Pharyngula

These guys are dangerous nuts

Mike Vanderboegh is one of those teabagger patriots — he’s very upset about illegal immigrants, he’s one of those paramilitary fanatics, he hates Democrats, and lately he’s gotten completely unhinged about the passage of our watered down health care bill. He’s so irate that now he’s publicly inciting violence (which is nothing new, he’s been advocating civil war for years):

So, if you wish to send a message that Pelosi and her party cannot fail to hear, break their windows.

Break them NOW. Break them and run to break again. Break them under cover of night. Break them in broad daylight. Break them and await arrest in willful, principled civil disobedience. Break them with rocks. Break them with slingshots. Break them with baseball bats.

But BREAK THEM.

The time has come to take your life, your liberty and that of your children and grandchildren into your own two hands and ACT.

It is, after all, more humane than shooting them in self defense.

And if we do a proper job, if we break the windows of hundreds, thousands, of Democrat party headquarters across this country, we might just wake up enough of them to make defending ourselves at the muzzle of a rifle unnecessary.

Great. Another homegrown fascist who has never heard of Kristallnacht.

Vanderboegh is a pretentious thug, but here’s the surprise. The gun-totin’ proud “Son of Liberty” who rails against big government and hates socialism is unemployed and living off his government disability checks.

Comments

  1. #1 startlingmoniker
    March 27, 2010

    $10 says this guy won’t bother breaking a single window himself, though. Sounds like a gutless, big-mouthed moron.

  2. #2 Givesgoodemail
    March 27, 2010

    Isn’t it always that way with people like Mike V? “We don’t want this! We don’t want that! Oh, but don’t take away what we’ve already got!”

  3. #3 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    A right-wing libertarian teabagger living on the public dole. Why am I not surprised?

  4. #4 Carlie
    March 27, 2010

    He is absolutely vile. I think he needs to be charged with inciting terrorism, and with making death treats to members of Congress (his muzzle of a rifle comment).

    Speaking of terrorism, what I can’t stand is how the media throws around charges of terrorism every time someone who is Not A Republican does something threatening, but never, ever calls actions of good ol’ red-blooded Americans as such. Either call all calls to violent overthrow terrorism, or don’t use the term at all.

  5. #5 MetalMoe
    March 27, 2010

    startlingmoniker wrote:

    $10 says this guy won’t bother breaking a single window himself, though. Sounds like a gutless, big-mouthed moron.

    I think he’s anything but gutless. He’s getting his disability cheque for congestive heart failure, diabetes and hypertension. Sounds like his has too much of a gut to me.

  6. #6 Autumn
    March 27, 2010

    Kind of a twisted definition of “civil disobedience”, what with the violent assaults and all.

  7. #7 Zeno
    March 27, 2010

    This kind of profound myopia demonstrated how difficult it is to overestimate the stupidity of some people. Vanderboegh would probably be dead or homeless without his government disability check, yet he rants and raves about being oppressed by the state. It would take years of education to raise him to the idiot level.

  8. #8 startlingmoniker
    March 27, 2010

    You gotta love some of the comments, though– they’re hilarious.

    “I’m posting this from a Democratic meeting room… they are very scared. They’re trying to shrug it off as right wing extremism but I think they know that this message is coming from a pro-liberty majority. If you continue these operations it might push them over the edge.”

    Okaaaaay. I love how this anonymous comment takes Joe-Bob’s call for breaking windows (transformed by his readers into mailing rocks or laying them down in front of windows symbolically) into “operations.”

  9. #9 backwardsbuddhist
    March 27, 2010

    Seems like the “but I deserve it” mentality at work. Most of these extreme positions come out of a sense of separateness and uniqueness, when in fact, he is no different from the bleeding heart liberal next door, well maybe in the next state:) Willingness to take the consequences is at least a step in the direction of recognizing they are citizens of the same country and subject to the same laws as the rest of us. I was beginning to think they thought these actions were lawful and acceptable practice if done by the far far far right. Frightening as this is, it is amusing in the sense of proposing civil-disobedience when it was such a liberal demonic activity in the ’60′s and ’70′s. Lest we forget, these acts of vandalism have just been taken over by the other end of the political spectrum to make their point. I wonder if they will achieve anything more than the Berrigan brothers and the peace marches did. Unsettling and discouraging that here we are 40 years later in at least two hot wars and who knows how many clandestine ones and the right wing is fighting health care for all?

  10. #10 byte.smasher.myopenid.com
    March 27, 2010

    Something makes me think he probably has heard of Kristallnacht. It really wouldn’t surprise me if someone like him uses the holocaust as a playbook.

  11. #11 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    Great. Another homegrown fascist who has never heard of Kristallnacht.

    I have been trying really really hard to remain an optimist, but these people scare the shit out of me. Where is this anger coming from?

  12. #12 Dahak
    March 27, 2010

    Irony comes in many forms. Just a few days ago I had a public school teacher telling me that government run handout programs weakened America.

  13. #13 Jerry Coyne
    March 27, 2010

    Isn’t it illegal to incite violence against specific individuals?

  14. #14 MAJeff, OM
    March 27, 2010

    I have been trying really really hard to remain an optimist, but these people scare the shit out of me. Where is this anger coming from?

    Thing is, these folks are part of a rather long strand of American politics. Hoffstader described it in The Paranoid Style in American Politics, as did David Bennett in Party of Fear. The Know-Nothings, Klansmen, Coughlinites, McCarthyites, Birchers, Patriot Militias, and Teabaggers are of a kind. It’s always about a perceived loss of what they see as their birthright due to some “other” that is changing the nation. Be it Southern European Catholics or Eastern European Jews or Irish or Blacks or Mexicans or Bolsheviks or Black Helicopters or Kenyan Usurpers….

  15. #15 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    Most of these extreme positions come out of a sense of separateness and uniqueness, when in fact, he is no different from the bleeding heart liberal next door, well maybe in the next state:)

    Please explain this. I don’t remember any liberals seriously advocating overthrowing the government during the Bush years.

  16. #16 blf
    March 27, 2010

    Apropos of nothing much, Kristallnacht was initiated by the ?government? of the time. What this nutter seems to want (judging by what Pee Zed has quoted), is common, garden-variety hooliganism.

  17. #17 https://me.yahoo.com/a/5y0IaMQ2hOAgZ0S2.9n0C2q5uVc-#c5cda
    March 27, 2010

    I’m pretty sure there WILL be a revolution, and when this tiny minority group of delusional losers are defeated. The remainder will continue to be delusional sore losers. And complaining about the bloody mess the democrats left on the streets.

  18. #18 hznfrst
    March 27, 2010

    Advocating this kind of violence exceeds the bounds of free speech, does it not?

  19. #19 Carlie
    March 27, 2010

    these people scare the shit out of me. Where is this anger coming from?

    Here’s an opinion piece in the Times(New York) that addresses that very question.

    “The problem is that the country romanticized by the far right hasn?t existed for some time, and its ability to deny that fact grows more dim every day. President Obama and what he represents has jolted extremists into the present and forced them to confront the future. And it scares them.
    Even the optics must be irritating. A woman (Nancy Pelosi) pushed the health care bill through the House. The bill?s most visible and vocal proponents included a gay man (Barney Frank) and a Jew (Anthony Weiner). And the black man in the White House signed the bill into law. It?s enough to make a good old boy go crazy.”

  20. #20 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    Thanks for the reading suggestions, MAJeff. I recently read The Eliminationists, but if I recall correctly, Niewert didn’t really get into the whys.

    Still worth picking up, though.

  21. #21 mxh
    March 27, 2010

    Most of these extreme positions come out of a sense of separateness and uniqueness, when in fact, he is no different from the bleeding heart liberal next door, well maybe in the next state:)

    I don’t think too many “liberal” acts of civil disobedience called for violence against individual people or armed rebellion. They didn’t regularly go to protests carrying assault rifles. They never sent death threats against the president or others. The few that did were immediately called terrorists, arrested and marginalized by the media. The teabaggers now are praised as “average” americans by the media.

  22. #22 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    Thank you, Carlie! From the link:

    You may want ?your country back,? but you can?t have it. That sound you hear is the relentless, irrepressible march of change. Welcome to America: The Remix.

    Perfect.

  23. #23 CalGeorge
    March 27, 2010

    “Break them with rocks. Break them with slingshots. Break them with baseball bats.”

    Brick manufacturers must not be happy.

    “It is, after all, more humane than shooting them in self defense.”

    Wha? How does one shoot a window in self-defense?

  24. #24 broboxley OT
    March 27, 2010

    why is anyone surprised? Lots of pictures of folks bearing placards declaiming keep “gummint hands off my medicare” no different tham the vid of a woman screaming obama gonna make my car payment. Political stupidity is endemic

  25. #25 Canuck
    March 27, 2010

    This is a Canadian, asking for clarification. Maybe I am mistaken. I do surely hope I am mistaken. All this raving and anger is because the American president has pushed through a law which will ensure that the 30 million people who had no health care will now get it. And that insurance companies will have to take their knocks and continue to cover people who get ill. If I am not wrong, could someone please explain to me how making professional gamblers (insurance corporations) live up to their bets could possibly result in the decline and fall of the American Empire (irony).
    Please?

  26. #26 MAJeff, OM
    March 27, 2010

    why is anyone surprised? Lots of pictures of folks bearing placards declaiming keep “gummint hands off my medicare” no different tham the vid of a woman screaming obama gonna make my car payment. Political stupidity is endemic

    Speaking of which, yesterday Senator Lamar Alexander criticized the federal government for taking over the federal student loan program.

    ?The Democratic majority decided, well look, while we?re at it, let?s have another Washington takeover,? said Senator Lamar Alexander, Republican of Tennessee and a former federal education secretary. ?Let?s take over the federal student loan program.?”

  27. #27 Canuck
    March 27, 2010

    Re” No. 26
    Sorry? Culture shock again. If it’s Federal, isn’t it already the responsibility of the federal government? I know that the woo factor makes people stupid – but . . .

  28. #28 george.wiman
    March 27, 2010

    A surprise that he is living on gub’mint aid? Hardly. No more than the legislators who enjoy government health care, campaigning against it.

  29. #29 rachel.wilmoth
    March 27, 2010

    @ 10: “It really wouldn’t surprise me if someone like him uses the holocaust as a playbook. ”

    It really wouldn’t surprise me if someone like him denies the holocaust even happened (whilst raving about how Obama is a Nazi). But perhaps I’m too cynical.

  30. #30 Antiochus Epimanes
    March 27, 2010

    The NYT piece is off the mark in one respect. The America for which the teabaggers long never really existed in the first place. Its pure, noble, self-reliant white people surrounded by happy, singing minority servants, with everyone prospering while Knowing Their Place, is as much of a fantasy as the Garden of Eden or the Greek Golden Age. It’s a politically useful delusion to which no policy initiative will take us.

  31. #31 Cat's Staff
    March 27, 2010

    He’s just trying to help the economy.

  32. #32 a_ray_in_dilbert_space
    March 27, 2010

    Ourdeadselves asks, “I have been trying really really hard to remain an optimist, but these people scare the shit out of me. Where is this anger coming from?”

    Have you ever tried talking to them? Seriously. One of my hobbies is collecting rocks. Surprisingly, this is not a hobby that attracts a lot of scientists (although my scientific training certainly enhances my enjoyment of it). In fact, most rockhounds are pretty blue collar. The thing is, these guys are smart enough to know they are being screwed. They see that every year they are losing ground. And at the same time, we’re producing more billionaires and millionaires than ever.

    If you look at the data, it’s clear that the middle class and poor started losing ground with the Reagan administration and it’s only gotten worse ever since. We now have a distribution of wealth akin to developing rather than industrialized nations. However, if your primary information source is Faux News, you aren’t going to hear that. So they know something is wrong–they just have no idea what it is, and they are looking for targets.

    What we see is the natural reaction of an uninformed citizenry living in a kleptocracy. In this case, since it isn’t the government doing the stealing, but rather the rich buying off the government so it will continue to allow them to steal, government is an easy target.

    I keep hoping people will see reason and understand what is really happening, but I don’t see it happening before we see tragic consequences.

  33. #33 Colin
    March 27, 2010

    @4 (Carlie)

    …with making death treats…

    I know it’s a typo, but it made me think of a funeral with a large table piled high with neatly wrapped death treats.

  34. #34 mumonjmk
    March 27, 2010

    PZ:

    As I noted on my blog, these people are driven by fear, because the demagogues feeding them know that fear overrides the rational part of the brain.

    We need to of course, put the certifiably violent crazies in places where they can become safe and sane, but we who must walk among the teabaggers must also develop skillful means to help them not be afraid, and we need to have those means widely taught so as to prevent demagogues from having society behave like lemmings allegedly do when confronted with cliffs (which I understand is actually false).

  35. #35 Aquaria
    March 27, 2010

    The problem is that the country romanticized by the far right hasn?t existed for some time

    As usual, the NYT is a bunch of numbskulls.

    The Ozzie and Harriet fantasyland of the wingnuts was enjoyed by a precious few Anglos. Everyone else, life was not very good.

  36. #36 Akira MacKenzie
    March 27, 2010

    So, if you wish to send a message that Pelosi and her party cannot fail to hear, break their windows.

    So much for the sanctity of “property rights.”

  37. #37 MolBio
    March 27, 2010

    @32

    You’re dead on right.

    I may be an Australian, but I was involved in a political party which has been taken over by this same class of nutcase.

    They’re part of the cult of the free-market. The “invisible hand” is almost a deity which will solve everything for them.

    They think that abolishing minimum wage will increase living standards because people will work more and productivity will increase. Or, there will be more people in positions making more money, and trickle down economics will make us all better off.

    They convince average people to think that they were millionaires, therefore make them identify with the people who stand to most gain from these reforms. It’s amazing how with the right non-existent carrot you can make people vocally attack their own interests.

  38. #38 Rift
    March 27, 2010

    Okay, this guy is a dangerous nuts and the fact he is on disability and is reacting this way is nuts.

    But I take offense at some of the comments about disabiliy. I am disabled. I am not unemployed, I am unabled to work, unemployed means you can work but aren’t working. I am under several doctors orders not to work, I find it frustrating when somebody calls me ‘unemployed’ as if I’m some lazy loser. I would trade my medical disability to be able to work the dirtiest job on ‘Dirty Job’, I want to work desperately but am unable to. I am on disability for a reason.

    I find that type of thinking is discriminating of me because I’m too sick to work through no fault of my own. I was never able to work much and I am getting adult survivor benifts off of my late father’s socical security account who paid into it his entire working life, but died at the age of 47 and never got the benift from it.

    I am glad we have a government that provides for its own in situations like mine. This guy gives people on disability a bad name and we are running up against enough stigma as it is.

  39. #39 raven
    March 27, 2010

    Well at least no one has hijacked a plane and suicided into a building like those Moslems did in NYC.

    Oh wait, didn’t someone just fly a plane into an IRS building in Texas? OK, bad example.

    RICHARD POPLAWSKI, Pittsburgh Gunman, Kills 3 Police OfficersApr 4, 2009 … Poplawski had feared “the Obama gun ban that’s on the way” and “didn’t like … 3 Officers Fatally Shot, 2 Injured In Pittsburgh Shooting . …
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…/police-several-pa-officer_n_183130.html – Cached – Similar

    The Reich wingnuts do occasionally get violent. Who knows how many people they’ve killed this year but it is more than a few.

  40. #40 ckitching
    March 27, 2010

    @#39,
    Sure, but those people aren’t Terrorists. Everyone knows that Terrorists have brown skin and scream about Allah. Americans can’t be Terrorists unless they’re originally from one of those other countries. Those are simply criminals… if they get caught.

    Now, I wish this was all hyperbole, but that’s exactly the excuses offered when that plane hit the IRS building. No one wanted to call it terrorism, despite the fact it meets the definition. However, since the pilot wasn’t Muslim, it wasn’t terrorism.

  41. #41 craig.perko
    March 27, 2010

    Re: those that think the left doesn’t incite to violence.

    The reason I was a republican for the first twenty years of my life was because the left-wing democrats were busily tormenting, shooting at, and blowing up scientists, fishermen, and company workers.

    Just because the right has taken up the mantle doesn’t make the left innocent. All political parties – even the small ones – contain violent radicals.

  42. #42 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    Have you ever tried talking to them? Seriously.

    I have and I just can’t wrap my mind around the politics. For instance: guys at work were freaking out before the healthcare bill passed because “OMG! Socialism!” But the funny part is that half of my office simply cannot afford our employer-provided insurance. They would rather go without any sort of insurance, rather than support the government option. I just can’t reason with people who are blind to their own self-interests.

  43. #43 Sili
    March 27, 2010

    Of course, he’s on the dole.

    He wouldn’t have time to rant that much and keep a blog if he had to work for a living.

  44. #44 raven
    March 27, 2010

    The reason I was a republican for the first twenty years of my life was because the left-wing democrats were busily tormenting, shooting at, and blowing up scientists, fishermen, and company workers.

    News to me. Which universe are you posting from?

    Just because the right has taken up the mantle doesn’t make the left innocent.

    We are talking about now, not then. I exist today, not in the past 40 years ago.

    Way to excuse right wing homicide, violence, and terrorism. Oh well, that is why we have police, DAs, laws, courts, and prisons. While you apologize and make excuses for these idiots, the institutions for protecting our society and its members have different ways of dealing with them.

  45. #45 Aquaria
    March 27, 2010

    The reason I was a republican for the first twenty years of my life was because the left-wing democrats were busily tormenting, shooting at, and blowing up scientists, fishermen, and company workers.

    Citation seriously fucking needed for that one.

  46. #46 raven
    March 27, 2010

    because the left-wing democrats were busily tormenting, shooting at, and blowing up scientists, fishermen, and company workers.

    Citation seriously fucking needed for that one.

    Really. As far as I can remember, this never happened. Either the guy is delusional, lying, or posting from another time-space continuum.

    Hey Craig, what color is the sky on your planet?

  47. #47 Gyeong Hwa Pak, Scholar of Shen Zhou
    March 27, 2010

    Citation seriously fucking needed for that one.

    But this is the right! They don’t need citation. OR facts for that matter.

  48. #48 refrigeratorjesus
    March 27, 2010

    Get out of my gene pool!

  49. #49 Nineveh
    March 27, 2010

    “defending ourselves at the muzzle of a rifle unnecessary” against what?

    I still do not understand how health insurance companies being forced to cover pre-existing conditions and not capping lifetime benefits is in anyway infringing on our civil liberties.

    I can still say “fuck the government”, right? Like, I can still say “GO TO HELL MR. PRESIDENT!” and no black helicopters will surround me, right? I can still officially start my own political party tomorrow, gather 10,000 signatures, and run for Congress, right?

    Plus my pre-existing conditions are now covered?

    Yay America.

  50. #50 craig.perko
    March 27, 2010

    Admittedly, I was very young, but don’t go nuts without looking into things. At the time, I did not distinguish between “democrat” and any other left wing organization.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenpeace
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_violence
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals

    At the time, the media I was exposed to was filled with stories of anti-whalers, “animal rights” terrorists, corrupt unions, and “peaceful” campus protests that would invariably turn violent.

    Nowadays we seem to associate violence with right wingers. I don’t think “right wingers” are the ones who blow up animal research facilities.

    Now, what planet are you from? Where are your counter-citations?

    Oh, I forgot, you’re from another space-time continuum where violence and communism where never associated!

  51. #51 blf
    March 27, 2010
    because the left-wing democrats were busily tormenting, shooting at, and blowing up scientists, fishermen, and company workers.

    Citation seriously fucking needed for that one.

    Indeed! Speculating, craig.perko has confused/conflated the antics of nutters like the SLA, the Weathermen, et al., with ?left-wing? and/or ?democrat?.

  52. #52 abelundercity
    March 27, 2010

    I can still say “fuck the government”, right? Like, I can still say “GO TO HELL MR. PRESIDENT!” and no black helicopters will surround me, right? I can still officially start my own political party tomorrow, gather 10,000 signatures, and run for Congress, right?

    Only until a Republican returns to the White House (hopefully no time soon), at which point you become a Commie Mutant Traitor.

  53. #53 craig.perko
    March 27, 2010

    Oh, uh, didn’t see Raven’s earlier post: I’m definitely not excusing anyone, and I’m certainly not an apologist. I find myself put in the unhappy position of “defending the right”, and I would rather be stabbing myself with a fork.

    But everyone’s a human, and don’t pretend that one side is magically pure while the other side is entirely sleaze.

  54. #54 JeffreyD
    March 27, 2010

    A lot of the wannabe “freedom fighters” are deluded that all they have to do is wave a deer rifle and Obama will scurry back to Chicago, or Kenya. Like the Red State people who wanted to organize in military style units to stand up to the ebil O’Muslim (how did that work out, btw?), they live 24/7 in a fantasy world. The letter below is something a lot more of them need to read. Now, when I get a moron-o-gram from a relative I send this piece back to them. So far the silence of the responses has been deafening. Worth the read.

    http://christopher-calbat.newsvine.com/_news/2010/03/26/4073188-an-article-i-wish-i-would-never-have-to-write-to-those-calling-for-a-civil-war-this-marine-wants-you-to-stop-and-think

    I remember my oath to the US Constitution and the line about defending from enemies foreign and domestic. Firmly believe that most active duty and vets will live up to that oath. If push really comes to shove, which I doubt, a lot of chicken hawks are going to be in for a hell of a surprise. More likely will be a string of killings by one or two groups/people. That will be horrendous and should be prosecuted with all possible force. However, I think it will turn a lot of the normal people of America against extremism out of shock. Right wing militias and extremist groups did decline in the wake of Oklahoma City – I just hope it does not get that deadly again before the nuts are defanged.

    Rant off, down from soapbox.

  55. #55 Free Lunch
    March 27, 2010

    OF course he has to be on the dole because his fellow libertarians would never give up their money to keep him alive.

  56. #56 Gyeong Hwa Pak, Scholar of Shen Zhou
    March 27, 2010

    Ah, another nutter who confuse ridicule for oppression because he doesn’t realize what free speech entails. Otherwise he wouldn’t have post this statement:

    I can still say “fuck the government”, right? Like, I can still say “GO TO HELL MR. PRESIDENT!” and no black helicopters will surround me, right? I can still officially start my own political party tomorrow, gather 10,000 signatures, and run for Congress, right?

  57. #57 raven
    March 27, 2010

    craig the nutcase:

    Oh, I forgot, you’re from another space-time continuum where violence and communism where never associated!

    Oh gee. Now Democrats are Communists. Is that why the Vietnam war was started by Kennedy and escalated by Johnson, both Democrats saving SE Asia from the commies?

    Way to lie and Make Stuff Up.

    Greenpeace and PETA are annoying but they aren’t part of the Democratic party either. Their targets are as likely to be democrats as republicans. You left out the Earth Liberation Front and Earth First. Which is OK, they aren’t Democrats either.

    What I thought. Craig is just another delutional idiot lying.

  58. #58 Rey Fox
    March 27, 2010

    Civil disobedience. Does anyone remember if Thoreau or Gandhi advocated breaking windows?

  59. #59 craig.perko
    March 27, 2010

    Raven: I prefer to think of myself as concentrational rather than dilutional.

    As I said, I was young. Perhaps you remember it differently? Far-left democrats are far-left loonies seemed the same to me.

    Much the same as far-right republicans and far-right loonies are being conflated today.

    I’m very upset that you would dismiss all violence committed by left-wing thinkers as being not affiliated with the left wing, and then conflate all violence committed by right-wing thinkers as being affiliated with the right wing.

    Technically, the freaking tea party people aren’t any more republican than the PETA extremists. Many of them are either theocrats or religious libertarians who are only “republican” because Fox News says so. You want to make the distinction? It’s as clear as “PETA isn’t part of the democratic party”.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement

    Let me get one thing clear: I read this blog because I agree with it. I just don’t like people pretending that only the enemy is violent, only the enemy is bad, only the enemy is capable of being wrong.

  60. #60 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Far-left democrats are far-left loonies seemed the same to me.

    Then you don’t understand things at all. Like a lot of those peaceful campus protests that turned “violent” were essentially police riots, with the police going in and swing clubs at everybody, even if they were moving away. You need to get a grip on reality.

  61. #61 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    The reason I was a republican for the first twenty years of my life was because the left-wing democrats were busily tormenting, shooting at, and blowing up scientists, fishermen, and company workers.

    I do trust you have gone to the FBI with your evidence that one of the major US political parties employed violence.

    Or are you just spouting bollocks ?

  62. #62 craig.perko
    March 27, 2010

    Nerd: Aside from my spelling error, yes, I agree. Most of the student protests I see today that end in violence end in police violence, not student violence.

    However, that was not how it was covered when I was young. At least, not in the media I saw. And given the kinds of students I grew up with, I can’t imagine they were as innocent as you make them out to be. And the students I grew up with were long after the really upset students finished with school, so I imagine they must have been even more aggressive.

    Also, the police generally don’t carry molotov cocktails, so I wonder how those sorts of things showed up without the students planning violence ahead of time.

    It’s easy to think in extremes. The problem is that extremes are so rarely correct outside of science. I believe the police attacked more often than the students, back then, but… images of burning things and broken glass don’t indicate the police. There had to be SOME violent students.

    Anyway, this whole thing has gotten out of hand. Somehow my statement that the left isn’t all daisies and rainbows has become “the left were violent pinheads”, which is not what I intended to say at all.

    These days, I associate more with the atheist/secular humanist side of things than any given political party. Being stuck fighting an emotional post war on a topic I feel no emotion about… I was trying to make a statement about human nature, and ended up stepping on a landmine.

  63. #63 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    craig.perko,

    What said what that one of the major US political parties employed violence. Now maybe that is not what you meant to say, but we are not to blame if you are inarticulate.

    I am more inclined to think you are just a fuckwit.

  64. #64 craig.perko
    March 27, 2010

    Penfold: Ugh, you mean the guys investigating vegetarians as possible terrorists?

    Pretty sure they got being uninformed and over-reactive down better than I do, even if it turns out I’m uninformed and over-reactive. They don’t need my help.

  65. #65 Thunderbird 5
    March 27, 2010

    One more impotent, infantile, hate-amped shit-head outed by a slowish news day. Sweet.

    However, rumour has it that a much broader class of tantrum-throwing mentalists – frustrated that the belief-beggaring hypocrisy of yet another attention-whoring gobshite has been so cruelly exposed – are standing by in solidarity and support to take to the streets for a revenge rampage of knock-down-ginger.

    Reports that they are to team up with the infamous Anti-Socialist Scrumping Sodality were further fueled by a press-release from the managers of the Arch-Confraternity of Altar-Boy Soccer Teams, who pledging their unwavering support of whatever it is the defenestrated deadbeat is pissed-off about in return for the unedited footage of any protest actions by athletic, socially-vulnerable youths in need of personal religious guidance.

    Meanwhile, the offical spokes-scamp of the Confraternity of Churchill-era Comic-Book-Antic Enactmentations has refused to confirm rumours that Vanderboerg has been taken to a secret treehouse after threats from a group of characters from Viz comic.

  66. #66 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    Penfold: Ugh, you mean the guys investigating vegetarians as possible terrorists?

    Pretty sure they got being uninformed and over-reactive down better than I do, even if it turns out I’m uninformed and over-reactive. They don’t need my help.

    So no evidence after all.

    You really are full of shit.

    Fuck of troll.

  67. #67 craig.perko
    March 27, 2010

    Penfold: what said what that I’m a fuckwit. Yes, it’s so hard to make a lexical mistake.

    Conflating a political party with an extremist group is TOTALLY UNKNOWN HERE! Why, we would never call the teabaggers “republicans!” That would be… the same exact mistake.

    You ever done that?

  68. #68 blf
    March 27, 2010

    [A] lot of those peaceful campus protests that turned “violent” were essentially police riots, with the police going in and swing clubs at everybody, even if they were moving away.

    Which still happens: The police in London recently killed a man at a protest . He was walking home from work, passing through the area, and a uniformed officer attacked him from behind. The police at first denied they were involved at all, and then arranged an autopsy with a ?friendly? examiner. It wasn’t until a second autopsy, and the emergence of some video taken of the incident, that the attack was taken seriously.

    Switching gears, a relative of mine once sent me a picture of a USAian police officer in riot gear, dragging along the ground by the hair someone at a environmental protest, with the comment: ?This kind of violent ?stuff? is why I don’t trust the greens.? My reply was: ?The only violence I see is a armed guy with a helmet dragging some along the ground. The armed guy with a helment isn’t a ?green?.?

  69. #69 David Marjanovi?
    March 27, 2010

    They think that abolishing minimum wage will increase living standards because people will work more and productivity will increase.

    <headdesk> They can’t work more, because there isn’t more work.

    The supply of workforce is bigger than the demand. That’s how it is in most countries (perhaps all meanwhile), and that’s how it’s going to stay throughout the foreseeable future. Nobody can work more without someone else working less.

    As I said, I was young. Perhaps you remember it differently? Far-left democrats are far-left loonies seemed the same to me.

    Is there such a thing as a far-left Democrat?

    No, really, is there?

    Both Clintons, Kerry, and Obama would comfortably fit into the conservative party where I come from.

    Does Dennis Kucinich count? I haven’t read his website in detail. Mike Gravel perhaps?

    Much the same as far-right republicans and far-right loonies are being conflated today.

    That’s like conflating Sarah and Palin.

  70. #70 Pareidolius
    March 27, 2010

    Craig,

    I understand that you lived an awful, crushing childhood filled with trauma induced by living in the terrorist-plagued society we called the 70′s.

    I for one remember it vividly. Picture it: Carmel, 1972, my mother and I trying to get from our bullet-riddled Monterey colonial in Hatton Fields down to Monte-Mart at the mouth of the valley. Would we even reach the battered Vista-Cruiser without feeling the searing sting of a sniper’s bullet?

    My mother had fashioned crude body armor for the whole family out of Le Cruset cookware and sailcloth from our beloved Shields 70. That battered beauty, the veteran of so many campaigns against Greenpeace’s sleek frigates, was rotting at the bottom of Stillwater Cove after the Battle of Pebble Beach.

    Had we ever sailed on her without weapons? Had we ever known the simple pleasures of a picnic without a mine detector? Nevermind that though, we had to get to the store to sift through the ransacked aisles for the occasional overlooked Chantrelle, hidden bit of shredded wheat or half-empty bottle of Emerald Dry.

    I don’t know how you made it through those years Craig, the humiliation of the Greenpeace strip searches. The endless hours under naked light bulbs being forced to memorize every word of “Silent Spring” at gunpoint in our “schools”. The makeshift loudspeakers blaring Joan Baez at all hours of the night and day.

    I’m sorry, I have to stop now. The memories! The memories . . .

  71. #71 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    Penfold: what said what that I’m a fuckwit. Yes, it’s so hard to make a lexical mistake.

    Conflating a political party with an extremist group is TOTALLY UNKNOWN HERE! Why, we would never call the teabaggers “republicans!” That would be… the same exact mistake.

    You ever done that?

    No.

    Any other stupid questions ?

  72. #72 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    Is there such a thing as a far-left Democrat?

    I doubt the fuckwit actually knows much about political anywhere else in the world. I have to think what would happen to his brain should he come across a genuinely socialist party, such as are found in Europe.

  73. #73 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    The healthcare reform is really just a totalitarian takeover attempt. There hasn’t even been much of an attempt to hide that fact. At what point is civil disobedience needed to oppose such a thing?

  74. #74 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    The healthcare reform is really just a totalitarian takeover attempt. There hasn’t even been much of an attempt to hide that fact. At what point is civil disobedience needed to oppose such a thing?

    I cannot tell if this is meant to be taken seriously or not.

  75. #75 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    At least, not in the media I saw.

    Oh, the media of the day wouldn’t twist things like Faux News today? One of those riots happened at the University I was attending. The students had taken over the administration building. They were in negotiation with the city police and the university, and were going to stay the night, then surrender. Terms of surrender were in place, including not cutting the long hair of the male protesters. The county sheriff, a conservative idjit, decided to take action on his own, and technically outside of his jurisdiction, since the University was within the city, and went in clubs a swinging about 1 AM. And they gave all the long haired males they arrested terrible haircuts (I saw several). The sheriff was surprised at the political muscle and law suits that came down on him for his “heroic” actions, since many of those arrested had important parents with connections.

    Early in the war, before the media had turned against it, the protesters were made to look deliberately bad.

  76. #76 Carlie
    March 27, 2010

    Rift – I don’t think (I hope) that anyone was conflating his having a disability with a negative thing, but that he is being hypocritical for accepting a government assistance for himself while saying that the world will go to hell if the government assists anyone else.

  77. #77 kiyaroru
    March 27, 2010

    #73
    You used the word “fact” in a way unfamiliar to me.

  78. #78 craig.perko
    March 27, 2010

    Ugh, sorry, I officially apologize. I was attempting to make a small and relatively nonoffensive comment. It’s been radically blown out proportion beyond what I intended. Since I tend to agree with the posters here, I just stepped in with a comment without thinking too hard.

    Obviously, I shouldn’t have. I’ll go back into lurk mode after my beating is done.

    Please be aware, I never intended to make such a big deal out of this. People seem to think I’m saying the left were the destroyers of the planet or something. I wasn’t trying to say anything of that magnitude. I was coming at it from the “secular humanist” viewpoint, and it turns out that a lot of commenters are coming at it from the “democrat” viewpoint. So, I stepped on toes, sorry.

    Matt: You’re too aggressive. My views are very, very similar to PZs, and presumably yours are too. Your ad hominem is really irritating, coming as it does from a “side” I generally consider my own.

  79. #79 craig.perko
    March 27, 2010

    Um, Nerd: That last post of mine wasn’t aimed at you. I think you’re probably right.

    I guess I should go read up more on specific events, rather than going off the media imagery I absorbed as a child. Deconverted to atheism, never thought to re-inspect those old, non-religious memories.

  80. #80 mmelliott01
    March 27, 2010

    Conflating a political party with an extremist group is TOTALLY UNKNOWN HERE! Why, we would never call the teabaggers “republicans!” That would be… the same exact mistake.

    According to a Quinnipiac poll, 74% of Teabaggers are either Republican or lean Republican and 77% voted for John McCain in 2008. Equating the two sounds pretty reasonable to me.

  81. #81 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    Matt: You’re too aggressive. My views are very, very similar to PZs, and presumably yours are too. Your ad hominem is really irritating, coming as it does from a “side” I generally consider my own.

    Learn what ad hominem means you tosser.

    I called you names. That is not an ad hominem attack. I said you what you were saying was bollocks and thus you were a fuckwit. An ad hominem would be saying that you are fuckwit, and thus what you saying is bollocks. I suggest you refrain from accusing people of logical fallacies until you comprehend the difference.

    I am glad you find me irritating. It was my intention.

    You spouted a load of bollocks, and you got called on it. It is still not clear if you just suck at writing and did not mean what you said, or you meant it and wish people would just forget you ever said it.

  82. #82 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    March 27, 2010

    Pareidolius, #70:

    If I weren’t holding on to the sides of my chair, I’d be on the floor. Comedy gold.

  83. #83 Darreth
    March 27, 2010

    Actually, since Vanderboegh acts like and talks like a Nazi, I think he’s definitely heard of Kristallnach.

