Pharyngula

Posted by: OurDeadSelves | December 8, 2009 7:00 PM

I sometimes wonder if dudes like Mr. Prothero actually know any real-life women at all.

We need to be kinder and gentler like we need a hole in the head. People may view us "new atheists" as rude and rash, but at least we're not a group of fucking milquetoasts.

Posted by: Forbidden Snowflake | December 8, 2009 7:04 PM

Damn, now you have me thinking about atheistic lace doilies, what would they look like, how to make them, how much to charge for them, and other mundane worries.

Well, if it works for Muslim pencil sharpeners...

Posted by: Zeno | December 8, 2009 7:05 PM

We non-believing middle-aged bachelors are really on the spot now. In the absence of a member of the gentler sex to rein in my proclivities toward histrionic excess, I presume my atheistic impulses will force me to scream at street corner preachers, hurl mud at local churches, and write abusive letters to the editor of my newspaper's religion page.

Hmm.

Sounds too strenuous. Maybe I'll take a nap instead.

Yawn. (That's for you, Mr. Prothero.)

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus | December 8, 2009 7:06 PM

I think you should turn the Pharyngula women on him--they could carve little atheist homilies into his sad hide and season them with salt.

I'd like to propose a competitive thread where Aquaria, Jadehawk, Lynna, Patricia and a hundred other no-nonsense pharyngulettes, take turns at giving him a good kicking, and then we blokes get to vote for their posts on such criteria as brutality, most persuasive argument, intellectual incisiveness, best sarcasm, top one-liner, cutting-through-the-crapishness etc.

The winner gets to decide who goes in the dungeon next (if she should choose to send me to the dungeon, can I please also have nipple clamps and daily floggings on my naughty buttocks).

Posted by: Alcari | December 8, 2009 7:07 PM

Speaking as an atheist woman, I too think there are to few of us. For some strange reason, women over here (Western Europe) seem to be more religious then men.

Now, it might just be a difference in reporting atheism/none-ism in the polls, but I find it rather embarrassing,

Posted by: Miguel (alopiasmag) | December 8, 2009 7:09 PM

Hmmm. . . I dont know.

Women might be sweeter but when they get furious about something, watch out. I'd fear them more than men.

Regarding nice and gentle, the religious right is far more arrogant, and rude. And for course they can get away with it because they've got Dog on their side! To bad they don't realize its a figment of their imagination.

Posted by: Podblack | December 8, 2009 7:10 PM

Erm, considering that it was PZ Myers who is presenting at the Global Atheist conference and neglected to mention in the post "The Problem Of The Oblivious White Male Atheist" that there's a dedicated panel of women discussing their views as atheists (and I would suggest it'll be ongoing throughout the conference not just by them) - despite what I do see are faults with the article, the opportunity to discuss that there are more than 'underqualified cheerleaders' for the 'Horsemen' out there is at least a start!

Women at the Global Atheist convention include: The Rise of Atheism 2010 Global Atheist Convention – women presenting: Taslima Nasrin, Catherine Deveny, Sue-Ann Post, Lyn Allison, Leslie Cannold, Maggie Millar, Jano Caro, Kylie Sturgess and Tanya Levin. The panel I refer to specifically is on the Saturday – chaired by Maggie Millar featuring Lyn Allison, Tanya Levin, Leslie Cannold and Jane Caro.

Posted by: lose_the_woo | December 8, 2009 7:17 PM

pz, you are lying little hypocrite who will be destroyed without mercy...

I think you should be more specific.

Bodily injury, or just empty threats?

Posted by: Sgt. Obvious | December 8, 2009 7:23 PM

@lose_the_woo: No. It might seem tempting, but don't feed the Mabus. Just wait for his spam to be deleted like always.

On topic, where are Janine and Patricia? It'd suck for the to be left out of this one, it's so perfect for them.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 8, 2009 7:25 PM

Yikes, I suspect having to sign in will be mandatory in the near future. Now, if somebody would permanently virus/malware he-who-shall-not-be-named laptop...

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | December 8, 2009 7:29 PM

Oh ffs, I'm not about to get all "shy, sweet and subservient-sounding" in order to "reign men in". Sounds like he wants the Sweet Mommy Brigade - the new face of atheism! I'm not terribly sweet and I'm not a mommy. Although I do enjoy embroidering.

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 8, 2009 7:31 PM

Funny how that worked out, that my response is right after someone asked about me. It is a good thing I do not think there is any meaning to coincidences.

As for Patricia, she is still spending time getting her life back together. But I know she is grateful for all the people who sent their kind regards.

Posted by: Godfree | December 8, 2009 7:36 PM

Respectfully, Smoggy, the last thing female atheists want or need is to be judged in any way by a bunch of men, as if it were some kind of beauty contest. YES it's funny, YES I enjoy the image of you in nipple clamps. Cheers!

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 8, 2009 7:38 PM

Posted by: John Morales | December 8, 2009 7:05 PM

Heh. I've lost track of how many times SC, OM has been mistaken for an XY by commenters on this blog.

(She ain't the only one, either)

Why do you think that many women writers use their initials or have adopted male nom de plume? Because to many people, like Stephen Prothero, expect women to meeker and milder then the supposed image of men and do not want to be saddled with that.

Posted by: MadScientist | December 8, 2009 7:41 PM

Yay! Mabus is off his medications again. Time to turn on the authentication system.

Posted by: Ol'Greg | December 8, 2009 7:46 PM

Man fuck that noise!

The Oprah book club atheists. Yeah, in order to attract them you need to give them more loving paternal pats on the head, and make sure to honor the one thing women can do which is give birth. Remember, childbirth is God's Nature's gift to woman, and all women are mothers inside, full of maternal love and wisdom. That's how they know when vaccines are poisonous too.

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus | December 8, 2009 7:53 PM

Dear Sister Godfree,

I know women don't really want to be judged by men. More to the point, no sane male on Pharyngula would ever dream of judging a pharyngulette. The perils of a man judging women was first learned by Paris a year or two back. Do you really think I'd have the stones to choose between Jadehawk and SC OM? Why, choosing one as better than the other would be tantamount to saying "Yes, dear!" to one's wife when she asks 'Do I look fat in this?'

My tongue was firmly in my cheek when I made the proposition (actually, it was in someone else's cheek, but you probably don't want to go there). However, if you want a pageant and some naked flesh, Floyd Rubber and I would be happy to organise a "Mister Pierced Penis" competition. We both enjoy being exploited and objectified, which is what makes us such good Christians.

Yours unjudgementally

SMOGGY

Posted by: Numenaster | December 8, 2009 7:57 PM

one is like trying to turn everyone gay and the other is like trying to secure equal rights for gay men and lesbians.

Speaking as someone who has worked for gay rights, I can't believe I just read something that warps our argument so badly. The gay rights argument is indeed "the only way forward is to educate the idiots and flush away the poison", but that's miles away from trying to make changes in anyone else's genetic makeup.

Not to mention the infuriation of finding the "gay is just a choice" lie lurking under an already-stupid argument. Yech.

Posted by: Acronym Jim | December 8, 2009 8:00 PM

As has probably already been mentioned, we have quite a few vocal, rude, godless x-chromers2 in these very threads. At the top of my head I can think of:

Janine
SC
Nerd of Redhead (contrary to assumptions to the contrary)
and

Truth Machine (AKA "Stan")(honorary gender assignment here);-D

Posted by: Qwerty | December 8, 2009 8:04 PM

And why does being a white atheist male seem to automatically qualify someone as being "angry." The article is condescending to men as well!

*snort*

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 8, 2009 8:05 PM

Acronym Jim, Nerd is a man. Redhead is his wife. He is Nerd Of Redhead like Fiona is Bride Of Shrek.

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | December 8, 2009 8:10 PM

Would the atheist, skeptic and science-popularization communities — big, sloppily overlapping circles — benefit from having more highly visible women?

Let's think for a minute about what invisible women could acheive. For stealth, such a woman would be unrivaled!

Posted by: John Morales | December 8, 2009 8:11 PM

Janine,

Just because someone has the XY bit in them does not mean they are male. Nor does XX mean you have a woman.

Um. I guess that depends on how one define male/female...

I'm willing to be corrected, but I think XX does mean female and XY does mean male (biologically speaking)¹, however (in a sociological sense) I take your point — I have no problem with the transgendered and accept their identity.

--

¹ Leaving aside oddities such as XXY!

Posted by: Ewan R | December 8, 2009 8:12 PM

Perhaps the rude atheist women aren't true women? Makes sense.

Posted by: Rox | December 8, 2009 8:16 PM

Or, to put it in terms of the gay rights movement, one is like trying to turn everyone gay and the other is like trying to secure equal rights for gay men and lesbians.

Yes, because so many of the gay rights activists I know are trying to turn people gay.

What a moron.

