Pharyngula

They don’t really care about the children

About 20 clergy, representing the very best of Christian theology, of course, and various Republicans gathered in Virginia to protest the existence of Planned Parenthood—they want all state funding, about $35,000 a year, stopped. They claim that Planned Parenthood is an evil organization because it provides abortions (which I consider a necessary and brave service, given the violence of anti-choice lunatics) and contraceptives, ignoring the fact that they also provide reproductive health care for women. In a just and rational world, Planned Parenthood would be regarded as a heroic organization, helping to make this a better world.

Not in the minds of these pious zealots, though. Bob Marshall voluntarily exposed the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of the protest with a few choice words.

The number of children who are born subsequent to a first abortion with handicaps has increased dramatically. Why? Because when you abort the first born of any, nature takes its vengeance on the subsequent children.

In the Old Testament, the first born of every being, animal and man, was dedicated to the Lord. There’s a special punishment Christians would suggest.

He’s lying. There is no evidence that abortion imposes long term risk of any kind on women or their subsequent children. He’s confusing what he wishes were true with what is actually true.

I despise his imaginary, wrathful, poisonous, child-torturing god. This is what these kinds of Christians hold as just: that an omnipotent monster would wreak vengeance on children for a mother’s actions, and furthermore, that a handicapped child is a punishment for the parents. That’s simply twisted. A suffering child is loved no less by a sane parent, and our hearts are wrenched by the troubles of even our healthiest children. Think about what this dumb wretch has said to every child who is less than perfect in this world (which includes all of us, of course): we are his god’s instrument of torture for our parents. God is the psychopathic bastard who forces failings on us to make our mothers suffer a little more.

God must really hate Bob Marshall’s mother, then, to inflict such a demented fuckwit on her.

You can write to Bob and let him know what you think of his deity. And Virginians — I don’t care whether you’re a Republican or a Democrat, conservative or liberal, but could you please stop putting evil, narrow-minded little pissants like Bob Marshall in positions of power? Let him be an affliction to his own family, and leave the rest of us alone.


A few additions:

Angie the anti-theist is getting an abortion — good for her for being bold enough to put a human face to the issue.

And here’s a weird twist. For all their protestations about equality, somehow they think blacks are a different species?

i-e97e51cd07f9122f78f7d12a299d202c-black_species.jpeg

Comments

  1. #1 ckitching
    February 22, 2010

    He’s lying. There is no evidence that abortion imposes long term risk of any kind on women or their subsequent children.

    There’s plenty of evidence that illegal abortions performed with non-surgical equipment can cause those kinds of problems (and worse). I’m sure he’d trot out of some evidence from those dark ages to ‘prove’ his point if challenged. It’s always either flat out lies and deception or cherry picked data with these folks.

    The worst part is that I don’t know if most of them even know they’re lying anymore.

  2. #2 artconserv
    February 22, 2010

    I didn’t vote for the idiot. Can’t help that there are a lot of conservatives in this state. :-/

  3. #3 Capital Dan
    February 22, 2010

    So, how many abortions did Sarah Palin have then?

  4. #4 Gyeong Hwa Pak, Pikachu para lang sa iyo.
    February 22, 2010

    Have they ever considered that if they promoted the use of contraceptive, it would dramatically reduce the occurance of abortions? Or does reason evade them?

  5. #5 Sir Eccles
    February 22, 2010

    I’ll stop funding PP when the Catholic church stops buggering young boys.

  6. #6 SaraJ
    February 22, 2010

    I can not even tell you how furious this makes me. I think I saw red for a minute when I first read this. What a fucking asshole. I’m not even going to apologize for my language, because this just really pisses me off.

  7. #7 KKBundy
    February 22, 2010

    “The number of children who are born subsequent to a first abortion with handicaps has increased dramatically. Why? Because when you abort the first born of any, nature takes its vengeance on the subsequent children.”

    Statements like these reveal, not only the evil of the speaker, but the sheer atrocity of their holy book. PZ hit it right on the head here. What a monstrosity! But if you read their Bible, this happened all the time. God was always punishing the children for the sins of the parent. These pastors are just following a long tradition of hatred and fear set out in the bronze age.

    Next time someone says “Just read your Bible,” do it. You will find the Lord Genocide to be an unpleasant bastard indeed!

    Blessed Atheist Bible Study @ http://blessedatheist.com/

  8. #8 raven
    February 22, 2010

    They don’t really care about the children

    Oh yes they do.

    They are coming for the chidlren. Your children. They would love to brainwash them into their malevolent cults. That is why they keep trying to sneak their wingnut beliefs into the public schools. The boogeyman exists in the churches.

    Just say no. Besides, fundie xianity is like a collander. No matter what they try, some of their kids manage to escape through the holes. Usually the best and brightest.

  9. #9 Alexander the Good Enough
    February 22, 2010

    Honestly! The gut-wrenching ignorance and determined pathology of these Planned Parenthood protesters!

    Look, not only does Planned Parenthood give good and needed services to the community, they are, in a world where the human population is approaching 7 billion, without doubt the *greenest* organization of them all. Without population control, or planned parenthood at the very least, every cause is a lost cause. They are well remembered in my will.

  10. #10 RayM
    February 22, 2010

    See here for a blog entry containing some of this person’s other memorable quotes.

  11. #11 CanonicalKoi
    February 22, 2010

    In the Old Testament, the first born of every being, animal and man, was dedicated to the Lord. There’s a special punishment Christians would suggest.

    Nice to see Marshall’s using the “first-fruit” argument. Yes, so-called first-fruit (first children, first crops, first offspring of an animal, first, well *fruit* of a tree) were “dedicated” to god, but in an oh-so-special way. They were intended as an offering. Yeah, there’s a role model we should all follow. So, I guess, abortion is bad, but retro-active abortion, making sure to sprinkle the blood around the altar in juuuuuust the right way, is okay?

  12. #12 MAJeff, OM
    February 22, 2010

    A long time ago, Susie Bright wrote an article about the theofuckwits in which she wrote, “The children is us.” That’s exactly it–they don’t give a fuck about kids, but want to control all of us as through we were Trig Palin.

  13. #13 NovaC
    February 22, 2010

    If Planned Parenthood were to be allowed to operate correctly there would(hopefully) be fewer abortions due to fewer pregnancies. @Capital Dan #3 Truer words could not be typed!
    Contraception, sex education and regular check ups for those that cannot afford it otherwise. I fail to see the downside of Planned Parenthood.
    I’m sure the idiot’s argument against it is abstinence and we see how well that has worked out(including Palin’s own daughter).
    As far as P.P. being a racist organization..couldn’t the same be said for the fundies? Keep them having multiple children so that the cycle of poverty remains unbroken.
    Yeah…That’ll keep them right where the fundies want them. Unaware that options are out there.
    Sickening.
    And I still refuse to believe that the women that DO opt for abortion don’t have their own emotional pain afterwards…”what ifs” can be a bitch.

  14. #14 MAJeff, OM
    February 22, 2010

    n a just and rational world, Planned Parenthood would be regarded as a heroic organization, helping to make this a better world.

    Amen to that, brother!

  15. #15 RayM
    February 22, 2010

    @10: Well, that worked well. I’ll get the hang of this stuff one of these days. In the meantime: http://www.bluevirginia.us/2009/10/cooch-huddles-with-his-political.html

  16. #16 MAJeff, OM
    February 22, 2010

    As far as P.P. being a racist organization..couldn’t the same be said for the fundies?

    actually, it would be more apt with regard to the theofucks. After all, much of their leadership came out of the anti-civil rights movement, and today’s political right is descended from the Souther Strategy and the concentration of racists into the more conservative wing (and today only wing) of the GOP.

  17. #17 Peter H
    February 22, 2010

    It’s people like Marshall who give stupid a bad name.

  18. #18 lose_the_woo
    February 22, 2010

    There’s a special punishment Christians would suggest.

    I no longer wonder why their mentality reminds me of a maladjusted prepubescent youth who likes to torture helpless animals.

  19. #19 NovaC
    February 22, 2010

    @MAJeff #16
    Thank you for clarifying that and stating it so much better than I could have. :)
    *note to self….Do NOT let fingers out pace brain on posts!*

  20. #20 clockkingfl
    February 22, 2010

    He’s already posted an apology on his site: http://delegatebob.com/category/news

    However, I’m not convinced the apology is sincere. I get the impression from his quote that he said what he really thinks. If that’s true, what he regrets is saying it out loud in public.

  21. #21 raven
    February 22, 2010

    The bible thinks children are useful. As human sacrifices to Yahweh.

    II Samuel 21The Gibeonites Avenged

    1 During the reign of David, there was a famine for three successive years; so David sought the face of the LORD. The LORD said, “It is on account of Saul and his blood-stained house; it is because he put the Gibeonites to death.”

    8 But the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Aiah’s daughter Rizpah, whom she had borne to Saul, together with the five sons of Saul’s daughter Merab, [a] whom she had borne to Adriel son of Barzillai the Meholathite. 9 He handed them over to the Gibeonites, who killed and exposed them on a hill before the LORD. All seven of them fell together; they were put to death during the first days of the harvest, just as the barley harvest was beginning.

  22. #22 Akiko
    February 22, 2010

    I know women who received most of their pap smears, care for infections and pre-natal care at Planned Parenthood. The issue with these Fucktards are they hate women and the control we have over our bodies. They want us trussed up and subservient to the men who own us. It is all about them and their teensy dicks. They hide behind their “god” thinking it will inflate their importance therefore inflate their status with women who might be willing to overlook the teensy dick situation if “god” tells them so.

  23. #23 'Tis Himself, OM
    February 22, 2010

    People like Marshall don’t care about children. They care about controlling other people. People against both abortion and contraception just want to punish others for having teh secks.

  24. #24 Mike Wagner
    February 22, 2010

    Thanks to YouTube and the development of RU486 you can see an abortion happen live on the internet.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59Ud3g2ymOM

    The availability of prescription medicines to women who need this is a boon for those who might have to otherwise navigate through protesters, some of whom have the potential for violence.

    I certainly wouldn’t deny them the option of preventing the development of a cluster of non-sentient cells into a person. There are already enough unwanted children out there in need of homes.

  25. #25 Menyambal
    February 22, 2010

    I am one of the children who are punished for the sins of their fathers. No, I am not physically handicapped–aside from glasses and a bulging waistline–I am simply forbidden the congregation of the lord. I cannot be a Christian–I am going to go to hell for someone else’s sin.