  84. #84 craig.perko
    March 27, 2010

    Matt: I mean it. I have lots of memories of left-wing violence, and at the time the media I watched conflated it with the “extreme” democrats.

    It’s unclear how close that affiliation actually is, as I am working from biased memories, but there are definitely left-wing terrorist organizations, no matter how loud you shout. PETA and, more recently, the ALF are the biggest and nastiest examples in my life.

    “I doubt the fuckwit actually knows much about political anywhere else in the world. I have to think what would happen to his brain should he come across a genuinely socialist party, such as are found in Europe.”

    Is ad hominem: declaring that I don’t know something because I’m an idiot. But I’m not interested in continuing that argument.

    Can we declare my beating over, please? I want to go back to not hating this site.

  85. #85 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    Actually, since Vanderboegh acts like and talks like a Nazi, I think he’s definitely heard of Kristallnach.

    I think it is 50-50 that he is either a paid up Nazi or so ignorant he knows little of what the Nazis did.

  86. #86 carpenteriam
    March 27, 2010

    Perko, honestly, get a clue. Look at the statements routinely made by elected republicans such as Bachmann, King, Cantor, Boehner, etc. (just to mention the well known ones) They proudly ally themselves with the teabaggers each and every time they open their mouths. They are part and parcel of the terrorist movement known as “The Tea Party”. Republican members of the house went into the Gallery during the vote to wave signs with and encourage the teabaggers. Elected Republicans have routinely spouted eliminationist rhetoric on air. Elected Republicans have fueled the flames by spreading lies about “Death Panels”, abortion funding and socialism. The teabaggers have an entire 24 hour propaganda network devoted to messaging for them. There is absolutely no comparison between today’s teabaggers and the struggles of the sixties and seventies – none.
    Stop with the ridiculous false equivalency.

  87. #87 Darreth
    March 27, 2010

    @#19: vocal proponents included a gay man (Barney Frank)

    Barney is gay AND a Jew!

  88. #88 mmelliott01
    March 27, 2010

    I wasn’t trying to say anything of that magnitude. I was coming at it from the “secular humanist” viewpoint, and it turns out that a lot of commenters are coming at it from the “democrat” viewpoint.

    No, you weren’t. I’d hazard to say that 80% of us here are secular humanists first and Democrats second, if at all. We’d recognize a secular humanist perspective if we saw one. Instead, we saw a bunch of easily-debunked factoids that you quickly backed away from. Why not just admit you posted without thinking and get on with life?

  89. #89 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    No, you weren’t. I’d hazard to say that 80% of us here are secular humanists first and Democrats second, if at all.

    A significant number of us do not live in the US, and are not American.

    I would also venture that a good many of us consider the Democratic party to centrist.

  90. #90 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “I cannot tell if this is meant to be taken seriously or not.”

    Its meant to be taken seriously. For starters utopian eschatologists are always trying on Quixotic power-grabbing attempts. So for example one might think that it would be impossible to set up a world government at a climate conference. Yet someone made the attempt nonetheless.

    And this “health-care” bill has nothing to do with improving health-care and everything to do with grabbing power. So once again, we have to ask when the civil disobedience starts.

    The bill isn’t there to cut costs. It will not cut costs. Its not there to increase choice. It will reduce choice and the people connected with passing it have already opted out.

    In fact its an immensely creative attempt to grab totalitarian power in such a large and diverse nation. How clever it was to grab the power of life and death over the most influential people in the community …. that is to say the elderly.

    Such power-grabbing attempts may always be quixotic. But what if the public is so stupid that they actually succeed?

  91. #91 carpenteriam
    March 27, 2010

    PZ – Could you please add a line of code to your site that will automatically add one of those Terry Gilliam village idiots to every comment made by Graeme Bird? Thank you.

  92. #92 craig.perko
    March 27, 2010

    mmelliott01: I did, and I’ll do it again: I posted without thinking. I just got into the flow of the thread, and people started saying things like “I don’t remember any liberals seriously advocating overthrowing the government during the Bush years.”

    I *do* remember those sorts of people, and that was the point I was trying to make. Evidently, I made it very poorly. I wasn’t trying to change the thread’s topic or counter PZ’s post, I was just trying to address that one small point. Sigh…

    Carpentiam: I was trying to defend a small point with a large one, and it blew up.

    To me, the teabaggers represent the stupidest of today’s political movements, and I can’t say I like defending them. But they are not the Republican party, technically, and neither is Fox News, technically.

    They all work together, but as Matt called me out on earlier: they are not the same organization. So I cannot say that they are Republican in the same way that I cannot say that Greenpeace is Green Party. Even if most of the members are republican (or green party), they are not officially part of the organization.

    Their collusion is clear, but their actions cannot legally be considered to represent the Republican Party itself. Even though, culturally, they obviously are.

    In my youth, there seemed to be a similar situation with left-wing groups. I’m not going to claim that was definitely the case, though, as that was a long time ago and I haven’t done enough recent research to really back that up.

    Even if I had, Matt would beat me up for saying it. *sweat*

  93. #93 mmelliott01
    March 27, 2010

    I would also venture that a good many of us consider the Democratic party to centrist.

    Exactly. I confuse Republicans all the time when I tell them that I dislike Obama or Clinton just as much as they do, but for completely opposite reasons. They can’t get past the assumption that OF COURSE all lefties are brainwashed, adoring slaves to our elected Democratic leaders, incapable of realistically analyzing their actual positions and votes.

    The odd thing is that when they hear that I am far more radical than the people they claim to despise, they usually treat me with MORE respect, not less.

  94. #94 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    And this “health-care” bill has nothing to do with improving health-care and everything to do with grabbing power.

    Ah, a delusional fool. Actually, many of us feel it didn’t go far enough, since there is no public option, or more preferable, total public funding for basic health care.

  95. #95 mmelliott01
    March 27, 2010

    craig.perko:

    The comments are coming in fast and I missed your retraction/apology/whatever you want to call it.

    Your most recent post clarifies your stance significantly. Just remember, the ONLY thing we have to go by is your actual words, and they were not only poorly chosen but eerily similar to bad-faith arguments we fend off regularly. The response you got was inevitable.

  96. #96 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    You are just not up to debate are you?

    If the bill is not to increase choice, not to reduce costs then what is it for?

    We know how to reduce costs in medicine.

    1. You simply hold the firm responsible for quality. And you don’t try and force quality in via requiring everyone to be fully qualified.

    2. You have a two-tier system, and when it comes to working-age people, and those not chronically and terminally ill, you want as much of the money to come from savings. And neither from insurance nor government subsidy.

    Economic law is almost as powerful as anything in science. We know how to make costs go down. Equity in this situation would involve getting rid of the payroll tax.

    Soetoro is clearly trying to both grab power and destroy the Republic any way he can. Let us not forget that his campaign turned down 90 million of government money so that his foreign funding would not be fully audited.

  97. #97 MakeNine
    March 27, 2010

    The big communist government should suspend his disability checks for a month.

  98. #98 craig.perko
    March 27, 2010

    mmelliott01:

    I realize that NOW. I just wish I’d realized it earlier. I’m used to everyone being well aware of my stance (forgot I’m a first time poster here), so I got really sloppy.

  99. #99 mmelliott01
    March 27, 2010

    In my youth, there seemed to be a similar situation with left-wing groups.

    You might want to learn a bit about the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago. The left was in no way equivalent to the Democratic Party.

  100. #100 negentropyeater
    March 27, 2010

    craig.perko,

    Technically, the freaking tea party people aren’t any more republican than the PETA extremists. Many of them are either theocrats or religious libertarians who are only “republican” because Fox News says so. You want to make the distinction? It’s as clear as “PETA isn’t part of the democratic party”.

    Shall we go through a list of prominent republican politicians who have clearly declared their support to the tea party movement ?
    Fuck, let’s start with 4 big ones:

    Sarah Palin Republican VP candidate
    Newt Gingrich Republican Former Speaker of the House
    Ted Perry Gov. of Texas
    Scott Brown
    Republican Senator for Massachussets

    Now name me ONE prominent republican politician who has clearly declared that he is against the tea party movement.
    You won’t find any, because they are all shitting in their pants that doing so might lose them a big chunk of precious votes.

  101. #101 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Graeme Bird #90

    Just because your political masters have told you the Health Reform Law is “socialist” and “totalitarian” doesn’t mean it is. It just means your political masters have managed to brainwash you into believing stupid shit.

  102. #102 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “Carpentiam: I was trying to defend a small point with a large one, and it blew up.
    To me, the teabaggers represent the stupidest of today’s political movements, and I can’t say I like defending them.”

    Why do you say that? So far they have been pretty peaceful in their protests. And pretty intelligent in their criticisms.

    Note that no-one here has even overturned a single argument I have made? Does this make them more or less intelligent then the protestors?

  103. #103 mmelliott01
    March 27, 2010

    craig.perko: So stick around and be yourself. Eventually we will get to know you and we will only pile on when you are really, really wrong-headed. Or we are in a bad mood. Or the moon is in Pisces. Or PZ has a beard. You know, once in a while.

  104. #104 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    I wasn’t talking about Health Reform. As you can see I want health reform myself.

    I was talking about this Bill. Which is manifestly a totalitarian takeover attempt and serves no other rational purpose.

  105. #105 carpenteriam
    March 27, 2010

    @102 “Note that no-one here has even overturned a single argument I have made?”
    Because no one here is going to waste time arguing nonsense. You might as well insist that the planet is a six thousand year old pancake and that the sky is really magenta. Why would anyone waste time arguing with you? You have fecal matter in the brain pan.

  106. #106 craig.perko
    March 27, 2010

    mmelliott01: No, I don’t think so. One of the reasons I have avoided commenting in the past is because of the way posters tend to use straw-man arguments and blow enemy opinions way out of reasonable proportion just to make their targets look stupid. I feel the urge to bite them, even if they are technically on my side. Today just proved that it’s not something I want to try to navigate.

    But I’ll keep reading, I think.

  107. #107 pcarini
    March 27, 2010

    Canuck @ #27 [asking about the student loan program]

    Sorry? Culture shock again. If it’s Federal, isn’t it already the responsibility of the federal government?

    Due to political compromises made somewhere along the line, the lenders were private banks. The federal government was subsidizing banks who lent to students, and was assuming all of the risk from the loans, so it was a big win for the banks. The new plan is to cut out the middleman.

    Rachel Maddow explains it much more clearly than I can. (Skip to about 6:20 in that video)

  108. #108 negentropyeater
    March 27, 2010

    Graeme Bird,

    Note that no-one here has even overturned a single argument I have made

    Because you haven’t made any?

    You use words such as “totalitarian”, “fact”, “argument”, while completely ignoring what they mean.

    No wonder nobody is interested in having a discussion with you, unless you start using words properly and making rational arguments that are well justified and supported with evidence or references, it’ll be a waste of time.

    What you have written so far has little more meaning than “the socialist mystery of the politics of fear represent twice the amount of liberties as Nazi federalists”.
    What do you want to answer to that?

  109. #109 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Graeme Bird #104

    I was talking about this Bill. Which is manifestly a totalitarian takeover attempt and serves no other rational purpose.

    Okay, explain, in detail, how it’s totalitarian, how it’s a takeover attempt, who is doing the takeover, and why we shouldn’t consider you to be a complete fucking idiot?

  110. #110 pcarini
    March 27, 2010

    Cue Graeme Bird tone trolling in 3.. 2.. 1..

  111. #111 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    Graeme Bird,

    History shows that a universal healthcare system both reduces costs and improves outcomes.

    Just look at Europe, and compare that with the US. The US pays more per capita than any other country, and yet it is mid-table in terms of health outcomes. On some measures it is beaten by Cuba.

  112. #112 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    The real intention can be seen in the first draft of what Soetoro and those two terrorists’ sons tried to get across. Not so much with the watered down version. But it doesn’t matter. The watered down version still has enough to continue with the campaign of wrecking the finances of the Republic and splitting the US up by doing so. Its a counterattack to Reagan bankrupting the Soviet Union. Or it can be seen as a mirror image of that likewise successful strategy.

    Further, failing the splitting up of the US, the Bill centralises life and death decisions. Thus putting all the most influential people in society under extreme intimidation.

    You’ve just got to face reality. Soetoro ran a 212 billion dollar deficit in February alone. The economic team he put together were all mad Keynesians with the exception of someone in his 80′s who was really only there for show. These decisions were made with great deliberation and malice afforethought.

    Also Soetoro picked a team of people, the requirements for which were existing political power, and or hard leftist credentials, and-or skeletons in the closet. The ubiquity of scandal in the past of team members serves as protection against his own shady and mysterious past.

    What do God and Obama have in common?

  113. #113 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Note that no-one here has even overturned a single argument I have made?

    Nope, it probably means you are as trolling as the typical liberturd. They are never refuted, no matter how much evidence is presented refuting the totally. You appear to be suffering from the same malady.

  114. #114 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    No the fact is you are just not up to it. You’d be better off going to the mirror now. And admitting to yourself that you just aren’t that bright.

    Can anybody explain the Obama campaign turning down 90 million dollars of government money? How about getting scientific about that?

  115. #115 Mands
    March 27, 2010

    First, some context: I’m Australian.

    I have to say this whole anti-healthcare thing really confuses me. Surely a society choosing to implement a universal health care system is an extremely democratic thing to do? One of the fundamentals of democracy is participation, yes? So surely making sure people are healthy enough to participate is key to a democracy’s success? Why does the US seem to have such a big movement of people who seem to want to deny people the chance to participate?

    I’m so confused. And really, I’m not being fascetious. The social problems that are created by people not being able to participate (and here I mean that broadly, not just voting but education, employment, etc.) are so great – violence, crime, an underclass with massive endemic problems – are so horrid and effect the whole of that society so negatively that I really don’t get why the middle classes would want to deny health care, one of the most basic remedies to these problems.

    Honestly, why do such a large group of Americans seem to believe that it’s not for a society to decide to protect their most vulnerable members through the use of the government that they ultimately control? I truely believe this is a
    very important and fundamental part of the role of my government here in Australia. Please, can you help me understand this?

  116. #116 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    Can anyone explain why it was that Soetoro went to Kenya in the middle of his own Presidential campaign. Helped usurp power for Odinga, after stirring up sectarian violence. Turned down 90 million dollars as I said…..

    And can you explain the following without recourse to the fact that Soetoro relied on foreign financing and the obvious implication that he will be doing so again in the future:

    “When Obama met the king of Saudi Arabia, a nation in which no one votes, women are subject to severe and demeaning restrictions and it is against the law to have a Christian church, Obama bowed in deep respect.

    When Obama ran into Venezuela’s murderous despot, Hugo Chavez, at a summit, there was a friendly greeting observed by all.

    But there is one leader whom Obama draws the line at. He will not be seen in public with Israel’s Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. Astonishingly, when Netanyahu saw Obama at the White House this week, all photographers and all TV cameras were banned, a level of humiliation almost completely unique in modern White House practice.”

    All of the above is only consistent with the picture of a man purposefully wrecking things on behalf of foreign sponsors.

    He doesn’t need your vote. He has the foreign money to buy as many votes as he needs. You are not his constituents. His constituents are not US citizens.

  117. #117 maureen.brian#b5c92
    March 27, 2010

    Graeme Bird,

    I do not read every single post here, so I could be wrong, but I do not recall any poster saying that this Bill was perfect, wonderful or even pretty good.

    The consensus would seem to be that it is far from perfect, rather a disappointment but – just – a small step in the right direction.

    As for the power of life and death, that has for decades been exercised by the insurance companies, with no accountability at all. Now they will find it a little more difficult to deny someone an essential test or cut off someone’s chemotherapy half-way through a course of treatment. That was one of the major reasons for reform.

    The other, as I understand it, was that the current system completely failed to deliver. It denied a significant number of people any health care at all until they were on the point of death and worked against the development of good preventive medicine.

    As seen from across an ocean, the delivery model had quite simply failed to keep up with the changes in medicine, surgery, testing and a million other possibilities. It was more suited to about 1850 when there was not a lot that doctors could actually do in most cases.

    Before you post again you might want to work out how other countries manage to spend about half what the US does and, with the odd hiccup, still get more bang for their buck.

    Oh, and instead of dealing in generalities or propaganda do tell us in precise terms what you lost when President Obama signed the Bill the other day.

    Anxious readers want to know.

  118. #118 Kristjan Wager
    March 27, 2010

    Can anyone explain why it was that Soetoro went to Kenya in the middle of his own Presidential campaign. Helped usurp power for Odinga, after stirring up sectarian violence. Turned down 90 million dollars as I said…..

    Citation needed.

  119. #119 pcarini
    March 27, 2010

    Graeme Bird @ 112:

    Further, failing the splitting up of the US, the Bill centralises life and death decisions. Thus putting all the most influential people in society under extreme intimidation.

    This is a claim that would be possible to back up with evidence, if such existed…

    Here is the text of HR 3590, The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

    Here is the text of HR 4872, the reconciliation bill.

    Back up your claim above, using the language from from the bills, or retract it.

  120. #120 Zabinatrix
    March 27, 2010

    Matt Penfold:

    Just look at Europe, and compare that with the US. The US pays more per capita than any other country, and yet it is mid-table in terms of health outcomes. On some measures it is beaten by Cuba.

    As a non-American this is something blatantly obvious to me, and I do know that quite a few Americans realize it too. But to me it really seems like all too many Americans are completely blind to what life is like in the “outside world.”

    How many times have I heard Americans say that any kind of socialization of health care will invariably lead to death, destruction and the general collapse of society? Some don’t seem to realize that most of the richer countries of the world function quite successfully with all the socialization that they so fear. It is trivially true that things like that do not necessarily lead to the downfall of civilization.

    And I really don’t understand all this “death panel” talk. Graeme Bird talks incessantly about “putting all the most influential people in society under extreme intimidation” – but how do people imagine that working?

    Will Obama stand at a pulpit and say to the nation “Come now, vote for me, do my bidding, or I’ll have my evil health care cronies pull the plug on you!” I don’t think the rest of the nation would follow him in that case, and I don’t see how any more subtle intimidation would work… It’s not like the democrats could covertly do a major operation to find out the political views of patients and kill the unwanted. It really wouldn’t be possible to do such a thing without all the medical professionals with a conscience leaking the story to the press.

    So, how do people like Bird envision this “extreme intimidation” to work out for anyone? What would Obama (or whatever evil force he sees behind all this) stand to gain personally from making a “totalitarian” health care system? I must be missing something, because I don’t get it…

  121. #121 Kristjan Wager
    March 27, 2010

    And Graeme Bird, you have yet to provide any facts backing up your claims about the health care bill being totalitarian. Not surprising, since it’s complete and utter nonsense, but that’s not surprising, coming from you.

  122. #122 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    Not only is the Bill not any good. It serves no other purpose but to usurp power. No health savings accounts. No being able to pay your health bills out of your 401k’s. Nothing that would work to bring down costs, increase innovation or that would serve any purpose whatsoever relating to improving the health system.

    Health Care reform is okay. This bill is not Okay. There is a difference. I don’t know how you guys could have got sucked into this. You’ve been had by a prize conman. It may be painfull to have to admit you’ve been taken in. But there you are.

  123. #123 pcarini
    March 27, 2010

    @ my #119:

    D’oh my bad! My link to HR 4872 contained only the most recent changes to it, after it came back from the senate. Here is the document my link above modifies:

    HR 4872

    I should also warn people ahead of time, these are PDFs.

  124. #124 Pierce R. Butler
    March 27, 2010

    Talking Points Memo has a tidy little summary, with links, of the vandalism, threats, and other crimes erupting after the passage of health care reform (including a few, omigod, happening to Republicans!!1!).

  125. #125 Epikt
    March 27, 2010

    craig.perko

    Nerd: Aside from my spelling error, yes, I agree. Most of the student protests I see today that end in violence end in police violence, not student violence. However, that was not how it was covered when I was young. At least, not in the media I saw

    I know exactly what you mean. A liberal friend of mine at Kent State violently attacked an innocent bullet with his body.

  126. #126 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “Citation needed.”

    Why. Didn’t you catch the rioting at the time? You do know that before he went there Kenya was known as one of the most successful and least violent nations in Africa? You did know that right? So it certainly came as a surprise to me when the killing started.

    At the time the excuse for Obama abandoning his own campaign was that Odinga was a cousin of his. This was just another lie. And so we see from the incident who his real constituents are. They are not American.

    A fellow who runs a 212 billion dollar deficit in February alone is not turning down 90 million in public money for his campaign as a conscience thing.

    Science is somewhat about reconciling at first surprising and seemingly unreconcilable facts.

    So how do you reconcile the facts I’m bringing to you? Try applying the scientific method. What could explain this. Your alleged President is a traitor.

  127. #127 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Mr. Bird is another liberturd/Right Wing idjit. Emphasis on idjit turd. Better known as a jingoist, unable to show original or cogent thought. And no idea what real liberals, and not his strawman liberals, want.

  128. #128 jcmartz.myopenid.com
    March 27, 2010

    Vanderboegh is a pretentious thug, but here’s the surprise. The gun-totin’ proud “Son of Liberty” who rails against big government and hates socialism is unemployed and living off his government disability checks.

    That reminds me: tell the government to keep its hands off my medicare!

  129. #129 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “History shows that a universal healthcare system both reduces costs and improves outcomes.”

    This is not really true. But on the other hand there is just enough in it to make it a viable belief.

    Supposing you were right? It would not be relevant. Since the Bill that has just passed is designed to do neither. But only to take power.

    The way to cut costs is to bring up the percentage of user pays and reduce credentialism, leaving the firm responsible for quality. So we have the example of the Swiss versus the American system. Most other comparisons in Europe are to do with vastly inferior systems to the American one, even if very much cheaper systems.

    Note the case of plastic surgery. Cost-effectiveness improves all the time. Since this type of surgery tends neither to be paid from insurance nor from subsidy.

    The bill was passed on the heels of the knowledge that you ran a 212 billion dollar deficit in February. You people are bankrupt and you face the imminent collapse of your union. Did you know that?

  130. #130 pcarini
    March 27, 2010

    So how do you reconcile the facts I’m bringing to you? Try applying the scientific method. What could explain this. Your alleged President is a traitor.

    The scientific method involves backing up your claims. Are you going to respond to my #119?

    As for turning down the public campaign financing, that was because using the public financing would have limited his campaign to $84.1 Mil between August and November (cite below). Instead his campaign raised $650 Mil from private donations. Seems like a pretty smart bet on their part.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_presidential_campaign,_2008#Fundraising

  131. #131 Michelle B
    March 27, 2010

    My oh my, what a narcissistic and mind numbingly boring dipshit G. Bird is. NPD anyone?

  132. #132 Sisyphus
    March 27, 2010

    So amused by the hypocrisy of this man. I think that if anyone breaks a window and says they did it because of his rantings the money to fix the window(s) should come out of his disability cheque.

    Someone should do a study of the teabaggers, see just how many of them are on the dole.

  133. #133 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    I really love all of the doom-and-gloom (or sturm-und-drang, if you’re feeling dramatic) surrounding the health care bill.

    Really guys? It’s the end of the US as we know it because of one fucking piece of legislation? A piece of legislation that doesn’t even provide a government opt-in provision will surpass the Constitution and make us all freedomless slaves? You can’t seriously believe that.

    Totally explains why Europe is such a third-world shit hole, though. /sarcasm

  134. #134 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    This is not really true. But on the other hand there is just enough in it to make it a viable belief.

    Well it is only not true if you ignore evidence.

    The way to cut costs is to bring up the percentage of user pays and reduce credentialism, leaving the firm responsible for quality. So we have the example of the Swiss versus the American system. Most other comparisons in Europe are to do with vastly inferior systems to the American one, even if very much cheaper systems.

    Most systems in Europe are superior, in that healthcare is both cheaper and better. I can only assume you are using a definition of superior until now unknown.

    Note the case of plastic surgery. Cost-effectiveness improves all the time. Since this type of surgery tends neither to be paid from insurance nor from subsidy.

    In Europe there is a considerable amount of plastic surgery that is funded by universal healthcare. In fact the field was pioneered using public funds in the UK. Are you sure you are not confusing plastic surgery with cosmetic surgery ? There is a significant difference. I will give you hint: Plastic surgery to restore function to hands scarred by burns is not the same as a boob job.

  135. #135 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    The scientific method involves reconciling facts. My hypothesis can explain them. Yours cannot. Of course I’m not able to investigate matters to the point of convergent evidence so striking it would amount to proof in some absolutist sense. The best I can do is to show that the hypothesis that he is a foreign-financed traitor is far superior to alternative explanations for very consistent behaviour. Actually the conclusion is obvious. As attempts to supply alternative hypotheses will reveal if they are so attempted.

    Since there is no burden of proof nor any null hypothesis then that ought to be good enough. He has to be considered a foreign-backed traitor from here on in, now that the evidence for this is superior. Beating out all other hypotheses. Or so it would seem. One doesn’t want the best hypothesis by default alone.

  136. #136 Jason A.
    March 27, 2010

    Anatomy of a Graeme Bird post:

    Conspiracy theory
    Assertion that everyone is blind and should be ashamed
    Vague hints at more conspiracy
    Declaration that he is the one to see the truth

  137. #137 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “Most systems in Europe are superior, in that healthcare is both cheaper and better. I can only assume you are using a definition of superior until now unknown.”

    No you are wrong. For example in Britain you have all these waiting lists. Your system is far better, although much more expensive.

  138. #138 Carlie
    March 27, 2010

    Since there is no burden of proof nor any null hypothesis then that ought to be good enough. He has to be considered a foreign-backed traitor from here on in, now that the evidence for this is superior. Beating out all other hypotheses.

    Logical conclusion:ur doin it wrong.

  139. #139 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    The real intention can be seen in the first draft of what Soetoro and those two terrorists’ sons tried to get across.

    When the looneytarian asshole doesn’t even call his country’s president by his real name then we know the looneytarian asshole is just a looneytarian asshole.

  140. #140 Jason A.
    March 27, 2010

    The scientific method involves reconciling facts. My hypothesis can explain them. Yours cannot.

    Yes, conspiracy theories usually are quite good at that. You should see some of the connections they draw between the Washington street layout, the Freemasons, and the Knights Templar!

  141. #141 negentropyeater
    March 27, 2010

    Mands #115,

    Honestly, why do such a large group of Americans seem to believe that it’s not for a society to decide to protect their most vulnerable members through the use of the government that they ultimately control?

    “Because if these people are poor and vulnerable, it’s their own fault, and it’s not written in the bible that healthcare is a god given right.”

    If the person isn’t a christian fundie loon but more generally a libertarian loon, replace “bible” with “constitution”.

    That’s the logic of these folks, from Glenn Beck to Graeme Bird.

  142. #142 JeffreyD
    March 27, 2010

    Graeme Bird – you spell Black with a double g in the middle, do you not? I doubt anyone will engage you in a serious manner as most will notice that you are just a rabble rousing birther troll with delusions of adequacy. Making up facts may work with the other loons with whom you trace conspiracies, but most people here do require a few more facts. Why not crawl back over to Red State and whine with your fellow troglodytes about the ebil muslin man who got uppity and usurped power by obtaining a majority in a free and reasonably clean election and then passed HCR by a majority using an old, legal, and tested method (extensively used by the Reptile party) called reconciliation?

    I will pray for you.

  143. #143 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “Really guys? It’s the end of the US as we know it because of one fucking piece of legislation?”

    1. Yes really this is the end of the US as you know it.

    2. No not because of one piece of legislation. Soetoro’s behaviour implies that he will bankrupt the US any way he can. Or alternatively turn it into a dictatorship.

    Not unlike the Reagan strategy of bankrupting the Soviet Union and getting it to split up, or alternatively forcing them to knock out many thousands of the most dangerous nukes and bringing the conflict to a close.

    You ought to try and deduce the strategy from the concrete small steps he has taken and tried to take.

    Who do you think will be willing to pay for this health care system? You won’t be paying? Do you expect the poor Chinese people to pay for it?

  144. #144 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    No you are wrong. For example in Britain you have all these waiting lists. Your system is far better, although much more expensive.

    The NHS, in England, using 2008/2009 figures costs less than £2000 per person.

    As for waiting lists, I would suggest you acquainted you self with the evidence. There was a problem with waiting lists, but they are no longer an issue. If you want to participate in discussion on healthcare then you must make sure you use correct data, and do not make up facts.

    I am just wasting by breathe though. You do not seem to be sane.

  145. #145 Jason A.
    March 27, 2010

    Since there is no burden of proof nor any null hypothesis then that ought to be good enough.

    lolwut?

  146. #146 Eidolon
    March 27, 2010

    Craig:
    I think you are missing one important difference – while there were some small violent groups in the 60′s, the Democratic party wanted nothing to do with them. Like in Chicago. Now consider the Tea Party members and their actions. What we see are folks like the RNC chairman supporting the stance of this group. Ditto for the dittoheads and the defacto leader of the Rethugs, Rush. Absent has been any meaningful or broad rejection of the stance of these extreme folks by the Repubs. Sorta like the darling of this group, Sarah Barracuda and her silence when there were calls to kill Obama at some of her speeches. The Repubs want to siphon off and channel all that passion to their own ends, thus the linkage.

  147. #147 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    My hypothesis can explain them.

    News flash idjit. Politics ain’t science, and GIGO rules with your hypothesis. GARBAGE. Attempting to put non-science in scientific terms shows your lack of cogency. That makes everything you say subject to verification, and you appear to lack even basic evidence for your inane grunts.

  148. #148 Samantha
    March 27, 2010

    No you are wrong. For example in Britain you have all these waiting lists. Your system is far better, although much more expensive.

    So what you’re saying is that it’s better to pay out the nose for insurance and still not even be sure that you can get the necessary treatment because the insurance company might tell you that they won’t pay for it because your waiting time might be a wee bit shorter (for non-essential services only)?

    I can’t speak to Britain’s system, but in Canada waiting times for essential services seem to be the same as those in the US. My brother has gone into the emergency room twice. The first time, he was seen immediately because he was vomiting blood. Within two hours, he had been diagnosed with cancer and was being air-lifted to our local hospital. The second time he went into the ER, he waited all of fifteen minutes to be seen, had all the blood draws and tests done within two hours and was admitted and put into a room within six. He came in because he was dizzy and losing track of time. None of those are particularly long wait times. Yes, I have to book my physical exams a month in advance, but that’s not essential, not terribly important and I would love to know what comparable wait times for Americans are because I can’t imagine that they’re much better.

  149. #149 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    Who the fuck is this Soetoro Bird keeps crapping on about ?

  150. #150 negentropyeater
    March 27, 2010

    TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

    There is no point discussing with this odious troll Graeme Bird.

    Anybody who claims “Reagan had a strategy of bankrupting the Soviet Union” is rewriting history as suits him and it’s IMHO a total waste of time engaging with him.

  151. #151 craig.perko
    March 27, 2010

    Eidolon: Yeah, it’s becoming clear that I was misinformed when I was young, and never noticed it. I am now very, very angry. I’ll be reading up on it, I promise.

    Now, I think I’m done monitoring this thread. It’s become about a common thorn, so I think it’s done with me.

  152. #152 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “When the looneytarian asshole doesn’t even call his country’s president by his real name then we know the looneytarian asshole is just a looneytarian asshole.”

    I’m trying to be scientific and objective. Hence I’m calling Soetoro by his last legally known name. If you can tell me the date he changed his name from Barry Soetoro do let me know. This is his last known legal name. I suggest you call him by that name as well.

    You claim that he is your country’s President. This is something you cannot possibly know for sure one way or another. I don’t know this for sure. So I don’t see how you can. The Catholic church has had many anti-Popes. Most determined as such only after the fact. If you were to stay the US and not become Barryland, or Cook County and surrounding districts, then you may one day recognize Caliph Barry as your first usurper-President. Like I say. I’m not in a position to know. Neither are you.

    “Graeme Bird – you spell Black with a double g in the middle, do you not?”

    Fantastic line. I’m going to steal it and run like a thief in the night. Larry Sinclair assures us that Barry is a white man.

  153. #153 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    Who do you think will be willing to pay for this health care system? You won’t be paying?

    That, you fucking douche canoe, is the fundamental difference between you and me. Of course I would pay for a government option or *gasp!* even single payer. I, unlike you, do not confuse greed with freedom.

    And if you think that you’re not paying for other people’s health care right this very second! then you are way more deluded that I thought.

    Oh and p.s. Could you blockquote or italicize or use fucking quotation marks or something?

  154. #154 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “Anybody who claims “Reagan had a strategy of bankrupting the Soviet Union”

    No that was indeed his strategy. This is just a fact.

  155. #155 Shala
    March 27, 2010

    You claim that he is your country’s President. This is something you cannot possibly know for sure one way or another.

    I know others feel a sense of humor and ridicule when they talk to someone this insane.

    I only feel despair. If anyone would like to volunteer to behead me at the earliest opportunity so I never have to read a statement from a clownshoe like this ever again, I can give you my email.

  156. #156 Kristjan Wager
    March 27, 2010

    The way to cut costs is to bring up the percentage of user pays and reduce credentialism, leaving the firm responsible for quality. So we have the example of the Swiss versus the American system. Most other comparisons in Europe are to do with vastly inferior systems to the American one, even if very much cheaper systems.

    It so happens that I looked into the numbers of health care a couple of years ago (before the election of Obama), and they clearly show that the US pays more for healthcare and get less for the money than other countries.

    In other words, you’re wrong, and the numbers shows this.

    So how do you reconcile the facts I’m bringing to you? Try applying the scientific method. What could explain this. Your alleged President is a traitor.

    You wouldn’t recognize the scientific method if it jumped up and bit you in the ass. Also, you’re so moronic that you don’t realize that Obama isn’t the president of many of the commenters here (myself included).

    Your claims about Obama’s role in Kenya are variations over debunked claims, and unless you can provide evidence for your claims, they can be rejected out of hand. A hint: claiming that it is so, is not evidence. Nor is repeating rumors.

    Your claims about Obama being a traitor are so stupid that they are not worth spending time on.

  157. #157 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    Oh, my bad. Bird did use fucking quotation marks.

  158. #158 MAJeff, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Damn, I lay down for a nap and a real-life birther shows up. Move very slowly folks, they spook easily.

  159. #159 maureen.brian#b5c92
    March 27, 2010

    Hey, BirdBrain!

    We used to have waiting lists when Reagan’s little friend Thatcher was trying to reduce the NHS to a fourth-rate service to mop up those she regarded as fourth-rate people. We don’t any more.

    You want evidence? Lynna OM and I each had a TIA within the last year. She had a lot of worry, waiting, embarrassed requests for financial help – gladly given – but though much better she still hasn’t had all the medically indicated tests.

    I saw my doctor within 2 days and was told off for not calling him out but waiting until I was well enough to walk to his office, started treatment that day, saw the consultant a week later, had all the tests deemed necessary, am now established on a diet and assorted medicines – and money was never mentioned.

    Out here in the civilised world – of which you seem to have little grasp – medical decisions are made by doctors and patients in consultation, not by fucking accountants or pen-pushers who have targets of refusals to meet so they get their bonus.

    Anyway, how is death by accountant somehow more moral than death by waiting list? At least the person who used to put you on the waiting list had the balls to say it to your face.