Posted by: truthspeaker | December 8, 2009 8:23 PM

More seriously, what really bothers me about this article is the stereotype that women are more likely to try to avoid confrontation than men and less likely to speak up when someone propogates a viewpoint they disagree with. Obviously that stereotype does not apply to all women. But to the extent that the stereotype is accurate, it describes behavior that is harmful to women. People-pleasing behavior is something we should be discouraging, not encouraging. Appeasing bullies is counterproductive, but too many girls, even in this day and age, are taught not to make a scene, not to cause trouble. Instead of stamping out this attitude, Prothero seems to think it's something we should be encouraging.

As someone who has a sister and a young neice, I say fuck that shit.

Posted by: Ol'Greg | December 8, 2009 8:27 PM

I agree with you Jennifurret at 52. Nothing is worse than being ignored. My only fear is that the argument will morph from "we need more women to make it *nice* because it's all angry white men talking" to "we need more *nice* women because it's all angry white men and feminists."

Posted by: Gruesome Rob | December 8, 2009 8:28 PM

I'm willing to be corrected, but I think XX does mean female and XY does mean male (biologically speaking)

So what's a chimera?

Posted by: harv | December 8, 2009 8:32 PM

From Pandagon: (Hitchens is a legitimate asshole, Harris is kind of a sap, and Dawkins’ major crime is that he speaks honestly about stuff that you’re supposed to pussyfoot around.)

I never understood how anyone could catagorize Dawkin's as anything other than a complete gentleman and high caliber intellectual. I have watched hours of his interviews with the media and debates with creationists and he rarely even raises his voice. He answers the ignorant and willfully ignorant in an always calm and collected tone.

"Hitchens is a legitimate asshole"-well, yes, but that is an extremely important part of any (dare I say movement?)

Posted by: Ol'Greg | December 8, 2009 8:35 PM

Whatever. I quit reading at the gay rights movement comment. If this was a post here I'd call poe.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | December 8, 2009 8:38 PM

Prothero must not know too many women.

Posted by: John Morales | December 8, 2009 8:40 PM

[silliness]

Gruesome Rob,

So what's a chimera?

A hybrid; can be either male or female.

Posted by: OurDeadSelves | December 8, 2009 8:43 PM

People are going to check out the women he listed there and realize they don't fart rainbows.

Good point! I hadn't thought of it that way-- I'm still really pissed about the tone of the piece, but if it gets people talking, then it's ultimately a good thing.

And I may not be a delicate woman, but dammit, I fart rainbows constantly.

Posted by: Carlie | December 8, 2009 8:44 PM

What truthspeaker said. It's not only a bad stereotype, it plays right into the role that women have been forced into and keeps them there. The last thing women need is their own supposed allies reinforcing that they're supposed to be meek and mild and not make waves. His whole point is that women are great and we should pay attention to them...as long as they're not bitches about it, of course. I hope Jennifurret is right about its aftereffects, unintentional on the part of the author though they may be.

Posted by: Gruesome Rob | December 8, 2009 8:50 PM

A hybrid; can be either male or female.

Which is exactly my point. It's not as simple as saying XX or XY, this is just another case like Janine brought up.

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 8, 2009 8:53 PM

Fe! Fi! Fo! Fum! I smell the blood of a new troll! Sarah Palin, a feminist? Bwahahahahaha!

Posted by: Kristine | December 8, 2009 8:55 PM

Stephen Prothero: Let women lead.

"Let" women lead?

LET women lead?

Is that like, "I LET out a fart," or "LET the children come unto me?" LET women lead?

Women, we've been given a longer leash (by a man, natch)! Isn't that generous? Aren't you grateful? Now, what she we do with this long rope? Hmmmm... *Glances at Rumpleforeskin*

Posted by: Jennifurret | December 8, 2009 8:57 PM

Sarah Palin is a true feminist.

Reading that made me die a little inside.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 8, 2009 8:59 PM

Gossip Corner: actress Jamie Lee Curtis has long been rumored to be such an XY female.

Posted by: OurDeadSelves | December 8, 2009 8:59 PM

"I think you should turn the Pharyngula women on him--they could carve little atheist homilies into his sad hide and season them with salt"

--------------

Both women?

Apparently this one can't count higher than 2. So sad.

Here's a tip, boyo, your right hand (that's the one that doesn't make the L) has five fingers. Count with me now! 1!2!3!4!5! And numbers go even higher than that, even! Try it!

Posted by: Carlie | December 8, 2009 9:01 PM

Here's a tip, boyo, your right hand (that's the one that doesn't make the L) has five fingers. Count with me now!

I think he might be busy using that hand for something else at the moment. Ahem.

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 8, 2009 9:02 PM

Sarah Palin is an example of a woman who benefited from feminism without ever being a feminist herself.

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay | December 8, 2009 9:04 PM

I think he might be busy using that hand for something else at the moment. Ahem.

Hopefully he's taken my advice about the corn cob. Can't be sure, though, since I refuse to lend him mine.

Posted by: Ol'Greg | December 8, 2009 9:05 PM

Sarah Palin is an example of a woman who benefited from feminism without ever being a feminist herself.

Not to mention a door-shutter, looking to keep the kinds of opportunities available to her out of the hands of other women.

Posted by: LaRae Meadows | December 8, 2009 9:06 PM

John Morales, you're not being fuzzy.

Posted by: OurDeadSelves | December 8, 2009 9:08 PM

I think he might be busy using that hand for something else at the moment. Ahem.

Whacking off to the thought of atheist women?

I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Posted by: skeptifem | December 8, 2009 9:13 PM

HAAAHAHA! Isn't that nice how womens nature can be said to be hysterical or calming, depending on what the dude talking about it needs it to be?

I think what the dude means is that if you all were around women as he knows em (submissive quiet nurture bots) you would all feel a lot less stressed out. Women who just act like regular people aren't any more or less fun to be around, but godbags dont consider women as human as men. they are a subset of human with characteristics such as existing to make men's lives easier. What a fucking knob.

This is a really really weird variation on the "uptight so and so just needs to get laid" trope usually used on lesbians/feminists with opinions, but unsurprisingly it still manages to insult women pretty hard.

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 8, 2009 9:16 PM

Hum, someone is enraged. And damn if it is not enjoyable. Lynna, breast first? Love it!

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 8, 2009 9:18 PM

Kristine, you are not here often enough!

Shimmies all around!

Posted by: Tanya | December 8, 2009 9:23 PM

Perhaps Professor Prothero can explain to me the neurological mechanisms that tie my ownership of a vagina to a sweet, conciliatory, and diplomatic personality. Are my ovaries somehow responsible for a desire to foster coexistence rather than seeking to expose religion as a ridiculously illogical delusion? Has my womb secretly served not only as an incubator for my children, but also for an ideology that encourages superstition to be given the same respect as solid, rational thought?

What crap.

Is the desire to insure that women remain a minority in this movement? Make sure we all understand that we’re expected to conform to a preconceived mold of lady-like behavior. That we’re being invited to the party as hostesses, expected to smile and make all the guests comfortable. Make sure we understand that assertive behavior will relegate us to the same nasty rubbish bins that religion maintains for us. Attempt to use us as a white noise to drown out the voices you disapprove of, to soften the “arguments of angry men”, and to raise up the movement like a disobedient child.

Dawkins and Hitchens have never made me feel uncomfortable as a member of the Atheist community. With this article, however, Professor Prothero certainly has.

From the female response his article has garnered so far, I doubt we'll have the tempering effect on the movement he desires.

Posted by: Rox | December 8, 2009 9:24 PM

Well, I should have known better than to say the word 'feminist' on the internet...

Posted by: Kristy | December 8, 2009 9:25 PM

Bugger! Obviously that last line was meant to read:

I think that all of these women are every bit as outspoken and direct as their male counterparts - and good on them for that!

Posted by: OurDeadSelves | December 8, 2009 9:27 PM

We know how you love gay ass flavor.

Wait, what? You're gay?

Posted by: Aratina Cage | December 8, 2009 9:30 PM

Please tell me Rumpleforeskin is a banned troll breaking out of the dungeon...

Posted by: Torrie | December 8, 2009 9:31 PM

Fuck Stephen Prothero.

some of them women and most of them far friendlier than Hitchens and his ilk.

Not me, man. I think people who belive in God and the Bible are delusional and I have zero patience for their rhetoric. I think it's silly and I often laugh at them if they spew it.

Although the arguments of angry men gave this movement birth, ....

What fucking "movement". There is no "movement". It is normal in the modern era of Science to not believe something unless we can quantify and test it. It has to lend itself to at least one of our senses. Atheists are NORMAL. And, every human is born an ATHEIST. When someone comes along and tells you a Goat Herder story from over 3000 years ago, THAT IS NOT NORMAL!

