Yesterday, I linked to an offensive poll by Minnesota Republicans in district 42 (that's one of the Minneapolis suburbs, by the way). My readers marched in, voted against their support for Arizona's racial-profiling, anti-immigrant law, and completely skewed the results to be against the desired Republican outcome.
This happens often enough; the point is that these kinds of internet polls do not reliably produce accurate results, and it's easy to twist a poll in a contrary way. Most often these polls are put up as a kind of exercise in self-affirmation, because, for instance, very few non-Republicans read the SD42 Republican web site, and what we do is subvert that backpatting purpose of the poll.
What typically happens then is that eventually the poll is archived or closed, and everybody moves on. It's a freakin' internet poll, you know — it's inconsequential. Only…the Republicans of SD42 just can't let it go. It's apparently very important to them that they preserve their illusion that their readers support their policies in every possible way.
So what did they do? Multiple resets of the poll, throwing out all of the votes — for a while, they were resetting it every 10 minutes. Attempts to lock the poll: they'd let votes accumulate for a few minutes from a fresh start, and as soon as their side showed a slight edge, freeze it there (some of the readers here discovered an alternate path to the polling service and worked their way around it). Rewriting the answers, first to remove the stereotypical language, then to reverse the sense of the answers (we were not fooled), and now…and now, look at what they've done.
Do you believe in enforcing our nation's immigration laws?
Yes. An orderly immigration policy is essential to maintaining a free society.
Yes. And that is why I support Arizona's immigration law.
That is amazingly pathetic.
I declare this pharyngulation a total victory, the most complete demolition of a poll that we have ever accomplished. They are in a shambles, reduced to displaying meaningless noise that doesn't even have a pretense of giving voters a choice.
Imagine if these clowns were actually running our real world election system…oh, wait. They are.
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Phyrric victory!
I think that the funniest part is that they felt the need to keep a poll up there with no choices. They could have just ... remove the poll quietly, learned the lesson that if you put a stupid poll on your website it can be gamed easily, and resolved not to put stupid polls on their website anymore.
Instead they feel the need to display to the world that if you disagree with a law that gives the government the power to ask for your papers to prove your citizenship any time a police officer demands them, then you can't be a Republican anymore. I'd say it's astounding, but it's actually not anymore.
Once again, satire writes itself, showing that no Intelligent Satirist (IS) is needed.
You couldn't make this shit up. Brilliant!
Normally, I find the poll-pharyngulatin' kind of boring, but this is pretty cool. Genuine mischief against miscreants. Go interwebs.
Wow, this is like "elections" in totalitarian governments where there is only one candidate and he gets 99% of the votes.
Poll-pharyngulatin' is supposed to be kind of boring. If it required serious effort to skew a poll, then it wouldn't be demonstrating the trivial fallacy of internet polling.
Today, I am a proud pharyngulator. Mission accomplished.
For the Republican party being able to vote for "yes" or "yes" is considered democratic.
For the Republican party being able to vote for "yes" or "yes" is considered democratic.
For the "Party of No" voting "yes" and "yes" is fascist communism wrapped in a Kenyan muslim totalitarian dictator who went to a black supremacist christian church.
I think it's worth pointing out that the Republicans are split on this issue. The big business types like the status quo.
Actually, maggotpunk, I'd bet that if a vote like this was brought up in congress, the Republicans would filibuster against the yes that Obama is in favor.
Touchy lot, aren't they.
Nothing like a fun job well done. Now on to my real work...
Maybe they wanted to prove that they weren't the party of "No"?
This is hilarious. I would be calling it a Poe if it wasn't the official web site of someone running for a state office.
@Abdul #11: And that is why the Republicans are never, ever going to actually follow through on all the immigration noise, at least on the federal level. Yeah, they'll screech and bluster, but in the end they're bought and paid for by corporate interests. (Not that the Democrats are much better; it's just a different set of corporate interests. If only there were an actual chance of a third party winning a major election.)
Right. But not just any poll gets selected. We could pharyngulate a poll about which mayonnaise is the zippiest, but we do tend to have a go at polls concerned with godliness, conservatism and woo...presumably because it's fun to mess with idiots seeking consensus, and the questions that these polls present are beacons of idiocy. Nevertheless, proving that internet polls are poor indicators by itself...well, we have done that. I'm just saying that the republican reaction here is so beyond-the-pale-stupid, that it has put a new shine on pharyngulating for me. So thanks.
Never under estimate the power of Stuupid.
There will be a day when the result of this pharyngulation will be seen as sane in comparison.
I love Pharyngulating. When are the T-shirts coming out? you could sell them through the RDF website. Hell I'd buy em.
Have you been pharyngulated?
Get Pharyngulated
I like to Pharyngulate ;-)
All the smart people are Pharyngulating
Just my suggestions. I know, crass and not really a serious comment about Pharyngulating. I think every Idiotic poll concerned with woo, etc. should be struck.
No.
Do You Support The War Against Oceania?
Yes: War is Peace
Yes: I don't want my face to be eaten by rats
Business Republicans love the current system of fake immigration laws and easy abuse of undocumented workers. They are quite happy to let the bigots in their party take the heat for being stupid.