    One of my male ancestors was not married to the corresponding female ancestor, and for seven generations their descendants are damned. Before ever I was born, when God made my soul with his own loving hands, He knew I was going to fry for eternal ever.

    When I mentioned that once before, on this blog, some Christian jerk told me to just ask for forgiveness. How can I do that? I wasn’t the one who sinned.

    But that is Christianity for you. Everyone is damned for the sins of Adam and Eve …

    I can’t write about this any more. I get too angry when I think about how gut-crawlingly evil Christianity is, and how mind-numbingly stupid Christians can be.

  26. #26 Biddy
    February 22, 2010

    I agree with Akiko #22. Every time I read the arguments of those who are vehemently pro-life I can?t help but think that their real position is anti-woman. They take the notion of ?love your fellow man? too seriously. The other 50% of the population isn?t worth the rib they came from.

  27. #27 Benjamin Geiger
    February 22, 2010

    Here’s the thing: they don’t give two shits about kids.

    What they care about is making sure ‘sinners’ get punished. And by ‘sinners’, I mean uppity women. After all, sex must always be for reproduction, and the woman must never enjoy it. Ever. Every time a woman has sex, she must face the possibility of pregnancy, and anything that makes pregnancy less likely is evil.

    That’s why they oppose abortion, and why contraception in lieu of abortion isn’t an option. It has nothing to do with the potential child, and everything to do with the woman ‘getting off [pun intended] scot-free’.

  28. #28 Benjamin Geiger
    February 22, 2010

    Oh, and what Akiko said.

  29. #29 Kome
    February 22, 2010

    The best arguments in favor of keeping abortions legal are the people of the anti-choice crowd. Those people are abortions that needed to have been done.

  30. #30 'Tis Himself, OM
    February 22, 2010

    Menyambal #25

    I wasn’t the one who sinned.
    But that is Christianity for you. Everyone is damned for the sins of Adam and Eve

    This is something I’ve always had a lot of problems with regarding Christianity. 6000 years ago two people sinned* so four thousand years later someone had to die** so I can be forgiven for the 6000 year old sin. As Menyambal says, I wasn’t the one who sinned.

    Plus Adam and Eve’s sin was disobedience. Paul and Augustine, two men with serious sexual hangups, converted the sin to disgust with sex.

    *And were deliberately set up to sin.

    **Only he really didn’t die.

  31. #31 MadScientist
    February 22, 2010

    Isn’t it obvious that it’s god’s will that Bob Marshall be a festering boil on society?

    I have a more sensible request to make of government: tax all religious institutions. Why are religious institutions exempt from taxes which the rest of us pay out?

  32. #32 Menyambal
    February 22, 2010

    Speaking of children… My immediate family includes a horribly-spoiled and unthinkingly-selfish young-teen, only-child girl. Damn, she is so much the typical conservative religious person in attitude, actions and aroma. Her aunt, who she resembles frighteningly, is a fundamentalist Christian bitch.

    The kid, God love her, is an atheist, but she has all the fundamental lazy, whiney, scornful, hateful, unfair and dishonest shit going on, with a veneer of loving kindness when she tries to manipulate people. She really does remind me of every arrogant religious person that I have ever tried to reason with. But she, the little dear, may grow out of it.

    I love her, mind, and I don’t say that just in case her mother reads this. But damn, I twitch every time she reminds me of a religious fundamentalist.

  33. #33 Zernk
    February 22, 2010

    God damn it. Those motherfuckers were right down the street from me pulling that hateful shit. Virginia Republicans are the worst two-faced liars on the planet. Every news item on delegatebob.com is full of orwellian doublespeak. “conveyed the impression that I believe disabled children are a punishment for prior abortions” my pale white ass. When it’s in quotes, that means it’s exactly you said, you lying sack of shit.

    Oh, that fucker makes my stomach hurt.

    I sent him a severe note, free of obscenity (thanks PZ for letting me vent here). Not that it will make any difference to an ass-drip like that.

  34. #34 Marzipan
    February 22, 2010

    Think about what this dumb wretch has said to every child who is less than perfect in this world (which includes all of us, of course): we are his god’s instrument of torture for our parents.

    Sure, he’s dumb, but in this case he has accidentally stumbled upon a grain of truth, since, you know, there are various studies that show that children have a negative effect on marital satisfaction and overall levels of happiness.

    A suffering child is loved no less by a sane parent

    I think in this case it’s you who is confusing what is actually true with what you wish to be true. The National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect found that children with disabilities got physically and sexually abused at around twice the rate of other children, and emotionally neglected three times as often. And the child’s disability is considered one of the risks during assessment in child welfare work.

    It really makes sense; the more stressful something is, the more one is likely to snap, and since children are perfect victims with no ability to defend themselves and virtually no rights, child abuse is the natural outcome. And all these tales of lofty, idealized parental love are bullshit, just like theism.

    Just a little food for thought before you all start breeding with reckless abandon. And if Planned Parenthood stopped helping people spawn with no consideration for their offspring (as opposed to freaking blastocysts which are the only thing anyone cares about in this country) and concentrated on providing abortions and contraception more, then I would consider donating to them.

  35. #35 Alverant
    February 22, 2010

    Captain Dan #3
    I’d love to hear what Palin has to say about this. I would bet money it won’t nearly be as harsh as she was when that guy in the Obama Admin used the word “retard”.

  36. #36 raven
    February 22, 2010

    Hypocrits is right. The abortion rate for fundie kids is higher than the general population.

    It is thought that they might be taking the No Contraceptive advice more seriously than the No Sex one.

    FWIW, their leaders don’t walk their talk. Robertson has 3 kids, Cheney 2, and so on down the line. They have better things to do with their time and money than operate baby factories.

  37. #37 feralboy12
    February 22, 2010

    Everybody here needs to quit sugarcoating everything and say what you really think.
    But seriously…the problem is the bible tells us to be fruitful and multiply…until further notice, I guess.
    I agree with Kilgore Trout. The problems with Christianity can be traced to the slipshod storytelling in their holy book.

  38. #38 Kome
    February 22, 2010

    @Marzipan

    You have to keep in mind, however, that rates of child abuse and neglect by family (biological or adoptive) are very low to begin with. So, while very tragic, a two- to three-fold increase in abuse/neglect for disabled children is still a small percentage of children. Also, PZ said “sane parent.”

  39. #39 Shplane
    February 22, 2010

    As much as I hate religious asshats like this guy, I can’t fully endorse all abortions all the time. My reasoning is pretty simple: This is the only life their is, and to deny that to anyone, even a potential someone, is atrocious.

    It just feels distinctly wrong to cut off a possible life. Not that I’m going to stone anyone for it, or, y’know, be an asshole. But I sure would like living in a world where no woman was put into a situation where she felt she needed an abortion, and where we had the resources to support all children.

    I’m sad now.

  40. #40 Shplane
    February 22, 2010

    *There.

    FUCKING

  41. #41 mrcreosote
    February 22, 2010

    So lets see – my mum suffered a miscarriage, and then my (now) oldest brother gets cerebral palsy. How does that work?

  42. #42 Brownian, OM
    February 22, 2010

    After all, sex must always be for reproduction, and the woman must never enjoy it.

    Alright! Except for the non-reproductive fornicating outside of wedlock, I’m A-OK in these guys’ books.

    “Forewhat? Look, I’m doing the Lord’s work here, so for the last time, the socks and the TV stay on!”

  43. #43 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    #39

    My reasoning is pretty simple: This is the only life their is, and to deny that to anyone, even a potential someone, is atrocious.

    No, your reasoning is simplistic, almost beyond belief. Every time two people decide not to have sex, they’re denying life to a “potential someone.” Every time they use contraception, they’re denying life to a “potential someone.”

    Seriously. Please rethink. You’re mistaking your gut “ick” feelings for a reasonable position. It’s not.

  44. #44 ian.monroe
    February 22, 2010

    Gosh, 35k is really *nothing* already!

  45. #45 Shplane
    February 22, 2010

    #43

    My position is more complicated than that, and honestly I don’t want to go into it all on some fucking blog comments. Suffice to say, the whole thing is a gray area, and it’s hard to draw the line as to where someone’s in the wrong. I put it at the point where, if no one fucks up anything up, and there are no medical complications, a human being will form.

    I can’t very well get angry with someone for “Not having sex” or using contraception. Hell, I honestly can’t say that it’s wrong to have an abortion under circumstances where a child would be born into absolutely horrid conditions, or some other such extenuating circumstances. I can, however, say that someone who has an absolutely wonderful life, plenty of resources with which to support a child, and blah blah blah whatever, is being a bit goddamn selfish by saying “Oh, a child would inconvenience me. I guess I’ll just deny this individual the right to ever exist.”

    I’m not saying there should never be abortions. I’m saying there shouldn’t be frivolous abortions over whatever the fuck someone wants. Because it’s a DICK MOVE.

  46. #46 truebutnotuseful
    February 22, 2010

    Shplane wrote @ #39:

    As much as I hate religious asshats like this guy, I can’t fully endorse all abortions all the time. My reasoning is pretty simple: This is the only life their is, and to deny that to anyone, even a potential someone, is atrocious.

    So you think it’s atrocious, but you partially endorse it some of the time?

    But I sure would like living in a world where no woman was put into a situation where she felt she needed an abortion, and where we had the resources to support all children.

    It’s not just about support systems for the children. Pregnancy is a big deal for a woman’s body, and is something that she should not be forced to go through merely for the ‘crime’ of having sex. And there is no such thing as a 100% effective method of contraception. Until there is, and it is properly employed in 100% of sex acts, there will be a need for abortion.

  47. #47 Brownian, OM
    February 22, 2010

    I’m not saying there should never be abortions. I’m saying there shouldn’t be frivolous abortions over whatever the fuck someone wants. Because it’s a DICK MOVE.

    Yeah. Frivolous aborting fuckers.

    Similarly, in a conversation about giving aid to Haiti I make sure to remind everyone that there is a small proportion of Haitians who are total assholes. I’m not saying that aid should never be given…

  48. #48 Shplane
    February 22, 2010

    @46

    *Sigh* Did I say sex was a crime? No. No I did not. And I find that anyone who does is a giant prick.

    And yes, pregnancy is a big deal for a woman’s body. Never getting to exist in the first place is a bigger one. I can’t find it in myself to feel more sorry for woman who has to go through a few months of minor inconvenience and some (Admittedly excruciating) pain than for an individual who essentially gets told “Fuck off, I don’t feel like giving birth to you, so you don’t get to live.”