These Christian idiots act like we have agenda and we are trying to push some belief on the human race, some controlling mechanism that is harmful. They think it will change humans into something horrible. WE ARE TRYING TO LIVE IN REALITY, IS ALL. AND, RELIGION NOT ONLY COMPLICATES COMMUNICATION AMONGST HUMANS, BUT IT CAUSES, AND HAS CAUSED, ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF DEATH AND DESTRUCTION. WITHOUT RELIGION, HUMANS ASCEND TO DO GREAT THINGS FOR EACH OTHER AND THE PLANET. WITH RELIGION, WE CONTINUE IN OUR DARK AGE WARRING GUILT-RIDDEN MENTALITY. THROUGH RELIGION, HUMANS HAVE BRAIN-WASHED A GREAT DEAL OF THE EARTH'S POPULACE. THIS IS A MENTAL ILLNESS, CULT MENTALITY, AND REALLY NEEDS DEPROGRAMMING. HUMANS: DO NOT BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT ARE NOT THERE. ESPECIALLY, DON'T BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT ARE NOT THERE AND HAVE AN ILLOGICAL STORY THAT IS TOLD TO YOU BY OTHER HUMANS, FOR WHICH THEY HAVE NO PROOF.

DEBUNKING THE BIBLE SEEMS TO BE A GOOD METHOD, BUT DAMN, MOST RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE SO INGRAINED WITH THEIR DOGMA, I WONDER IF WE WILL EVER BREAK THROUGH THEIR MADNESS.

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay | December 8, 2009 9:33 PM

Lynna, you rock and are a Goddess. That whole post was a thing of beauty! I LOVE that this thread has brought out the atheist women full force to smack that little shit Prothero down for his sexist, patronizing bollocks.

But, there is a clear winner among the comments:

Stand back. I'm entering the room breasts first, and taking no fucking prisoners.

I think I wanna marry you. Even though I'm the SpokesGay.

Let me help you take it to the next level of geek glory, Star Trek style. Lynna is the captain of the USS Gynenatrix, facing a hostile Phallulon invasion force:

ENSIGN SAPPHIE: Captain, Phallulon ships!

LYNNA: Scan their "weapons array."

ENSIGN SAPPHIE: Scanning. Captain, their weapons are only at half-mast.

LYNNA: Raise Dalkon Shields. I want to be prepared for anything, even if it's anti-climactic. Prepare to lift and separate.

ENSIGN SAPPHIE: Ma'am - they're powering up their Phallutite Phasers.

LYNNA: Fools - they're no match for us. Fire Tampon Torpedoes!

ENSIGN SAPPHIE: Direct hit, ma'am. But they're not responding.

LYNNA: What?

ENSIGN SAPPHIE: Scans indicate they've . .um. .fallen asleep, ma'am.

Posted by: Acronym Jim | December 8, 2009 9:37 PM

Smoggy@35:

"Mister Pierced Penis" competition

Since you are missionary to atheists, may I postulate this competition is in reference to the "passion?"

Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | December 8, 2009 9:37 PM

We know how you love gay ass flavor

You've done enough rimming to know? Wow you're more expirience than I am. Kudos.

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 8, 2009 9:39 PM

Make mine a Goose Island Oatmeal Stout!

Posted by: John Morales | December 8, 2009 9:42 PM

Torrie, cripes!

Heads up: You can indicate emphasis via bold <b>bold</b> or italics <i>italics</i>, but capslock indicates your're SHOUTING.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | December 8, 2009 9:44 PM

I've been described on Pharyngula as a young male by those who don't know me -- and this is despite using my real, and rather feminine name. A bit of snark, well-sourced material, and logical conclusions are apparently the domain of Maleness.

??

That's... umm...

Cracked.

But then, come to think of it, I've occasionally been mistaken for female. Go fig. Tho' honestly, in retrospect, it kind of flatters me... I mean, Bugs Bunny was always one of my heroes, and there was a guy sure as hell knew how to rock a dress when it was called for.

Oh, and also, following #94, I think I'm in love. Please don't be alarmed. It just had to be said.

(/And as I also occasionally moon over Ophelia Benson, I s'pose this also makes me rather fickle... But then, you know how changeable we cartoon rabbbits are.)

Posted by: Rumpleforeskin | December 8, 2009 9:44 PM

Ha ha, heh, heh, ahhhhhhhhh, ickywactydoliflotchyitis!

You people are by far, not normal.

You know you are dealing with un-normal people when they tell you a screw a dry corn cob. I don't even know where to find a dry corn cob. I do have a potato though.

Liberal women are usually extremely aggressive, sometimes almost homicidal. The ones on here usually are borderline phsychopathic killers. Reading their posts makes me cringe. I am glad that the women I see everyday are normal southern ladies and not raving mad crazies. "RAAAAAAHHHHH!"

They scare me. Now, what did I do with that terd stained potato?

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay | December 8, 2009 9:47 PM

Now, what did I do with that terd stained potato?

Big boy, something tells me you're already hard at work putting it to good use. Oooh, shiver.

Posted by: John Morales | December 8, 2009 9:48 PM

Josh, Official SpokesGay @115: deserves a Molly!

Posted by: Aratina Cage | December 8, 2009 9:49 PM

His style is very reminiscence of C*ncern C*nservative isn't it?

And like others I really enjoyed what you wrote, Lynna, and agree with this:

"speak from the heart"... is code for "emotion first, brains last (if brains are engaged at all)."

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 8, 2009 9:49 PM

ickywactydoliflotchyitis!

Rumpledforebrain is starting to make some sense.

Posted by: Aratina Cage | December 8, 2009 9:52 PM

You see your uterus and ovaries connect to your pineal gland via a network of thin fibers through which feminine vapors rise fogging your brain. -Ol'Greg

Posted by: Ol'Greg | December 8, 2009 9:52 PM

Seriously, what here gives you the idea that the women here are murderous

I think his statement about liberal women is cleared up by his later statement about not having any around him. He doesn't know any, and that's how he's come up with the idea that he knows what they're like.

I'm going to step it up a bit and guess that he doesn't know any women that well.

Posted by: Carlie | December 8, 2009 9:53 PM

badrescher, the problem isn't that he's saying that there need to be gentler voices of atheism in general. He's saying that the main (and seemingly only) reason to want women to be voices of atheism is because they would naturally be those gentler voices. He's saying that the only value women have in the movement is to make nice and calm everyone down, and by doing so also implying that all women are naturally that way in the first place.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | December 8, 2009 9:54 PM

Rumpledforebrain is starting to make some sense...

'S true. It was one of his more coherent moments.

(/True confession: this thread is seriously cracking me up. You couldn't ask for more weirdly fucked up trolls... Yes, even tho' I know at least one of them probably really, seriously needs qualified psychiatric help, it's still making me laugh. Does this make me a bad person?)

Posted by: Paul W. | December 8, 2009 9:57 PM

one is like trying to turn ,everyone gay and the other is like trying to secure equal rights for gay men and lesbians.

If I may be forgiven reposting a comment I left a certain accommodationist blog run by a certain male/female pair of accommodationists...

(The directly relevant bit about that analogy starts about halfway down.)

---

There’s a bizarre misconception that’s been more or less expressed about me and/or the New Atheists here recently, which I should probably have addressed to nip some misunderstandings in the bud

Some people apparently think that the New Atheists are seriously trying to argue the whole world into atheism, will not stop until everybody’s an atheist, and are willing to gamble everything for that unachievable goal.

Apparently, the New Atheists are (supposedly) irresponsibly trying for an unachievable pie-in-sky absolutist goal, and are willing to sacrifice the possibility of a more moderate and reasonable goal in that doomed effort.

In particular, by failing to shut up when they are advised to, for strategic reasons, and ranting atheistically, they undercut our chances of having a somewhat more liberally religious society, because their absolutinst, hard-line, alienating rants just scare potential allies and drive them in the other direction.

They do this (apparently it is supposed) because they are so idealistic that they let the quest for their perfect society destroy the chances of actually achieving a better society.

I don’t think that’s really what’s going on with most New Atheists, and certainly not me.

I, for one, don’t expect a mostly atheist U.S. in the foreseeable future, certainly not in my lifetime, and that’s not really a goal I strategize for when deciding what to say or not say publicly.

It’s not about that.

And when I say scary “extreme” things (like dissing religion in general, rather than just fundamentalism), it’s not because I don’t care about alienating potential allies. I do care, but I think that saying what I actually think is likely to do more harm than good, overall, in moving the U.S. toward a mostly liberally religious status.

As I sketched above in talking about Overton strategies, speaking out in an “extreme” way often alienates fewer potential allies than you’d think, partly because audiences self-select, and people for whom your message is unlistenably harsh mostly don’t listen or manage to dismiss you as unreasonable and unrepresentative, but no significant threat to them.

It also has more advantages than you’d think—and in particular it is often beneficial for your less extreme allies’ agenda, even if they find you embarrassing and try to get you to shut up.

I think most New Atheists don’t expect to atheize the U.S., but do think that atheists being out of the closet will atheize a significant minority and that that will indirectly help theologically liberalize another significant minority.

We’re more likely to end up with a mostly theistic society like Britain’s than some atheist ideal, much less some “atheist utopia.” (We do not think that even universal atheism would create a utopia. And we don’t think that even majority atheism is in the cards for the foreseeable future anyhow.)