This is just brilliant... every time the whiners come around and complain about our skewing of polls, we always point out the myriad reasons why we do it, and one (although not the only) of those reasons is that normally the polls are directed at an audience sympathetic to their obviously preferred result, or intentionally word the questions in a misleading way to achieve the result they want. What we want to do is frustrate them into revealing their true intent of self-affirmation by closing the poll or removing it completely when it isn't going the way they want.
But never have we actually managed to frustrate them into flat out proclaiming that there was only one right answer, and do so in the poll itself!
What an embarrassment for Minnesota district 42. I'd love to see them try to use the results of this poll now, though. Hah!
The Republicans are only split on the immigration issue on a very superficial level. The fact is, the big business types don't just want immigrant labor — they want illegal immigrant labor, and they want the laborers to be as confused and scared and marginalized as possible, because it makes them that much easier to exploit. As long as Republican policymaking on immigration falls short of mass-scale deportation, which it always has and always will, anything that pushes immigrants further from being accepted members of American society is good for their employers' bottom lines. Hence, the GOP's corporate masters permit the base to indulge in xenophobia and racism.
It's the same situation as any other anti-immigrant movement in our country's history, from anti-Irish to anti-Chinese to anti-whatever, and in a lot of ways it's the same situation as African slavery. In all of those cases, the powerful exploit the lowest of the lower class for cheap (or free) labor, and when the masses get angry that their jobs are drying up, they get conned into taking our their anger on the exploited instead of the powerful themselves.
@Ing: Of course not. We ARE Oceania. Can't go to war against oneself. Be treason, which is NOT cricket.
The Republicans are only split on the immigration issue on a very superficial level. The fact is, the big business types don't just want immigrant labor — they want illegal immigrant labor, and they want the laborers to be as confused and scared and marginalized as possible, because it makes them that much easier to exploit. As long as Republican policymaking on immigration falls short of mass-scale deportation, which it always has and always will, anything that pushes immigrants further from being accepted members of American society is good for their employers' bottom lines. Hence, the GOP's corporate masters permit the base to indulge in xenophobia and racism.
It's the same situation as any other anti-immigrant movement in our country's history, from anti-Irish to anti-Chinese to anti-whatever, and in a lot of ways it's the same situation as African slavery. In all of those cases, the powerful exploit the lowest of the lower class for cheap (or free) labor, and when the masses get angry that their jobs are drying up, they get conned into taking out their anger on the exploited instead of the powerful themselves.
The Republicans are only split on the immigration issue on a very superficial level. The fact is, the big business types don't just want immigrant labor — they want illegal immigrant labor, and they want the laborers to be as confused and scared and marginalized as possible, because it makes them that much easier to exploit. As long as Republican policymaking on immigration falls short of mass-scale deportation, which it always has and always will, anything that pushes immigrants further from being accepted members of American society is good for their employers' bottom lines. And so, the GOP's corporate masters permit the base to indulge in xenophobia and racism to keep the underclass in line.
It's the same situation as any other anti-immigrant movement in our country's history, from anti-Irish to anti-Chinese to anti-whatever, and in a lot of ways it's the same situation as African slavery. In all of those cases, the powerful exploit the lowest of the lower class for cheap (or free) labor, and when the masses get angry that their jobs are drying up, they get conned into taking out their anger on the exploited instead of the powerful themselves.
Shit, how did triple post happen? That's a new one.
Re: Peter's T-Shirt idea (Comment #20) - how about "Pharyngulaters do it with polls" ??
Rog
What I especially love about this, is how unaware republicans are of their standing in the rest of the world. I formerly laboured under the illusion that Republicans and Democrats were pretty much the same thing; Rabid nationalists of the UK Independents variety. Now after 8 years of bush and 18 months of Obama, I realise what a gulf there is between the two.
This realisation is going to cost the republicans in the long term because for better or worse (I think for better) we now live in a connected, deeply interdependent world; a world in which no sane government anywhere wants the republicans running america. Whatever the topic, banking legislation, nuclear disarmament, international aid; the republican party gets it wrong on everything.
Twenty years ago that made only a modest difference, but now, through facebook, twitter and hundreds of blogs and forums, the global contempt for the republican party is flooding into the american psyche from every direction.
I think they are doomed. I certainly hope so. You heard it here first!
"All your polls are belong to us"
Here's another example of GOP petty-stupidity:
http://huff.to/b702vs
That's all they got!
Internet, meet winner.
SC,
Wow. For a change I entirely agree with SC on something. :-)
American immigration laws (and those of many other countries) are entirely unenforceable; it would be neither physically possible, nor desirable, to actually enforce them consistently. The only thing these laws accomplish is attaching the stigmatised status of "illegal immigrant" to some of the poorest and most vulnerable people, therefore disenfranchising these people and depriving them of the rights and protections which legal residents enjoy, and leaving them open to wholesale exploitation by employers.
"Amnesty" should not be a dirty word, and it's sad that right-wing anti-immigration nuts have made it so. Realistically, a full amnesty for existing illegal immigrants in the US, allowing them to achieve legal resident status, is the only decent and sensible option.
