Pharyngula

Posted by: recovering catholic | December 9, 2009 5:57 PM

I have this movie on DVD! It is hilarious, well worth watching, especially if you are stoned and/or have lots of hot buttered popcorn...

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | December 9, 2009 5:57 PM

"You can call me Ranger Brad."

(/Puts on 'Rent someday' list.)

Posted by: Sastra | December 9, 2009 6:00 PM

Oh, he's a scientist, all right.
What kind of scientist?

A MAD SCIENTIST!!!!

(Can a mad scientist, paradoxically be in a good mood?)

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 9, 2009 6:02 PM

Yay! New subThread!

Wait, no strikeout?

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 9, 2009 6:04 PM

Yeah, it's cool.
The strikeout tag here is just 's', not 'strike'.

I don't know why.

Posted by: lose_the_woo | December 9, 2009 6:06 PM

I'm impressed.

For the first time in 6 years (or so) I'm at a loss here at Pharyngula. Although I recall intermittent mentions of this "...thread that will not die..." phenomena, I have no idea of it's place in Pharyngula lore.

Posted by: Josh | December 9, 2009 6:11 PM

Bacon.

Wow. Now I really want some single malt. WTF?

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | December 9, 2009 6:13 PM

One of the great lines from The Lost Skeleton of Cadavera:

Stay on this road here, past Dead Man's Curve, you'll come to an old fence, called The Devil's Fence. From there, go on foot till you come to a valley known as The Cathedral Of Lost Soap. Smack in the center is what they call Forgetful Milkman's Quadrangle. Stay right on The Path Of Staring Skulls and you come to a place called Death Clearing. Cabin's right there, can't miss it.

Posted by: Josh | December 9, 2009 6:15 PM

"Head down thataway about six miles, and then turn right at the Chugwater..."

Posted by: SEF | December 9, 2009 6:19 PM

The lost skeleton of the mad bride of the son of the thread from Mars that will not die!

Could that be Sutekh?

Posted by: Owlmirror | December 9, 2009 6:22 PM

PZ, I don't suppose you could be persuaded to divulge explicitly what the link limit is, or what the moderation policy is (if any?)...

Sometimes I think you just like messing with us.

Kind of like God, come to think of it. Uh-oh.

Posted by: Josh | December 9, 2009 6:24 PM

I actually went* as Sutekh for Halloween once when I was wee.

*Well, I tried. I made my costume. It wasn't, shall we say, a smashing success.

Posted by: SEF | December 9, 2009 6:39 PM

The Pyramids Of Mars was always one of my favourite few episodes/stories too. I have a mummy emoticon based on it (one of only a smallish set of Doctor Who themed ones).

Someone put Danse Macabre on at the impromptu Halloween dance I attended this year - in costume (though not as Sutekh!). It's extremely long for a viennese waltz ...

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 9, 2009 6:44 PM

Compact history of The Thread, updated.

+1 = 14209

Posted by: DominEditrix | December 9, 2009 6:48 PM

Best worst SF movie not Battlefield Earth is The Terrornauts. John Brunner never did quite recover from being known for scripting it [from a Leinster story]. I was once present when he threatened to leave a party if the host ran the film. The host screened porn instead.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | December 9, 2009 7:06 PM

To answer Jadehawk from the previous incarnation of this thread:

Oh I didn't get into your-now-on-parole trouble. It was more like your-GPA-is-less-than-e-but-greater-than-radical-2 trouble.

Oh and the frat I am in is a national co-ed service based fraternity with non-hazing policies (except for in the Philippines.)

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 9, 2009 7:06 PM

Basically, stupid comments don't get you banned, but making lots of stupid comments over and over again, boring me, inciting lots of unproductive noise in the comment threads, that sort of thing, is required to rouse me to slap your butt down.

Posted by: Owlmirror | December 9, 2009 7:14 PM

Testing class=creationist, without going through preview...

Hello, my name is Kent Hovind. I am a creation/science evangelist. I live in Pensacola, Florida. I have been a high school science teacher since 1976. I've been very active in the creation/evolution controversy for quite some time.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 9, 2009 7:26 PM

PZ is a poopyhead

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 9, 2009 7:38 PM

Vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l0NDfoMago

(too much of a Luddite to embed it)

Posted by: Jeigh | December 9, 2009 8:00 PM

I feel like a little old lady who clicks on the quilting blog she reads every day, only to find a posted YT video of Lady Gaga and Nosferatu molesting Big Bird while clowns dance in the background singing a big band/hip-hop fusion version of "Enter Sandman".

Just no idea whats going on with this video.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | December 9, 2009 8:06 PM

Yay - snow day!*

I wonder what it would take to have snow days in North Dakota...

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 9, 2009 8:16 PM

Class is allowed?

Well we got no class
And we got no principles
And we got no innocence
We can't even think of a word that rhymes

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | December 9, 2009 8:25 PM

hmmm.... that should be "three inches of snow, and ice"; or better yet "ice and three inches of snow"

three inches of ice is something else entirely.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 9, 2009 8:28 PM

I wonder what it would take to have snow days in North Dakota...

Jadehawk, I sometimes put in an extra return (3) so I can get double spacing between paragraphs. Doesn't always work.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | December 9, 2009 8:36 PM

I get snow and I don't have to shovel anything either (well, unless I'm planning on using the car, which doesn't happen that often).

aah, the glories of renting :-p

Posted by: SC OM | December 9, 2009 8:40 PM

http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/poetry/gwendolyn-brooks.html

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 9, 2009 8:43 PM

also, why does posting sometimes kill my paragraph breaks?!

WTF? What browser are you using?

three inches of ice is something else entirely.

:-o

Want.

Homesick? Au contraire. Fernweh is what I get.

Posted by: JBabs073 | December 9, 2009 8:55 PM

I've seen too many mentions of the thread that will not die to have never actually posted in one.

Here's a legitimate question of much interest to me...

PZ, will your new book be listed and for sale on amazon.com? :)

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | December 9, 2009 9:40 PM

This seems like the appropriate forum to post this. Did any one see this. It's about Hasidic Jews getting rid of bike lanes because they didn't like scantily clad hotties biking by them.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | December 9, 2009 10:40 PM

This seems like the appropriate forum to post this. Did any one see this. It's about Hasidic Jews getting rid of bike lanes because they didn't like scantily clad hotties biking by them.

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | December 9, 2009 10:58 PM

I think we should spend the next incarnation of the thread throwing bread and snow at each other.

No snow here, and you'll all be really, really sorry if I start throwing my bread at people (see previous Thread incarnation, re leaden bread).

Movable Type has not yet sent me a confirming email; I think they don't like me.

Also, bacon.

Posted by: dustycrickets | December 9, 2009 11:11 PM

PZ Myers :
"I don't believe anything"

Robert Anton Wilson :
"Belief is the death of intelligence"
http://thinkexist.com/quotation/belief_is_the_death_of_intelligence-as_soon_as/264863.html

It will be a great day when RAW is remembered for being the genuine sceptic he was.....Some seem to think he was a New Age kook...

Also..Nerd of Red @ 35...
Banhammer is a great band name IMO.

Posted by: mythusmage | December 9, 2009 11:18 PM

Dahan, #67

Roger was a monk, Francis preferred boys, and last I heard Kevin was very much into the ladies. Or do you have another Bacon in mind?

Posted by: Rorschach | December 10, 2009 12:33 AM

Back in the world of the drunk living after night shifts, yay !

Just watched a godawful movie called "2012", oh Roland Emmerich how far have you sunken, I went to a movie seminar with him in the south of Germany once in the early 90s, when CGI was still pretty new and cool.
"ID4" was at least trashy cool, But this one is just awful.

Posted by: SC OM | December 10, 2009 12:54 AM

Just watched a godawful movie called "2012",

Well, it's your own fault. Didn't you see the trailer?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW2qxFkcLM0

;)

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 10, 2009 1:06 AM

@71

Lynna - I really love Leland's photos. This one is a favorite. It reminds me that the storm is passing, and all is going to be fine.

I love that photo too. I was there when it was taken. Gotta tell you though that all is not going to be fine once that storm passes -- at least not in that general area. Later that same day, we got a shot of a flash-flood in progress. We knew the rain would bring some floods roaring down the usually dry washes. We positioned ourselves in a wash with just a trickle of water and watched it grow. We had an escape route planned, and I was holding the pack that contained all the rest of the camera gear so that I could run up the bank with it if a wall of water approached. My brother had the job of leaping out of the wash with the tripod and one camera, if necessary.

Nature is indifferent to your personal welfare, and it's a good thing to remember that. Study her ways, and know when and how to get out of the way.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 10, 2009 1:32 AM

I've been watching the mormons gear up to run Mitt Romney for president again. Dallin Oaks makes speeches about folks hating Romney for his religion, and about how folks hate mormons for exercising their right to vote against gay marriage ... and he concludes that mormons are being persecuted like blacks were during the civil rights era. Extrapolation: Romney is a victim of racism and intolerance. (Yeah, right. Romney is correctly judged by people knowing a few alarming facts about mormonism.)

The mormons cozy up to the more fundamentalist Catholics, and to James Dobson on the evangelical side of Christianity.

The LDS Church backed an anti-discrimination law in Salt Lake City, aimed at providing equal housing opportunities for gays, and aimed at removing some of the stigma the church earned during the prop 8 campaign.

Their whole aim is to make the LDS Church look like just one more Christian sect. That way, all those Christian votes will swing their way. (Delusions, big time delusions.)

Three mormon dudes wrote an article, and tricked USA Today into publishing it. The article was based on bogus research (carried out by mormons, of course) that purported to show that if people knew more about mormons they'd feel more comfortable with the idea of a mormon president.

One of their new PR prongs is to alter mormon movies so they can be marketed to the wider Christian audience. To this end, they've been holding "a href="http://mormontimes.com/arts_entertainment/movies/?id=12060">seminars and conferences BYU is involved. So we can now look forward to edited versions of mormon movies. Oh, joy.

Posted by: Rorschach | December 10, 2009 2:45 AM

Oh noz !!

Giant Iceberg drifting towards Australia !

Posted by: Owlmirror | December 10, 2009 3:23 AM

Even higher resolution image can be downloaded here

+1

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | December 10, 2009 6:40 AM

I like the "OM, Redhead! Think Marjanović PM."

But can't find the bacon.

Someone find a way to combine the threads and strip out the silly overhead.

Posted by: Aquaria | December 10, 2009 8:36 AM

Yeah, Josh, I know what you mean. Then again, what else is new? It's politics.

That depresses me, so instead of dwelling on that, I'll go to bed now thinking about bacon.

Posted by: Josh | December 10, 2009 8:51 AM

*This word is used in honor of Josh.

I missed this previously.

I am now laughing my ass off.

Posted by: Josh | December 10, 2009 9:11 AM

You know the Sahara joke? "Straight ahead, and after three weeks you turn left."

Know it? I've lived variations of the Sahara joke.

Posted by: Alan B | December 10, 2009 9:50 AM

#62

This seems like the appropriate forum to post this. Did any one see this. It's about Hasidic Jews getting rid of bike lanes because they didn't like scantily clad hotties biking by them.

see my post #1010 in the previous Thread

and #1029 also in the previous thread for more guerillagorilla cycling.

Posted by: Snoof | December 10, 2009 10:11 AM

Uh, mythusmage, gravitons and gravity waves aren't necessarily the same thing. Gravity waves logically do exist - consider a binary star system with two identical stars, with you sitting in line with the disk of the system. If you measure its gravitational influence, it will fluctuate over time, being strongest when the line connecting the two stars of the system is pointing at you, and weakest when it's perpenticular to your line of view. This change in gravitational field _is_ a gravity wave.

This of course assumes that gravitational influence propagates at the same speed as light coming from the binary system. If it's slower, then the period of the visible rotation will appear to be shorter than the period of said gravitational waves. If it's faster... well, then one of the core postulates of SR is wrong, and physicists should probably get back to the drawing board.

(Also, if the two stars have different mass, then you'll note that the gravitational influence of the system behaves a bit differently - it'll be strongest when the more massive star is closest to you, and weakest when it's further away.)

More complicated systems will have more complicated waveforms than the sinusoidal ones you'll get from a binary system, but the point stands.

Gravitions, on the other hand, are force-carrying particles (subject to wave-particle duality as usual) which crop up when you attempt to quantize gravity. I'm reasonably sure they haven't been detected yet, but a few of their properties can be inferred from what we know about gravity (for example, gravity has unlimited range, so they must be massless). So yeah, it's possible they don't exist, but that would have major implications about the validity of quantum theory, which is otherwise an excellent tool for understanding physics (witness how incredibly powerful quantum electrodynamics is).

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | December 10, 2009 10:29 AM

The pie! She is gone.

All eated now.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 10, 2009 10:37 AM

Owlmirror @81, thanks for sharing the pain. I feel better now. The worst part is receiving emails from friends with their conclusions that run something like this, "If even other scientists [Lanza, M.D., being one of these "scientists"] question the validity of scientific materialism, then my woo/religion is just as valid as science" -- I think they're trying on the attitude, "all versions of reality are equal, so respect my whacko religion".

Even through the email you can smell relief. They think they've found a way to keep their religious beliefs intact, while still feeling like they also have personal integrity. They're not spitting into the wind after all!

The trouble is that none of Lanza's woo is useful for anything other than this temporary reprieve from reason.

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 10, 2009 11:33 AM

And so, as you can see, gravity is not strictly speaking a force. It is rather the outcome of how mass affects space time.

So far, so good…

There is an implication that arises because of this, there are no gravitons. There is no need for gravitons. Nor, indeed, any opportunities for gravitons to arise because of the nature of gravity and how it arises.

But how does mass bend spacetime? Aren't the gravitons supposed to do that?

Just like how the photons bend the electromagnetic field…?

I must also say that your entire comment presupposes that thousands of physicists have never thought of this utterly obvious possible objection within the last 104 years. When someone does that with climatologists, we call them a denialist and laugh them out of the room and/or fuel a 1000-comment thread… I'm just saying.

this thread need's a wordle

Requires a more advanced version of Java than I have :-(

(Also, something tells me you really needed to go to bed. There I was thinking I'm really tired when I stay up till half past 3…)

Same as the old boss...

Not quite as far from the old boss as I'd like, but still, it could be worse. It could be a lot worse. It could be the same as the old boss.

It could even be worse than the old boss. It could be Failin'.

I get the impression that Obama takes the issues very seriously, which is a big progress over "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job", even though his… his idealism isn't mine.

forces that have a 1/r^2 dependence

To be fair, there are only two of those – electromagnetism and gravity. The strong force is 1/r⁷, and the weak force has an even bigger exponent.