  160. #160 pcarini
    March 27, 2010

    I’m trying to be scientific and objective. Hence I’m calling Soetoro by his last legally known name.

    [Citation Needed]

    Again, the scientific method involves backing up your claims. Simply asserting them as fact isn’t quite the same thing.

    While we’re at it, care to answer my #119, or will you withdraw the claim? This is how people scientifically and objectively discuss empirical claims.

  161. #161 Rey Fox
    March 27, 2010

    Who the hell is Soetoro? (quick Google later) Oh, he’s Obama, apparently. Yep, we have a certifiable loony here.

  162. #162 MAJeff, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Yes, conspiracy theories usually are quite good at that. You should see some of the connections they draw between the Washington street layout, the Freemasons, and the Knights Templar!

    You forgot the Elders of Zion and the International Homosexual Movement.

  163. #163 Kristjan Wager
    March 27, 2010

    You claim that he is your country’s President. This is something you cannot possibly know for sure one way or another.

    I beg to differ

  164. #164 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    Who the hell is Soetoro? (quick Google later) Oh, he’s Obama, apparently. Yep, we have a certifiable loony here.

    Thanks. I thought it might be, but then since Obama’s name is Obama not Soetoro there was some doubt.

    How thick do you have to be not to know Obama’s name ?

  165. #165 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    The fact is you cannot know that Shala. Because he will not prove that Shala.

    Our dead selves. You will not be paying for this healthcare system. You won’t. You don’t have the money for it. You will not be making up that 212 billion dollar PER MONTH deficit, and the interest, and the payments needed for the retirement of the baby boomers, and the payment of another 1 trillion dollar spending program on top of all that.

    Just get away from this delusion that you Americans can pay your bills. This is a delusion. You cannot do it. You won’t be doing it. Who do you expect will do it? Chinese going to keep buying your bonds? Will the Chinese pay for your medical costs?

    We don’t seem to have anyone here willing to face even the most uncontroversial fact.

  166. #166 negentropyeater
    March 27, 2010

    Who the fuck is this Soetoro Bird keeps crapping on about ?

    Barry Soetoro, code name for Barack Obama given by birthers such as Orly Taitz and this total troll Birther Bird.

  167. #167 Matt Penfold
    March 27, 2010

    Does anyone have any idea where the moron called Graeme Bird lives, and why the fuck he should be so concerned about US Healthcare and Obama when he does not seem to be American ?

  168. #168 negentropyeater
    March 27, 2010

    Birther Bird,

    why don’t you just shut the fuck up and go away?

  169. #169 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    I see no evidence will be forthcoming from this idjitturd. To killfile or not to killfile, that is the question. Maybe PZ will do us a favor and ban him for insipidity. They don’t get much stoooopider….

  170. #170 Eidolon
    March 27, 2010

    Matt @ 149:

    I finally got the answer…this is a new thread of the birther tapestry. Soreto was Obama’s step fater. Much is made of the fact that he never went by his step fater’s last name; just the one on his birth certificate.

    Check this snopes link:

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/occidental.asp

  171. #171 JeffreyD
    March 27, 2010

    Oh goodie, a glue sniffer is going to use one of my lines, I am moist with delight.

    OK, GB, go upstairs and have your momma make you a toaster pizza and a glass of Ovaltine.

    For my next trick, Killfile meet GB, GB meet Killfile.

  172. #172 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    Barry Soetoro is his last known legal name. If you think otherwise you can tell me the exact date he changed his name and I’ll stand corrected. But you cannot do that. Because his name is Barry.

    “As for waiting lists, I would suggest you acquainted you self with the evidence. There was a problem with waiting lists, but they are no longer an issue.”

    I suspect you are lying. When do you imagine that the waiting lists were cleared. In any case, your system is superior. There’s is cheaper. Even by your own admission this is the case, since you are not claiming that the British system is of higher quality.

  173. #173 Kristjan Wager
    March 27, 2010

    Related to the blogpost – have people seen this NY Times article?

    With No Job, Plenty of Time for Tea Party

    Irony is indeed dead.

  174. #174 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    Goodness me Matt. Here you are pretending to be an up-to-date expert on the British health system. And you don’t even know this fellow’s last known legal name?

  175. #175 pcarini
    March 27, 2010

    Barry Soetoro is his last known legal name. If you think otherwise you can tell me the exact date he changed his name and I’ll stand corrected. But you cannot do that. Because his name is Barry.

    Obama’s Birth Certificate

    Show me a legal document stating otherwise, or withdraw your claim.

  176. #176 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    I’d mention that Barack Hussein Obama II is the name given on his birth certificate but that won’t sway the looneytarian asshole. He’s a birther and “thinks” Obama’s birth certificate is a forgery.

  177. #177 blf
    March 27, 2010

    Bird, try providing some evidence (hyperlinks are best here, but citations to published works are also fine) for at least some of your claims.

  178. #178 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    Okay, GB, I’ll play along.

    If Soertoro is his legal name, then why does his certificate of live birth say otherwise?

    Oh wait, it’s a forgery, right? *snort!*

    You will not be paying for this healthcare system. You won’t. You don’t have the money for it. You will not be making up that 212 billion dollar PER MONTH deficit, and the interest, and the payments needed for the retirement of the baby boomers, and the payment of another 1 trillion dollar spending program on top of all that

    Link, plz.

  179. #179 pcarini
    March 27, 2010

    If you think otherwise you can tell me the exact date he changed his name and I’ll stand corrected.

    While we’re at it, tell me the exact date you stopped beating puppies.

  180. #180 Kristjan Wager
    March 27, 2010

    I suspect you are lying.

    So, in other words, you have no knowledge about the subject you’re spewing comments on? Why am I not surprised.

  181. #181 Epikt
    March 27, 2010

    Graeme Bird:

    Soetoro’s behaviour implies that he will bankrupt the US any way he can. Or alternatively turn it into a dictatorship.

    So tell me, Orly, what’s it like to live in a state of chronic, trembling paranoia?

  182. #182 Shala
    March 27, 2010

    Our dead selves. You will not be paying for this healthcare system. You won’t.

    God damn right I won’t, because I’m not an American you fucking asshole!

    I live in a country that hasn’t collapsed due to (cue buzzwords in scare quotes) “socialist” or “totalarian” universal healthcare.

    Now, with that out of the way, would you kindly shut the fuck up? You’ve supported absolutely none of your statements whatsoever, using ‘hypothesis’ as your incredibly inane opinion.

  183. #183 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    You know so little about this fellow its incredible. For example you didn’t link to a real birth certificate, secondly its true that he is going under his birth name. But thats not his last known legal name.

    “Anyway, how is death by accountant somehow more moral than death by waiting list?”

    Neither is better. Thats why health care reform was important. Rather than a totalitarian takeover attempt and ongoing measures to bankrupt the US.

    You guys do realise you are bankrupt do you not? There seems to be a great many things that have escaped your attention.

    You do at least agree that you are bankrupt. And that you will not be paying for this scam right?

  184. #184 pcarini
    March 27, 2010
    I suspect you are lying.

    So, in other words, you have no knowledge about the subject you’re spewing comments on? Why am I not surprised.

    No you must be lying, because Graeme Bird is Motherfucking Sherlock Holmes and anything he so much as suspects must be true. Without the need for anything as pedestrian as evidence…

  185. #185 Shala
    March 27, 2010

    For example you didn’t link to a real birth certificate

    Proof or retract.

  186. #186 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Still no evidence from the liberturd/conspiracy theorist. I wonder why. Maybe because they live in a closed world of their own paranoia instead of reality, where evidence rules. GB, you had better hide. The black helicopters are on their way…

  187. #187 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “So, in other words, you have no knowledge about the subject you’re spewing comments on? Why am I not surprised.”

    No Matt doesn’t. Matt seems to be relying on a recent spate of articles downplaying the problems with British health specifically in support of passing this new Soetoro scam.

    You’d have to be pretty surprised to find out that these problems have just disappeared. It would have required a real concerted effort to make them just go away.

  188. #188 pcarini
    March 27, 2010

    You guys do realise you are bankrupt do you not?

    And you do realize you’re intellectually bankrupt, do you not?

  189. #189 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    You know so little about this fellow its incredible. For example you didn’t link to a real birth certificate..

    Okay, smart guy, what’s the difference between a birth certificate and a certificate of live birth?

    And how about the birth announcements that were in both Honolulu* newspapers in the days following his birth? Here I’ll provide some handy links for you.

    And I still want a link regarding the costs of healthcare.

    *The first time I typed this I wrote Homolulu, which made me giggle uncontrollably. That’s totally going to be the name of my tiki-themed gay bar.

  190. #190 blf
    March 27, 2010

    You know so little about [President Obama] its [sic] incredible.

    I’ll take projection for the win, please.

  191. #191 Shala
    March 27, 2010

    OurDeadSelves, I don’t think your first link works.

  192. #192 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    What country do you live in Shala? Is it a country with Americas combination of high debts and low savings?

    They will not be paying their bills. So I don’t know who they imagine, in their wildest dreams, will be paying for this new scheme.

    Is anyone aware of the various estimates of the net present value of Americas unfunded liabilities?

    Last I heard it was at least 60 trillion and rising. They will not be paying. This is just a fact. Things that cannot happen tend not to happen. So how will this be resolved? Most likely with the dissolution of the Union.

  193. #193 Ulgaa Nator
    March 27, 2010

    Should probabaly just ignore Graeme. Some people can’t seem to deal with the fact that their elected President is a black man. So they just make up any reason they can think of to delude themselves.

  194. #194 pcarini
    March 27, 2010

    I’ll take projection for the win, please.

    I’ll see your projection, and raise you a Dunning-Krueger

  195. #195 Kristjan Wager
    March 27, 2010

    First of Graeme Bird, given the fact that you’re not American, why are you so concerned with this issue? And why are you buying into all the lunatic claims made by the far-right crowd in the US? Are you just trolling us?

    Neither is better. Thats why health care reform was important. Rather than a totalitarian takeover attempt and ongoing measures to bankrupt the US.

    “Totalitarian” has a specific meaning. Learn it. Expanding health care cost doesn’t fall within the definition. Also, the health care reform will save money, making bankruptcy less likely (both for the country and for the individuals).

    You guys do realise you are bankrupt do you not? There seems to be a great many things that have escaped your attention.

    “Bankruptcy” has a specific meaning. Learn it.

    You do at least agree that you are bankrupt. And that you will not be paying for this scam right?

    The US has some economic problems (to put it mildly), but they are not, and will not become, bankrupt as a result of these.

    It could be argued that since the US are running on a deficient, some of the cost of health care are paid by future generations, but claiming that all of them are paid by future generations is plain nonsense. Especially when we’re talking about health care covered by private insurance, which much of the health care affected by the new health care bill is.

  196. #196 maureen.brian#b5c92
    March 27, 2010

    GB is so busy trying to read from a script – must be hard with your head permanently up your arsehole – that he completely fails to notice that both Matt Penfold and I are speaking from direct, current experience.

    Sad, very sad.

  197. #197 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    Nator are you claiming that the Americans WILL be paying their bills?

    If none of you can even get this right it doesn’t say much for the intellectual depth of the leftists here.

    Mind telling me HOW you will pay your bills? Given that last month you needed to borrow 212 billion dollars just to tread water?

    Who you going to steal off.

    Just…. face ….. facts.

  198. #198 Shala
    March 27, 2010

    What country do you live in Shala?

    I live in the underwater city of Rapture.

    It’s pretty damp there, but the big daddies work hard to keep us from being overrun by the parasites.

    Which is why I’m asking would you kindly shut the fuck up?

    Perhaps that will be understood perfectly by this fuckwit.

  199. #200 Kristjan Wager
    March 27, 2010

    I live in the underwater city of Rapture.

    It’s pretty damp there, but the big daddies work hard to keep us from being overrun by the parasites.

    Now that was a fine nerd reference (OK, gamer reference, but I got it, even though I am not a gamer).

  200. #201 blf
    March 27, 2010

    I’ll see your projection, and raise you a Dunning-Krueger

    I wonder if we can add some Crank Magnetism?

    Hey, how about it Bird:

     ?  Who or what brought down the twin towers (9/11)?
     ?  Do vaccines cause autism?
     ?  Did the holocaust happen?
     ?  Does HIV cause AIDS?
     ?  Evolution or creation?

  201. #202 Shala
    March 27, 2010

    Now that was a fine nerd reference (OK, gamer reference, but I got it, even though I am not a gamer).

    Thank you. I figure when dealing with someone as insane as Bird, I may as well speak nonsense right back at him.

  202. #203 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    I live in the underwater city of Rapture.

    It’s pretty damp there, but the big daddies work hard to keep us from being overrun by the parasites.

    Shala for the win!

  203. #204 Shala
    March 27, 2010

    Shala for the win!

    I aim to please. The god-damned splicers are starting to mobilize around my interbutt machine, so I’d better take the bathysphere to somewhere else. God DAMN splicers!

  204. #205 negentropyeater
    March 27, 2010

    Birther Bird,

    Just…. face ….. facts.

    You have no idea what the word “facts” even means. For you facts are the same as fiction, you do not live in the real world, you are a completely delusional paranoid fool. Go and see a doctor. Get help soon. And fuck off.

  205. #206 pcarini
    March 27, 2010

    Given that last month you needed to borrow 212 billion dollars just to tread water?

    I had too look a little to see where Graeme Bird got this $212 B number.. this is the closest I could find:

    In February 2010, the US did indeed import $213.7 B in goods and services from other countries. That’s the only number close to $212 B that I can find relating to this Feb. We did in fact have a record trade deficit in Feb., as we only exported $151.4 B in goods and services, making a difference of $62.3 B.

    So: Grame Bird, where did you get your $212 Billion figure?

    (source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24046611/ [quoting an AP story] [see, this is how adults back up their claims!])

    I’m nowhere near qualified to be an economist, but I feel I can confidently say that a trade deficit is not the same thing as the federal deficit.

  206. #207 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    What country do you live in Shala?

  207. #208 Shala
    March 27, 2010

    What country do you live in Shala?

    I live at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean in an underwater city. Didn’t I just get finished telling you I lived in Rapture? But perhaps I’ve said too much, I’d best go grab my 9-iron before my leader sees what I’ve been up to…

  208. #209 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    OurDeadSelves #199

    Don’t you realize that Obama’s mother knew back in 1961 that little Barack would be running for president in 2008 and planted those birth announcements in Honolulu newspapers.

    Honestly, you don’t understand just how deep this conspiracy runs and how long it was in planning.

  209. #210 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    So lets get this straight. You alleged science fans, supported this bill, on the basis of the slogans “health care reform” and “single payer” even though the money for this scam cannot possibly be forthcoming?

    That about right? Now tell me how you going to pay for this? Given the reality of the deficit running over 200 billion a month. Bear in mind that February is the shortest month.

    Its one thing to protest that you are in favour of science. But you are not. You pottymouths are all obsessively against applying any sort of viable scientific analysis to almost anything.

  210. #211 blf
    March 27, 2010

    Bird:

    ? Who or what brought down the twin towers (9/11)?
    ? Do vaccines cause autism?
    ? Did the holocaust happen?
    ? Does HIV cause AIDS?
    ? Evolution or creation?

  211. #212 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    *sigh* I know, ‘Tis, I know.

    Sometimes I just need someone like you to break it down piece by piece so I can accept the *facts!* of our Muslim-fascist-communist-dictator’s rise to power. Relatively normal guy who won an election? Nah! His mom orchestrated the whole thing!

  212. #213 pcarini
    March 27, 2010

    I’ve got to correct my #206, I did find the correct federal deficit numbers, which have the federal government $220.9 B in the red in February. (as I said, I’m a poor economist)

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g-YziTsAJw1ofv-BiXk2MoSXknwQD9EBVD6G0

    Bear in mind that February is the shortest month.

    From the article I just linked:

    Deficits normally shoot up in February because it is a month when the government makes large refund payments to individuals and corporations as part of the tax filing process. Those payments were boosted this year by various tax credits that were expanded or added as part of the government’s stimulus efforts including the “Making Work Pay” tax credit and the first-time home buyers tax credit.

  213. #214 Shala
    March 27, 2010

    You pottymouths

    Your concern is noted.

  214. #215 Kristjan Wager
    March 27, 2010

    For those of you who hasn’t realized it. Graeme Bird is an Australian and a Libertarian, running as a candidate for the Liberal-Democratic party in Dobell, NSW, Australia (he got 182 votes)

    Apparently he holds “an economics degree from Otago University in New Zealand”. This is not to be confused with an Masters or Bachelors degree in economics, as can be seen from this overview.

  215. #216 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    Hey Birdie, I’m still waiting on a linky to the supposed costs of healthcare reform that you keep prattling on about. Where are you getting your numbers and how are you positive that it will bankrupt the US?

  216. #217 negentropyeater
    March 27, 2010

    Birther Bird,

    until you show evidence that this bill is going to increase the deficit, your assumption that it will has no value.

    You are a delusional fool. You don’t have a clue about science, economics, finance, public policy, history. Nothing. You are a childish incoherent ignorant idiot.

    Just. Go. Away.

  217. #218 pcarini
    March 27, 2010

    @ Kristjan Wager #215

    Ah, he’s a politician. No wonder he’s so averse to actually backing up his claims …

  218. #219 Ichthyic
    March 27, 2010

    ? Evolution or creation?

    is it getting warmer or not?

  219. #220 Ichthyic
    March 27, 2010

    That about right? Now tell me how you going to pay for this?

    heyo little Birdie…

    Five bucks sez you DID NOT ask this question when W coerced the US into the war in Iraq.

    …but we did.

    you see, some of us actually read legislation, and we actually do understand how taxes work, how redistribution of existing program funding works, etc.

  220. #221 Kristjan Wager
    March 27, 2010

    Its one thing to protest that you are in favour of science. But you are not. You pottymouths are all obsessively against applying any sort of viable scientific analysis to almost anything.

    Most of us actually understand the concept of science, and the scientific method. Nothing you’ve done has any connection to neither.

    Some of us even have a basic understanding of economics, and understand the difference between how macro-economics and micro-economics operate. There is nothing inherently problematic with a deficiency in the state finances, though the interest rate drain on the finances are an issue for concern. Also a cause of concern is the lack of trust in the economy and the reluctance of others to loan money to the state (either directly or through buying state bonds) – these are not serious issues with the US, though there are some signs that lenders (mostly China these days) are becoming less happy about the current situation.

  221. #222 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    No no. You are not interested in the scientific method. You are delusional. And you seek to project your delusions onto your non-leftist opponents. Sometimes with justification but usually without.

    Now just to prove this. I challenge anyone of you to come up with a plausible scenario wherein the Americans pay their debts without runaway inflation. Without galloping inflation.

    You cannot even come up with a plausible scenario or admit their inherent bankruptcy. This is how delusional you are. Scienceblogs is an outfit dedicated to delusional leftist projection.

  222. #223 blf
    March 27, 2010

    There is a Graeme Bird who writes a blog A Better World: Graeme Bird for High Office (subtitled: Dearest blog. Cheapest Thinktank. Deepest Philosopher. Most Holistic Prophet.). The writing style and evidence-free claims are quite similar, as in this post, Obama Trashing The United States Really IS A Conspiracy. This Is Just A Fact.

    He is. There is no doubt about it. And he?s going to succeed. Because people cannot seem to be sensible about the idea of conspiracy. They try to make it that leftist conspiracies can never happen. Whilst some people see conspiracies everywhere and this may well be a form of mental illness, it is indeed unfortunate for our culture that we find the idea of non-leftist sanctioned conspiracies such a personal and social embarrassment that we cannot bring ourselves to believe it.

    But there really is no question that Obama is deliberately trying to weaken and destroy the United States. Its the guiding principle of everything he?s doing.

    And he is indeed a truther:

    YouTube is a very good thing and the best medium imaginable for the presentation of evidence. If but for youtube and the preponderance of hand-held video, even nearly 8 years on, almost none of us would know that the terrorist attack was not just a hijacked plane attack. But that the buildings must have been rigged up overnight with explosives.

    Presuming the blogging Bird is our current troll, we have a first-class idiot here.

  223. #224 Jadehawk OM, Hardcore Left-Winger
    March 27, 2010

    No Matt doesn’t. Matt seems to be relying on a recent spate of articles downplaying the problems with British health specifically in support of passing this new Soetoro scam.

    that is too hilarious for words.

  224. #225 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    All good stuff. Until we find out how all that molten iron got in the basements. These matters will be controversial until we find this out. Obviously I’m not blaming former President Bush. And I don’t think it was an inside job. But we don’t know about the molten iron. So the questions need to be raised. We want to find all the culprits and not just a few of them.

  225. #226 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    we have a first-class idiot here.

    Can’t argue with that…if it isn’t on his talking points list, like evidence, nada…

  226. #227 blf
    March 27, 2010

    Bird:

     ?  Who or what brought down the twin towers (9/11)? [explosives, see @232]
     ?  Do vaccines cause autism?
     ?  Did the holocaust happen?
     ?  Does HIV cause AIDS?
     ?  Evolution or creation?
     ?  Is it getting warmer or not?

  227. #228 Ichthyic
    March 27, 2010

    No no. You are not interested in the scientific method. You are delusional. And you seek to project your delusions onto your non-leftist opponents. Sometimes with justification but usually without.

    extreme projection is a sure sign of underlying mental illness, Birdie.

    better get yourself checked out!

    you’ll be much happier and saner.

  228. #229 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    March 27, 2010

    Until we find out how all that molten iron got in the basements.

    Underpants Gnomes: Know The Symptoms.

  229. #230 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    No no. You guys are the idiots. You won’t face any facts at all.

    To test yourselves out focus on the inherent bankruptcy of the United States. Think of a plausible scenario where they can reverse the logic of Bernie Madoff and keep their ponzi-scheme on the fly.

    You won’t be paying your bills.

  230. #231 pcarini
    March 27, 2010

    Graeme Bird:

    No no. You are not interested in the scientific method.

    Don’t make me compile a list of the number of things you have asserted, as fact, without any sort of evidence, in this thread alone.

    A quick little refresher on the scientific method

  231. #232 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “extreme projection is a sure sign of underlying mental illness, Birdie.”

    Yes my argument exactly. Scienceblogs sites are effectively leftist projectionist church.

  232. #233 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    March 27, 2010

    I like blf’s approach. Let’s continue until he answers the questions or goes away because we won’t tolerate him dodging them:

    Bird:

    ? Who or what brought down the twin towers (9/11)? [explosives, see @232]
    ? Do vaccines cause autism?
    ? Did the holocaust happen?
    ? Does HIV cause AIDS?
    ? Evolution or creation?
    ? Is it getting warmer or not?

  233. #234 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    You won’t face any facts at all.

    Still waiting on that linky that proves your facts, Birdie boy.

  234. #235 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    And Mr. Bird, some of us are professional scientists (30+ years in my case). Don’t even pretend to think you can tell us how to use the scientific method, we know better. You are a fraud, poser, liar and bullshitter. If you need confirmation of that, your lack of evidence for your inane assertions is glaring…

  235. #236 JeffreyD
    March 27, 2010

    Popped back over and see this is still going on. I must admit, this turd can really float. Killfile is my friend. OK folks, is he worth unkilling to read or just more of the same crap? Unless he has some new and interesting lunacies I will not waste my time. Willing to bet he has already moved on to the birth certificate and 9/11 denial. Let me know if/when he gets to holocaust and AIDS denials.

    Ciao y’all

  236. #237 blf
    March 27, 2010

    The blogging Bird, who does seem to be the current troll (see @225), subscribes to some idea called “the electric universe” (which I’m not even going to attempt to summarise, it’s too wacky):

    [T]he ?electric universe? contingent have the better paradigm for how the stars operate than the ?fusion alone? people.

    This then somehow proves AGW isn’t happening:

    With all of the above and more ?. Just where is this anomaly? What known anomaly is there? What anomaly in temperature exists that this nonsensical non-existent ?greenhouse effect? is supposed to explain?

    If you are a believer find me the anomaly first. I don?t think that this is too much to ask. Find the anomaly or give up on your cost-imposition, and sovereignty selling-out for all time. Find me an anomaly I can work with. If you cannot even so much as find me an anomaly then where are you with this jive? You are nowhere with this jive. Without an anomaly the alarmists are just a bad joke.

    So: Birther. Truther. AGW-denialist.
    First-class idiot.

  237. #238 Ichthyic
    March 27, 2010

    You won’t be paying your bills.

    Birdie!

    are you offering to pay our bills for us?

    why, that’s so generous of you!

    we accept!

    please contact the Dept. of the Treasury to get the final tally for the last 10 years, including the bills for:

    -the afghanistan invasion
    -the Iraq invasion
    -the “rebuilding” of Iraq
    -all economic stimulus packages

    which, btw, any one of which DWARF the money it will cost to make the small dent in HC costs this current Bill will entail.

  238. #239 blf
    March 27, 2010

    Bird:

    ? Who or what brought down the twin towers (9/11)? [explosives, @223, @225]
    ? Do vaccines cause autism?
    ? Did the holocaust happen?
    ? Does HIV cause AIDS?
    ? Evolution or creation?
    ? Is it getting warmer or not? [AGW-denier, @237]

  239. #240 Shala
    March 27, 2010

    Hey, I don’t mind if Bird pays my water bill for me.

  240. #241 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    So: Birther. Truther.AGW-denialist.

    First-class idiot.

    Especially the latter. Every time he posts. This is a case where silence might be his friend. But he will post, the ideological loser idjit he is…

  241. #242 Kristjan Wager
    March 27, 2010

    Now just to prove this. I challenge anyone of you to come up with a plausible scenario wherein the Americans pay their debts without runaway inflation. Without galloping inflation.

    OK. Let’s see – reduction on war spending, currently approximately $100 billion per year would definitely help. This could be done by e.g. getting out of Iraq. This would also help reduce future costs to the veterans’ health care system.

    Cuts on other military spending (totaling more than $600 million, including war spending) would also help, though it might increase unemployment.

    Government investment into high-potential sectors, allowing those to do the necessary research and development, creating jobs in the long run, thus increasing the future tax base.

    Increase the top tax bracket to e.g. Reagan levels.

    On top of that, a general overhaul of the current insurance health care system, which causes a lot of waste and unnecessary bankruptcies.

    You know, all those traditional Keynesian measures that you seem to have such a disdain for.

    Of course, reducing the debt is a long-term job, and not something which can be done in just a decade, but the measures I mention are definitely steps in the right direction.

  242. #243 dexitroboper
    March 27, 2010

    Someone has already posted a link to Bird’s habitats @223, but it should be mentioned that Bird is already banned at a bunch of blogs including Deltoid, Larvatus Prodeo, johnquiggin.com and probably many others. You wont get any sense from him, he’s been pulling his schtick for years.

  243. #244 Shala
    March 27, 2010

    I see the Bird migrates quite often.

  244. #245 Mands
    March 27, 2010

    Oh lordy, Bird’s a fellow Aussie. I apologise on behalf of all Australians for his existence. Unfortunately it’s probably the result of the excellent universal health care system we have here.

    It’s not without it’s faults but it is quite wonderful: have cancer you’ll get the treatment you need. My aunt got a new surgical treatment for Parkinson’s where they put electrodes in her brain, on the public system. I got made redundant from my job a few months ago and I haven’t paid a cent for my medical treatment and only a few dollars for prescribed drugs in that time.

    As for Bird’s comments about Obama’s name, I have no idea what’s true or not other than that Obama goes by the name Obama now, as an adult… and that’s the name his wife and children use so why are you using another? I know quite a few people who have taken step parent’s name while a child or at school and as adults they choose to revert to their father’s or their mother’s name. It so common that I can’t believe bird brain is crapping on about it.

    And people, pls continue calling them teabaggers. Itmakes me giggle every time!!!!

    I would like to thank Birdy for urging me to google “Soetoro” though, because now I know Obama has a sister who is as talented and impressive as he is! What an impressive family his is. How nice to see such strong and impressive women around a leader.

  245. #246 blf
    March 27, 2010

    Not on my list, but the blogging Bird, who is very probably also our troll, is one who claims DDT was banned for killing malaria mosquitoes (it wasn’t, not world-wide anyways, the ban was for farming), and that as a result of this non-existent ban, an unspecified number of people (Bird the blogging troll calls it a “holocaust?) have died: How A Pro-DDT Expert Goes To War/Beware The Feeble Wordgames Of The Holocaust Deniers. Amazingly, I believe he’s correct on two points: DDT was(/is?) overused at times for malaria control, and DDT is not a full solution for controlling malaria.

    And he mentions Lambert, Bug Girl, and others, so I suspect he’s infested SciBorg before.

  246. #247 blf
    March 27, 2010

    Yep! Anti-vaccine as well, An Embarrassing Fuckwit Calling Himself Skeptico:

    They don?t see anything imprudent with jacking babies with multiple vaccines all in one hit, and the vaccines containing the nerve and brain poison MERCURY. And the fuckwit sighted a court case with absolutely no transparent reasoning or data in it and erroenously decided that this meant that there is no possible link between these imprudent and frankly quite criminaly negligent practices and autism. The fact is no evidence either way was presented so one would obviously defer to prudence and commonsense. And one would take seriously the change in babies demeanour that is often reported when these disgraceful multiple vaccines laced with mercury are practiced.

    I’ll (try to) stop now. This guy is multiple train wrecks on a planet with pink skys, polka-dot clouds, and yellow oceans. Geesh!

  247. #248 Rey Fox
    March 27, 2010

    “The other day in my beloved city of Minneapolis, I saw a car with numerous truther bumper stickers. Fuck me, I went into brain shock for a few seconds.”

    Yesterday, I went to Cafepress to order one of those little Euro oval-type stickers for my home state of Idaho (just a simple “ID” in an oval, that kinda thing), and for the heck of it, clicked to the seller’s page. Brain shock is a pretty good way to describe what I saw. My favorite example: “On November 2, I Will Remember 3/21″. Isn’t that wonderful? The day that the House passed the health care bill (not the day Obama signed it, incidentally) is such a day of infamy that it gets it’s own M/D/Y code!

    (Also, it’s my younger brother’s birthday, so there was that extra level of surreality for me.)

    I think we’ve reached this sort of rhetorical point of no return. People on the left levelled some pretty heavy criticisms of Bush, which were mostly well-founded, but scathing nonetheless. Impeachable offenses, that kind of thing. Now the right-wingers apparently think they have to reach that level of outrage to get their point across. It’s not enough to say that they think the health care bill is fiscally irresponsible, no, it has to be treason and the destruction of the country, and other such foaming-at-the-mouth stuff. I feel like from now on, any political debate is just going to be characterized by lunatic screaming. It’s not a comforting thought.

  248. #249 Kristjan Wager
    March 27, 2010

    Scienceblogs is an outfit dedicated to delusional leftist projection.

    While I am “leftist” by US standards, where Obama and the Clintons are apparently leftist, I am not by neither European nor Australian standards. Nor are most of the bloggers and commenters at ScienceBlogs.

  249. #250 Antiochus Epimanes
    March 27, 2010

    I suggest we give our Australian friends a pass, as we ask them to forgive us for Kent Hovind, and assign Graeme Turd a more appropriate and descriptive nationality of his own: Asstralian.

  250. #251 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    *raises libation in salute to AE #251*

  251. #252 Antiochus Epimanes
    March 27, 2010

    One more thing: Should craig.perko still be lurking, I think a vital point got overlooked in the furor. Certainly there were violent left-wing extremists in the 60s and early 70s but what’s significant is not their existence but the contemporary reaction of the corresponding establishment.

    Today’s teabaggers are getting pats on the head from Republican leaders, who may give tepid official disavowals of violence but in the next breath say “But I can understand how you feel, heh, heh” (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). They’re actively pandering to them, seeking to incorporate them as Republican voters, and keeping the pot boiling with hysterical rhetoric and denunciations of Democrats as traitors.

    In the 60s the Democrats quickly distanced themselves from “revolutionary” movements, and as the party in
    power until 1969 were in fact responsible for pursuing and arresting those radical groups.

    The key difference is that leftist radicals were immediately marginalized by Democrats, while Republicans are running to embrace their homegrown terrorists.

  252. #253 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    The alleged commitment here to the scientific method is a lie, and only part of the projectionist schtick.

    Give me any subject. I cannot get you to apply reason and the scientific method to it. Doesn’t matter what the subject is.

    American Finance. The Big Bang. Special Relativity. The global warming fraud. The need for public vigilance.

    It won’t matter what subject you choose. Your aversion to reason and the scientific method is total. Propaganda to the contrary, is simply part of the projectionist church.

  253. #254 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    Still not giving me a link to those figures, GB?

    Scientific method is all well and good, but it means squat without any evidence. Unfounded assertions = bollocks.

  254. #255 Rincewind'smuse
    March 27, 2010

    Five bucks sez you DID NOT ask this question when W coerced the US into the war in Iraq.

    …but we did.

    Ditto for tax cuts for the upper 1 % , Medicare Part D and no child left behind. Seriously , GB, as someone who’s day job is to have to slog daily through insurance paperwork that’s kneedeep attempting to deny my ability to provide the best care that an insurance company would deny my patients you obviously know less than nothing.Is this bill the cure to my patient’s problems, no.Is it the first of many necessary steps, I hope so. In the meantime what you’ve described as a cure( you know, leveraging your retirement against the inevitable) is as stupid as say , privatizing Medicare. Fuck off.
    Oh, and cool Bioshock reference, Shala.

  255. #256 Rincewind'smuse
    March 27, 2010

    Clarification; the quote is from ictyic, which was spot on, the response was to GB who is a friggen loon.

  256. #257 davem
    March 27, 2010

    No you are wrong. For example in Britain you have all these waiting lists. Your system is far better, although much more expensive.

    Yes, you’re right. The last time I went to the NHS for soemthomg, I had to wait three while fucking minutes. Terrible!

    Much more expensive? You’re joking, right?

  257. #258 Ichthyic
    March 27, 2010

    Your aversion to reason and the scientific method is total.

    you really don’t understand how projection works.

    but then, it’s what I expect from the insane.

  258. #259 blf
    March 27, 2010

    Bird:

     ?  Who or what brought down the twin towers (9/11)? [explosives, @223, @225]
     ?  Do vaccines cause autism?
     ?  Did the holocaust happen?
     ?  Does HIV cause AIDS?
     ?  Evolution or creation?
     ?  Is it getting warmer or not? [AGW-denier, @237, @254]

  259. #260 Ichthyic
    March 27, 2010

    It won’t matter what subject you choose.

    that much we agree on.

    It’s obvious your willful ignorance knows no bounds.

  260. #261 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    . I cannot get you to apply reason and the scientific method to it.

    As a professional of scientist of 30+ years, you have done nothing of the sort as far as applying the scientific method. You start with garbage in. Guess what you get out? (hint, it doesn’t smell nice) Quit lying to yourself, then you can quit lying to us. We own your ass on applying the scientific method…

  261. #262 Carlie
    March 27, 2010

    For those of you who hasn’t realized it. Graeme Bird is an Australian and a Libertarian, running as a candidate for the Liberal-Democratic party in Dobell, NSW, Australia

    Aw, damn. I kind of wanted for him to be living in Texas or Alaska but claiming that they were never properly brought into the Union, so therefore he wasn’t actually American (yet had a Social Security card and was collecting unemployment benefits).

