Pharyngula

Posted by: Squigit | November 5, 2009 8:33 AM

This has got to be some kind of joke. Right?

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | November 5, 2009 8:34 AM

Ouch, braincramp. The illogic and stupidity just never ends. Augh, and before coffee too. *shakes fist in general direction of Morris, MN*

Posted by: Valdyr | November 5, 2009 8:38 AM

"In no other domain of science do critical voices come under as impertinent and vehement attack as in this particular domain of research."

Go ahead and try to get "Intelligent Particles" taught in physics class or go to a geologist and tell him or her with a straight face that you believe earthquakes are caused by human sin and that this view needs to be presented in schools. I guarantee you you'll get the same kind of "impertinent and vehement attack"--the kind reserved for people who are behaving in a manner which is fucking stupid.

Do creationists honestly not realize that they're criticized not merely because they're religious, but because they HAVE NO SCIENCE OR EVIDENCE?!

Posted by: Menno | November 5, 2009 8:42 AM

Hrm, so that's where the 95 silly arguments against evolution come from that have been polluting the Dutch blogosphere...

Also, go to www.0095.info and look at where the (only) link brings you.. that's right, our friends at the Discovery Institute! How unexpected...

Posted by: cathy | November 5, 2009 8:44 AM

My legs aren't even the same length, does that mean I was made by Satan?

Apparantly, they also missed their history lessons. Da Vinci believed that proportionality was the essence of beauty (a notion picked up by the greeks) and that beauty lied in perfection. Never did Da Vinci assert that all people are nice and proportionate, he just thought that the ones who weren't were the ugly ones.

Posted by: Scott H | November 5, 2009 8:50 AM

"I think that if you do a lot of drugs, that will make sense."

Clearly, I've done the wrong drugs. I want what they're having.

Posted by: eddie | November 5, 2009 8:52 AM

Many many crackpot index points here:

Using "come under" rather than 'come across' or 'come over',
The catholics oppressed galileo ->> goddidit,
The basic mistake of calling the golden ratio a 'perfect square'.

The "...all apprear to be perfectly engineered..." is possibly the stupidest thing here. You'd have to be actively not actually looking at things to not see the poorly botched hacks in nature.

And finally, the "...innumerable facts clearly contradict the theory...": Name just one. I dare you.

Posted by: Mike in Ontario, NY | November 5, 2009 8:56 AM

With all due respect PZ, I've taken many a drug in my day, and that "reasoning" does not, and never will, make one little bit of sense. Maybe some LSD would make me laugh a LOT harder at teh stoopit, though.

Posted by: Coturnix | November 5, 2009 9:00 AM

The finger is designed to best hold the banana, of course....

Posted by: jcaps | November 5, 2009 9:05 AM

from Insightful Ape @9
"Are creationists getting stupider by the day, or by the hour?"

It's a logarithmic scale. If my calculations, which I did in my head, are correct, will reach the peak, or trough depending on how you look at it, of stupidity on December 21, 2012. And we all know what will happen in 2012?

Posted by: J. A. Baker | November 5, 2009 9:23 AM

Argument by humans are designed because Fuck you?

Probably the most awesomely nonsensical wingnut argument since "Shut up, that's why!"

Posted by: wheatdogg | November 5, 2009 9:27 AM

You mean, it isn't the perfect size and shape of the banana that proves Creation? I'm confused now ...

Posted by: Queue | November 5, 2009 9:28 AM

I love the insistence that we have "perfect" features. Human eyes are fragile, they can fall victim to all kinds of infections and degenerative diseases, they require complex neurological wiring to function properly, and can only see a tiny fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum. What is so perfect about that?

Note to Creationists: Man is not the measure of all things! The universe is bigger and more amazing than your tiny little minds can comprehend.

Posted by: Sean Craven | November 5, 2009 9:40 AM

Speaking as someone with a bit of art training, da Vinci's Vitruvian man is, well...