Posted by: SC OM | December 10, 2009 12:01 PM

Speaking of Obama, I just put this up:

http://saltycurrent.blogspot.com/2009/12/no-justice-no-healing-more-on-obamas.html

***

The Canadian government has been no better, btw:

http://www.rightsaction.org/Alerts/Honduras_Kent_mistatements_120509.html

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 10, 2009 12:15 PM

How come you can travel multiple directions through space dimensions but only one and, as far as we know, at a constant "speed" through time?

We are not traveling through time. That's just a bad metaphor someone took and ran away with.

And while we're on the subject, can anyone explain vacuum energy?

No. :-)

Anyway:

snow
more snow
snow of the Minnesota variety
snow that should make you homesick
random North Dakota snow off the internet

this bread could be good especially if you keep in mind that it's supposed to be extra-spicy
this one could be even better except the picture is too small and we don't get to see what it looks like on the inside
this is probably rather average but I could be surprised
this should make you drool on the keyboard
more of the same
this could be good staple food

Warning: I have almost certainly never eaten any of those. I'm going just from my experience on how what bread tastes like is correlated to what it looks like.

Six links. Let's see…

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | December 10, 2009 12:25 PM

Dianne, we can only travel in one direction in time, but we can adjust the speed in a sense - that's the logic behind the twin paradox: timedilation.

The faster we travel through space the slower we travel through time.

But someone with a better memory (and understanding) will have to elaborate.

Posted by: Dianne | December 10, 2009 1:02 PM

First, how many dimensions does spacetime have? Best guess is maybe 10 or maybe 26. So why can't we move in all these dimensions? The idea is that the hidden dimensions are all curled up on themselves at dimensions like the Planck length--more than a billion-billion times as samll as the nucleus.

I've always had a little trouble with this concept too...how can a dimension be curled up? It seems to imply that it is squashed somehow within the three macroscopic space dimensions. My current best guess is that the problem is that I'm conceptualizing this all wrong, but knowing that doesn't help me understand it all any better.

Actually, what is a dimension, really?

Posted by: a_ray_in_dilbert_space | December 10, 2009 1:52 PM

David, If you have even one bonafide miracle, then you have to consider that any experimental result could be the result of a miracle--and I don't know how to calculate the probability of that. In effect, it means your probabilities don't add up to one, and that is quite problematic for science, since it means that Sarah Palin's (via Tina Fey) explanation of Global warming (God just hugging us tighter) can't be dismissed.

Posted by: SEF | December 10, 2009 2:09 PM

@ Dianne #101:

Please use small words and simple equations in your explanation.

Oh, you are so asking for this!

Posted by: llewelly | December 10, 2009 2:12 PM

PROOF that dinosaurs did not evolve.
Instead, they were created by volcanoes!

Posted by: Dianne | December 10, 2009 2:41 PM

Time is different, and while we have tantalizing hints, we don't know just why yet.

What sort of hints?

Could any of the other dimensions be time-like rather than space-like and might that account for their lack of noticability?

Is noticability even a word?

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | December 10, 2009 2:47 PM

Also, something tells me you really needed to go to bed. There I was thinking I'm really tired when I stay up till half past 3…

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | December 10, 2009 2:55 PM

As long as we're throwing snow at each other, my brother took this photo about a mile from my house. There is an eddy just downstream of this shot, and that's where I usually go for the all-important activity of skipping rocks.

Beautiful as always... and makes me miss the Tetons terribly. This time of year is always rough. My poor tele-skis are just sitting in the garage all lonely and unused.

Posted by: Epikt | December 10, 2009 3:28 PM

Dianne, in answer to your question about time always running at the same rate, here's
an explanation of time dilation, i.e. why "moving clocks run slow." The first three sections are relevant.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 10, 2009 3:37 PM

Beautiful as always... and makes me miss the Tetons terribly. This time of year is always rough. My poor tele-skis are just sitting in the garage all lonely and unused.

I see PZ picked up the Dr. Lanza nonsense (comment #79), and gave it a sound drubbing in "The Dead are Dead" thread. Lovely, PZ. I'd call him my saviour, but that would be going to far in elevating a PoopyHead to mythological proportions.

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 10, 2009 3:48 PM

Trying again with five four links…

===================

How come you can travel multiple directions through space dimensions but only one and, as far as we know, at a constant "speed" through time?

We are not traveling through time. That's just a bad metaphor someone took and ran away with.

And while we're on the subject, can anyone explain vacuum energy?

No. :-)

Anyway:

snow
more snow
snow of the Minnesota variety
snow that should make you homesick
random North Dakota snow off the internet

this bread could be good especially if you keep in mind that it's supposed to be extra-spicy
this one could be even better except the picture is too small and we don't get to see what it looks like on the inside
this should make you drool on the keyboard
more of the same

Warning: I have, unfortunately, almost certainly never eaten any of those. I'm going just from my experience on how what bread tastes like is correlated to what it looks like.

===================

David, If you have even one bonafide miracle, then you have to consider that any experimental result could be the result of a miracle--and I don't know how to calculate the probability of that.

Just appeal to parsimony.

Making reality sound like an Onion headline is serious?

It's too serious, even. :-/

Don't let Fearless Flightsuit appear better in retrospect than he was. Even going to war with the army Gen. Shinseki wants instead of the army Sgt. Rummy wants is progress in this decade of headdesking.

four in the morning is my normal bed-time, so I didn't stay up that much longer than I should have...

I'm talking about need's.

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 10, 2009 3:51 PM

OK, so here go the other two:

this is probably rather average but I could be surprised
this could be good staple food

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | December 10, 2009 3:55 PM

I'm talking about need's.

Posted by: Kel, The Privileged View From Nowhere | December 10, 2009 4:27 PM

Saw a couple of comments this morning that I thought were molly worthy, then it turned out both of them already had mollys. Damn, I'm running out of people to nominate.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | December 10, 2009 4:34 PM

I think we should spend the next incarnation of the thread throwing bread and snow at each other.

There is now enough snow on the local range (Gatineaus) that the one largeish hill therein (Mont Ste-Marie) is promising to be open Saturday...

This is a good thing for me. Insofar as I have gone and agreed with my lovely wife that she can hit Tremblant (Laurentians--2 hrs from here) Sunday and I'll cover. I figure I can do Ste-Marie Saturday now. Which is a pretty decent consolation, actually.

(/Tho' probably, they won't have much open, I'm also not really quite in shape for this yet anyway, as I only really ramped up strength training a few weeks ago... So all in all, keeping it simple will probably be a good thing.)

Posted by: thou 386sx | December 10, 2009 4:48 PM

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/12/creationists-sa.html

Rave reviews for Signature in the Cell...

"Meyers honestly takes you where the evidence leads,"

"Signiture in the Cell - a real eye opener"

"Best book on the origin of life to come along in years!"

"A death blow to Neo-Dawinism and Richard Dawkins!"

"Great Teaching Resource!"

"Excellent read"

I'm calling Poe on the "Signiture in the Cell - a real eye opener" one though!

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 10, 2009 5:15 PM

Josh @127

Jesus... I can feel the cold in that one.

Here's another one -- Red Rock Pass, on the Continental Divide. Leland and I camped there overnight, and in the morning we had to take batteries out of the light meter and warm them in our inner pockets to get them to work. We both had on expedition parkas, felt-lined boots, hats plus hoods, and mittens plus liners. The day was cold enough that the snow gave off a squeak when we walked around camp. It was painful, but extraordinarily beautiful. Late October, IIRC. That's Nemesis Mountain in the Centennial Range, an east-west running line of peaks that define the Idaho/Montana border for about forty miles.

Posted by: Josh | December 10, 2009 5:53 PM

That's because you've been out there, as I have, winter camping, staying out all night, and getting up to find everything that was not inside your sleeping bag frozen.

Yep. Yep.

Yep.

Here's another one -- Red Rock Pass, on the Continental Divide.

I just spent a while browsing. Just...great stuff.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 10, 2009 6:09 PM

"Yes, Virginia, there is no god," signs censored in Las Vegas. Oh, yeah, let's get all righteous about protecting god and christmas in the City of Sin!

Apparently there's no room at the inn for an irreverent billboard saying "there is no God." ClearChannel Outdoor company in Las Vegas has taken down six Freedom From Religion Foundation billboards that had a jolly Santa stating, "Yes, Virginia... There is no God," just one to two days after placing them around the city.
     A kind donor paid for 10 solstice signs to adorn the city of Las Vegas this December, which, in addition to the six censored "Yes, Virginia..." signs, included two that said "Heathen's Greetings" and two with the message "Reason's Greetings."
     A representative from ClearChannel Outdoor told FFRF that the Santa signs were removed due to calls of complaint received by the company.
     "It's rather mind-boggling for this to happen in a town with the reputation of Las Vegas, built on gambling and call girls," said Annie Laurie Gaylor, Foundation co-president. "Who would have guessed there would be such delicate sensibilities in the city known for the saying 'What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.' "
     Gaylor remarked: " 'Tis the season for censorship—we are just happy our other signs passed muster."

Posted by: Alan B | December 10, 2009 6:17 PM

"Share and Enjoy" (But with Real geology! And fossils!!)

In the last incarnation of "The dread Thread" #875 I introduced the Herefordshire lagerstätte. ("Thread meet lagerstätte, lagerstätte meet thread - I hope you'll get on really well ...")
The remainder here is a bit more scientific but less fun (Ed. Shame!).

The single quarry location is classified as a Konservat-Lagerstätte i.e. there is exceptional preservation with the soft parts of animals and even entire soft-bodied animals being preserved. According to one of those working in the field:

"The Herefordshire biota is emerging as an exciting palaeontological discovery of global importance. World-wide there are only 20 or so key Konservat-Lagerstätten known, with hardly any from the Silurian. It thus provides a missing palaeobiological window between the more numerous Konservat-Lagerstätten known from the older Cambrian, such as the famous Burgess Shale fauna of British Columbia, and those in the Devonian."

The academics have collected about 4,000 of the cherry to grapefruit-sized concretions and have found about half of those they have opened to contain soft-bodied fossils. As well as those that give the site the status of a Konservat-Lagerstätte there are enough "ordinary" macrofossils (brachiopods, graptolites) and microfossils (chitinozoan palynomorphs and radiolaria) to show that it corresponds approximately to the level of the Sheinwoodian-Homerian stage boundary within the Silurian Wenlock Series (426.2 ±2.4 Ma).

The softbodied invertebrates are beautifully preserved in extraodinary detail in 3 dimensions (Ref.2). The faunas were overwhelmed by volcanic ash, either directly or by ash being carried by currents. One fossil shows how a worm-like fauna made efforts to escape before it finally expired. Decomposition of the soft-bodied animals left a void which was in-filled by crystalline calcite to produce a cast of the specimen (think about the lost wax process of foundry casting as a [poor] analogy).

The problem has been how to "release" these exquisite miniature fossils from a matrix which is chemically similar. Since the matrix is predominantly calcite it is not possible to free the fossils by solution in acid. Initially, many were broken open at random and attempts were made to reconstruct the animal by looking at the fracture surfaces. Some information was obtained but it became clear that this was not an effective way of investigating such precious samples.

The specimens are now examined by grinding back about 20 microns at a time and taking photographs that are digitally stored and processed to give a 3D image of the animal (which, of course, is destroyed in the process). The 3D image can be presented with false colours or even "printed" as an enlarged 3D model by using laser-fused plastic powder.

I find the methods used to investigate the fossils fascinating but it is the results that matter. What have they found, what has it contributed to palaeontology? To answer such questions is beyond my knowledge. Sufficient to say that outside of this single quarry there is little detailed information on soft-bodies faunas for this period of geological history. It helps, therefore, to fill a gap in our knowledge of the history of life and will help to resolve issues about the relationships and evolution of various groups of animals.

(See next thread for references from the text and other information)

Posted by: Alan B | December 10, 2009 6:32 PM

To follow on from #142 and #143

Other papers of interest but not directly referred to in #142:

Ref 4
An excellent recent general introduction (and free!) with plenty of photographs, mostly taken from other papers. About 20 references to technical papers. Hence this is probably a good place to start if you want to find out where to find the peer reviewed papers relating to specific specimens and their implications:
"Virtual Fossils from 425 Million-year-old Volcanic Ash"
Subtitle: A set of exceptionally preserved but difficult-to-extract fossils reveals the diverse creatures from a Silurian sea-floor community
Derek E. Briggs, Derek J. Siveter, David J. Siveter, Mark D. Sutton
http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/id.4854,y.2008,no.6,content.true,page.7,css.print/issue.aspx

(ask for the printable version on the screen)

Ref 5
The original paper reporting on the site (behind a paywall)
Derek E. G. Briggs, David J. Siveter & Derek J. Siveter (1996), "Soft-bodied fossils from a Silurian volcaniclastic deposit", Nature, (1996), Vol 248, pp. 248-250.
doi:10.1038/382248a0

Ref 6
A free paper that goes into some depth:
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/273/1590/1039.full.pdf

Fossilized soft tissues in a Silurian platyceratid gastropod
M.D Sutton, D.E.G Briggs, David J Siveter and Derek J Siveter
Proc. R. Soc. B 2006 273, 1039-1044
doi: 10.1098/rspb.2005.3403

Ref 7
Another free paper:
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/274/1622/2099.full.pdf
A new probable stem lineage crustacean with three-dimensionally preserved soft parts from the
Herefordshire (Silurian) Lagerstatte, UK
Derek J. Siveter1,2,*, Mark D. Sutton3, Derek E. G. Briggs4 and David J. Siveter5
Proc. R. Soc. B (2007) 274, 2099–2107
doi:10.1098/rspb.2007.0429

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 10, 2009 6:37 PM

Personalize your religion, get your own ring tone from god. Okay, maybe not the ringtone bit, but you can personalize everything else. A story by Eric Gorski of the Associated Press discusses some of the odd, mix-and-match approaches that Americans are taking when it comes to religion.

     • About one in four Americans believes in Eastern or New Age ideas, including reincarnation, which is part of Buddhism and Hinduism; yoga as a spiritual practice; spiritual energy in things like mountains, trees and crystals; and astrology.
     • About 16 percent of Americans believe in the "evil eye," that certain people can cast curses or spells. More than one in 10 White evangelicals who attend church weekly and three in 10 Black Protestants believe in the phenomenon, which can be found in Islam, Judaism and traditional African beliefs.
     • Roughly three in 10 Americans say they have felt in touch with someone who has died - up from 18 percent in 1996. The belief is most common among Black Protestants and Catholics. Nearly one in five Americans say they have been in the presence of a ghost.
     • Three in 10 Protestants say they attend multiple types of religious services, including services at Protestant denominations different from their own. Almost one in five Protestants also attends non-Protestant services. About one in five Catholics attends non-Catholic services.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | December 10, 2009 6:48 PM

Rev, I can only exacerbate your longing for the Tetons. They are looking mighty fine with their new snow-capes. Here are the Tetons as seen from Pine Creek Pass, on the Idaho side. Pine Creek Pass is on the approach from Swan Valley, Idaho to Driggs/Victor, Idaho. There's a nice, plowed pullout right on the pass, and from there one can ski cross country on several trails (the trails are dirt roads in the summer).