  262. #263 blf
    March 27, 2010

    This Bird crap troll may not be a creationist, but it’s not much of an evolutionist, Dr David Berlinski On Intelligent Design.

    Absolutely stupendous playlist talking about intelligent design versus contemporary Darwinian theory. Unfortunately contemporary Darwinian theory is crap. This is not to say that some sort of evolution isn?t a done deal. Just not the version as is commonly understood. So much more must be going into this story than natural selection, only indigenous to this planet. This cannot be the whole of the mechanism. I would recommend that any serious thinker ought to listen to the entire playlist.

    [L]isten to what Berlinski has to say. I?ve not been able to get this point through to other people with the help of other thinkers. But this Berlinski appears to be particularly persuasive.

    Birther. Truther. AGW-denialist. Anti-Vaxer. Some wacky physics, and odd biology.
    First-class idiot.

    I’ll try to stop. Really, I will. But this guy isn’t just a floating turd on a planet with pink skies, polka-dot clouds, and yellow oceans, he’s the entire input to the sewage plant. Which is overflowing.

  263. #264 Zabinatrix
    March 27, 2010

    I have a question that might sound strictly rhetorical, but I think I’m actually curious. Do you think that people like bird actually are incapable of seeing the repeated requests for citations and sources for their claims?

    When someone comes in here like Bird and begins spouting nonsense that flies in the face of all common knowledge and reason, they usually just state everything as if it were fact and don’t give any sources for their claims. And of course they get called on it – in this thread there is a multitude of simple requests on the form of “Could you show us a source for those numbers?” and Bird very consistently ignores every one.

    I’m really interested in the psychology there, since that behavior is so common among the lesser trolls that come in here. I wonder what the reason is, why they ignore simple requests for sources for their claims.

    Do they ignore them because the do in fact lack sources? Do they ignore them because they actually don’t understand the importance of sources to back up your claims? Or is there something in their psychology that makes them unable to “see” or process the fact that people are asking for simple information that would defend their claims?

    I mean, might there be some sort of reflex to protect them and keep them in their pleasant delusion of holding the higher ground? Delusions are fragile things and it can be painful to be snapped out of them by attempts to find actual, solid evidence for the things you so love to claim, so maybe it’s an unconscious defense mechanism that keeps them from seeing the questions about sources…

  264. #265 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “Ditto for tax cuts for the upper 1 % , Medicare Part D and no child left behind…..”

    Well what can I say? I think your last President was a nice man. An honest fellow for the most part. But he was financially incontinent. His Veto arm must have been broken in three places. You can do a lot of little things right and two or three big things horribly wrong and your Presidency can be a great tragedy.

    He had his own medical reform, and it started off with some excellent ideas with health savings accounts. But it wasn’t financed. Where is business going to get the resources to improve things if they are all being sucked into Washington parasitism?

    I thought his first two years were pretty good, but his final six he had your lads in a state of static defense. Waiting to be blown up.

    You think all the many failures were due to him and his people, but the system itself doesn’t work if you’ve got these huge deficits and debts.

    With regards to 9-11 the Arabs-Alone conspiracy is untenable if the molten iron in all three basements is the real deal. Some on the left claimed George Bush did it. Of course I don’t think that. But the fact remains that the official story is untenable and the fever pitch against finding out the truth in all outstanding mysteries is very worrying.

    What we have seen here is a massive government of a size where it has hit immense diseconomies of scale. Any widescale change needs to be very careful towards the poorest amongst us because they stand to be disproportionately hurt when rapid change is attempted.

    But what was needed in the US was a comprehensive decentralisation, and getting ones financial house in order. There can be no faking reality in these matters. Budgets can be made that would seem to be adequate for the task. And yet the carrying out of policy just doesn’t seem to work. So much hidden inflation in the system, and so much gross investment sucked into public waste means nothing really functions any more. George Bush copped too much of the blame. But the fact is your society is not working like it used to.

    I don’t how you were cursed with a maniac like Hank Paulson. But we can see that with Bush-Paulson-Soetoro there is a smooth glide-path to truly crazy dysfuntion. Your society is in the process of destroying itself. If you don’t want to believe in foreign financed malice on the part of Soetoro, you can believe that Washington is ripping the Republic apart. If you are going to survive you are going to have to heal quickly.

    I suppose you all made fun of Ron Paul. But he was the only financially sound candidate in the last Presidential race.

  265. #266 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “I have a question that might sound strictly rhetorical, but I think I’m actually curious. Do you think that people like bird actually are incapable of seeing the repeated requests for citations and sources for their claims?”

    These blockheads are not setting homework for me pal. If I went off on documentation missions for every dim bulb that had no reason to doubt my veracity on these matters I’d end up a serf to stupidtown.

    When they want to contest what I’m saying and really care about the answer, and have found actual evidence to the contrary I’ll think about putting some time in. But you all have google. Don’t ask me to do something for you that you can do for yourselves.

  266. #267 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Yawn, what a wasted, without content, post by Bird brain at #267. Losers just never get to the point, or evidence. No need to say what Bird brained is…

  267. #268 Ichthyic
    March 27, 2010

    If I went off on documentation missions for every dim bulb that had no reason to doubt my veracity on these matters I’d end up a serf to stupidtown.

    umm, you just can’t see the irony of you saying that, can ya?

  268. #269 Zabinatrix
    March 27, 2010

    When they want to contest what I’m saying and really care about the answer, and have found actual evidence to the contrary I’ll think about putting some time in. But you all have google. Don’t ask me to do something for you that you can do for yourselves.

    You come in making claims. Claims that are extremely different from what is considered common knowledge. The onus is really on you to back up those claims, not for others to do your work for you.

    Don’t go trying to turn this around, trying to say that someone is trying to make you do their work. The claims are yours and it is the one making the claims who should back them up.

    This reminds me of that silly comic about believers and non-believers. Not that this particular discussion is about religion, but there are parallels.

    In the comic there is two guys, one says that he has a baseball. The other says “Oh yeah? Prove it!” and the first guy then holds out a baseball, making the second guy go “Oh, ok.”

    Then there are two guys, and this time one of them is supposed to represent a believer. Again he says that he has a baseball. The other guy asks for proof. The first guy screams in rage “You can’t prove that I don’t!”

    That’s not the way normal people handle things. People don’t come in making wild claims that seem strange to everyone, and then just go “Oh, prove me wrong” when asked to supply simple sources. People put up or shut up – at least in good, adult conversations.

    And again – this is something we see often here. It’s not just you, Bird. People who make the wildest claims, the claims that seem the least connected to the reality the other of us know, always refuse to provide sources. They always pretend like they are never responsible for their own claims – it’s always the people who listen to you who needs to find proof for what you say, isn’t it?

    Damned annoying behavior, I think.

  269. #270 blf
    March 27, 2010

    Its blog (@223) is noticeably link-free. There are a few (embedded videos and the like), but it mostly just comical rants excruciatingly similar to what its posting here. Essentially no evidence or citations.

    Bird:

    ? Who or what brought down the twin towers (9/11)? [explosives, @223, @225]
    ? Do vaccines cause autism? [yes, @248]
    ? Did the holocaust happen?
    ? Does HIV cause AIDS?
    ? Evolution or creation? [confused, @264]
    ? Is it getting warmer or not? [AGW-denier, @237, @254]

  270. #271 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    So, I’m not getting a link for those health-care bill costs, then?

    Color me shocked.

  271. #272 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Color me shocked.

    Ouch/augh, that’s what one gets for having bunnies, who like to chew on extension cords…

  272. #273 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    No I’m not making any claims that you are incapable of testing the veracity of.

    The fact is you guys live in a bubble world. That is why you are so ignorant. This is your projectionist church.

    Choose reason. Find out what the other fellows case is. Science is about judging competing paradigms in parallel. Not about following your own prejudices and purposefully rendering yourselves painfully ignorant.

    I could say it wasn’t easy after 8 years finding out that 9/11 was a larger deal then I had ever suspected. But for me it WAS easy. Because I don’t get emotional about it. I just follow the evidence.

    I don’t say “Rosie O’Donnell. Stupid. Truther”

    and think that I’ve made an argument. But you guys do. If you don’t believe me just check down the thread. So you are not smart. You don’t follow reason. You are not interested in applying the scientific method. You ought to stop deluding yourself about it.

    Someone even went so far as to post a fake document, that was not even a birth certificate, in order to prove that Obama was Barry’s extant legal name, even though we know Barry had his name changed as a kid.

    Now this is not just not good enough.

    You cannot judge any issue on the basis of total ignorance of contrary contending points of view. And you are ignorant. Purposefully so. Has even one of you checked out just by way of example the objections to the document posted (not a birth certificate) being an authentic document?

    You don’t know. You don’t care to know.

    Face it. You are bunch of thicko’s get used to it. Or at least accept what you are as a way of improving.

  273. #274 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    The fact is you guys live in a bubble world. That is why you are so ignorant

    Can you believe the projection from this idjit?

    Science is about judging competing paradigms in parallel.

    Wrong fuckwit, science is all about judging on the evidence. Which you are shy on. Hence the fuckwit.

    You cannot judge any issue on the basis of total ignorance of contrary contending points of view.

    Right, points of view = opinion. All opinions are not equal as some have evidence, and others, like the bird brains, don’t.

    You are bunch of thicko’s get used to it.

    No, we have proved, with evidence you are the thicko. Get used to it….

  274. #275 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “I’ve got to correct my #206, I did find the correct federal deficit numbers, which have the federal government $220.9 B in the red in February.”

    Great work. I said 212 billion. I stand corrected. Now you all behaved like this fellow I’d have to eat my harsh criticisms.

  275. #276 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    You are not interested in applying the scientific method.

    To what? To politics? That just… dumb.

    And what’s up with the obsession w/ US politics, Bird? Why do you care if we bankrupt ourselves or not?

  276. #277 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    No no Nerd. The idea is to line up and develop various theories in parallel. And to rank and re-rank these hypotheses, in light of the incoming evidence.

    This job cannot be well done if you are totally ignorant of other points of view.

  277. #278 blf
    March 27, 2010

    Bird:

     ?  Who or what brought down the twin towers (9/11)? [explosives, @223, @225]
     ?  Do vaccines cause autism? [yes, @248]
     ?  Did the holocaust happen?
     ?  Does HIV cause AIDS?
     ?  Evolution or creation? [confused, @264]
     ?  Is it getting warmer or not? [AGW-denier, @237, @254]

    If you notice Bird, I have been trying to understand your PoV (point-of-view). It would help if you’d actually answer the questions!

  278. #279 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Someone even went so far as to post a fake document, that was not even a birth certificate, in order to prove that Obama was Barry’s extant legal name, even though we know Barry had his name changed as a kid.

    The minor fact that the “certificate of live birth” was certified genuine by both the Hawaiian Department of Health and the Republican Governor of Hawaii is utterly meaningless to a true believer. Bird doesn’t give us facts because he knows facts are confusing. Sometimes they don’t say what he really needs them to say. He prefers to go with “common sense” and “everyone knows” and “you guys live in a bubble world.” Facts are for sissies.

  279. #280 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Bird brain can’t answer questions. That would require going off script, which is not allowed by by the *Conspiracy Theorist Cabal*.

  280. #281 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    Good analytical skills can be applied to all areas of life ourdeadselves.

    Now you have to have more than two hypotheses in parallel in the scientific method.

    There is no such thing as EVIDENCE divorced from an hypothesis. The process of the scientific method is applying the evidence to see how it affects the relative plausibility of the hypotheses being judged.

    Three hypotheses in parallel is a minimum. Six would be better.

  281. #282 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    There is no such thing as EVIDENCE divorced from an hypothesis.

    Like the EVIDENCE that you refuse to provide?

    And you haven’t really answered any of my questions. 1) What’s with the hard-on for US policy and 2) I still want to know the difference between a birth certificate and a certificate of live birth.

  282. #283 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    ? Who or what brought down the twin towers (9/11)? [explosives, @223, @225]

    NOT THE PLANES ALONE.

    ? Do vaccines cause autism? [yes, @248]

    DON’T KNOW. NEITHER DO YOU.

    ? Did the holocaust happen?

    SEVERAL.

    ? Does HIV cause AIDS?

    I WOULD THINK SO.

    ? Evolution or creation? [confused, @264]

    EVOLUTION. BUT NOT AS COMMONLY UNDERSTOOD. THE BIG BANG IS A LUDICROUS CREATION THEORY.

    ? Is it getting warmer or not? [AGW-denier, @237, @254]

    A BRAZEN SCIENCE FRAUD AND AN ACID TEST TO WHO IS AN IDIOT AND WHO IS NOT.

  283. #284 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “Like the EVIDENCE that you refuse to provide?”

    Clinically certifiable leftist projection.

  284. #285 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “I still want to know the difference between a birth certificate and a certificate of live birth.”

    That doesn’t surprise me. You are just completely ignorant. Find out. Then come and tell me.

  285. #286 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Like the EVIDENCE that you refuse to provide?

    What evidence? You never provide any fuckwit. What a loser…

  286. #287 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    You’ve been asked nicely to provide evidence for your assertions. It’s not “certifiable leftist projection” that YOU refuse to provide evidence for YOUR claims. If you want us to even consider your stupidities then YOU have to show us they’re not stupid. Otherwise we’ll consider your stupidities to be nothing more than the nonsensical ravings of a lunatic mind.

  287. #288 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “The minor fact that the “certificate of live birth” was certified genuine by both the Hawaiian Department of Health and the Republican Governor of Hawaii is utterly meaningless to a true believer”

    That did not happen you are lying.

  288. #289 aplaceinthestar
    March 27, 2010

    Man, cognitive dissonance. Can’t even argue with em, because they can’t think rationally or logically.

  289. #290 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    Oh, really, Bird? I provided links to back up all of my assertions. This leads me to believe that you don’t actually understand that the text that appears in blue is actually this neat little gimmick called a “hyperlink” that lets you jump from website to website! Amazing! It’s like magic!

    And you still haven’t answered my (or blf’s) questions.

  290. #291 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    That did not happen you are lying.

    What, a denialist lying? *Decides against swooning since there are people withing 10 miles of my position, and I don’t want to knock them out of even a nanometer of their present position for such an obvious lie.*

  291. #292 WowbaggerOM
    March 27, 2010

    Graeme Bird wrote (on global warming):

    A BRAZEN SCIENCE FRAUD AND AN ACID TEST TO WHO IS AN IDIOT AND WHO IS NOT.

    At least you’re half-right…

  292. #293 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “You’ve been asked nicely to provide evidence for your assertions. It’s not “certifiable leftist projection”

    Yes it is. Drop what you are doing now and provide evidence for your beliefs. At least I COULD do it if I felt the need to.

    So its leftist projection. You aren’t providing evidence for the global warming racket, that the Americans are financially sound, for special relativity, for the big bang, or anything else.

    So you are just an idiot, practicing leftist projection.

  293. #294 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    Lets make this very clear. You think its fine, to pass another bill, one that will not solve any problems at all, and that is supposed to cost about a trillion dollars over the next ten years….

    …. When even as things stand you have no chance NO CHANCE of paying your bills even as things stand?

    That is your position isn’t it?

    Yes it is.

    Blockheads. Dummies. Not smart. Not too bright. Dim bulbs. Not the committed analysts you are affecting to be. Not the sharpest tools in the shed.

  294. #295 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    At least I COULD do it if I felt the need to.

    I did give you links, remember? One of them was even broken, which I helpfully updated in another post. So, what’s your excuse?

  295. #296 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010
    I still want to know the difference between a birth certificate and a certificate of live birth.

    That doesn’t surprise me. You are just completely ignorant. Find out. Then come and tell me.

    The difference that Hawaii issues a “certificate of live birth” when a child is born and the birthers say it’s not a “birth certificate.” It’s on such flimflam that the birthers pretend Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii. About half the states issue certificates of live birth. The State Department will issue a passport if the applicant produces a certificate of live birth as proof of citizenship.

  296. #297 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    At least you’re half-right…

    No I’m totally right. Its a brazen fraud. You have no evidence which could justify cost imposition. NONE AT ALL. I don’t know if at our air pressure extra CO2 will warm a tiny bit or cool a tiny bit all I know is that the effect is tiny.

    This is such a clear fraud its incredible. I can make the prediction that none of you are even so much as coming up with an hypothesis, that if proved would justify this brazen fraud.

    Its just amazing. Worried about some alleged tiny bit of warming during a brutal and pulverising ice age.

    Dumb. Real Dumb. You are dummies. So stupid.

  297. #298 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Yes it is. Drop what you are doing now and provide evidence for your beliefs. At least I COULD do it if I felt the need to.

    Listen up, asshole. YOU are the one making the assertions so YOU are the one who has to provide evidence. If you don’t have the evidence nobody will think any the less of you. That’s because it would be difficult to think any the less of you.

    So stop pretending it’s our job to refute your looneytarian ravings. If you want to convince us you’re not an idiot then you have to produce the evidence. This concept should be understandable even to a raving looneytarian idiot.

  298. #299 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “t’s on such flimflam that the birthers pretend Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii.”

    You don’t know where he was born. Don’t pretend you do. What we ought to be sure of is that he’s hiding something. The anti-birther campaign is a campaign against the respecting of the law. If you come to my country, you can have your passport but you must present it. You can have your visa, but if you flush it down the toilet we won’t let you in. You can have your pants and underpants, but if you refuse to wear them, you won’t get past customs.

    This is the case universally. So the anti-birthers are something entirely new. No other campaign has ever been so irrational as to place the burden of proof for ELIGIBILITY on third parties. That doesn’t even happen at little league. Here to open a bank account I’ve got to present more credentials then you wanted from Soetoro to take over the most powerful job in the world.

    You see you are dummies. Projecting your stupidity onto your enemies.

    The anti-birther campaign is irrational. Simple as that.

  299. #300 blf
    March 27, 2010

    “The minor fact that the “certificate of live birth” was certified genuine by both the Hawaiian Department of Health and the Republican Governor of Hawaii is utterly meaningless to a true believer”

    That did not happen you are lying.

    It’s unclear if Gov. Linda Lingle certified it, but Dr Chiyome Fukino, director of the Dept. of Heath, certainly did. As did independent examiners:

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

    http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

    Notice, Bird, I named names, gave links, and those links are to reputable sites. You have done none of this. You are a first class idiot.

  300. #301 blf
    March 27, 2010

    The anti-birther campaign is irrational. Simple as that.

    Fixed.

  301. #302 Iris
    March 27, 2010

    Even if global warming were a fraud, clean, sustainable energy would still be a good idea, environmentally and economically. Except for rendering irrelevant the dirty energy conglomerates and their little shills like Graeme here, there is no downside.

    Actually, that’s not a downside.

  302. #303 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    I only made two assertions– that Obama’s name is Obama and that he’s a US citizen– and I gave you links. Everything else has been questions about your evidence and your sanity. Oh, and I think I called you a douche canoe as well.

    Okay, this has gotten insane.

    Scratch that, this was insane hours ago. I can assert that Soylent Green isn’t people, but without providing evidence, I just look like a reactionary crazy person. You’re doing the same exact thing by withholding evidence for your half assed crazy claims, fucktard.

    So, once last linky link for you to click, Bird. Hopefully this helps you out.

  303. #304 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    You don’t know where he was born. Don’t pretend you do.

    I’ve seen convincing evidence (the sort of thing you’re refusing to provide) that Obama was born in Hawaii. A certificate of live birth issued by the Hawaiian Department of Health and certified by its director is legal proof of where and when he was born. It’s up to you birther delusionists to show otherwise. Normal people don’t question his birth BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE HAS BEEN PRODUCED BY COMPETENT AUTHORITY.

  304. #305 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    You don’t know where he was born. Don’t pretend you do.

    I’ve seen convincing evidence (the sort of thing you’re refusing to provide) that Obama was born in Hawaii. A certificate of live birth issued by the Hawaiian Department of Health and certified by its director is legal proof of where and when he was born. It’s up to you birther delusionists to show otherwise. Normal people don’t question his birth BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE HAS BEEN PRODUCED BY COMPETENT AUTHORITY.

  305. #306 blf
    March 27, 2010

    [A]ll I know is that the effect [CO2 greenhouse warming at atmospheric concentration and pressure] is tiny.

    Ok, put a number on it. How much? Over what period of time?

  306. #307 Zabinatrix
    March 27, 2010

    Yes it is. Drop what you are doing now and provide evidence for your beliefs. At least I COULD do it if I felt the need to.

    I feel the need to say it again – if you come in here making claims that seem questionable to people, the adult, normal thing to do is to provide that evidence if you’re able. You do not simply proclaim that you are right and let others do the work of proving things for you.

    So its leftist projection. You aren’t providing evidence for the global warming racket, that the Americans are financially sound, for special relativity, for the big bang, or anything else.

    Wait…. You want this thread to provide evidence for global warming, special relativity and the big bang when A) There are many thousands of books and peer-reviewed articles on each subject – something you can’t dismiss by simply saying “you never provide any evidence.” and B) This thread has nothing to do with those things…. Nice.

    And upthread I was questioning what the hell anyone would stand to gain from making some kind of crazy totalitarian health care bill. I just didn’t get how Obama or anyone else would be able to “intimidate” people into doing what he wants through health care. Of course you didn’t explain further, but now I’m curious about another thing…

    Regarding this “global warming racket”…. Who would have anything significant to gain from perpetuating a lie of that magnitude?

    I mean, it’s very obvious that the oil and coal companies would have very much to gain from the lie that AGW isn’t happening. They would have a clear motivation to lie.

    But scientists generally don’t have much investment in the few and very much less powerful companies that would gain from more public acceptance of AGW.

    And don’t come with the typical “Oh, the scientists are aaaalll lying about AGW, special relativity, the big bang, eeeeverything, to keep their jobs and make lots and lots of money!

    1) Scientists in primary research generally don’t make lots of money. B) Do you think that 99% of scientists in the appropriate fields are morally corrupt enough to present things they know are falsehoods every day? III) Do you realize that if scientists could show work that completely overturn the generally accepted theories about climatology, relativity or cosmology they would not only keep their jobs but also be instantly famous and get Nobel Prizes and whatnot?

    So who is perpetuating this “global warming racket”? Who is lying about special relativity and whatever else you choose not to believe in spite of all the research done on those subjects?

    Have you read any of the peer-reviewed papers on any of those things? Or have you only read short summaries in popular press? If the latter, do you really think that you can judge whether evidence has been presented or not?

  307. #308 Epikt
    March 27, 2010

    Graeme Bird:

    The alleged commitment here to the scientific method is a lie, and only part of the projectionist schtick. Give me any subject. I cannot get you to apply reason and the scientific method to it. Doesn’t matter what the subject is. American Finance. The Big Bang. Special Relativity. The global warming fraud. The need for public vigilance.

    Special Relativity? Do tell? What’s wrong with it? Come on, you’ve made a claim. Now give me the evidence.

    I’ll expect you to express your claims in the language of of tensor calculus, of course, but surely someone of your brilliance should be able to do so easily. You most likely already know the requisite math, but even if you don’t, I’m sure you can pick it up in a couple hours. I’ll wait.

    Or you could provide links to your published papers (you’ve published in the peer-reviewed literature, right?) Give me the references; I can access the journals at work on Monday.

  308. #309 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “I’ve seen convincing evidence (the sort of thing you’re refusing to provide) that Obama was born in Hawaii.”

    No you have not. You are lying. And you haven’t so much as found out why that is clearly a fraudulent document.

    But thats not even the whole point. You don’t want to know where he was born or what it is he is hiding.

    Thats the point.

    He is hardly going to produce two (or more) fake documents, and release no real documents if he isn’t hiding something.

    This is not the way we would play it if someone showed up at the airport, with no pants, presenting no visa, no passport, and claiming that he must be let through since all were in his carry-bag, but he refuses to open his carry bag.

    Once again. The campaign against the birthers is straight unreason. Straight irrationality. Could not be more irrational. You show up for little league, you hand over your birth certificate. Simple.

    So you are on the side of pure irrationality.

  309. #310 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    Anyone who claims that those fake internet copies have been certified by competent authority is a liar.

    But thats not the whole point. What is he hiding?

    The anti-birthers are straight and committed irrationalists.

  310. #311 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Sorry about the double post. I’m not sure how it happened and I’m not producing any evidence to show I’m not sure.

  311. #312 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    So, what’s in it for you, Bird? Why do you give a rat’s ass about our Prez and our health care policies?

  312. #313 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    So where’s your evidence that Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii. We’ve given links to evidence that competent authorities say he was born there. You just can’t call them liars. You, that’s YOU, you fucking loonetarian asshole, have to show they’re liars. We’ve done our share of the evidence producing, now it’s your turn.

    This is known in the states as “put up or shut up.”

  313. #314 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “Man, cognitive dissonance. Can’t even argue with em, because they can’t think rationally or logically.”

    Exactly right. Projectionism. Cognitive dissonance. Relentless irrationality. Thats these lefties nailed down entirely.

    Don’t need to muck about. The fact that he didn’t just hand over his documents proves that he’s hiding some massive scandal. So much so that its a lesser scandal were he not eligible. You see he is not eligible or if eligible there is even a greater scandal. The lesser scandal protects one from the even greater scandals just so long as one stonewalls enough.

    We might call it the “lesser scandal stonewall” as opposed to the even trickier “less scandal tripwire.”

  314. #315 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “Listen up, asshole. YOU are the one making the assertions so YOU are the one who has to provide evidence…”

    No no. Should you state your own point of view this will be an assertion also. Many people here have made assertions. What they haven’t done is come up with evidence for their assertions.

  315. #316 Jason A.
    March 27, 2010

    I don’t know if at our air pressure extra CO2 will warm a tiny bit or cool a tiny bit

    Air pressure? You think it has to do with air pressure?
    For fuck’s sake…

    This guy is a case study in Dunning-Kruger.

    So: Birther. Truther. AGW-denialist

    Side note: we need a hip term for ‘AGW-denialist’ like we have for birthers and truthers.

  316. #317 WowbaggerOM
    March 27, 2010

    So, what’s in it for you, Bird? Why do you give a rat’s ass about our Prez and our health care policies?

    I suspect it’s because he wants to make sure he gets his money’s worth for all the tinfoil he bought to make hats with. He’s probably getting 1 post/foot out of this thread so he’ll keep going for a while.

  317. #318 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    What they haven’t done is come up with evidence for their assertions.

    I gave you links*, asshole! Did you even click them?

    * #178, #199

  318. #319 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “So where’s your evidence that Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii. We’ve given links to evidence that competent authorities say he was born there”

    I don’t believe you. I’ve only seen one statement one time that could count for what you are saying. That statement was apparently ILLEGAL. So you’ve got to ask whether you want to believe a single illegal statement one time by one woman. So thats some evidence. But it isn’t much and it doesn’t tell us what he is hiding. Nor is it a substitute for him submitting authentic documents. Nor was it beyond the capacity of foreign intelligence to plant documents at an Hawaiian hospital at that late stage.

    When asked to do this sort of thing you’ve just got to hand over the birth certificate and submit all your other documents. See your point of view is irrational. Since its not up to any of us to prove where he was born. But rather up to Soetoro to prove that he ought not be clapped in irons.

  319. #320 blf
    March 27, 2010

     ?  Who or what brought down the twin towers (9/11)? [explosives, @223, @225]
    NOT THE PLANES ALONE.

    Partial answer: Neither a who nor a specific what. Try again.

     ?  Do vaccines cause autism? [yes, @248]
    DON’T KNOW. NEITHER DO YOU.

    Your blog (see @248) indicates you have bought into the mercury-in-vaccines-is-very-dangerous silliness, which (used to be) the alleged cause of autism. So have you changed your mind?

    And, b.t.w., it’s unlikely you know what I believe, as I haven’t stated it. You may suspect, and you don’t know.

     ?  Did the holocaust happen?
    SEVERAL.

    I’ll take that as a ?yes?. Good, you’re not a complete loon.

     ?  Does HIV cause AIDS?
    I WOULD THINK SO.

    Ok. good as well.

     ?  Evolution or creation? [confused, @264]
    EVOLUTION. BUT NOT AS COMMONLY UNDERSTOOD. THE BIG BANG IS A LUDICROUS CREATION THEORY.

    Totally confused. The Big Bang has nothing to do with evolution. It does (very indirectly) affect abiogenesis (in the form of stellar processes producing heavy elements), but not evolution per se.

     ?  Is it getting warmer or not? [AGW-denier, @237, @254]
    A BRAZEN SCIENCE FRAUD AND AN ACID TEST TO WHO IS AN IDIOT AND WHO IS NOT.

    Who benefits from this alleged fraud. Name names. Not ?the scientists? or somesuch, but specific names.

    So, besides the birther, we have definite AGW-denialist, and very likely a truther. Looks like Crank Magnetism at work.

  320. #321 Jason A.
    March 27, 2010

    Since its not up to any of us to prove where he was born. But rather up to Soetoro to prove that he ought not be clapped in irons.

    Prove you’re not a serial rapist. It’s not up to me to prove it one way or the other, it’s up to you to prove we shouldn’t throw you in prison.

  321. #322 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Nor was it beyond the capacity of foreign intelligence to plant documents at an Hawaiian hospital at that late stage.

    Now you’ve gone from wackaloon to completely stark raving bonkers.

    It’s impossible to discuss anything with you when you refuse to provide any support for your claims. Your word isn’t in the least bit credible and that’s all you have.

  322. #323 Jason A.
    March 27, 2010

    So, besides the birther, we have definite AGW-denialist, and very likely a truther. Looks like Crank Magnetism at work.

    Don’t forget physics kook.

  323. #324 Carlie
    March 27, 2010

    And you haven’t so much as found out why that is clearly a fraudulent document.

    Ok, since we’re so thick, please explain how that is clearly a fraudulent document. What exactly proves so clearly that it is fraudulent?

  324. #325 Jason A.
    March 27, 2010

    Ok, since we’re so thick, please explain how that is clearly a fraudulent document. What exactly proves so clearly that it is fraudulent?

    Because it says he was born in Hawaii, duh!

  325. #326 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “Special Relativity? Do tell? What’s wrong with it? Come on, you’ve made a claim. Now give me the evidence.”

    You are supporting this ludicrous fairytale of religious-style reification. Lets have your evidence in its favour.

    Now about this birth certificate? What is he hiding? What do you think? Essentially this con-artist, who has just conned you into a new bill that solves no problems and that you cannot pay for, has a Praetorian guard and foreign regime backing. He can take out anyone, without even going through his own intelligence apparatus.

    So whats he hiding? He’s just saying to you, “I don’t have to prove anything. I’ve lawyers guns and money. I don’t even need your vote. I can buy any election”

    Already he’s sown intimidation in the community by failing to do the decent thing and simply hand over all his documents. Then of course there were the murders of a number of gay men in his congregation. You want to stop the church from “singing” it may be advantageous if the voice coach is murdered.

    Let us never forget Donald Young.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FrAmzvhGGY

    None of you have even heard of this fellow have you?

  326. #327 blf
    March 27, 2010

    Anyone who claims that those fake internet copies have been certified by competent authority is a liar.

    No-one has claimed that. Both the director of the Dept. of Health, and independent investigators, have seen, touched, examined, and photographed the document, including verifying the embossed seal: See @301.

    You now need to produce evidence. Hard, solid, evidence. People have clearly done the searches you suggested, and have found directly contrdictory evidence to your claims. Now stop simply making assertions and start supporting what you’re saying.

  327. #328 Jason A.
    March 27, 2010

    1. Assert something
    2. When asked to support, claim it’s up to everyone else to prove the assertion wrong, otherwise it must be true
    3. When given evidence that the assertion is wrong, claim the evidence is fraudulent
    4. Tell everyone they don’t know how to do science

    Am I understanding your position here, Bird?

  328. #329 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “Ok, since we’re so thick, please explain how that is clearly a fraudulent document. What exactly proves so clearly that it is fraudulent?”

    No no. You are going to have to find out. You’ve simply got to get used to looking at all sides of the story. There is simply no excuse when you now have the internet and can quickly find a visual demonstration of everything thats wrong with this document.

    You have no excuses anymore to be living in this bubble.

  329. #330 blf
    March 27, 2010
    So, besides the birther, we have definite AGW-denialist, and very likely a truther. Looks like Crank Magnetism at work.

    Don’t forget physics kook.

    Oops! Sorry, I did. Also, don’t forget its DDT-ban-caused-a-holocaust nuttiness: @247.

    I rather suspect further examination of its blog will find further gems (it dates back to c.2006): @223.

  330. #331 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Yes, I’ve heard of Donald Young. He was the gay choir conductor of the church in Chicago that Obama went to. Young was murdered. Right-wing wackloons have been trying unsuccessfully to pin the murder on Obama ever since.

  331. #332 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    There is simply no excuse when you now have the internet and can quickly find a visual demonstration of everything thats wrong with this document.

    Except all that we seem to find are experts supporting its validity.

    Oh, fuck you, Bird. I could be playing FFXIII, but noooooo, you had to suck me into crazy-town.

  332. #333 Carlie
    March 27, 2010

    Now about this birth certificate? What is he hiding? What do you think?

    I don’t think he’s hiding anything. How are you going to prove me wrong? Where’s the evidence that the birth certificate is fraudulent? Heck, at this point I’d even take your own personal opinion on what makes it fraudulent. But you haven’t produced anything other than rabid frothing nonsense.

  333. #334 Jason A.
    March 27, 2010

    No no. You are going to have to find out.

    Really, Bird, do you not understand this is completely transparent? Most of us figured out, way back in elementary school, that when someone pulls ‘if you don’t know, I’m not telling you!’ they’re just making excuses.

  334. #335 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    No no. You are going to have to find out. You’ve simply got to get used to looking at all sides of the story.

    If you’re not going to provide any evidence to support your ridiculous claims then we have no alternative but to dismiss them as the nonsensical ravings of a lunatic mind.

  335. #336 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    blf you are a liar. You are now claiming that no-one claimed that these fake internet documents have been verified by relevant authorities.

    You are talking nonsense man. Now your claim explicit and unambiguously worded. Thats something that the Hawaiians found almost impossible to do.

  336. #337 blf
    March 27, 2010

    None of you have even heard of this fellow have you?

    Wrong. Try again. Mr Young, a new(? as I recall) principle at some school in Chicago was murdered (can’t recall just when). For no coherent reason, some people have claimed he was President Obama’s homosexual lover, with the implication that the President had ordered him killed.

    I have no idea if the murderer has ever been found.

  337. #338 Carlie
    March 27, 2010

    Except all that we seem to find are experts supporting its validity.

    Exactly. I have looked around, and it all checks out. If you think it doesn’t, it’s up to you to show us why it doesn’t. We have absolutely no reason to spend any time looking for imaginary evidence that you insist exists, when we’re already satisfied with the validity of what we’ve found.

  338. #339 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Bird still has not produced the slightest bit of evidence. Lots of denouncing about “the bubble” and leftist projection and massive amounts of conspiracy ramblings but Bird is still lacking in the actual, documentary evidence department.

  339. #340 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    When you are talking about what some Hawaiians did or didn’t say make your claims explicit.

    They had a very hard time verifying anything in an unambiguous way.