Misproportioned. Abnormal. Atypical. Not representative of the shape of the species.

This was an idealized image based on architectural principles of Vitruvius rather than on observation. It is, like God, imaginary. If you were to look high and low throughout the human world, you might be able to find a few dudes who had these proportions. They'd look a little freaky.

So this statement is much more nonsensical than it appears on the surface. Just so you know.

Posted by: kopd | November 5, 2009 9:41 AM

Perfect eyes?! Perfect ears?! What are these people smoking*? Many animals have much better eyes or ears or both than we do. Hell, I don't even have average eyes and ears for a human. The development of our eyes and ears is prone to defect.

* Funny story. A former coworker from several years ago once told me that when she was younger her and some friends needed paper to roll a joint so they used a blank page from the back of a bible. If I had been an out atheist at the time, or not had so many coworkers around at the time I would have told her that was probably the best use for any page in that book (except maybe some in Ecclesiastes).

Posted by: Tulse | November 5, 2009 9:53 AM

"Perfect eyes"? Sure, tell that to a squid and it will laugh at you. I don't care what they say, I won't have "perfect eyes" until my photoreceptors point toward the light in front of the blood vessels and supporting material, and are sensitive to ultraviolet, infrared, and polarization.

Oh yeah, and until I'm not myopic and astigmatic.

And until human eyes generally are not susceptible to the horrors of river blindness. And macular degeneration. And glaucoma. And detached retinas. And...

Posted by: Nyarlathotep | November 5, 2009 10:04 AM

"With all due respect PZ, I've taken many a drug in my day, and that "reasoning" does not, and never will, make one little bit of sense. Maybe some LSD would make me laugh a LOT harder at teh stoopit, though."

I second this, and invite PZ to join me for an evening of smoking too much pot, eating too many mushrooms and watching Cosmos/taking a trip to the Science Center/do some late night stargazing. I think you'll be surprised by the terrifying clarity of thought that such chemical cocktails can grant you.

Posted by: Janine The Ineffable, OM | November 5, 2009 10:09 AM

My perfect ears are waiting for the ragweed season to end so that they are no longer filled with fluids. Nothing like the sloshing to interfere with it's perfect function.

And I will say no more about the glasses I have to wear. Nor anymore about my back which caused me great pain last year.

But if the universe was designed for us, why is it so hard for humans to escape the Earth gravity and why must they wear suits that contain the air and heat they need?

The pamphlet deserves a double middle finger.

Posted by: lordshipmayhem | November 5, 2009 10:11 AM

Are creationists getting stupider by the day, or by the hour?

Why yes, yes they are. You needed to ask?

It comes from giving reality "the finger" as seen in the above tract or whatever the heck it is.

Posted by: Barb | November 5, 2009 10:25 AM

Wow!

Da Vinci drew the human body like that to show it's proportions, not to make some sort of deepity.

There are many such ways of keeping your drawings in proportion known to artists. My favorite is taking the ball of the hand and placing it on the bottom of the chin. Stretch the hand over the face to the hairline (unless you have receding hair, or, a very large nose) and that gives the proper hand to face ratio. It also gives the extreme facepalm that this middle finger deepity deserves.

Posted by: mjones | November 5, 2009 10:26 AM

Whenever they start talking about human dignity I roll my eyes since they would have you believe we were made from dirt, and have no worth unless we grovel before their angry bloodthirsty god. If we are not willing to do that we will writhe in pain for all eternity as we deserve.

Well, fuck that! Oh wait, the middle finger does represent human dignity!

Posted by: Alyson Miers | November 5, 2009 10:30 AM

I'm waiting for my perfect immune system to stop picking fights with pollen, dust, mold spores and animal dander, so that I can live in the world during the autumn, and visit friends with cats without having to take drugs to keep my nasal passages from taking over my existence.

I'm also waiting for my perfect uterus to knock it off with this "shed the lining" bullshit every month so I can stop losing nutrients, suffering cramps and containing the mess every time I refuse to get knocked up. Meanwhile, my friends with babies would like to thank their perfect hormonal processes during pregnancy for not making them puke...oh, wait.

