…and this is a 
Can you bear yet another case of religion-rationalized child abuse?
Over three months in 2006, as her five children grew more emaciated and listless by the day, Estelle Walker made no move to find a job, no effort to scrounge up a meal, her kids told a jury yesterday.
"We were supposed to wait for God to provide," said Walker's oldest daughter, now 21. "And that's what we did."
At one point, the daughter said, she and her siblings went 11 days without food. When police were at last summoned to the Sussex County cabin by neighbors, investigators found the children so malnourished they had difficulty talking.
You would think that after watching her own children waste away for months, she'd realize that god will not provide. Never has and never will.
Comments
Posted by: Julies | December 5, 2009 10:23 AM
But she will STILL say God provided. She'll say God sent the police to bring her children to the food they needed.
There's no way to make these people think rationally. None.
Posted by: Mark H. | December 5, 2009 10:31 AM
Hopefully one, or more, of her children will break the cycle of believing in something that does not exist and instead use rationality and reason to guide their lives. Then again, maybe not.
Posted by: sasqwatch | December 5, 2009 10:34 AM
God brought a car, then a boat, then a helicopter, then a social worker, then a homeless shelter... and we all went to heaven in a little row boat.
Posted by: Hank Fox | December 5, 2009 10:36 AM
It's our failing as a society, a failing due to the poison of religion, that such people aren't instantly recognized as insane. Far as I know, the mental health professions still don't have a category for "religious illness."
Posted by: rfvawer | December 5, 2009 10:37 AM
Julies hit the nail on the head. Even when they're shown they were wrong, they'll still twist events in such a way that fits with religious beliefs.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
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December 5, 2009 10:42 AM
God doesn't seem to care about taking care of children. He lets them be raped, starved and killed and doesn't lift a finger to help them. Unless they're not born yet. Then the goddists tell us he gets all huffy about them.
Posted by: Angry | December 5, 2009 10:47 AM
And they keep saying religion isn't dangerous...
Posted by: Vestrati | December 5, 2009 10:57 AM
Maybe Jesus will provide her with a straight jacket and a padded cell.
Posted by: limmah
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December 5, 2009 10:58 AM
If she actually got a job and bought food, etc., would the religious then say, "See? God helps them that help themselves!"
Posted by: One Eyed Jack | December 5, 2009 11:00 AM
Reminds me of the old joke where a man is standing on his house as flood waters rise around him. Rescue workers try to get him out on two different boats and a helicopter. He refuses them all, saying "God will save me."
Eventually he drowns. When he meets God, he asks why He didn't save him. God says, "I sent two boats and a helicopter. What more do you want?"
Posted by: heironymous
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December 5, 2009 11:00 AM
Sad. Just sad.
Posted by: Pygmy Loris | December 5, 2009 11:00 AM
What is wrong with these people? I cannot imagine letting any child starve in front of me.
Posted by: One Eyed Jack | December 5, 2009 11:03 AM
@ Angry #7
No doubt this woman has deeper mental issues than her religious beliefs.
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | December 5, 2009 11:03 AM
They would – even though that's not in the Bible. Instead it's a heathen Roman proverb: Fortuna audaces adiuvat – Good Luck, commonly personified as a goddess, helps the brave ones.
Posted by: strangest brew | December 5, 2009 11:07 AM
Another nail in the coffin of the stinking reaking effluent that cowers there pleading intolerance for jeebus or the brats rather layabout daddy dear.
There will come a time...fast approaching...that this abomination of self inflicted sickness will be relegated to where it belongs the sewer of ridiculous and dangerous piffle.
Posted by: Andyman | December 5, 2009 11:08 AM
Reminds me of a joke.
During a torrential flood a guy clings to dear life on a tree when a guy in a boat comes along.
"You want any help?" The boatman asks.
"No thanks. All I need is God to save me." The tree guy yells back.
"Okay then" says the boatman and he leaves.
Five minutes later another boat comes to the flailing man in the tree.
"You want any help?" The boatwoman asks.
"No thanks. All I need is God to save me." The tree guy yells back.
"Suit yourself," she answers back and leaves.
10 minutes later the tree snaps and the man drowns to his death.
Before entering heaven he encounters God himself.
"Hey what gives, I honestly hoped that you would save me from certain death" he whines.
"But I did try" God snaps back, "I sent two boatpeople to save you."
Posted by: flea | December 5, 2009 11:10 AM
Yes, please, let gawd defend her!Posted by: iasasai
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December 5, 2009 11:13 AM
@ David #14
If I remember right, that phrase has also been translated as "Fortune favors the bold".
Posted by: IaMoL | December 5, 2009 11:17 AM
Andyman: Not only have we heard that joke umpteen times, PZ has threatened to throw anyone who repeats that tired little piece in the dungeon.
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | December 5, 2009 11:18 AM
That's pretty much the same, except I'd say "favor" is much too abstract, adiuvare is the normal word for "help".
Posted by: Andyman | December 5, 2009 11:20 AM
D'oh, my mistake then
Posted by: Sili
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December 5, 2009 11:22 AM
Turnip?
Someone is pilfering the Thread that goes on and on and on and on again.
Posted by: mattand | December 5, 2009 11:23 AM
Anyone find it interesting that the church was based in Times Square? So much for liberal NYC that conservatives are always yammering on about.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip | December 5, 2009 11:26 AM
So, in that joke about the guy in the flood, does God send the dude's soul to Hell? Bit of a broken Aesop if the guy goes on to eternal happiness anyway.
Posted by: Pablo | December 5, 2009 11:26 AM
I thought PZ put a moritorium on that stupid "I sent you a boat, yadda, yadda, yadda" story?
Posted by: Hank Fox | December 5, 2009 11:27 AM
Reminds me of a new joke.