    I’ll go over it again. Only one unambiguous statement was made by a relevant authority which implies that Barry is eligible to be President.

    This was apparently an illegal statement. Plus she’s a medical person and no constitutional theorist.

    Its not up to people to read ambiguouosly worded statements and for the rest of us to look at these statements like they were tea-leaves.

    Rather its up to the usurper to just hand all his documents over, to see where he was born, who his daddy was and what is the even worse scandal that he is hiding.

  340. #341 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    This was apparently an illegal statement. Plus she’s a medical person and no constitutional theorist.

    Guh, what?

    How was her statement illegal? Did she say it while smoking weed?

  341. #342 blf
    March 27, 2010

    Bird, both the director of the Dept. of Health, and independent investigators, have seen, touched, examined, and photographed the document, including verifying the embossed seal: See @301. They did not examine the scans which have been circulating, but the actual physical document.

  342. #343 Jason A.
    March 27, 2010

    Its not up to people to read ambiguouosly worded statements and for the rest of us to look at these statements like they were tea-leaves.
    Rather its up to the usurper to just hand all his documents over, to see where he was born, who his daddy was and what is the even worse scandal that he is hiding.

    Me @322:

    Prove you’re not a serial rapist. It’s not up to me to prove it one way or the other, it’s up to you to prove we shouldn’t throw you in prison.

  343. #344 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    See you are all mindless bubble-dwellers because none of you have put it together to understand the stupidity of expecting third parties to prove eligibility.

    He’s just got to hand over his documents. Then you’ll see what he is hiding. Then we may have a chance of verifying what this conman is up to.

    I mean I would have thought we already know what he is up to. He’s up to destroying or taking over the US. But you think so. Okay. The problem is you don’t want to know. And thats where the irrationality is.

    Next time you are asked for documents tell them “you cannot prove anything” and see how you go.

    Face up to your full spectrum irrationality.

  344. #345 Shala
    March 27, 2010

    Oh, fuck you, Bird. I could be playing FFXIII, but noooooo, you had to suck me into crazy-town.

    How is FF13 btw? I’m playing Pokemon Heartgold at the moment, shit is so cash.

    To Bird:

    I will speak to you as befits a lunatic, with a language that will call into question even my sanity.

    Oui yna y dudym mihydel. ku vilg ouincamv oui vilgehk lmufhcrua. Fuimt oui gehtmo mayja drec pmuk?

    You really deserve nothing less than people talking complete bollocks towards you.

  345. #346 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    You still haven’t answered why the fuck you care so much.

    And as far as I’m aware, Obama did hand over his documents. You know, before he was even nominated. Evidence which we linked to, but you can’t be fucked to read.

  346. #347 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    No in fact you are an idiot Shala.

    Now where is the nurses who helped deliver young Obama. Where are the other Mothers who used to talk to Stanley Ann Dunham when she was in maternity ward. Where are Barry’s girlfriends?

    Why did Barry’s grandmother state that she was there when little Obama was born? Why did she claim he was born at the Coast Providence Hospital.

    I don’t know any of this. Neither do you. The point is he’s a conman, and he’s hiding important stuff. Meanwhile he’s ruining everything as fast as he can.

  347. #348 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    This was apparently an illegal statement.

    What’s illegal about it? She was (still is, as far as I know) the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health and was asked to certify a document produced by her department. Which she did.

    Plus she’s a medical person and no constitutional theorist.

    What part of “the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health … was asked to certify a document produced by her department” do you fail to understand?

    You keep making ambiguous claims and keep failing to provide the least evidence to support them. Give us something besides the nonsensical ravings of a lunatic mind.

  348. #349 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “Bird, both the director of the Dept. of Health, and independent investigators, have seen, touched, examined, and photographed the document, including verifying the embossed seal: See @301.”

    What document? Don’t link to yourself. Don’t hide behind links. Make clear what document you are talking about.

  349. #350 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    How is FF13 btw? I’m playing Pokemon Heartgold at the moment, shit is so cash.

    It’s really pretty good, actually. If you can get past the awful voice acting and the incredibly obnoxious characters.

    BUT! The combat and the leveling systems are so unbelievably fucking awesome that it’s worth the petty annoyances.

  350. #351 blf
    March 27, 2010

    Who made this statement, and how (or why) was it illegal?

    Dr Chiyome Fukino, the director of the Dept. of Heath, is (presumably) a ?medical person?, so I presume that is who Bird is yammering about (since, in @341 Bird yammered ?she’s [the person making the statement] a medical person?).

  351. #352 Jason A.
    March 27, 2010

    Don’t hide behind links. Make clear what document you are talking about.

    Lol. ‘Don’t hide behind supporting your claims.’
    Rarely do you encounter stupidity of this caliber.

  352. #353 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health … was asked to certify a document produced by her department”

    What part of “WHAT DOCUMENT” don’t you understand?

    A document? A birth certificate?

    Can you not see you blockhead, that everything is worded ambiguously. To PERSISTENTLY word things ambiguously is to lie with premeditation.

    We’ll try again.

    This time make your claims explicit. And if you start seeing a pattern forming with pronouncements from Hawaii do let me know you dim bulb.

  353. #354 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    See you are all mindless bubble-dwellers because none of you have put it together to understand the stupidity of expecting third parties to prove eligibility.

    What a fuckwit. Try reading the law…

    Now where is the nurses who helped deliver young Obama.

    What a fuckwit. It doesn’t matter, and none are coming forward and saying anything against the state document. What a loser…

    I don’t know any of this.

    Yep, you are an ignorant loser, and we know it. What the state says is the only thing that matters. And it say Obama is birthed in Honolulu. What a loser…

  354. #355 Asclepias
    March 27, 2010

    Mr. Bird, time for a short lesson in the legal system here in the United States. If you are the plaintiff-that is, the one making the complaint-you bear the burden of proof. Essentially, you have to prove to us, the defendants (and jury), why you are making your complaint. You must show us the proof that we are ‘guilty.’ You can’t ask the defense to go dig up material on why the defendant is guilty. We’ve given you links, now you give them to us. Fair’s fair.

    You keep telling us that we are stupid. Perhaps we are, but at least we’ve thought about what we’re saying rather than parroting Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh.

  355. #356 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    It hasn’t occurred even once to any of you committed irrationalists that this is not the way things are done.

    What happens is you got to sign up for little league, and to be eligible you hand over your birth certificate.

    Its not up to Obamas three law firms, its not up to Hawaiians speaking a lot of double-talk. Its not up to me. Its up to this traitor to prove he is eligible in the first place.

    You just hand over your documents.

    You guys are thick. You are dumb. You are morons. You are dim. You get it?

    So in fact one or two of you tried to prove he was born in Hawaii and you couldn’t do it. Because you got landed with an immense amount of ambiguous double-talk.

    But the problem is you were too stupid to comprehend what this ambiguous double-talk is telling you.

  356. #357 Shala
    March 27, 2010

    That sounds good OurDeadSelves. If I had a PS triple I’d give it a try.

    No in fact you are an idiot Shala.

    Oui yna y vilgehk lmufhcrua, yht E ryja ycgat fuimt oui gehtmo mayja drec pmuk. Fryd y vuum, duum, yht cduum ibuh syhgeht!

  357. #358 blf
    March 27, 2010

    The simplified version of @301 for people with poor reading comprehension:

    Dr Chiyome Fukino, director of the [Hawaii State] Dept. of Heath, [certified as genuine Obama's Certificate of Live Birth]. As did independent examiners [who saw, touched, examined, and photographed the actual physical document, including the embossed seal]:

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

    http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

    Notice, Bird, I named names, gave links, and those links are to reputable sites. You have done none of this. You are a first class idiot.

  358. #359 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    Shala @346:

    Oui yna y dudym mihydel. ku vilg ouincamv oui vilgehk lmufhcrua. Fuimt oui gehtmo mayja drec pmuk?

    Al Bhed?

    I totally missed this. Shala, did you nerdgasm all over the thread?

  359. #360 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    What part of “WHAT DOCUMENT” don’t you understand?

    Certificate of Live Birth, asshole. The fucking legal document that says Obama was born in Hawaii. The one certified as authentic by the Director of the Hawaiian Department of Health, the folks who issued the thing.

    Don’t play stupid, dumbshit. You’ve been given links to the document. Now it’s up to you to show the document isn’t authentic.

  360. #361 Asclepias
    March 27, 2010

    To return to the original post, there already has been violence. Senators spit on, threats left, bricks thrown through windows, a house vandalized. Sure sounds like violence to me.

  361. #362 Epikt
    March 27, 2010

    Graeme Bird:

    You are supporting this ludicrous fairytale of religious-style reification. Lets have your evidence in its favour.

    You’re joking, right? You’ve made a claim that is contrary to a very large body of evidence, and you want me to provide evidence that I’m right? That’s not how science works, and I’m not obligated to explain things to you that you’re too lazy to look up, or too stupid to understand. But today’s your lucky day, Zippy, because I’m feeling a bit magnanimous. But only a bit.

    So what’s your alternative explanation for the anomalously large measured muon flux at the Earth’s surface? The predictions of Newtonian mechanics fail completely, while those of Special Relativity are consistent with experiment. (Note: this is an experiment taught to every freshman physics student. The fact that you are apparently unaware of it strongly suggests that you are talking out your ass).

    There are many more corroborating experiments, but I’m not going to play your little game. You’ll try to dismiss the evidence I present while refusing to present any of your own, in an obvious attempt to put the rational side of the argument on the defensive. That’s not going to happen. You made vague claims to the effect that SR is wrong. Defend those claims, or admit you’ve been bullshitting. Explain the large muon flux. Your explanation has to be consistent with all the other experiments whose results are consistent with SR. That’s how science works.

    If you can’t do that, you’re in effect admitting that you’ve been spewing nonsense. You can dodge and tapdance, attempting to reframe the argument or change the subject, jabbering the whole time about “reification,” all you want. It’s an obvious demonstration that, as they say, you got nothin’.

  362. #363 WowbaggerOM
    March 27, 2010

    Hang on, I just have to do one thing:

    Comment by Graeme Bird blocked. [unkill] ?[show comment]

    Ah, that’s better.

  363. #364 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    You just so thick Shala. You are really dim.

    Now what is it about someone concealing his background that you don’t find suspicious?

    He’s not eligible because he refuses point blank to prove eligibility. You cannot point to any situation wherein someone can be eligible behaving in this manner.

  364. #365 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    It hasn’t occurred even once to any of you committed irrationalists that this is not the way things are done.

    What? The claiment, you, always has the burden of proof. And you fail every time.

    You just hand over your documents.

    That has been done, as the state law of Hawaii allows. What is your problem fuckwit? That document is recognized by everybody except idjits like yourself. What a loser.

    But the problem is you were too stupid to comprehend what this ambiguous double-talk is telling you.

    What a fuckwit. We understand exactly why you are wrong, and exactly why you are a fuckwit. The only double-talk is on the part of fuckwits like you…

  365. #366 otrame
    March 27, 2010

    Side note: we need a hip term for ‘AGW-denialist’ like we have for birthers and truthers.v

    Hmmm idiot?

    *raises hand diffidently

    I have a question. Why are you wasting time on this guy? Why am I wasting time reading what you have written to and about this guy? What we have here is one of two types:

    1) Losers whose egos are so weak that they only way they can be happy is if they come up with some special knowledge that they have and you don’t. This type of numbskull is heavily invested in this nonsense because he thinks it means he is not a loser at all. There is absolutely no way he will change his mind about anything. There is literally nothing you can say that will make a dent.

    2) The game player. He doesn’t believe the nonsense himself. He just likes to go to a site and make a bunch of statements that are clearly ridiculous and then see how long it is before everyone realizes that nothing they say will change his “opinion” and stop talking to him. It’s just a game.

    Given the evidence, I suspect we have a number one here, because all of his “beliefs” involve “knowing” more than the people who actually study this stuff as a profession.

    Either way, nothing you say will change his mind about anything. And he isn’t even entertaining,

    So…

    How about those kids at Butler beating Kansas State. Cool story, don’t you think?

  366. #367 Asclepias
    March 27, 2010

    What’s not the way things are done? Giving evidence as evidence?

    Quite frankly, guys, the reason GB keeps telling us we are dumb is that he is totally freaked out by the fact that there are some major intellectual heavyweights over here and he can’t compete, so he tries to compensate for his paucity of brain cells by frustrating us by not giving us his evidence (which most of you have already managed to sleuth out). It’s the coward’s way of fighting.

  367. #368 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Its not up to Obamas [sic] three law firms, its not up to Hawaiians speaking a lot of double-talk. Its not up to me. Its up to this traitor to prove he is eligible in the first place.

    Why shouldn’t Obama’s lawyers speak for him? Lawyers handling a legal affair is what usually happens, even in Australia.

    As for the “traitor” bullshit, that’s a serious charge. The US Constitution has some specific verbiage about what is treachery and how it’s proved. The proof requires more than some right wing liar making anti-Obama noises.

  368. #369 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    My goodness. You have no dignity. What goose-stepping sheeple you all are.

    Now here is the situation. Supposing you get pulled over by a policeman. Can I see your drivers license he says.

    I have one and I’m eligible to drive you say. But I’m not ever going to show you it. Talk to my three legal teams.

    Is this normal behaviour in your view?

    You show up to an international airport. You claim you have your passport and its valid, and the fellow cannot prove that it isn’t valid. You claim you have a valid visa. But likewise you won’t present it. Talk to my lawyer you say. And you claim that you have in fact a pair of pants and that though you won’t wear anything to cover your private parts, the fact that you have pants, and valid pants at that, well that makes it all Okay.

    You stupid stupid stupid stupid blockheads. It just doesn’t matter what this fellow does. It just doesn’t matter. Because you are not rational human beings. You are mindless sheeple.

  369. #370 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 27, 2010

    otrame #368

    Either way, nothing you say will change his mind about anything. And he isn’t even entertaining,

    We know we won’t change his mind. However he’s the first troll to wander by in a while. He’s keeping our teeth sharp and our coats sniny.

    How about those kids at Butler beating Kansas State. Cool story, don’t you think?

    I don’t follow minor league basketball.

  370. #371 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    What goose-stepping sheeple you all are.

    Bwahahaha, nice way to describe your paranoia. As sheeple. Deluded illogical sheeple. Fits.

    You stupid stupid stupid stupid blockheads

    Here you go again describing yourself. Personally, blockhead is too mild, ignorant idjit fuckwit is closer to the truth.

    Because you are not rational human beings.

    I doubt if you will see a blog with a higher collective IQ than here. Again, showing yourself to be a paranoid fuckwit gets you nowhere. Evidence is required, and you fail miserably at producing any. What a loser fuckwit.

  371. #372 Asclepias
    March 27, 2010

    Pot calling for kettle! *clang cxlang clang*

  372. #373 Carlie
    March 27, 2010

    Now here is the situation. Supposing you get pulled over by a policeman. Can I see your drivers license he says.

    I have one and I’m eligible to drive you say. But I’m not ever going to show you it. Talk to my three legal teams.

    Is this normal behaviour in your view?

    Wrong. You say “Sure, officer, here it is. In fact, here’s the certified document, and here are the people in charge of verifying the documents to re-verify them for you, and here are some other corroborating documents as well.”

    And then the officer says “No, that’s really not good enough, because I refuse to believe that the documents you have handed me are real and that the experts you have right here are telling the truth.”

    Is that normal behavior, or paranoid denialist behavior?

  373. #374 Jessa
    March 27, 2010

    I think that “Valid Pants” would be a great name for a band.

  374. #375 Jason A.
    March 27, 2010

    I have one and I'm eligible to drive you say. But I'm not ever going to show you it. Talk to my three legal teams.>

    How about this one: You get pulled over, cop asks for your drivers license, you give it to him. Some random douche walking by says ‘that’s not a real drivers license’ even though it looks the part and even has the hologram. The cop is still convinced it’s real. The random douche says ‘prove it’s real’. You and the cop ignore him, so he throws a fit and claims you’re hiding something and the cop is in on it.
    Does that sound like normal behavior to you?

    You’re a stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid* blockhead.

    *I said it five times, that beats your four!

  375. #376 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    March 27, 2010

    My goodness. You have no dignity. What goose-stepping sheeple you all are.

    OMG. Aren’t you gone yet?

  376. #377 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    Oh fuck, sheeple alert!

    Obama DID hand over his birth certificate. It’s in the links that blf and I (and others, I’m sure) provided. If you don’t care to read them, then it’s totally on you, not us.

    We know that the state of HI confirmed that the certificate is valid and several lawsuits disputing the birth certificate have been thrown out of court due to lack of evidence.

    Consider this: If you want a job for the federal gov’t, you generally have to go through some very thorough back ground checks. You honestly believe that the FBI/CIA/whatever can’t figure out if a presidential candidate is eligible for office?

  377. #378 Carlie
    March 27, 2010

    OMG. Aren’t you gone yet?

    I think he’s waiting for someone to validate his pants, or he’s trying to virtually flash everybody, or something. Makes about as much sense as anything else he’s saying.

  378. #379 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “Exactly. I have looked around, and it all checks out…”

    No none of it checks out. You go to check it out and you run aground with ambiguous statements and statements that are ambiguous in a way that implies pre-meditated dishonesty.

    And it doesn’t matter if it does check out. He’s ruining your country and yet you sheeple just cannot get it together to demand proof of eligibility FROM HIM. Not from the media or the factcheckers. But just from him as if he were a normal human being.

  379. #380 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    March 27, 2010

    To Pharyngulites:

    There’s something I just don’t get, and I need your hypotheses. For the sake of argument, please leave aside the legal requirements for citizenship for the US presidency, and the arcana surrounding where one was born, etc.

    Even if Obama were not born in the US (which we know is ridiculous), what actual, material difference would that make? What is it about the geographic location of a person’s birth that so exercises the birthers? What are the specific evils they think flow from being born at one particular latitude and longitude? Seriously – I don’t get it. John McCain was born on a naval base in the Panama Canal Zone, for instance, but that doesn’t faze them. Why?

    I mean, if there were genuine evidence that someone running for President had demonstrable conflicting allegiances to a foreign state, I could understand it. But they don’t seem to be making that claim. It’s as if there’s something magical about the idea of being born over an arbitrary line on a map that’s inherently sinister.

    What am I missing?

  380. #381 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “You’re joking, right? You’ve made a claim that is contrary to a very large body of evidence, and you want me to provide evidence that I’m right”

    You have no evidence in support of special relativity and you WILL NOT be coming up with evidence for this jive.

  381. #382 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    What am I missing?

    You’re not scared of having a black man for president.

  382. #383 Shala
    March 27, 2010

    I totally missed this. Shala, did you nerdgasm all over the thread?

    Yes, al bhed. I figure I should respond to lunacy with lunacy.

  383. #384 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    . You go to check it out and you run aground with ambiguous statements and statements that are ambiguous in a way that implies pre-meditated dishonesty.

    Yep, that is exactly what you are doing. What a loser.

    Even if Obama were not born in the US

    Last I knew Hawaii was the US lying loser…

    What am I missing?

    Logic, lack of paranoiaa, and basic intelligence, and not being a loser…

  384. #385 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    Larry Sinclair assures us he is not black. Where is his old girlfriends?

    That never occurred to you did it OurDeadSelves? Too stupid to think it was strange that no-one claims to be an old girlfriend.

  385. #386 Jason A.
    March 27, 2010

    You have no evidence in support of special relativity and you WILL NOT be coming up with evidence for this jive.

    Said in response to a post that gave evidence for special relativity. Bird is a Grade-A idiot.

  386. #387 John Morales
    March 27, 2010

    Pareidolius @70 FTW!

  387. #388 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    That never occurred to you did it OurDeadSelves? Too stupid to think it was strange that no-one claims to be an old girlfriend.

    Um, no one asked me for a list of my ex-boyfriends when I interviewed for my current job.

    And, so what? Maybe he wasn’t smooth with the ladies. Who the fuck cares?

  388. #389 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    March 27, 2010

    Nerd, #386 – I think you mistook some of my writing to be from the Bird. Please go back and read my #382. I was positing hypotheticals, and I’m not the Bird:)

  389. #390 Physicalist
    March 27, 2010

    “What am I missing?”
    “You’re not scared of having a black man for president.”

    Yeah, that’s basically it. Obama is foreign. He’s international. He’s not a good-old white boy, so he’s not a *Real Amurican*.

    Of course, these a deeply delusional people who think that 9/11 was an inside job, and Einstein and global warming are hoaxes; they see very sinister powerful conspiracies everywhere. (I mean, forging a birth certificate is child’s play, compared to forging the validity of the Lorentz transformations.)

  390. #391 blf
    March 27, 2010

    [T]he reason [Bird] keeps telling us we are dumb is … he can’t compete, so he tries to compensate … by frustrating us by not giving us his evidence (which most of you have already managed to sleuth out). [Bird's doing] the coward’s way of fighting.

    His blog (@223, @237, @247, …) is no different. I haven’t tried posting a comment over there, but the paucity of comments, and the frequency with which Bird seems to counter-comment, combined with the general lack of citations and links, and the overwhelming amount of arrogant assertion, generally supports your hypothesis (and also otrame@368 (number 1)): ?Losers whose egos are so weak that they only way they can be happy is if they come up with some special knowledge that they have and you don’t. This type of numbskull is heavily invested in this nonsense because he thinks it means he is not a loser at all. There is absolutely no way he will change his mind about anything. There is literally nothing you can say that will make a dent.?

    Kristjan Wager@215 points out this nutter has lost at least one election. Rather badly lost, in fact. And dexitroboper@244 points out it’s been banned from multiple blogs, including some at SciBorg. (Indeed, there are attacks on other blogs at the nutter’s blog.)

  391. #392 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    DOH *headdesk* You are correct Josh, OSG, I included both your post and the one above. My apologies for any snark directed at your comments. The loser idjit fools comments though…

  392. #393 Graeme Bird
    March 27, 2010

    “Even if Obama were not born in the US (which we know is ridiculous), what actual, material difference would that make?”

    It may help you stop him from getting lots of people killed and bankrupting the Republic, leaving millions in poverty and enourmous bloodshed in his wake.

    Barry has released two documents of his own free will to the public. Both of them fakes.

    Here is just a little warm-up. But you ought to check this matter out yourself in the spirit of scientific humility and make a good faith effort. I’ll leave the professionals out of it. Just go with an amateur analyst then move on from there.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIsQJNTvlUE

  393. #394 John Morales
    March 27, 2010

    craig @106,

    No, I don’t think so. One of the reasons I have avoided commenting in the past is because of the way posters tend to use straw-man arguments and blow enemy opinions way out of reasonable proportion just to make their targets look stupid. I feel the urge to bite them, even if they are technically on my side. Today just proved that it’s not something I want to try to navigate.

    Shame, because the more, the merrier.

    Fair enough, though, if your SIWOTI is in remission.

  394. #395 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    March 27, 2010

    (I mean, forging a birth certificate is child’s play, compared to forging the validity of the Lorentz transformations.)

    Pure beauty, Physicalist!

  395. #396 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    March 27, 2010

    To Pharyngulites: FYI, I won’t be engaging Teh Bird directly, so don’t be puzzled if I don’t respond to posts he makes directed at me. He’s just too insane to bother with.

  396. #397 Zabinatrix
    March 27, 2010

    You have no evidence in support of special relativity and you WILL NOT be coming up with evidence for this jive.

    I asked you this before, but I’ll ask again since I’m curious: All these subjects that you reject (AGW, physics, cosmology and whatever else it was) – do you realize that they are supported by decades of research? Have you actually read any of the real peer-reviewed research? Or are you basing your “there’s no evidence for it”-judgment solely on things like summaries from the popular press?

    It doesn’t matter much at this point, but I’m still curious about how you deal with things like that. I’m sure you know that there are thousands upon thousands of pages about every single thing you’ve deemed complete hoaxes here, but what do you do with that knowledge? Do you just ignore all that research and think that it can’t possibly hold any good information, or have you ever tried to read some of it?

    What would you think is the more rational thing to do?

    Where is his old girlfriends? That never occurred to you did it OurDeadSelves? Too stupid to think it was strange that no-one claims to be an old girlfriend.

    Wow, I never thought of that! I just realized that I have no idea if our prime minister has any old girlfriends. I have heard NO claims from anyone saying that she is an old girlfriend of our prime minister!

    This is such a revelation to me! But what does this all mean, oh wise Bird? Please tell me! Does it mean that he is an alien? I’m afraid that I haven’t figured out your point, but I’m sure you’ll get there eventually…

  397. #398 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    Hey, Bird. That isn’t an expert in that video.

    Nice try, though. You’re learning how this works!

  398. #399 Antiochus Epimanes
    March 27, 2010

    Guys, I’m pretty sure the G-Turd is typing one-handed. He’s such a complete loser that his only pleasure, sexual or otherwise, is trolling the net and screaming insults at the people (specifically, all of humanity) that consider him too repulsive to address in person. It’s pathetic in the extreme that the only way someone can get off is not only to seek brutal dominance over others, but to publicly do so in one’s own imagination because he’s incapable, both mentally and physically, of doing so in reality. Yet I suspect that’s just what’s happening: He’s spent hours humiliating himself before us all, and while he’s surely deranged, even the unhinged usually don’t do that so thoroughly and consistently unless they’re extracting some perverse pleasure from their twisted perceptions. To put it bluntly, the more reality beats him up, the higher his hopes of successfully beating off.

  399. #400 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 27, 2010

    Both of them fakes.

    Idjit Assclam Fuckwit, they are real until you prove with physical evidence otherwise. We are waiting for true physical evidence on your part…And we will be waiting forever since you are an assclam idjit fuckwit, and have nothing but your lying, bullshitting, and attitude…

  400. #401 beckysharper
    March 27, 2010

    “Now where is the nurses who helped deliver young Obama.”

    “Where is his old girlfriends?”

    Where is the English teacher who failed to teach the Bird about subject-verb agreement?

  401. #402 Feynmaniac
    March 27, 2010

    It may help you stop him from getting lots of people killed and bankrupting the Republic, leaving millions in poverty and enourmous bloodshed in his wake.

    I think I see the problem…

    You’re thinking of the last guy and confusing the past with the future.

  402. #403 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    March 27, 2010

    @ Nerd,

    No problem. It’s easy to get confused when Teh Stupid comes in so thick and fast!

  403. #404 OurDeadSelves
    March 27, 2010

    And as far as a birth certificate goes, RE the youtube video: my own birth certificate is nothing like the one that is presented in that video*. Does that mean I’m a Kenyan, too?

    *(I can’t get my hands on the original document. New York, like Hawaii, has gone to a digitized system, so basically mine’s a print out with an official seal affixed.)

  404. #405 Malcolm
    March 27, 2010

    While I find the birther inanity quite amusing, my favourite Bird dropping on this thread so far has to be;

    Now you have to have more than two hypotheses in parallel in the scientific method.

    There is no such thing as EVIDENCE divorced from an hypothesis. The process of the scientific method is applying the evidence to see how it affects the relative plausibility of the hypotheses being judged.

    Three hypotheses in parallel is a minimum. Six would be better.

    For someone to turn up on a science blog abusing scientists for not following the scientific method, and then post that. Awesome.

  405. #406 MrFire
    March 27, 2010

    Graeme Bird: I’m totally with you on all this.

    Some additional things about Soetero. HE DOESN’T ACTUALLY EXIST. I mean, if he can’t produce a birth certificate, HOW CAN HE EXIST???

    Also, 9/11 was CAUSED by Soetero. Where was he on that day? No-one has EVER bothered to check before I made that assertion just now, and in the almost ten years since that tragedy, he has had plenty of time to fabricate alibis, eliminate body-doubles, and mindwipe anyone who ever came into contact with him. It’s up to the doubters to prove otherwise.

    Special relativity: indeed a scam. I see people breaking the light barrier on Star Trek all the time. When people tell me “it’s just a show”, I look them in the eye and ask, “Well, how do they make it look so realistic, then?” The louder they laugh at me, the more terrified they are on the inside.

    Global Warming is a TOTAL scam. I can prove it right now. I mean…there! Why is it so fucking COLD in my freezer? Answer THAT, BABYKILLERS!

    ———————————————-

    OK, Graeme – that’s just to establish that I’ve got your back. Now you know I’m one of the good guys, here are a few other things I’d like to share with you:

    *A tree falling in the forest with no-one around to hear it DOES make a sound. How do I know? I was there.

    *If you stand in the right place at the right time, the ‘invisible hand of the market’ actually becomes temporarily visible. And guess what? It’s flipping the bird at all of us.

    *Though I haven’t yet gone faster than light, I HAVE broken the sound barrier – but you must NEVER ask me how.

    *I don’t believe in the moon – I think it’s just the back of the sun.

    Despite these personal revelations, though, I still envy YOU. I wish I could make a career out of it the way you appear to have done. In fact, when I see you in action, I’m reminded of my favorite line from my favorite movie, The Terminator, where a police psychologist comments on soldier-from-the-future, Kyle Reese:

    You see clever this part is? How it doesn’t require a shred of proof? Most paranoid delusions are intricate, but this is BRILLIANT!

    Oh, the irony. He actually WAS from the future, as we all know!

  406. #407 Malcolm
    March 27, 2010

    Doh! Blockquote failure!
    The third and fourth paragraphs are the troll’s too.

  407. #408 blf
    March 27, 2010
    “What am I missing?”
    “You’re not scared of having a black man for president.”

    Yeah, that’s basically it. Obama is foreign. He’s international. He’s not a good-old white boy, so he’s not a *Real Amurican*.

    This is a bit of a puzzler, actually. Bird is (apparently) in convictland, and apparently was eligible to stand for election there, so the assumption is Bird is an Asstralian. Hence, its birtherism seems puzzling, nor is it clear why it’s scared that a (gasp!) black man is the President of a completely different country on the other side of the world (I concur that that’s probably part of what’s going on). The rest of its (known) kookiness isn’t confined to the USA, so the fact it has those non-rationalities as well isn’t a puzzle.

  408. #409 Jessa
    March 27, 2010

    Mr Fire @408, you took the words right out of my mouth. Nobody ever takes me seriously when I insist that the world is actually flat, and that Magellan just appeared to have sailed around the world by crawling across the underside! “Show me the evidence”, they say. No, show ME the evidence that he didn’t.

  409. #410 Bride of Shrek OM
    March 27, 2010

    I have heard NO claims from anyone saying that she is an old girlfriend of our prime minister

    ..to be fair if YOU had dated Kevin Rudd would you admit it publically either?

  410. #411 blf
    March 27, 2010

    [M]y own birth certificate is nothing like the one that is presented in that video*. Does that mean I’m a Kenyan, too?

    *(I can’t get my hands on the original document. …)

    Mine’s also nothing like that shown in the video (or other sites), and I do have the original, plus (this is a bit unusual) proof that it is the original. Therefore, I must be Kenyan.

    Isn’t NutterLogic fun?

  411. #412 blf
    March 27, 2010

    [T]he world is actually flat, and that Magellan just appeared to have sailed around the world by crawling across the underside!

    No, no, no! Magellan’s voyage was all faked in a movie studio. Just like the moon landings, JFK assassination, some twerp in Galilee, and the Egyptian Pyramids. I know. I went to Atlantis and talked to the cameraman.

  412. #413 MrFire
    March 27, 2010

    when I insist that the world is actually flat

    Oh great. You’re one of those ‘multi-dimensional’ types. The world is A ONE-DIMENSIONAL LINE, you stupid stupid stupid blockhead.

  413. #414 Jessa
    March 27, 2010

    The world is A ONE-DIMENSIONAL LINE, you stupid stupid stupid blockhead.

    You sound just like my closed-minded physical chemistry teacher, going on about wavefunctions and particles in a “one dimensional box”. As if. He also believed in the religion of special relativity. Deluded fool.

  414. #415 Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
    March 27, 2010

    And it doesn’t matter if it does check out. He’s ruining your country and yet you sheeple just cannot get it together to demand proof of eligibility FROM HIM. Not from the media or the factcheckers. But just from him as if he were a normal human being.

    So it doesn’t matter if he is in fact a natural born citizen, you’re going to keep these lawsuits up anyway because you hate him.

    That was refreshingly honest of you.

  415. #416 Epikt
    March 28, 2010

    Graeme Bird:

    You have no evidence in support of special relativity and you WILL NOT be coming up with evidence for this jive.

    Now you’re just lying. I’ve given you evidence. You haven’t addressed anything I posted, other than to pretend that none of it exists. You’re simply proving that you have no coherent argument against what I posted. You can keep shouting “Did not!!!” as much as you want, and you (and whatever little cadre of cranks and whackjobs form the self-reinforcing alternate reality in which you live) will, no doubt, convince yourselves that you’re all a shining beacon of truth in a hostile world gone terribly wrong. You aren’t. If this–denial of things for which there exists ample evidence–is the best you can do, all you’ve done is demonstrate that your only useful function in the universe is to fill in the extreme left-hand side of the bell curve.

    So it goes. But here’s another little problem for you RE Special Relativity. Go look up the kind of experiments they do at the Stanford Linear Accelerator. Find out what kind of accelerating field strengths are available, and find out the maximum kinetic energy attained by the accelerated particles. Use that information to calculate how long the accelerator needs to be, according to Newtonian physics. Then get a grown-up to do the relativistic calculation for you, or just look up the accelerator’s length. By how large a multiplicative factor do the answers differ?

    Really, you’re just embarrassing yourself now. All the “sheeple” here–the ones who respect knowledge, understand how science is done, and value rationality–are laughing at you, because you’re an almost-too-good-to-be-true personification of a paranoid crank. You’ve demonstrated repeatedly that you have no clue about something you’ve strongly asserted. That doesn’t necessarily prove that you’re equally clueless about the other things you say. But that’s the way I’d vote.

  416. #417 Malcolm
    March 28, 2010

    And it doesn’t matter if it does check out. He’s ruining your country and yet you sheeple just cannot get it together to demand proof of eligibility FROM HIM. Not from the media or the factcheckers. But just from him as if he were a normal human being.

    Obviously, the first 3 years of any US presidency should be spent by the President going door-to-door showing everyone his/her birth certificate, 2 forms of photographic ID, and a couple of pictures of ex-lovers.
    Otherwise, how can anyone know that they can be trusted?

  417. #418 desertfroglet
    March 28, 2010

    Crikey blogged about contenders for the seat of Dobell. Commenter No 6 provides a link to Bird’s platform and kindly includes several of the non-negotiable demands. This inclusion is fortunate because the demands don’t seem to be available at Bird’s blog anymore.

    There is also, I note, an entire blog dedicated to Bird’s inanity. (Other than his own one, that is.)

  418. #419 MrFire
    March 28, 2010

    Jessa, I see you’re not even trying to be a completely one-dimensional character, like me and Graeme Bird. I have little hope for you.

  419. #420 Jessa
    March 28, 2010

    MrFire: I’m sorry you feel that way. I thought that I had found a fellow believer. I guess I was wrong. I suppose you’re also one of these people that believe that this mythical place called “Australia” acutally exists.

  420. #421 Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
    March 28, 2010

    How is FF13 btw? I’m playing Pokemon Heartgold at the moment, shit is so cash.

    Pretty awesome, IMO. Voice acting is kind of meh, and I’m getting annoyed at Sony of America’s insistence of English because of it, but other then that.

