Pharyngula

Posted by: JG | December 4, 2009 12:40 PM

Boggles the mind...

Posted by: Glen Davidson | December 4, 2009 12:45 PM

See, the scientists are ganging up on that nice Growing Pains boy. And you know, of all of them, only he goes to church, too.

I'm sure Mike just wants the godless scientists to be fair.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

Posted by: Zifnab | December 4, 2009 12:48 PM

Who you gonna believe?

That said, Kirk is really just the face of a movement that has an army of righteous true believers and millions of dollars devoted purely to propaganda built into it.

You're not really arguing with the Growing Pains co-star. You're arguing with rich idiots and their money.

Posted by: Carlie | December 4, 2009 12:49 PM

PZ, keep this up and soon my facebook page will be nothing but repostings from Pharyngula.

Wow, there's a sentence that would have been incomprehensible 15 years ago.

Posted by: Jay | December 4, 2009 12:50 PM

haha! Thanks, I had a good laugh.

Posted by: Jean-François Bélisle | December 4, 2009 12:52 PM

Why did they make Kirk Cameron bigger in the background? Typical!

Posted by: Carlie | December 4, 2009 12:54 PM

Cimourdain:

He's the kid famous for this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr6gczqM8fo

who now does this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfucpGCm5hY

Posted by: F | December 4, 2009 1:04 PM

Kirk is more Impy than Chimpy, certainly. He must be the evil Kirk from the parallel universe.

Posted by: CanonicalKoi | December 4, 2009 1:09 PM

@#12 You're too late. She's already proclaimed herself an expert on curing cancer. According to her, chemo's over-used and, along with radiation therapy and surgery, just bring the body "down". All you really need is to eat and drink the right stuff and think happy thoughts. She's also a great believer in mistletoe extract--nothing like decrying chemo as "poisons" while swilling down another poison, but nobody said she had to be consistent. Or smart. Or well-informed or educated or....

That kind of circles right back around to Kirk "Banana Boy" Cameron, doesn't it?

Posted by: Meph | December 4, 2009 1:12 PM

http://www.theonion.com/content/radionews
"Church Canceled Due To Lack Of God"

Hah! I love The Onion!

Posted by: Watoosh | December 4, 2009 1:16 PM

This is a case of divinely inspired synchronicity right here, I tells ya. The moment I opened Facebook to see this update from The Onion, I suspected that PZ might seize on it - and I'm glad he did.

Posted by: MrFire | December 4, 2009 1:22 PM

Kirk does have a secret weapon.

He can sit backwards on a chair.

Posted by: davej | December 4, 2009 1:24 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5J0cSnYnFg

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 4, 2009 1:30 PM

Is it possible to stop the merger of SB with NatGeo and instead merge SB with The Onion?

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | December 4, 2009 1:33 PM

People love stories, and one of our favorite motifs is the little guy whom nobody expected much of, defeating powerful enemies. Another favorite theme is that of a good heart and gentle kindness being more important than intelligence or experience. Put them together, mix it up with religion, and people find this headline plausible, realistic -- and exciting. Oooh, that could be me! Show me how I know more than the eminent smarty-pants biologists, because I have common sense and love for God, too -- and all they've got is their crummy expertise.

I've always been more partial to the "Rag-Tag Group of Misfits Pull Together and Use the Very Quirks that Make Them Outcasts to Defeat the Snobby Country Club Kids at the August Regatta and End Up Saving Camp Makorbrakya from the Evil Soulless Developers" theme, and I think it could work to our advantage. Let's see how the papers play up the "Biologist on a Small College Teacher's Salary takes on Former Child $tar Funded by Jim Baker's Heirs" angle.

It's either that, or the next panel PZ participates in he should sweep into the room and loudly proclaim that "Nobody puts Eugenie in a corner!"

Posted by: Vanessa | December 4, 2009 1:40 PM

Next week: 3 eminent virologists and a chick who posed for Playboy weigh in on the safety and efficacy of vaccination.