We think that it’s likely achievable that in the U.S. the majority could be theologically liberal (and more politically progressive) in a few decades, with atheism being a minority position but one which is publicly acceptable, as it is in Britain.

We also think that we could, like Britain, have a society in which public displays of piety are viewed with extreme skepticism—why should your piety impress me, even if I am religious—and displays of theological conservatism are widely viewed as revealing a lack of sophistication or smarts.

In order to achieve that, we think it will be useful—not counterproductive, on the whole and in the long run—for atheists to come out, convert some more (reachable) people to atheism, and by having a public presence, increase recognition that atheism is fairly common and that atheists are pretty normal people, even if some of them are obnoxious.

One inspiration for that is the surprising success of the gay community, over a relatively short period of a few decades, in gaining acceptance among a large segment of the population—-particularly the younger generation—and reducing the incidence and social acceptability of anti-gay sentiments. (Still popular among a signficant minority, but no longer clearly dominant.)

If atheists are eventually accepted to the degree that gays are already, that will be big progress for us, even if we don’t get to where Britain already is on either front.

That progress will incur some backlash, and we do recognize that arguing for our own acceptance is a rather different task than arguing for the acceptance of homosexuals—and one that is distinctly more difficult in a certain way.

In order to actually defend atheism, you have to attack theism, to a significant extent.

It is often said—and it’s been said recently, here—that this is a really poor analogy. Defending homosexuals (or blacks or whoever) doesn’t require criticizing anybody else. You don’t have to say that heterosexuals are or whites are inferior.

Actually, though, it’s a better analogy than it seems at first blush.

When arguing for the moral acceptability of homosexuals, you are implicitly but inevitably arguing for the moral inferiority of homophobes. And if their homophobia is anchored in their religious views—as it typically is—you are also criticizing their religious views.

Likewise, when you argue that blacks are not inferior to whites, and especially when you make that a moral crusade, as was successfully done, you are inevitably arguing that people who disagree with you—racists—are not just wrong, but morally inferior.

So here we have two examples where people did in fact argue that other people’s views were both wrong and distinctly inferior to liberals views, and in one case it was largely a matter of criticizing other people’s specifically religious views as both factually incorrect and morally reprehensible.

Yes, defending atheism is different, but it’s not all that different, and we think it’s likely to work. Progress will be slow, there will be collateral damage, there will be setbacks, and for the foreseeable future there will be a lot of holdouts.

We think it’s worth it, because it’s really not all that different from what we’ve seen happen with other groups in our own lifetimes.

Like it or not, we’re going to take our shot, and we think it’s going to work and make things better not just for us, but for society, in the long run.

We could be wrong, but if you’re going to tell us we’re wrong, and try to change our strategy, you have to take our arguments seriously and show that your arguments outweigh ours.

You can’t succeed at getting us to shut up—-I mean, convincing us it’s advisable to lay low—if you don’t address major differences of opinion about strategy.

Ignoring Overton issues and stonewalling about it doesn’t impress us. Trying to shame us into submission “for the greater good” isn’t going to work, because we think we have a better strategy, which is for the greater good in the long run, and clear counterexamples to the advisability of your shortsighted pander-to-the-middle strategy.

If you try to shame us into playing nice and agreeing with you, we’ll laugh at you.

And we do.

We could be wrong, but you guys won’t even seriously address the actual issues and make your case. We will mostly ignore you, and do what we think is best, until you do.

Get serious, or get laughed at.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | December 8, 2009 9:57 PM

Ladies and non-ladies*, it would appear that Stephen Prothero has been well answered. The females have shown they are women and proud of the fact. They are not dainty wallflowers, but willing and able to enter the fight breasts first.

Make mine a Goose Island Oatmeal Stout!

Stouts all around.

*No, you don't have to tell us which you are.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 8, 2009 9:58 PM

congradualtions for being demon possessed

quoted for revealingness.
(Is that a word?)

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay | December 8, 2009 9:59 PM

Rumpleforeskin:

I don't know if (or why) you are gay. If you are, congradualtions for being demon possessed. if not, please stop pretending. It makes normal people look bad. If you are their spokesperson, I cannot imagine how they pay you behind closed doors. Lots of terd stains for your future I foresee.

Oh, sugar dumplin', I am gay fo sho. No pretending here, and besides, that's what attracts you so, ne c'est pa?

And I am indeed their SpokesGay. I have a Certificate of Licensed Faggotry ® from Teh Ghey Company to prove it.

How do they pay me behind closed doors? The same way shitheads like you do. Flapping your stupid fucking gums day in and day out about how you hate Teh Ghey, and then trolling for dick under the cover of night. You're a dime a dozen.

Posted by: John Morales | December 8, 2009 9:59 PM

AJ Milne,

But then, come to think of it, I've occasionally been mistaken for female. Go fig. Tho' honestly, in retrospect, it kind of flatters me...

cf. Janine,

Why do you think that many women writers use their initials [...]

On the internet, no-one knows you're a dog.

--

(I'm really enjoying this thread.)

Posted by: Nanu Nanu | December 8, 2009 10:02 PM

"pzisfinished"

Wait so PZ gets one now? I don't think it's fair to start handing out new ones when the Rev hasn't gotten his.

Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | December 8, 2009 10:03 PM

Hey all you liberal pharyngula women, killed anyone yet. Oh of course not, you're not a godbotting loon. But it seems to me that rumpleforeskin is really here for the flavors of our demon possessed gay asses.

I would guess that this is the Hoax but the Hoax used better grammar and spelling.

It's not pilty. pilty usually starts of with a sarcastic statement. I'm pretty sure it's this guy, who is in fact banned

Posted by: Rumpleforeskin | December 8, 2009 10:04 PM

rawterdis,

You cannot be a scientist. In order for you to be a scientist, you first have to study science. You have not. You have studied propganda and anti-religious crap designed to move the entire human race to socialism. That is not science. That is shit that should be abolished. You racist idea of evolution has failed. Where are your transitional fossils? You global warming crap has been exposed as a huge fraud designed to give the UN more of our soverignty and money. Your science is crap, therefore you are a crappy scientist. Why don;t you work on a car that runs on hydrogen and get that into existance and make it affordable. No one wants to drive your ugly tiny egglike toaster ovens to work. We like big cars with big motors and big power. We like our real light bulbs. By the way if you want mine, bend over.

How about making yourself useful and actually take that scientific learning of yours and make life better, not worse for humanity. Firget electric crap cars. No one wants that shit.

Forget your loony doomsday "we're all gonna burn alive if we don;t change our light bulbs" mentality and do something helpful for a change. Stop being facist dictators and let people drive what they want, intall the light bulbs they want and so on. No one likes a boss. And certainly no one likes a bossy socialist fascist one world govenment oriented scientist. That is evil and wrong. Freedom rates above tyranny any day!

Still want my light bulbs and V-8? Like i said before, bend over! That will be THE only way you will get your filthy paws on them. I dont give into dictatorships, I bring them down.

Posted by: flyonthewall | December 8, 2009 10:08 PM

Sarah Palin is a true feminist. She is a lady, not a manhating loudmouth hatemonger like some.

Oh Poe where are you when we need you the most.

Sarah Palin is the anti-feminist. She is everything that women who strive for equality find disgusting in a woman. Ditzy, mind numbing ignorance. She has set woman back 50 years. She used her looks, her legs and her tits to get where she is. I'm not saying she whored around, she simply used her sex to get what she wanted because that's all she has. She has no qualifications for any position she's been in, except perhaps the missionary position.

Its a sad commentary on the state of politics and people in general who are swayed by this sort of thing. If she had a scar running down her face she wouldn't have left Wasilla.
And sadder still if she was qualified and had a scar running down her face, she would never have left Wasilla. That is the struggle for women in a nutshell.

Posted by: Carlie | December 8, 2009 10:10 PM

It's amazing how when you poke the crazy people, creationist and global warming denial crap always falls out. I bet convolutedintromittentorgan is also an anti-vaxer.

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus | December 8, 2009 10:13 PM

Dear Brother Rancidforeskin,

The Lord bless you for speaking up for Christian prejudice and small mindedness. Someone needs to make a stand in this hellhole of atheist bottom pokers and lippy lesbians. You certainly were brave hanging out your lil 'ol Christian pecker in this furnace of evil (no wonder it's so shriveled and dead looking).

Don't fret about that 'potato' up your back passage, we both know it's a solidified turd of hatred and indoctrination that's been festering away for years ever since your asshole clenched the first time you were caught getting down and dirty with your neighbors hog. Ain't that the dang story of your life? Whatever you fuck you end up consuming! That's quite a few poor little Southern Christian gals you've gone through so far.

Anyway, Jesus has heard your prayers and he's authorized me to send my friend Floyd Rubber all the way down south to ram his large meatstick up your chute and ream you out for good and all. At least then you'll be able to stand up straight and realise that the world looks quite different when you're not wallowing around in the shitpool of ignorance.

