It's hard to find something dumber than Kent Hovind, but here you go: the website of Herb Grossman, trashevolution. It's what Hovind could have produced if he'd been an alcoholic gay man in denial. He has a rambling, mostly incoherent set of pages that he claims disprove evolution, but if you read just one, it should be his page on homosexuality. It doesn't really exist, you know, although he has been feeling supernatural homosexual urges for years.
No one has to be a homosexual, because—
—Homosexuality is a Cruel Deception,
and you should not worry about possibly being a homosexual, because there is no such thing--homosexuality is an evil supernatural trick! The key is to fight it, and the sooner the better. I still sometimes get supernatural "urges" towards perversions or homosexuality, but by immediately rejecting "it" (both physically and mentally), "it" goes away.
What I write or say concerning belief in evolution being a major encouragement towards homosexuality is not meant to win some popularity contest. Some of you will laugh and think I am stupid for writing this, but the shoes I have walked in--the years of aggravation while fighting off the cause of homosexuality--have given me a certain amount of sympathy for the homosexual and a hatred for the way evolution is such a big factor in keeping many of them trapped in their unfortunate perversion. It would be a crime for me to know what I know and not do something, because I thoroughly believe that many people will benefit from knowing of the troubles I've been through and will be inspired to avoid or get out of the homosexual trap
He never does get around to explaining how evolutionary biology contributes to homosexuality, and after reading about his miserable life with two angry divorces, 35 years of alcoholism and gambling addiction, I'm thinking he's about the last person I'd want advising me on how to live a good life. Instead of actually addressing anything about evolution or homosexuality, though, what Mr Grossman does next is recite a litany of "supernatural" events that occurred to him and which prove there is a god. Here's my favorite of his examples:
I had several situations where I would be sitting and think of something good I could do, and a big foam-rubber-like hand would then pat me on a shoulder as if approving of my thoughts. Was an invisible person standing beside me? Some supernatural person was--and I was inclined to think "God," but I now suspect it was really someone conditioning me towards accepting supernatural deceptions.
Did I mention that he was a long-term alcoholic? Yes, I did. This is what most of his supernatural events are: imaginary incidents, bleary fantasies of seeing things that weren't there. And then, finally, he ties this all back to his ideas about homosexuality (but not evolution):
It wasn't long before I fell into about three months of doing perverse, homosexual acts with invisible, supernatural people/beings* Strong thoughts and sensations would get things started, but I was not the cause--no pornography used. Somebody had control of me! (I did meet up with some visible demonic types, but those encounters, although weird, were not of a homosexual nature).
*I have never acted in any perverted/homosexual manner with any man or boy, nor felt any attraction/sensation towards the same. However, I am not claiming total innocence on my part, as I must admit to some perverse actions (sometimes with use of pornography) in my past that I am ashamed of (I wish I knew then what I know now). Looking back, I suspect those past actions likely made me an attractive target to the supernatural "persons' that drive the homosexual deception system. To be fair, though, I realize there are many social forces and situations that might condition a person to accept the homosexual deception. and I do not doubt that some people have fallen into the homosexuality trap without having prior perverse activities:
What a sad, repressed, confused little man. He never felt any attraction towards other men…he just fantasized about homosexual acts with invisible people. And has so little ability to distinguish the imaginary from the actual that he thinks those dreaming encounters were real, but at the same time not real enough to count as gay impulses.
The other sad thing about his series of articles is that he's addressing them to "Mr. or Miss Teenager of America." He's trying to reach out to youth and convince them that he has all the answers, but I can guess what young people will think: "Ewww. Creepy old loser."
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The giant, invisible foam-rubber hand has major porn potential. Homeboy may be onto something.
I thought Kent Hovind WAS an alcoholic gay man in denial.
Lourdes is SO behind the times-- in Missouri, you can pay $10 to have an LED flipped on for you for 60 days! Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5eehHogFBU
Someone should do this for Grossman, I think his bulb went out a long time ago, haha.
*fish in barrel*
I feel so much pity for someone who's led a life this miserable. I really wish he'd seek mental help with all this.
What's the motherfucking Rat then?
I'm with you, Shala. It's so sad. Yet, on a certain level, it's a fascinating look into the way the brain can go wrong...