Funny, I know exactly where that is.

sigh

One day I'll get back out there. I better start doing deep knee bends now if i hope to ever be able to strap those teles back on.

Posted by: Josh | December 10, 2009 7:09 PM

This one is terrific too:

http://www.wildernessbooks.com/lee/lee/death_hollow_tree.html

Soil? Soil?
Soil is for fucking chumps. I don't need no stinkin' soil.

Posted by: SC OM | December 10, 2009 7:24 PM

One day I'll get back out there. I better start doing deep knee bends now if i hope to ever be able to strap those teles back on.

Had to look that up. Be it said, I HATE cold. But I do love cross-country skiing (as I recall), and think I might like this. I'm confused, though: Is it just like downhill skiing with a different binding, or something closer to x-country? What's the terrain?

...*plans to email friend's brother*

Posted by: mythusmage | December 10, 2009 7:37 PM

Feynmaniac, #95

It couldn't be because of ordinary, everyday tidal action? The same thing that causes the Moon to move (ever so slowly) away from the Earth? Not, in other words, because of good old-fashioned Newtonian mechanics?

Posted by: SC OM | December 10, 2009 7:43 PM

*reads more*

Ah. So it's really more of a technically-enabled turning technique for downhill? Not a hybrid thing?

Too bad.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | December 10, 2009 7:50 PM

oooh, Telemark skiing = Norwegian Style skiing.

It looks funny, but makes it easier to ski off the beaten track, IIRC.

Posted by: SC OM | December 10, 2009 8:06 PM

http://www.wildernessbooks.com/lee/lee/city_rocks_dali.html

WOAH.

***

Bryce Canyon, btw, is breathtaking.

Posted by: thou 386sx | December 10, 2009 8:13 PM

The wonderful, wonderful Chocolate River. Simply amazing.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | December 10, 2009 8:20 PM

If you insist on doing sports in the cold then you can always go ice sailing.

Posted by: a_ray_in_dilbert_space | December 10, 2009 8:31 PM

Mythusmage, Do you have a copy of Misner, Thorne and Wheeler's book "Gravitation"? MTW go on at some length about gravitational waves--hell, the entries in the index go on for nearly an entire page. That is ALL about GR.

In GR, the gravitational field is (locally) indistinguishable from an accelerated reference frame. In 4-space, this gives rise to additional terms in the metric tensor for the space--that is the GR envisions gravity as a curvature of space. And GR predicts gravitational waves--it is inevitable given the form for gravitational potential.

Gravitons arise when we start to think about a quantum theory of gravity. Because the gravitational field scales inversely with radius, the gravitons must be massless. You can also deduce their spin (2) and some other properties. However, quantum theory is a global theory, while GR is local. That makes the marriage difficult, and requires something like string theory or quantum loop gravity.

In any case, your assumption that GR doesn't view the gravitational field as a curvature in spacetime is simply false.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 10, 2009 9:06 PM

you guys, stop posting pictures of pretty places! Oterwise, I'll end up blowing all my savings on going hiking with Lynna rather than going back to college!

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 10, 2009 9:33 PM

yeah, but I might not be. Haven't you noticed that certain insidious individuals have been trying to get me off this continent?

Well, I do see the advantage of moving to where there's good bread. :-)

Posted by: Snoof | December 10, 2009 10:14 PM

On Gravity Waves: That's entirely my point, we assume and observe gravity waves because we see gravity as a force. It is my contention that gravity is not a classical force, but the reult of the interaction between an object and space-time as influenced by another object.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 10, 2009 10:44 PM

Lynna, your brothers pictures bring back memories for me. Back in the late '50's and early '60's, I attended with my paternal grandparents "travelogues" arranged by the local museum and presented at the Kellogg Auditorium. For the price of a movie ticket, we listened to a 60-90 minute lecture, with slides and/or movies of the type of pictures that Leland takes. Far off the normal paths for tourists of that day. I think those are something that died off with the advent of the freeways easier mobility.

Posted by: Owlmirror | December 10, 2009 11:27 PM

Speaking of fundamental physics, any thoughts on varying speed of light?

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 10, 2009 11:43 PM

Speaking of fundamental physics, any thoughts on varying speed of light?

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | December 11, 2009 12:20 AM

Most people have no idea what it's like to visit parts of the western states that have no marked trails, where even some of the access roads are not signed -- most people don't know how to visit such places, nor what a treasure they are. When I write an adventure travel book, I have to keep reminding myself of these facts. It feels alien to me to not know how to explore terrain on one's own.

Posted by: Rorschach | December 11, 2009 3:54 AM

IT'S FUCKING COLD OUTSIDE!!!!!!!

Funnily enough that also applies to (supposedly)summery Melbourne,AU, which is why yours truly will jump on a plane to Coolangatta tomorrow, to spend a few days in lavish decadence and more important, warmth !

Posted by: Alan B | December 11, 2009 5:00 AM

#162 reindeerboy386sx

The wonderful, wonderful Chocolate River. Simply amazing.

... and not an Oompa-Loompa in sight!

Posted by: Rorschach | December 11, 2009 5:21 AM

New dinosaur found !

Posted by: Alan B | December 11, 2009 5:39 AM

From #161 David Marjanović

World-wide there are only 20 or so key Konservat-Lagerstätten known

Ha! Those were the times! Turns out northeastern China is fucking full of them. Too bad the stratigraphic correlation between them is so difficult.

Exactly, and presumably that is one reason why the author I quoted chose to use the term "key Konservat-Lagerstätten". The Herefordshire site has been correlated to the stage boundary between the Sheinwoodian and the Homerian of the Wenlock in the Silurian. It was formed on the outer shelf or upper slope area of the Welsh sedimentary basin at a water depth of 150-200 m. The precision with which these things can be defined, along with the rarity (i.e. none) of such sites in the Silurian means that key can be used for this site.

In addition, the hard-bodied fossils of a similar age are well defined in the Dudley Wenlock Lagerstätte (which I may be coming to shortly) so we have both superb hard and soft bodied collections at the same time. In addition, the Welsh Marches and the Welsh Basin have been the subject of intense investigation since before the time of Sir Roderick Impey Murchison.

It may even be possible to correlate the site further. Thus, there are about a dozen volcanic ash deposits in the Wenlock which can be individually discriminated and cover wide areas (the volcanoes may have been tens to hundreds of miles away). Thus, if the deposit were formed in situ it may be possible to correlate with other ash layers.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | December 11, 2009 9:15 AM

While lovely, David, I'm afraid all your breads looks the same to me.

Questions about physics and the nature of reality really should be addressed to Yul BrynnerEthan Siegel.

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 11, 2009 9:42 AM

the metric tensor for the space

Just to explain that term: a tensor is a matrix in which each element is itself a vector.

quantum theory is a global theory, while GR is local.

What does that mean?

yeah, but I might not be. Haven't you noticed that certain insidious individuals have been trying to get me off this continent?

The life of a scientist is endless globetrotting, from one conference to the next, as many as you can get financed (and as many as you're willing to deal with in terms of time and bureaucracy). That's how it's possible that I've been to China, twice to the USA, once to Canada… and my supervisor just came back from five weeks in Argentina and Uruguay.

Speaking of fundamental physics, any thoughts on varying speed of light?

WE DON' NEED NO WADR, LE| THE MOTHRFUCKR BRN – BRN, MOTHRFUCKR, BRN!!!

Slightly more seriously, there was a Nature paper last week or so which showed there's no color dependence of the speed of light. :-)

snow

Weaksauce. That's just a centimeter.

sparkly snow

Lovely!

snow in the future

Fine, fine… and nicely cold…

A fuckton of snow from the past

That's the real thing.

Exactly, and presumably that is one reason why the author I quoted chose to use the term "key Konservat-Lagerstätten".

All of them are key. Every single of the Chinese ones preserves key evidence on the evolution of birds, mammals, champsosaurs, salamanders, gars, mayflies… oh, and then there's Chengjiang in the south. :-)

Is there an english translation of this clearly chinese sentence ?

http://stratigraphy.science.purdue.edu/gssp/index.php?parentid=77

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 11, 2009 9:52 AM

What the… fuck. Now that registration is turned on again, I have to "sign in" anew at the start of every new browser session, except that all I have to do for that is click on "Sign in", which makes the name/e-mail/URL fields disappear and my name appear.

Or so I thought. I forgot to "sign in", clicked "submit", interrupted because I thought it couldn't get through, "signed in", resubmitted… and it turns out the original got through, and I was signed in.

~:-|

While lovely, David, I'm afraid all your breads looks the same to me.

You say that as if it were a bad thing…

But never fear, I'll look for more. I was looking for a specific sort of bread that I still haven't found on teh intarwebz. Its name is way too generic for Google. All the bread I found yesterday is from one single bakery…

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | December 11, 2009 10:03 AM

Oh sorry but now I have skiing on the brain.

Here's a some short clips from a Teleskiing film.

you can see the technique a little better on the not huge fat deep powder shots, but you should be able to get an idea.

Posted by: a_ray_in_dilbert_space | December 11, 2009 11:03 AM

On the nonlocality of quantum theory.

Ah, this is where the real weirdness of the theory comes from! To understand this, you have to consider that quantum mechanics attributes to an object both particle-like and wave-like properties. Now particles are local--they occupy a point, or at least finite space. A wave extends effectively over all space. Even solitons have effects that extend beyond the main wave packet.
In quantum mechanics, before you make a measurement, the particle may not possess a well defined value for, say, spin, angular momentum, etc. Then, after you make your measurement, you force it into a state that has a well defined value (wave function collapse). But because we are talking about a wave, this has to happen over all space simultaneously! This is the origin of all those weird effects like quantum entanglement, etc. It's also why all the devotees of woo just love quantum mechanics--though not to the point where they'll actually learn anything about it.

Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold | December 11, 2009 12:14 PM

There is a hill on the English/Welsh border called Lord Hereford's Knob.

The wonderful band, Half Man Half Biscuit did a song with the same title.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | December 11, 2009 12:34 PM

Rev, I loved the skiing film. I was never good enough to ski steep terrain on telemark skis. Not a chance.

I'm the opposite, if I couldn't drop a knee I wouldn't be able to ski anything steep or narrow... or deep for that matter.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 11, 2009 12:51 PM

Making batteries out of paper -- interesting idea, and I like the fact that they are flexible.

Scientists are harnessing nanotechnology to quickly produce ultra-lightweight, bendable batteries and supercapacitors in the form of everyday paper. Simply coating a sheet of paper with ink made of carbon nanotubes and silver nanowires makes a highly conductive storage device, said Yi Cui, assistant professor of materials science and engineering at Stanford University.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 11, 2009 1:20 PM

Update on the ongoing war, of evangelicals and mormons vs. porn:

Titled "The Effects of Pornography on Individuals, Marriage, Family and Community," the study was authored by Patrick F. Fagan, a Family Research Council senior fellow and director of its Center for Research on Marriage and Religion.
     "Pornography is a visual representation of sexuality which distorts an individual's concept of the nature of conjugal relations," wrote Fagan. "This, in turn, alters both sexual attitudes and behavior. It is a major threat to marriage, to family, to children and to individual happiness. In undermining marriage, it is one of the factors in undermining social stability."
     The former deputy assistant secretary for family and community policy at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services during President George H.W. Bush's administration, Fagan was also a former senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation.
     His 28-page study and two-page executive summary were released locally by the Sutherland Institute in conjunction with the Family Research Council in Washington, D.C.
     As for effects on the mind, "pornography significantly distorts attitudes and perceptions about the nature of sexual intercourse," Fagan wrote. "Men who habitually look at pornography have a higher tolerance for abnormal sexual behaviors, sexual aggression, promiscuity and even rape."

Here's an example of the sludge from Paul Mero's mind, on the topic of gays (Mero is President of the Sutherland Institute):

"Your idea of rights is an illusion. With the backing of every miserable misanthropic philosopher on the path of the post enlightenment era, your initiative feeds on the unreasonable notion that you have these magical organic rights to do whatever you desire," said Paul Mero, Sutherland Institute
     Mero also said Sutherland Institute doesn't just disagree with the idea for gay rights; it disagrees with every assumption underlying the gay rights initiatives.

Posted by: Josh | December 11, 2009 1:34 PM

So Herrerasaurus now is a theropod after all?!? That's surprising.

*shrug*

This week. Phylogenies aren't facts.

It is an interesting result, though, no?

Posted by: Josh | December 11, 2009 1:47 PM

It was a great photo--all the better because those were coarse-grained eolian sandstones (as opposed to something lame like a gneiss) that were providing the support for that little tree.

...there are still hoof-strike marks on some of the rocks, where shod pack animals scrambled for their lives).

No shit? Do you guys have photographs of any of those?

Posted by: Alan B | December 11, 2009 2:24 PM

#189
Hi Rorschach

David has given you the bare bones. Here's a bit more.

Geological time is divided up arbitrarily into Eons. There are 4 eons - we are interested in the Phanerozoic Eon or the Eon of Revealed Life which starts at the Cambrian/Precambrian boundary and continues up to the present.

The Phanerozoic Eon is divided into 3 Eras - we are interested in the Palaeozoic (Paleozoic to Americans who know no Greek). The Era of Ancient Life is divided into 6 time periods or Systems from the Cambrian to the end of the Permian. All 6 were named in the 19th century by British geologists and the names are still in current use.

One of the 6 Systems is the Silurian, named by Sir Robert Impey Murchison.

"The Silurian system was first identified by British geologist Roderick Murchison, who was examining fossil-bearing sedimentary rock strata in south Wales in the early 1830s. He named the sequences for a Celtic tribe of Wales, the Silures, following the convention his friend Adam Sedgwick had established for the Cambrian. In 1835 the two men presented a joint paper, under the title On the Silurian and Cambrian Systems, Exhibiting the Order in which the Older Sedimentary Strata Succeed each other in England and Wales, which was the germ of the modern geological time scale. As it was first identified, the "Silurian" series when traced farther afield quickly came to overlap Sedgwick's "Cambrian" sequence, however, provoking furious disagreements that ended the friendship. Charles Lapworth resolved the conflict by defining a new Ordovician system including the contested beds."

The Silurian System is divided (again arbitrarily but in a way that was considered useful at the time and continues today) into 4 series. For a long time it was 3 with the final series at the bottom of the Devonian System.