Your brother in Christian sodomy
Smoggy

Posted by: AnneS | December 8, 2009 10:14 PM

Does the atheist movement need more women? Most assuredly. Will having more women make the movement more polite? Fuck that shit.

Posted by: Lynna | December 8, 2009 10:15 PM

There is nothing more loathsome than a female who exhibits such traits as loud talking, ideas, a penchant for logic, assertiveness, aggression, sexuality or desire to avoid sex by her own volition. These things are surely the downfall of mankind.

You are correct in assuming that we are the downfall of some men, but not all of mankind. AJ Milne and Smoggy (to mention just two of the many fine Pharyngula males) can both rock a dress with me anytime. (It's okay, AJ, you can love me in a fickle manner. It strikes me as in compliance with dogma according to some Sanskrit-writing fantasist...)

Posted by: windy | December 8, 2009 10:16 PM

OK, so after we talk about atheism, do we touch them on the penis?

Posted by: Aratina Cage | December 8, 2009 10:17 PM

Josh our SpokesGay, yes, you deserve a Molly for that. And Smoggy, reading your latest just confirms how much you deserved the one you got! *swoon*

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 8, 2009 10:21 PM

Okay. I came from the great state of Mississippi, a virtual Heaven in the eyes we proud confederateslave owning rebels and other conservativesnon-thinkers (normalstupid illiterate bigotted people).

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | December 8, 2009 10:22 PM

foreskin @ 160:

You're trying too hard - stuffing too many stereotypes into one character. Go back to your closet, dear.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | December 8, 2009 10:23 PM

It's amazing how when you poke the crazy people, creationist and global warming denial crap always falls out. I bet convolutedintromittentorgan is also an anti-vaxer.

... fer laffs, I fed his latest 'let's git back to the iron age where men were men and pine cones were nervous' rant and one of Mabus' autodegenerated thingies into a Markov chain-based synth... cranked out some random text with their stuff as source...

... and the book of Revelations came out.

... with some modifications, sure. There was some stuff like: 'and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and he had a pine cone in his ass...'

(/Anyway, my point is: be afraid.)

Posted by: rawnaeris | December 8, 2009 10:26 PM

Hmmm, I seem to have succeeded in pissing off my first troll.

I'm not a scientist, huh. Tell that to my honored professors, of whom no few were brilliant women themselves. Tell that to my University, as I'm supposed to be graduating with a Chemistry degree Saturday. Now that that particular insult is out of the way let's see what I can do with the rest of your mess.

Forgive me if I do not hit every point of your rather verbose post.

Canard 1) Evolution is not racist, it doesn't give a flying fuck. It is the explanation for how we got here to have this conversation in the first place.

Canard 2)I don't drive a Smart-Car. And I'm not anywhere close to an Environmental Scientist, so I admit I'll happily punt that one to anyone else who wants it.

Canard 3)Science does make life better. Where do you think that computer you're typing on came from?

Canard 4)Never mind you're just repeating yourself now.

As to the 'bend over and take it' comments, you've already made it quite clear that you prefer the dick to the cunt, so no thanks.

Posted by: efrique | December 8, 2009 10:27 PM

Oh, how I love this robust and rowdy mob.

Reading the comments has left a smile on my face.

What delight.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 8, 2009 10:31 PM

not an America apologizer.

Posted by: Kristine | December 8, 2009 10:33 PM

Rumple No-minze whined:

You people are by far, not normal.

We're normal. You and your honey Sarah Palin are average. There's a diff.

Liberal women are usually extremely aggressive, sometimes almost homicidal.

All the more reason to keep us drunk and barefoot in the living room. You heard Janine, now make mine a Pale Ale and hop to it, chop chop!

Posted by: windy | December 8, 2009 10:35 PM

Stop feeding the goddamn troll, it's distracting people from mocking Prothero!

Posted by: llewelly | December 8, 2009 10:36 PM

John Morales | December 8, 2009 8:11 PM:

I'm willing to be corrected, but I think XX does mean female and XY does mean male (biologically speaking)¹,

Posted by: Rumpleforskin | December 8, 2009 10:39 PM

For all of you who deny my power to bring down a dictatoraship ... I have friends in very high places ... a single act of civil disobdeince ...

It doesn't even have to be violent. A simple act of pulling money out of certain funds acould mean downfall.

Now, about that potato mr. Soggy Buttwrinkles,

I have contacted my superior officer and he has instructed me to arrange for the potato to be inserted into you back side with the help of the gay man/thing here. He will push with his tiny terd stained pecker while I reach down your throat and pull from the other side. When His pecker reaches your tonsils, I have been instructed to place four to six drops of superglue there.

My superior officer also instructed me to bring you into Mississippi where these good ole boys will teach you a lesson in proper manhood techniquies and various scenarios.

Afterwards the ladies will prepare us some homeade ice cream for me to enjoy and you to use on your newly stretched anal cavity smeared with terd juice and bacon grease with just a hint of coon lard.

Sincerely,

Rumpleforeskin,

Your little dreamboat

Posted by: Lynna | December 8, 2009 10:42 PM

I suspect that for people socially and politically retarded enough to admire Palin, she can't make things worse in that respect, and can subversively make thing a little better---they identify with a powerful woman who's not a stay-at-home mom.

Smoggy, dear, fuck no you can't have the vibrating lingerie back. I've grown attached to it in ways even you can not imagine. And, I had the little motor thingie (female talk for all that engineering stuff we never understand) renovated, updated, up-revved, and equipped with LEDs.

Oh, but I didn't think .... maybe you want it back for yourself?... and you're not planning to give it to an inexperienced female? If so, I'll consider a shared-custody agreement. (I fear it would madden an inexperienced female, so we might also need to buy insurance).

Posted by: Spooky | December 8, 2009 10:45 PM

So, Rumpleforskin, I'll see you at the next Folsom Street Parade? o.O

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 8, 2009 10:47 PM

For all of you who deny my power to bring down a dictatoraship ... I have friends in very high places ... a single act of civil disobdeince ...

It took who was arguably the second worst tyrant of the twentieth century to bring down the worst tyrant. Yeah, man, Stalin was a great agent for your highly placed friend.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | December 8, 2009 10:51 PM

Rumpleshitforbrains wrote:

.. I have friends in very high places...

By this he means his buddy who's a jizz-mopper at a ninth floor whack-parlour.

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus | December 8, 2009 10:51 PM

DEAR, DEAR, DEAR RANCID FORESKIN

Wow, you are my type of good ol' boy! With an imagination like that for playful perversion you are a true son of the South. I always knew you good ol' boys were secret fetish fanciers, and this just confirms it.

I'll go you one better, though. While I'm being penetrated and glued, my friend Floyd Rubber...

(Oh Rumply, my sweet, you'll love him, he's 7 foot tall, immensely fat, completely bald and his penis has more piercings than Jesus)

...as I was saying, Floyd will offer you his latest boutique bdsm technique, which involves slitting open your man bag, unwinding your testes and knitting you a tubule-lace thong to wear while he flogs you a whip made from your own hide. It's a very memorable experience and one your sad flabby body will find quite uplifting. The technique has the double advantage that with your balls unraveled you won't be able to inflict anymore of your offspring on this unfortunate world.

Yours in Christian crotch crucifixion
SMOGGY

PS Why do you fundy's always have to make fun of my name? It's very hurtful and shows a lack of Christian spirit.

Posted by: Rumpleforeskin | December 8, 2009 10:52 PM

rawnaeris,

No you are not a scientist yet, You haven't graduated yet.

Besides what secular America hating religion hating conservative hating freedom hating university did you attend? harvard? yale? HA! both are a joke. They are crap colleges. They are known for their name only. They are as pro-socialist as it comes. In that case I won't even refere to them as an institution of education.

At leas your education is in chemistry. There's not much the Godophobics can change there (like they did with history), unless they still teach about those non-existant amino acids that randomly appeared out of nowhere and became living muck and one day turned into humans.

At least you can use your science to the betterment ofmankind. This crap about global warming is not making things better. it is harming everyone's life. They restrick everything. I hae enviromnentalists! The EPA should be abolished. They stick their noses into everyone's business. The terdlickers. I hope they come onto my property. It'll be a nice time to try my self defense story out, after all the smoke and fire is cleared.

Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | December 8, 2009 10:55 PM

I notice that everything having to do with education, knowledge and reality has a liberal bias to Rumpleshitskin up there. Must mean he's stupid as a turd.

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 8, 2009 10:55 PM

At leas your education is in chemistry. There's not much the Godophobics can change there (like they did with history), unless they still teach about those non-existant amino acids that randomly appeared out of nowhere and became living muck and one day turned into humans.

This fucker must be using a ventilator. He is way to stupid to remember to breathe.

Posted by: Spooky | December 8, 2009 10:57 PM

Indeed Sven, that last one was a Poe too far.

Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | December 8, 2009 11:01 PM

Indeed Sven, that last one was a Poe too far.

I for one would like to believe it's a poe, but there are people who thinks exactly like this.

