
Here's a bill I'd like to railroad onto that one:
Religious institutions will have a similarly privileged tax status: they will now be taxed $0.90 on the dollar. Medical prayer will be allowed but limited to $20 per hour per patient and taxed at $3.00 on the dollar.
Posted by: Miss Adventure | November 4, 2009 4:16 PM
@Newfie #23 " And of course, the insurance companies would be denying claims because of pre-existing curses and/or, demons."
You owe me a new monitor! That is pure Genius Newfie!
Posted by: TheoDoersing | November 4, 2009 4:48 PM
There is a billboard I'm forced to drive by on the way to work that currently has the "Pray and fast to end abortion" nonsense.
At least that strategy keeps the religous preoccupied and not thinking about killing doctors and such.
At first I read it as "Pray and fast" as in hurry up and pray! Got a little chuckle at the thought of speed prayer. Perhaps that's what the Christian scientists offer: Prayer done as quickly and efficiently as possible. Wham, bam, where's my 40 bucks?
There is a billboard beneathe the other one I considered renting to put up something to the effect of "Prayer: a way to think and feel like you've made a difference without actually doing a damn thing."
Posted by: Caine
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November 4, 2009 4:53 PM
A prison just for christians? Oh, they're much too mighty and moral to commit crimes in the first place. Right?
Another religiously insane idea. Christians have no reason to care about committing crimes, because they are always forgiven by their SkyDad crimelord.
Posted by: Stan | November 4, 2009 5:13 PM
I'm shamed by that proposed prison in my home state...
Posted by: Julian | November 4, 2009 5:32 PM
As if more evidence of the universal perfidy of religion were needed. It seems to me that you can't get much more of a union between church and state than having the government pay people to pray according to a certain sect's proscriptions. I wonder if anyone in Washington these days even gives a damn about the Constitution anymore.
Posted by: Hittman | November 4, 2009 5:33 PM
How about this: If you submit a bill for medical prayer, that's the ONLY treatment you get to use.
Posted by: AuBricker | November 4, 2009 5:56 PM
As Christians commit by far and large the greatest number of crimes, it seems fair to keep them in a separate prison so as to protect the small number of us who may run afoul of the legal system. I believe that under Governor Bush -- I have to pause and spit every time I mention that name -- Texas had an early release system designed for born again Christians. The former inmates frequently returned to their life of crime, but I suspect the percentage of born again Christians in the prison system increased.
Posted by: atlanta | November 4, 2009 5:56 PM
You don't need these services to be deductible in the health bill, because they're already deductible if the "payment" is an "offering" or donation to the non-profit group. This is nonsense.
Posted by: wuffencuckoo | November 4, 2009 6:03 PM
Youse are all looking through the wrong end of the telescope.
The bill should be amended so that the ONLY medical treatment that all religiously devout patients get, is prayer. In all fairness the pray-ee should be able to opt for the pray-er (and the prayers) of his/her choice. And no 'death panel' should be able to pull the plug on the praying when the patient only gets worse.
Posted by: Logic H. Science | November 4, 2009 6:13 PM
I wasn't aware there were any non-Christians in Oklahoma. :) I grew up in Central Texas and knew less than a dozen aside from my godless family. Would love to see how the percentages run so far as Christians in the overall Oklahoma population and in the prison population. I'd be willing to bet they make up a larger portion in prison than would be expected.
Posted by: Sention | November 4, 2009 6:37 PM
Though it sucks for all the children who will suffer because their parents decided to go for prayer over actual medical treatments, will we actually be missing anyone worth a damn who dies because they chose prayer? Call me mean, but perhaps anyone insulted by this idea should also smirk at all the idiotic adults who will die under Prayercare. The only bad feelings I get from this ordeal is the people who are not capable (either legally or physically) of speaking for themselves. I had pretty much discerned the falseness of a god when I was a young lad, so I would have said "CUT ME OPEN!" at the drop of a hat if I had been given the choice. But I was raised in a sane environment.
Posted by: Al | November 4, 2009 6:49 PM
Guess it's time to dust off my Internet clergy credentials and get me some government money.