Posted by: DrClown | December 4, 2009 1:45 PM

Hey I think TV's Blossom went on to became a a geneticist

Posted by: Blondin | December 4, 2009 1:47 PM

It's either that, or the next panel PZ participates in he should sweep into the room and loudly proclaim that "Nobody puts Eugenie in a corner!"

FTW! That visual is too freakin' funny.

Posted by: Qwerty | December 4, 2009 2:03 PM

From Brownian OM @ 29

"It's either that, or the next panel PZ participates in he should sweep into the room and loudly proclaim that 'Nobody puts Eugenie in a corner!'"

Brownian OM - You must have picked up "Dirty Dancing (Ultimate Edition)" on black Friday!

Posted by: Valdyr | December 4, 2009 2:09 PM

"How is it possible that the US has many of the world's leading Universities, more Nobel prizes, more patents and peer reviewed articles than any other be the same country where approximately 45% of the population believes in creationism?

Boggles the mind indeed."

In a country like the US with a massive income gap, those from upper middle-class families are going to have the chance to get a lot more educated, and those from lower class families are going to have the chance to get a lot more dumber, than in some other countries with more equal distributions of wealth.

Posted by: MadScientist | December 4, 2009 2:20 PM

@Zifnab #5: I object to the "rich idiots and their money". The vast majority of people (sheeple?) who are fleeced haven't got much money but likely share the same delusion and believe they're doing some good by giving their money to the pompous sanctimonious egomaniacs.

Posted by: uppity cracka | December 4, 2009 2:22 PM

holy crap. this place is great. the damn comments are funnier than the damn post.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | December 4, 2009 2:32 PM

In a country like the US with a massive income gap, those from upper middle-class families are going to have the chance to get a lot more educated, and those from lower class families are going to have the chance to get a lot more dumber, than in some other countries with more equal distributions of wealth.

While I generally buy this is part of the dynamic, one of the things that truly mystifies (and saddens) me is phenomena like megachurches in relatively affluent burbs, and private Christian schools that teach bronze-age-to-mediaeval cosmologies but which still have non-trivial tuition fees...

There's all kinds of sad about that... I mean, let's get this straight: somehow you managed to get yerself into some slot or other in the middle class, either by work or luck or some of each, and honestly, these days, that's hardly something you can count on...

And you're still insisting both on being a dumbfuck and doing your best to doom your child to be the same?

I mean, what is that, honestly? Poverty and desperation, those are some kind of excuse, sure. But the sweater-wearing minivan-driving types, it seems too much to me like having been given a decent chance, and still blowing it.

Posted by: tsg | December 4, 2009 2:44 PM

They send their kids to terribly expensive private Christian schools where one year's tuition is about equivalent to one year's tuition at a state university. It's appalling how much money they spend on such short-sighted - and hello, WRONG - education.

I would like to say, "Well, they won't be needing it for college because their uneducated kid won't get in," but I know all too well it doesn't work that way.

Posted by: Glen Davidson | December 4, 2009 2:46 PM

It's the same story here:

http://www.americanfreedomalliance.org/microsite/darwindebates/press3.htm

A scientist and a skeptic, Prothero and Shermer, "debate" two people who play science while doing apologetics, the appalling Sternberg and Meyer.

How it actually comes out PR-wise, I don't know, since I haven't listened to it yet. On the science score, I have a pretty good idea.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

Posted by: DJ | December 4, 2009 3:06 PM

Carlie @7,

I too find myself putting a lot of pharyngula on my facebook page. I don't have to look far and wide for the fun stuff as it usually ends up here.

Posted by: cylusys | December 4, 2009 3:14 PM

@#45 and #46

Perhaps your noticing the phenomenon generally known as 'Its not what you know, its who you know'.
Given the social environment of your average church I can see the possibility that the middle class kids in those areas could get their well paid jobs based more on the perceived piety of their parents than any actual qualifications.