As alluded to by several others, the GOP have a wonderfully Orwellian approach to polls.
American immigration laws (and those of many other countries) are entirely unenforceable; it would be neither physically possible, nor desirable, to actually enforce them consistently.
Probably not 100% enforceable, but one thing that could very well cut down on illegal immigration would be to reduce the number of jobs available to illegals, and the way to do that is to fine employers who hire illegals, and fine them heavily. Like, oh, $100K for each illegal worker hired, and $500K for each year illegals worked for the employer.
This would include the rich who have a bad habit of hiring illegals to do their dirty work. Here in San Antonio, the average maid in upscale Shavano Park is illegal and works 6 days a week, 10 hours a day, and is paid about $200/wk + (if the maid's lucky) a $30/month bus pass. Minimum wage for a 40 hour week is $290. Sometimes, I even see maids bringing their own cleaning supplies!
Like you said, the employers exploit the workers, and that's why I think they need an, uh, incentive plan not to do it. The incentive is to hold onto more of their money and hire legal workers at a fair wage so that they don't have to pay Uncle Sam the big $$$$$$ (not to mention those pesky lawyers).
Not that this will ever happen. It's just a thought.
coughlanbrianm at #32
I agree. The current GOP reminds me of the Soviet Union as the personal computer era was ramping up in the 80s. It turned out to be very difficult to run a repressive regime over the long run when the regime lost control of information. The small-tenters that control the GOP apparatus don't appear to realize that they control less and less every day.
I sent them an email telling them they are cowards.
Anybody else notice the irony of this. I mean, it's kind of like the Hobson's choice that is American politics. You can vote for the conservative, rich, old white guy on the left or the even more conservative, even richer, old white guy on the right. It kind of makes it difficult to ridicule So-damn Insane's balloting process, though. "Oh, look. 100% of people approve!"
I am a lifelong Arizona resident, and the Republicans running the show at the moment ARE petty and stupid.
My issue with this is that the state's k-12 education budget is currently 1.5 Billion dollars in the red. All of the school districts have just cut 2% - 6% (depending on local management of the district, some cut none) of their entire staffs in preparation for next school year, with the expectation that even more will have to be cut the following year.
The interesting part is that in Arizona, the estimated drain on the k-12 budget due to educating children of illegal immigrants is around a billion dollars, although no one is certain, because evidently it is illegal to collect those types of statistics, what with being sensitive to everyone's feelings and all.
The upshot is that while I am not advocating for all of the illegal children to be tossed from the school system, they are causing a severe hardship for students whose parents DO pay taxes and contribute to the system, while the illegals do not, and the federal government has been dragging their feet on these issues for decades.
Something needs to be done now. Is this the right thing to do? I don't know, but maybe some people will become incensed over this action, and a real discussion for a solution will begin. Sounds like a good strategy no?
You could. Or, alternatively, America could just do the morally decent thing, and simply adopt much less restrictive immigration laws. The current laws aren't just unenforceable; they're also ridiculous in and of themselves.
If people want to travel across national borders to work and contribute to the economy, and employers are willing to hire them, where's the harm in that? It is beneficial to the migrant, to the employer, and to society as a whole through his or her contributions to the economy. No one loses, except right-wing xenophobes who are irrationally scared of "foreigners taking our jobs".
Economic migration is therefore a good thing. So why not just legalise it? Legalising currently illegal immigration would mean that immigrants would enjoy legal rights and protections, and would be protected from wholesale exploitation by their employers. This would be a good thing from the perspective of common human decency. And it would help American workers too, since they would no longer have to compete with illegal workers who are paid below-minimum wage.
Did all the Republicans publicly recant and apologise for lying to the great unwashed before committing sepukku?
"The Pope told me pharyngulating would make me blind and give me hairy palms, but all I got was a love of squid and this lousy T-shirt."
@ Walton
A friend who owns a large plant nursery and landscaping company has pointed out another problem with the existing immigration rules. In order to hire foreign workers legally, one has to advertise the job in a local newspaper that publishes daily for some minimum number of days. And one has to do this for each position one fills. So for every worker he hires, he ends up paying a major American newspaper hundreds of dollars. The existing system creates some unbelievably weird incentives. (Landscapers versus newspaper publishers? Very strange.)
Thing is, Arizona already has this law on the books now... The Legal Arizona Worker's Act requires all employers to use a system called e-verify, an internet based registration system that allows employers to verify workers' residency status, which is supposed to carry heavy fines for violators... the problem is, neither the Governor nor the AD has not bothered to enforce this law, and only a small percentage of AZ employers are abiding by the law.
So instead of actually upholding an already existing law, the answer is obviously racial profiling and stopping brown people.
Ludicrous and dangerous. And once again America is made to look like an incompetent laughing stock to the rest of the world thanks to hate-filled, racist republican morons.
I'm not sure of what it does exactly... but it seems that it is possible to vote without choosing an answer. The vote count still goes up. And it works several times (possibly with no limit).