  49. #49 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    I can’t very well get angry with someone for “Not having sex” or using contraception. Hell, I honestly can’t say that it’s wrong to have an abortion under circumstances where a child would be born into absolutely horrid conditions, or some other such extenuating circumstances. I can, however, say that someone who has an absolutely wonderful life, plenty of resources with which to support a child, and blah blah blah whatever, is being a bit goddamn selfish by saying “Oh, a child would inconvenience me. I guess I’ll just deny this individual the right to ever exist.”

    That’s not consistent, and it doesn’t make logical sense. You cannot predict, before a person has a life they’ve lived, whether it will be wonderful or crappy. Hence, you can’t use that as a criterion for whether an abortion is right or wrong. Fetuses are not “persons” in the sense Peter Singer talks about – self-aware creatures with interests, relationships, and a capacity to fear their own demise. Do you see how that’s different from ending a real person’s life?

    I’m saying there shouldn’t be frivolous abortions over whatever the fuck someone wants. Because it’s a DICK MOVE.

    Your capital letters are noted.

    What is a “frivolous” abortion? How do you define it? Even if we could all agree on that, what practical, material difference could that make, if the end result is the same?

  50. #50 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    I can’t find it in myself to feel more sorry for woman who has to go through a few months of minor inconvenience and some (Admittedly excruciating) pain than for an individual who essentially gets told “Fuck off, I don’t feel like giving birth to you, so you don’t get to live.”

    Oh, fuck right off. “Minor inconvenience?” Total change in life and responsibilities for at least 20 years in the future? Now you’re characterizing a god damned fetus as an “individual?”

  51. #51 Hypatia's Girl
    February 22, 2010

    Firstly Shplane,
    one ought to be able to recognize the moral difference between a woman and a blastocyst. I also recommend that you read Judith Jarvis Thomson’s excellent article “A Defense of Abortion”
    http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm (Apologies for the lack of html-fu)

    The focus on the potential life of the blastocyst denies the agency and moral consideration due to the woman. It’s simply a counterfactual that cannot be answered.

    One ought also to ask oneself why a woman might have an abortion, for the most part they are fairly invasive medical procedures, and particularly in the US a decision that is weighed, irrespective of the woman’s own thoughts, with a particular baggage.

    The reasons that women have abortions tend not to include the frivolous, it is insulting to frame your opposition that way, in light of the misogynist history of treating women as though they cannot be trusted to make decisions for themselves.

    I understand that you said that you didn’t want to interfere, but calling something you have obviously not bothered to take the slightest moment to actually critically think about a DICK MOVE insults all women and the men who have sex with women.

    (and incidentally, I’m not Hypatia’s Daughter, we’re just two people with awesome nyms.)

  52. #52 Brownian, OM
    February 22, 2010

    What is a “frivolous” abortion? How do you define it? Even if we could all agree on that, what practical, material difference could that make, if the end result is the same?

    It’s one for the sole purpose of saving the whiny, lazy woman from ‘a few months of minor inconvenience’, apparently.

    I’m going to leave Shplane in the hands of the rest of you. I’ve got a poker game to head to and I can tell when a rookie is drawing dead and doesn’t realise it.

  53. #53 Bribase
    February 22, 2010

    I think we should all take thirty seconds just to put ourselves in Bob’s shoes here, to really try to believe that the only true author of morality has come up with this as the only just punishment for an infraction in his all seeing eyes.

    By five seconds you realise that a five year old knows better than this. It still amazes me that fundies still think this way and that we all should too. They’ve simply never had to consider ethics in any practical way, and as a result this is the best they can come up with.

    It is incredible for them to even think they are taking an ethical stand on anything with reasoning like this.

    B

  54. #54 Sisyphus
    February 22, 2010

    So my being diabetic is gods way of punishing my mother because he performed 6 abortions on her before I was born?

    0_o

  55. #55 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    I’ve got a poker game to head to and I can tell when a rookie is drawing dead and doesn’t realise it.

    Damn it, Brownian, just like a man to leave when the going gets tough (lol). And before the Gorgeous Ladies of Pharyngula (GLOP) show up to give Shplane the smack-down he deserves.

  56. #56 Nick
    February 22, 2010

    Given that a miscarriage is effectively a natural abortion, isn’t God the biggest abortionist?

  57. #57 Carlie
    February 22, 2010

    . I can’t find it in myself to feel more sorry for woman who has to go through a few months of minor inconvenience

    *DING*DING*DING*ASSHOLE ALERT*DING*DING*DING*

  58. #58 AnneH
    February 22, 2010

    Shplane,
    I suspect that most women who use Planned Parenthood for reproductive health care are poorer women, and are therefore unlikely to meet your conditions for ‘frivolous abortions’.

    I just did a bit of cursory research for the reasons women opt for an abortion, and very little of it seems frivolous to me.

    The top 3 reasons are:
    * negative impact on the mother’s life (read: ruining her life – having a baby would be disastrous)
    * financial instability
    * relationship problems /unwillingness to be a single mother

    http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionReasons.htm

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/psrh/full/3711005.pdf

  59. #59 Shplane
    February 22, 2010

    (I have no idea how to make quotes on here, so yeah. I imagine you’re bright enough to figure out what I’m responding to. You are reading Pharyngula, after all.)

    So an individual can’t look at their life and see if it is good for supporting children? It’s entirely impossible to say “Oh, I’m horrendously rich and a wonderful person who loves everyone, any child I have would most likely have a wonderful life” or “Holy shit man, I’m a complete asshole and live in a cardboard box, if I had a kid that kid would have an absolutely horrible life”. People can’t make predictions based on past experience and current situations?

    I see how it’s different. I do not see how it’s better. They result in the same thing: A person is denied life. Whether they had begun to use said life yet or not is irrelevant.

    I don’t see how it’s that hard to define. A frivolous abortion would have no purpose beyond “Oh well, I just don’t feel like having a kid. And my personal convenience is more important than someone else living.”

    The end result would not be the same. In a warranted abortion, one that actually has a valid reason (I freely admit that I can’t define what is and is not a valid reason. That’s not exactly a decision I can just make on my own.) a negative consequence that outweighs a potential human life is avoided. In a frivolous one, there is no purpose to it. Nothing “Bad” would happen if the child was born, or at least nothing that outweighs a person getting to exist.

  60. #60 skylyre
    February 22, 2010

    I need to throw up. And I don’t think it’s from my stomach flu, which is a damn sunny day picnic with puppies and daisies compared to this putrid, fucking slime vessel asshole.

    Also Capital Dan, I’m reminded of this joke.

  61. #61 Leah
    February 22, 2010

    Re: #24, Angie the Anti-theist’s live medical abortion on YouTube:

    Wow. This is all sorts of courageous and awesome. Let’s make this viral.

    PZ, she deserves a mention, IMO.

    1. Atheist chick blogs about/posts video of her abortion.
    2. Atheist chick proves abortion is not some medieval process that destroys women’s souls, but is safe and normal.
    3. ???
    4. Profit!

  62. #62 Hypatia's Girl
    February 22, 2010

    Also claiming that “pregnancy is a bigger deal for women” or what have you is sort of belittling the the fact that a woman with children (or indeed a woman who might have the poor decision-making skills to be of childbearing age) facing a significant reduction in her overall economic stability.

  63. #63 Suck Poppet
    February 22, 2010

    ‘Tis Himself, OM # 30:

    This is something I’ve always had a lot of problems with regarding Christianity. 6000 years ago two people sinned* so four thousand years later someone had to die**

    **Only he really didn’t die.

    Oh yes he did. If he existed, he died alright. Evryone does, no exceptions allowed.

    Only he rose from the dead*

    * errrrm, nope, that just makes aven less sense. Nobody does, no exceptions allowed.

  64. #64 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    A person is denied life. Whether they had begun to use said life yet or not is irrelevant.

    Fetuses are not “persons.” This really is an important distinction, and you really need to think about it. Being born, forming attachments, experiencing the world is very much relevant – it’s what makes one a “person” with interests that deserve deference. Seriously, please read some of philosopher Peter Singer’s work for a good definition of what constitutes personhood, and why.

    A frivolous abortion would have no purpose beyond “Oh well, I just don’t feel like having a kid. And my personal convenience is more important than someone else living.”

    First of all, you’re dishonestly degrading the difficult choices women make about their lives into a matter of “convenience.” That’s unwarranted and insulting. Second, so what if the only reason a woman wants to abort is that a child is “inconvenient?” So what? Her life and sovereignty are, by any reasonable standard, more important than a blastocyst or a fetus.

  65. #65 MAJeff, OM
    February 22, 2010

    And yes, pregnancy is a big deal for a woman’s body. Never getting to exist in the first place is a bigger one. I can’t find it in myself to feel more sorry for woman who has to go through a few months of minor inconvenience and some (Admittedly excruciating) pain than for an individual who essentially gets told “Fuck off, I don’t feel like giving birth to you, so you don’t get to live.”

    There’s no “someone” involved other than the woman.

    but again…bitches ain’t shit.

  66. #66 Michelle R
    February 22, 2010

    Few months of minor inconvenience =

    1- Mood swings
    2- weird cravings
    3- morning sickness
    4- Becoming huge.
    5- Swollen ankles.
    6- Prenatal care.
    7- Headaches.
    8- Back pain.
    9- Stretching your vagina to extents never imagined before (Unless you’re into some weird S&M). With all that ripping and such… And that hurting… You know where it hurts so much you wanna KILL THAT GUY and scream “YOU DID THIS TO ME!!!!!!”
    10- Oh… POTENTIAL DEATH.
    (Forgotten a few things here.)

    No thanks. It’s all the miracle of life and that kind of shit but I’ll just skip. I never felt the calling. If an accident happens, it’s not gonna grow in there very long.

  67. #67 'Tis Himself, OM
    February 22, 2010

    the Gorgeous Ladies of Pharyngula (GLOP)

    What an interesting acronym. Are you sure you’re not thinking of “Pharyngula’s Intelligent Sexy Sisters” or “Females Against Religious Thinking”?

  68. #68 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    As always, MaJeff gets right to it with verbal economy I envy.

  69. #69 JBM
    February 22, 2010

    Not that I disagree with the premise espoused – i.e. that abortion is necessary, reasonable and often humane – but it should be mentioned that it appears abortion confers some risk to subsequent children .

    Having an abortion (and particularly multiple abortions)is associated with an increased risk of prematurity and low birth weight babies (BJOG. 2009 Oct;116(11):1425-42). And we all know that one of the major negative determinants of childhood health is prematurity and low birth weight…

    Now this is NOT what the rather despicable authors are quoted of above, however, it does bear some thought ….