My perfect teeth and gums, meanwhile, would be very considerate to stop letting gunk get trapped in the nooks and crannies where I must forcibly remove it in order to prevent inflammation, infection and bone loss.

Also, I'd greatly appreciate it if my perfectly designed/engineered metabolism would stop protecting me from imminent famine when abundant calories lurk behind every corner.

And don't get me started on that perfect blood circulation to my extremities, particularly the feet.

Posted by: locklin | November 5, 2009 10:33 AM

Perfect eyes, perfect ears, perfect human hands?

Most eyes need glasses by half a lifetime, ears are easily damaged by moderately loud noise or pressure change, and hands are big, fat, squishy implements with limited range of motion -defiantly not the "perfect" implement for manipulating objects (hence, why we need to use so many tools).

I have always loved the eye argument, as a vision researcher I could write a book on all the stupid problems with eyes. I've never heard the ears and hands version of that argument, but they are just as preposterous.

Posted by: sven | November 5, 2009 10:37 AM

i do lots of drugs and it still doesn't make sense

Posted by: Monimonika | November 5, 2009 10:40 AM

Attempt at deciphering the intent:

Left-Top:
-Introduces the theme:
"Critical assessment (a.k.a. our noble/beautiful quest for Truth) of ideas accepted long ago" is being ridiculed.
-Dig at RCC.
-Gives info on where to supposedly find the 95 arguments against evolution.
((I personally read this panel last because I was more interested in the middle finger and the Vitruvian Man.))

Right-Top:
Middle finger picture is used to capture initial attention to poster.

Left-Bottom:
Segue from asking middle finger's meaning, to middle finger's involvement in Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man, to the apparent "perfect" proportions of men.

Right-Bottom:
Mentioning of middle finger as traditionally being considered vulgar and then placing the blame of this "misrepresentation" on fallible humans from long ago.
Also somewhat connects with the theme introduced in the Left-Top panel.
(vulgar = not worthy of respect = ridiculous = dismissible)

The human body is too proportional to circle/squares (I guess they imagine God holding a pair of compasses, straight ruler, and/or protractor when He created Adam) to not have been designed. (Apparently, the holy purpose of middle fingers is so that God can fit men into circles/squares.)
Also, classic argument of "complexity = design = designer" and the assumption that human eyes and such are God's Most Perfect Creations. And scientists are idiots.

Analogy Clincher: "Long ago accepted ideas = False"
- Holy middle finger is vulgar body part = False
- Evolution/Big Bang = False
- RCC doctrine in Middle Ages = False (implied)
Again asserts that facts against science exists.

Posted by: Ewan R | November 5, 2009 10:57 AM

I have to say I'm sold. I cant think of any reason why the capacity to fit into a circle and a square at the same time would have a selective advantage, therefore evolution is wrong. Apparently I've wasted a good 50% of my life obsessing about a falacy. Damn.

This isnt an arguement from personal incredulity by the by - the guy in the next cube over couldnt think of a reason either.

Posted by: Thornae | November 5, 2009 11:14 AM

First up, @Monimonika #50: It's a scan of a pamphlet. The top right image is the cover, and meant to shock you into reading the rest of it. The top left is actually the last page.

Second, has anyone else tried to download that supposed list of 95 theses? The link on the page (which, as previously noted, goes to the Discovery institute) only leads to that tired old list of scientists who supposedly disagree with evolution...

I was going to read their list to have a laugh, but I don't think I'll waste any more time trying to find it.

Posted by: Monimonika | November 5, 2009 11:28 AM

Thornae @#54,

Ah, thanks for the explanation. I was a bit confused by the layout.

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 5, 2009 11:49 AM

And we all know what will happen in 2012?

Actually, it's 2220, because the current interpretation of Maya chronology is 208 years off according to the astronomer Andreas Fuls (link in German) who calculated when certain astronomical events recorded by the Maya could have taken place.