If you wish to experimentally confirm my observation, be my guests. The only problem is that it might mess up the poll. And we surely don't wish this.
Economist Paul Krugman recently commented on this difference in attitudes toward immigration among the Republicans.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/26/the-curious-politics-of-imm…
The leadership, supporters of plutocracy and banksters, is delighted to have a virtually-free labor force with no voice and no rights.
However, the BASE is made up largely of Haters of the Brown, who want all dark-skinned people kicked out of the country and a moat constructed ASAP.
Krugman optimistically suggests this as a problem for the GOP, but I think he underestimates the raw stupidity of the teabagger base, which has always ensured that they'll keep voting for the plutocrats no matter how strongly they disagree, as long as there's an (R) after the name.
PHARYNGULATE THIS POLL!
http://www.azcentral.com/news/
Was Gov. Jan Brewer right or wrong to sign the (SB 1070) immigration bill?
A.) Right.
B.) Wrong.
C.) Hard to say
REX #42,
"Illegals" can and do pay taxes. From my experience (I live in LA) very few get paid cash only. Of those who get their taxes withheld, even many file taxes with an ITIN.
Andyo #50
There's also the point that if they buy anything, they pay taxes with sales tax. If they buy certain commodities like gasoline or alcohol, they also pay excise tax. They're likely too poor to really pay anything significant with income tax (Arizona doesn't have a flat income tax, so I can only assume it's progressive).
How are they not deeply, deeply ashamed of themselves?
They prove that humans have no souls.
OK, so in the spirit of "let's do a marginally scientific experiment" mixed with "fuck'em", how about all the 'brown people' (love that euphamism, how sensitive and caring) down tools, leave AZ for a week or so and let's see how quickly the place slides into chaos.
How 'bout we all get bumper stickers printed up that say
Ask Me
About My Immigration Status
Also property taxes. Of course very few illegal immigrants actually own property here, but they do pay their landlords rent, and their landlords use that rent to pay property taxes, among other things.
There is the claim that their rent / property tax burden is lessened because they cohabit in large groups in violation of zoning ordinances. But it's not really clear how true or common that is, and it's not as though legal residents don't often do the same thing.
REX@42
Here's a though, toss out the immigration laws, give them workers rights, pay them legally and then you get your income tax.
Also, I didn't know you could skip sales tax if you just claimed to be an illegal.
CE @33
Great idea - not "polls" though, should be:
I'd add a garish and pixelated squid picture.
what Andyo in #50 said. Many "illegals" work on faked SSN's, on which both they and their employers have to pay payroll taxes. And unless they're illegal immigrants from Montana or Oregon, they have to pay sales taxes, too.
And then there's the point that everybody who doesn't live in their car contributes to school-budgets, since those come from property taxes, which both property owners and renters (via their rents) contribute to.
@ Rex #42
So you think that racial profiling is going to somehow generate discourse between lawmakers to fix the state budget? Did you say that thought out loud before you hit the submit button?
First, fear and panic does not facilitate rational discussion. It is a self perpetuating scheme that creates a larger amount of fear and panic.
Second, The state budget is FUBAR from the housing crisis and unemployment. Both are turning around. "Kick out the beaner" is not a solution to solving ANYTHING! The majority of illegal immigrants here are hispanic, but they certainly aren't the only group. I see Somali immigrants playing soccer by my house and I can see their assholes pucker when a cop comes by. There are plenty of Asian, Indian, and Europeans here too. This bill isn't going to after them. Only the hispanics, who I might add do a lot of work and contribute far more than they burden.
A Day Without a Mexican
Ambook--
What your friend is describing is the "perverse incentives" involved when he insists on hiring foreign workers because he isn't prepared to pay a wage that citizens or legal residents will accept for the job. If he was actually looking to fill the job, rather than "prove" that he can't so he can hire foreigners for less, he could advertise "15 gardeners wanted," state a competitive wage, and if there aren't a lot of locals interested (say, if he's out in the Hamptons) run the ads in other parts of the U.S., rather than go straight to looking abroad. We aren't talking about sufficiently rare skills that no unemployed American is qualified for the job, after all.
If there's a "perversity" there, it's that the people who hire him, and might balk at paying more for his company's services, likely complain about jobs going to foreigners. The newspaper is not being perverse: they may be the only ones playing honestly, because they charge the same for those ads as for job ads that are meant to be answered.
Ha, I can't get to the poll because my workplace filter designates it as a Spam Email URL. How true.
And THAT'S why I don't vote.
Congratulations, you're part of the problem.
Zazzle is an easy place to make custom tees. I might just have a new shirt soon.
I find this hi-larious.
But then, it IS a propaganda site, so I'm not surprised. Plus, it's probably just one webmaster charged with agitprop maintenance.
Here we go....
Check out the list of "elected officials" on the SD 42 site - one is named "Jenifer Loon." Perfect.
#51: "(Arizona doesn't have a flat income tax, so I can only assume it's progressive)."
Dangerous assumption. Everything in Arizona is regressive.