Posted by: Rumpleforeskin | December 8, 2009 11:03 PM

Mr. Unpronouncable chinese sounding name man:

Why don't you be a fine southern gentle man and fetch them Pharyngula ladies some lemonade,

------------------

Sir, I cannot fetch the ladies some lemonade if the ladies have'nt finished making it yet. Dumbass.

_________________________________________

Dear Soggy Buttwrinkles,

I hate to inform you that your extra small terd stained shriveled pecker is now inoperable.

For repair, please see the instruction manual that is imbedded 16 inches up Josh's ass.

After you have retrieved the manual and removed the terd stains, please read chapter 3 setion 11, paragraph 14, verse 9. It clearly states that you should never unattach your pecker and leave in the microwave for extended periods of time. However if you fail to reasd the intructions, never fear. I'm sure you can always ask to borrow your wife's pecker when she's done with it.

Sincerely,

rumpleforeskin,

The master of terd disaster!

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 8, 2009 11:05 PM

It is tard night on Comedy Central. (No, I am not talking about Jeff Dunham. I try to pretend he does not exist.) Mike Huckabee is on The Daily Show and Andy Schlafly is on The Colbert Report.

Posted by: Lynna | December 8, 2009 11:08 PM

I posted this on December 3, on "The Same Sex Marriage Debate" thread, and am reprising it here as a partial reply to the discussion up-thread about what makes a male a male, and what makes a female a female.

It's a very basic mistake to assume that everyone is born either male or female. In an article titled "Either/Or", in the November 30, 2009 issue of The New Yorker, journalist Ariel Levy describes just some of the variations in gender and appearance:

In normal human development, when a zygote has XY, or male, chromosomes, the SRY—sex-determining region Y—gene on the Y chromosome “instructs” the zygote’s protogonads to develop as testes, rather than as ovaries. The testes then produce testosterone, which issues a second set of developmental instructions: for a scrotal sac to develop and for the testes to descend into it, for a penis to grow, and so on. But the process can get derailed. A person can be born with one ovary and one testicle. The SRY gene can end up on an X chromosome. A person with a penis who thinks he is male can one day find out that he has a uterus and ovaries. “Then, there is chromosomal variability that is invisible,” Anne Fausto-Sterling, the author of “Sexing the Body,” told me. “You could go your whole life and never know.”
All sorts of things can happen, and do. An embryo that is chromosomally male but suffers from an enzyme deficiency that partially prevents it from “reading” testosterone can develop into a baby who appears female. Then, at puberty, the person’s testes will produce a rush of hormones and this time the body won’t need the enzyme (called 5-alpha-reductase) to successfully read the testosterone. The little girl will start to become hairier and more muscular. Her voice may deepen, and her testes may descend into what she thought were her labia. Her clitoris will grow into something like a penis. Is she still a girl? Was she ever?
If a chromosomally male embryo has androgen-insensitivity syndrome, or A.I.S., the cells’ receptors for testosterone, an androgen, are deaf to the testosterone’s instructions, and will thus develop the default external sexual characteristics of a female. An individual with androgen-insensitivity syndrome has XY chromosomes, a vagina, and undescended testes, but her body develops without the ability to respond to the testosterone it produces. In fact, people with complete A.I.S. are less able to process testosterone than average women. Consequently, they tend to have exceptionally “smooth-skinned bodies with rounded hips and breasts and long limbs,” Dreger writes in “Hermaphrodites.”
People with incomplete A.I.S., on the other hand, could end up looking and sounding like Caster Semenya. Their bodies hear some of the instructions that the testosterone inside them is issuing.

Posted by: ursulamajor | December 8, 2009 11:11 PM

I'm in awe of this thread. Just hovering at the edge of the Women and Men of Pharyngula, makes me a happy camper indeed.

Thank you.

Posted by: Andyo | December 8, 2009 11:15 PM

He got something right though.

I do need a woman.

Posted by: Aratina Cage | December 8, 2009 11:15 PM

Mr. Unpronouncable chinese sounding name man

Korean- dipshit. You're too uneducated to realize that standard Mandarin lacks a j semivowel.

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 8, 2009 11:20 PM

Oops! I just realized that Rumpyhumpy could be taken as homophobic.

I need a good spanking!

Posted by: Kristine | December 8, 2009 11:22 PM

*Lightbulb* Hey, you know what we should all do, athy "girls"?

We should all individually e-mail Prothero, thank him, and then facetiously proceed to dish each other.

"Did you see what Amanda Gulledge was wearing?" etc. Hell, I can feed you things to say about me.

When Prothero is inundated with phony bitchy, backstabby e-mails, he'll either buy into it or realize he's been had. Either way, it would be funny!

Posted by: Ron Sullivan | December 8, 2009 11:25 PM

Prothero precis: we're all arrogant white men

The fuck we are. Well, I am white except for the red and purple bits.

OK, polite version: What you mean "we," white man?

Believe it or not, I've heard this sort of crap from all directions. Pfaugh. Anyone who wants kinder and gentler can do it himfuckingself; I'm bitter. That's a virtue.

Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | December 8, 2009 11:27 PM

And before any can say that he could have been using Cantonese (unlikely as he probably thinks it's the same thing), Standardized jyutping doesn't have a -eong final. The closes it would have been is -ung in jyutping. It would be Ang Fa Pui or Ang Fa Pok in Canto./linguistics

Posted by: Lynna | December 8, 2009 11:37 PM

Oh, crap. I see I accidentally messed up the line breaks in AJ Milne's Iambic poetry. I refer readers back to comment 203 (assuming it will still be the same number after PZ cleans up the droppings).
Maybe a link to the comment will work

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | December 8, 2009 11:39 PM

Haley @ 225:

Is it too much to ask for, to want the choice to not play that role all the time? To be loud, blunt, disagreeable?

I'd say the point is more one of women simply being accepted as people, in whatever role they want in life.

Prothero made too much of Mrs. AlabamaHousewife taking a plane! and riding a subway! for the first time ever! Oh my. In doing so, he made it clear what his ideal of womanhood is, let alone his ideal of the right kind of atheist woman.

Prothero's ideal leaves no room whatsoever for all of us females who don't fit the "happy homemaker mommy who has an appropriately quiet stance in regard to any thoughts she might have".

Posted by: SlantedScience | December 8, 2009 11:41 PM

It may have been pointed out already, but: "possessor of two X chromosomes in every cell"?

So, she has red blood cells with DNA and diploid eggs???

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | December 8, 2009 11:41 PM

The old rule of comedy still works for Poes. You can go the well three times, then it is no longer funny. Still some learnin' to do kid.

Posted by: No BS | December 8, 2009 11:42 PM

-Rumple what ever-

See the thing is that atheist chicks are not only smarter, but they are waaaay better lovers. But you'll never be able to make the comparison, will you? Because atheist chicks won't "do you" just because you have a V-8... or a light bulb.

Posted by: Kristine | December 8, 2009 11:57 PM

Shall I compare Proth to a bummer's neigh?
He is more smarmy and more damn irate:
Rough winds do shake their schoolmarm digits, aye,
When blowhard's lease hath all too long a prate:
Sometime too clear the eye of reason shines,
And often is his gold name ill used;
And every appeaser oft in vain opines,
That ours or nature's honest course be bruis'd;
But Proth's so-called summer shall not 'suade
Nor gain possession of that fair he seeketh;
Nor shall Science brag he wast in his glade,
When evolution reaches its one-hundred fiftieth:
So long as [wo]men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives those who without faith will be.

Just a sweet little poem I hammered out whilst revising my paper. (Sorry, William!)

Posted by: Torrie | December 8, 2009 11:59 PM

Posted by: Rumpleforeskin #175

I agree with some of your Palin analysis. I think she is strong and smart. She's done a lot of good things for AK. I admire her tremendously as a female, as i am old school feminist. She may not have been worldly when it comes to global politics, although she is improving all the time, but she is very smart and resourceful. In fact, the only thing really bad about her is her religion. She, like most religious people, have been sheltered from reality and not been exposed to atheism. It really pissed me off when she kissed Billy Graham's ass the other day and spouted off a bunch of religious stuff to impress him and other christians. Saying we are all born with a voided soul to fill, that just frosted my ass and I have let her know I am pissed about that on her twitter, not that she saw it, who knows.

Her biggest mistake is dragging her personal religious dogma into the the political arena. people don't want leaders that spew religion. The comment about Palin using her anatomy to get where she is I find disgusting, distasteful, and pretty-much false. She has sex appeal and she works it, but she also has a mind. If she dropped the religion, she'd be a lot more popular, because she has Independents' and some moderate Dems' attention and interst, but she'll never get them with her religious agenda. I hope not, anyway. I think there are more than 10% Atheists in this country and I think she needs to include them in her world. I think we should send her atheist books.

Posted by: Eidolon in middle Georgia | December 9, 2009 12:04 AM

Nawh, introduce him to Mrs. Dr. Eidolon for a good eviscerating.