Speaking as someone with a bit of art training, da Vinci's Vitruvian man is, well...
Misproportioned. Abnormal. Atypical. Not representative of the shape of the species.

Good catch! His arms hang down almost to his knees!!!

Was da Vinci trying to make fun of something?

Actually, that particular finger means "4" if you are counting in binary. http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/unisex/generic/6a20/

So… ingenious…

Posted by: SEF | November 5, 2009 12:26 PM

@ jcaps #20:

And we all know what will happen in 2012?

The UK will host the olympics in London (mostly). The last vestiges of proper terrestrial broadcast TV will get turned off in whichever UK region is the last to go (I haven't been keeping track of the order!). Probably a bunch of other stuff too ...

Posted by: Rick R | November 5, 2009 12:33 PM

All your examples of real world problems with eyes/ ears won't sway these people one bit.
If religiots can read the bible and see the god in there as "good" and worship it (to avoid its wrath in hell) then of course the kludgy human eye and ear (and back and immune system etc.) are "perfect, just perfect!"

The god they worship seems a lot like that kid in that Twilight Zone episode "It's a Good Life". Perfect isn't defined by anything else other than "what god makes". Genocide? Rape? Slavery? If god does it, "why, it's a real good thing you done there, a REAL good thing!"

Apparently, thinking like this will make you a special, moral person.

Posted by: October Mermaid | November 5, 2009 12:49 PM

This seems like it was more meant to soothe the nervous minds of doubting believers, rather than winning over anyone who hasn't already dipped their brain in Jesus juice.

I know what those people want because I was one of them for a while. They just want a lot of words, spoken with certainty, and a vague whiff of something scientific. Anything for them to relax and say "See? There you go. They wouldn't say this if it weren't true. I mean, come on. If something like that weren't true, they'd be ashamed of themselves for passing it off to us. So it must be true. I feel better now!"

I imagine their next pamphlet will say something like "The fact that the human mind is capable of conceiving God proves that God exists. The fact that atheists and heathens are able to imagine no God is because our lord allows them free choice."

Posted by: Virgil | November 5, 2009 1:55 PM

So the actual origin of the middle finger gesture (so I was taught) was the wars between the English and the French. The French used cross-bows, which are slow to load and cumbersome. The English used lighter, faster long-bows, which are pulled by the middle finger, and so when the English won (naturally), they taunted the French by waving their middle fingers at them. Of course, the French retaliated by taunting the English, in the movie Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Posted by: kopd | November 5, 2009 2:08 PM

Wileydog:

That list has been dissected a few times. A lot (most?) of the people on it have nothing to do with biology at all. And of course, they were taking advantage of people's intellectual honesty as any respectable scientist should careful examination of evidence should be encouraged. Despicable creationist tactics. Project Steve was a pretty cool response, though.

Posted by: Qwerty | November 5, 2009 3:03 PM

Ah, my eyes water from pollen and don't mist up from reading creationist pabulum.

Thanks for the Jerry Coyne link. If only I could convince my creationist sister to think more critically as Coyne suggested. It's bad enough she believes in a 6,000 year old earth, but lately, I found out she is also anti-vaccination. Ahhhh!!!

Posted by: wileydog | November 5, 2009 3:31 PM

So I just went through and emailed everyone on the list at U of Idaho, Wash St Univ, and Univ of Wash. More than half of them did not hold a position as published at the time of publication. I've already heard back from one who said that he was not aware his name was being used to advance young earth creationist ideas. His actual email is

"Thanks for the heads up. I am not an advocate of young earth Biblical creationism. I am an advocate of underlying design (true design) in living systems and also a strong advocate of evolution and the role of mutation and natural selection. I would be happy to discuss this with you at any time. I think Steve Meyer's new book Signature of the Cell is a good synopsis of current ID thought."