  70. #70 MAJeff, OM
    February 22, 2010

    so what if the only reason a woman wants to abort is that a child is “inconvenient?” So what? Her life and sovereignty are, by any reasonable standard, more important than a blastocyst or a fetus.

    Josh, you silly boy…women aren’t fully human and don’t get sovereignty over their bodies. They are merely incubators.

  71. #71 Hypatia's Girl
    February 22, 2010

    A PERSON IS NOT DENIED LIFE.
    In almost exactly the same way as a corporation is not a fucking person, A FUCKING CLUMP OF CELLS IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO A FUCKING PERSON.

    A person who is denied life is a. a living thing which does not rely solely on another beings biological resources, a person is a moral agent, capable of deciding things.

    And who the fuck are you to decide what makes a valid reason?
    If a woman uses contraception that fails, is that valid?
    If a woman realizes that the physical, financial, emotional costs of raising a child alone, or being tied to a former partner is too great to bear, is that valid?
    Are we supposed to take your fucking word for what makes a valid reason, you douchehat?

    What sort of thought, research or common human decency have you devoted to this idea, or do you just know what counts as valid, and who knows if we can trust us flighty womens with choices about our own goddamned bodies?

  72. #72 WowbaggerOM
    February 22, 2010

    Shplane wrote:

    Whether they had begun to use said life yet or not is irrelevant.

    Actually, it’s very relevant because the mother has her life, and this trumps the potential life of the foetus. Forcing her to bear it against her will is simply wrong no matter what.

    Yes, it would be better if women didn’t need to have abortions – but that’s such an obvious thing to say that there’s no point bothering to say it.

  73. #73 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    What an interesting acronym. Are you sure you’re not thinking of “Pharyngula’s Intelligent Sexy Sisters” or “Females Against Religious Thinking”?

    ROFL! But ‘Tis, don’t you just love how GLOP falls off your tongue and leaves a stain on the floor?

  74. #74 Peter H
    February 22, 2010

    Original sin has got to be high in the pantheon of the most obscene ideas ever to come from the “mind” of man.

  75. #75 Hypatia's Girl
    February 22, 2010

    @Wowbagger – You’d think that you don’t need to say it, and then you look at the anti-choice douchecanoes and realize, oh, maybe we should mention the ways in which real steps can be taken today to reduce the number of medical procedures.

    Funnily enough none of those steps involve criminalizing or moralizing, how unfun.

  76. #76 MAJeff, OM
    February 22, 2010
    Whether they had begun to use said life yet or not is irrelevant.

    Actually, it’s very relevant because the mother has her life, and this trumps the potential life of the foetus. Forcing her to bear it against her will is simply wrong no matter what.

    See, folks we’re making mistakes in viewing women as autonomous human beings and not sperm receptacles.

  77. #77 ddpej
    February 22, 2010

    Shplane @ 59 (and previous):

    A frivolous abortion would have no purpose beyond “Oh well, I just don’t feel like having a kid. And my personal convenience is more important than someone else living.”

    Just curious: if someone views abortion in that menner, do you think they’re likely to be a good parent? I’m not talking decent, adequate, or able to keep the kid alive for eighteen years. I’m talking good, capable of providing a physically, mentally, and emotionally healthy relationship and early life. If someone goes into the process with a mindset like you describe, is that mindset going to change for the better after the birth of the inconvenient child they had to deal with for nine months?

  78. #78 llewelly
    February 22, 2010

    But ‘Tis, don’t you just love how GLOP falls off your tongue and leaves a stain on the floor?

    That way, nobody gets pregnant …

  79. #79 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    See, folks we’re making mistakes in viewing women as autonomous human beings and not sperm receptacles.

    Also, forgetting they’re just our personal meat-platform bread machines. When a woman’s got a bun in the oven, it’s everyone’s job to make sure it bakes up golden brown.

  80. #80 Michelle R
    February 22, 2010

    @MAJeff: I been following the story of antitheistangie on Twitter (she’s livetweeting her abortion), and the one thing that creeps me out the most is that the ones speaking out against abortion are not males in most cases.

    They’re FEMALES. They’re PROUD to be sperm receptacles.

  81. #81 Carlie
    February 22, 2010

    I’ll make you a deal, Shplane – you can force a woman to go through with a pregnancy that she doesn’t want if I can force you to be a liver donor, kidney donor, bone marrow donor, and cornea donor right now. It’s just a temporary inconvenience, you can live just fine after donation, and there are actual living people who will most definitely die if you don’t. Sound good?

  82. #82 Bribase
    February 22, 2010

    Shplane,

    I see you making lots of refferences to “frivolous” abortions that may be “Inconveniencing”. I can only speak from my experience and tell you that I don’t know anyone that would frame their situation so casually.

    Also, to deny the collosal biochemical, biological and emotional effect that childbirth has on a woman is simply silly. Not to mention describing a person’s readiness for parenthood as being based on how rich and popular you happen to be. it boils down to one thing for me, parenting is one of the most significant things a person can do in their life, it is a huge step. If you aren’t ready for it, don’t fucking do it!

  83. #83 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    But ‘Tis, don’t you just love how GLOP falls off your tongue and leaves a stain on the floor?

    That way, nobody gets pregnant …

    Except your tongue. And the floor.

  84. #84 MAJeff, OM
    February 22, 2010

    They’re FEMALES. They’re PROUD to be sperm receptacles.

    Well, I suppose every cumdumpster needs to be proud of something.

  85. #85 truebutnotuseful
    February 22, 2010

    Shplane wrote @ #59:

    A person is denied life.

    A blastocyst is not a person. Especially not in the same way that fully-grown pregnant woman is a person.

    Thank you for playing.

  86. #86 timrowledge
    February 22, 2010

    I’ll stop funding PP when the Catholic church stops buggering young boys

    Well, Sir Eccles (fallen in the water recently?) , best keep funding PP a bit longer than that; let us not forget that a large number of young girls have also been molested, fucked and buggered by RC ‘fathers’. The church and to a worrying extent the media seem to try to keep the emphasis on the ‘oh my, gay priests are a problem’ aspect rather than the real issue of power abuse and rape.

  87. #87 Ichthyic
    February 22, 2010

    My position is more complicated than that, and honestly I don’t want to go into it all on some fucking blog comments.

    heh…

    Heh heh…

    HAHAHAHHHAAAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAaaaa….

    *wheeze*

  88. #88 Peter H
    February 22, 2010

    Shplane says, “I don’t see how it’s that hard to define.”

    The courts, biologists, churches, politicians & philosophers have been at it for millennia trying to define “life” and “person” and have not gained much of a handle on the matter, yet you don’t see how it’s that hard. What’s not hard to see is that you don’t see.

  89. #90 MAJeff, OM
    February 22, 2010

    Awwww….look. We have one of the ladies against women spreading nonsense!

  90. #91 Hypatia's Daughter
    February 22, 2010

    #51 Hypatia’s Girl

    (and incidentally, I’m not Hypatia’s Daughter, we’re just two people with awesome nyms.)

    because we are both awesomely interested in astronomy, perhaps??

  91. #92 Peter H
    February 22, 2010

    @ 89

    One person’s perceptions of a culture-wide issue do not a believable case make. Even with a “prayer support group.”

  92. #93 Sisyphus
    February 22, 2010

    shplane. You are a moron. “a few months of minor inconvenience”

    Fuck you! You wouldn’t know minor inconvenience if it bit you in the ass. I’m 23 weeks pregnant. I have nearly died twice during this pregnancy.

    Minor inconvenience! When you’re nauseous what do you take? Gravol? A pregnant woman doesn’t have that option. I’m on prescription strength pregnancy approved pregnancy meds that cost me $60 a month and barely make a dent in my nausea. If I don’t take them I could die.

    I was unfortunate enough to get H1N1 while pregnant. What would you take if you had a potentially lethal disease? Tylenol Cold and Flu? Vicks vaporub for your chest? Neocitran? A pregnant woman can not take ANY cold medications. NOTHING! ZIP! ZILCH! NADA!

    When you get diarrhea what do you take? Immodium? A Pregnant woman (who is prone to diarrhea because of the shit that her pregnancy is doing to her body) CAN NOT TAKE ANYTHING!

    Do you think swollen ankles, carpal tunnel syndrome (numbness and tingling in the hands), potential kidney failure, potential blindness, excruciating back pain (which, GUESS WHAT ASSHOLE, you CAN’T TAKE ANYTHING FOR), headaches, varicose veins, stretch marks, sore breasts, nose bleeds, polyuria, insomnia, weird rashes et al are a MINOR INCONVENIENCE!

    And don’t even get me started on the actual childbirth! One word asshole: episiotomy!

    I know 2 things about you from your posts. 1) You’re a man (with a very small penis I’d wager) and 2) You’re a misogynist in sheep’s clothing.

    This comment has been brought to you by pregnancy hormones and a loathing of small minded idiots who couldn’t think their way out of a wet paper bag.

    As I’m now apoplectic with rage I’m going to end my comment with this. Sorry for the language and graphic descriptions folks. Idiots like shplane irk me to no end.

  93. #94 Ichthyic
    February 22, 2010

    from the “article” posted by prophetessdawn:

    Women were being maimed or dying on a regular basis from legal abortions

    oh yes, just the facts?

    ROFLMAO

    when you see an “article” with a disclaimer like THIS:

    Please Note: This article does not suggest ending legalized abortion, nor does it aim to please any religious organization. This is a straight news item with additional concurring, documented information.

    you know that everything that follows is nothing but ideological nonsense.

  94. #95 Hypatia's Girl
    February 22, 2010

    @Hypatia’s Daughter – for me, actually, philosophy. And a deep seated love of Sagan’s Cosmos.
    If I were a different kind of smart enough, astronomy all the way. I don’t think I could make it through without my apod.

  95. #96 MAJeff, OM
    February 22, 2010

    from the “article” posted by prophetessdawn:
    Women were being maimed or dying on a regular basis from legal abortions
    oh yes, just the facts?

    Same group of folks arguing that abortion causes cancer and lifelong depression….and birth defects in later children!!!!

    These are neither intellectually skilled nor ethical humans.

  96. #97 'Tis Himself, OM
    February 22, 2010

    Sisyphus #93

    As I’m now apoplectic with rage I’m going to end my comment with this. Sorry for the language and graphic descriptions folks.

    Nothing to apologize for. You told an asshole that he’s an asshole.

  97. #98 Hypatia's Girl
    February 22, 2010

    @Ichthyic – All scienzzzze for reals.
    Its funny, except you run into people who believe this shit, I’ve got a friend who was taught (WTF!) that the AIDS virus can get through condoms. In school. Public school.