Posted by: Gordon | November 4, 2009 7:48 PM
@Christian #52: I think you were in the same sunday school class as me back in the day. Fancy that, us meeting here :-).
Posted by: Kristine | November 4, 2009 8:19 PM
Wow, a Christian prison. I'm looking forward to this - what a marvelous sociological petri dish! I can't wait to turn what happens into literary material (somewhat like "The Crucible," I expect).
One thing struck me, though:
Does George believe the prison will be built?
"We're dealing with politicians here; you tell me," he said.
Don't they already have Christian politicians in Oklahoma?
Posted by: articulett | November 4, 2009 8:21 PM
I do hope the Scientologists demand reimbursement for their clearing sessions--
I encourage all Scientologists to ask for the same privileges as Christians. It's the only way to get a truly secular society, I suspect.
Cross out "god" on your money and write in Xenu.
All religion is akin to Scientology to me. I don't to allow privileges for Christians that they would not allow Scientologists.
Posted by: Michael | November 4, 2009 10:18 PM
I always thought Krixstianity was already a prison
Posted by: David G. | November 4, 2009 11:23 PM
Christian jail? This is a great idea! You go to jail and you get 24/7 Christian prosylizing. Never mind Constutional rights. The criminal would be smothered in uplifting love every time they try to take a breath. This could be an awful specter for criminals - Gotta do better. Gotta stay out. It would be at least as effective as the death penalty. David
Posted by: Kevin | November 4, 2009 11:27 PM
If prayer counts as medicine, can its practitioners be sued for malpractice if the prayer doesn't work?
Posted by: Yngve Bøe
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November 5, 2009 1:33 AM
The Founding Fathers should be awarded the Nobel Peace prize or something similar. Think of all the instances of lunacy which have been quelled by the courts because they were deemed unconstitutional. In my country Norway the constitution is seldom used. In the US on the other hand it seems it is the greatest force for keeping it a secular country.
Posted by: Monado, FCD | November 5, 2009 2:33 AM
I trust that if the legislation passes, every Pharynula reader will show up at the local hospital on his or her next day off in full robes, with a random religious symbol in one hand and a receipt book in the other, ready to start some "treatments."2
Posted by: Rorschach | November 5, 2009 2:34 AM
See that is one of these moments where I just don't quite know what to say and words fail me.
So I'll say it with the great John McEnroe :
You can not be serious !!
Posted by: Richard Eis | November 5, 2009 4:33 AM
-Call me mean, but perhaps anyone insulted by this idea should also smirk at all the idiotic adults who will die under Prayercare-
Oh if only. Unfortunately the prayer will probably be treated as "extra" insurance against misfortune. Not actually the main treatment.
Yeah I had chemo and surgery, but that 3 minute $40 prayer made all the difference really...
Posted by: exjehovah
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November 5, 2009 5:01 AM
Lifelong Jehovah's Witnesses dissident speaks out on JW belief system .
A) They are at your door to recruit you for their watchtower society corporation,they will say that "we are just here to share a message from the Bible" this is deception right off.
B) Their 'message' creed is a false Gospel that Jesus had his second coming in 1914.The problem with this is it's not just a cute fairy tale,Jesus warned of the false prophets who would claim "..look he is here in the wilderness,or see here he is at the temple."
C) Their anti-blood transfusion ban against *whole blood* has killed thousands.
D) once they recruit you they will "love bomb" you in cult fashion to also recruit your family & friends or cut them off.
----
Danny Haszard Jehovah's Witness X 33 years http://www.dannyhaszard.com
Posted by: Mark | November 5, 2009 6:50 AM
I can't wait to see the first malpractice suit.
Posted by: Jud
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November 5, 2009 7:10 AM
This "Christian Science counting as medical treatment is the entering wedge of craziness" stuff is more than a decade late, 'cause Medicare in the U.S. has paid for such "treatment" for at least that long. And yes, as some people hypothesized, surely thinking they were being outlandish, Medicare actually pays different amounts for different "levels" of treatment. (I really dunno if they supposedly pray harder, or what the distinctions are.)