Batman is hanging from a frayed rope on top of an ice-covered skyscraper. A helicopter flies over and a voice calls, “Batman, you need any help?” Batman says “No, I’m pretty sure Robin is around here somewhere. He’ll rescue me.” A few minutes later a professional ice climber comes around a corner and climbs past. “You need any help, Batman? I have some extra crampons and bolts.” “No thanks, I’m fine. Robin will be here any second.” A window washer standing on an elevated plank motors by. “Hey, Bats! Your rope is like totally frayed, man! Jump on and I’ll lower you to the ground, dude.” “No, I’m fine, really. Gotta keep up the mysterious never-ask-for-help thing, you know?” A second later Batman’s rope breaks and he falls to his death, shouting “Robin, you jackass! Jesus Fucking Christ!!” Bystanders on the ground gather around his bloody corpse. One says “Jeez, who knew? Batman was a devout Christian.”
Posted by: Orson Zedd
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December 5, 2009 11:30 AM
I don't think religion is explicitly a culprit here, but it is definitely responsible. When you tell someone that all your needs will be cared for, some people will see that as reason to not work.
At my parents church, there's a family called the Bramletts. They have no table manners or social manners. They show up once a week to get handouts from the hardworking parishioners, or to potluck so they can eat, and fill up five carry out plates.
I often wonder why they make no attempt to better their standing. Why, when all of your kids have learning disabilities and developmental problems, you would choose to not work for a living, and instead live on the handouts of the gullible?
I imagine religion kicks in here. It reinforces the laziness by providing a set of people willing to be taken advantage of and telling others that "God will provide," and "None of your problems are bigger than you can bear."
My brother is a fanatical religious man. He insists that God will tell him what to do. "Sign up for my MCAT? No, God will take care of that. I want to take a semester off, and mission in China. What do you mean how do I plan on living? God will provide, of course. What a silly question to ask."
Posted by: Torrie | December 5, 2009 11:31 AM
These Christian idiots remind me of the cults back in the 70s. Shrinks were often called in to de-program these people who had lost their brains in cults. I wish we had that going on with mainstream religions, as well as, all religions.
Everytime you get into a conversation with one, they all say the same thing, "I've had a personal experience with God, so I know he's real". It really pisses me off to see fellow humans so delusional about the world. They call us arrogant. Were not arrogant, we're living in reality. Reality seems to be hard for a good majority of humans, apparently. And, it annoys the hell out of the rest of us.
Posted by: Andyman | December 5, 2009 11:31 AM
Okay, okay, I'm sorry. I didn't know the boat joke was just like a Fox News headline.
Posted by: PZ Myers
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December 5, 2009 11:31 AM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Not that stupid joke again!
Death to everyone who repeats the joke!
Posted by: Moggie
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December 5, 2009 11:33 AM
Does this church believe in God?
Ok, kudos to the church for a charitable act. But it seems their charity had limits:
Sounds like even church members think it's bullshit when you claim God talks to you. "Yeah, lady, ok, maybe God will feed your kids, because we won't".
Posted by: Andyman | December 5, 2009 11:34 AM
Need I apologise again :'( I'm sorry
Posted by: raven | December 5, 2009 11:35 AM
Five kids? Well, her quiver is half full.
The quiverfulls most likely are a tiny group chiefly known for being kooky in the 21st century.
I wonder how many morons have 5 or 15 kids because they are simple to produce and now have no idea how to feed, clothe, and educate them?
"The lord will provide." I suspect for many of these, the lord is the same as public services aka welfare and food stamps.
Didn't read the article yet. Were the kids home schooled and can they read and write? One would expect the older kids to leave and go for help, the oldest was 17 at the time.
Posted by: blf | December 5, 2009 11:35 AM
Death to everyone who repeats the joke!
Promise? I'm gotten rather tried of it. Whilst I don't support the death penalty, there are some very tempting exceptions…
Posted by: Matt Penfold | December 5, 2009 11:41 AM
Like having more than ten items in the ten items or less [sic] checkout at the supermarket ?
I would have such people dragged out the back and shot.
Posted by: Andyman | December 5, 2009 11:54 AM
Spose its time I accept my fate then. I never EVER saw the joke before on the site (I've only known this website since this time last year) and I feel like such a douche for going on this site and alienating even PZ. Okay now I can be dragged out back and shot.
Posted by: me | December 5, 2009 11:57 AM
Maybe the turnip will trickle down from Supply Side Jesus.
Posted by: blf | December 5, 2009 11:59 AM
Andyman, I'm willing to make and exception in your case. You can walk around to the back before being shot…
Unless, of course, you're one of those more-than-ten items clowns. In that case, well, in that case, I can't say, even the famously tolerant Pee Zed would have a fit if I said what should happen.
Posted by: sasqwatch | December 5, 2009 12:00 PM
Jiminy Crispix. Wasn't me. At least I tried to have some kind of class (by not telling it all the way through, and embellishing with a few topical nouns). It was all Andy's fault.
Which kind-of reminds me of a joke...
Posted by: Bentham | December 5, 2009 12:12 PM
It's okay. Mrs. Walker is No True Christian.
Posted by: artconserv
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December 5, 2009 12:14 PM
I had an aunt who died at the age of 46. In the 1950's she married a catholic who proceeded to get her pregnant 8 times, then abandoned her. When asked how he was going to support so many children, he said "God will provide." My aunt died of a stroke soon after he left her for a younger woman. My cousins were placed into foster care or sent to other relatives. Most are emotional messes, some are dead and one has just dropped off the face of the earth. God provided all right.
Posted by: red rabbit | December 5, 2009 12:17 PM
If god's so great at providing, you'd think he would have sorted out famine by now.
*sigh*
Delusions of... grandeur? Her family is more important than the millions of people around the world who die of malnutrition daily? Jail is too good for her, she should be made to go and help.
Posted by: vanharris
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December 5, 2009 12:21 PM
PZ, it's not a turnip that Jebus would give her. Don't you know anything? It'd be a banana, cos Jebus' dad intelligently designed them for human consumption.