I work for a place that does some work for the Fed and DOD. It came up in a memo that we sent out to one of them "Order must be delivered by US Citizen". This baffled the FUCK out of me. Why would they care? If it's a safety concern then it's a damn stupid one. Tim McVeigh is ok but Jose from UPS isn't? Is the pentagon really going to turn away their order because an illegal dropped it off?
Not no draw any definitive conclusion about Republicans (GOP) from this poll, but it seems that the constant rewording of their (meaningless) poll reflects their actual standing in public policy. They just flip-flop to what it seems convinient to their base.
All I am saying is that for decades, Arizona and the United States have had laws on the books regarding legal and illegal immigration. The only problem is that for some reason, it has not been possible before now, to identify and deal with people who ARE BREAKING THE LAW. Before this, police who were called to a car accident, or a disturbance have been PROHIBITED from asking about immigration status. Now they are able to.
I can cite problems with illegal immigration as it impacts government services in Arizona. Education, insurance, medical care, government services are all impacted (notice I didn't say jobs). Arizona citizens are subsidizing all of these things for the illegal population. It seems to be a bit different in Minnesota.
The point is, something needs to be done with Arizona and New Mexico, and Texas, and California each footing this bill alone. If the Federal government wants to have an open door policy so that we can care for northern Mexico fine, but they should pony up a few billion to each state most directly affected so that the local Americans aren't disadvantaged by this open door policy. A policy that affects us more than the rest of the country.
That is the discussion I was referring to.
that's because the US used to have this rule about "innocent until proven guilty". the cops also can't ask you if you're beating your wife, growing pot in your backyard, or have murdered and consumed one baby a week since your 18th birthday (and more importantly, you don't actually have to answer these questions, either. "right to remain silent, and all that jazz")
Re T-shirt slogan:
Suggestion: "Pharyngulaters do it for a reason" or "Pharyngulaters do it reasonably well."
oh yeah. Every single poster who responded to you is Minnesotan, because this is just that kind of provincial blog.
dude, you're an idiot.
It's such a complex issue. I agree that the people who hire illegal immigrants are the main cause of the problem, and enforcement of existing law needs to start with corporate scofflaws.
Greg Palast wrote a fascinating article about the motivations behind this 'show proof of citizenship' law. He argues that it's designed to suppress the hispanic democrat vote.
http://www.gregpalast.com/behind-the-arizona-immigration-lawgop-game-to…
Then one wonders why the law didn't require ALL residents to carry proof of citizenship instead of just immigrants. Actually, one doesn't. One knows why: because the white, rich, republicans would fucking freak.
You are completely out of touch on this. Illegal immigrants run our slaughterhouses in South Carolina, Farm our land in Kansas and Iowa, cook our food at restaurants at truck stops all across the US, etc. Illegal immigration is a national issue and if this bill passes through the Supreme Court then other states are going to follow suit. That would be absurd!!
This bill allows the police to question anyone they feel is suspicious of being here illegally whether they are breaking the law or not! And if you get caught without proof then you go to jail. I don't have to think very hard to come up with scenarios that put US citizens in jail for doing nothing other than not having proof.
Look, this bill isn't going to cut down on education cost or decrease the gap in spending v. income. All it is going to do is tie up the courts with more bogus cases and cost the state MORE money. If the US wants to seriously manage illegal immigration in a reasonable and indiscriminate manner then it needs to remove the reason for the immigrants to risk all they have to come here. JOBS!!! This bill is bad for US citizens!
more importantly, what do they have against resident aliens? are they afraid of foreigner cooties? (and wouldn't foreigner cooties attach to double-citizens and naturalized citizens, too, or does the american citizenship neutralize the foreign cooties?)
Repeating from the last thread, http://www.twiigs.com/user/sd42webmaster?s=all has a whole bunch of polls that can be crashed
Okay okay I give! I am sorry that I said that I have lived here my whole life and probably have a better feel for Arizona than Minnesotans would! I am sorry that I said that we are being overrun and that our government services are stretched to the breaking point, and that something needs to be done about it! My kids already go to school in the poorest per capita state, but hey, the more the merrier! 50 kids per classroom is good for the students' character! Bring them all in! Viva la Raza! Down with whitey! Forget about asking anyone for ID during a traffic stop, wouldn't want to have a profiling issue on our hands! Forget about requiring anyone but law abiding citizens to have auto insurance, and for god's sake (lol!), don't hurt anyone's feelings just because they are breaking the law!
Wow! And they say that the conservatives are rabid knee jerk reactors! Good thing I wasn't advocating for god. We could have had a lynching!
Get down off the cross. We need the wood.
The fundamental problem with this law, as has been pointed out to you, is it treats people who are in the country LEGALLY as criminals until proven otherwise, and targets a specific minority to do so, including natural born citizens. Now either you can address that or you can't.
And we're not all from Minnesota. Try fucking reading next time.
@ Rex #81
WOW...dooom and gloom in 4 posts? I hate to say it, but Jadehawk is right. You are and idiot. Your solution to immigration is racial profiling. Congrats you fucking asshole. I only hope your children learn that fearmongering is fucking stupid from the 50 kids in her class. I mean, Phoenix has gone from the 18th largest city to the 5th in under 15 years. The influx must be attributed to all those unisured Mexicans coming across the border. They're the cause for these overcrowded classrooms and the unbalanced budget. Not the people coming from the midwest for jobs and the agressive spending by Napalitano and even worse spending by Brewer.