The Kerry-Hatch connection is because the Medicare payment law was brought to us by Sen. Ted Kennedy (the C.S. Mother Church being in his state), and Kerry and Hatch are perhaps including it in health reform as a joint memorial to their late friend.
Posted by: Chris Lamb | November 5, 2009 7:57 AM
In the UK, when you fill out the form to apply for a full passport, you have to get your photograph counter-signed by "an upstanding member of the community" examples it gives are Doctor, Policemen, Business Owner or... a "Christian Scientist"
Posted by: Ewan R | November 5, 2009 8:22 AM
"B) Their 'message' creed is a false Gospel that Jesus had his second coming in 1914.The problem with this is it's not just a cute fairy tale,Jesus warned of the false prophets who would claim "..look he is here in the wilderness,or see here he is at the temple."
So unlike the other gospels... how?
Posted by: Richard Eis | November 5, 2009 8:50 AM
exjehovah you already posted this and I pointed out that what they do is what every other religion does. Religions are just cookie cutters of each other. Parodies of parodies all the while oblivious to the fact that each religion and it's "gospels" disproves the others.
Posted by: Josh L | November 5, 2009 10:07 AM
I believe the law is discriminatory with respect to education in my state.
If you want to home school your kids you must have a 4 year degree or have a teaching certificate. You must annually file an approved curriculum, meet the state's standards of learning. You have to be overseen and approved. You have to file notices and push paperwork.
Or you could show up without all that, without even a high school degree and you can put your semi-literate scrawl next to the box that says religion. And never have to file anything again.
You are also not allowed to object to the school system for "essentially political, sociological or philosophical views or a merely personal moral code" it has to be religous... Seriously religion is treated as more important than your own mind of judgement.
Way to put an even burden down and not establish religion state of Virginia.
Posted by: Steven Mading
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November 5, 2009 12:27 PM
It's the same strategy used by religious private schools to claim they do a better job of teaching than public schools do - put a strong selection bias on the population of students allowed to come into the school (whereas a public school has no choice and must take in everybody) and then claim credit for the resulting difference in output that was 100% caused by this selection bias in input. The selection bias is that parents who don't care won't bother with doing anything but the default, and therefore 100% of the students coming from families that don't care about school are going to be in the public schools. (It's not that private schools have better good students than public school good students. It's that private schools don't have to average their good students' results with bad students' results because only public schools are forced to take on the bad students.)
Posted by: radcs | November 5, 2009 1:17 PM
I am a practicing Christian Scientist and my family has successfully relied on spiritual healing for five generations now. My intent in posting this comment is not to “pitch” my preferred system of healing to those who depend on other types of health care, but to explain why I feel it is important that there be a provision for spiritual healing in any forthcoming healthcare legislation.
It would seem fundamentally unfair for someone to be required to pay for insurance that does not cover the type of healthcare he or she utilizes. In a policy climate where some form of mandated universal coverage appears likely, it would only seem fair that anyone required to pay into a system would have coverage for the type of health care that they have found works best for them (without depriving anyone else of their choices). If the individual mandate to buy insurance does not provide for those who rely on qualifying spiritual care, they may receive no benefit for their premiums.
While Christian Scientists normally choose a path other than conventional medicine, this choice is not based on blind faith. It instead reflects a systematic approach to prayer that has proven to be reliable and effective in the lives of those who practice it.
Regarding the question as to why Christian Science practitioners charge for prayer, it should be pointed out that the Christian Science practice is a full time ministry for these individuals (and they have made a formal committment not to divide their attention between their healing work and other types of employment). Just as many churches have paid clergy (which the Christian Science church does not have), it seems only right that full-time practitioners be compensated for their work. On the other hand, I don't know of any CS practitioner who would turn away a patient who has no means to pay for treatment, and many practitioners devote a significant portion of their time to this "benevolence" work.
I appreciate this opportunity to provide a different perspective on this issue. Anyone interested in learning more about Christian Science healing may wish to check out the website www.ChristianScience.com.