[Just a comment on "divided arbitrarily". Nowhere on Earth do you have a pink and white rock with the name "Silurian" in red letters all the way through. The divisions were made at what were considered interesting or important places. It was initially located in Britain at the curious Ludlow Bone Bed (see the sub-thread on Ludford Corner) which covered a large area in the Welsh Marches. In addition, the top of the Silurian/bottom of the Devonian so defined was the last time graptolites are found in Britain. Since this bed was not international and since graptolites are found in later rocks elsewhere, it has been agreed that the Silurian/Devonian boundary should also be elsewhere. A location near the town of Klonk (seriously!) in the Czech Republic was chosen. The Prodoli Series of the Silurian was born.]

The other 3 series are named after towns in the Welsh Marches or Wales itself.

Thus
Llandovery is in mid-Wales on the A48 road.
Wenlock comes from Much Wenlock in Shropshire.
Ludlow is another town in Shropshire, a few miles from the Welsh border.

All 4 series can be used in adjectival form:
Llandoverian, Wenlockian, Ludlovian, Pridolian.

The Wenlock and the Ludlow series are each divided into 2 stages which are named after locations in their respective areas. Thus, the Ludlovian is divided into the Gorstian and the Ludfordian Stages (Ludford as in Ludford Corner).

Finally, we get to the Wenlock Series. Here the Stages are the Homerian, named after the hamlet of Homer near Much Wenlock and the Sheinwoodian appears to be named after a manor house close to Homer and to the type section.

Hence, to state that a formation came from the Sheinwoodian/Homerian boundary defines (as precisely as the Stages themselves are defined) its age and position in the Silurian.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | December 11, 2009 2:31 PM

Proudly serving as the typos boogie man for 4+ years.

Posted by: llewelly | December 11, 2009 2:50 PM

Lynna Author Profile Page | December 11, 2009 11:50 AM:

When I explored wilderness and proposed wilderness in Utah, I kept running across landforms with "Nipple" in the name. In particular, there seemed to be an abundance of "Molly's Nipple" ...

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | December 11, 2009 2:54 PM

That's a lot of superfluous nipples. Scaramanga would be impressed.

Posted by: Dania | December 11, 2009 3:06 PM

watch out!!!!! typinh cooties!!!!!!

...so peope use...

That was predictable...

Posted by: Alan B | December 11, 2009 3:49 PM

Prodoli was a mistake. Pridoli is common usage in English (UK and American).

Posted by: Alan B | December 11, 2009 4:11 PM

David

Really there is no longer any excuse not to combine the two types of nomenclature into one with more and more boundaries being defined internationally, both chronostratigraphically and biostratigraphically. Wouldn't you agree?

Posted by: Alan B | December 11, 2009 4:42 PM

#199

My geologically inclined brother, Steve, and I forgot our topo maps on an expedition in Nevada. But Steve had his geological maps, so we navigated by geology.

Of course, I trust you implicitly, Lynna!!

However, I would call "B.S." if you were in the UK. The 1:50,000 geology maps are based on the Ordinance Survey (OS) maps and the OS map format is printed lightly "behind" the geology. So. Yes, I could do the same and navigate by geology* in the UK but I would be cheating!

* Actually, for nearly all of England and much of the rest of the UK there is little solid geology exposed because of soil and vegetation so you can only make intelligent guesses about the solid geology underneath. On one of the fieldtrips I lead occasionally the solid geology goes from oolitic limestone to a sandstone which has superficially weathered to a sandy soil. The contrast is sharply defined by the appearance of gorse (bright yellow flowers and prickly) on the sandstone in place of grass on the limestone. Also, the rabbit warrens are a bit of a giveaway! There is a shallow quarry with grass on the floor and gorse and rabbits about a couple of metres up on the top of the face. (And wild orchids on undisturbed limestone soils in the early summer.)

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 11, 2009 5:32 PM

Really there is no longer any excuse not to combine the two types of nomenclature into one with more and more boundaries being defined internationally, both chronostratigraphically and biostratigraphically. Wouldn't you agree?

Of course. But then, I'm a palaeobiologist.

And you didn't immediately convert to Christianity?

Because there's no 3 in there. In fact, the whole thing looks more like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, rāmen.

Argument 626!

"Proof", not "argument". It's called "Hundreds of Proofs", and, well, there's not a single argument in there, so... :-}

Posted by: Dania | December 11, 2009 6:00 PM

In fact, the whole thing looks more like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, rāmen.

Ah, well observed. I think I can see three longer peaks there. Kind of. But your interpretation makes much more sense. Rāmen.

"Proof", not "argument". It's called "Hundreds of Proofs"

It's also called the "Francis Collins' Argument from Frozen Waterfalls"...

*shrug*

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 11, 2009 6:07 PM

:-) In fact, the bread is so good that I just ate the end slice just so, without butter. :-) Did you know there are opioids-or-whatever right under the crust of fresh bread? :-) Now for a thick slice with butter... :-)

Posted by: Dania | December 11, 2009 6:24 PM

David, you're making me hungry. :)

Posted by: SC OM | December 11, 2009 7:10 PM

Yum. I love hearty bread.

I also always enjoy the Proofs (haven't looked at those for a while):

ARGUMENT FROM OLD MAN WITH WHITE BEARD (1) You seem to think we still believe in an old man with a white beard living in the sky. (2) We don't. (3) Therefore, God exists.

Speaking of amusement and classification, to whoever it was who posted the link to YSaC several weeks ago: THANK YOU. It's now one of my favorite stops, and I'm not a-lyin'. ;P

Here's a some short clips from a Teleskiing film.

Wow, that's impressive. (Fun tune, too.) Thanks so much for all of the information!

And SC have you received the print yet?

It's stunning. Gorgeous. I can't wait to give it to her. Let me know when you get the check.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | December 11, 2009 7:33 PM

Is he mining PZ's blogroll?

He dropped a cut-n-paste standard on mine a few nights ago, but I think he was just following links out of one of the live comment threads he was spamming here... mighta been the 'little woman' one... I know I was in that one, think I saw his crazy there...

Gotta say, it's nice of him...

I mean, sure, he's a raving psycho leaving messages could probably easily get him busted for uttering death threats in most jurisdictions, but at least he remembers the little people when he does.

I just deleted it without comment, blocked the IP, lest I wind up with a carpet of 5,000 or so more to delete later. Guy's got issues*.

(*/Please to consider this as my qualifying bid for the Understatement Olympics.)

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 11, 2009 10:07 PM

Goats on fire, people!!
We be needin some TUNES in here!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3djKXcsqDM8

Posted by: boygenius | December 11, 2009 10:28 PM

Goats? Fire?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65Y_Vz8pq20

Posted by: frozen_midwest, Evil Overlord Local #25, Standards Committee | December 11, 2009 11:25 PM

Speaking of amusement and classification, to whoever it was who posted the link to YSaC several weeks ago: THANK YOU. It's now one of my favorite stops, and I'm not a-lyin'.

Might have been me - I have a fondness for sites featuring smart & snarky people. I sometimes post over there, about as often as I do here.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 11, 2009 11:52 PM

Um… the s was missing, and I inserted it.

Posted by: Dust | December 12, 2009 12:12 AM

2) how does one invest in goldfutures?

I don't know--stocking up on tradeables appeals to me-things like: vodka, diapers, condoms, toliet paper-you know, things other people want and need.

and goats, firey, burning goats...

Posted by: Alan B | December 12, 2009 5:26 AM

#247

I still trust you implicitly, Lynna. I never said anything else. All I pointed out is that the comparable maps in the UK have the non-geological geography (?!) printed on them as well. In the U.K. with its surface coverage (drift deposits) I would be better advised to follow the underlying OS map!

In this neck of the woods any bare rock is soon covered by soil and planting by conservationists wanting to return it "to nature". "Nature" in this case would be dense, dark, deciduous forest with wolves and wild boar (plus the occasional bear) but this is not, of course, what they want.

Seriously, I shouldn't be but I am amazed at how little vegetation there is over wide areas of the US. To see the solid geology in the UK, just laid out in front of one, would be amazing!

(Incidentally, I would love to be able to just drop in as I am passing. Unfortunately my parachute training has lapsed and last time I tried they wouldn't let me open up the door of the 747 at 35,000 feet to get out.)

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | December 12, 2009 5:47 AM

Perhaps I don't understand the idea of futures.

I assumed that I could somehow put in a bid to sell gold for say $800 in a year, in the expectation that the price will have dropped well below that by then. Someone who believes Beck, might in turn hope to see gold at $1500 by then, and will thus take me up on my offer.

In other news, the mouses are fat this Winter, so I don't think I need to feed the cat anytime soon.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | December 12, 2009 7:26 AM

how does one invest in goldfutures?

I hope this question wasn't serious, because otherwise I'd be forced to answer at length.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | December 12, 2009 8:15 AM

Incidentally, I would love to be able to just drop in as I am passing. Unfortunately my parachute training has lapsed and last time I tried they wouldn't let me open up the door of the 747 at 35,000 feet to get out.

A few weeks training with Josh will get you ready to jump out of perfectly good airplanes. Here's a song to get you into the right frame of mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtctYpXkoL0

Posted by: Alan B | December 12, 2009 8:37 AM

#253 Dania

*And the sound quality of the video you linked to... terrible.

In my opinion, nothing, ever, could improve the sound quality of that cacophony! Less is definitely more!

(But we're all different so don't take that as being critical of your taste in dreadful music.)

(/removes tongue from cheek)

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | December 12, 2009 9:19 AM

Alan B #259

You're not offending me. I was a submariner. Instead of jumping out of functioning aircraft I went to sea in a ship designed to sink.

Posted by: Alan B | December 12, 2009 9:51 AM

On a somewhat more geological subject:

Desert Varnish - no, not a layer of sugar lit by a chef's blow torch. Not "dessert", Desert.

Never having seen it myself, can you still identify the underlying rock from looking at a hand specimen covered with desert varnish? [And yes, I do know you can turn it over or break it open! Thank you for the 'reminder, Ed. (Ed. Pleasure!)] Does it just darken it or does it affect the surface texture or the optical properties? - colour, reflectance etc. Would you see oolites or the fine crystalline structure of a medium grained igneous rock? (We do have a simlar problem but caused by lichens - some of which love oolitic limestone and pepper it with block spots. Also rhyolites at a favourite quarry get covered with a blue-green lichen.)

As a thank you for the answer here is something you might not have seen on the "Share and Enjoy!" theme:

Glenn Morton (OEC) shows there is not enough time to produce dessert desert varnish with Flood geology and a young earth:

With this as a background, what is one to conclude when we find this same type of varnish coating Permian sand grains in the Zechstein of the North Sea? The Permian rocks are from the very middle of the supposedly flood deposited rocks. This should be the time of the maximal flooding of the earth, yet here we find desert varnish which requires at least 300 years to form. Not only this, the sand grains which are coated with this slow-forming film, are found in shape of sand dunes like those found in arid regions today. (Ruffell and Shelton, p. 305) Clearly this evidence shows that there was at least a 300 year interval in the middle of the flood. This is something that the young-earth creationists never tell you!

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/varnish.htm

Posted by: Alan B | December 12, 2009 10:03 AM

#255 Sili

My idea of wining:

http://www.mkweb.co.uk/clubs_societies/images/WineTasting.gif

or

http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/w/wine-tasting.asp
(especially #2 and #5)

[Re-reads #255. Oh. Sorry. Misread 'whining'. My fault - too much scrumpy. As you were.]

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a_ray_in_dilbert_space#6e51c | December 12, 2009 10:31 AM

Gold futures are like any other option--you could bet that gold will rise or that it will fall. You would do so through a commodities trader. You can also "lease" gold. Personally, I think gold has gone about as fur as it can go. However, much of the recent rise has been driven by the fall of the dollar, and that is only likely to continue. If investments were certain, we'd all be rich.

Posted by: SC OM | December 12, 2009 11:00 AM

Kropotkin on Canada and Russia:

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/kropotkin/KropCanada.pdf

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 12, 2009 2:12 PM

Well, I would have been here sooner, but I couldn't sign in. Bleh!

Alan B., I knew what you meant, and understood what you said, about trusting me explicitly. I just thought it would be more fun to take umbrage. I was right.

BTW, thanks for the geological time summary @214. And many thanks for promising not to wear a bikini when you drop in. I hope you have already arranged with Josh to bring your parachuting skills up to par.

Thanks to 'Tis for the correction to the link for the Steward vs. Beck video.

SC @162 enjoyed the daliesque photo taken at City of the Rocks. I love that place, despite the high human traffic (all those rock climbers). In the mid 1800s, south-central Idaho was known more as a way-station for wagon trains passing through. Emigrants headed for Oregon and California left their marks on Register Rock at City of Rocks.
"We passed through a stone village composed of huge isolated rocks… called the City of Rocks…sublime, strange and wonderful." Margaret Frink, July 17, 1850.

I think Josh would like the Twin Sisters (two side-by-side massive rocks). The darker sister is composed of rock about 2.5 billion years old. The lighter sister is far younger, about 25 million years old.

Leland and I usually leave the hive-like activity at City of Rocks in order to camp. There's ample, seldom-visited areas in the nearby Albion Mountains.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | December 12, 2009 2:39 PM

The Christmas tree is up and decorated. It has, at my insistence, an angel on the top. This is so I can spring my Christmas joke on unsuspecting visitors.

Santa Claus was having a bad day. The elves were threatening to go out on strike, the reindeer had the mange, he was coming down with a cold, some of the toy shipments were late, he'd had a fight with the missus, just a generally bad day. Then in walked an angel with a Christmas tree who said, "Santa Claus, what should I do with this Christmas tree?"

Now you know why there are angels perched on top of Christmas trees.

Posted by: Owlmirror | December 12, 2009 3:08 PM

The 1:50,000 geology maps are based on the Ordinance Survey (OS) maps and the OS map format is printed lightly "behind" the geology.

Speaking of maps, I found a clip about some project by the Ordnance Survey to create even higher resolution 3-D electronic maps that depict the underlying terrain.

Also of interest to cartographiphiles was the story which linked to the above video, which was about myriahedral projection

Posted by: Owlmirror | December 12, 2009 4:01 PM

Also, simply because I myself was caught out by it at first:

ordnance : mounted guns; cannon. munitions. a government department dealing with military stores and materials. the Ordnance Survey.

ordinance : a law or rule made by a government or authority

+1

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 12, 2009 4:53 PM

Hugs are more effective than religion. I knew that, but now other people may have to admit it as well ... unless, of course, it only works for Canadians.