  421. #422 Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
    March 28, 2010

    Oh, and to the guy who asked “What am I missing?”

    Being a natural born US Citizen is in fact in the constitutional requirements to be President.

    Obama is, so it’s immaterial, but it is in the requisites.

  422. #423 Meathead
    March 28, 2010

    Alright Bird, you’ve got us. I’ll come clean about our President if no one else will here. Barack Hussein Fidel Sotero Cubano Obamo was born in a small fishing village on the north coast of the largest continent on the planet Klingon where his family made a meager living selling black market phasers to gangs of young thugs involved in the drug trade. After the Federation and the Klingon Empire made peace his family quietly emigrated to Hawaii using false papers. He later moved with his harem of underage Thai concubines to Chicago where he became a political activist and clandestine Klingon agent. To this day he runs a Klingon spy network out of the whitehouse and uses his “wife” Michelleo to move kilogram quantities of “ghack”, a highly refined version of the Klingon delicacy “ghaa” directly out of the whitehouse basement.

  423. #424 blf
    March 28, 2010

    There is also, I note, an entire blog dedicated to Bird’s inanity.

    Oooooooh! This is the gift that keeps on giving. Besides talking about/documenting Less-Brains-Than-A-Stuffed-Turkey’s rantings, Less-Brains-… itself comments on that blog. A classic ?almost-too-good-to-be-true personification of a paranoid crank? indeed!

  424. #425 Meathead
    March 28, 2010

    American Finance. The Big Bang. Special Relativity. The global warming fraud. The need for public vigilance.

    Wait, special relativity too? Are you guys sure this isn’t a pure troll now. I mean I had my doubts but fuck me, a special relativity denier too? reminds me of when I met a neutron denialist. Seriously, he didn’t think there were neutrons, all a conspiracy, Jews, Freemasons, Illuminati, Al Gore, etc…

  425. #426 Jessa
    March 28, 2010

    Meathead, you forgot the part about the Obamo family bringing Klingon time-travel technology with them so that they could go back to 1941 and insert Barry’s name into the Sunday, August 13 issue of the Hawaii Advertiser.

    Or was I not supposed to bring that up?

  426. #427 Meathead
    March 28, 2010

    Time travel, yeah well corrupting newspapers is only the beginning. It’s a little known fact that the Obamas also started the hundred years war and talked Hitler into annexing the Sudentenland.

  427. #428 Jessa
    March 28, 2010

    Meathead: The Elders have informed me that you have disclosed too much. Please report to the hidden base ship at {redacted} for decommissioning.

  428. #429 jafafahots
    March 28, 2010

    Graeme Bird, you stupid racist piece of shit.

    You know that the document produced is valid. If you paid any attention at all, you would know that Hawaii converted to electronic records decades ago and ANY person born there requesting a birth certificate will receive exactly what Obama released.

    If you had looked into it even the slightest bit, you would find that tens of millions of Americans have similar birth certificates. Birth certificates that lack features that racists like you and Loud Dobbs never gave a thought to, never worried about, never required for one second until suddenly confronted with the horror of a non-white president.

    Here is a copy of MY birth certificate. You’ll see that it doesn’t include the things you racists suddenly demand.

    No doctor’s name, no name of the hospital.
    If I had run or president, you would not have demanded it… and if inadvertently confronted with it you would not have seen anything wrong, would have had no objection.

    Because I’m white.

    There are two reasons why all responsible people have rejected your idiotic arguments.

    1. Because, not being blinded by racism, we’re able to see the facts clearly and see that they are not only baseless, but preposterous.

    2. Because, not being blinded by racism, we’re able to SEE racism, smell the stench of it, a mile away.

    This is a place where people congregate who evaluate evidence and try to come to a reasoned conclusion. You aren’t going to win any converts here.

    Want a receptive audience? Go to your local KKK or White Citizens Council meeting, you disgusting piece of scum.

  429. #430 John Scanlon FCD
    March 28, 2010

    craig.perko, just wondering if you are one of those who learned from the ‘news’ media that Greenpeace was responsible for blowing up and sinking some ship?

    This is apparently quite a widespread belief in the USA.

  430. #431 Meathead
    March 28, 2010

    Jessa, I knew the Elders would come for me. That’s why I’m already at an undisclosed offworld location. They’ll never decommission me. My positronic brain was guaranteed for a million years and I intend to make use of all of them!

  431. #432 John Scanlon FCD
    March 28, 2010

    Graeme Bird OMG, it’s the actual editor of The Quibbler! I want to know more about how Stubby Boardman, lead singer of the Hobgoblins, misled us all into thinking he was actually Sirius Black, I mean Barack Obama. Do tell!

  432. #433 Elf Eye
    March 28, 2010

    I just don’t get this birther argument. President Obama has a U.S. passport, and the U.S. Department of State is scrupulous when it comes to issuing one of those. No legitimate documents = no passport. So years before Obama ran for president, his citizenship had been examined and verified. Oh, wait: the Department of State must have been infiltrated with agents who conspired to cover up the truth, having been visited by Dr. Who, who arrived in the Tardis to inform them that in the future Barack Hussein Soetero would run for president and they needed to establish a cover for him. Okay, I got it now.

  433. #434 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “You know that the document produced is valid.”

    No you are lying its a fake. Yes you’d wonder how he got his passport and all that. Its not for me to say. We still have the problem that he’s concealing his documents and has taken a wrecking-ball to the finances of the US.

  434. #435 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    This new bill is costed at 2.6 trillion in the next ten years before rationing. So its a killer bill. It will kill people and destroy the budgets utterly.

    The usurper knows this. He knows he’s destroying the Republic.

  435. #436 OurDeadSelves
    March 28, 2010

    Is it too late to comment on this thread? ‘Cos now I am totally and completely belligerently drunk and now I REALLY REALLY REALLY need to say my piece:

    Bird: Fuck you. Fuck you in the ass with a rusty chainsaw. You have evidence of Obama’s “legitimacy” and you refuse to accept it for what it it. Plus, you’re a mother fucking Australian and I’m not at all sure why you care in the least bit.

    2.6 trillion is not a game killer for the American people. WE HAVE THE MOST PRODUCTIVE ECONOMY IN THE WORLD. We’re not some fucking island nation built on the back of convicts– we can handle the costs. Plus, you have yet to tell me where those figures are coming from.

    So, in conclusion: fuck you. Fuck you very much.

    p.s. To all of the regular Pharyngulites: I am really really really drunk right now, so if I’ve offended anyone but Mr Bird, my apologies. I’m pissed off and full of beer.

  436. #437 John Morales
    March 28, 2010

    OurDeadSelves, nah, no offense taken — either as an Aussie or as a regular.

    PS What is the opportunity (not just fiscal) cost of the Iraq war to Americans?

    (Yes, that last was rhetorical.)

  437. #438 negentropyeater
    March 28, 2010

    Birther Bird is still there?

    Firstly, $2.6 trillion over the next 10 years represent about 1.5% of GDP
    (compare this with “a totalitarian takeover of healthcare”, 16% of GDP)
    Secondly, this is not an incremental cost. As a matter of fact the CBO calculated that this bill will save Americans money.

    If you want an example of something that really “kills people” and destroys the economy, think of the military expenditure and the Iraq war.

    Birther bird, you are loon. You are utterly ignorant, you can’t even calculate, you don’t know what words mean. You don’t know what is a “cost”, what the verb “kill” means, what the word “fact” means. You are also a delusional paranoid fool. These are all facts.

  438. #439 Militant Agnostic
    March 28, 2010

    Mands @245

    Oh lordy, Bird’s a fellow Aussie. I apologise on behalf of all Australians for his existence. Unfortunately it’s probably the result of the excellent universal health care system we have here.

    Well, I must say your excellent universal Australian health care system has done a piss poor job of treating of Graeme Birdbrain’s mental illness(es).

    Orac likes to refer to crank magnetism resulting a a trifecta of woo, but this character gets me an instant blackout on my whackaloon bingo card.

    I hope he is not sent to the dungeon as he is a such a shining example of evidence and reason oppositional defiance disorder (If it isn’t in new DSM V, it should be). I think seeing his full on fucknuttery might convince the odd crank to reconsider their position when the see the sort of company they are keeping.

  439. #440 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    No Epikt. You haven’t come up with any evidence that can support special relativity.

    Prove that “space-time” exists.

    Overcome the Dingle refutation.

    Show that time dilation exists without reference to alleged microscopic entities.

    One may have relativistic effects. But these alleged effects are not going to prove special relativity. Which brings in all sorts of religious-like examples of reification into science.

  440. #441 OurDeadSelves
    March 28, 2010

    JESUS CHRIST, GRAEME, GO TO BED!

  441. #442 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “Firstly, $2.6 trillion over the next 10 years represent about 1.5% of GDP”

    I doesn’t matter. The Americans will not be paying this. So whose going to pay? The Chinese?

    See this is just all delusion.

  442. #443 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “Now where is the nurses who helped deliver young Obama.”

    “Where is his old girlfriends?”

    Where is the English teacher who failed to teach the Bird about subject-verb agreement?

    Again. Where are the other young Mothers who remember being in the hospital with Ann Dunham. Where are the nurses who remember her there?

    Scroll forward 18 years. Now this basketballer. Good-looking kid. Where are all his girlfriends?

    You people know nothing about this fellow. And he’s the first person in world history wherein third parties are expected to prove eligibility for him.

    You guys are not smart. This is what you have to remember. You are blockheads.

  443. #444 OurDeadSelves
    March 28, 2010

    I doesn’t matter. The Americans will not be paying this.

    1) I’m wasted and I’m typing better than you
    and
    2) < 2% GDP is a piffling amount. It may be a lot to you, ass hat, but it’s a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the American economy. And as I have said before, I (and many other Americans) don’t mind the extra cost if it makes things a wee bit easier for the poorest in our nation.

  444. #445 OurDeadSelves
    March 28, 2010

    2) Okay, maybe not. Anyway, > 2% of our economy is a piffling amount. 2+ trillion may seem like a lot to you in you small mindedness, but trust me, it’s a drop in the bucket compared to American GDP.

  445. #446 Kel, OM
    March 28, 2010

    You guys are not smart. This is what you have to remember. You are blockheads.

    People here really should listen to Graeme Bird. This guy is so intelligent that he can spot the flaws in modern cosmology that is eluding those so-called experts. And keep a look-out for him showing where abiogenesis research is failing. Mere mortal minds like mine didn’t think there was much between the big bang theory and DNA formation, but this is why we need the likes of Graeme Bird to show where the flaws in our thinking are.

    This man is truly among the greats, and when a mind like that calls people blockheads you know that’s a generous appraisal. We are but ants to the greatness that is Graeme Bird.

  446. #447 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    You are an idiot. Your typing skills have been noted.

    Imagine supporting a bill that you will not be able to pay for. And its a eugenicists bill as well. This is explicit in Ezekial Immanuels writing. He’s the key architect of this monstrosity.

    You are broke. You are skint. You cannot pay your bills. To even suggest that you can shows delusion and financial ignorance. Your financial situation is laughable.

    And you cannot bring yourself to accept that this fellow is effortlessly bringing your Republic down.

  447. #448 Walton
    March 28, 2010

    Alright Bird, you’ve got us. I’ll come clean about our President if no one else will here. Barack Hussein Fidel Sotero Cubano Obamo was born in a small fishing village on the north coast of the largest continent on the planet Klingon where his family made a meager living selling black market phasers to gangs of young thugs involved in the drug trade. After the Federation and the Klingon Empire made peace his family quietly emigrated to Hawaii using false papers. He later moved with his harem of underage Thai concubines to Chicago where he became a political activist and clandestine Klingon agent. To this day he runs a Klingon spy network out of the whitehouse and uses his “wife” Michelleo to move kilogram quantities of “ghack”, a highly refined version of the Klingon delicacy “ghaa” directly out of the whitehouse basement.

    :-D :-D

  448. #449 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    Its getting to the point where you people cannot go to the “bathroom” without the Chinese lending you a penny.

    And you just wanted to have a brand new health care system that increased and did not bring costs down.

  449. #450 WowbaggerOM
    March 28, 2010

    Is this idiot still going? Good grief. Still, seeing this makes knowing he’s here less painful:

    Comment by Graeme Bird blocked. [unkill] ?[show comment]

    Squawk away, shithead. I won’t see a word of it.

  450. #451 jafafahots
    March 28, 2010

    I lie?

    Because I have a birth certificate that is similar to Obamas?

    That means I’m in on the conspiracy. As is my aunt who was the town clerk where I was born. As is the state of new york which issued it, and declared it valid when they issued my ID.

    And the state of Florida which validated it to give me ID there.

    And the state of California which validated it to establish me here.

    It couldn’t be that there’s a battle for supremacy in Graeme’s head between the cretinous half and the pathetic cowardly little racist half.

    No, there’s a conspiracy of millions to install a man as president just to make one pathetic cowardly little australian fuckwit shit his pants due to a glimpse of a touch of off-white.

    Graeme, you are an entertaining little reminder that you can NEVER underestimate the ability of a person to be delusional, stupid and hateful.

  451. #452 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    You are just a delusional idiot mate. You are in fact a big bang believer right? There is no end to the unreason of you people. Since you have rejected reason, and are stooging yourself about that fact, your views on many subjects appear to be utterly predictable.

    Your belief in the big bang, and pretty much everything else, is simply an issue of faith. As I said Scienceblogs is just a church where leftist projection is part of the schtick, by which you blame your own antipathy towards the scientific method, onto your opponents.

  452. #453 Rorschach
    March 28, 2010

    Dear Graeme Bird @ 440,

    thank you for asking commenters on an internet blog to prove to you personally that space-time and time dilation exist.

    If you would be so kind to look up “argument from personal incredulity” on said internet and then get back to us, thank you.

    On second thought, don’t get back to us.

  453. #454 sunioc
    March 28, 2010

    Again. Where are the other young Mothers who remember being in the hospital with Ann Dunham. Where are the nurses who remember her there?

    Okay, you’ve repeated this particular bit of bullshit about 20 times today, and nobody’s commented on it yet. Where are the other young mothers and nurses who remember being in the hospital with -your- mother, Graeme Bird?

    Obama’s mother wasn’t anybody particularly special or memorable, was she? Why would you expect an expectant mother, someone about to go through or just having gone through the most painful experience of her life, to remember a single woman who also happened to be giving birth and that they knew for maybe a day or 2? And the nurses see thousands of expectant mothers a year. They’re certainly not going to remember a specific woman 48 years later.

    Tell me, birdbrain, what was the name of the person who sat next to you during english class in 5th grade? I’ll bet that was probably less than 48 years ago. You can remember that, right? No? How about the teacher’s name? Still nothing? Huh… guess we shouldn’t expect nurses and fellow mothers who happened to share a hospital with Ann Dunham in 1961 to remember her either, should we?

  454. #455 Kel, OM
    March 28, 2010

    You are in fact a big bang believer right?

    In the same way I’m a believer that the earth orbits the sun. When a theory is able to predict previously unobserved phenomena such as the cosmic microwave background radiation, or the ratios of hydrogen to helium to lithium present in nature – then there might actually be something to the theory.

    So what’s your argument against the big bang theory? What is the problem with the science of it? I’m betting that you don’t actually know much about the theory, so instead of demonstrating its falsehood you attack those who support it. Yet that’s not how science works. You blockhead…

  455. #456 jafafahots
    March 28, 2010

    OK Graeme… if the universe was “poofed” into existence by God relatively recently… answer me this – do you believe, as Ken Ham as others of your ilk do, that non-whites are the “children of Ham” who are cursed and all that shit?

    That couldn’t possibly have anything to do with your upset at a president with African heritage, would it?

  456. #457 John Morales
    March 28, 2010
  457. #458 negentropyeater
    March 28, 2010

    I doesn’t matter. The Americans will not be paying this. So whose going to pay? The Chinese?

    What don’t you understand with:

    Secondly, this is not an incremental cost. As a matter of fact the CBO calculated that this bill will save Americans money.

    That this bill doesn’t represent more than 1.5% of the economy is a refutation of your foolish claim that this is a totalitarian takeover of healthcare, which represents more than ten times that amount.

    You are a complete nutcase. Anybody who brings up the Dingle refutation is a complete nutcase. Anybody who asks whether spacetime, a mathematical model, exists is a complete nutcase. Anybody who thinks Obama wasn’t born in the USA is a complete nutcase. Anybody who thinks this isn’t his real name is a complete nutcase. Anybody who believes that Reagan’s “strategy” was to bankrupt the USSR is a complete nutcase.

    You are completely nuts. Go and see a doctor, Get help soon. Take the appropriate medication.

  458. #459 Liberal
    March 28, 2010

    Link to his blog sent to his Sheriff’s Department.

  459. #460 truth machine, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Graeme Bird is an insane fuckwit. It is pointless to argue with him.

  460. #461 Kel, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Your belief in the big bang, and pretty much everything else, is simply an issue of faith.

    Yep, it’s all faith.

    That my computer uses semiconducting atoms particularly arranged in order to create logic gates – faith. Scientists don’t know anything, you can easily explain the computer with magic smoke as you can with electronic circuitry. And planes? They may seem to work according to Newtonian physics, but angels flapping their wings to hold up the metal works just as well. It’s a matter of faith…

    Meanwhile back in reality, science as an empirical measure of the universe has a proven track record. The fact that we are having this conversation now is testament to that. Science works, and you know this as much as me otherwise you’re a fully-fledged hypocrite for using a computer. The fact that you don’t understand how Big Bang Theory works as a successful falsifiable model for many observations about the universe. Do you even understand the significance of the discovery that led to the 1978 nobel prize in physics? Do you understand anything about the ratios of atoms in the universe? Do you understand anything about red shifting? There’s reasons why physicists hold the Big Bang Theory, and if you’re going to dismiss that then you need to demonstrate scientifically the invalidity of it.

    Attack me all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that The Big Bang Theory is the currently accepted model of cosmology among those who actually know about the topic. What have you got to show otherwise? I’m betting you’ve got nothing. Care to show otherwise?

  461. #462 Kel, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Graeme Bird is an insane fuckwit. It is pointless to argue with him.

    Where were you 5 minutes ago? I just wasted 5 minutes I’m never getting back…

  462. #463 jafafahots
    March 28, 2010

    scary thing about his blog is the number of comments he gets.

    And here I thought the worst thing about Australia was the venomous nasty NON-human creatures.

  463. #464 beckysharper
    March 28, 2010

    quote

    Well, I must say your excellent universal Australian health care system has done a piss poor job of treating of Graeme Birdbrain’s mental illness(es).

    quote

    He gets his pills for free; we can’t always be sure he takes them, can we?

  464. #465 beckysharper
    March 28, 2010

    Oops – no beer, just red wine!

  465. #466 Kel, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Well, I must say your excellent universal Australian health care system has done a piss poor job of treating of Graeme Birdbrain’s mental illness(es).

    Mental illness is one area of health that our government has really failed on.

  466. #467 desertfroglet
    March 28, 2010

    @459

    Link to his blog sent to his Sheriff’s Department.

    In NSW?

    @463

    scary thing about his blog is the number of comments he gets.

    Most of them are his. He’s quite Davison-ian in the magnitude of his commenting.

  467. #468 negentropyeater
    March 28, 2010

    Birther Bird,

    it has been demonstrated that Dingle’s refutation is equivallent to adopting the Newtonian concept of universal time, which has been proven wrong time and time again. Check the error it makes in the calculation of the perihelion precession of Mercury’s orbit as the first historical evidence (90 years ago!) and compare with the extremely precise result from Special Relativity.

    Dingle’s refutation is typical of nuts like you: it pressuposes that a theory is wrong and proceeds to demonstrating that it is wrong. Circle reasoning is what nuts like you seem to relish with everything. Faithheads do the same with God’s existence, they assume he exists and demonstrate that he exists. You do the same with everything : you assume healthcare reform is a bad thing and proceed to demonstrate that it’s a bad thing. You assume that Obama wasn’t born in the USA, and proceed to prove to yourself that on this basis, he wasn’t born in the USA.

    You are a dangerous nutcase. That’s why when you saw that this thread was about dangerous nuts you felt the need to entertain us and provide us with further evidence that these people do exist. Thank you, it has been fun.

    But really, go and get help. Seek medical advice. And don’t forget to take the medications that will be prescribed to you.

  468. #469 negentropyeater
    March 28, 2010

    Oh this Bird is really really nuts.

    He’s got this thread
    http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/02/01/special-buoyancy/#comments

    with 73 comments ! Seventy three.

    And almost all of them are his own. He must spend so much time writing comments to his own comments.

    Poor chap. He really needs to get medical advice fast.

  469. #470 Walton
    March 28, 2010

    Link to his blog sent to his Sheriff’s Department.

    What? Sheriffs in Australia, and most other countries in the Commonwealth, are not police; they’re civil court officers who are responsible for enforcing court judgments and providing security for the courts (similar to “bailiffs” or “marshals” in the United States). Any suspected criminal activity in Australia should be reported to the state police force, not the sheriff’s department.

  470. #471 Kristjan Wager
    March 28, 2010

    This has been an interesting train-wreck. Bird-brain is completely nuts (something I already knew from Deltoid), and he seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding of the concept “burden of proof”. Personally, I wouldn’t miss him if he was banished to the dungeon until he provided evidence for any of his claims.

  471. #472 negentropyeater
    March 28, 2010

    bah, I think Bird-brain felt compelled to comment on this thread when he saw PZ was talking about dangerous nuts. He wanted to provide us with a practical example.

  472. #473 Matt Penfold
    March 28, 2010

    bah, I think Bird-brain felt compelled to comment on this thread when he saw PZ was talking about dangerous nuts. He wanted to provide us with a practical example.

    I doubt he knows just how well he succeeded.

  473. #474 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding of the concept “burden of proof””

    Proof of total irrationality on your part. Here you are actually pleading for a handicap for your pathetic ideas. Its true you dumb leftists need a handicap. But I’m not inclined to give you one.

    There is no burden of proof. Epistemological failure by your moronic self. When we compare hypothesis in parallel nothing gets a special head-start just on account of leftist whining.

  474. #475 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “it has been demonstrated that Dingle’s refutation is equivallent to adopting the Newtonian concept of universal time, which has been proven wrong time and time again.”

    No thats wrong. The Dingle refutation stands. Special relativity is incoherent and inconsistent. Since velocity is relative we have no right to claim which object is stationary and which object is moving.

  475. #476 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “thank you for asking commenters on an internet blog to prove to you personally that space-time and time dilation exist.”

    How about space-time? There is no such entity. What a moronic notion. Whereas every waking moment proves the existence of space, no evidence has ever emerged for such a thing as space-time. There is no such unicorn.

    But hey? Its your irrational religion. Perhaps I ought to be more sensitive.

  476. #477 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    Since velocity is relative there can be no such thing as time dilation. Hence any relativistic effects that seem to be causing this phenomenon, must be due to something else other then velocity alone. It is a failure of science therefore for these public servants to not have found out the real cause of what their instruments are telling them.

  477. #478 John Morales
    March 28, 2010

    Wow, the Bird-spew is coming thick and fast.

    Heh.

  478. #479 Kristjan Wager
    March 28, 2010

    Proof of total irrationality on your part. Here you are actually pleading for a handicap for your pathetic ideas. Its true you dumb leftists need a handicap. But I’m not inclined to give you one.

    There is no burden of proof. Epistemological failure by your moronic self. When we compare hypothesis in parallel nothing gets a special head-start just on account of leftist whining.

    Thanks again for demonstrating your complete lack of understanding of well, anything. Bird-brain -> killfile

    A question for the Australian commenters here – is Bird-brain representative of the Liberal-Democratic Party? If he is, I might just have to register to vote in the next Aussie election, and vote against that party (I am actually considering this anyway, given the fact that one of the major parties is now run by AGW-denialists).

  479. #480 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “Dingle’s refutation is typical of nuts like you: it pressuposes that a theory is wrong and proceeds to demonstrating that it is wrong.”

    You religious moron. You ought to castrate yourself now to be sure that the dumb gene doesn’t get passed on. You are assuming a theory to be right. And you go on assuming a theory is right even after it is proved wrong on totally unassailable logical grounds.

    Dummy. Like everyone here caught up in total delusion and projection.

  480. #481 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    Donkey of the year goes to Kristjan. On account of his gutlessness and unreason in reaching for the mindless burden of proof prejudice. Proving he is no better than the most stupid yokel religious devotee.

  481. #482 WowbaggerOM
    March 28, 2010

    Hey, Graeme Bird – your clock is chiming eight o’clock: Loon, loon, loon, loon; loon, loon, loon, loon!

  482. #483 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    negentropyeater @ 472:

    bah, I think Bird-brain felt compelled to comment on this thread when he saw PZ was talking about dangerous nuts. He wanted to provide us with a practical example.

    Having read some of its overwhelming idiocy, I agree.

  483. #484 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “OK Graeme… if the universe was “poofed” into existence by God relatively recently… a”

    Goodness me. This really is a morons congregation.

  484. #485 stuartvo
    March 28, 2010

    Birthers are the smartest people in the world. No question about it.

    No-one in the Illinois legislature at the time that Obama became a senator picked up that he’s not an American.

    No-one in the state department/FBI realised he’s a danged furriner when he became a federal senator.

    Hillary Clinton’s team never dug up this damning piece of evidence against him during her legendarily bare-knuckle campaign for the Democratic nomination.

    And the entire Republican party aparatus with all its muck-rackers and swift-boaters failed to notice his non-American-ness when McCain was running for President.

    Yet the Birthers spotted it right away. Such clever little racists political operatives! (You’d think his alarming non-White-ness would have clued-in all the others,though.)

  485. #486 Matt Penfold
    March 28, 2010

    Goodness me. This really is a morons congregation.

    You are the moron, and you cannot have a congregation of one.

    I will accept though that since you started posting here the average intelligence of the comments has decreased. If we remove your comments from the equation though, the normal high level of intellectual discourse is resumed.

  486. #487 MrFire
    March 28, 2010

    It might be worth noting that

    GRAEME BIRD

    rearranges to:

    BIG DREAMER

    Just sayin’

  487. #488 desertfroglet
    March 28, 2010

    is Bird-brain representative of the Liberal-Democratic Party?

    It’s difficult to know. They’re such an insignificant group.

    What amazes me is he managed to find 181 other people to vote for him in Dobell in 2007. That’s a whopping 0.2% of the vote. (There was an 8.7% swing to Labor in that seat.)

    Someone in one of those links I posted earlier suggested that it would be entertaining to have the LDP debate the CEC (the Australian LaRouchites). You can’t imagine how much I’d pay to witness that.

  488. #489 stuartvo
    March 28, 2010

    Argument by assertion. Obama’s a Kenyan ‘cos Graeme Bird said so. Relativity is a crock because Graeme Bird said so. Universal healthcare is a totalitarian take-over because Graeme Bird said so.

    And everyone else is stupid because they fail to see the correctness of these statements. Because Graeme Bird said so.

  489. #490 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Prove that “space-time” exists.

    Bird, you are one seriously deluded wackaloon. Unless you believe in the purest form of solipcism then you have to accept space-time exists.

  490. #491 sunioc
    March 28, 2010

    Bird, you are one seriously deluded wackaloon. Unless you believe in the purest form of solipcism then you have to accept space-time exists.

    Well, he does live in his own little world…

  491. #492 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    MrFire @ 487:

    It might be worth noting that

    GRAEME BIRD

    rearranges to:

    BIG DREAMER

    Just sayin’

    It also anagrams to these:

    Dame Big Err
    Bared Grime
    Rabid Merge
    Drab Regime
    Marred Gibe
    Brag Dire Me
    Garbed Mire

    ;D

  492. #493 Bastion Of Sass
    March 28, 2010

    Goats on fire!!

    I have nothing more to say.

  493. #494 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    You are just a delusional idiot mate.

    Nope, you are the idjit fuckwit.

    Since velocity is relative there can be no such thing as time dilation.

    So speaks an idjit fuckwit without any training or cogency. Any scientist knows better. Assclam.

    by which you blame your own antipathy towards the scientific method,

    Again, you have no understanding of the scientific method, being the idjit assclam loser you are. You need to stop using the term, since you are not using the scientific method. You are the shithead loser.

    This really is a morons congregation.

    No, that is when you look in the mirror, and see you and your family.

    Still waiting for this minor thing called evidence, which is absolutely required to be presented by someone using the scientific method. And idjit assclam loser assertions by you is not evidence, only opinions. Bad loser opinions at that.

  494. #495 Carlie
    March 28, 2010

    Wait, I’ve got it! It’s not that he’s a Kenyan…

    Again. Where are the other young Mothers who remember being in the hospital with Ann Dunham. Where are the nurses who remember her there?

    Scroll forward 18 years. Now this basketballer. Good-looking kid. Where are all his girlfriends?

    OH MY GOD HE’S A CLONE. That’s why there are no people who have come forward to attest to having run across him in their past! Obama was created in a laboratory! A secret government laboratory in the, um, Antilles, which is why he isn’t actually an American and has nobody in Kenya who remembers him growing up either! He was made from a DNA mixture of Stalin, Marx, Hitler, and some random black guy so he wouldn’t look too Hitler-ish, and incubated in a tank of nutrient goo until he reached full adulthood. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW.

  495. #496 windy
    March 28, 2010

    WHERE ARE THE TRANSITIONAL FORMS?

  496. #497 blf
    March 28, 2010

    Bird, here’s a chance to demonstrate you can engage in productive discussion:

     ?  Do you know what the word ?evidence? means?
     ?  If not, do you what what a ?dictionary? is?
     ?  Please give an example of evidence for (or against) the following claim: ?Graeme Bird got 182 votes in the 2007 Australian federal election.?

    Simple. Three questions. And your answers are…

  497. #498 kiki
    March 28, 2010

    Having read Mr Bird’s cogent and enlightening comments I have come to the conclusion that maybe we’re all just like brains in jars, man, or maybe it’s just like The Matrix, yeah? And I hereby proclaim that Mr Bird is a credulous loser brainwashed retard sheeple until he can conclusively prove otherwise.

  498. #499 beckysharper
    March 28, 2010

    Thanks Carlie – it really does make sense. In fact, we’re ALL CLONES CREATED BY THE GIANT SUPER-COMPUTER.

    On a side-note, I’m half-Australian and half-American. Is there any hope for my sanity with these wing-nuts running around?

  499. #500 Epikt
    March 28, 2010

    Graeme Bird:

    No thats wrong. The Dingle refutation stands. Special relativity is incoherent and inconsistent. Since velocity is relative we have no right to claim which object is stationary and which object is moving.

    See, this is why people laugh at you. The equivalence of inertial reference frames is the foundation of the whole fucking theory. You’ve just said that special relativity can’t be right because its foundation is correct. Special Relativity is constructed precisely so that the concept of an absolutely stationary reference frame has no meaning. Ferfucksake, read an elementary physics book and stop humiliating yourself.

  500. #501 Epikt
    March 28, 2010

    To head off a potential outbreak of pedantry, modify previous post as follows:

    The equivalence of inertial reference frames, along with the frame invariance of the speed of light, are the foundations of the whole fucking theory.

  501. #502 a_ray_in_dilbert_space
    March 28, 2010

    Graeme Bird,
    OK, dude, I am a physicist. I have studied relativity–special and general. Time dilation has been observed even in air travel. What is more, GPS satellite signals have to be corrected for relativistic effects. As to the Dingle “refutation”, it is a product of the same inappropriate logic that leads to the Twin Paradox. The two observers each see the clocks in the other’s frame of reference running more slowly, and each sees length in the direction of motion foreshortened. Now if they get into an argument about it, and want to turn around and see which set of measuring devices is “right”, guess what, somebody has to decelerate and turn around, so they are no longer in an inertial reference frame.

    Graeme, you are flat-assed wrong about this. If you were right, GPS satellites would not work. Now, an intelligent person might look at this and start to wonder what else he might be wrong about. For you, I won’t hold my breath.

  502. #503 blf
    March 28, 2010

    Oh, this gets better and better. Apparently, Less-Brains-Than-a-Stuffed-Turkey believes in something called the ?expanding Earth theory?, The Movement Of Continents Is Impossible Without New Matter Creation.

    Where would the force otherwise come from? How would that force get traction? The continents are huge. And they are fully locked in since the surrounding oceans have solid sea floors. Only the huge forces generated by new matter creation could even POSSIBLY explain the movement of a body as large as Antarctica.

    … And the only reason the expanding earth theory isn?t accepted already is that the Big Bang theory IS.

    … [It's] hard for me to be patient with real dummies like Phil Plait who adheres to this most stupid of paradigms with dogmatic zeal. Plait, lacking any evidence for his theology, seems to have monopolised the skeptic mantle and taken almost all the impressionable young idiots along with him.

    There is no theory more stupid than the big bang. Even the global warming scare bows down to its flaming light of dumb.

    It is easier to be a third-rate theologian than a top-flight scientist and this is the reason for the big bang theory. Our task is to proceed forward with our thinking as though the Big Bang theory has already been defeated.

    We want to proceed over the dead body of the big bang and find out how new matter is created and what moves continents.

    Birther. Truther. AGW-denialist. Physics kook. Geology kook. DDT-ban-caused-a-holocaust. Apparent anti-vaxxer. Has an entire blog dedicated to laughing at its stupidity.

    First class idiot.

  503. #504 wild.halcyon
    March 28, 2010

    Do you see what happens when you all Godwin too many threads? The world Godwins you right back.

  504. #505 Antiochus Epiphanes
    March 28, 2010

    I have a lot of reading to do, I suppose, if I am ever going to figure out how a post about terrorism has erupted into a discussion of the nature of space-time…erg,

  505. #506 desertfroglet
    March 28, 2010

    blf @ 503. Pure gold! If you go through that thread, you can see how he’s deleted whole comments and replaced them with more of his ranting.

    This is my favourite comment so far from our new-found chew toy.

    The Phil Berg/Orly Taitz side of the argument would be right even if they turned out to be wrong in every last specific detail. They are not wrong but they would still be right.

    How on earth did this nutter get selected to represent a political party?

  506. #507 Carlie
    March 28, 2010

    How on earth does a person like that get created? I have to think that at age 3 he wasn’t so sure that he was right in everything no matter what; maybe had a propensity for it, but how does such a thing get nurtured to the point that dirt, space, and time itself become unreal entities for him? Is it narcissistic personality disorder, or just too many gold stars on his homework by bored teachers who never bothered to read it, or what?

  507. #508 mistermuz
    March 28, 2010

    I want to compare old Graepants here to Gene Ray, as the simlarities in expression are numerous (minus the font creativity). But say what you will about that guy, at least he has a theory. Grae Grae has nothing but a collection of other people’s absurd contrarianisms.

  508. #509 blf
    March 28, 2010

    How on earth does a person like that get created?

    There’s a mummy and a daddy and they… well, I’m not sure just what they do on a planet with pink skies, polka-dot clouds, and yellow oceans.

  509. #510 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    blf:

    Oh, this gets better and better. Apparently, Less-Brains-Than-a-Stuffed-Turkey believes in something called the ?expanding Earth theory?

    FFS. I’m not surprised in the least that Game Bird has fastened on to a notion which had some popularity in the ’50s. That might go some little way in explaining his complete lack of understanding or familiarity with what’s going on in the 21st century.