Posted by: Kevin | December 4, 2009 3:38 PM

@Vanessa:

I must stop visiting this site during work hours, this is the second time I've almost found myself laughing my head off at something here.

Good show.

Posted by: Matt Heath | December 4, 2009 3:56 PM

AJ Milne@#45: I think part of what's going on there is the way income inequality makes peoples lives stressful and unpleasant eve quite near the top of scale (anxiety about losing your position in a strict hierarchy, the people above one look down on you). There's masses of data about how unequal societies produce health social problems hurting even the upper-middle classes (and maybe the super-rich although they are too few to get reliable figures on), in a book called "The Spirit Level" by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett. It's also a good read.

Also, I heard of another bit of research on Radio 4 that the religiouisty of countries is specifically corralated to inequality (there are ouliers like Britain, but it holds in statistically significant way). I guess even rich Americans turn to religion for comfort. "The heart in a heartless world, the soul of the soulless condition..."

Posted by: AdamK | December 4, 2009 4:06 PM

It's so sad when child actors wind up mentally ill and morally degraded.

Posted by: DaveH_of_Lundun | December 4, 2009 4:13 PM

A little OT, but I was curious about something (is there an upper bound to temperature?) which led me to this page.

Scroll down to comment 4...

It's a classic, I promise.

Posted by: raven | December 4, 2009 4:24 PM

...private Christian schools that teach bronze-age-to-mediaeval cosmologies but which still have non-trivial tuition fees...

Won't do them any good. According to the SBC, 7 out of 10 of their kids end up leaving the church when they can.

And it isn't the norm. Fundies and creos on average end up at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder. They score high in social problems like divorce, abortion, teen age pregrancy, drugs and alcohol, and so on.

The average fundie probaby isn't an ignorant broke drunk moron, but they are closer to that than the general population.

Posted by: Marcus Ranum | December 4, 2009 4:50 PM

I've always been more partial to the "Rag-Tag Group of Misfits Pull Together and Use the Very Quirks that Make Them Outcasts to Defeat the Snobby Country Club Kids at the August Regatta and End Up Saving Camp Makorbrakya from the Evil Soulless Developers" theme

Trust in the force, Luke!

Posted by: wrpd | December 4, 2009 5:17 PM

Cameronsnipples: I have it on good authority* that Kirk's nipples were accidentally bitten off by Ray Comfort during a hot, intense, um, bible study.
*Respect my authoritah!

Posted by: Rick R | December 4, 2009 7:01 PM

This is all well and good, but I'm still waiting for PZ to debate The Fonz™.

"Biology: Cool or Un?"

Posted by: amphiox | December 4, 2009 8:28 PM

"I mean the banana argument proved God created us...somehow."

Well, let's see now. The theory of evolution makes the prediction that natural selection should weed out maladaptive traits, and that no organisms should possess traits that solely benefit others at a detriment to itself.

That this level of utter stupidity only seems to benefit others, by providing amusement, while offer no readily identifiable benefit to the individual, it would seem that Darwinism is at a loss to explain how Ray Comfort could possibly have evolved.

Ergo, Ray Comfort must have been unintelligently designed.

Ergo, there is a god. But this god seems sympathetic to scientists and atheists, seeing as how he takes time to create things like Ray Comfort to amuse us.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | December 4, 2009 9:37 PM

#57:

That actually has the ring of a plausible explanation about it. Might have to look up that text at some point.

I seem also to recalling hearing somewhere that there's some association between the megachurch phenomena and the 'prosperity gospel' bit. Which I'd suspect in a stratified society might also have some appeal for the wealthy.

(/... As in, they're conveniently telling their better-heeled patrons: yeah, sure, you're rich in a country filled with misery, but don't sweat it... the god apparently wants it that way.)

Posted by: Rachel Bronwyn | December 5, 2009 2:41 AM

Brian May hasn't demonstrated extreme misunderstanding and twisted logic in the field of his expertise.

His being a former "entertainer" (he really wasn't entertaining and was apparently an enormous pain in the ass on-set) isn't what's funny. It's Cameron's absolute lack of understanding AND credentials to make the statements he does that are being laughed at.