Posted by: IDrinkKayak | December 5, 2009 12:35 PM
I've often struggled with the prospect that had I been born and raised under similar conditions as people like Ms. Walker, perhaps I would think and behave like they do. Would I have developed into the compassionate atheist I think I am now, or would I succumb to the indoctrination and become a danger to myself, my family and the society I live in?
While I would not absolve Ms. Walker of responsibility for her actions- it is your duty as a parent to provide for you kids' well-being -but perhaps the more sinister and true culrpit in cases like these is the perpetual indoctrination machine we call organized religion. I am equally disgusted by the people who enable and encourage this kind of behavior as I am with those who perpetrate it.
Posted by: Stanton
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December 5, 2009 12:35 PM
Once upon a time, there was a man who fell on hard times: he lost his job, and due to bad luck and unsound business advice, he lost everything he owned, save for the small house he lived in, the clothes on his back, and a small table and chair he prayed at.
He realized that, if he didn't do something, he was starve to death. So he prayed for God to save him.
The next day, his neighbor knocked at his door, and invited him over for dinner.
The man refused, saying, "No, God will provide for me."
The day after that, the man's other neighbor came over, and told him that he could take whatever fruit or vegetable he desired from her garden.
The man refused again, saying, "No, God will provide for me."
The week after that, the village where the man lived in was holding its annual "golden jackpot lottery," and the villagers rigged the lottery so the starving man won it. When the mayor came to present the man with the jackpot, the man declined, saying, "No, God will provide for me." The man's two snubbed neighbors then promptly claimed the jackpot on his behalf.
The month after that, a delivery truck to the village supermarket veered off the road and crashed into the man's little house. The truck driver offered to pay the man compensation, as well as let him have free food from the supermarket, but he still refused, saying, "No, God will provide for me."
The day after that, the man came to an epiphany, but before he could speak it, his internal organs crumbled to dust, and he died.
The man found himself in Heaven, more specifically, he found himself standing before the Throne of God, where he saw God, enthroned, with Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed standing to His right, and Colonel Sanders standing to His left, shoveling fried chicken into His mouth.
Before the man could take a breath to speak, God stood up.
I bet you're wondering why you're here. You're here because you rejected what I offered you. You have to realize that I did try to provide for you by sending your neighbors to you, and I softened the hearts of the villagers to rig the lottery, and my 3 Stooges over here came up with that nifty plan of crashing that food truck into your house.
"Well..."
And no, I refused to answer the spirit behind the words of your prayer because I would sooner end the world in a hail of fire and gassy radio pundits than to send Carmen Miranda down to you in a body of gingerbread so you can nibble your way back to health
Posted by: llewelly | December 5, 2009 12:41 PM
This thread reminds me of a story. It is a true story, we can be sure, though the protagonist remains unknown to us. Our story took place a long time ago, in New Orleans, right after Hurricane Betsy.
Billion Dollar Betsy flooded the entire lower ninth ward of New Orleans. Our protagonist was forced to climb onto his roof during the terrible storm to escape the flood waters. Being a devout Christian, he prayed to the Lord, and begged to saved. Then, powerful waves caused his roof to break free from his house, and float away. The poor man clung to his drifting, slowly sinking roof for dear life. Again he prayed.
After what seemed a long time, a man in a rowboat rowed by and offered him a lift. But our protagonist was a devout Christian, and he said he was confident the Lord would provide. The fragment of roof the man clung to began to come apart in the rough water. The man grew worried, and prayed again, but his faith did not waver. Some time later, another man came by, in a motor boat. The motor boat pilot tossed a rope in his direction and said: "Climb aboard!" But our protagonist, being devout, responded that he was sure the Lord would provide. Confused, the man in the motor boat went away. The bit of roof split in half, and one half sunk. Our protagonist now clung to a few shingles, and a single piece of rotted lumber. He prayed again. Soon, he saw a strong, sturdy log, perhaps 15 feet long, come floating directly toward him. It was a bit strangely shaped, but it moved with such purpose he became sure it was from the Lord. Finally, our brave protagonist abandoned his bit of roof, and swam toward the log. Just as he was about to wrap his arms around it, he saw a pair of eyes on the log. Then, a huge mouth, filled with long pointed teeth, opened up, and bit down on the poor man's torso. Having clamped down on its tasty prey, the alligator pulled the poor man under, and held him down until he drowned. The alligator feasted happily, pleased to have come into some good fortune on an otherwise terrible day.
The man's soul wafted up to Heaven, where he sought out the Lord. When he found the Lord, he asked, with great humility, "Dear Lord, I was a devout Christian all my life. I prayed for you to save me, and I believed that you would. Had I been saved, I would have gone on a third mission to spread your Gospel. Why didn't you save me?"
God looked a bit sheepish. Then, he threw up his hands. "There was nothing I could do. An ENTIRE THREAD of ATHEISTS prayed for an alligator to swim by and eat you."
Posted by: Deiloh | December 5, 2009 12:46 PM
She took the veggie tales episode about George Mueller just a little too seriously. Find and eat vegetables, the talking ones are dangerous!
Posted by: harv
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December 5, 2009 12:47 PM
A marine cold cocked a smart ass atheiest professor that was all dressed up with no place to go; so the atheist professor took a walk in the woods and was eaten by a Christian bear that said a prayer of thanks for the bounty provided.
Posted by: Sili
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December 5, 2009 1:02 PM
harv,
Needs more shitting pope.
Posted by: Interrobang | December 5, 2009 1:05 PM
I often wonder why they make no attempt to better their standing. Why, when all of your kids have learning disabilities and developmental problems, you would choose to not work for a living, and instead live on the handouts of the gullible?