    But baby jeebus forfend we actually talk to women or trust them . . .

  98. #99 MAJeff, OM
    February 22, 2010

    Its funny, except you run into people who believe this shit, I’ve got a friend who was taught (WTF!) that the AIDS virus can get through condoms. In school. Public school.

    This is the part that soooooo pisses me off. The entire “HIV can pass through the pores in a condom” bullshit is based on, not any kind of study, but a letter. A letter to the editor of the Washington Times (there’s almost a real newspaper) by, basically, a tire salesman!

  99. #100 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    Sisyphus:

    One word asshole: episiotomy!

    Lay it down, girlfriend. Perhaps Shplane might like to try an epesi-ass-tomy?

  100. #101 TWood
    February 22, 2010

    No, they don’t really care about the children because it’s not about the children. It’s about them. It’s about making themselves feel better about themselves by taking up a cause that sounds righteous.

    Look into the background of most of the violent anti-choice ‘activists’ and you will find a history of child abuse in their own lives.

    They are trying desperately to make themselves feel worthy by saving the baby humans.

  101. #102 Gyeong Hwa Pak, Pikachu para lang sa iyo.
    February 22, 2010

    Yes abortion is dangerous. . . When they were illegal. Legal abortions, however, is for the most part safe.

    For all those concerned about abortion, it has been noted that a fetus is not a living human. So it is extremely asinine to force a woman to dedicate months to it. There are many good reasons for a woman to seek an abortion, but regardless we should not question a woman’s control of her body. If you chose to carry out a pregnancy, then that’s your choice and you should get any repercussion for it. Likewise, a woman should not get repercussions for seeking a safe termination of pregnancy. (That’s a snark against any loon who claims that all pro-choicer wants to destroy “babies”. They’d be horrify to know that many pro-choicers actually do carry out their pregnancy, but care enough for their fellow humans to let them have control of their own body.)

  102. #103 Marzipan
    February 22, 2010

    @Kome #38

    You have to keep in mind, however, that rates of child abuse and neglect by family (biological or adoptive) are very low to begin with.

    Can I move to your planet then, because on this one 79.9% of child abuse and neglect are perpetrated by parents? And the next largest percentage, 6.6%, are relatives. Do you seriously think most of it goes on in satanic day care centers? I’ll provide a link, but you really could just Google things every once in a while.

    If you count all incidents of child sexual abuse, for instance, including non-caretakers, 30-40% of child sexual abuse victims are abused by a family member. I wouldn’t exactly call that a very low figure. In actuality, I suspect the percentage of parent perps is even higher, since a lot of families would definitely call the cops if an outsider sexually abused their child, but if a family member does it, they cover it up.

    As for your idea that only a small percentage of children are getting abused and neglected (and that would somehow make it okay?), do realize that the stats like almost 800,000 in the US alone in 2007 are just reported and founded cases. Most of the referrals come from mandatory reporters like schools and hospitals (and custody-battling assholes sometimes).

    There are very few concerned citizens since the general attitude is that children are property of their parents and it’s improper to meddle, plus most people are in favor of hitting one’s children as long as it’s called spanking (and anything can be called spanking, as illustrated by the fundie scumbags who killed their child with a rubber hose that PZ posted about recently). Sadly, these attitudes are not deemed insanity by modern psychiatric diagnostic practices (I wish they were).

    If the estimates of unreported rape are 2/3 to 3/4, and at least half of the victims are adults who are better equipped to report it and know that what has been done to them is illegal, the prevalence of unreported child abuse must be much greater by definition.

    So if you think child abuse is not a problem because there is so “little” of it, you must think rape is basically a non-issue since it occurs even less often.

  103. #104 Michelle R
    February 22, 2010

    @Sisyphus: Damn right girl, no need to be sorry about anything. He’s a dick and you’re right.

    I wonder how we could make men realize what a minor inconvenience it is? Bloat them with food for a few months then stretch their dicks around the eiffel tower for hours? (Eh?! Why did I think of the french just now for that example? Doesn’t make any sense.)

  104. #105 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    (Eh?! Why did I think of the french just now for that example? Doesn’t make any sense.)

    Just lie back and think of England, dear.

  105. #106 Carlie
    February 22, 2010

    Women don’t have real brains, therefore they can’t be trusted with the decision whether or not to be pregnant. (Of course, we then trust them to raise children, but you know, that’s easy.) See, the uterus has these long extensions called Freakinstupidian tubes that go all the way up to where the brain should be and strangle it – that’s how eye babies are made; they go straight through the tubes down to the uterus. This also explains why women aren’t allowed to compete in Olympic ski jumping – those tubes are fragile, and if they get broken then she’s just not good for anything any more.

  106. #107 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    February 22, 2010

    *stops munching dinner*
    It is obvious to most casual observer, the shplane is a classic concern troll. With her ass well chewed. I see lots of sniny coats and clean teeth out there. Nice job.
    *groans thinking about dessert*

  107. #108 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    See, the uterus has these long extensions called Freakinstupidian tubes that go all the way up to where the brain should be and strangle it – that’s how eye babies are made;

    Carlie, you are only the second woman on the intertubes I’ve ever said this too (the first was Janine, Mistress of Foulmouth Abuse):

    I fuckin’ love you.

    Eye babies. She said eye babies.

  108. #109 Hypatia's Girl
    February 22, 2010

    @MAJeff – well, it was in the south . . .

    @everyone else – It appears Shplane has run away, perhaps he’s doing some fucking research?

  109. #110 Bribase
    February 22, 2010

    Why are you all so convinced that shplane is a guy?

    B

  110. #111 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    February 22, 2010

    It appears Shplane has run away, perhaps he’s doing some fucking research?

    I doubt it. Too dumb.

  111. #112 WowbaggerOM
    February 22, 2010

    Hypatia’s Girl wrote:

    It appears Shplane has run away, perhaps he’s doing some fucking research?

    Do you think he pulled his head out of his ass to do it or just jammed the book up in there?

  112. #113 Gyeong Hwa Pak, Pikachu para lang sa iyo.
    February 22, 2010

    And here’s a weird twist. For all their protestations about equality, somehow they think blacks are a different species?

    White Man’s Burden, again? Still?*

    *as if I’m surprised.

  113. #114 Ichthyic
    February 22, 2010

    Why are you all so convinced that shplane is a guy?

    experience.

    probability leans heavily in favor.

  114. #115 Hypatia's Girl
    February 22, 2010

    @Wowbagger – it’s either the case that given the size of the head, the rectum is accustomed to stretching and so just shoving the book up, (and one hopes a flashlight (fleshlight?) too, or it is the case that his ass is too full, in which case I’m assuming some sort of periscope-esque device.

  115. #116 Carlie
    February 22, 2010

    Right back at ya, Josh darlin’. :)

    That eye baby thread has to be one of the top ten epic threads in Pharyngula history. EPIC, I tell you.

  116. #117 realinterrobang
    February 22, 2010

    As a genuine-article gimp™, I would like to say on behalf of myself and every other handicapped person in the world: Fuck you, Bob Marshall. Fuck you and your sick theology sideways with a burning, strychnine-tipped barrel cactus.

    Abortion wasn’t legal where and when I was born, and I simply can’t describe how furious that makes me, to know that I’m an adoptee, born of a dangerously-underage mother who was statutorily raped by a much older man…

    (Dear biological father: What the hell did you think you were doing, having unprotected sex with a fifteen-year-old girl, you fucking hebephile pervert!! Fuck you sideways with a burning, strychnine-tipped barrel cactus too!)

  117. #118 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    Fuck you sideways with a burning, strychnine-tipped barrel cactus too!)

    Don’t forget the sandpaper coating.

  118. #119 Haley
    February 22, 2010

    Alright, Shplane. An abortion debate, minus religion.

    I could go at this from a practical perspective, arguing that “frivolous” abortions are mostly a myth, but I might as well get to the heart of the issue.

    I think that the death of a “potential human” is a completely neutral.

    Is the failed attempt of all but one of the sperm in your father’s semen to meet your mother’s egg a holocaust of potential people that should be mourned? I don’t think so. We exist, and the chance of it happening was very slim. It is marvelous and I share your sense of wonder in being alive at all. But I don’t think the “death” of the potential DNA combinations when my mother’s egg chose her winning sperm was a tragedy.

    I don’t mourn the person I would have become if my parents had not decided to move across the state. I don’t mourn the person I would have been if I had gotten in to my top choice college. I mean every choice I make, and everything that happens to me, destroys some sort of potential me.

    The non-existence of potential Haleys is not tragic. The potential Haleys don’t exist. They find their nonexistence pretty neutral. Likewise I think that potential babies are pretty neutral about existing in the future. I can care about my existence in retrospect, but if my mother had decided to abort, I wouldn’t care because I wouldn’t exist to be upset about it. I don’t see why anyone else should be upset about my nonexistence, because you can’t miss a person you never knew.

  119. #120 Capital Dan
    February 22, 2010

    Bribase February 22, 2010 9:37 PM

    Why are you all so convinced that shplane is a guy?

    I’ m not. However, I am convinced, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Shplane is a gibbering, soft-headed, simp who might very well be some sort of sick, twisted, punishment of God’s upon humanity for eating shellfish and wearing pants.

  120. #121 SC OM
    February 22, 2010

    Not that I disagree with the premise espoused – i.e. that abortion is necessary, reasonable and often humane – but it should be mentioned that it appears abortion confers some risk to subsequent children .

    Having an abortion (and particularly multiple abortions)is associated with an increased risk of prematurity and low birth weight babies (BJOG. 2009 Oct;116(11):1425-42). And we all know that one of the major negative determinants of childhood health is prematurity and low birth weight…

    Now this is NOT what the rather despicable authors are quoted of above, however, it does bear some thought ….

    I’ve now skimmed that meta-analysis (of research going back to the ’60s from around the world based on self-reports and controlling for different or no confounding variables), and found it pretty weak, especially in that they acknowledge at some moments that they can’t really say anything about causality but then at others imply that it is a “risk” which women should be warned of.

  121. #122 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    Haley, #119 – clear, and brilliantly put.

  122. #123 SEF
    February 22, 2010

    @ Biddy #26:

    I can?t help but think that their real position is anti-woman.

    Eg this set of comparisons of views held.

  123. #124 raven
    February 22, 2010

    West J Med. 1990 June; 152(6): 725?728. PMCID: PMC1002453

    Low-birth-weight effects of demographic and socioeconomic variables and prenatal care in Pima County, Arizona.
    I. L. Schwartz
    Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Arizona College of Medicine, Tucson 85724.