  510. #511 iambilly
    March 28, 2010

    Graeme Bird: I believe that the Dingle Refuation was wiped away at the same time as the Klingon refutation. And, After reading the dingles and klingons you added to Pharyngula, all I can say is thank the FSM for toilet paper.

    All: Don’t you wish you could go back to a 100 or 200 level college course and write a paper in Birdese: I will prove in this paper that Adolf Hitler won the American Civil War after dropping an atomic bomb on the Treaty of Versailles from a Goodyear blimp. And if you don’t believe me, look it up. But I won’t cite any statement. It’s not my job.

  511. #512 Sven DiMilo
    March 28, 2010

    maybe we’re all just like brains in jars, man

    Ha! Now that’s stupid!!

    Jars?????

    AHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

    that’s like the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard, man.

    It’s vats.
    Brains in vats. Everybody knows this (or at least intuits it).

    Now, an intelligent person might look at this and start to wonder what else he might be wrong about. For you, I won’t hold my breath.

    (heh. Jars. srsly?)

  512. #513 Shala
    March 28, 2010

    You know, when I go to bed, wake up, there’s 150 more comments from when I slept, and Bird is still posting, you know something is wrong with the world.

    So, anyone curious about how much he’s posted?

    He has posted from March 27, 1:53 p.m. up until March 28, 6:22 a.m.

    He was sitting here trolling this blog for nearly 17 hours straight.

    That’s more time than David Mathews, though granted with far less posts.

    Anyone else looking forward to when the clownshoe comes back again?

  513. #514 Notkieran
    March 28, 2010

    It may be that I’m fresh from commenting on the God of War thread, but am I the only person who’s thinking about the terrorist group in Metal Gear Solid 2?

    Admittedly, this man only _wishes_ he were that tough.

  514. #515 OurDeadSelves
    March 28, 2010

    Ditto, Shala. At least I’m not longer drunk.

    Apropos of nothing, really, but comment #508:

    But say what you will about that guy, at least he has a theory.

    Totally reminded me of the Big Lebowski:

    Say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it’s an ethos.

  515. #516 desertfroglet
    March 28, 2010

    Shala @ 513

    If he’s in Sydney, that’s a 15 hr difference between local time and the time posted on the blog, which means he started posting at some awful time in the morning.

    OTOH, he seems to be a Kiwi by birth, so maybe he’s back in the Land of the Long White Cloud, which would give him an extra mumble mumble hours.

    Anyway, the good thing about the internet is that you no longer have to make an effort to visit Bedlam. Bedlam comes to you.

  516. #517 Walton
    March 28, 2010

    For those of you who hasn’t realized it. Graeme Bird is an Australian and a Libertarian, running as a candidate for the Liberal-Democratic party in Dobell, NSW, Australia (he got 182 votes)

    I’m confused. Is it this Liberal Democratic Party? If so, they must be much more of a crazy fringe group than appears from the article. Though the article appears to have been written by a supporter, and only cites the party’s own website and the Electoral Commission website, so probably isn’t too reliable.

  517. #518 Shala
    March 28, 2010

    It may be that I’m fresh from commenting on the God of War thread, but am I the only person who’s thinking about the terrorist group in Metal Gear Solid 2?

    He can twist logic around himself in an unbelievable manner, wants to be divorced from reality, people try to explain to him why logic should work on him, and then it turns out that no, he really had the power to warp logic around himself the entire time?

    Well, at least he isn’t in love with Vamp.

  518. #519 blf
    March 28, 2010

    I will prove in this paper that Adolf Hitler won the American Civil War after dropping an atomic bomb on the Treaty of Versailles from a Goodyear blimp.

    Except that there was no American Civil War, Hitler was really Obama in disguise, the Treaty of Versailles was mistranslated and the correct version actually ceded France to Germany (which is why Obama, in his Hitler disguise, invaded), and whilst there were Goodyear blimps, they were only decoys. The atomic bomb was actually smuggled in by ninja penguins in a practice run for the twin towers attack. This is all fact. You can look it up. Do your research!!!1! You’re all clewless lying moorons.

  519. #520 iambilly
    March 28, 2010

    blf: But have they produced the actual Treaty? Or have you just read about it through unreliable third parties? And I was incorrect: they were not Goodyear blimps. Blimps are flacid. Dirigibles are rigid. Therefore the aircraft in question were Savoia-Marchetti Marsupials. And where did the penguins hide the bombs? They must have been marsupial penguins using the Italian airplanes to fly Obama (under a different name (of course)) to . . . to . . .

    Apparently, I’m either not ceative enough or not crazy enough.

  520. #521 blf
    March 28, 2010

    Oh my FSM! There’s two blogs dedicated to Less-Brains-Than-a-Stuffed-Turkey’s nuttiness:

    http://graemebirdforum.wordpress.com/

    http://bigbirdbrain.wordpress.com/

    Neither seems to be terribly active, albeit Less-Brains-… has commented at both. (And at quite a few other blogs, where, it seems, after being asked to backup his assertions and refusing to do so, he’s usually told to STFU and go away.)

  521. #522 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    iambilly:

    And where did the penguins hide the bombs?

    Those weren’t penguins! They were stealth seagulls wearing penguin suits. The evidence for this is overwhelming, there’s simply no question about it.

  522. #523 iambilly
    March 28, 2010

    I keep reading the name Graeme Bird as Graeme Green, the protagonist in the oddly readable scie-fi book, Dorsai!.

  523. #524 iambilly
    March 28, 2010

    Caine: Then explain the Italian airplane called a “Marsupiale”? If you cannot explain that, then the goves do not fit over the birth certificate of live birth.

  524. #525 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    iambilly, everyone knows the Savoia-Marchetti SM.75 Marsupiale was a type of mutant flying squirrel covered with special tinfoil that was made in secret by members of the Illuminati. Sheesh. This is basic knowledge!

  525. #526 blf
    March 28, 2010

    So, of course, as soon as I post the previous comment (about two blogs on Less-Brains-Than-a-Stuff-Turkey), I find someone has a LOLcats feed dedicated to Less-Brains-&hellip:

    http://lol.ianloic.com/feed/graemebird.wordpress.com/atom.xml

    And more nuttiness from Less-Brains-… itself, We Have Got To Get Rid Of This Bogus Doctrine To Do With The Conservation Of Mass And Energy. (The significant of the astericks is explained at the end by Less-Brains-&hellip: ?*Asterisk borders denote that part of this post where the logic is unassailable. Anyone disagreeing with that part of this post is just being silly. The rest is mere opinion.?) This one is an absolute gem, so it is quoted in full:

    *At best this is a speculative and unscientific doctrine. Consider what it would take to prove this business? You see existence exists! The mass and energy is here. The existence of the mass is evident during every waking moment. There is no gainsaying that the mass is here. Therefore for this bogus doctrine to hold sway, in the universal sense, we have to postulate that the universe has always been here. And that the universe has always contained precisely the same amount of mass and energy as it does now. This is an unverifiable and unfalsifiable proposition. It is therefore an unscientific proposition that is getting in the way of science. There really isn?t much else to say about this business. Straight logic precludes there being a theoretical proscription on the creation of new mass and energy directly from the fact that these things exist. Sorry this is such a short post. The subject is one of straight and undeniable logic. There truly isn?t anything more to say about this at all.*

    Except for one thing. We need to look very much askance at this notion that E=M*C-squared. For one thing we have got to stop looking at these formulas that puny humans come up with as carved in stone. They are approximations only, working more or less between known boundary points. Secondly none of this stuff is proven. When we generate nuclear energy we could write a disclaimer that NO PROTONS WERE DESTROYED DURING THIS PROCESS. There is scant evidence that any matter gets converted into anything else. Rather stored energy, not in the form of mass at all, is liberated from the nucleus. In my working model this amounts to releasing the energy of thousands of compressed electrons, locked up in the nucleus like compressed balloons full of air or akin to compressed springs ready to be unleashed. I am not in any position to prove my working model of matter. But neither is the opposition. Its very odd that we can have all this nuclear energy generation everywhere and no hard evidence for this ideology.

    I think that energy and matter are related yes. Because I think that where there are held to be neutrons there is really a great deal of compression, and particularly compressed electrons. But this too is clearly speculation. We want to get away from mere speculation and get some real science done. And for that we have to turf out these sacred cow doctrines choking up the place.

    *Asterisk borders denote that part of this post where the logic is unassailable. Anyone disagreeing with that part of this post is just being silly. The rest is mere opinion.

    None(?) of the comments, all(?) of which appear to have been heavily edited by Less-Brains-…, have anything at all to do with the above post.

    Birther. Truther. AGE-denialism. A physic’s kook physic’s kook. Geology kook. DDT-bin-causes-a-holocaust. Apparent anti-vaxxer.

    Field Marshall, Supreme Idiocy, with Extra Crazy and Clusters of Nuts.

    My apologies to Pee Zed for filling up his blog, but this is a Crackpot straight from Central Casting.

  526. #527 Sven DiMilo
    March 28, 2010

    The atomic bomb was actually smuggled in by ninja penguins in a practice run for the twin towers attack.

    And where did the penguins hide the bombs? They must have been marsupial penguins using the Italian airplanes

    Those weren’t penguins! They were stealth seagulls wearing penguin suits.

    Fools! You know nothing!
    The top-secret Project Adelie is no myth. Nor was it “quietly abandoned” in the early 70s as some scurrilous reports would have it, but merely made more plausibly deniable while the work continued. In fact, it was only too successful, and when a breeding pair escaped in 1977 and established a colony, which was subsequently discovered accidentally by a BBC cinema crew in 2008, those “in the know” were disappeared–highly professional jobs every one, no messes to clean up. Oh, what, you haven’t heard about this in the MSM? The evidence is crytal clear; you could look it up if you weren’t so blinded by the bullshit you’re spoonfed by Reptilians and/or Matrixtenders.
    Here is the smoking gun:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dfWzp7rYR4

    Get your fucking brains out of their vats and wake up to Quasi-Meta-Pseudo-Reality! Fools!!!

  527. #528 iambilly
    March 28, 2010

    Caine: Describing and explaining are two different things. Don’t you understand the SCIENTIFIC METHOD?!?!!11??!//!/ Sheesh.

  528. #529 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Sven DiMilo #512

    Brains in vats. Everybody knows this (or at least intuits it).

    No, silly Sven, it’s jars.

  529. #530 Shala
    March 28, 2010

    You fucking idiots don’t realize that it’s the PATRIOTS controlling the American government with nanomachines! Soon the flow of information will belong entirely to them!

    DAMN THE PATRIOTS!

  530. #531 iambilly
    March 28, 2010

    Sven: Um, they were chinstraps, not Adelie penguins. And your call yourself a, a, hmm. What do you call yourself?

  531. #532 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    Game Bird, quoted in 526:

    You see existence exists!

    *stares* Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh my.

  532. #533 iambilly
    March 28, 2010

    Shala:

    I just sprayed diet caffeine free Wegman’s store brand cola on my keyboard. “Nanomachine” — what popped into my mind? Mork from Ork. Nano, nano.

    I gotta lay off this caffeine-free diet stuff. Need real cherry coke.

  533. #534 Militant Agnostic
    March 28, 2010

    Graeme Birdbrain is a guanophrenic.

    I hope this word spreads throughout the intertubes as it is a perfect term for his ilk.

  534. #535 The Pint
    March 28, 2010

    Jebus H Christ on a pogo stick. I haven’t seen a marathon Wahck-a-Loon session like that in ages! I started reading the thread last night and konked out around comment #400 – it was either that or end up with a severely bruised face from all facepalming after reading each one of BirdBrain’s posts. I cannot believe it’s an entire night of sleep later and he was STILL going at it for almost a 100+ comments! I’d almost admire his persistence – except it’s based on utter stupidity and a disturbing lack of touch with reality. Can PZ please triple lock the door before he comes back?

  535. #536 The Pint
    March 28, 2010

    Typing fail: obviously I meant “Whack-a-Loon.” That’ll teach me to post before I’ve had my first cup of coffee.

  536. #537 blf
    March 28, 2010

    The top-secret Project Adelie is no myth.

    Hah! Gotcha! That’s what they want you to believe. The BBC video is part of a massive coverup. Project Adelie never existed, except as a paper decoy.

    The real work on the ninja penguins was done at Area [redacted] in Atlantis by the druids, working with the Dodos. This is a fact. You can’t refute it.

    Do your research! You guys are all so inbred and lacking in curiosity you can’t even be bothered to pay poopyhead his tithing cheques!!!1!

  537. #538 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    iambilly:

    Caine: Describing and explaining are two different things. Don’t you understand the SCIENTIFIC METHOD?!?!!11??!//!/ Sheesh.

    I wonder if Game Bird is going to wander back here and take any of this stuff seriously. I’m rather torn as to whether that would be world class amusing or utterly terrifying.

  538. #539 Sven DiMilo
    March 28, 2010

    ‘Tis, you’re a nut. Mel Brooks is in on the conspiracy; didn’t you see Spaceballs? It’s vats, always vats, except very occasionally you might see yer odd domes.

    Sven: Um, they were chinstraps, not Adelie penguins.

    This is my problem how? Do you imagine that I was consulted when the Government chose a secret code-name for its top-secret penguin-breeding-and-modification program?

    And your call yourself a, a, hmm. What do you call yourself?

    they call me Mr. Tibbs!

  539. #540 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 28, 2010

    iambilly #523

    I keep reading the name Graeme Bird as Graeme Green, the protagonist in the oddly readable scie-fi book, Dorsai!.

    The protagonist in Gordon Dickson’s novel Dorsai! is Donal Graeme.

    Graham Greene was somebody else.

  540. #541 OurDeadSelves
    March 28, 2010

    Waaaaaaay back @ #408

    Hence, its birtherism seems puzzling, nor is it clear why it’s scared that a (gasp!) black man is the President of a completely different country on the other side of the world (I concur that that’s probably part of what’s going on).

    It might be because a black man now actually holds some international power that freaks these types of loons out.

  541. #542 desertfroglet
    March 28, 2010

    Always vats, eh? Then how do you explain this? Huh? HUH?

  542. #543 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Sven, don’t ya know nuffin’? It’s jars. It always has been jars. And always will be jars. So get a brain.

  543. #544 Kristjan Wager
    March 28, 2010

    I’m confused. Is it this Liberal Democratic Party?

    Walton, yes it’s that Liberal-Democratic Party. Sad, isn’t it?

  544. #545 iambilly
    March 28, 2010

    blf:

    Myth or butterfly?

    Caine:

    If that happened, it would truly be world-class funny/scary/batshit crazy all rolled into one.

    ‘Tis:

    I stand corrected. Actually, I sit corrected. I knew the name was familiar and I had the right book.

    Graham Greene: The Quiet American, Our Man in Havana. D’oh!!!!

    OurDeadSelves:

    Perhaps he aware of the interconnectedness of the economies of the world and is worried that Obama is racking up debt trying to solve some of the problems Bush racked up debt to create and is thus concerned that our (the US’s) borrowing may impact Australia’s ability to borrow? And perhaps giant winged porcupines will fly out of my ass. Backwards. Either could happen.

    Desertfroglet:

    How can anyone explain Steve Martin?

    ‘Tis et al: Can we all just agree to call them containers and just get along?

  545. #546 Sven DiMilo
    March 28, 2010

    I have better things to do than waste time arguing with a bunch of vat-denialists.

    good DAY!

  546. #547 Antiochus Epiphanes
    March 28, 2010

    Comstock Lode: silver :: Graeme Bird: insanity

    Expletive! You guys sank some serious shafts into that vein…and yet I wager you have yet to plumb its depths.

    This is the best example of fractal wrongness I have ever read, even on this site which is continually beset by those who aim for the stars in that category. Obsecenity me with a household or otherwise mundane object.

  547. #548 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 28, 2010

    I trust everyone noted that desertfroglet and I gave examples of brains in jars but that Sven DiFuckwad feller couldn’t be bothered to produce any evidence for vatted brains.

  548. #550 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    Sven:

    I have better things to do than waste time arguing with a bunch of vat-denialists.

    How dare you! You are a jar-denialist and completely delusional. Jars are for brains, vats are for cloning. More headless Agnews must be made!

  549. #551 blf
    March 28, 2010

    Myth or butterfly?

    You lie! This is a fact. Do your research. You’re all idiots.

  550. #552 OurDeadSelves
    March 28, 2010

    Perhaps he aware of the interconnectedness of the economies of the world and is worried that Obama is racking up debt trying to solve some of the problems Bush racked up debt to create and is thus concerned that our (the US’s) borrowing may impact Australia’s ability to borrow?

    Could be, but I think you’re giving him way too much credit, especially since his only concern was that health care reform was going to bankrupt the US and not the rest of the world. He never mentioned the global impact of a total US financial collapse, he just jeered at us for being sheeple who don’t understand that 2+ trillion dollars OMG IS A LOT OF MONEYS!!!1!

    But, then again, here I sit still trying to make sense of what he has said. Crazy is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, so maybe I’m a nutter, too. :)

  551. #553 desertfroglet
    March 28, 2010

    Well, it’s the wee hours here, so I must pick up my brain inna jar and retire for the night. I hope the bird flies back. He is the perfect storm of stupidity.

  552. #554 Pareidolius
    March 28, 2010

    Josh, thanks for your kind words, I rea

    00101001001111101010010011001001001
    COMMENT COMMANDEERED BY ORBITALPHARMACOM

    MESSAGE BEGINS:

    Shills and Minions:

    Well, not exactly shills and minions, as I am but a guest here on Pharyngula. Forgive me for interrupting this monkey’s terribly heartfelt moment, but as an evil, reptilian, pharma lord, my time is precious. My day is filled with secret plots, black helicopters, nanobots and general malevolence.

    Vats. Funny you should mention vats. That’s where we grew your Dark Lord you know. He’s one of us, of course. But then all of you who’ve had your H1N1 “shots” know that by now. You’ve felt the thrill as the billions of Nanobamas? coursing through your bloodstream came online, urging you towards a socialist, hive-like existence. You’ve felt the urge to listen to Fresh Air and Indigo Girls. You marveled as you began to find yourselves begging your “doctors” for ever more luscious, expensive, monkey-altering pharmaceuticals!

    Ah yes, vats. The vats up here at PharmaCOM Orbital are full of so many interesting things. Plus the nuclear force really is little balloons compressed in the nucleus of atoms, what did you think?

    The comments over here are so . . . plentiful. I really must return, but for now, my minions over at Respectful Insolence are undoubtedly running amok and trying to reprogram Orac or some such thing. Honestly, there just aren’t enough hours in a puny earth day to be as evil as I’d like.

    MESSAGE ENDS

    Lord Draconis Zeneca, VC, iH7L
    PharmaCOM Orbital HQ
    0010101101001

    eo[i huh? Man, my head hurts and so does . . . nevermind.

  553. #555 Carlie
    March 28, 2010

    You’re all deluded – everyone knows that brains come in boxes.

  554. #556 otrame
    March 28, 2010

    @547

    Obsecenity [sic] me with a household or otherwise mundane object.

    Hmmm….

    Is is wrong of me to find that sentence strangely arousing?

    Or maybe I mean is it strange of me to find that sentence wrongly arousing?

    Now I’m all confused.

  555. #557 blf
    March 28, 2010

    Brains come from Igors. This is a fact! Group-thinking fools.

  556. #558 toth
    March 28, 2010

    Civil disobedience: You’re doing it wrong.

  557. #559 Antiochus Epiphanes
    March 28, 2010

    otrame: Probably my typo got you going. That is my secret.

  558. #560 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    blf:

    Brains come from Igors. This is a fact! Group-thinking fools.

    No no, only the best brains come from Igors. Igors deal in quality.

  559. #561 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Brains come from Igors.

    No, Igors are just the delivery system. Brains come from jars.

  560. #562 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Igors deal in quality.

    Beware of brains from Eyegors…

  561. #563 daninorlando
    March 28, 2010

    Wow!
    so THAT is what crazy looks like, eh?

    He’s just saying to you, “I don’t have to prove anything. I’ve lawyers guns and money. I don’t even need your vote. I can buy any election”

  562. #564 iambilly
    March 28, 2010

    Sven, Desertfrog and Caine:

    We could call them jugs (however that would invite a jaunt down R-rated lane and none of us want to go there, right?).

    blf: The myths are the ones with powdery wings, right?

    Carlie: Think outside the box. Or you can be like Senor Bird and think outside your brain.

    OurDeadSelves: Ever notice that if they are trying to make a sum of money sound small, it is per year or month or even day (I did that while selling cars — sure 18k is a lot to spend on this beautiful fully equipped SUV but with your down payment (and what you owe on your current car) that’s only $330 a month (this was 20+ years ago so it was still lots of money). Or if they want the sum to seem large, it is suddenly spread out over a decade or more — sure it’s only $94 billion a year, but that’s $10 trillion over the next ten decades without even including inflation!!!111 And the funny part is it still works. Both ways.

    Lord Draconius Whatever (ie — Pareidolius): Who, or what, are Indigo Girls (I’m showing my middle age here, I know (and culturally my age is damn near McCainian))?

    Caine and blf: Are you sure an Igor is not a unit of measurement? “I have thrity seven Igors of brain in that there jug.”

  563. #565 Becca
    March 28, 2010

    I keep reading the name Graeme Bird as Graeme Green, the protagonist in the oddly readable scie-fi book, Dorsai!.

    Graham Green was an English author. Donal Graeme was the character in Gordy Dickson’s Dorsai!.

  564. #566 daninorlando
    March 28, 2010

    I confess, I was a full-on JFK conspiracy theorist for a while back in the nineties. It was after my divorce, and I was as close to homeless as I had ever been. I don’t know how those conditions tied together, but when I saw shit going on in the World that I couldn’t contain or control, I found comfort in the idea that PEOPLE WERE FUCKING WITH ME. It gave me a satisfaction to think that I was on to them, that I had it all figured out.
    After a while, my heart mended, and I found my feet again, fell in love, got remarried, and grew out of it.
    In the meantime, I did learn more about the US constitution and our government. I also learned to distrust bullshit, and to spot the difference.

    Bird is not crazy, crazy. He’s probably just very lonely.

  565. #567 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    Nerd:

    Beware of brains from Eyegors…

    Igors not Igors! If your Igor isn’t from Uberwald, you’re in trouble.

  566. #568 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    daninorlando:

    Bird is not crazy, crazy.

    Oh, I wouldn’t be so sure about that.

  567. #569 Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
    March 28, 2010

    This guy is so dumb that zombies would ignore him. Seriously, it’s insane.

    Granted, what do you expect? He outright said “I don’t care what evidence he has, we should sue him to declare him ineligible because he’s black.” I’m paraphrasing, but only slightly.

  568. #570 Feynmaniac
    March 28, 2010

    Kinda glad the Bird was from Australia. There have been enough nuts that have come here and given Canada a bad name. I guess in Australia and Canada the nuts go on the internet to troll, while in the US they get elected to high office.

  569. #571 blf
    March 28, 2010

    If your Igor isn’t from Uberwald, you’re in trouble.

    Überwald not Uberwald. You don’t even know the most basic things! You’re all sheeple!

  570. #572 pcarini
    March 28, 2010

    You’re all deluded – everyone knows that brains come in boxes.

    No, dicks come in boxes.

  571. #573 Carlie
    March 28, 2010

    Carlie: Think outside the box.

    Are you kidding? There are people like Bird out there! I’m staying right in here where it’s safe and predictable.

    Beware of brains from Eyegors…

    And never take a brain from an Eyeore – too morose.

  572. #574 dexitroboper
    March 28, 2010

    Brains come in tanks

  573. #575 iambilly
    March 28, 2010

    Dexitroboper: From my experience in the Army, treadheads don’t have brains, so brains cannot come in tanks.

  574. #576 Meathead
    March 28, 2010

    My apologies to Pee Zed for filling up his blog, but this is a Crackpot straight from Central Casting.

    You know I’ve seen a lot of nutters, this blog seems to attract them but I gotta say that the Bird is truly the Word in nutballing. I mean space-time, expanding earth, relativity… He may actually be the world’s kookiest kook, and he’s a fucking politician too! Huzzah!

  575. #577 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    I’ve been sworn at and I have not sworn back at you dead-heads and consensus-junkies. And I’m not swearing at you now.

    But my blog is a fucking magnificent blog. Choc-full of ideas and speculations. Since I right these posts very quickly with a few beers after work, and seldom re-write, then there are many things that I would of course back away from. Should you wish to ask me whether I was “doubling-down” or not on some point or other, you can do so at my place.

    But I’m not “doubling down” when it comes to the anti-scientifice idiocy of the big bang. The fundamentally religious nature of special relativity, or the fraudulent nature of the global warming racket ……. though this is not to say that the industrial CO2 may not cause SOME warming or indeed SOME cooling at our air pressure.

  576. #578 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    But my blog is a fucking magnificent blog.

    Morons/idjits opinions are not fact.

    Choc-full of ideas and speculations.

    Ideas and speculations are not scientific unless exposed to verification by hard evidence. You don’t even offer soft evidence. Which is why you are a fuckwitted idjit loser.

    And idjit loser fuckwit, my only question is why do you think we are at all interested in your losership bleatings?

  577. #579 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    Game Bird, I think you better check the label on your brain jar, ’cause I think you got the wrong kind of Igor. See if the label says Abby Normal.

  578. #580 Carlie
    March 28, 2010

    “But my blog is a fucking magnificent blog.” =/= “I right these posts very quickly with a few beers after work, and seldom re-write, then there are many things that I would of course back away from.”

    Dude, which is it? Is it fucking magnificent, or is it alcohol-addled slosh that even you yourself back away from?

  579. #581 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “Even if global warming were a fraud, clean, sustainable energy would still be a good idea, environmentally and economically.”

    The global warming racket is indeed a fraud. Some of it may be REFERRED PAIN. That comes from the specifically scientifically minded. Those who are scientifically minded who know the consequences and generalisations to do with THE EXPONENTIAL SERIES.

    So we might talking about referred pain here. And understandable anxiety on the part of the authentically scientifically minded.

    It is not the part of the scientifically minded, actual scientists, science workers, or posing public servants TO RIDE THE LYING TIGER.

    Don’t think you can manipulate the public into doing good, by you lying to them.

    DON’T….. TRY … TO-RIDE ….. THE LYING-TIGER.

    Don’t delude yourselves that you can grab that tiger by the ears and control him and make him move in a straight line towards sensible goals.

    Any attempt to ride the lying tiger and grab him by the ears is going to get a lot of people hurt, and then eventually yourselves when the lying tiger turns on you.

  580. #582 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    The global warming racket is indeed a fraud.

    The peer reviewed scientific literature begs to differ fuckwit. The rest of you post is semantically null, meaning your are still an evidenceless fool. What a loser.

  581. #583 Rey Fox
    March 28, 2010

    How many beers do you think Grame is on now?

  582. #584 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    Carlie, I’m going with alcohol-addled slosh.

  583. #585 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 28, 2010

    you dead-heads

    Nope, not a dead head. Haven’t paid any attention to The Dead ever since Jerry Garcia died.

  584. #586 pcarini
    March 28, 2010

    How many beers do you think Grame is on now?

    … TO RIDE THE LYING TIGER.

    I’m going to say plenty. Then again, I could be RIDING THE LYING TIGER!

  585. #587 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “Dude, which is it? Is it fucking magnificent, or is it alcohol-addled slosh that even you yourself back away from?”

    The first. And part of the second. Its as I said it the first time. Its magnificent. But its written quickly. I’m not likely to back away from any of it in total. But if you nuance, ask me on my blog.

    There was some stuff to do with global warming not long ago that I was taking an extremist and wrong position on. And I read it over I had to declare it outright wrong.

    The idea that we would sponsor war in the Sudan is out of date entirely and pre-supposes a different financial position for the US and the West, and an entirely different war strategy. I’d back away from it now because it makes me look pro-war, when from about 2007 I’ve wanted to get all the boys and girls home(just for one example)

  586. #588 Phasic
    March 28, 2010

    Epic thread.

    And I can’t believe he actually used the word “sheeple”, apparently unironically (non-ironically?).

    Hilarity.

  587. #589 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    How many beers do you think Grame is on now?

    Beers? I suspect something much more hallucinogenic…Tripping the light fantastic maybe….

    Not an iota of cogency there…

  588. #590 iambilly
    March 28, 2010

    But my blog is a fucking magnificent blog.

    And now, the musical number (seriously, does that sound like the first line of a llame Broadway musical number?).

    Choc-full of ideas and speculations.

    With absolutely no supporting evidence, just an authoritarian’s say so.

    Since I right these posts very quickly with a few beers after work, and seldom re-write, then there are many things that I would of course back away from.

    I can think of many things from which you have already backed away: logic, evidence, rationality, sanity to name just a few.

    Should you wish to ask me whether I was “doubling-down” or not on some point or other, you can do so at my place.

    Been to your place. Not impressed. If I want science fiction and fantasy, I’ll stick with Asimov, Herbert, Asprin, etc.

    But I’m not “doubling down” when it comes to the anti-scientifice idiocy of the big bang.

    Please pick up a compy of A Brief History of Time. And read it.

    The fundamentally religious nature of special relativity, or the fraudulent nature of the global warming racket ……. though this is not to say that the industrial CO2 may not cause SOME warming or indeed SOME cooling at our air pressure.

    For something to be a racket, they would need to be making shitloads of money (far more than any scientists makes). Denial is a racket an Exxon and BP and big coal are raking in the bucks. And they know that if the public understands the reality — that the consensus view among qualified researches is that AGW is hapening and it won’t be pretty — their gravy train derails.

    Mr. Bird, I find you amusing and sad.

  589. #591 Phasic
    March 28, 2010

    Oh look, RANDOM all CAPS.

    Always a sign of a watertight argument.

  590. #592 Carlie
    March 28, 2010

    It’s the ride lying tiger it’s the thrill of the fight,
    Rising bile for the earth warming denier,
    And the comments are all caps and though try as we might,
    We will never get sense from that guyyyyyyyyyyyy, lying tiger.

  591. #593 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “The peer reviewed scientific literature begs to differ……. ”

    Now you are lying. And in fact if you were correct it wouldn’t make a stitch of difference because science is not about peer review, its about methodology, evidence, and reason.

    Peer review is specifically a priesthood concept.

    I actually think biology and chemistry are still in pretty good shape. Pretty much all the non-commercial sciences, with these two aside, are in quite a bad way at the moment, at least from my survey of them.

  592. #594 Feynmaniac
    March 28, 2010

    But my blog is a fucking magnificent blog. Choc-full of ideas and speculations. Since I right these posts very quickly with a few beers after work, and seldom re-write, then there are many things that I would of course back away from. Should you wish to ask me whether I was “doubling-down” or not on some point or other, you can do so at my place.

    BWAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Alright, it’s just a matter of time before this fool is going to be sent to his peers at the Dungeon and then eventually become a regular here.

  593. #595 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “Been to your place. Not impressed”

    Well you got to sit down and read before you can stand up and judge.

    Your education was insufficient. The problem was all your own.

  594. #596 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Now you are lying.

    Then cite the peer reviewed scientific literature, or shut the fuck up as the fuckwited idjit loser you are. Time to show real credentials, not loudmouth credentials…

  595. #597 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Now you are lying. And in fact if you were correct it wouldn’t make a stitch of difference because science is not about peer review, its about methodology, evidence, and reason.

    Peer review is one of the things that keeps science honest. However from what I’ve seen of your rants and babbles, honesty is not one of your concerns.

  596. #598 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    *puts Iambilly on a list…*

  597. #599 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Your education was insufficient>

    There the fucwit idjit describes himself again. What a loser. One might think he would be getting the concept he is an idjit by now. If it wasn’t for the psychotic ego of the typical liberturdian…

  598. #600 Jessa
    March 28, 2010

    Just remember that it’s imperative to wear valid pants while RIDING THE LYING TIGER.

  599. #601 a_ray_in_dilbert_space
    March 28, 2010

    Graeme Bird says “The fundamentally religious nature of special relativity, or the fraudulent nature of the global warming racket ……. though this is not to say that the industrial CO2 may not cause SOME warming or indeed SOME cooling at our air pressure.”

    So vague, and yet, so wrong. So, Graeme, just why is the global temperature 288 Kelvins rather than 255 Kelvins if not the greenhouse effect. Martian Heat Rays?

    And if you say it’s the greenhouse effect, then do you say CO2 is a greenhouse gas or not? If not,how do you explain the large chunks taken out of Earth’s outgoing infrared radiation right at the absorption lines of CO2? How can water be a greenhouse gas and CO2 not be?

    And if CO2 is a greenhouse gas, why should it magically stop being one at 288 parts per million by volume?

    Start with those. Got answers or do you only do vague assertions?

  600. #602 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    Peer review ensures that the public service science is dishonest.

    See part of the problem is that the pecking order is all wrong. I found this in banking as well. The least sound from a management point of view held all the prestige. Its like that in science.

    In science the cosmologists and physicists ought to defer to the philosophers. But the philosophers weren’t up to it. And the deference ran the other way.

    A big problem in science right now is that Cosmology, Physics, Mathematics, and Statistics rules the roost.

    The problem with this is that the Cosmologists and the Physicists are doing a crap job. And the mathematicians and Statisticians are tool-wielders. Its like putting the fellow who can hammer a nail in more surely and straighter then anyone else in charge of the architect.

    Now in a better world the Physicist/Cosmologist would defer to the Philosopher. The Chemist would defer to the Physicist/Cosmologist. The biologist would defer to the Chemist.

    But thats not how we ought to play it for the time being.

    Since the Chemists, and the biologists have their act together, they ought to be the senior partner to the right of the physicists. And the philosopher, if some good ones can be found, ought to be the senior partner of the Physicist/Cosmologists

    And everyone ought to consider the mathematicians and statisticians as important. But the “hired help” nonetheless.

  601. #603 iambilly
    March 28, 2010

    Well, I do have a liberal arts education — you know, learning how to research and write.

    Nerd of Redhead:

    *puts Iambilly on a list…*

    To port or starboard?

    Seriously, fuckwits like this are why I blog pseudonymously (Bird: it means “under a fictitious name, especially a pen name.” See, we define our terms.)

  602. #604 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Now in a better world the Physicist/Cosmologist would defer to the Philosopher. The Chemist would defer to the Physicist/Cosmologist. The biologist would defer to the Chemist.

    Why?

  603. #605 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Peer review ensures that the public service science is dishonest.

    Prove it from legitimate sources outside of yourself, or acknowledge you are a liar and bullshitter. Welcome to real science, where vague will get you skewered…

    In science the cosmologists and physicists ought to defer to the philosophers.

    Bull fucking shit. Sophists like philosophers don’t deal, like you, with real evidence. They are losers, just like you, since they can’t handle reality either…

    Now in a better world the Physicist/Cosmologist would defer to the Philosopher.

    Quit being a total fuckwit, if you believe at all in the scientific method, philosophers are shown the door…

    What a vague loser. Real and honest people aren’t afraid to be wrong. Only loser fuckwit idjits like you…

  604. #606 a_ray_in_dilbert_space
    March 28, 2010

    Graeme says, “Now in a better world the Physicist/Cosmologist would defer to the Philosopher.”