The reason is pretty simple -- chances are pretty good that if all the kids are learning disabled and/or have developmental problems, there's something fundamentally wrong with the parents, too. I knew a family like that who also went to one of the many funnymentalist churches that infested the lives of my high school peers. The family I knew was working on what looked to be its third generation of mental retardation. It didn't surprise me that they'd drifted into the arms of a fundamentalist church; too often, those places are a kind of "assisted living" facility for people who don't have help that's smart enough to get them into the regular kind.
Posted by: Tanja Sova | December 5, 2009 1:11 PM
In former Yugoslavia there is a saying "to the one who works, God is providing". I guess the first part "WHO WORKS" was lost in translation or spilled out the other ear when this woman, like so many others, heard it. I do think it is not religion itself as a problem, yet the organizations that stands behind, and a church itself. Money is behind it all anyway, so successful higher rank church people do prove evolution in terms of fitness.
Posted by: harv
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December 5, 2009 1:14 PM
Sili,
...turns out the bear was Catholic and the Pope took a shit in the woods.
Still not quite right, but God is not finished with me yet.
Posted by: Rey Fox | December 5, 2009 1:15 PM
llewelly wins.
Posted by: Andreas Johansson | December 5, 2009 1:18 PM
To make it even more depressing, had the children actually starved to death, chances are she'd rationalized that one way or the other as God's benevolent will too.
Posted by: Pen | December 5, 2009 1:21 PM
Since God doesn't provide for the children of the ignorant, the stupid and the damaged, and if it seems unlikely that they can provide themselves (being ignorant, stupid and damaged), perhaps society needs to step in. Western societies can provide food for everyone, regardless of circumstances and worth (other than being human). I consider it an acceptable price myself, considering the alternatives.
P.S. I wasn't too comfortable with the knee jerk reaction of 'she didn't even try to get a job'. Maybe she could have, if she tried. But maybe not. There are people who are not very employable for reasons that I believe are outside their control and there's currently a lot of competition. If she had been out every day trying hopelessly to get a job while her kids starved, would that make us happier? Not me.
Posted by: blf | December 5, 2009 1:29 PM
I thought PapalShite™ was transported to heaven where it was blessed for its wisdom.
And then packed into Palin's head.
Posted by: Carlie | December 5, 2009 1:36 PM
Andyman, you were actually the third reference to the joke in this thread, so it wasn't just you.
Posted by: Torrie | December 5, 2009 2:14 PM
what i don't get: nearly all christians think anyone who prays for someone to get well instead of taking them to the dr is committing a horrible sin or whatever. they'd never do it. YET, the bible says all you have to do is pray and you get anything you ask for. the majority of christians incorporate both medicine and prayer and they somehow think that works. of course studies have shown that heart patients prayed for, do worse, especially if prayed for in person. but christians would never believe that.
i was talking to a pentecostal a while back about a sick friend of ours. she said, you see _______ just doesn't believe that god will heal her, that's why her prayers aren't working.
all christians rely on the illogic that if prayers are not answered, it is either the fault of the pray-er or god's will or god's plan or or whatever, thus a self-fulfilling prophesy.
but i sure don't understand why nearly all christians think prayer is not good enough to heal medical issues, yet it says in their doctrine if you pray, you will get what you ask for. i can just hear those crazy christians now, setting all these conditions on it and saying, you don't understand, blah blah blah blah....
Posted by: rmw | December 5, 2009 2:35 PM
Torrie @ 58,
I think I'd rather deal with Christians who believe in the power of prayer and medicine, rather than those who just believe in the power of prayer.
Posted by: Tabby Lavalamp | December 5, 2009 2:51 PM
So, Harv... You're one of those Old Testament religionists, huh. Your violent fantasies certainly point in that direction. As a non-American, your first at #48 post also does nothing but further my image of the United States Marine Corps as a gang of anger-fuelled, self-important, egomaniac assholes.
Posted by: sasqwatch | December 5, 2009 2:57 PM
Harv: your joke is also missing an extra set of footprints.
Posted by: sasqwatch | December 5, 2009 3:05 PM
tabby #60... aw, nevermind,
Posted by: Socks | December 5, 2009 3:07 PM
The woman probably had severe depression with catatonia. In these people, the part of the brain that tells muscles to move is very underactive. She may not have been able to get up even if the house caught on fire.
However, if she had not been using God as an excuse, someone might have realize she had a medical illness and step in much sooner to help the children.
Posted by: Torrie | December 5, 2009 3:12 PM
rmw @ 59
For sure. But, Christians can't even explain the simplest of contradictions in their bible without saying they didn't believe well enough or it's god's plan or it's god's will, whenever their praying or belief doesn't pan out how they envisioned. why follow a doctrine that doesn't actually provide?
Posted by: Torrie | December 5, 2009 3:23 PM
artconserv #41
That's a beautiful story of God's love. God really provides for us humans. We are so lucky that he killed his son so us horrid humans would live forever in heaven.
Posted by: tuckerch
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December 5, 2009 3:27 PM
Actually, the punchline for the flood, man and boat joke should be:
The flood waters rose, the man drowned.
The end.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
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December 5, 2009 3:27 PM
Torrie #58
The concept is that god intends for some guy to die but if he's begged and nagged enough, he'll change his mind. Or else he won't. God is a very fickle deity.
Posted by: Duncan | December 5, 2009 3:31 PM
"...police were at last summoned to the Sussex County cabin..."
I always knew there were some crazies in my back yard. I wonder if this woman attends the same church as my parents... The cap of NJ has always been a bit nutty. Growing up, I always used to say that there were more churches than cows.
Posted by: rmw | December 5, 2009 3:34 PM
Torrie @64,
"why follow a doctrine that doesn't actually provide?"
You just lack faith.
Actually, I say that in jest, but that seems to be the answer for why so many follow a religious doctrine. :-/
Posted by: Katharine | December 5, 2009 3:36 PM
This kind of shit makes Hulk want to smash.
There are some that aren't totally insane, but I mean, shit, why doesn't this put more people off having imaginary friends? Perhaps because most people are too fucking pathetic and stupid to know better?