Fuckwit! Go get a clue and come back when you have something to do other than whine.
Oh...and I happen to live in Phoenix so there goes your little thoery that those boys up in Minnesota don't really have a grasp on the problems down here...dontcha know!!!
Well, I have never in my life been pulled over where I was not asked for my ID. I guess I was profiled every time eh?
Have you ever been pulled over for the crime of driving while black? Or brown, as the case may be.
Fucking idiot. If you don't like immigration, solve it by cracking down on employers. That might actually work.
you do know that you don't need to be a citizen to get a driver's license? I have a german, a (expired) canadian, and an american one.
also, don't let your privilege stop you from pretending like there's no such thing as being pulled over for DWB.
I was chastised for not being able to read, but I think I am not alone. In my first post, I said that I didn't know that this was the solution, but with all of the problems that the border states have from illegal immigration, something must be done instead of another decade of hand wringing.
If this bill and the firestorm that it creates is the catalyst for a solution that addresses these problems, in a manner that everyone can live with, then it was a good first step. We have been taking no action for too long.
And if you look carefully, no where am I taking a pro racism stance. I am taking an anti inaction stance.
@ Jadehawk #79
It should read, "Delvieries will only be accepted by one of the Cleaver boys or Eddie Haskle."
From “pulled over” I assume you were driving. To drive, you need a license, and in many jurisdictions need to have the license with you when you are driving. As such, after being pulled over, it's reasonable for the officer to ask to see your license. Driving licenses are also a form of ID.
As to why you were pulled over, I've no idea. It's possible you were Driving While Black/Latino, but I doubt it (in your case). In your case, I presume you were pulled over because a possible traffic violation or apparent problem with your car. In other words, the officer noticed/saw something which appeared to suspicious or illegal; as such, you were not profiled.
Being Black/Latino is neither suspicious or illegal. That is, being Black/Latino is not, in and of itself, a reason to pull anyone over. Pulling someone over simply because they are Black/Latino is profiling.
if your call to action supports a racist law, then your call to action is in fact racist. You see, since we can't read people's minds, the only really reliable way to really judge whether something is racist or not is by the results it has.
"I declare this pharyngulation a total victory, the most complete demolition of a poll that we have ever accomplished."
Yeah, where can we possibly go from here?
I know, we can mount a giant, mother-of-all-attacks attack on that MSNBC poll about "In God We Trust" on our currency! YAAAAHHH!!!
It should read, "Delvieries will only be accepted by one of the Cleaver boys or Eddie Haskle."
Come now, even the Cleaver family didn't really trust Eddie...
Can't read?
Here is an update Slick
You posted:
I responded to this drivle with:
And As for inaction, There are several people here who have posted what measures need to be taken if the US is going to actually manage illegal immigration. ENFORCE EMPLOYMENT LAWS THAT ALREADY EXIST! Lawmakers already know what needs to be done. They don't want to do it because there will be a backlash in campaign contribution and, in case you have been living under a rock, there is a a Senate seat up for election in AZ.
It has been stated several times. This doesn't solve anything. It isn't going to reduce education costs or fix the state budget. It gives the sense of action to the fucking teabaggers who will go out and vote. And I hate to say it but there are a lot of them here.
Furthermore, this fucking racist bigoted bill is important because if it gets through the Supreme Court then other states are going to follow suit and adopt similar racist policies. I wonder if this is what it was like watching fascism being born in Germany?
You were driving. Every state requires the operator of a vehicle to be licensed. This law is requiring a license for being brown in Arizona.
You really are a moron if you think this is anything like similar.
And if you look carefully, you'll notice that the action your defending is racist. And I've noticed (because I did look carefully), that you've failed to address that single problem anywhere. "We must do something. This is something, therefore we must do this" is a really shitty argument.
It's not too late.
Rex the racist;
Well, I have never in my life been pulled over where I was not asked for my ID. I guess I was profiled every time eh?
But have you ever been walking down the street and stopped by a police officer and required to produce your birth certificate or passport? That is what this law requires officers to do to anyone who looks like they might be mexican. If you as a citizen of Arizona see a police officer not doing this, you can sue the city. This law does not just allow profiling, it requires it.
If you constantly look for racism everywhere, you will see it everywhere.
Besides, we have been suffering for decades with the problem of ILLEGAL immigration, and it wasn't really on the national radar screen, well guess what, it is now!
I am not saying that it is right, I am saying that it is a firestorm that is generating discussion and awareness and passion. Even here. Even off the normal topic.
The other thing that is interesting is that I have commented here many times before, usually concurring with PZ. Today I disagree, and the thread explodes.
I guess PZ's description of a legion of minions isn't too far off of the mark after all!
Interesting.
In science, there's a similar problem: a US university wanting to employ a foreigner must prove that there is no American for the job. Means, only the richest ones can employ foreigners, because they can pay the lawyers who can construct such a proof.