I have not read this book, but the summaries I have found sound like it is saying, "god created RNA and evolution did the rest". I don't know how a xian reconciles that with "god created adam and eve", but I think I will read the book and maybe find out. I seem to do this sort of thing a lot, kind of a "know thy enemy" approach to selecting my reading.

Posted by: Rolan le Gargéac | November 5, 2009 3:48 PM

Tom #63

Shorter 0095: If you don't believe in creationism then fuck you.

Thanks Tom ! That really made me larf !

Posted by: Barb | November 5, 2009 5:06 PM

Monimonika@51

"*tries this with own hand and face*
Dammit! I only get to a little less than halfway up my forehead. My nose isn't large, and my hairline's only a bit higher than average (I think), so it must be my stubby fingers. I wear kid gloves due to my fingers being so stubby."

Maybe you aren't doing it right? Bend your hand out like you are going to blow a kiss. Place the bend on the bottom (not under) your chin. When you stretch your hand over your face, smash your nose a bit. It should reach to the tip of the hair line. If it doesn’t your hands (like you said) or face might be out of the normal range.

Posted by: Aphanes | November 5, 2009 6:41 PM

It's also a well known fact (although facts aren't usually utilised in the same spirit by creationists) that Da Vinci had to distort the human figure used to create the figure shown. If you look at it, it looks correct, but in fact, to make it fit, the arms fitting to the square and fitting to the circle are actually different lengths. Simple maths using Pythagoras or a ruler will easily show this. Maybe Da Vinci was giving the finger via his drawing to non-mathematicians and creationists and the non-visually aware?

Posted by: Caine | November 5, 2009 7:48 PM

Wow. So, it's flippin' dignity now? I'd like to see them try out that explanation on a cop.

Posted by: seaotter | November 5, 2009 9:05 PM

Of course I can read it silly, I have perfect eyes.

Posted by: TheoDoersing | November 5, 2009 11:52 PM

It's my theory that 10,000 years ago the creationists were the assholes on top of the pyramids ripping open their victims chest cavities and cutting off their heads to put on sticks to impress the idiot god/s they created in their image.

At least all creationists can do nowadays is lie and annoy the hell out of you as they waste your time and patience. Maybe raise your blood pressure a little bit.

Posted by: John Scanlon, FCD | November 6, 2009 6:14 AM

Virgil #66,
the English longbow is pulled with two (or three) fingers, and the gesture of defiance to which that story relates (whether true or apocryphal) is the two-finger 'V' later adopted by Churchill, not the single digitus impudicus. The two-finger gesture was standard in my Australian and British schooldays, and familiar long before I learned of the middle-finger one. It's partly a dialect thing, and they have also diverged (if they were ever synonymous) such that the middle finger is hardly serious at all (though flipping it at an amphetamine-dealing biker at the end of a pool comp is still a bad idea), while the 'V' is really asking for a fight.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | November 6, 2009 8:39 AM

the English longbow is pulled with two (or three) fingers, and the gesture of defiance to which that story relates (whether true or apocryphal) is the two-finger 'V' later adopted by Churchill, not the single digitus impudicus. The two-finger gesture was standard in my Australian and British schooldays, and familiar long before I learned of the middle-finger one. It's partly a dialect thing, and they have also diverged (if they were ever synonymous) such that the middle finger is hardly serious at all (though flipping it at an amphetamine-dealing biker at the end of a pool comp is still a bad idea), while the 'V' is really asking for a fight.

Being the American that I am, I never knew about this until I watched "The Young Ones" for the first time.

Posted by: rwtwm | November 6, 2009 12:29 PM

@#12 & #16:
Indeed, quite a few drugs haven't deaded my brain enough either.

they have deaded #48 to the curse of the double post though

Posted by: the human michael | November 7, 2009 7:56 PM

i do copious amounts of drugs, and this is ridiculous. my arm span is 2 inches greater than would be ideal :(

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | November 7, 2009 9:10 PM

I can't reach my hairline either, but it has receded to the back of my head.