No, really, most humans have shit for brains.
Posted by: Katharine | December 5, 2009 3:41 PM
It helps, I suppose, to remain cognizant of Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice what you can attribute to stupidity.
It has a corollary: Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
Sometimes, some world leaders seem so malicious that I wonder if they may secretly be totally incompetent, too. Kim Jong Il, for example. Or the Nazis. Or Ceausescu-style Communism. Or the American far right.
Posted by: Mike Daniels | December 5, 2009 3:52 PM
PZ at #30, will there be floggings first?
I want to watch the floggings. >rubbing hands together
Back on topic, I don't think religion encourages laziness (#27, re: Bramletts). I think these are lazy people who found a free meal ticket. The ability to "get by" without working for it, instead of a marginal improvement in circumstance by working hard, leads to the laziness.
Whenever you have someone willing to offer a handout, you'll find someone willing to take it.
Posted by: Romeo Vitelli | December 5, 2009 3:53 PM
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Not that stupid joke again!
Death to everyone who repeats the joke!"
Ok, how about another joke instead (there are a bunch of them on the same theme).
A woman, fearing that her business would fail and she would lose her house prayed to God to let her win the lottery.
Six months passed, she lost the house and the business and prayed for the lottery win again.
Another six months passed, she was out on the street and pleaded once more for the lottery win.
Finally God spoke to her with exasperation, "Meet me halfway at least. Buy a ticket".
Posted by: octopod | December 5, 2009 3:56 PM
Sili@49: if the bear was the Pope, does that fix it?
Posted by: MadScientist | December 5, 2009 4:06 PM
I pity the poor kids - imagine - 21 and not enough sense to leave and look for food. Have they no instincts or do they ignore instincts and cravings in favor of bullshit? The kids must have been kept locked up and brainwashed - this is why "home schooling" should be a criminal offense unless strict regulations are met (curriculum, accredited tutors, etc).
Posted by: Carlie | December 5, 2009 4:13 PM
Once there was a student who was doing really poorly in his biology class. He prayed "Dear God, please let me pass this class. I'll do anything to prove my devotion to you, but I just need to pass." He donated half of his week's food budget to church that Sunday, but failed that week's quiz.
He prayed again: "Please, I have to pass. Let me know what I should do." A few minutes later a child walked by, shivering in the cold without a coat, and so he went and collected coats in the neighborhood and took them to the Salvation Army thrift store. Then he failed the next quiz.
He prayed yet again:"Dear God, please, please let me pass this class. I'll prove that I'm worthy."
He went and donated blood, passed out, and missed class, therefore failing that week's quiz.
As the final approached, he prayed more, donated more money to the church, became ever weaker due to lack of money to buy food, spent his free time working at the church helping to put up Christmas decorations.
As he left the final exam, knowing he had failed miserably, he dropped to his knees in the hallway and said "Why, God, why? Why did you forsake me? Why didn't you help me pass this class?"
Behind him he heard the voice of another student saying "Dude, you should have just studied for the test."
Posted by: Casey | December 5, 2009 4:17 PM
My problem with that joke is that it would only teach a lesson to a person who was extraordinarily stupid to begin with. I mean, seriously, what person, christian or otherwise, wouldn't get on the boat? I've known a bunch of devout christians in my life, and every single one of them would have thought the boats were gifts from god and gotten on.
Of course, we all know that plenty of people have drowned at sea with neither helicopter, boat nor any other form of help ever made available to them, despite praying, one would assume, quite hard for such an opportunity. In the same way, I've known many poor people who desperately needed money, played the lottery at least every week, and never won anything.
Posted by: MadScientist | December 5, 2009 4:19 PM
@strangestbrew #15: News of the demise of religion are greatly overstated. Many such claims (or wishes) have been made over the past 250 years. It's getting to be a bit like the death cults predicting the imminent end of the world. Change will remain slow and difficult since the majority are still superstitious and the cults use abusive and obnoxious behavior to cower victims from an early age. Hell, just look at how they bitch and moan about advertisements on buses. This is why religions desire to control government - it gives them free rein to abuse all citizens and we can see this throughout every single theocracy in history with absolutely no exceptions - from ancient Egypt to many of the contemporary nations. That is why the founders of the USA tried to keep religion out of politics.
Posted by: WowbaggerOM
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December 5, 2009 4:36 PM
It's just another - in this case, particularly disturbing example - of how people choose lie to themselves about their god rather than open their eyes and realise that, even if he did exist, he'd be a miserable, monstrous hateful piece of shit who revels in their suffering.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip | December 5, 2009 4:55 PM
The point of the parable (I refuse to call it a "joke" since it has no humor value) is that God isn't going to answer your prayers with flashy displays, so don't look for them. Of course, most Christians I hear about tend the other direction anyway, and everything, no matter how mundane, is a message or answer from God. Found a $5 bill on the sidewalk while you were hungry? Must be from God! Got a vaguely Jesusy-looking stain on your shower curtain? God has blessed your home! Etcetera.
Posted by: David B
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December 5, 2009 4:56 PM
re a part of post 27
'Why, when all of your kids have learning disabilities and developmental problems, you would choose to not work for a living, and instead live on the handouts of the gullible?'
It might be that if all the kids have learning disabilities and developmental problems, then those problems have been inherited from someone with learning disabilities and developmental problems.
Then again, I'm reminded of the old story of the village idiot that people would tease by offering him a penny (a big copper coin, for the American readership) and a sixpence (a small silver one, which, again for the American readership, is worth six times as much as a penny), and laugh at him when he took the penny every time.
Then, finally, someone explained to him that a sixpence was worth more than a penny, and he should take the sixpence next time.
To which he responded 'if I did that, they would stop doing it'
David B
Posted by: Carlie | December 5, 2009 5:03 PM
Of course, most Christians I hear about tend the other direction anyway, and everything, no matter how mundane, is a message or answer from God.