<headdesk>
Many, if not most, of the illegal immigrants just pass through Mexico these days. They come from places like Honduras and Guatemala.
Probably it's some 19th-century concept of patriotism and treason, the idea that citizens are less likely to leak state secrets than foreigners...
In other words, yes, they are afraid of foreigner cooties.
There's no such thing as a Canadian driver's license. Which province? :^)
:-D :-D :-D
And it doesn't even occur to you that maybe, just maybe, this one opinion of yours is built on a flaw? That, when you and PZ disagree, it might actually happen that PZ is right at least some of the time?
If you constantly look for racism everywhere, you will see it everywhere.
It doesn't take much looking to see that this bill law is racist.
I really can't believe you said that. It's almost like your response to the World Trade Center on 9/11 was "If you constantly look for terrorism everywhere then you will see it everywhere".
Rex...seriously...stop fucking posting! Each sentence makes you sound more stupid than the one that preceded it.
Immigration has been a hot topic in politics since forever. I have lived in 8 states and 3 countries and it is always the same. Find a labor force from somewhere else to do the work for us. In the US, we have imported slaves to pick cotton and harvest tobacco and we didn't want to give them shit. We brought Chinese people here to build us a railroad then kicked them out. Chavez worked to get rights for immigrant farmworkers in California. Palauans are working for free slaughtering chickens in Iowa. The US naturalized 30,000 illegals 5 years ago and I thought the Rupublicans were going to burn down SoCal. Fuck!! Read something other than the Arizona Republic man!!
So, you're also using the "welfare queen" argument?
You, sir, are classy as shit.
SteveM:
But have you ever been walking down the street and stopped by a police officer and required to produce your birth certificate or passport? That is what this law requires officers to do to anyone who looks like they might be mexican. If you as a citizen of Arizona see a police officer not doing this, you can sue the city. This law does not just allow profiling, it requires it.
I just finished reading the text, and it does not require what you are saying.
Find it and read it yourself, or continue being ignorant.
Want to bet. Every post. If you look latino, I or the police can discriminate. We know what racism is. You show it.
Go fuck yourself.
Find it and read it yourself, or continue being ignorant.
Here it is idiot. Improve your reading comprehension.
police officers must ask for proof of citizenship of anyone who looks like they might be an immigrant.
if a police officer does anything less than the maximum permitted by law, he can be sued.
Well, Mexico's foreign minister thinks it's a racist law, too:
From the article:
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/27/mexico-issues-advisory-for-arizona/
"FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY"
This does not mean that random profiling is mandatory, as the fear mongers are wailing.
Random profiling not lawful contact. It is still discriminatory and illegal, and rightfully so.
If you constantly look for racism everywhere, you will see it everywhere.
If you look at American society, you will see racism.
What the fuck is it with people who think that the United States is not a white supremacist society? Seriously, I want to know. Are they idiot enough to think the half-assed efforts of the past 40 years to undo the structures of white supremacy that had been erected over the previous 360 have not been met with resistance at every step, but instead have been greeted as necessary? The resentment of folks like Rex, and the Republicans in the Arizona legislature, and most of the Republican party today, for the fact that all those mud people aren't in their place any more is such fucking bullshit.
Hey, Whitey, you're still on top. Stop whining about how good minorities have it.
Yep, the law is racist. Dimwit racist Rex should be stopped every block by a brown/black police officer for a minor offense (the laws, like the babble, always give them an excuse if they look hard enough), and have every policeman demand to see his birth certificate and/or passport. Maybe after the tenth time he would see it is harassment.
Rex, read this.
Rex,
Stop it with the "ILLEGAL" and "BREAKING THE LAW" on caps. It's disingenuous and it's not an argument. These are as perfectly decent human beings as you and me or our mothers. Sending them home and separating families destroys lives. The punishment absolutely does not fit the "offense" of the dangerous and difficult decision they made to come and work just to have a shot at a semi-decent life. Believe me, if the punishment was something like fines instead, most will be extremely happy to pay them.
And your economic argument still doesn't fly. Why are "illegal" children the ones that should get out of the classes? Again, they do pay taxes and the ones who don't believe me they would be happy to (happier than certain "citizens" that like tea) if given the opportunity without fear of being deported (hint, hint).
I would also find interesting to see the numbers on all the "citizens" who abuse disability and unemployment. The US has a bigger problem with its own citizens leeching off the "system".
And this:
And you think this will make the neighborhoods safer how?
ha ha ha, awesome win for pharyngulation!
Soon on Fox:
Yes, or Yes? You decide!
Racial. Racial profiling. The term "random profiling" doesn't make any sense.
Yes, I'm aware that race alone doesn't legally satisfy the requirements of the Reasonable Suspicion standard.
I also know that Driving While Black didn't exactly evaporate after Terry v. Ohio.
This pretty much confirms something I've been musing about since Obama's election. Fox News=Pravda and Republicans=Stalin.
I also know that Driving While Black didn't exactly evaporate after Terry v. Ohio.
Had to have. Racism ended in 1965.