A layperson with a solid understanding won't recieve the same reverence someone with credentials in a particular field will. If they're intelligent though, they'll be taken seriously. Kirk is dumb and unqualified. And Americans LOVE him!

Posted by: amphiox | December 5, 2009 6:27 AM

"If a magazine cover said "3 experts in astronomy and Brian May from Queen" people might chuckle and think the same thing, yet Brian May has a doctorate in astrophysics."

That only means that the magazine cover is inaccurate, and should have said "FOUR experts in astronomy including Brian May from Queen."

Posted by: Ryan F | December 5, 2009 12:27 PM

I actually didn't find out until later that it was an Onion cover, and I do think it's funny. I just don't like the conclusion that because someone entertains, they be educated in other fields. Obviously doesn't apply to Kirk, just as a general matter.

Posted by: Dr. P | December 5, 2009 1:37 PM

I just don't like the conclusion that because someone entertains, they (can't) be educated in other fields. Obviously doesn't apply to Kirk, just as a general matter.

That conclusion was never made. However, if someone is arguing from authority without having any recognized expertise in the field and, further, screwing up basic concepts, why should thier argument be accepted at face value? And with the same weight as someone who has spent most of thier life in the field? The evidence for a person's education in the field will hopefully be the quality of thier contribution to the discussion. Sadly,when most celebrities weigh in on science topics it's often a painful thing to behold (in general).You know, like Suzanne Somers decrying oncologist's in-office supplies of chemotherapeutics as a conflict of interest as she sells vitamins and her book from her website.

Posted by: Kevin C. | December 5, 2009 6:51 PM

So true. Humanity constantly disappoints me. If they'll fall for this sort of crap, what won't they fall for? If they don't understand why this is b.s., what do they understand?

Obviously, you shouldn't blindly accept everything experts say, but thinking that Kirk Cameron is really someone qualified to debate renowned, PhD Biologists who've spent decades studying the science is pretty much the same as thinking those biologists are qualified to be Christian preachers. Actually, it's even worse because it takes significantly less training to become a qualified expert on Christianity.

Posted by: Mark | December 6, 2009 7:48 AM

Well, in all honesty Evolution has now been witnessed within a liftime. One way or another, you can't deny that it does exist! A bird in Europe has had significant biological changes over the last 30 years. Instead of flying south, some now fly north. The ones who fly north are believed to be adapting to climate change. The southern fliers breed together and likewise with the northern fliers. Over the last 30 years as this has been happening, the Northern flying birds' beaks have grown longer and thinner while their wings have become more rounded.

http://tiny.cc/4c7hp

Posted by: Anonymous | December 6, 2009 12:19 PM

"Remember, most of the world's problems are, and always have been caused by religion. Mankind will never truly be free until the black yoke of religion is lifted by the clear light of facts and logic."

Absolutely false. For every problem you can attempt to blame on religion, you can find a significant political or economic motivation which is far more likely the actual cause. The crusades were more about a desire for expansion and control of territory than they were ever about religion, and would have happened regardless of the religious rhetoric used to justify them.

You can see this today, in the continued death and destruction wreaked by predominantly secular governments. The world will not suddenly become a bastion of tolerance, understanding, and peace with the death of religion. The evidence suggests otherwise.

Posted by: godless | December 6, 2009 2:50 PM

I'd much rather listen to Danica McKellar talk about math. Or anything.

Posted by: atheistlibertariancriminalasshole | December 7, 2009 6:36 PM

@kevin c #83: of course kirk is qualified to debate, he's just not qualified to win.

Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | December 7, 2009 6:55 PM

The world will not suddenly become a bastion of tolerance, understanding, and peace with the death of religion.

And as long as there are religions, there will be different factions of that religion that will kill each other for some arbitrary difference. Not to mention the diffent religions who will wage holy jihads on eachother (yes jihads are religiously motivated). So much for peace.