    Abstract
    Low birth weight is the major determinant of infant mortality. Continuing declines in infant mortality in the United States are due to the use of neonatal intensive care services; less progress has been made toward preventing low birth weight. I examined how the demographic, socioeconomic, and health services use variables affected rates of low birth weights in Pima County, Arizona, in 1985. Women at greatest risk of having the smallest infants were those younger than 21 years and those with fewer than 6 prenatal visits. Nulliparous women with fewer than 6 prenatal visits showed a still greater risk of having an infant of low birth weight.

    Women without medical insurance coverage had babies with the lowest mean birth weights, as well as significantly fewer prenatal visits. As the number of uninsured in the United States increases, the effect of lack of insurance among pregnant women becomes increasingly important. To prevent low-weight births, comprehensive maternity care services must be available to all pregnant women regardless of ability to pay.

    Lots of factors contribute to low birth weight babies. The main risk is being younger than 21. Another major risk factor is being poor and not having health insurance.

    If the forced childbirth kooks really gave a damn about low birth weight babies, they would make sure that effective contraception is available to women under 21 at free or reduced cost. They would also make sure that health care is available to everyone, especially young, poor, pregnant women.

    But they don’t really give a damn. They are control freaks and fetus worshippers who have no real interest in the “postborns” that others call….people.

  124. #125 Azkyroth
    February 22, 2010

    Have they ever considered that if they promoted the use of contraceptive, it would dramatically reduce the occurance of abortions? Or does reason evade them?

    No, because their purpose isn’t to minimize the number of abortions, it’s to maximize the “punishment” for women having sex. The tearjerker bullshit about killing babies is just a (ahem) Trojan horse.

  125. #126 Kemist
    February 22, 2010

    And yes, pregnancy is a big deal for a woman’s body. Never getting to exist in the first place is a bigger one. I can’t find it in myself to feel more sorry for woman who has to go through a few months of minor inconvenience

    Possible complications of pregnancy:

    - hemorrhage, which can necessitate removal of uterus and subsequent sterility, and can lead, among other things, to DEATH

    - Eclampsia, a catastrophic reaction in which multiple organs fail, and frequently (100% untreated, about 30% in medical settings) leads to DEATH

    - Infections & septicemia, which can lead to either of the following fun things : paralysis, brain damage, multiple amputations and… DEATH

    - Faulty presentation of the baby, which can lead to fistula (loss of the bladder which involves wearing a urine sack for the rest of your miserable life)

    - 10- to 100 fold growth acceleration of an incipient ER+ cancer

    - kidney failure, necessitating dialysis and/or graft

    - Grave’s disease (quite frequent), an autoimmune disease which destroys the thyroid

    - types 1 & 2 diabetes

    - MS

    Pregnancy is not a “minor incovenience”. It is a risky business which should be undertaken with informed consent and without any type of coercion.

    Forcing a woman to undergo pregnancy is in no way different than forcing an healthy person to donate a kidney.

  126. #127 roamingirl
    February 22, 2010

    Can’t write to Bob. He removed the option and put a press release in its place. I was going to tell him to not inflict his sadistic god on the people of this great country.

  127. #128 Azkyroth
    February 22, 2010

    I think in this case it’s you who is confusing what is actually true with what you wish to be true. The National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect found that children with disabilities got physically and sexually abused at around twice the rate of other children, and emotionally neglected three times as often. And the child’s disability is considered one of the risks during assessment in child welfare work.

    I would assume that’s why he added the corollary “by a sane parent.”

  128. #129 Azkyroth
    February 22, 2010

    But I sure would like living in a world where no woman was put into a situation where she felt she needed an abortion, and where we had the resources to support all children.

    So would pretty much everyone here.

  129. #130 Keanus
    February 22, 2010

    The anti-Planned Parenthood crowd are all loons, ignorant and proud of it. I’ve escorted patients every week at our local PP clinic for over six years and I can attest to both the good the organization does and the bizarre nature of its opposition.

    As to the good, PP clinics are essentially low cost or free gynecological practices where the practice is as much about counseling as medical care. Most visits, around 90 to 95%, are for family planning, pap smears, breast exams, gynecological exams and related medical services?even maternity care during pregnancy. Only 5 to 10% of patients visits are for abortions. And, no, virtually no patient uses abortion as a form of birth control. It’s an emergency measure when things go wrong. And PP accepts walk in visits from anyone. And long before pre-abortion counseling was mandated by states, most PP clinics provided it. PP also provides after abortion counseling, most clinics insisting that patients return for birth control guidance and prescriptions.

    As for the opponents who picket regularly they are remarkably consistent with few exceptions: PP patients are loose, immoral women; they use abortion as an easier form of birth control; the aborted fetus is a living human being capable of all the feelings, emotions, and senses of adults. Opponents are consistently control freaks and misogynists with only trivial exceptions. They conjure up fantasies they want to believe about abortion and PP, yet none have ever visited a clinic and have no idea what an abortion or PP counseling entails, other than what their fevered imaginations can conjure up. They only want to misinform, frighten and scare the bejesus out of patients. They are not “sidewalk counselors” as they claim. They are all about harassment and intimidation.

  130. #131 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 22, 2010

    I think Shplane has Hit-n-Run us.

  131. #132 Carlie
    February 22, 2010

    Forcing a woman to undergo pregnancy is in no way different than forcing an healthy person to donate a kidney.

    And then the kidney pees all the time, and sucks out half your boob every two hours and then immediately projectile vomits it back onto you, and keeps you awake all the time, and then takes your keys and wrecks the car.

  132. #133 Julia
    February 22, 2010

    Shplane:

    I hope by now you have reconsidered your position. I will add one small point in case you haven’t.

    You said if a woman has ample resources to raise a child she should, but the arguement could be made that it is the more ethical choice for her to have an abortion and commit those resources to helping EXISTING people.

    Besides the fact that I have no desire for children, I honestly think I can contribute more to humanity by not being a parent than I would be able to if I was a parent.

    As an off-topic aside, I just learned about the Salem Hypothesis and as an engineer it made me embarrassed and sad. Allow me to provide some ammo against any creationist engineers (at least those from BC, Canada). In our code of ethics, points 2 and 3 are as follows:

    (2) undertake and accept responsibility for professional assignments only when qualified by training or experience;
    (3) provide an opinion on a professional subject only when it is founded upon adequate knowledge and honest conviction;
    http://www.apeg.bc.ca/resource/publications/actbylawscode.html

    Making claims about biology with little or no training in biology most certainly goes against the spirit of the Code of Ethics of APEGBC. I believe the other provinces have similar codes and I do not know the situation in the US.

  133. #134 Biddy
    February 22, 2010

    @ SEF #123

    Ya that seems to just about sum it up. It?s like some bizarre pro-life/English dictionary. ?This is what they say, and this is what they mean!? certainly kindling for discussion. Thanks for the post!

  134. #135 otrame
    February 22, 2010

    “Frivolous” abortions are a fucking myth. Well, almost. I suppose there are a few women out there who are that brain dead. Speaking for my whole society (as so many hyper-religious do) we are better off without children raised by such women floating around.

    It is true that abortion is a lousy method of birth control.

    So, Shplane, when you have spent a great deal of time and effort, either through educating yourself or through money, to encourage the development of effective, safe birth control, and have worked tirelessly toward educating young people how to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, and gone to schools to hand out condoms and such, THEN you get to whine about “frivolous” abortions. You’ll still be wrong, but at least you will have done something that actually prevents abortions–and does it without infringing on anyone’s right to control their body.

    Oh, and @69, unless that study controlled for economic and social factors, all they are reporting is an observed correlation. Let’s all say it together, kids:

    Correlation does not mean causation.

    I suspect that the association of low birth weight babies in pregnancies subsequent to abortions is at least partially related to said economic and social factors. I may be wrong and that is okay if I am, but did they, for instance limit their study to women who have health insurance and can afford the kind of healthcare that can prevent unwanted pregnancies? Most (though certainly not all) abortions are done by very young or very poor women because these days, those are the women who have very limited access to birth control more sophisticated than a condom.

  135. #136 Thorne
    February 22, 2010

    PZ said:

    we are his god’s instrument of torture for our parents.

    Having once been a kid, and being a parent now, I regretfully have to say that, well, sometimes they get SOMETHING right!

  136. #137 JBM
    February 22, 2010

    I’ve now skimmed that meta-analysis (of research going back to the ’60s from around the world based on self-reports and controlling for different or no confounding variables), and found it pretty weak, especially in that they acknowledge at some moments that they can’t really say anything about causality but then at others imply that it is a “risk” which women should be warned of.

    Mmmmh, not sure I agree. This is a reasonable article, published in a reasonable peer reviewed journal. The observation has some biological plausibility and the majority of studies included in the meta analysis were cohort studies. The effect was significant and exhibited a dose response relationship. That being said, there are issues that always surround this type of study and causation vs association is one.

    In any event it is something I would mention to someone considering an abortion.

  137. #138 jcmartz.myopenid.com
    February 22, 2010

    Sarah Palin has a child with Down syndrome does that mean she has had an abortion that we don’t know about?

  138. #139 Kome
    February 22, 2010

    @Marzipan #103

    I meant that more parents take good (or good enough) care of their children than abuse/neglect them. I was imprecise in my wording, and I apologize for that. But it’s true. There are approximately 40 million minors in the US. 800,000/40,000,000 = 2%. And yes, I know it’s under reported, so let’s just double it. 4%. Statistically that’s rare.

    However, don’t put words in my mouth by saying that I don’t think the problem should be addressed because they are rare events. It’s a serious problem. But let’s not pretend it’s an even bigger problem than it is. Abuse/neglect of children is horrific enough as it is. No need to puff it up.

  139. #140 Ichthyic
    February 22, 2010

    In any event it is something I would mention to someone considering an abortion.

    why?

    because you read an article you aren’t sure about?

    I frankly find your motive to do so suspicious at best, then.

    I rather think a better approach would be to simply refer someone to the paper, if and only if, they express interest in the subject to begin with.

  140. #141 natural cynic
    February 22, 2010

    Melissa Harris-Lacewell commented on The Rachel Maddow Show this evening that Marshall was theologically wrong. So, of course, I had to look it up [Exodus 13]. The real meaning is that the first-born is to be dedicated/redeemed/sacrificed: the first male born from a clean animal should be sacrificed at the Temple [a burnt offering and feeding the priests - nice racket]; and the first born child should be offered to God / redeemed in remembrance of the last plague of Egypt where all first-born were killed on the first Passover night, except for the Jews who sacrificed a lamb and spread the blood around the door. In the specific case of Jesus of Nazereth, this ended with the blood sacrifice by crucifixion.