That was one of the things that made my bile rise even when I was a hard-core fundamentalist. I'd hear "God gave me a good parking space today!" and think "Too bad that took his time away from saving that kid in Ethiopia that just died of starvation, then".
Posted by: stogoe | December 5, 2009 5:04 PM
Come on, a bear can't be the pope. Popes have to be 75-year-old nominally celibate white men who hide pedophiles from the authorities.Posted by: Recall | December 5, 2009 5:07 PM
Where was her church in all this?
Posted by: WowbaggerOM
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December 5, 2009 5:11 PM
Probably counting its money.
Posted by: deang | December 5, 2009 5:37 PM
In the church I was raised in, the statement "God will provide" was usually followed by the falsifying caveat, "But God helps those who help themselves." Somehow, people there had no problem with the cognitive dissonance caused by the two statements; most remain very right-wing believers to this day, the kind who blame the poor for their poverty and all that.
Posted by: Rick R | December 5, 2009 5:42 PM
Naked Bunny @80- "Got a vaguely Jesusy-looking stain on your shower curtain? God has blessed your home!"
This is what I never understood about religion: since in experiential terms, being "blessed" is exactly the same as not being "blessed", what's the big deal?
And the Jesusy-looking stain on the shower curtain? They make cleansers for that.
Posted by: Occam's Aftershave | December 5, 2009 5:51 PM
That reminds me of a joke. A woman along with her infant son were stranded up on their rooftop during hurricane Katrina, and the floodwaters were rising.
A rescuer in a boat tried to coax them to come down but the woman, being a devout theist, insisted that they save someone else because God would rescue her and her son. She did the exact same thing when the next boat rescue was attempted.
A helicopter tried to rescue them also, but again she waived them off, convinced that God would save them. Soon after, the floodwaters overtopped the house and both the mother and son were quickly drowned.
When she found herself before God being judged, she was perplexed. "I was pious and good. Why didn't you save me and my son?"
God look up from his Nintendo and said "Save you? Lady, I sent an enormous storm and a flood to KILL you. If I were trying to protect you or the boy, why in Hell would you find yourselves stuck on a roof?"
Posted by: Oh yes | December 5, 2009 6:37 PM
As has already been said and must be repeated;
God did provide for that woman's children. When the police marched into her home and apprehended her kids, it was Gods loving hand directing it all.
* shaking head slowly *
Posted by: JMH | December 5, 2009 6:48 PM
My grandfather, the Pentacostal Precher did the same thing back in the 1930's, that is, just sat back and wated for god to provide after he lost his church. My grandmother left him in Wisconsin, removing herself, along with my father and aunt, to a working life as a single mother in Omaha.
Posted by: Traffic Demon | December 5, 2009 7:11 PM
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a man religion and he will starve to death praying for a fish.
Posted by: Richard Healy
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December 5, 2009 7:23 PM
I found this part of the article confusing. If you can't charge her with child abuse because starving the victim wasn't a child at the time, do her for assault or attempted murder.
Posted by: Loren Petrich
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December 5, 2009 7:44 PM
As to that joke about the rescue-refusing gentleman, I would have said in response to God:
"Did you want me to act like an ATHEIST???"
Posted by: Stanton
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December 5, 2009 7:58 PM
One time, my friend and I were stopping at a lunch "kiosk" with a microwave and vending machine. My friend saw an unattended to 20 dollar bill lying by the filthy microwave, but when I asked him why he wouldn't pick it up, he told me, "I believe in Karma." I then seized the 20 dollar bill, telling him, "Well, if I contract leprosy later, then I'll know I wasn't meant to take it."Posted by: Cuttlefish, OM | December 5, 2009 8:19 PM
Maybe it's the story,
Or maybe it's my mood;
I read the jokes, but all I think:
11 days without food.
Posted by: wrpd | December 5, 2009 8:21 PM
There is now a website, nolongerquivering.com, set up by an ex-quiverer. Scary stuff.
The fundies still have their undies in a bunch because Hannah Overton, who fed her foster son a lethal dose of hot sauce, lost her appeal.
Carmen Miranda died on my fifth birthday. I haven't been the same since.
Posted by: Valkyrie | December 5, 2009 10:59 PM
Gah. I'm from there. I think I might know these people.
You know, I didn't think that sort of thing would happen in my hometown. But, as Duncan pointed out, if it was going to happen in New Jersey, it was going to happen in Sussex County.
Posted by: Andyman | December 5, 2009 11:23 PM
My sisters had a bible-in-schools teacher (in NZ a xtian person comes and lectures us on christianity for an hour until high school (bout Grade 8 in the US), it ain't compulsory though) that said people get sick, injured or lose one or more of their senses because they "sinned" in front of a Year 8 class (Grade 7) that contained my blind sister and a young girl with possibly terminal cancer. Also I must've done some horrible sinning when younger cos now I'm autistic. My family and my relatives were besides themselves with anger, with my aunty suggesting we lay a complaint.
Posted by: katie | December 6, 2009 12:34 AM
Ok...so maybe I'm missing something, but if the daughter is now 21, and this happened in 2006, the oldest daughter would have been 18 at the time.
Let me tell you, if I was 18 and hadn't eaten in 11 days, I would be at the police station. Or a friend's house. Or at a burger joint, flipping burgers.
That's not to say the mom isn't crazy, nor that she isn't clearly engaging in child abuse.
When I was 17, I left my parent's house and got a job to support myself because I was being abused. I finished my high school diploma, and am now a grad student. I know it sucks, but this isn't exactly a case where entirely helpless children were being abused.
Posted by: rg | December 6, 2009 2:19 AM
God did provide.. he made the police find out what was going on and fix the situation.
This is how all of my religious family members would "rationalize" this.
Posted by: John Morales | December 6, 2009 2:24 AM
rg @100, see #1.