I wish I had participated in this Pharyngulation since it was so damn successful.
David Marjanović #98,
This is a chilling fact. How did you learn about it?
MAJeff #108:
Welcome to American white privilege and American white denial that it exists. :)
re 117:
This is a chilling fact. How did you learn about it?
I think David is referring to H1-B visas. As an engineer in "high tech", I've seen my managers have to jump through these kinds of hoops many times while trying to hire immigrant engineers.
Rex, you're a fucking moron.
I ask again, knowing full well what the answer will be, why didn't Arizona require ALL residents to carry, and present when asked, proof of citizenship or legal immigrant status?
When you can answer that question, you will finally understand what is wrong with this law.
Great Big Fucking Hint: It treats people who have committed no crime as criminals until they can prove otherwise, FOR BEING THE WRONG FUCKING COLOR.
I'm unsure what David was referring to, but like SteveM, when I was working in the USA, I also saw my managers jump through amazingly convoluted hoops to hire qualified engineers—who just happened to be foreign—and in one case, retain a very good engineer who'd worked for the company for years but who had made the mistake of letting her visa expire.
The usual trick was to place an very specific recruitment ad, such as “engineer with at least X years experience in A, Y years and B, Z years in C, must speak fluent Chinese and English, with a MSc in Blah-blah, a record of successful publication in professional journals, must be available immediately, …”. The desired person just so happens to exactly meet all the requirements, whilst the other candidates/applicants (if they even are any), fail to meet one or more. You can then show that you “found” a person who meets your needs, but who also happens to need a H1-B visa, so can that person please get the visa.
I say let's declare war and destroy every poll they put up until they give up.
David Marjanović #98,
Exactly. There are plenty of Americans who are qualified for the job but because they can hire a foreigner cheaper they construct a phony job requirement and then hire the foreigner. It is this kind of nonsense that leads to laws making it harder to hire foreigners.
I'm sure some employers try that approach, and surely some succeed - but when *I* was the foreigner going through the process (1993-4) the law required that I was paid *at least* as much as anyone else with similar qualities. Happily, I was paid quite a bit more. So, no 'cheap option'. A colleague from UK had a sizeable pay-rise at a similar point in his process when they realised he was 'underpaid'.
H1B is supposed to be about hiring very qualified specialists. The lack of Americans even pursuing technical educations let alone qualifying as expert is an exacerbating factor in the whole argument. The deranged American political process that allows large corporations almost total power is also an issue.
Well, I look and sound exactly like someone who just snuck into the US from Germany. I've got that white, doughy-faced look. My preferred diet (brats and beer) raises all sorts of ethnic red flags. And, like most Germans I've met, my English is better than the average native-born American's. Guess I'll stay out of Arizona.
thomas.paul I'm sure David meant that they wanted to hire the more qualified person who happens to be a foreigner. They can't hire the foreigner if Americans who are "qualified" (as per the ads) only answer to the ad, which doesn't mean that they're as competent as the foreigner.
re 126:
This has been my experience. We would get approval to hire a new engineer, after interviewing several, the most qualified is a foreign grad student here on a student visa. In order to actually hire him, we'd have to rewrite the job requirements so that only he would fit in order to meet the H1-B visa requirements. It was not to get a "cheaper" worker, but an obstacle to hiring the most qualified candidate.
Unfortunately, Republicans aren't the only bigots when it comes to immigration. Care2, a usually progressive site, was recently inundated with truly racist comments. Here are a couple examples, from the types of people who also say "plant trees for life."
This attitude goes further than simply one party; it is an American attitude that has deep roots in our society.
It shows a distinct lack of imagination to believe that the only possible reason anyone could be against illegal immigration is racism. The extent of illegal immigration into this country places a huge burden on our society that must be addressed before our impulse to compassion causes a catastrophic failure.
Assertion. Have any hard evidence you can cite to show that having a bunch of illegal aliens isn't a benefit?
It shows a distinct lack of imagination to believe that the only possible reason anyone could be against illegal immigration is racism
Handwaving your way into "the only possible reason is racism" was a pretty nifty move. Next, you'll be telling us that there's nothing racist at all going on in Arizona with the immigration bill combined with the anti-ethnic studies bill in a state party known for white supremacist policy preferences (and national party)
pff. By that logic, there's also no such thing as an American driver's license.
So I guess the actual total of my licenses is: one German, one Californian, one North Dakotan, one Manitoban :-p
I used to have a Washingtonian, too, but I lost it I think.
penfield:
Yes, it's such a burden to have people who will do all the shit jobs for shit wages.
The US and all other countries in the world have hugely benefited from immigration in the past. If illegal immigration is a huge burden on our society, an easy way to solve this is to make it legal.
I've been having this discussion on other forums as well. I don't see any reason other than (yes, I'll say it) racism (or, being generous, xenophobia) to think it would not be a good idea instead of kicking them out, imposing fines that they could pay and legalize them.
Oh yeah, almost forgot. There's the racists and there's also the egotistical dicks who are "legal" and hate "illegals" because they had to wait and "suffer" for years to get their green card.