A new study finds Canadians who get hugs ‘all the time' are more likely to report better mental health, while regularly attending church did not lift respondents' spirits

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 12, 2009 5:11 PM

boygenius, you might think that the younger breast would be perkier, geologically speaking, but really, both breasts look pretty perky to the naked eye. There's a photo here: http://www.nps.gov/ciro/index.htm
and a photo (historical) plus a sketch here:
http://www.idahohistory.net/OTcityrocks.html

Posted by: destlund | December 12, 2009 6:19 PM

Hey, I just realized something! If you read trollspeak in Mooninite voices, it makes for further hilarity!

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 12, 2009 7:50 PM

Jesus is a-raisin'.

... unless, of course, it only works for Canadians.

LOL!

People have come to England and asked why it is so green. I tell them it's the mould!

:-D

They say if you can't see the Pennines from there it's raining. If you can, it's about to.

"Do you often have such fog?"
"No. Only when it's not raining."
– Asterix in Britain

"nine months winter, three months cold"
– proverb about the mountainous, windy area (up to 1000 m, so covered with spruce forest and stony potato fields) in Austria north of the Danube

"January, February, autumn and winter"
– The four seasons of... I forgot where. Sounds better in the original German, where "march" and "autumn" sound vaguely similar (März, Herbst).

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | December 12, 2009 8:00 PM

We have four seasons in Connecticut. Road construction, more road construction, less road construction, and politicians bickering about road construction.

Posted by: SC OM | December 12, 2009 8:11 PM

We have four seasons in Connecticut. Road construction, more road construction, less road construction, and politicians bickering about road construction.

Hee.

...and, grr.

Dear People: Connecticut is a beautiful state. Go to the country. Seriously. Hard to find prettier seasons.

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | December 12, 2009 8:18 PM

They have a cartoon of dinosaurs hopping. What else do you need? If there is a cartoon, that means they hopped*.

Seriously, though, I saw an interesting seminar by Steven Churchill, that made some similar* inferences regarding neanderthal energetics from bone structure. I don't have the knowledge to judge how well the models work, but it was an fun talk anyway.

*fucking end of story.
**similar not in that mode of locomotion was inferred, but similar in that something of the muscle function was inferred).

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | December 12, 2009 8:40 PM

'Tis Himself...hadn't heard. Sad. All the good Irish rockers owe a debt to the Clancy Bros.

Playing "The Parting Glass", and pouring one.

Posted by: SC OM | December 12, 2009 8:45 PM

Thank you for the links, 'Tis.

Posted by: mythusmage | December 12, 2009 8:52 PM

David, #163

First, my apologies for the delay. Now on to my reply.

I'm going by what General Relativity tells us. Namely, that mass bends space-time and that objects in motion with no other influence in effect follow that bending. The closer to a mass the greater the bending and so the greater the change in apparent direction. There are implications in this and I'm pointing out the implications.

Where the mythical gravitational wave is concerned, please remember that space-time must be bent by mass. No mass, no bending. The further away from a mass, the less space-time is bent. As two or more objects orbit their common center of mass there is an oscillation in the space-time around them, but it is not propagated through space because there is no way for this propagation to occur.

Now as you've noted electromagnetism, the strong force, and the weak force appear to arise from the curvature of space-time, though to a different degree, and possibly of a different type, than that which gives rise to gravity. The range of bending (to coin a term) would appear to be much shorter, while the curvature appears to be much steeper and so the force that arises from it much stronger. The end result would appear to be the appearance of subsidiary phenomenon, such as mediating particles and waves; with the waves being an expression of the particles, while the particles are expression of the waves.

The difference with gravity lies in the range of bending; which, as far as we know, is infinite. We get photons and gluons etc. because the bending they are associated with is finite and very short.

(Then again, this could be just a wild assumption on my part.)

So it is my contention that where the nature of electromagnetism etc. allows for particles and waves, the nature of gravity does not.

Or to put it another way, that which gives rise to electromagnetic etc. charge is what goes charging off into space. An electromagnetic charge has greater endurance, and so it has a greater range than the other two forces. Mass on the other hand does not go charging off into space, and so cannot give rise to gravitational waves. In short, all waves have a local cause, it just that in the cause of the three forces those causes move.

There's more to be said on this, but I've blathered long enough, and I've got a persistent cold.

Posted by: mythusmage | December 12, 2009 8:57 PM

On Seasons

We have four seasons here: Rainy season (which is sometimes cancelled), fire season, tourist season, and preparing for tourist season.

Others say we have only three seasons: Preparing for Comic Con, Comic Con, and recovering from Comic Con.

Posted by: llewelly | December 12, 2009 9:00 PM

As two or more objects orbit their common center of mass there is an oscillation in the space-time around them, but it is not propagated through space because there is no way for this propagation to occur.

What do you mean by "not propagated?" Does the effect simply disappear? If so, at what distance?

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 12, 2009 9:23 PM

'Tis, I grew up in Michigan, and spent my earlier career there. Now I live near Pleasant Prairie (within 15 miles), and I was through there yesterday on an errand for the Redhead. For those of you from outside the area, Pleasant Prairie is a suburb of Kenosha, WI. The Chiwaukee metroplex, as used by Asimov and myself, describes the strip of (mostly) overlapping cities between Chicago and Milwaukee along the lake shore.

You showed a infamous sign near there from your last trip our way. The "college" is located at 42° 40' 48.83" N, 87° 57' 03.96" W (Google Earth), and the sign is a tenth of a mile NNW from the college. The college has writing on the roof...

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a_ray_in_dilbert_space#6e51c | December 12, 2009 9:26 PM

Mythusmage, I am afraid I don't understand your point about the "oscillation" from two orbiting objects not propagating. That makes no sense. The gravitational field has not limit to its range, so why couldn't a wave propagate in this field--just as it does for the electromagnetic field. Both have 1/r dependence for their potentials and unlimited range. If you can get electromagnetic waves, than there is no reason to suspect you won't also get gravitational waves.

In fact, I rather doubt you could construct a gravitational field that didn't give you gravitational waves.

Posted by: mythusmage | December 12, 2009 9:42 PM

rap, #200

What if we've gotten it all wrong and waves are local? In other words, that the phenomenon we call a wave in energy physics is an expression of a deeper phenomenon that expresses itself locally?

Posted by: mythusmage | December 12, 2009 10:04 PM

Llewelly, #302

There is no medium through which it could be propagated. The photon is the medium through which an electromagnetic wave is propagated, it is my contention that gravity --- because of the way it arises --- has no such mediating particle.

It may be gravity has a mediating particle, but such a thing is only perceivable at a higher scale of perception than we now enjoy. In other words, we're too close and too intimate with the trees to even know a forest exists. If we existed at a greater scale then reality would be a very different things and assumptions we are so sure of would be known to be rather silly.

Posted by: mythusmage | December 12, 2009 10:16 PM

Owlmirror, #309

Ask GR, all I know is that when an object gets near a mass they change direction.

Why? Apparently it's because the direction the photon was going in changes direction. It's not a matter of a force acting upon the photon, but on local conditions (the direction of the direction an object is moving in in this case) changing.

Yes, this does mean that when our Sun comes near a mass the mass of Ceres it had not be close to before, the motion of the Sun is altered to come closer to the smaller object. If our Sun were to suddenly draw closer to the Milky Way's black hole that black hole would 'fall' towards the Sun.

In short, everything in the universe is downhill from everything else. That is what GR tells us.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 12, 2009 10:31 PM

Mythusmage, your idea is tripping off my BS detector, but not being a physicist, I'm not quite competent to argue against it. As with all such ideas, why are you presenting it at this blog, and not in a paper submitted for publication? Only the latter has a chance for a trip to Stockholm.

I'm presently running Einstein at home, looking for gravity waves in the background.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 12, 2009 11:33 PM

The Thread is, indeed, many things to many people. At the moment, I have no clue what you people are talking about. Carry on.

Posted by: frozen_midwest, Evil Overlord Local #25, Standards Committee | December 12, 2009 11:56 PM

snow, sailing, ties to cephalopods/elder gods

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WrA0iGsYqk

Posted by: SC OM | December 13, 2009 12:11 AM

yeah, that hit the spot.

I knew it would. :)

[FUCK. I fear that makes me some some of comfort person, which I'm so not; I just like good music; I'll sing or play or dance to the pretty songs... oh, fuck...]

Posted by: boygenius | December 13, 2009 12:22 AM

Like I told you
What I said
Steal your face right off your head.

Posted by: SEF | December 13, 2009 4:56 AM

The latest freak show in Norway.

It will be hard for the pareidolia folks to make a Jesus or Mary out of that without resorting to modern "art" interpretations.

Posted by: Dania | December 13, 2009 6:18 AM

A new study finds Canadians who get hugs ‘all the time' are more likely to report better mental health, while regularly attending church did not lift respondents' spirits.

I'll never understand how looking at a tortured man hanging on a cross is somehow supposed to lift your spirit. Especially when you're being told that it was all because of you and your sinful nature...

__________________________________

SC, @317: Thank you for that. :)

Posted by: mythusmage | December 13, 2009 6:34 AM

Nerd, #314

Because it's not a formal submission but rather my way of getting folks to think differently about things. What did evolution teach us about our place in the natural world? What has General Relativity taught us about gravity? It is up to better, and better educated, people than I to follow up on my proposal.

Posted by: mythusmage | December 13, 2009 6:59 AM

Snoof, #315

You aint hearin' too good, is ya? Let's go over the basics again...

Mass curves space-time. How? We don't really know, all we know is that it does. This bending is strongest --- in effect, steepest --- the closer to the mass you get, becoming weaker --- which is to say, closer to flat --- the further away you get from the mass.

Apparently electromagnetism, the strong force, and the weak force also arise from the curving of space-time, but what causes that curving is unknown to us. But in those cases the curvature is so steep and of such short range emergent phenomenon such as charges and wavicles are possible; whereas with gravity the curvature is so shallow and of such great range that emergent properties such a charges and wavicles are not possible.

I guess I just don't know how to explain it better. But maybe this will help...

Think of the source of electromagnetic charge, positive or negative, as being like mass, but curving space-time for such a short distance we really can't detect it. When accumulated into a group of like things we get the wavicles we call quarks and leptons, the quarks coming together as hadrons. One analogy would be of a stellar cluster with hundreds of stars. Hundreds of masses producing a "mass" gravitational effect much as our electromagnetic sources enmass produce a charged particle we call a photon, proton, or electron. When it comes to gravity we're not dealing with emergent properties of emergent properties, we are for all intents dealing with the source of it all.

In other words, our universe could be the graviton we're looking for, and gravity waves could be our universe and all other associated universes.

But no, you're not going to convince me that two rotating masses create gravity waves because you haven't shown me how. Not according to how the universe apparently works. It would be like demonstrating strong force waves at the scale the space-time curvature that gives rise to the strong force arises.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, space-time doesn't work that way. Waves like weak force waves arise from another cause than oscillating space-time, and require a mediating particle in order to propagate however far it is they propagate. What I am saying is that waves are bound to their corresponding particle and cannot exist independently of them. That is, you cannot have an force without an associated particle.

I wish I could say it better, but I just haven't the tools. Sorry.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 13, 2009 7:56 AM

Mythusmage, you just lost most of your credibility. Trolls who try to get us to "think differently" are a bunch of bored, and boring, sophist philosophers. Philosophy without evidence is sophistry. So, I'll not even consider what you say, as you said nothing serious.

Posted by: SEF | December 13, 2009 8:40 AM

a divine intelligence in the DNA that is capable of resonating with the natural frequency of the earth in order to create crop circles.

More a very human, destructive semi-intelligence which is capable of using ropes and planks.

What exactly is the natural frequency of the earth (/ Earth) anyway? Are we talking something along the lines of those ringing diamond star cores? Or just its periodicity within the solar system - viz a year! Or the gravity periodicity for hypothetical tunnels through the planet. Or perhaps some imagined harmonic/inharmonic spectrum of humus instead.

Posted by: destlund | December 13, 2009 8:59 AM

To revisit the seasons topic, here in Texas we have several dozen seasons that happen between November and March, in no particular order, often occurring for less than a day then repeating a few weeks later, followed by SUMMER.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | December 13, 2009 9:32 AM

SC OM #320

FUCK. I fear that makes me some some of comfort person

No chance of that. There's nothing comfortable about our SC.

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | December 13, 2009 10:42 AM

I have a little headache right now for Liam in fact. I might have had one parting glass too many, but well worth it.

Posted by: SEF | December 13, 2009 11:21 AM

It looks like they're talking about the Schumann resonances.

Not really any link to either crop circles or DNA (mundane or divine) though.

Posted by: blf | December 13, 2009 11:42 AM

Anybody happen to know what spelt flour is called/sold-as in France? Not for pies, I'm afraid,† but pancakes (USAian style). With baconsausage.

 †  Yes, I really am scared of pies. They have a tendency to hit you in the face.

Posted by: Josh | December 13, 2009 12:47 PM

Fucking SB. I did not hit submit.

Anyway, this was the other vid I was going to include:

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | December 13, 2009 1:21 PM

I kept scratching my head "what the hell is a silent monkey?"

Good thing I checked the link. I do loves me some Lord of lords.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | December 13, 2009 1:41 PM

Thanks for those videos, Josh.

My brother, who was an Airborne Ranger back in the day, told me: "There are three things that fall out of the sky. Rain, birdshit and fools."

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 13, 2009 1:42 PM

I JUST TURNED IN FINAL GRADES.

nothing personal, Carlie, but I hate you.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | December 13, 2009 1:49 PM

Thanks, Josh. Sorry, Sven. Would it help to know that I still have a deskload of administrative stuff to deal with before the college closes for the holiday, and I'm so far behind on research it makes me want to weep?

Posted by: blf | December 13, 2009 1:54 PM

Now if I can just crawl out from under the pile of unreturned email, undone laundry, unbought presents, and undecked halls, I'll be all set.

Decorate the halls with the laundry. The smell will drive you out so you can do your shopping and get the presents and, more importantly, alcohol. The wines, beers, and spirits will make it easy to deal with emails. And you won't smell the decorative laundry.

Oh, and congratulations!

Posted by: negentropyeater | December 13, 2009 2:14 PM

blf,

Anybody happen to know what spelt flour is called/sold-as in France?

farine d'épeautre

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 13, 2009 2:31 PM

What's up with all these born-again, evangelical christians managing private prisons? George C. Zoley, Chairman and CEO of GEO was mentioned in several news articles, but his delivery of Jesus Christ along with supposed rehab was not mentioned. Christian PR firms tout the Jesus angle openly, but other media outlets skip right past it.

I became suspicious when news of immigrants dying in out-of-the-way prisons near the US/Mexico border, of pregnant women not receiving medical care while incarcerated, and of general mismanagement by prison officials with surprisingly little experience pinged my "christian agenda" monitor. Sure enough, part of the trouble can be traced back to government tax dollars being spent to put incompetent fundies in charge of prisons.