Posted by: harv
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December 6, 2009 3:05 AM
More than somewhat off-topic, but Tim Tebow named his right eye John and his left eye 3:16 for tonights big game. Looks like a new trend--eye black Bible verses. Don't know what the purpose was in wearing that particular eye black, but if it was to ensure victory on the football field, it was about as effective as "God will provide". Wish I could just watch a football game without the messaging.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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December 6, 2009 3:08 AM
And abused wifes who stay with their husbands are also not technically "helpless", but they still stay. This is what mental abuse can do to you.Posted by: Timothy | December 6, 2009 3:15 AM
They just didn't wait long enough. If only she'd starved them for a month straight he would have delivered a pizza and an order of bread sticks.
Posted by: The MCP | December 6, 2009 4:13 AM
I'm with Valkyrie: I grew up there, and northeast NJ is ripe with fundamentalists. We used to have neighbors that were so far to the right of the right wing that they quit the Assembly Of God church on the grounds that it "isn't conservative enough" and started their own church in the basement. (Which we ended up calling the police about because they decided they were so much holier than we that they could park their cars all over our lawn and wake us up early every sunday morning by blaring crappy live "christian rock" music.)
I knew an awful lot of AOG wingnuts in the area, too.
Yeah. Having grown up there, this story doesn't surprise me in the least other than to wonder when the county officials grew a pair of balls to actually help an abused child.
Posted by: SteveM | December 6, 2009 4:36 AM
Reminds me of a joke... No, actually a line in one of the Sinbad movies, possibly The Golden Voyage of Sinbad. Sinbad several times says "Trust in Allah... but always tie your camel."
[There's not much to be said about the OP that hasn't already been said, thus the continuing tangent]
Posted by: Knockgoats | December 6, 2009 4:48 AM
My friend saw an unattended to 20 dollar bill lying by the filthy microwave, but when I asked him why he wouldn't pick it up, he told me, "I believe in Karma." I then seized the 20 dollar bill, telling him, "Well, if I contract leprosy later, then I'll know I wasn't meant to take it." - Stanton
Of course, a neoclassical economist would have reasoned that the bill must be a mirage: if it had been real, someone would have picked it up already!
Posted by: DLC
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December 6, 2009 6:29 AM
As someone who's gone for days without food, I agree with Cuttlefish. eleven days without food
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
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December 6, 2009 6:56 AM
No, silly person. A neoclassical economist would maintain that the bill had not been mediated through a hypothesized maximization of income-constrained utility until after it had been picked up.
Considering that neoclassical economics is generally concerned with macroeconomics and the act of picking up one bill is obviously microeconomics (if not nanoeconomics), then attempting to put a neoclassical slant on the economic ramifications of picking up the bill is perhaps strained. Unless you are trying, like Keynes, to transcend the separation of real and monetary markets, in which case picking up or not picking up the bill represents a liquidity decision which, by its very nature, must be uncertain.
(Sorry, folks, but I couldn't resist the temptation to sling jargon around.)
Posted by: jen | December 6, 2009 8:46 AM
It sounded, from the article, like she asked the church for a place to live but never bothered to ask them for food.
As for the "get out - GET OUT NOW" bit, back when I was in college, I was attending this tiny little country church. When the group had bought this old church several years before, it had come with a house on the same plot of land, and they had lent it out to various "worthy" families (mostly families with someone attending the local college run by the same denomination). The family would agree to be the church caretakers in place of rent.
Well, this one family (mom, dad, and a couple of very young kids) was quite a bit sloppier than most. And dad apparently did most of the cleaning, etc., at the church. And then he dropped out of the college and went a couple of states away to make some quick money, which turned out to be more "quick" than "big".
So here is this church that isn't getting cleaned, because mom just doesn't bother. And the original scheduled move-out date for this family (which kinda went by school year) has come and gone with no indication that mom plans to move out. And they've got another family with a special-needs child that *really* needs a place to live.
The church eventually literally scheduled a "come help mom move out and clean the house" day, and a good portion of the church came out and packed the house up on her. Mom didn't lift a hand to help, but also didn't lift a hand to protest that they didn't have the right to come into her home, either. (Then again, this was a woman who had clothing piled up on the floor inside multiple closets to about waist-high. And it didn't look like too much of that clothing belonged to her kids....)
Posted by: Kemanorel | December 6, 2009 12:17 PM
When I read comments like this it just makes me smile that my molecular biology teacher explicitly said that if you don't believe in evolution, then you won't understand anything in the class.
Posted by: michael mastropaolo | December 6, 2009 2:05 PM
So I must say that this is an old, beat up topic though you are all so gung-ho!! Wow. Again, I am not in disbelief of the simplistic, negative views presented in these comments. If a misguided person believes God will just provide, they are mistaken. Everyone knows (except perhaps #108DLC, #91Traffic Demon, #97Lauren Petrich,etc.), God helps those who help themselves (thank you Katie).
So #2MarkH, your proof of no God? I have mine of His existence. Wanna see? By the way, #41Artconserv, your aunt didn't marry a Catholic, but someone who claimed to be, sort of like Barry Sotoro Barack Hussein Mama Obama claims to be President and a natural born citizen. It just needed to be looked into more. And, of course, Torrie, your vast, unsubstansiated generalizations are not helpful. GOD BLESS you ALL and Merry Christmas!!!!!!!
Posted by: michael mastropaolo | December 6, 2009 2:20 PM
BTW, #111Kemanorel, isn't it funny how lacking modern 'science' is of valid, objective, reliable and calibrated evidence for evolution? Isn't that just about where you ask yourself 'is this just a superstition, a religion of it's own' that began 2500 yrs ago with Anaximander (age of Gea)? IT IS!!! So now that you asked yourself, why does this Darwin dude get all the fiction writing credit? At least you understand that evolution is a requirement in school these days. The question is, why doesn't any biology (molecular included) or physics line up with evolution? You may want to start researching!!!