    So, technically, aborting the first-born is some sort of bloody sacrifice :/

  141. #142 Ichthyic
    February 22, 2010

    observation has some biological plausibility

    wtf does that mean, exactly?

  142. #143 Rey Fox
    February 22, 2010

    “they want all state funding, about $35,000 a year, stopped.”

    Wow, thirty-five thousand. What a pot of gold. Fiscal responsibility, and all that shit.

  143. #144 Hypatia's Daughter
    February 22, 2010

    #126 Kemist

    Forcing a woman to undergo pregnancy is in no way different than forcing an healthy person to donate a kidney.

    I always wondered why organ donation isn’t cumpulsory if life is so sacred? If a woman has to “donate” her organs to keep an “unborn baby” alive, why not make everyone donate theirs to keep “born babies” alive?
    Maybe because free men have always had the right to bodily integrity (freedom from assault; the right to self-defense; even the right not to risk your life to save another). Women had those protections from other men (but not from the males in their families) – oh, and not in regards to pregnancy because the baby was the property of its father.
    Gotta get me some of that ol’ time religion so men can go back to being the head honcho’s in the family and the uppity little woman learns to walk three paces behind, like God intended….

  144. #145 raven
    February 23, 2010

    JMB:

    In any event it is something I would mention to someone considering an abortion.

    CDC:

    The maternal mortality rate in the U.S. is the highest it has been in decades, according to statistics released this week by CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics, the AP/Washington Post reports. According to the figures, the U.S. maternal mortality rate was 13 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2004.

    The rate was 12 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2003 — the first year the maternal death rate was more than 10 since 1977 (Stobbe, AP/Washington Post, 8/24). A total of 540 women were reported to have died of maternal causes in 2004, 45 more than were reported in 2003, according to the report (NCHS report, 8/21).

    CDC:

    Death rate as a result of abortion: “…deaths [from complications] related to legal induced abortions occurred rarely.” There were fewer than one death due to complications per 100,000 legal abortions. From 1993 to 1997, the case-fatality rate was 0.6 deaths per 100,000 abortions. This is much lower than the rate of maternal deaths for completed pregnancies. Having a legal abortion is safer, on average, than completing the pregnancy. 1 Abortions that are performed early in pregnancy lead to far fewer complications than abortions done later.

    I see. I assume you would also tell a pregnant teen that the chance of her dying of childbirth is 20 times the death rate from getting an abortion.

    And that if she is poor and has no health insurance that her chances of a low birth weight baby go way up?

    Cue the control freaks, woman haters, and fetus worshippers in 10 9 8 7….

    Really I’m surprised they haven’t shown up sooner. Must be lying low since one of their xian terrorist assassins just got convicted of first degree murder.

  145. #146 wanderinweeta
    February 23, 2010

    Michelle #66:

    (Yes, I know I’m ‘way far back in the thread. I’ll catch up later.)

    Few months of minor inconvenience =
    1- Mood swings
    2- weird cravings
    3- morning sickness
    4- Becoming huge.
    5- Swollen ankles.
    6- Prenatal care.
    7- Headaches.
    8- Back pain.
    9- Stretching your vagina to extents never imagined before (Unless you’re into some weird S&M). With all that ripping and such… And that hurting… You know where it hurts so much you wanna KILL THAT GUY and scream “YOU DID THIS TO ME!!!!!!”
    10- Oh… POTENTIAL DEATH.
    (Forgotten a few things here.)

    Yes. You have. Quite a few. Most of them come later:
    - Ripping.
    - Uterine cramps. Bad ones.
    - Constipation like you wouldn’t believe.
    - Sore boobs. Worse nipples. Stained clothes.
    - Adhesions.
    - 5 years or so of backaches, not helped by carrying kids.
    - Teething. The kid gets them, you lose them.
    - Doctor’s offices, emergency rooms becoming familiar territory.
    - 10 more years of backaches … “If only I could get a bit of a rest!”
    - 20 years of laundry.
    - 15 years of picky eaters.
    - 25 years of “I never imagined a kid could cost so much!”
    - 50 years of worry.

    And at the end of it all, still the backache.

    “Minor inconvenience,” right.

    (And I’m a mother and grandmother, and I love all my kids. But it was never, ever “convenient.)

  146. #147 raven
    February 23, 2010

    Keanus:

    The anti-Planned Parenthood crowd are all loons, ignorant and proud of it. I’ve escorted patients every week at our local PP clinic for over six years and I can attest to both the good the organization does and the bizarre nature of its opposition.

    One of the most effective organizations at preventing abortions is… Planned Parenthood.

    As Keanus notes above, most of their activities involve providing birth control and other health services to girls and women that need them.

    We’ve known for decades how to lower the abortion rate. Educate the kids with real and useful information and provide ready access to birth control for those who need it and want it.

    Yelling at people outside of clinics and terrorists shooting MDs in the head hasn’t worked and it won’t work.

  147. #148 hp5678
    February 23, 2010

    I live in Virginia and go to Planned Parenthood for yearly checkups. I have been able to get a physical, pap smear (cervical cancer screening), breast exam, STD testing (HIV/AIDS, gonorrhea, chlamydia, herpes, syphilis, etc.), and a prescription for birth control for less than $200. That is a STEAL. It’s quite unfortunate that these and other idiots don’t realize PP provides BASIC HEALTHCARE for both women and men.

    Planned Parenthood IS a heroic organization especially to women like me. As a victim of the Great Recession, i.e. losing my job and having no health insurance, PP has literally been my lifesaver. I know I can go there if I get sick and not worry about possibly having to file for medical bankruptcy.

    These assholes need to stop hating on women and trust us to make the right decisions for ourselves. I *love* how the Republicans in this state want less government in people’s lives … except when it comes to women’s bodies.

  148. #149 Jeff P
    February 23, 2010

    A couple people have mentioned the similarity between denying access to abortions and forcing organ donation. I hadn’t previously linked the two, but I find it a compelling comparison.

    Of course, I need anything to distract myself from the realization that loving my black wife as a white man isn’t just miscegenation, it’s bestiality.

  149. #150 Zernk
    February 23, 2010

    Yeah. Funny. The ass-wipe can’t handle the comments.

    Little smegma stain.

  150. #151 Molly, NYC
    February 23, 2010

    I realize Wikipedia isn’t always the most accurate source for political or popular-culture items, but here’s what they have for his entire career prior to entering state politics:

    Before election to the Virginia House of Delegates in 1991, Marshall was a staffer for the American Life League, an organization which opposes all forms of abortion and birth control.

    His website tells of his family, where he went to school, the size of his personal library, but absolutely nothing about his previous employment.

    That’s all there is about his work life, so if he did anything else his entire adult life besides go to school, work as a professional sexophobe (which is essentially what the ALL does), and hold elected office, it’s not there. Apparently, he didn’t teach school, didn’t manage a Wendy’s, didn’t write code, didn’t work construction–didn’t do anything his whole life but attempt to make sex as punitive and scary for women as he possibly could.

    Creepy, creepy little guy.

  151. #152 https://me.yahoo.com/wmdkitty#83021
    February 23, 2010

    As a disabled person, I just want to say:

    Fuck Bob Marshall up the ass with a rusty chainsaw. And no lube.

  152. #153 truth machine, OM
    February 23, 2010

    a person getting to exist

    Conceptually muddled much?

    If it’s a grave offense to deny non-existent persons the opportunity to exist, then we should all be having as much sexual intercourse as possible. And we should be turning women into incubators (voluntarily or otherwise) for lab-spawned fetuses, and we should be figuring out how to modify men to be able to carry fetuses to term as well. And that’s just the start — a mere infinitesimal effort, as there are vastly infinitely many non-existent persons that could potentially be brought into existence.

    If. OTOH, this completely deranged and incoherent rationale for opposing abortion, this feigned concern for abstract non-persons-that-don’t-exist-(yet) may mask an alienation from and disregard for real persons, especially female ones, as well as an ideological opposition to anything that smells “liberal” (the notion that abortion is murder was introduced into the American political arena in 1980 by Paul Weyrich and Richard Viguerie as a successful strategy to get Ronald Reagan elected; before then, street marches were almost invariably for progressive causes, but abortion gave religious conservatives an issue that they could passionately organize around just like those filthy college students opposing the war in VietNam had).

  153. #154 truth machine, OM
    February 23, 2010

    This is the only life their is, and to deny that to anyone, even a potential someone, is atrocious.

    What I find atrocious is the quality of your thinking.

    What if, some day, we were able to build fully conscious robots. Would it be atrocious to refuse to turn a pile of parts into such a robot?

    Or what if, some day, we were able to develop human noses into living human beings (it turns out that only noses work, for obscure technical reasons). Would it be atrocious for you to refuse to cut yours off so that it could live a full, rich life?

  154. #155 truth machine, OM
    February 23, 2010

    I can’t fully endorse all abortions all the time.

    Neither does Roe v. Wade, which virtually all pro-choice advocates accept, so that’s not saying much.

    Not that I’m going to stone anyone for it, or, y’know, be an asshole.

    As long as you aren’t working to put up roadblocks to prevent women from getting legal abortions, it doesn’t matter what you endorse. (OTOH, by talking about “frivolous” abortions and “minor” inconveniences, ignoring the massive impact of adding a child to a family, you’re being an asshole).

  155. #156 Amunium
    February 23, 2010

    So, how many abortions did Sarah Palin have then?

    What I’d like to know is: How many abortions did Sarah Palin’s MOTHER have?

  156. #157 Cactus Wren
    February 23, 2010

    I have just created a Facebook group called “Donate to Planned Parenthood in Bob Marshall?s name“.

  157. #158 Knockgoats
    February 23, 2010

    Here’s the text of Marshall’s “apology” [emphasis added]:

    A story by Capital News Service regarding my remarks at a recent press conference opposing taxpayer funding for Planned Parenthood conveyed the impression that I believe disabled children are a punishment for prior abortions. No one who knows me or my record would imagine that I believe or intended to communicate such an offensive notion. I have devoted a generation of work to defending disabled and unwanted children, and have always maintained that they are special blessings to their parents. Nevertheless, I regret any misimpression my poorly chosen words may have created as to my deep commitment to fighting for these vulnerable children and their families.

    So, if we combine this with his (false) claim that subsequent children of women who have an abortion are more likely to be disabled, we conclude that God rewards abortion with a “special blessing”.