NPR's Fresh Air program aired a podcast on December 10th in which some of the problems with these prisons were discussed in detail. However, NPR also missed the fundie christian angle. In the NPR story, a prisoner dies because he was not given medical attention for epilepsy, a condition the prison officials knew about -- but all they did was put the guy in solitary confinement. The NPR story also mentions the lack of expertise in the top management.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 13, 2009 2:51 PM

Josh @345: Holy crap! Still gotta say that it looks mostly like fun to me. Why was the female in the third video looking at her feet so often?

Josh @346: Okay, bigger Holy Crap! Those guys are wearing so much equipment they can barely stand up. No so much like fun.

Posted by: Alan B | December 13, 2009 3:11 PM

#333 Josh gets the Nelson!

Josh asked

Alan, have you come across any references/pages specifically on the "Geological Column" or "Geologic Column" during your "share and enjoy" research?

I'm working on something and am trying to amass as many relevant writings on The ColumnTM as I can. I would hate to have missed something that you turned up* during your reading.

Hi Josh

Well (disparately desperately trying to marshall his thoughts). The key word seems to be "relevant". They have written an awful lot. I did cover a paper by John Woodmorappe on fossils in the wrong place in the column and he referenced a number of items.

Also, you have the argument between the "traditionalists" (i.e. AiG, US & Australian model) versus the European/British model. Some of the papers referenced in a previous thread might have some references.

You, of course, have Glenn Morton (OEC) who shows all the Systems are present in many places, including (nearly) the whole of China:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/geo.htm

Are you thinking of their philosophy to the Geologic(al) Column, "evidence" it doesn't exist in the form geologists use it, alternative models to it or what? It will help to narrow it down a bit. Otherwise, I would guess that there is an awful lot ... Also OEC or YEC or both?

You have obviously tried searching on the AiG site and in the Creation version of Wikipedia ...

Get back to us with a bit more of an idea of what you want. I'm sure I can help.

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 13, 2009 3:27 PM

Where's Jadehawk? Did she suddenly get a life?

but it is not propagated through space because there is no way for this propagation to occur.

See, that's Einstein's big insight – that there are waves which are not wiggles in a material medium. In this case, spacetime itself, the vacuum itself, wiggles.

Or in other words, it's a particle that just flies through space like a bullet. Wheeee!!! Remember, wave = particle.

For electromagnetism, the electromagnetic field wiggles. For gravity, the gravitational field wiggles, and apparently the gravitational field is the same as spacetime itself – at least, no differences have been found so far, as far as I've understood the matter.

Now as you've noted electromagnetism, the strong force, and the weak force appear to arise from the curvature of space-time, though to a different degree, and possibly of a different type, than that which gives rise to gravity. The range of bending (to coin a term) would appear to be much shorter

Erm... both electromagnetics and gravity have infinite range and diminish with the square of the distance.

(Then again, this could be just a wild assumption on my part.)

In fact, it is a wild assumption on your part. <vehement nodding>

Or to put it another way, that which gives rise to electromagnetic etc. charge is what goes charging off into space.

I'm afraid this is just jibberish. Are you trying to make a pun on "charge"?

An electromagnetic charge has greater endurance

"Endurance"? When you invent new technical terms, it's your duty to define them.

We have sources of electromagnetic energy.

There is no such thing as electromagnetic energy.

In the case of a lamp it produces the wavicle we call a photon.

It's basically kinetic energy that is donated to a virtual photon which becomes real in the process.

A photon being the phenomenon that arises when whatever it is that bends space-time in the manner that produces electromagnetic charge is produced however it is produced.

Electromagnetic charge is not produced. It is conserved. It cannot be net created or net destroyed; the sum of all charges in a closed system is constant for all eternity.

What I'm saying is, space-time bending however it occurs has a localized cause. In the case of electromagnetism it gets sent off gallivanting through space, while in the case of gravity it doesn't travel so much or so fast.

What, if anything, makes you think so?

Here's a question (which I just thought of) for you. Would we have electromagnetic waves if photons traveled at a speed of hundreds or even thousands of miles an hour?

Yes, because the photon is the wave.

You are the one who brought up the term "wavicle"! Do you sometimes understand it and sometimes not?

there's nothing like poking people out of their comfort zones. :evilgrin:

So... you... admit to trolling? Srsly?

There is no medium through which it could be propagated. The photon is the medium through which an electromagnetic wave is propagated, it is my contention that gravity --- because of the way it arises --- has no such mediating particle.

Wrong.

The photon is the electromagnetic wave.

It is a traveling disturbance of the electromagnetic field.

It's not the photon that wiggles up and down. Spacetime itself does. The vacuum does. The photon is the wiggle, not that which wiggles.

In short, everything in the universe is downhill from everything else. That is what GR tells us.

Well, no. Everything is first uphill and then downhill from everything else; this doesn't differ from Newton's theory of gravity.

my way of getting folks to think differently about things

Bullshit. If you actually want to reach anyone, and be taken seriously as a bonus, you need to publish. This here is just me pretending not to have a life – it's not the scientific community.

Think of the source of electromagnetic charge, positive or negative, as being like mass, but curving space-time for such a short distance we really can't detect it. When accumulated into a group of like things we get the wavicles we call quarks and leptons, the quarks coming together as hadrons. One analogy would be of a stellar cluster with hundreds of stars. Hundreds of masses producing a "mass" gravitational effect much as our electromagnetic sources enmass produce a charged particle we call a photon, proton, or electron.

You're making this up. Nice story.

Also, it's really a mistake to view the other forces as curving spacetime. We only say that gravity does because LOCALLY it is impossible to distinguish between a reference fram in a gravitational field and an accelerated reference frame. Both change the curvature tensor of spacetime. Einstein spent decades trying to work out a similar framework for electromagnetism and failed.

Oh, was this his "general field theory"?

mythusmage, I suspect your problem is you're trying to visualise physics using words and not math.

Thirded.

Every once in a while, a philosopher comes, takes a short look at biology, laughs his ass off, and proceeds to claim the biologists have no clue what they're doing – they have, after all, never managed to define the term "life".

It's very common in science that language just fails, and it's also very common that preconceived terms turn out to describe part of a continuum, so that any definition would be completely arbitrary (that's the case with "life").

Math, on the other hand, never fails. You can fail to understand it (don't believe I can do calculations with tensors!), but the math itself doesn't fail.

Physics cannot be really grasped without math. It cannot be handled without math.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 13, 2009 3:34 PM

our mission rucks are fucking heavy.

Posted by: Josh | December 13, 2009 3:44 PM

Are you thinking of their philosophy to the Geologic(al) Column, "evidence" it doesn't exist in the form geologists use it, alternative models to it or what?

Bingo.
I'm working on fleshing out (and developing further) the argument I made here:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/09/carlos_cerna_will_someday_dema.php#comment-1912388

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | December 13, 2009 3:55 PM

The Rules of Submarining

1. Ensure the number of surfaces equals the number of dives.

2. Keep people out of the water tanks and water out of the people tank.

3. Remember that your submarine was built by the lowest bidder.

Posted by: Josh | December 13, 2009 4:01 PM

I have one thing to say about any potential future I would have in the Silent Service:

U.S.S Thresher.

*shudder*

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | December 13, 2009 4:25 PM

'Tis,
My hat's off to you. Drowning and suffocating are my two highest on the "ways I don't want to die" list. Since subs could easily combine both, I think I'd be a quivering mess within minutes of descent.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | December 13, 2009 4:40 PM

Carlie,

I left the Navy 37 years ago. The submarine I was in, USS Gato (SSN 615), a sister-ship of Thresher, was scrapped 13 years ago. I've been given a couple of tours of submarines since then but I last went to sea in one in 1972.

Posted by: Josh | December 13, 2009 5:11 PM

129 crew and military and civilian technicians were killed.

Do you remember the movie Gray Lady Down? My father told me about the Thresher after we had finished watching that.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 13, 2009 5:32 PM

David @366: That was a thing of beauty. Thanks. Whole lot o' wiggling going on.

Posted by: Josh | December 13, 2009 5:39 PM

Yeah, drowning is not the way I want to step out.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 13, 2009 5:47 PM

I just realized that I wrote "human sherpa" up-thread, when I meant "human pack mule" -- of course, all sherpas are human (unless there has been an invasion of alien sherpas). Also, I did not mean to imply that because of my awesomeness, a sherpa should be enslaved to me for life. My apologies to sherpas everywhere.

'Tis, I loved the pics of you and of your brother. :-) Well done.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 13, 2009 5:55 PM

human pack mule

Posted by: Dania | December 13, 2009 6:00 PM

Yeah, drowning is not the way I want to step out.

Yes, that and being burnt to death. *shudder*

Posted by: Josh | December 13, 2009 6:14 PM

Yes, that and being burnt to death. *shudder*

Yep, yep. I'm okay with taking that one off the list, too.

Fire bad!

Fire BAD*!

*hit tip to Metallicops

Posted by: Josh | December 13, 2009 6:20 PM

We have a rigger detachment. They're on the DZ watching everything and they usually jump--yeah, with 'chutes that they've packed.

Sounds like an excellent quality assurance system.

Posted by: Dania | December 13, 2009 6:29 PM

Fire BAD*!

*hit tip to Metallicops

Heh.

And what do you fight fire with, Josh? ;)

Posted by: Josh | December 13, 2009 6:34 PM

Heh.

Ahhh, you know that one?

And what do you fight fire with, Josh? ;)

Napalm.

Next.

Posted by: Dania | December 13, 2009 6:39 PM

Ahhh, you know that one?

Yes... whatever that says about me.

Posted by: frozen_midwest, Evil Overlord Local #25, Standards Committee | December 13, 2009 6:47 PM

Carlie @376 - my brother would agree with you about being a quivering mass. He served on a sub tender (USS Hunley) in the early 70's; once I asked him if he ever considered serving on a sub and he said 'You'll never catch me on one of those sea-going tin cans!'

Posted by: SC OM | December 13, 2009 7:00 PM

(I thought a Sherpa was also the youngest, but it appears that's now a girl from CA.)

Huh. Wiki says it's still a 15-year-old Sherpa girl.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 13, 2009 7:07 PM

No pictures of snow, but with a couple of cams, the Keweenaw Research Center, which does winter testing for the Army, et al., north of MTU, gives you an idea of the Lake Superior snow belt. That should be enough for Jadehawk, with 55" this month.

Looking at the UP weather stations, it appear that KI Sawyer AFB, a B-52 base near Marquette, has been decommissioned. Nothing like driving into Marquette and seeing one of those huge planes overhead, coming in for a landing...

Posted by: Alan B | December 13, 2009 7:14 PM

Congratulations to Lynna, OM!!!!!!!!!

Very well deserved.

Posted by: SC OM | December 13, 2009 7:22 PM

fifteen? Ugh.

Yup. Rather impressive.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/may/25/everest.nepal

Posted by: frozen_midwest, Evil Overlord Local #25, Standards Committee | December 13, 2009 7:31 PM

And now for the North American Mid-Continental Winter Competition. The winner will be the first one to answer all these questions correctly:

1) Where's the car?

2) Where's the street?

3) If I follow those dim red lights ahead of me, will I end up in someone else's driveway?

Posted by: Josh | December 13, 2009 7:43 PM

I didn't tell you, but you got +15 just for the reference. :)

I almost posted the video--but I wasn't sure I wanted everyone here to know that I can find fucking humor in stuff that's that fucking crude.

"We're like...on our motherfucking way."

Posted by: Dania | December 13, 2009 8:05 PM

I wasn't sure I wanted everyone here to know that I can find fucking humor in stuff that's that fucking crude.

And you so weren't expecting to discover that you were not the only one here...

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 13, 2009 8:24 PM

Jeez, quit being so damn coy and just link it!

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 13, 2009 8:36 PM

let's see if I can get fancy here:

<a href="http.www.URLhere.net">text here</a>

the quote-marks are necessary.

Posted by: Josh | December 13, 2009 8:44 PM

Okay, trying this...

TEST

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 13, 2009 9:07 PM

The paper on the hopping hadrosaurs. Unsurprisingly, it doesn't quite say what the newspaper article on it makes it say.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 13, 2009 10:52 PM

Josh @395: Hey, I resemble that video.

Dania @411, many thanks. Considering that I lurked on Pharyngula for a long time, and was scared shitless and simultaneously thrilled by all the brain power on display, it was a big deal just to start commenting. To be honored with a Molly was something I didn't expect.

'Tis @413

Our Lynna is an OM, bringing grace and wisdom to an otherwise mediocre lot of people like Nerd, Josh and me.

Thanks, Alan B. I now feel like I should contribute more than mormon madness and truly awful doggerel for geologists -- but that's not likely. ~:-)

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 13, 2009 11:01 PM

I think I should continue not living up to "bringing grace and wisdom to an otherwise mediocre lot of people" --
Beer Good
Dickweed Bad
(I claim Josh as my mentor.)

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 13, 2009 11:25 PM

Ai, yi, yi, those squid that washed up on the beach in Oregeon died of hypothermia.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 13, 2009 11:58 PM

Sven, "stunned" is right. Bloody nature. I hadn't realized until you pointed it out that they've been moving north for more than a decade. Pushing at the limits.

BTW, many thanks for the fine salute on the Molly thread -- and it was the first post on that thread too. Tentacled perfection.

Posted by: Owlmirror | December 14, 2009 3:10 AM

Heh.

Today's xkcd looks like it is aimed directly at mythusmage's fuzzy physics.

Posted by: consciousness razor | December 14, 2009 3:24 AM

Rorschach: I like the Tom Waits tunes... I'd never heard Chocolate Jesus before.

And I said, "Let there be more music for the thread," and there was more music. And I saw how good the music was. I separated the music from the silence. It was pretty tough, let me tell you.

John Coltrane - I'm Old Fashioned

Matt Wilson's Arts & Crafts Quartet - Feel the Sway

Jaco Pastorius - Reza / Giant Steps / Reza

Posted by: consciousness razor | December 14, 2009 3:35 AM

In reality, that last link should be called:

"Reza / Blackbird / Reza / Giant Steps / Reza"

It's basically a second rondo (five-part) form, in which each section is a song form.

Or, if you feeling particularly insolent, you could just call it a "medley".

Posted by: Alan B | December 14, 2009 5:27 AM

#439 Stephen Wells and others

There is of course a simple way of dealing with it.

IGNORE HIM

Posted by: Rorschach | December 14, 2009 5:33 AM

as for example when you claim it doesn't allow for gravitational waves when in fact it requires them

I've been watching Alan's posts on this for a while now, and am a little concerned that he might have lost it a bit....again

I'd never heard Chocolate Jesus before.