(unless you're happy with made up illustrations and scientific names for 'descendent of humans')
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip | December 6, 2009 2:40 PM
Yes.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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December 6, 2009 2:51 PM
Tell that to the million or so scientific papers that back evolution, both directly and indirectly. Your statement just announces to the world "I am an idjit".It all lines up. What part of the peer reviewed scientific literature aren't you familiar with? Most be all of it.Yep, and if it isn't good hard physical evidence, evidence that will pass muster with scientists, magicians, and professional debunkers as being of divine, and not natural, origin, you are just a deluded fool. And keep in mind anything that science can explain is natural. An eternally burning bush or equivalent is a good place to start.Posted by: 386sx | December 6, 2009 2:58 PM
I have mine of His existence. Wanna see?
Something tells me it won't quite live up to all the hype you're giving it.
Posted by: We Are The 801 | December 6, 2009 3:35 PM
Even the "pagan" Greeks had better sense... I'm thinking of the Aesop fable about the man who got his mule & cart stuck in the mud.
What is bizarre about people like this is they think this is "humility" when it is nothing less than narcissistic arrogance.
Posted by: raven | December 6, 2009 5:20 PM
This is the fallacy, No True Scotsman. If only good people are xians, there aren't any. Especially you.
BTW, did you notice that US xianity is dying? In a few decades it will just be you and a few other grade school dropout nutcases down at the homeless shelter. Uplifted dogs and intelligent computers will laugh at you.
Posted by: Carlie | December 6, 2009 5:36 PM
Except the Bible says several times that God will provide, yet never does the Bible say God helps those who helps themselves. I guess that means you're admitting the Bible is a load of crap?
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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December 6, 2009 5:44 PM
Hmm...MM seems to have run off (4+ hours since his last post). Something about having to provide physical evidence that godbots find intimidating...
Posted by: Rey Fox | December 6, 2009 5:55 PM
"but someone who claimed to be, sort of like Barry Sotoro Barack Hussein Mama Obama claims to be President and a natural born citizen."
Please get back on your meds.
Posted by: Rey Fox | December 6, 2009 5:59 PM
Tebow has done the bible verse on his eye black stickers numerous times. Seeing him in tears at the end of the SEC Championship yesterday was a real treat for me.
Posted by: We Are The 801 | December 6, 2009 6:00 PM
"If a misguided person believes God will just provide, they are mistaken. Everyone knows (except perhaps #108DLC, #91Traffic Demon, #97Lauren Petrich,etc.), God helps those who help themselves (thank you Katie)."
Actually, the quote runs "The GODS help those who help themselves" and that's Aesop, not the Bible. Who knew that there were still worshippers of Apollo in this day and age?
Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak | December 6, 2009 7:43 PM
Are you blind? Even 6th grade text books shows evidence that it does align. Good grief man, if you're gonna criticise science at least read books other than the Bible.
Posted by: Owlmirror | December 6, 2009 9:32 PM
Nit: In the Æsop story, it was Hercules.
Posted by: SDS | December 6, 2009 11:55 PM
god does not exist to just simply wait hand and knees on that needs of people. That woman was stupid and blindly faithful trying to twist faith into something it isn't: A miracle machine. Faith exists to provide strength of mind so individuals may persevere through what may sometimes seem a cold and heartless world. Well it depends on an individual's faith/worship as well, but generally all faiths have the same goal, culminating in the spiritual advancement of the people of the world.
Posted by: Shell | December 7, 2009 2:06 AM
SDS:
Nutritional advancement would be more to the point.
Strength of mind doesn't seem to be a monopoly of the religious; those without faith also preservere.
What is this spiritual advancement? Of what does it consist?
Posted by: JC | December 7, 2009 4:17 AM
What that woman did is what Scripture calls "tempting the Lord."
God provides all the time. The Bible is very clear that God provides *if* you do your part ("he meets you half way," as the grandfather says in _Where the Red Fern Grows_). It is also clear that He only provides if you do your part both for work and for Him.
My family live on providence: we work hard, and we try not to overspend, but we also don't save, and we always have just enough. If I worry about things coming up short, I say a prayer, and a check comes sooner than expected, or I'm offered another course to teach, or something.
Posted by: John Morales | December 7, 2009 4:30 AM
JC, are you aware of confirmation bias?
Posted by: necronomikron | December 7, 2009 5:20 AM
JC: The bible is very clear on prayer. Not once does it mention compromise, limits or qualifications. It is very clear that prayer is a 'you pray, you get it' kind of thing, no qualifications, limits or compromise. If you want it, you got it.
Such things as 'god helps those who help themselves', etc. are dogma attached to the religion that have absolutely nothing to do with the bible.
Posted by: Yubal
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December 7, 2009 5:36 AM
Recall # 84
The article says she didn't ask anybody for help, no family, no church no welfare, nothing. Didn't even bother to get a job, beg or steal.
Typical for evangelical Christians. Sitting apathetic in the corner, praying and waiting for something to happen that never comes while their life is passing by.
Posted by: Esser-Z | December 8, 2009 9:23 AM
God made her a cheezburger, but he eated it.
Posted by: Stimbo
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December 12, 2009 8:40 PM
God provides all the time. The Bible is very clear that God provides *if* you do your part ("he meets you half way," as the grandfather says in _Where the Red Fern Grows_). It is also clear that He only provides if you do your part both for work and for Him.
God made me a cheeseburger last week. It was amazing; a True iracle™.
All I had to do was meet him halfway by providing the meat, cheese, onion, relish, gherkin, mustard, ketchup, and burger buns. Then, after frying the meat, slicing the onion and the gherkin, toasting the buns, and generally buildng the sandwich, I looked at the result - and Hallelujah! God had provided me with a delicious and filling snack!
As if by magic..!
[P.S. - a sign displayed in my local newsagent: "God help those who help themselves."]
Posted by: Stimbo
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December 12, 2009 8:46 PM
That should have been a "True Miracle™," as any fule kno.
My keyboard made me look like a creationist, there...