Posted by: Steven Mading | November 5, 2009 2:54 PM
There's a few errors in your post. Let me give you some proofreading help:
You may think I've been too harsh with you. I haven't. You are promoting a dishonest pile of bullshit that, if it was believed by more people, would destroy a lot of human knowledge that took centuries to develop, and set us back to the suffering of the middle ages, where when a plague ravages through the land, nobody has any clue what to do to stop it.
Posted by: em-dub | November 5, 2009 5:11 PM
http://tnbs.wordpress.com/
I couldn't help but laugh. I Googled TNBS, and the above bible group was listed. We administer TNBS to rats' colons to induce something very similar to inflammatory bowel disease.
Posted by: Injun Trouble | November 5, 2009 7:12 PM
Now you've got Blue Cross/Blue Shield and Holy Cross/Panty Shield for insurance coverage. We're all fucking doomed.
Posted by: TheoDoersing | November 5, 2009 7:39 PM
@ radcs:
I'm interested to understand what you mean by
"...this choice [alternative prayer medicine] is not based on blind faith. It instead reflects a systematic approach to prayer that has proven to be reliable and effective in the lives of those who practice it."
What systematic steps are taken (and in what specific order) to successfully complete prayers using this "systematic approach"?
Are there nuances or special skills required for all prayers or is it different for the specific circumstances of every prayer and the person doing the praying?
What is the "systematic approach" success rate compared to prayer offered by believers to deities of other religions?
What is its success rate versus all other denominations of Christianity?
Do they actually pay people in your religion to sit down and think about this stupid shit?
I'm sorry, but you make it sound like your special rain-dance works better than everyone else's voodoo.
I'm surprised your family has survived through five generations of this skullduggery. That is probably more of a testament to modern science, its prolonging of life and health on average in health-minded socities that use antibiotics and specialists dedicated to making life better in general.
using that are not utilized in common or unprofessional prayers?
What, precisely, is the difference
Posted by: TheoDoersing | November 5, 2009 7:45 PM
Oops. I framboozled the last part of my comment there.
I was getting around to asking "What precisely is the difference between your professional prayers and everyone else's novice groveling?
Posted by: Marcus B. | November 5, 2009 8:15 PM
@radcs:
I'm curious - what do you have to say about cases like the 15-month-old who died from treatable pneumonia when her parents prayed instead of seeking medical attention?
http://www.kiiitv.com/news/religion/48158432.html
Or 11-year-old Kara Neumann who died from diabetes when her parents prayed instead of seeking medical attention?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Neumann
Or the 16-year-old who died from a treatable urinary tract infection after choosing to pray instead of seeking medical attention?
http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/health/May-June-08/Boy-Dies-After-Choosing-Prayer-Over-Medicine.html
Or the 4-year-old boy who died of pneumonia in Australia, since, as the mother said, "her children had never received medical treatment as she believed God would heal them."
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/mother-who-let-son-die-controlled-by-husband/2008/11/14/1226318902982.html
Do you, in the light of cases like that, think that it is responsible to actually encourage people to believe that prayer is an effective way of treating illness? I've just chosen some cases of children here, because that's what's most gruesome, but you know as well as I do that there are a lot of adults who could be added to that list too. Isn't that in part because people like you run around claiming that prayer is so effective that it has a place on a health care bill?
Posted by: GravityIsJustATheory | November 6, 2009 9:39 AM
What do they mean "trained prayer practitioners"? Doesn't the almighty accept prayer from anyone?
Obviously they mean higher-level clerics who can cast the better healing spells.
What would be the point of employing a level 1 newbie who can only cast Clure Light Wounds once per day?
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | November 6, 2009 9:55 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, let me present a fine example of post hoc ergo propter hoc
Posted by: katydid13 | November 6, 2009 10:04 AM
Didn't W's brother try this in Florida?
I'm a very liberal Christian and I think this unconstitutional, bad public policy, and other bad things.
And Christian Scientists, are an embarrasment.
Posted by: Robin L. | November 6, 2009 4:41 PM
How is his prison going to handle unrepentant Christian terrorists, the ones bombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors? Maybe the answer for people driven by Christianity to commit their crimes isn't more Christianity.