I think I actually already posted that on one of the last incarnations of the thread, my bad...

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | December 14, 2009 7:20 AM

I was linked to this webcomic for the story but I suspect those shirts will be of interest to the locals. (Codeword: PaleontoLOLgy.)

Posted by: SEF | December 14, 2009 8:18 AM

"Off"-topic:

Stephen Venner's complaint of being taken out of context doesn't help him. The damning part of his world-view is that he admires as virtues the twin vices he shares with rival religious nutters:

He told the paper the insurgents could "perhaps be admired for their conviction to their faith and their sense of loyalty to each other".

These vices are a big part of religious evil - his as well as theirs. The badness of his world-view is not simply a result of his opinion being put alongside recent figures for deaths. That's merely his shallow perception of it - perhaps his Morton's Demon helping him to avoid seeing the real problem.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | December 14, 2009 8:25 AM

HAPPY QM-DAY!!

Thus begins the time of Agnostica, the end of which can never be determined with absolute certainty!

Happy Monkey!

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 14, 2009 9:51 AM

Codeword: PaleontoLOLgy.

Ooh. With glow-in-the-dark skeletons underneath the body outlines! Too cool.

The horror that is LOLSAURPODZ. With lots of inside jokes.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 14, 2009 10:12 AM

Apparently there was a recently. I'll look into this further. Photos would be nice, or at least the figures for numbers of pterosaurs attending, menus for related dinners, etc.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 14, 2009 10:18 AM

Alan B:
Rorschach was referring to Alan "mythusmage" Kellogg.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 14, 2009 12:17 PM

Thanks, RTL! Downloaded.
(If that's, like, legal. If it's not, I didn't. Won't. heh)

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | December 14, 2009 12:23 PM

I've been watching Alan's posts on this for a while now, and am a little concerned that he might have lost it a bit....again

Has bigfoot mad another appearance?

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 14, 2009 1:35 PM

Octopus tool use?
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2009/12/octopus_carries_around_coconut_shells_as_suits_of_armour.php

Posted by: Josh | December 14, 2009 1:50 PM

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2009/12/octopus_carries_around_coconut_shells_as_suits_of_armour.php

Oh, that is so fucking cool.

Posted by: Josh | December 14, 2009 2:07 PM

...and in a pinch, assemble them as a cave in which to hide.

That was the thing that got me.

Note that one octopus was sitting on his "helmet" -- which, IIRC, is a time-honored maneuver.

Indeed it is.

"Why're you guys all sitting on your helmuts?"

"So the **** don't shoot our balls off."

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 14, 2009 2:16 PM

I want to see the octopus use them as castanets.

Los Loligos!

Posted by: Dania | December 14, 2009 2:36 PM

"Why're you guys all sitting on your helmuts?"

Apocalypse Now reference?

Posted by: Josh | December 14, 2009 2:43 PM

Apocalypse Now reference?

More points for you!

I was too lazy to go find the actual quote, though...so it's a paraphrase.

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 14, 2009 3:01 PM

Russell usually makes a lot more sense than that.

Many quotes seem to have been retyped by PZ from books. All typos the spellchecker didn't catch are still in there.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 14, 2009 3:13 PM

There are unanswered queries online about those lyrics dating back to 2004.

It's like a left-handed monkey wrench, isn't it?

Posted by: Alan B | December 14, 2009 3:58 PM

#454 Sven DiMilo

Ah. Mistaken identity. It's OK Ed, we didn't loose nuthink.

[Ed. (quietly)Except your marbles ...]

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 14, 2009 5:04 PM

I think it's a telling detail that Alan B thought that Sven was referring to him, as in losing marbles and whatnot. Really, Alan B, most of what you post is coherent. ~:-) (Ed., you stay out of this.)

On boy, more touchy, feely stuff than we knew about:

The human sensory experience is far more complex and nuanced than previously thought, according to a new study. Researchers report that the human body has an entirely unique and separate sensory system aside from the nerves that give most of us the ability to touch and feel.
     Surprisingly, this sensory network is located throughout our blood vessels and sweat glands, and is for most people, largely imperceptible...
     The answer appeared to be in the presence of sensory nerve endings on the small blood vessels and sweat glands embedded in the skin.
     "For many years, my colleagues and I have detected different types of nerve endings on tiny blood vessels and sweat glands, which we assumed were simply regulating blood flow and sweating. We didn't think they could contribute to conscious sensation. ..."

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | December 14, 2009 6:25 PM

Why would anyone kiss a frog? They might end up with Prince Philip.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 14, 2009 6:35 PM

or worse

Posted by: Rorschach | December 14, 2009 7:05 PM

Yeah sorry Alan B, I was indeed talking about the "mythusmage" character, not you...:-)

A pleasant holiday is coming to an end, very annoying !

Posted by: Josh | December 14, 2009 7:12 PM

The name is introduced with "nov. taxa", and the words "genus" and "species" do not occur anywhere in the paper except in the references to the supplementary information.

Ha! I thought you might bring that up.

Posted by: David Marjanović | December 14, 2009 7:17 PM

A pleasant holiday is coming to an end, very annoying !

Well, I don't know. A little bit of wind, and all those skyscrapers will be washed into the river or whatever it is. :-/

or worse

Made me twist and shake in disgust.

Posted by: Josh | December 14, 2009 7:26 PM

*looks at the picture linked to in #484*

Why do people persist in building on barrier islands?

*shakes head*

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 14, 2009 9:42 PM

Jadehawk, it appears TypePad made a change near the end of last week. Caused all sorts of problems. My work around is found here. Essentially, you can't get the previous dialog box to share the e-mail, so you have to set your account to automatically share the email. Access typepad from my link or google. Account is on the upper right. Save before exiting.

That ain't lots of snow. You can still see the objects. ;)

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | December 14, 2009 10:03 PM

I'm on vacation in a place that doesn't have any snow...

(Looks shocked 'n scandalized...)

But... But...

Oh! You mean you got rained out, right?

(Man, I hate that... But what can ya do... Mope around the lodge, attach yerself to the bar/stress test your liver, try not to look out the windows, 'cos that's just depressing...)

I can report snow, but have taken no pictures yet. We do now appear to be getting the steady supply that is supposed to be standard 'round here, tho'. They'd been threatening rain tomorrow, but revised that just yesterday--rain now called on account of snow.

So all good. Winter as it should be, finally. And I've been out on the board a bit, tho' just on smallish hills close to the city so far.

Also good news: the board is new--replacing one stolen at the tail end of last season--and is working out beautifully. Turns by reading your mind. This thing is the cat's pyjamas*. I am most pleased.

(*/I searched long and hard for the descriptive phrase least likely to be applied to a snowboard by an annoying, trying-too-hard-to-be-way-cool online reviewer. This was what I came up with.)

Posted by: SC OM | December 14, 2009 10:30 PM

*looks at the picture linked to in #484*

Why do people persist in building on barrier islands?

*shakes head*

Oh, yes! Thank you! It finally clicked and I remembered the name of the book I keep telling people about but could not recall the name of for like two years! It's Against the Tide, by Cornelia Dean. I think I read it in anticipation of a talk she was giving at WHOI, which I didn't in the end attend, but I liked the book. I feel much better now.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 15, 2009 1:40 AM

Crazy emails from twisted mormons are making the rounds again-- this one was posted by an ex-mo, and, for a welcome change, did not come straight to me. It's aimed at True Believers only, and demonstrates the latter day rehabilitation of the Catholic Church in the eyes of mormons. Being homophobic together makes for great friendships.

Subject: Rome, Italy, Many reasons why we follow a prophet....
     Jane Parker, who is the late Elder Wirthlin's daughter, told us the following story today in Relief Society. She went to a talk by a lawyer for the European Area (each area of the Church has a legal department). The talk was about the ability to have a temple built in Rome, Italy which was announced as a done deal in conference recently. He stated that they knew they needed to have contact with the cardinals of the Catholic Church to see if they would approve or go along with our desire to have a temple built there. He heard of a reception at which the cardinals would be present, and the legal department for the church was also invited. He approached one cardinal and talked to him about the issue. The cardinal said, "We will support you in any effort you want because of your support of Proposition 8 in California."
     Jane's comment was that she doesn't think the Church people in California who worked so long and so hard on getting that proposition passed and many even suffered persecution probably know that they were the instruments in getting a temple built in Rome, Italy.
Barton W. Marcois
President, Eagle Foundation

The lawyer ...was John Zackrison... John told us that the Church has owned this temple site for several years. But it was close enough to the Vatican that in order to build a temple there, it required consents from both the Mayor of Rome and the Pope.
     At the reception described below, John met the one Cardinal who was charged with approving the temple on behalf of the Pope. The cardinal arranged a followup mtg. and John invited the European Area President to attend. He could not attend, but sent his counselor. At the mtg. the cardinal soon discovered that both he and the counselor spoke French. Then they discovered that both of them were from the same city (Bordeaux). And, then, they learned that both had gone to the same school!
     Who can deny the Lord's hand in all of this?
Joseph I. Bentley, Director, Orange County Public Affairs

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | December 15, 2009 4:15 AM

Psst! Nutysta, there was a thread devoted to that video.

Posted by: Alan B | December 15, 2009 7:03 AM

The large majority of people writing here seem to know all about html and key codes. For the 1 or 2 remaining [Ed. Actually, Alan, it's only you]. Thanks Ed. /sarc. As I was saying before I was so rudely interupted [Ed. sniff], for the only other person who knows less than I do, you might be interested in:

http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/accents/codealt.html

which shows how to get all sorts of odd things like:

™ © § ž (and other Czech characters) ¶ ¼ ½ ¾ ± µ ‰ and just about every accent you ever didn't want to have to use.

(Since I just typed these in by the Alt Key + number keypad method, it shows they work in messages here - or, at least, they do in the Preview.)

Posted by: Josh | December 15, 2009 7:50 AM

It's Against the Tide, by Cornelia Dean.

I've heard of this book, but I haven't read it. I will have to check it out.

Posted by: Josh | December 15, 2009 8:11 AM

Ahhh, I had looked past this one:

http://www.icr.org/article/beware-dangerous-definitions/

and it's very useful. Thanks.

Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier | December 15, 2009 11:51 AM

The people at FSTDT are laughing at Wiley for saying that atheists have no raison d'être "raisin date".

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 15, 2009 12:41 PM

Feynmaniac, the "raisin date" comment was hilarious. I also have no raisin date, but perhaps I've been using the wrong search terms on the "have sex tonight" websites.

As I understand it, the virtue of having a date with a raisin is that you can eat (literally, no innuendo intended) your date after, um, whatever sex you can have with a raisin. It's like praying mantis dating, but more socially acceptable.

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | December 15, 2009 1:23 PM

Happy Mollyday, Lynna!

Posted by: Josh | December 15, 2009 1:59 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34427772/ns/world_news-asiapacific/?GT1=43001

Boooooooooooooommmmm.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | December 15, 2009 2:11 PM

Congrats for wiley for his stupidity getting recognition.

Other news from the Philippines:
http://www.fridae.com/newsfeatures/2009/11/25/9381.philippine-lgbts-protest-discriminatory-ruling-against-gay-political-party

Posted by: MrFire | December 15, 2009 2:23 PM

Testing...

Fire bad!

Fire BAD

But...what did I do?

*sniff*

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | December 15, 2009 2:32 PM

No, no, fire good. See?

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 15, 2009 2:35 PM

Trees pretty. Fire bad.

Posted by: Josh | December 15, 2009 2:41 PM

first syllable sounds like reach!

Yeah, yeah...I love beaches too. A lot. Which is exactly why I wish people WOULD STOP BUILDING ON THEM.

Posted by: Alan B | December 15, 2009 2:57 PM

#503 John Morales

Hi John: I am far too ignorant of html to suggest what I said was the last word, let alone the only word! There seem to be many different ways. At least I know that the ALT+Keypad numbers works for me.

I am only too aware of my lack of knowledge in both evolution/geology and in YEC/Flood(ism). I was genuine in my comments to RogerS and Alan C about wanting to know what the current thinking was. Trouble is they knew even less than I did!

On the side of the angels works for me. Thank you.

Posted by: Alan B | December 15, 2009 3:05 PM

Just a thought. The Creationists are so keen in putting -ist at the end of words. As in:

Evolutionist, Darwinist, catastrophist, uniformitarianist (I've seen it!)

Why shouldn't we start using the term "floodist"? Personally, I dislike the term "Flood Geology" because it suggests that their thinking about The Flood™ has something to do with the science of geology.

Posted by: Alan B | December 15, 2009 3:16 PM

"Raisin dates"

Some scholars have suggested that instead of martyrs for Islam being promised 70 (or was it 72?) "virgins" they were to be rewarded in "raisins".

I couldn't possibly comment ...

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 15, 2009 3:21 PM

Hasidism, as such, only goes back to the 18th century C.E. or so. Of course, the root claim that they make -- "the woman tempted me" -- is from a considerably earlier period in time; definitely earlier than ~100BC.

*shrug* So spot me a milennium or two either way and it was close enough.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | December 15, 2009 3:38 PM

Submitted without comment.

Posted by: MrFire | December 15, 2009 4:52 PM

Testing for fun:

Atheists “Я” Us

...Kinda works.

Of course, fire can be both.

Lulz, thanks Carlie. This one goes out to you:

Posted by: Alan B | December 15, 2009 6:55 PM

#505 Josh

Do you mean this paper?

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v1/n1/in-place-fossils-by-chance

No. Not that turkey! "Your" paper comes (currently) at the top of my list of total delugionist rubbish. It's so bad it surpasses the scale of badness, goes through the entire range of awfulness and comes out of the other side to ... ?what? It breaks the speed of light in dreadfulness (IMHO). I wasn't going to mention it so be my guest. It's been said (if it hasn't, it has now!) everyone can produce a turkey of a paper but this is exceptional.

The one I looked at in detail was in #393 (Nov 16th), #578, #635, 686 of the "escape from the planet" incarnation of The Thread:

The paper is:

“The fossil record:becoming more random all the time” by John Woodmorappe, CEN Technical Journal, 14(1), 2000, 110-116.

http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j14_1/j14_1_110-116.pdf

I spent some time on it partly to demonstrate Woodmorappe's poor attention to the literature he cites.

Woodmorappe, J. 1999. Studies in Flood Geology. ICR, El Cajon, CA, 231p.

I don't have this but presumably you are aware that it is merely a collection of 5 of his previous papers, with one cover and serial pagination. I have been able to locate some of the papers but not all. I find it intensely annoying that he repeatedly references it in his papers, thus making his "evidence" unobtainable. This is unusual - many delugionist papers are well referenced with available papers. The only significant difficulty (apart from this "book") has been Proceeding of some of the YEC conferences.