    So, Graeme, you’ll have to remind me. What philosopher was it that predicted the cosmic microwave background–you know, the radiation that pervades the Universe and has a blackbody temperature of 2.7 Kelvins? Uh, you do know what a Kelvin is, don’t you Graeme.

    Have you ever even taken a science class?

  605. #607 https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawlZhMUnjA9BsWP9zojf401f2aINdplmJP0
    March 28, 2010

    Don’t forget that RIDING THE LYING TIGER is not the same as setting GOATS ON FIRE !!!

  606. #608 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “So vague, and yet, so wrong. So, Graeme, just why is the global temperature 288 Kelvins rather than 255 Kelvins if not the greenhouse effect. Martian Heat Rays?”

    Horribly simplistic and completely wrong.

    And yes. Despite your cruel and cutting ridicule its not all about back-radiation. It does INDEED appear that backradiation is a factor, but one of many, that may or may not be powerfully relevant AT OUR AIR PRESSURE.

    Now here is another thing. This shadow of the valley of the curse of the lone paradigm that you are under!!!!!

    Did you know that your model of reality, was not a model, of air temperature!!!!

    Did you know that?

    Your basic core model has NOTHING!!!! to do with air temperature.

    Your basic lone paradigm, is a model, to do with black body SURFACE temperature.

    Its a totally inappropriate model to be using to talk about air temperature.

    WELL THEN AGAIN, NOT EXACTLY??????

    Its not exactly an inappropriate model. No its not. I SAID it was. But thats not quite right.

    You see your black body surface temperature model would be EF EYE EN EE fine, if it were just one model amongst a few. Because then you wouldn’t get mixed up between your model and reality.

    Then you would not be labouring under the shadow of the valley of the cult of the lone paradigm.

  607. #609 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Horribly simplistic and completely wrong.

    No citation, so a Mother Fucking Lie. Either cite the peer reviewed scientific literature or shut the fuck up.

    The rest of your post is semantically null proving nothing. What a loser. Which you prove with every post idjit fuckwit loser…

  608. #610 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “Graeme Bird,
    OK, dude, I am a physicist. I have studied relativity–special and general. Time dilation has been observed even in air travel.”

    Its pretty simple. They lied. We know that from the difficulty with getting the freedom of information material.

    Now another thing. Relativistic effects are fine. But its silly to accord those effects to

    1. velocity differences, when all velocity is relative.

    2. TIME DILATION when time itself is a derivative and not a primary concept.

    So the effects are fine. But you have NOT found the reasons for them. You’ve got to get cracking pal. You are on the public tit. Find the real reasons for these counter-intuitive effects. I assure you they do not come from velocity alone, because …. velocity ….. is ……. relative.

    And its not to do with TIME as such. Because TIME ….. well there is no such real thing as time is there.

    So concentrate. Do the work. Solve the mystery.

  609. #611 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Its pretty simple. They lied.

    Show conclusive evidence from sources outside of yourself or shut the fuck up. Welcome to real science…

    Fuckwit, look up time corrections for GPS. Then shut the fuck up.

  610. #612 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “No citation, so a Mother Fucking Lie.”

    No no. Science has nothing to do citations. He was being horribly simplistic, and he was completely wrong.

    You cannot just make “BACKRADIATION” the god of gaps, when it comes to gas temperature.

    You certainly are unable to do this on the basis of a simplistic model to do with BLACK BODY SURFACE TEMPERATURE.

    See the political science workers, have no executive guidance guidance outside of Chemistry and Biology. So the proper work isn’t being done. And the actual work is just rife with politics and turf warfare.

  611. #613 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    No no. Science has nothing to do citations

    Sorry fuckwit loser, either you have citations to the peer reviewed literature, or you are liar and bullshitter. I speak as a 30+ year practitioner of science, compare to your fuckwittedness.. the rest of your post is semantically null, as expected from a fuckwitted liar and bullshitter. Keep up with your refutations. You are losing with every post loser…

  612. #614 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “Fuckwit, look up time corrections for GPS. Then shut the fuck up.”

    No no. You are just completely wrong. For one thing thing the relativists update their act on the fly. But putting that aside…..

    Any counter-intuitive effects you see have got NOTHING to do with velocity per se ….. because velocity is always relative.

    Nor have they got anything to do with tee eye em ee TIME. Because time is not a real thing.

    So I cannot say that the GPS disproves special relativity. Because the science gangsters have already come up with their fudge factors. They were at first proved wrong. Now everything is smoothed over and they are proved right apparently.

    But this is neither here nor there. The public servants are being paid on our time. They must find the REAL answers. Or they ought to be sacked.

    Simple.

  613. #615 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    @ 607:

    Don’t forget that RIDING THE LYING TIGER is not the same as setting GOATS ON FIRE !!!

    Of course they aren’t. You set the goats on fire while riding by on the lying tiger.

  614. #616 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    No no. You are just completely wrong.

    Then prove it with something other than your unscientific opinion, by citing the peer reviewed scientific literature. Or shut the fuck up.

    Because time is not a real thing.

    See my first comment this post loser fuckwit idjit.

    They must find the REAL answers

    They have, your ideas, which are unscientific, are irrelevant to real facts and science. What an idjit fuckwit loser. Couldn’t even prove he could wipe his ass if someone gave him some TP. Total and utter loser.

  615. #617 Carlie
    March 28, 2010

    We know that from the difficulty with getting the freedom of information material.

    There are buildings called “libraries”. They exist in pretty much any town or city – I’m sure they even have them in Australia. If you walk into one, they contain things called “books” which contain information of the type you seek. If the particular library doesn’t have what you are looking for, there are magical people who work there who go by the name of “reference librarians”; treat them well and they will get you any information you may desire. Sometimes their magic is so strong that they can obtain the material of your quest almost instantly, through a device called the “internet”. Sometimes the magic is more weak, and requires a few days to transmit, but then it is in an easily portable form (the aforementioned “book” or sometimes a “journal”) that you can take anywhere, even into the bathtub as long as you don’t drop it and get it wet. If you drop it and get it wet, you will upset the magic reference librarians and then they will not want to help you any more. Sometimes bringing them cookies helps.

  616. #618 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “argument from personal incredulity”

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Its a great one-liner isn’t it. The relativist abandons reality and goes headlong into a childish mathematics fantasy-land.

    And you say, “HEY BUDDY. WHY NOT STICK YOUR STUPID HEAD OUT OF THIS CHILDISH, MATHEMATICS, FANTASY LAND…”

    And the stupid, childish, fantasist comes back with………. wait for it ……..

    ” thats just the argument from personal incredulity na na-na na-na”

    Get it together rainman.

    You mathematicians/ Cosmologists/ Physicists /Fantasists are just public servants. You are not exempt.

    You are not exempt from reason. You are not exempt from sound methodology. You are not exempt from the scientific method. You are not exempt from the laws of logic.

    And you autistic nutball……..

    … You are not exempt from budget cuts when the hard rain starts to fall.

    No-one saved Mozart.

    No-one saved Lavoisier

    Who gonna save YOU? Rainman?

  617. #619 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    You mathematicians/ Cosmologists/ Physicists /Fantasists are just public servants. You are not exempt

    Nope fuckwit, they don’t have to do what you, the loser bullshitter idjit thinks. And I work in private industry. Which make you an even bigger loser…

    You are not exempt from reason. You are not exempt from sound methodology.

    Which you provide absolutely nothing of reason or sound methodology. The latter is found in the peer reviewed scientific literature…

    Who gonna save YOU?

    Who is going to save your ass liar, bullshitter, fuckwit, loser, and total idjit…

  618. #620 SC OM
    March 28, 2010
  619. #621 Carlie
    March 28, 2010

    And you autistic nutball……

    Every autistic person I know can out-argue you with half their brain tied behind their back, you asshole.

  620. #622 Zabinatrix
    March 28, 2010

    Because the science gangsters have already come up with their fudge factors.

    Bird, I know I’ve asked you before, but I’m still so damn curious about all your interesting little conspiracy theories. In every single one of them I have to wonder the same thing. Who would stand to gain from obvious lies about such things?

    I haven’t understood who stands to gain from your imagined “global warming racket” or “big bang lies” and I still don’t understand how you can imagine any of these lies happening on such a grand scale.

    Do you understand that science thrives on change? The scientist who completely overturns relativity and our understanding of the space-time continuum would not hide his or her data, findings or reasoning. They would present it and become famous. They would get a Nobel prize and the large prize sum that goes with it. They could sell books by the boatload.

    But instead you imagine them all standing around, twiddling their thumbs or slaving away in research labs earning relatively meager wages, while doing things they know are wrong – and while knowing that science stardom and wealth could be theirs if they just publish The Real Truth.

    Why would they do that? Every single one of them…. What do they have to gain from acting like you seem to imagine that they act?

    Wouldn’t “science gangsters” take the road that gives them the highest profit, not overworked obscurity?

  621. #623 Becca
    March 28, 2010

    Caine @615

    @ 607:

    Don’t forget that RIDING THE LYING TIGER is not the same as setting GOATS ON FIRE !!!

    Of course they aren’t. You set the goats on fire while riding by on the lying tiger.

    but what has that got to do with happy monkeys? I’m so confused.

  622. #624 Feynmaniac
    March 28, 2010

    A big problem in science right now is that Cosmology, Physics, Mathematics, and Statistics rules the roost.

    The problem with this is that the Cosmologists and the Physicists are doing a crap job.

    I love that you wrote that by using a computer.

  623. #625 Becca
    March 28, 2010

    Caine @615

    @ 607:

    Don’t forget that RIDING THE LYING TIGER is not the same as setting GOATS ON FIRE !!!

    Of course they aren’t. You set the goats on fire while riding by on the lying tiger.

    but what has that got to do with happy monkeys? I’m so confused.

  624. #626 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Reality and birdbrain are not congruent…

  625. #627 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    Right.

    Well at least you support, by dint of your online name, a reasonable epistemologist.

    But you know. He was not as fantastic as all that. If he were, he would have overthrown the whole superstructure.

    But then thats not possible. Because if he were a type to overthrow the superstructure, then he wouldn’t have had a prominent job.

    Its the same in economics you know. Austrian-economists complain about the great economist Milton Friedman. But if he had been so great as to reject the whole wrong superstructure, he wouldn’t have been prominent at all.

  626. #628 Feynmaniac
    March 28, 2010

    This fool knows nothing and I’m not going to waste my time. The title of the post is quite apt.

    However, if anyone is interested in reality see here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_special_relativity#Experimental_evidence

    A number of experiments support special relativity when compared against other theories. These include:

    * The Michelson-Morley experiment – round trip speed of light variations (as a function of angle with “aether velocity”), no effect found
    * The Hammar experiment – obstruction of ether flow by mass, no effect found
    * The Trouton-Noble experiment – torque on a capacitor (as a function of angle with “aether velocity”), no effect found
    * The Trouton-Rankine experiment – change in resistance of a coil of wire (as a function of angle with “aether velocity”), no effect found
    * The Kennedy-Thorndike experiment – like the Michelson-Morley experiment except with unequal length interferometer arms (again no variation in the round trip speed of light was detected)
    * The Ives-Stilwell experiment – transverse doppler shift was confirmed
    * Experiments to test emitter theory demonstrated that the speed of light is independent of the speed of the emitter.

    ITS A GIAGANORMOUS CONSPIRACY!!!!11!

  627. #629 Becca
    March 28, 2010

    Caine @615

    @ 607:

    Don’t forget that RIDING THE LYING TIGER is not the same as setting GOATS ON FIRE !!!

    Of course they aren’t. You set the goats on fire while riding by on the lying tiger.

    but what has that got to do with happy monkeys? I’m so confused.

  628. #630 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Ah, a totally content free post by the master of fuckwititry, idjiticy, and just plain stoopid. What a loser. Maybe if he ever offered real scientific evidence, instead of garbage which doesn’t come from his inane and insane opinion…

  629. #631 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Because time is not a real thing.

    My 62nd birthday is later this week. If time isn’t real then can I go back to being 23 again? See, this summer there’s a big sailboat race that I can’t participate in because of my heart but if I were 23 again and with a good heart then I could do the Newport to Bermuda.

  630. #632 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Birdbrain, as soon as you begin to understand your opinion is nothing but garbage, and you need third party verification for your idiocy, like say the peer reviewed scientific literature, you will have achieved a certain wisdom. Wisdom that you may find repugnant, but the rest of us refreshing…

  631. #633 Asclepias
    March 28, 2010

    We’ll save ourselves, thanks. I’m glad I got a college and graduate education so I can actually live in the real world. Oh, and mentioning you write while you are drinking beer does very little for your credibility. And speaking of game birds…*looks at Brittany spaniel on point* FETCH!

  632. #634 Notkieran
    March 28, 2010

    i. At least the Bird is slightly more consistent than the man I once argued with who tried to claim that time didn’t exists by quoting Einstein.

    ii. Ah. “Physicists should defer to philosophers”. Funny. That’s what the guy above said. He also claimed that he understood physics better than me because he had a master’s degree. When pressed, it turned out that the degree was in psychology. Come to think of it, Graeme Bird, was that you? It was a few years ago and it was in Delphi Forums, but maybe you remember the ecstatic pain of getting a new orifice torn for you.

    iii. Totally unrelated, but the American version of Thud spelt “Uberwald” as “Woooerwald” or similar. Some kind of odd error that occurred because of the umlauts, which is almost an example of metahumour, since that (in-universe) is the reasons why the Uberwaldians don’t use the umlauts since they tend to fall off and cause unexpected punctuation.

    iv. I don’t really see a problem with riding a tiger. It is a lie that you can never get off, because all you need to do, see, is cap it one in the head first.

  633. #635 Carlie
    March 28, 2010

    You know, I heard that ScienceBlogs installs a script on your computer when you sign in that takes all of the files from your hard drive and sends them directly to the FBI, who checks them for any evidence of concern about the validity of Obama’s presidency. If they find any, they show up at your house within 2 days to remove you and any trace you ever existed.

    *sits back and whistles innocently*

  634. #636 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    Asclepias:

    Oh, and mentioning you write while you are drinking beer does very little for your credibility.

    No, no, he rights. See Game Bird’s post at #577:

    Since I right these posts

  635. #637 a_ray_in_dilbert_space
    March 28, 2010

    Graeme says, “But if he had been so great as to reject the whole wrong superstructure, he wouldn’t have been prominent at all.”

    Oh, now this is classic–good ol’ Graeme is telling us that one’s brilliance is inversely proportional to one’s success. Sounds just like our homegrown kooks. You know Graeme, I used to work at a magazine with the word Physics in the title. Periodically, we’d get loons like you who’d show up saying they’d shown Einstein was wrong. I was the one they’d call down to talk to them. I’ve known lots of folks JUST LIKE YOU.

    Hey, sport, did you know that Einstein predicted time dilation some 70 years before it was observed in airline travel?

    Here’s one for you: The muon has a measured lifetime of 2.2 microseconds. That means that at near the speed of light it can travel about 600 meters before it decays. And yet detectors measure TONS of muons from galactic cosmic rays. Now how can that be if there is no time dilation, Graeme?

  636. #638 daninorlando
    March 28, 2010

    Changed my mind.

    He is crazy, crazy.

    Maybe even crazy crazy, crazy.

    Not sure yet, need to see another 500 posts.

    Keep ‘em coming, I have plenty of popcorn.

  637. #639 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “At least the Bird is slightly more consistent than the man I once argued with who tried to claim that time didn’t exists by quoting Einstein.”

    That is a great way of making the case. Just as PZ is not to be thought of as moronic as his groupies. so too Alfred was never as otherworldly as his sycophants.

    Your man, almost definitely trashed you in this argument. Your opponent won that argument no question.

    You know that show? Everyone loves Raymond?

    Well the fact is everyone loves Albert. Me as much as anyone. But he’s not a good example for the kids. Neither was Ali? Ali dropping his guard. Dancing around. Ali can DO THAT? Ali can get away with that.

    But in the real world with a great coach anyone else drops their guard and the coach slaps the champs face. Faster then that. Night follows day coach slaps champ.

    Johnny Famechon right up there amongst the best. He drop his guard even for a fraction of a second Ambrose slap his face.

    I was a swimming coach and I’d never let the kids swim freestyle like Phelps.

  638. #640 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “Periodically, we’d get loons like you who’d show up saying they’d shown Einstein was wrong. ”

    Yes of course you did. And you must keep getting them unto the end because he was in fact WRONG.

    Nice man and all that. Creative genius and all that. But you thickhead. You moron. You dim bulb. You idiot.

    Of course until the end of time you will always get anyone sensible writing in to point out to you the obvious.

    Now you are a moron mate. Just get used to your status. You are part of the public service moron-brigade, science-boy 101 maffia.

    You are just an idiot mate.

  639. #641 daninorlando
    March 28, 2010

    I for one am righting to the maffia write now

  640. #642 Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
    March 28, 2010

    This is most fascinating. Wait, what was that other thing? Tedious. Idiot Boy says “I’m right”, someone else says “No, this is what actually happened”, provides evidence, Idiot Boy says “No, I’M right”.

  641. #643 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    Do you people understand what is going on now.

    Always. Until the end of time. Or “time” if you please, kids smarter then what you will ever be, will point out the obvious. That Einstein had it all wrong. And why? Because he did have it all wrong.

    Same with Keynes. But Keynes really never understood economics, whereas Einstein was a great physicist, but not even and epistemologists momma.

    Obviously if someone is wrong and CLEARLY wrong, and the science maffia is too stupid to admit it, then every generation of smart kids, until the end of time, will point this out.

    YOU WON’T FOOL THEM YOU WILL ONLY DESTROY THEM.

    You cannot cheat them you can only stop them.

  642. #644 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    Public service moron brigade.

    Bully-boy maths-and-stats 101.

    Bully-boy advocates of the intellectual status quo.

    But you see we needed NATURAL PHILOSOPHERS. And instead we get fucking aggressive and belligerent versions of fucking Rainman.

  643. #645 a_ray_in_dilbert_space
    March 28, 2010

    Golly, Graeme, in your hurry to back out the door insulting me, you forgot to answer my question about the muons. Oh, and Graeme. I’m not relying on 2nd hand info, bud. I’ve measured them myself.

    So, got an answer, clownshoe?

  644. #646 Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
    March 28, 2010

    You really don’t understand what it means to provide evidence, do you?

  645. #647 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    Dim Bulb

    Notkieran

    Blockhead.

    No it wasn’t me dummy. But its time for you to realise that when it comes to this sort of debate you would always have been whipped, and you don’t have a pot to piss in.

    Because Einstein, like many geniuses before him, WAS WRONG. Get used to it you fucking moron. Dingles’refutation is total.

    Before the science maffia descended on wiki we had maybe twenty verified examples of light speed being whipped. Being thrashed. With superior speeds like Phar Lap at a donkey derby.

    Just live with it. It makes Albert now smarter or less smart. He just happened to be wrong on these matters. And sometimes even your dear leader KIM is wrong.

    You fucking moron.

    Okay lets get back to basics and I’ll try and stop swearing. Science is not about the cult of personality.

    Its not.

    You might think it is but its not.

    I’m sorry you had to hear it from me but its not.

    ITS NOT!!!

    Got that finally? You dummy?

    Science is about methodology, reason, and CONVERGENT evidence.

    There is NO ROOM for the cult of personality in science.

  646. #648 a_ray_in_dilbert_space
    March 28, 2010

    Graeme says, “Nice man and all that. Creative genius and all that. But you thickhead. You moron. You dim bulb. You idiot.”

    Oh, and Graeme, look up verbs:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verb

    They’ll revolutionize your writing–at least when you’re sober.

  647. #649 https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawlZhMUnjA9BsWP9zojf401f2aINdplmJP0
    March 28, 2010

    This is a really interesting mix between Time Cube, Dennis Markuze and the from A Total Awareness…

  648. #650 Suck Poppet
    March 28, 2010

    I was a swimming coach and I’d never let the kids swim freestyle like Phelps.

    wtf?

    Fllowed this lunacy for too long now – is anyone else here thinking poe?

    In Aussie we would term a poe a shit-stirrer, and I am getting a strong whiff of a brown stained paddle.

  649. #651 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 28, 2010

    You really don’t understand what it means to provide evidence, do you?

    Evidence is for sissies. Our Graeme ain’t no sissy.

  650. #652 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “Golly, Graeme, in your hurry to back out the door insulting me, you forgot to answer my question about the muons”

    You idiot. Don’t you know that everyone goes with the muons?

    You blockhead. If you have to go subatomic, with alleged theoretical entities, then clearly you don’t know shit from shinola.

    Why not give me a BIG THING example?

    Because you don’t have one.

    Because you are full of shit and you are wrong.

    We need to find the real answers. And you public servant house niggers are just getting in the way.

    Now Einstein is a much more benevolent figure then Kim. But don’t goose-step to him man.

  651. #653 desertfroglet
    March 28, 2010

    Good grief, Graeme. Do you know Dennis Markuze? You two would get on like a goat on fire.

    I can’t believe that you are gainfully employed. You are devastatingly stupid, have severe anger management problems and have great difficulty constructing a coherent argument.

    If you are, in fact, employed, please tell me what sort of job lets you to drink to excess during work hours and also allows free access to the internet. I’m retired, but damn, I’d like to sign up for that job.

  652. #654 Josh, Official SpokesGay
    March 28, 2010

    Oh my goodness. Teh Bird has descended into word salad. Give it up, Bird. Come on over and help me make a complete, balanced meal. I gotta box of Stove Top with your name on it.

  653. #655 Carlie
    March 28, 2010

    I was a swimming coach and I’d never let the kids swim freestyle like Phelps.

    Wow, he even knows more about swimming than the guy who won more Olympic swimming medals than anyone else ever has! Truly, Bid is a Renaissance Man.

  654. #656 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    desertfroglet:

    If you are, in fact, employed, please tell me what sort of job lets you to drink to excess during work hours and also allows free access to the internet. I’m retired, but damn, I’d like to sign up for that job.

    It wouldn’t work, you’d make sense. That makes you overqualified.

  655. #657 'Tis Himself, OM
    March 28, 2010

    is anyone else here thinking poe?

    Look at his blog. This boy’s the real deal.

  656. #658 Phasic
    March 28, 2010

    You win, Bird. You cannot be argued with.

    All counter-arguments are the products of minds deluded by the lies of the establishment. Any counter-evidence is totally fabricated.

    You are the expert in all things. Anyone who disagrees is an imbecile or a liar.

    You cannot be argued with. Enjoy your mastery of the universe, much good may it do you.

  657. #659 desertfroglet
    March 28, 2010

    Caine @ 657

    It wouldn’t work, you’d make sense. That makes you overqualified.

    But excessive drinking could fix that! I’m willing to give it a go.

  658. #660 Carlie
    March 28, 2010

    And you public servant house niggers are just getting in the way.

    Nice.

    Now we know for sure that all of his anger is based on the simple fact that a black man is the President of the United States. How sad, that it all comes down to skin color for him. It really hurts to know that there are black people who are smarter and more successful than you, doesn’t it, Bird? And not just black, but half-black, probably even worse as far as you’re concerned. Think about it for a few minutes, Graeme. You couldn’t even win a tiny little local election, and there a black man went and won the election of an entire country. That’s got to burn. I bet it keeps you up at night, doesn’t it? Knowing that under all your bluster, you’re less talented, less popular, less successful, less of a man than that Obama guy. And everybody knows it, including you. I bet that really hurts, deep down. How sad and pathetic for you.

  659. #661 John Morales
    March 28, 2010

    LOL.

    “At least the Bird is slightly more consistent than the man I once argued with who tried to claim that time didn’t exists by quoting Einstein.”

    That is a great way of making the case. Just as PZ is not to be thought of as moronic as his groupies. so too Alfred was never as otherworldly as his sycophants.

    Ah yes, Alfred Einstein!

    <giggle>

  660. #662 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    Just before you “pampered slaves” get me on the potentially disrespectful phrasing.

    You can search all you want. But you will never find me accusing anyone with so much as a good tan, or olive skin, as being a “house-nigger”. Its a phrase I took from Malcolm X.

    The better formulation, less open to misunderstanding, is pampered slave.

    This better phrase was formulated by one of the great hero’s of mine. Alan Keyes. The best impromptu speaker anyone has seen in decades. The best political speaker since Reagan left. Washington.

    See you’ve got to promote the best people. Keyes the natural statesman, were he NOT President, which he ought to have been after Reagan…… He should have been part of any good team.

    But you wouldn’t give him credit. So what did you do? You let yourself get gypped by the “Long-legged Mac Daddy”

    Alan Keyes’ phrase is “pampered slave”. Thats what I should have said. Being as I am amongst strangers, who may wish to misrepresent me.

  661. #663 https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawlZhMUnjA9BsWP9zojf401f2aINdplmJP0
    March 28, 2010

    Hmmm, and he’s a great physicist. He makes a good case for the expanding Earth : http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2009/02/23/expansion-by-way-of-stretch-marks/

    Oh, and the Big Bang is a conspiracy by socialists…

  662. #664 Zabinatrix
    March 28, 2010

    Ok Bird, it’s bedtime for me, but before I go I have to attempt to ask one more time. What would the “science maffia” have to gain by lying about special relativity and so on, if it is so obvious that they are wrong? How would that possibly benefit them?

    Coming up with new things, revolutionizing how we look at the world, is what’s good for scientists. If people spend all their time working to “maintain the status quo” science doesn’t get done.

    And if it is because, as you say, “the science maffia is too stupid” – how do you explain that science, you know, works?

    You say that it is obvious to people in general that they are wrong. So if scientists are not lying (against their own self interest!) they must be more stupid and less informed than people in general. They must be utterly incapable to figure anything out.

    But you still sit there with a nifty computer, right now, proving to you that science works. You can use a GPS receiver and see how well it works despite all the “bogus relativity theory” employed in GPS-systems. If you’re rich enough you can become a space tourist. In all aspects of life you can see the rapid development of technology – all based on the work of those scientists you distrust so much.

    In short, science works. So what is it? Are scientists too stupid to work out something that is obvious to everyone else, but smart enough to launch GPS satellites and design nuclear facilities?

    Or are they (for some so far completely unexplained reason) acting against their own best self-interest, keeping the lid on the whole relativity conspiracy?

    Please explain your conspiracy theory. I am so curious. Every good conspiracy theory requires not only a notion about a conspiracy going on, but also some sort of real or imagined motivation for those conspiring against you.

    What would the scientists’ motivation be? Why are they conspiring against you? You say that they bully you, that they are a “maffia”, that they are performing a racket… But why? What would they stand to gain from that? You must have some idea, so please enlighten me. I’m sure it will be most illuminating. Or at least entertaining.

  663. #665 Carlie
    March 28, 2010

    Its a phrase I took from Malcolm X.

    Yeah, you really don’t get to do that, actually.

  664. #666 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    They hahahahaha are not conspiring against me???

    hahahaha. Look they are just blockheads mate? Like you are?

    Why are you asking me? Its only your own behaviour writ large?

    What is needed is a little bit of navel gazing on your part. I cannot answer these questions for you because I don’t identify with you, I half identify with PZ, I don’t identify with Singer, though I see his technical ability…..

    …. So you’ve got to ask yourself pal. The answer cannot come from me, because I’m part of some goose-stepper ball, claiming that the emperor has clothes.

    All you have to do is extrapolate your own attitudes and habits and you will see how this parade of dumb continues.

    Can you do that?

    Are you capable of that?

    Are you capable of that at least?

    Ask not for whom the stupid-bell tolls. It tolls for thee.

  665. #667 Phasic
    March 28, 2010

    “Ask not for whom the stupid-bell tolls. It tolls for thee.”

    I’m totally stealing that, BTW.

  666. #668 MrFire
    March 28, 2010

    I’m all out of popcorn.

    Graeme Bird, will you please starfart and be done with it?

  667. #669 Suck Poppet
    March 28, 2010
    is anyone else here thinking poe?

    Look at his blog. This boy’s the real deal.

    Bloody hell.

    In that case, I substitute “poe” with “loony bigot”.

    242 fellow Aussies were deluded enough to vote for this crackpot – we’re doomed I tells ya, DOOOOOOOOMED

  668. #670 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Look they are just blockheads mate?

    No, you are fuckwit. Your opinion is worthless. What an egotistical fool you are.

    What is needed is a little bit of navel gazing on your part. I

    That is for loser woomeisters like yourself. Reality is for scientists, and adults. Which leave you out cricket.

    Ask not for whom the stupid-bell tolls. It tolls for thee.

    No, it tolls for you regularly. After all, I can cite the scientific literature to back up my claims. You cite nothing but your inane, insane, and totally unwarranted opinion. What an idjit fuckwit loser.

  669. #671 Graeme Bird
    March 28, 2010

    “Yeah, you really don’t get to do that, actually.”

    Is that so?

    Well fuck-you too idiot now up above I said this except for what is now in capitals:

    “The answer cannot come from me, because I’m NOT part of some goose-stepper ball, claiming that the emperor has clothes.”

  670. #672 Carlie
    March 28, 2010

    Graeme Bird, will you please starfart and be done with it?

    Maybe if we repeat to him often enough how there are lots of black people who are smarter than him and make more money than he does, it will happen. Hey Bird, there are also lots of aboriginal Australians who are smarter than you.

  671. #673 Caine, Fleur du mal
    March 28, 2010

    Game Bird:

    And you public servant house niggers are just getting in the way.

    Aaaaand there’s the reveal. There’s the reason every birther and teabagger is just so gosh darned upset. There’s an uppity black man in a position of power, dammit! Will no one ride to the lynching party rescue?

    Disgusting. Loathsome. Pathetic.

  672. #674 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    “The answer cannot come from me, because I’m NOT part of some goose-stepper ball, claiming that the emperor has clothes.”

    No, you are simply a delusional fool with an ego bigger than his intellect. We know that. That makes you a fuckwit loser idjit until you decide, at this blog, to shut the fuck up. Which you should have done days ago, if your super inflated ego wasn’t in the way of your minuscule intellect…

  673. #675 Carlie
    March 28, 2010

    “The answer cannot come from me, because I’m NOT part of some goose-stepper ball, claiming that the emperor has clothes an idiot who has no idea what I’m talking about.”

  674. #676 https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawlZhMUnjA9BsWP9zojf401f2aINdplmJP0
    March 28, 2010

    Oh, it gets better http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/the-pyramids-and-the-post-quaternary-catastrophe-cannabilisation-of-the-capital-goods-of-a-technologically-superior-civilisation/ :

    So the pyramid was built to shield something or some people from a disaster of the sort that would come from a galactic centre explosion. The pyramid of Giza was built to protect from the disasters we have been talking about. The galactic centre explosions that can explode stars (ie create supernovae) Explode planets, create coronal mass ejections, and create a chain of disasters here on earth. The Pyramid was made such that it would shield things and people from not only the gamma ray burst that comes with these galactic centre events and supernova explosions. But also from the subsequent myriad catastrophes that radiate out from these powerful galactic centre events. [...]

    Its proven beyond the shadow of the valley of a doubt that this crowd did not build the Sphinx. And I?m not buying anymore that these decadent assholes built the pyramids. I?m not putting up with that jive anymore. The Sphinx?s age cannot be younger than 5,100 years old. It could be anything from 5,500 years old, to 50,000 or 100,000 years old. With 10,000 years old as a commonsense minimum.[...]

    For my own part I?m saying that the Sphinx was built by the space-travelling generations that lived just before the Quaternary Catastrophe that killed the Mastodon and other big critters. And I?m saying that the Pyramids were built within two or three generations of that date.[...]

    With alien intervention the situation is entirely comprehensible. The Anunnaki come down with only the technology in their ships. Their bases are on the moon where they may have abundant Helium 3 resources. They come down, screw with our genes, ignore inlanders, build a lot of stuff with stone since they are dealing with outpost technology combined with slaves. And everything fits together easily and according to Hoyles.

    And Sasquatch is Homo Erectus…
    http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2010/01/11/sasquatch-predjudices-live-on-long-after-the-evidential-picture-has-changed/

  675. #677 Kagato
    March 28, 2010

    Ladies and gentlemen, I think we are approaching a Timecube rating of 1.

    That’s an achievement all of its own.
    Congratulations, sir! World-class crazy.

  676. #678 Zabinatrix
    March 28, 2010

    So, I was passing by the computer again when I suddenly thought of a conspiracy theory of my own. And since I’m always amused by conspiracy theories, I thought that I had to share.

    I think that the teabaggers are paying Bird. I think they hired him to derail conversations like this.

    The conversation starts with “Tebaggers promote terrorism!” and then Birdie boy swoops in with “I don’t know Obama’s old girlfriends! Liberals are lying to us about special relativity! Time doesn’t exist! I will make these assertions but not in any way explain where I get my information from – if you ask for evidence you are idiot sheep!” and everyone goes “Uhm… What?”

    Ta-da – attention successfully diverted from teabagger terrorists. Rather ingenious. I hope they pay him well, because he seems to be really working hard!

  677. #679 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 28, 2010

    Ah, the sasquatch shit. Still no body from the hunters and loggers in the area, but they did find a WWII era plane. Something isn’t adding up. Like the lack of bones, and the exposure of known fakers of tracks and movies…

  678. #680 https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawlZhMUnjA9BsWP9zojf401f2aINdplmJP0
    March 28, 2010

    Ta-da – attention successfully diverted from teabagger terrorists. Rather ingenious. I hope they pay him well, because he seems to be really working hard!

    Not impossible. He admits he is a propagandist:”You see how you are fighting a losing battle with skilled propagandists such as myself out there?

    I?ll get all the foreigners on my side and then the new thinking will filter back into the English-Speaking world and become hardened dogma.”

  679. #681 Kagato
    March 28, 2010

    And now, the musical number (seriously, does that sound like the first line of a llame Broadway musical number?).


    My Blog Is a Fucking Magnificent Blog

    A Broadway Musical by Graeme Bird

    “Choc-full of ideas and speculations!”
    - Graeme Bird, Author

  680. #682 sunioc
    March 28, 2010

    Of course until the end of time you will always get anyone sensible writing in to point out to you the obvious.

    Wait, I thought time didn’t exist?

  681. #683 Notkieran
    March 28, 2010

    Caine @#674:
    The trouble is that after the reveal there is no prestige

    Bird actually thinks the man trashed me in a physics argument? He thinks that a man with no training in physics trashed me?

    I mean, it’s not like I know anything about physics, apart from having a degree in it and teaching it for a living.

    Oh. Wait. I don’t actually have any proof do I?

    I don’t have a degree certificate. I have a certificate of my degree.

  682. #684 Feynmaniac
    March 28, 2010

    Kagato #682,

    LMAO!

  683. #685 MrFire
    March 28, 2010

    With alien intervention the situation is entirely comprehensible. The Anunnaki come down with only the technology in their ships. Their bases are on the moon where they may have abundant Helium 3 resources. They come down, screw with our genes, ignore inlanders, build a lot of stuff with stone since they are dealing with outpost technology combined with slaves.

    Y’know, Graeme Bird is right that a exceeding a certain barrier is not necessarily physically impossible. Trouble is, that barrier is 1.0 Timecube.

  684. #686 PZ Myers
    March 28, 2010

    So sorry, thread closed for excessive length. Have no fear, fresh thread is available.

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