  158. #159 Pen
    February 23, 2010

    Everybody except Christian fundamentalists realises that contraception is highly preferable to abortion. They seem to think the two are about equal. Yet another reason why they’re a force for evil on this planet. If I could point to one invention that reduces human suffering, it might well be contraception.

    P.S. non-existent-gods, but it was hard work getting registered here in order to state the obvious.

  159. #160 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    February 23, 2010

    As a disabled person, I just want to say:

    Fuck Bob Marshall up the ass with a rusty chainsaw. And no lube.

    I’m going to make a guess that lube isn’t going to make much of a difference here.

  160. #161 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    February 23, 2010

    The whole Black Genocide thing is a common rally point of some of the more fucked up (and that’s saying something) anti-abortion crowd. There was one commenter that used to come here making that claim over and over.

    This is his website, or at least one he is very proud of.

  161. #162 catgirl
    February 23, 2010

    Abortion is legal in this country. Religious groups don’t get to have any say in it, and in return, they don’t have to pay any taxes. Since they don’t pay taxes, they don’t get to have any say in how tax money is spent on a legal procedure. For the members who pay taxes on an individual basis, they’ll have to take up their issue with the supreme court. Please everyone, remember this the next time anyone claims to be pro-life. They’d rather see women die than let them have abortions.

  162. #163 catgirl
    February 23, 2010

    Have they ever considered that if they promoted the use of contraceptive, it would dramatically reduce the occurance of abortions? Or does reason evade them?

    You’ve made the mistake of believing that they’re arguing in good faith. The truth is, they don’t care about embryos all the much. They hate sex, and hate the idea that a woman could get away with having sex and get no punishment for it. They want sex to result in pregnancy, and they want all those women to be forced to have children against their will, as punishment for their sexuality. That’s why so many anti-abortioners favor exceptions for rape and incest. If the women didn’t voluntarily have sex, then she’s “innocent” and doesn’t deserve the punishment of forced childbirth. If embryos were so precious to them, they’d care about all of them regardless of the circumstances. I personally don’t think that children should exist solely as punishment, but that’s because I’m a decent human being who doesn’t think that sex is sinful.

  163. #164 Peter H
    February 23, 2010

    In the press item quoted above, Marshall says, “…disabled and unwanted children, and [I] have always maintained that they are special blessings to their parents.”

    A child is a blessing. To imply that the blessing is somehow enhanced by or is contingent upon the disability is sadistic? hateful? non-think? stupid? All of them at once?

  164. #165 catgirl
    February 23, 2010

    A person is denied life. Whether they had begun to use said life yet or not is irrelevant.

    This same reasoning could easily be used to justify rape. Do you think rape is good? If no man ever raped a women, then there are people in this world who would never have been conceived. Are you saying that those people shouldn’t exist?

    What about pre-marital sex? If my parents had been abstinent until marriage, my older brother would never have been conceived. I also wouldn’t exist because my parents probably wouldn’t have married each other. Why do you hate my brother so much that you wish he was never conceived? In fact, what about the billions and billions of precious babies that are never even conceived because people aren’t fucking constantly? And what about those 9 other babies that were never conceived because my mom didn’t ovulate while she was pregnant with me? I have denied 9 other lives before I was even born. I also didn’t have sex for years after I started menstruating, so I denied life to dozens of people when I was just a preteen.

  165. #166 Kemist
    February 23, 2010

    If embryos were so precious to them, they’d care about all of them regardless of the circumstances.

    Some of them do. They’re even more monstrous – and you’d believe that is impossible. There was a post here a whle ago about a 9-year-old who’s parents and doctor were excommunicated for agreeing and performing a life-saving abortion of twins – because her uterus couldn’t contain one, much less two feotuses, the pregnancy would have killed her. She had been made pregnant by her father-in-law, who wasn’t excommunicated.

    A person is denied life. Whether they had begun to use said life yet or not is irrelevant.

    So… I have kidney failure, you’re a perfect match – GIVE ME THAT KIDNEY !

    If you don’t, you’re “denying me life”, you monster.

  166. #167 peter.jeaiem
    February 23, 2010

    Black humans being a species on its own is bad enough bull… but the black children species ???

  167. #168 Menyambal
    February 23, 2010

    I do find it amusing that the anti-abortionist crowd is now decrying the decrease of population in groups that they happily hate in all other circumstances. That “species” business is quite the slip.

    I also find it bizarre that rape is no excuse for abortion. Why should a man court a woman, marry her, and work hard to support a family, all just to have a limited number of children, when he could instead go on a rape spree and have hundreds of children?

  168. #169 catgirl
    February 23, 2010

    Some of them do. They’re even more monstrous – and you’d believe that is impossible. There was a post here a whle ago about a 9-year-old who’s parents and doctor were excommunicated for agreeing and performing a life-saving abortion of twins – because her uterus couldn’t contain one, much less two feotuses, the pregnancy would have killed her. She had been made pregnant by her father-in-law, who wasn’t excommunicated.

    Are you really surprised that a group of child molesters would side with another child molester? They probably blame the victim and think that a 9 year-old girl deserves to die for tempting an adult man. I know the Catholic church doesn’t support rape exceptions, but they most likely didn’t even consider this to be a case of rape, because they’re cruel, hateful men who love to blame the victim, especially if it’s a female victim. It is telling though that they don’t even support exceptions for the life of the pregnant woman. Let’s all remember that next time they claim to be “pro-life”.

  169. #170 Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM
    February 23, 2010

    Posted by: Menyambal| February 23, 2010 10:20 AM

    I also find it bizarre that rape is no excuse for abortion. Why should a man court a woman, marry her, and work hard to support a family, all just to have a limited number of children, when he could instead go on a rape spree and have hundreds of children?

    You are forgetting that the biblical punishment for the rapist is this, he shall pay the father of the woman he raped a fine and then take the victim as his bride. Yeah, shows the high regard for women the big shy daddy has. Hell, this is part of the reason ‘biblical morality’ sickens me.

  170. #171 Endor
    February 23, 2010

    “Why should a man court a woman, marry her, and work hard to support a family, all just to have a limited number of children, when he could instead go on a rape spree and have hundreds of children?”

    LOL. Wow, dude. Why do you hate men so much?

  171. #172 Eileen
    February 23, 2010

    Seriously? Black women are having so many abortions as to “endanger” the “species”? God. Putting aside the species gaffe, I would like to see actual proof that abortion means black humans are in danger of disappearing. Good luck with that. Now, as for the thousands that perish every day in third world countries – if life is actually sacred to anti-abortion activists, they would be working overtime saving their fellow man.

  172. #173 Blondin
    February 23, 2010

    I just watched Angie’s video. I just can’t express the admiration and respect I have for this lady. Not for having an abortion, I’m in no position to judge whether that is the right thing for her to do (though I believe I would do the same in her position). I think her decision to broadcast this message on Youtube is a very honest, brave, caring and compassionate thing to do and I hope it goes viral.

  173. #174 Lynna, OM
    February 23, 2010

    Josh, Official SpokesGay, you are doing us all proud here today. Just wanted to thank you for “epesi-ass-tomy” (@100) and for “Just lie back and think of England, dear.” (@105) — not to mention many other fine points about reality — I think this might be your Molly-award-winning thread.

    As for your comment @108, though … I was taken aback.

    Carlie, you are only the second woman on the intertubes I’ve ever said this too (the first was Janine, Mistress of Foulmouth Abuse):
    I fuckin’ love you.

    Does this mean you no longer want to marry me? I think I wanna marry you. Even though I’m the SpokesGay.

  174. #175 truebutnotuseful
    February 23, 2010

    Too bad Shplane hasn’t come back to continue the discussion. Talk about a DICK MOVE, as it were.

  175. #176 fireweaver
    February 23, 2010

    Posted by: Amunium #157

    “So, how many abortions did Sarah Palin have then?”

    What I’d like to know is: How many abortions did Sarah Palin’s MOTHER have?

    ==

    Just one. The baby died and the afterbirth (Sarah) survived.

  176. #177 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    February 23, 2010

    Lynna:

    Does this mean you no longer want to marry me?

    Oh, you’re right – for a SpokesGay, I sure am profligate with my love for the ladies! Fear not. You’re the only one I’ve proposed marriage to (yet:)

  177. #178 Lynna, OM
    February 23, 2010

    Oh, you’re right – for a SpokesGay, I sure am profligate with my love for the ladies! Fear not. You’re the only one I’ve proposed marriage to (yet:)

    Okay, then! [Climbs back up on her pedestal, checks up-do hair for perfection.]

    On the other hand, a love square (as opposed to a love triangle) that included Carlie, Janine, myself and the SpokesGay might be … enlivening.

  178. #179 Carlie
    February 23, 2010

    Lynna – you can have the tax break with Josh, Janine and I will just come over on weekends so we can all enjoy spending time together. :D

  179. #180 Janine, Mistress Of Foul Mouth Abuse, OM
    February 23, 2010

    What did I just get in the middle of?

    It is not like I am complaining though.

  180. #181 Caine
    February 23, 2010

    Shplane @ 45:

    I can, however, say that someone who has an absolutely wonderful life, plenty of resources with which to support a child, and blah blah blah whatever, is being a bit goddamn selfish by saying “Oh, a child would inconvenience me. I guess I’ll just deny this individual the right to ever exist.”

    I’m not saying there should never be abortions. I’m saying there shouldn’t be frivolous abortions over whatever the fuck someone wants. Because it’s a DICK MOVE.

    Oh well, excuuuuse me. Wait, who are you, exactly, to define “frivolous” in the case of abortion.

    I had an abortion 35 years ago. If doctors in the U.S. wouldn’t pat young women on the head when they request sterilization, basically saying “oh, you don’t know your own mind, you’ll want children” that abortion wouldn’t have happened. (Yes, I was using contraception when I got pregnant. It happens.)

    Did I have the resources to have and care for that potential child? Yep, I did. Did I want it? No, I absolutely did not. It’s not up to you to define that abortion as frivolous. You don’t fucking know me; you don’t have the any business classifying an abortion on the basis of “frivolity”. I did eventually manage to get sterilized even though I was young (doctors here don’t care to do that until you’re 35 years old), no further accidents happened, I never needed another abortion. However, if I had gotten pregnant again, I would have aborted again. You have a dick attitude.

  181. #182 Slugsie
    February 25, 2010

    In the Old Testament, the first born of every being, animal and man, was dedicated to the Lord. There’s a special punishment Christians would suggest.

    As both a life-long atheist, and a life-long first born I laugh at this assertion. You snivelling little toad.

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