She's been charting X chromosomes and Grandmas all night, plus she took a full dose of Rachel Maddow against that anti-humanity idiot on the Maddow show tonight.

The girls rule the atmosphere over here tonight because of this shit, and rightfully so. I'm going to do whatever they say.

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 9, 2009 12:09 AM

She's been charting X chromosomes and Grandmas all night, plus she took a full dose of Rachel Maddow against that anti-humanity idiot on the Maddow show tonight.

That was something to behold. Her show should soon be available as a podcast. Go to roughly thirty five minutes in. Her talk with Richard Cohen is a scream. Loved it when he claimed he was a victim of a hate crime.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 9, 2009 12:26 AM

Sara Palin? "Smart"?

Are you kidding?

Posted by: John Morales | December 9, 2009 12:41 AM

Torrie @244:

She [Palin] has sex appeal and she works it [...]

Um. Assuming (generously, and purely for the sake of argument) that she does, what does that have to do with her expressed views or her credibility?

Sheesh.

Posted by: Utakata | December 9, 2009 12:48 AM

@ #175, Rumpleforeskin wrote inpart:

"Bill Ayers (fascist terrorist who somehow landed a job as a teacher - the land of opportunity, maybe we'll offer bin laden a position at Harvard)"

From what I've seen your of posts, Mr. Rumpleforeskin, I thought fascist terrorists are your friends. At least there appears to be no difference between your beliefs and theirs.

I also find it ironic that you would use such a liberal named handle to bash liberals. Perhaps you really don't believe in the nonsense you spout. Non?

Posted by: Bruce Gorton | December 9, 2009 12:52 AM

Time for a rant:

The pioneer of it was Madelyn Murray O'Hair - she got prayer out of the schools.

The atheist bus campaign? You know, the one the press keeps on trying to paint as a Dawkins initiative? Ariane Sherine.

The whole claim that female voices would "calm us down" is insulting to the very female figures that played instrumental roles in the formation of the movement.

Posted by: Aquaria | December 9, 2009 12:57 AM

BWAHAHAHAHA

Prothero, you fucktard, google my handle here, Aquaria + Mooney to see just how vicious a female can be, and just how it made Mooney cry like a two-year-old off the tit.

And then go fuck yourself, you ignorant toad.

Posted by: gyeong-hwa | December 9, 2009 1:06 AM

I wish you would let us know. But I can understand the need to shield one's self.

Shield myself? Hardly, why I leave so much crumb trails to my actually identity that I anticipate being stalked lol. Gyeong Hwa Pak was a failed attempt at staying in touch with my 1/16 Korean heritage. (Failed because Pak is the surname and should proceed Gyeong Hwa in proper rendering.)

It's Guerry-
You would pronounce it Gary, but I've gotten Jerry, Goo-ary, and Gwary. It's suppose to a bad attempt at romanizing my unofficaly Khmer name Kiri (meaning mountian chain) (unoffical because in Cambodia, Thailand, and Laos I go under another hard to pronounce name).

Posted by: Kristy | December 9, 2009 1:12 AM

@hystericalwhinybitch #253 If you are who I think you are, you were banned for taking matters into your own hands by making abusive remarks in the forums and indulging in trollish behaviour instead of taking your complaints through the correct channels. In short, you ignored the cardinal rule of Nexus - "Don't be a Jerk".

Also, if you are who I think you are, you created multiple identities on Atheist Nexus which is clearly against the forum guidelines.

There is no-one more supportive of females in atheism than Brother Richard of Atheist Nexus and he has taken decisive action on sexism on the site on several occasions. In fact, ion addition to Richard's wife and two daughters, Richard's three closest advisers are all females.

What is considered 'sexist' can sometimes be subjective and Richard, sensibly, seeks a broad range of opinions on complaints of this sort. I recall that you were unhappy when the jury (which included females) did not rule entirely in your favour.

PZ's blog is not the place to slug out issues from other forums, and this is the last comment I will make on this topic. However, I could not let a comment misrepresenting Atheist Nexus or Brother Richard as being sexist, stand unopposed.

I hope you will behave better on PZ's blog than you did on Nexus and in the AFA forums.

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | December 9, 2009 1:20 AM

This whole (except for certain trolls) thread is made of win!

This friendlier atheism sounds more like a civil rights movement than a crusade. And it is far more likely to issue from the lips of friendly women than from the spittle of angry men.

Gosh, I guess that's why friendliness was so instrumental in the Civil Rights movement. Rosa Parks is famous because she was so friendly to the oppressors.

Great googly moogly this guy's an asshole. What a gross display of privilege and a complete misunderstanding history. Why the hell should I be friendly to people who think I don't deserve to be a citizen because I don't believe in god(s). I refuse to ingratiate myself to the religious by being something I'm not. I an obnoxious, loud-mouthed, intelligent woman.

Posted by: Pascalle | December 9, 2009 2:16 AM

The only reason i have been a bit silent online recently is because i'm sharpening my nails and teeth to rip people new holes :)

Posted by: toomanytribbles | December 9, 2009 2:38 AM

the prothero's article is deeply sexist and insulting.

if anything, i, an atheist woman, feel that dawkins is one of the nicest and most polite intellectuals i've seen, especially as he is repeatedly faced with piles of ignorance, and you, pz, are waaaay too soft-spoken... when you're speaking. your writing style is spot-on.

i've embraced the writing of all four horsemen because they express what i'm thinking.

'There are plenty of female atheists and agnostics out there.' - prothero

yes, there are, and he would not like to get into an argument with this one.

Posted by: Aquaria | December 9, 2009 3:24 AM

Posted by: Janine, She Wolf Of Pharyngula, OM | December 9, 2009 1:08 AM
Aquaria! The idea is to whack off, not to tweeze it off!

I'm not a guy, but doesn't it help to find it first...?

Posted by: Pascalle | December 9, 2009 3:40 AM

I felt all fired up to make this big ass post to rumpleguythingy.. but i'm not going to if he really is a poe..

What was the verdiect? is he?

Posted by: astrocricket | December 9, 2009 4:02 AM

I just cracked a grin a mile wide, thinking what Ayaan Hirsi Ali could tell Prothero about the mildness of non-white, non-male atheists.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | December 9, 2009 4:30 AM

oh fuck, I only now noticed that that numbskull Prothero listed Susan Jacoby as one of the "gentler atheists".

idiot.

Posted by: Katkinkate | December 9, 2009 4:41 AM

Posted by: AJ Milne @ 203 "... Mebbe he meant 'Iambic terrorist?'
They're terrifying, those...
I mean, it's one thing having to cope with manifestos 'n bombs... but when all the manifestos are in iambic verse, fuuuuck:
'Find in this note our d'mands outlined:
Release our friends or you will find
More annoying verse in this sing-song metre
That drives men mad and makes a reader
Wish the author had used any other...
(/So cough 'em up now. We mean it, brother.')"

L.O.L. :()

You are in fine form tonight, my friend. And so is everyone else on this thread. This discussion has had me giggling all afternoon.

Love you guys!

Posted by: TheVirginian | December 9, 2009 4:58 AM

Wow, one more posting before the guillotine hits the un-registered. Not sure if I'll be back after tonight. But I had to comment on Rumple-flaccid's verbal excretions, which I just read.
He claims his critics musta gone to Yale, Harvard or some other "liberal" institution. Well, I say Rumpled-slacker is the product of a diarrhetic bowel movement, and I went to those hyper-liberal schools Virginia Tech and Louisiana State University. You know, dens of communism.
Also, I've held jobs in central Mississippi, north and south Louisiana, and on the Texas/Arkansas border, and not once have I had anyone like Rumple-Penis-Breath perform any of the sexual fantasies he bloviates about on me.
Oh, and I just spent a day visiting with some friends from Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana (one of them a good-ole-boy sheriff's detective who probably could teach Rumpled-Toilet-Paper the proper use of a nightstick) and none of them violated my inner space, so to speak.
I also just got a holiday gift from some good friends from south Mississippi, who have been working for some years in south-central Louisiana now (they're no more susperstitious than I am, I must add). They've sent me delicious pecans every December for several years.
So Rumpled-and-Brown-Stained-Bed-Sheet is representative of only some people in Mississippi. I can attest, from years of work and visiting there, that Mississippi also has its share of decent, intelligent, civilized people. Fewer than there ought to be, but they are there nonetheless. Don't take this troll as evidence for anything except his vicious, Christian-based pathology.

Posted by: TheVirginian | December 9, 2009 5:04 AM

Drat! Too many typos. "Agaisnt" and "promotes" for a plural subject. What a way to go out!!!!
Aaaaaaarrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhh!!!!

Posted by: Rachel Bronwyn | December 9, 2009 5:12 AM

This is a rant!

I love the horseshit her groupies spew about Palin being a feminist. Don't make me laugh! Being moderately successful and having some degree of influence as well as a vagina is not feminism. Sarah Palin is in favour of taking away women's rights regarding choosing to end pregnancies. She also encourages religious constructions of gender, whereby men and women are so different that they must fulfill different roles in society, which further shrinks the pool of opportunities available to women.