Still some more papers for you but I have been out all evening acting as Question Master for an inter-pub quiz (big in the West Midlands and I suspect elsewhere in England - leagues, cups etc.etc., Oh yes and beer ...)

Posted by: SEF | December 15, 2009 7:10 PM

Perhaps someone needs to check this atlas for: the location of the supposed flood / eden etc; what Nazareth is supposed to mean.

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | December 15, 2009 7:50 PM

Sorry but this will probably be my longest post and please if I have not been clear or have made a mistake...by all means,I have my armour on.

Oh and if this isn't your subject then kilfile me and move on.

Gravitons do not exist unless you consider the distance between all particles in the universe as gravitons.
Gravitational waves are a real effect caused by mass moving in relation to other mass.
Gravitational waves can be considered as Geometric shape fluctuation.
Matter can come in a variety of densities.

Galactic Black holes = Space in the center of Galaxy=Black hole matter=HEAVY matter = Very Dense=Apex of convergence

Black hole Event Horizon consisting of Light Matter converging to Heavy matter

Galaxy = Space between Black holes and Dark matter = Normal matter = LIGHT matter = Less Dense= pre-black hole matter

Galaxy Event horizon consisting of Dark matter converging into Light Matter

Galactic shroud=DARK Matter = Even less Dense=Space between Space matter and normal matter = Pre-normal-matter.

Galactic shroud Event horizon consisting of Even less dense still converging into Dark matter.

External Galactic Space = Pre-dark -matter = Even less Dense still.

Space Event horizon Even lesser dense still, where the galactic gravitational waves preside just before convergence with other Galaxy bodies or other such phenomena.

These are all to be considered local space time frames.

The more distance you have between particles, the less gravity will be locally generated, unless you have greater amount of less density (such as a gas)or the mass of matter is moving.

Every particle is sharing information of shape to every other particle in the system (universe). This is an accumulative effect, the more mass, the more accumulation, the more potential bending of space time.

We can not see this directly, only indirectly ,is not it wonderful that the closest, densest matter can not be seen due to the bending of light around itself so we see what is behind the black hole instead of a black dot?

And one reason we can not see Dark matter very easily because the space between particles is less dense than normal matter, just as we can not see space, only the arrival of information(layman's terms *see thru it*). The only way to detect matter (other than normal matter is indirectly and that is how it is done.(indirectly)

However, there is a event horizon between normal matter (light matter)and Black hole matter (heavy matter).
So too shall there be a event horizon between normal matter (light matter) and Dark matter (pre-normal-matter). It will be very hard to find since the convergence is on galactic time scales.
And to follow this line of reasoning there will be an event horizon between Dark matter (pre-normal- matter) and Space (Even. Harder to find)

It is true that the Illusion that you experience of standing still on the earth is not relevant , you are actually falling along the space-time geometric curvature created by the mass of particles known as earth and since the gravity variance is so slight from the particles in your body and the particles in the lithosphere you can exist on the surface rather than continuing the fall to the densest part of the earth (core). It is generally the same for all matter.(with the exception of Event horizons)

It is the distance between particles that dictates density of the geometric shape of (gravity) space time.
It is the movement of particles thru that space that dictates information exchange.
All particles move in one frame or another, Get this (all matter moves all the time)so information is always present.(gravity is always present) space time exist. Movement of matter creates anomalies in the space-time, these are gravitational waves. Movement causes shape.

Let me state this again all space between mass particles can be considered gravitons and calculated as such.
IMO to physically look for an independent particle is unproductive, yet we still need to look as it is the scientific method and we tend to find some things while looking for other things.

All forces are fictitious when viewed at a non-local relevant space/time frame.

As far as the old world term ether as NOR mentions, or the Grid as others call it, this is nothing more than the transfer of information from every single particle to every single other particle, cumulatively, in the form of geometric shape.

We are what we are because of this information, Now it is the two forces of nature that operate within this space time, the Electroweak nuclear Force and the Strong nuclear Force that are the local events that play out in our time frame. It is the interplay of lesser forces that accumulate the expression of higher so called forces. The Two forces (Electroweak nuclear and the Strong nuclear force) dictate the shape by distance and momentum. In turn the shape regulates the template into which these forces interact. It is the expansion of the universe that enables this to occur.

On a galactic scale (Galaxy View) we see most galaxies moving away from us, our point of reasoning is the Doppler effect are the red shifting of galaxies, as the Galaxies move farther and farther away there is less impact of information exchange, This will have a profound effect on our Galaxy. I propose that the event horizons will adapt to the information exchange and since they will be less restricted by this information then the accumulation of mass to the denser medium will accelerate. What I mean is that the black hole in the center of our galaxy will spin faster and the event horizons will accelerate in their accretion rates. This will be very hard to see, but will be deduced by the difference of gravity potential between event horizons.
That is of course if there is not a local effect causing an interference such as our local group of galaxies moving toward our Galaxy.

Just as you have different states of normal matter ,such as ,solid, liquid, gas, plasma, Bose condensate, fermionic condensates(all states have not been discovered) you will have different states of Dark matter and different states of Black hole matter. The Pioneer anomaly may be an indicator of further alternative states.

So lets look again at matter, It is not all the same, It is governed;
by momentum (a property of a moving body that the body has by virtue of its mass and motion and that is equal to the product of the body's mass and velocity)
by distance (separation in time, spatial remoteness)
by angular momentum ( a vector quantity that is a measure of the rotational momentum of a rotating body or system, that is equal in classical physics to the product of the angular velocity of the body or system and its moment of inertia with respect to the rotation axis, and that is directed along the rotation axis)

(The following is speculation and conjecture)

I know that some of this contradicts the present day acceptable peer reviewed knowledge of a forever expanding Universe, Yet if you take into the account that we are at a stage of galactic formation where the four known local geometric shapes of/or (gravity) Heavy, Light, Dark and Space matter configurations are converging and that the unknown states of unequal mass will eventually converge, then given the time frame of Galactic Life span, and comparing this to the expected expansion rate and time of the Universe, there will be a time when all that exist is black holes and at that point the geometric information will cause space to contract ,due to the absents of matter between the black holes and Space dominant Hawking radiation will be the observed signal as each mass coalesce
back to another big bang.
A lot of what we perceive is an illusion, we interpret some things not as they are with our classical view point. (example/ flicker fusion rate)Quantum mechanics helps in the ability to see the reality in between illusion and delusion.
The above is brief and in no way complete.
And there are numerous other ways for this to play out.
That’s how I see it.
Hope this helps
Everything recycles and we should too!
Sphere coupler

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | December 15, 2009 8:05 PM

I enjoy being out on the water but I would not want to be a commercial fisherman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTIfCO-ttfA&feature=related

Posted by: John Morales | December 15, 2009 8:10 PM

Sphere Coupler, I long ago realised you're deep into the woo, but I still like most of your posts.

Galactic Black holes = Space in the center of Galaxy=Black hole matter=HEAVY matter = Very Dense=Apex of convergence

Black holes are singularities, but not indecently naked — they're covered by their event horizon.

Galaxy = Space between Black holes and Dark matter = Normal matter = LIGHT matter = Less Dense= pre-black hole matter.

Galaxies are large-scale gravitationally bound systems.
Note your previous "definition" of black holes and your current definition of galaxies are contradictory! ;)

It is the distance between particles that dictates density of the geometric shape of (gravity) space time.

I can't make any sense of this; density and geometry are quite different concepts.

The Pioneer anomaly may be an indicator of further alternative states.

Woo of the gaps. Heh.

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | December 15, 2009 8:50 PM

John Morales

like most of your posts

Yes you are correct the definition is lacking.

I can't make any sense of this; density and geometry are quite different concepts.

I have no real concepts for pioneer, I threw that in to make to point that we have a long way to go before we even understand the basics,(ie more than we know now)

David Marjanović

If you're (like me)

Stop right here.

Waves are particles. Electromagnetic waves are photons, and gravitational waves are gravitons. You cannot have one aspect without the other.

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | December 15, 2009 9:10 PM

John, my correction.

I see how that can be confusing In the previous words I should be more specific that the

Galaxy definition Minus the singularity is between Event horizons.

Is that what you are referring to?

Nerd, what part trips your woo trigger,maybe I could help, or maybe you could.I value your skepticism (for lack of a better word)

Posted by: John Morales | December 15, 2009 9:19 PM

Sphere Coupler:

Yes you are correct the definition is lacking.

Yeah. (see below).

Draw an imaginary line from every particles to every other particle,now pick a state of matter and use only the density that it represents then project that against the remaining geometry.Can you see that?

Density: mass per unit volume.
Geometry: relationship between points in a metric space.
State of matter: forms of different phases of matter in bulk (matter here refers to that which has mass and occupies a volume).

Note: black holes have a definite mass, but occupy an infinitesimal volume (density = ∞) regardless of metric.

Posted by: John Morales | December 15, 2009 9:40 PM

Sphere Coupler,

Yes and that is why they [black holes] are the Apex of convergence.

Apices, since you're using the plural. :)

</pedant>

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | December 15, 2009 10:04 PM

Thanks for the breather PZ.I appreciate the window, and will look forward to the next, at your convenience,the winter break approaches none too soon.

Sphere Coupler

Posted by: consciousness razor | December 15, 2009 10:12 PM

Sphere Coupler:
I didn't come close to understanding your post, partly because of the grammar and syntax, partly because of the exceptionally vague and confusing "definitions", and partly because I'm not an expert on physics either.

I don't know what you're saying about dark matter, but it's my understanding that dark matter is not "pre-normal matter", whatever that is supposed to mean. Do you think dark matter will become "normal matter" in the future?

Same deal with black holes, really. I don't get it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. The space between the singularity and the event horizon is curved so much that nothing can escape it. Other than that, I don't see the point in describing different kinds of matter inside or outside of the event horizon. Some matter will ultimately have one trajectory, and other matter will have different trajectories. That doesn't fundamentally change anything about the nature of matter itself.

As far as whether the universe will ultimately contract because everything will be sucked into black holes, I thought most of the evidence pointed toward an accelerating expansion. If that is so, then even if everything does get sucked into one black hole or another, most would apparently be so far apart that they can no longer have a causal relationship.

While we're on the topic of physics, I wanted to say that it's really frickin' hard for me to understand how there may have been no such thing as space-time before the big bang. Perhaps it's just not one of those things a person can comprehend -- I feel no need to posit the existence of some supernatural monster because of my ignorance. I accept it as a very real possibility, but honestly I just don't get it. I appreciate any comments, links, book recommendations, etc., that could help me sort some of it out.

Posted by: John Morales | December 15, 2009 10:41 PM

Mr T,

While we're on the topic of physics, I wanted to say that it's really frickin' hard for me to understand how there may have been no such thing as space-time before the big bang.

Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't.
There's an 'event horizon' (force unification) close to the big bang, too, and it's all speculative at the moment — it's an open question whether it was the beginning of 'everything' or just of the space-time mass-energy we can observe.

In short, "it is not yet known".

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 15, 2009 11:00 PM

Hah! Tell that to the organic chemists, who depend upon the persistent presence of ¹³C to do routine spectroscopic analyses, Dawkinz!

Posted by: Owlmirror | December 15, 2009 11:29 PM

Perhaps someone needs to check this atlas

I like this enormously for its conceit and genuinely attractive cartography, but I am less than enthused about its accuracy.

Not every placename has a known and completely unambiguous etymology.

The translation of the Andamans is amusing:

Islands of the Monkey God ^*
(* the one with the strong maxillaries)

Definitely that one, eh? How very anatomical...

I see that (according to Wikipedia (for whatever that's worth)), they were trying to reference Hanuman there, and (also via W'pedia) that Hanuman's name derives from "A permanent mark was left on his chin (hanuhH in Sanskrit), explaining his name."

I note that the German translation is "Inseln des Affengottes (der mit den Kinnbacken)".

Posted by: Sphere Coupler | December 15, 2009 11:42 PM

I don't know what you're saying about dark matter, but it's my understanding that dark matter is not "pre-normal matter", whatever that is supposed to mean. Do you think dark matter will become "normal matter" in the future?

Yes "prematter" is speculation on my part derived from the fact of eventual convergence to a black hole ect.

But as you were first aware of the magnitude of time that has passed for geological processes to take place, it is indeed,almost unconceivable to think on a universal or galactic time scale.

Yes, Emphatically, Yes, Eventually.

but testing must ensue to clarify.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 16, 2009 12:36 AM

Carlie @535: That was an excellent image! Without that graphic I would have never figured out that fire can be good and bad! Doh.

Mr. Fire @559

Index...indices
Matrix...matrices
Chex Mix...Chices Mices??

Comment #542 is a black hole.

Josh, I am inexplicably taken with by your attempt to assemble a complete library of delugionist literature rantings. I would like to see this collection when it's complete.

Sili @527

Make up your mind. Do you eat the raisin or the date?
And would someone kindly tell me what to do with the little man in the canoe?

As for the little man in the canoe, my take on this is nautical: First, think "water", think "waves" -- this will give you the connected, smooth, inexorable quality of attack, while at the same time allowing for infinite variety, including a certain amount of rough seas. Keep the little man at sea, and never let him come ashore. Rock the boat.

Rev BDC, I didn't realize that your asshole was atheist, but considering it's life experience, I think that's a perfectly reasonable outcome.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | December 16, 2009 12:47 AM

Other news from the Philippines: http://www.fridae.com/newsfeatures/2009/11/25/9381.philippine-lgbts-protest-discriminatory-ruling-against-gay-political-party

We have the gay republicans. http://www.gayrepublicans.org/
-- anything is possible.

Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | December 16, 2009 1:22 AM

We have the gay republicans. http://www.gayrepublicans.org/

So gay people are forbidden to participate in politics if they form their own party? And they are, in my experience, very good in party mode. That's a shame.

In my experience, they only last an hour or so. Then they just end up on the floor, or on top of me. lol.

Posted by: God | December 16, 2009 3:00 AM

Getting up early is unhealthy: I've been trying to come up with arguments for theistic evolution.

That's more or less how I got started, too.

Posted by: maureen brian | December 16, 2009 3:59 AM

Back to pies for a moment.

Posted by: maureen brian | December 16, 2009 4:05 AM

I buggered that up. Try again. Pies.

Posted by: maureen brian | December 16, 2009 4:08 AM

Before I shoot myself - today's Guardian - an editorial no less on yesterday's pie eating contest in Wigan.

Posted by: maureen brian | December 16, 2009 4:14 AM

Sorry, sgbm! Take the length of that URL, the puny width of this 'ere commenting box and my limited skills - a recipe for chaos. It is rather sweet, though, and worth tracking down if you are prepared to do that little extra.