For goodness sakes, she participated in pageants! What is more anti-feminist than putting yourself in an activity in which you are judged predominantly on your appearance and behaviour and how appealing it is to the majority of heterosexual men? Intelligence and capability are of little importance in pageantry. That's practically screaming "My validity as a human being is dependent upon how appealing I am superficially to straight men!" Barf. The pageantry background certainly explains why she took no issue with being chosen as VP candidate based on her sex, age and attractiveness as opposed to merit though.

Regarding the breed of feminist represented by pissed off man-haters, I don't like them either. The concept that Palin behaves like a "lady" is ridiculous though. She's arrogant, condescending and dismissive. Her absolute obliviousness to her lack of knowledge and inability to take responsibility for her constant blunders is positively infantile.

Rant over.

On a less ranty note, my vagina will be of absolutely no calming effect on the angry male atheist community. Shit – I’m worse behaved than most of the big name “new atheists”. I find many of them very eloquent if passionate and could learn from them how to curb my vitriol. I guess my lack of subservience to men and outspoken nature mean I’m not really a woman anyways though. Someone told me, if I used my brain instead of being pregnant and nursing all the time, my reproductive organs would be deprived of blood and would shrivel and die, leaving me an androgyne. Sorry, ovaries.

Posted by: Shadowjack | December 9, 2009 5:42 AM

"..niceness isn't a factor in resolving truth claims, anyway."

I'm sooo gonna get this tatooed on my butt.

JS:)

Posted by: Richard Eis | December 9, 2009 6:46 AM

Damnit, I go to bed and miss a load of gay sex...um talk.

Interestingly I heard that the name Rumplestiltskin represented a dick with a big subtext on how women not doing what they are told turns men off or some such crap. After all, whats a stilt with a rumpled skin? eh? That would explain his troll name but seems a bit high brow for the average troll.

That being said, there has got to be a mould somewhere that prints out trolls with exactly the same beliefs about minorities...and a taste for Palin...who drink while shitting all over blogs.

Posted by: Michelle R | December 9, 2009 8:21 AM

As a woman I can tell you I often lift my honorary middle finger to folks like that guy.

My tolerance is at 0.

Posted by: curiosity | December 9, 2009 10:27 AM

From Prothero's article:
"Although the arguments of angry men gave this movement birth, it could be the stories of women that allow it to grow up.Although the arguments of angry men gave this movement birth, it could be the stories of women that allow it to grow up."

What, women aren't supposed to argue, just tell stories? Oops.

I'll tell you a story: Once upon a time, in a land far far away, genitalia did not determine one's ability to argue, reason, think. In that mythical land, genitalia also did not determine one's manner of speech - people without protruding sexual organs were allowed to speak the same way as people with. Shocking, I know.

"There was much genuflecting to Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins and Dennett as "The Four Horsemen" — a moniker that seems to be sticking despite the allusion to the biblical book of Revelation"

I thought the allusion was a good part of the reason why the nickname was sticking? I mean, it's why I like it.

"I wouldn't walk around the block to hear Fred Edwords take cheap shots at Christians. But I'd get on the subway, and maybe even a plane, to hear Amanda Gulledge tell me why her kids are Americans, too."

What about the female atheists who want to take cheap shots at Christians, eh?

Too much bad reasoning, too many insulting assumptions, and too much condescension. Maybe he should have actually looked at the messages of the people he listed before googling "female atheists" and labeling all who appeared "gentler." Or maybe he should have talked to a women since the 1950s.

Posted by: aharleygyrl | December 9, 2009 11:16 AM

I have a new idea for the atheist billboard campaign, they should promote Atheism as normal and religion as abnormal.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawntEU60bc0__0bph263cXqvZgqX-Hoq7hQ | December 9, 2009 12:56 PM

...and presumably during mitosis the mother cell (if only briefly) contains 4X chromosomes?

Posted by: amandamom | December 9, 2009 2:07 PM

http://open.salon.com/blog/sweetscandalousskeptic/2009/12/09/ill_take_a_little_carnegie_with_my_pharyngula

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | December 9, 2009 2:41 PM

I've been described on Pharyngula as a young male by those who don't know me -- and this is despite using my real, and rather feminine name.

Posted by: Cath the Canberra Cook | December 9, 2009 5:04 PM

Speaking as one of those delicate blossoms of womanhood, a kindly gentle lady who only blogs most sweetly of the noble feminine pastime and duty of cookery, may I invite Prothero to go fuck himself sideways with a rusty chainsaw?

And hello everybody! I have a new job, and suddenly have much less pharyngula time.

Posted by: eryoshimura | December 9, 2009 6:12 PM

Acronym Jim @107: "Nerd of Redhead, I won't apologize for assuming you were female because I don't consider assumptions of sex (of either sex) to be insulting"

Thank you for this. I agree wholeheartedly!

Posted by: Teshi | December 10, 2009 5:37 PM

"Theists are masters at seeing fantastical conceptions as more real than reality; scientific explanations go right over their head (or as with Palin, they have some kind of built-in deflector for the cold, hard facts of reality — like tomatoes)."

Well, exactly. But I don't think this is rare among humans. I think it takes significant effort to thinking scientifically which is why doing science to it is like firing bullets at a ghost.

ps. How do I do proper quotes?

Posted by: John Morales | December 13, 2009 12:41 AM

Sigh. Sorry Teshi, I got distracted, that's for linking. For quoting:

<blockquote>quoted text</blockquote>

Posted by: godlessfeminist.wordpress.com | December 20, 2009 5:03 AM

If you are who I think you are, you were banned for taking matters into your own hands by making abusive remarks in the forums and indulging in trollish behavior instead of taking your complaints through the correct channels. In short, you ignored the cardinal rule of Atheist Nexus — "Don't Be a Jerk."

Well Kristy (#262), hystericalwhinybitch isn't the first or only one of your "sisters" that you've thrown under the bus on the A|N site. I would also add that you vehemently defended a vicious misogynist on my A|N blog (no longer there, since I left A|N and all content disappeared due to a Ning thing).

Before I left Atheist Nexus because of misogyny that is accepted, if not promoted, under the pretense of "freedom of speech", you belittled another one of your atheist "sisters" and threw her under the bus on my blog challenging Atheist Nexus's failure/refusal/neglect to address the misogyny problem — after she posted a laundry list of misogynist quotes from your (and Bro. Richard's) atheist golden boy among several other "angry white males" on A|N —after her repeated complaints to Bro. Richard availed nothing.

You and Bro Richard say "take complaints through the appropriate channels." Well, she did. Didn't do any good. She might as well have prayed to an imaginary God — she'd have gotten results just as quick.

I also challenge you — and Bro. Richard and company — to apply that "cardinal rule of Atheist Nexus" ("Don't Be a Jerk") to your golden boy — the privileged white atheist dood who posted on A|N that he admired and supported middle class white males who go postal killing women in workplaces because of all the "overpaid humans with internal genitalia" (women).

This same favored atheist "son" recently slandered and libeled me quite viciously on an A|N thread after I left because of complulsory birth ("pro-life") and rape apologia coming from "rational", "logical", cleverer-than-thou men who are so far educated beyond their mental capacity, they lost all common sense.

Apparently, suborning cyberbullying, libel, slander, and promoting acts of terrorism against women by "angry white males" isn't subject to the "Don't Be a jerk" rule — it's "free speech!"

Many of his other posts reek with misogyny and a sense of white male entitlement — very similar to the sentiments expressed by angry white Christian males like Timothy McVeigh (OKC bomber), Eric Rudolph (abortion clinic bomber), Scott Roeder (Dr. George Tiller's murderer), and Pat Robertson whose immortal words were: "feminists are godless un-Americans who just want to destroy capitalism, leave their husbands, kill their babies, and become lesbians."

I am a feminist first and an atheist second because a feminist voice that challenges blatant misogyny, injury, and social injustices that the dominant group (middle class/rich white males with advanced educations)would never tolerate being subjected to, is needed on the feminist front more than on the "New Atheist" front because injustice against women is a huge problem — in THIS country, let alone globally. Yet, many men in atheism feel it's perfectly fine to aim rationalization for injustices at underprivileged women.

There are innumerable forums on Atheist Nexus on which men blame feminists for everything that patriarchy set up. Patriarchy goes hand-in-hand with Abrahamic monotheism, like peas and carrots. Refusing to coddle white male sense of entitlement automatically earns an atheist feminist the label of "castrating man-hating bitch."

It's not feminism that foments resentment of feminists towards men; it's patriarchy. And patriarchy is incompatible with atheism. All atheism is not enlightenment and freedom if only male atheists benefit while feminist women atheists are kept as second-class atheists.

I'm more concerned with dismantling religion a structure of oppression against women than I am in debating religious arguments with individual theists. But because I am just some "dumb woman" (I didn't have $130,000 to afford my seat in either law school or grad school) without a science degree, what I think and what I have to say doesn't count.