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with Shala.
I don't torment the mentally ill. There's more to be pitied than censured in someone this obviously off-kilter.
Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
"Supernatural trick" indeed.
In particular, his line about himself:
"Asked Jesus to take over my life when I was fifty-five, and my addictions disappeared overnight."
He must have snapped at this point.
The poor bugger.
He is clearly mentally ill, or at least very disturbed.
Mind you, I often think the same think about the sHAMster at AIG.
http://itsabiggie.blogspot.com/
Sad that he had such a terrible life and for that he should be pitied.
Shameful that he is using that to make other's lives worse and for that he should be pointed out and shown to be wrong.
I don't torment the mentally ill. There's more to be pitied than censured in someone this obviously off-kilter.
I think he should still be laughed at for his insane views. I also think he should seek mental help.
As usual, a case of mental illness becomes the excuse for "divine inspiration". He doesn't need the web, he needs proper medication
"I think he should still be laughed at for his insane views. I also think he should seek mental help."
He won't though because his religious views are masking his mental problems. It's part of the damage of religion, mentally ill people can dismiss their symptoms as supernatural or religious experiences. Just how more mild paranoid schizophrenics are less likely to be pinned as delusional when their delusions are about Christianity, then they're just hyper-religious.
:(
This makes me sad.
Just in case Herb Grossman comes to read these comments, I hope he reads this:
It is absolutely, 100% ok that you are a homosexual. Shed any guilt or shame you may feel about it. You're a grown man who is gay, there are literally tens of millions of people like you. Maybe more. It's normal. It's natural. It has nothing to do with evolution, it's just a thing that exists naturally in human beings. You have one life to live, make yourself happy, be a gay man, and if you're surrounded by people who will punish you for being gay, then plan to leave those surroundings...and just be a happy gay man somewhere.
His list of books to read is a mix. He has to-be-expected nonsenses like Darwin's Black Box, with a total absence of good books on evolution (e.g., The Blind Watchmaker or Evolution: What the Fossils Say & Why it Matters). The surprising thing is he does have some sensible book(s?) listed; the one that caught my eye is John Allen Paulos's Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and its Consequences.
And or course, his links page goes to expected places like AiG, but nothing like Panda's Thumb.
Fairly typical rubbish.
That poor man! I hope he gets the help he needs, and is able to come to terms with himself.
But this:
What I take away from this is that God is a sports fan. I wonder what's written on his big foam hand?
I wonder what's written on his big foam hand?
Energy
(line)Budget(/line) cuts
Tax
Lift Americans
Spirits
While true, that's never going to convince him.
What might help is evidence that sexual orientation is innate and can't be changed. A list of straight atheists? (As far as I can tell, he probably thinks godless people should be prime targets for his "supernatural persons". If so, how come none has ever visited me.) The papers that demonstrate the correlation between sexual orientation and relative finger lengths? "Recidivism" rates of pray-away-the-gay programs? Family trees of the royal house of France (Louis XIII and the brother of Louis XIV in particular)?
Dear Mr Grossman,
We sincerely hope you come to terms with how you are, as being in such denial can become even more toxic than anything you have experienced so far. As it is, you perfectly fit the expression "So far in the closet you're having adventures in Narnia".
I urge you to take Nineveh's advice and grow into a human at peace with himself and finally able to achieve happiness and self-fulfillment.
Sincerely Yours.
Actually... there's a paper that shows a correlation between male homosexuality and above-average female fertility in the same families. Looks like male homosexuality is, to some degree, a byproduct of a gene (or several) that confers a net fitness advantage.
However, male homosexuality is also the more common the more older brothers one has. And, as always, female homosexuality is underresearched.
Heck, I'm 47 and even I'm thinking 'Ewww. Creepy old loser'.
Is there no help for the mentally ill anymore? It's unfortunate that this exposure won't actually do anything to help the deranged man ('Creepy old loser'). Well, not if help is to be defined as anything other than increasing the number of hits to his sick, sad website.
There is no such thing as homosexuality, got to grant him as much.
Sex is in fact an act of reproduction, so if you just fuck with no possibility of reproduction as the result of this fucking (as when using contraceptives) or whatever it is you like to do or call it; it's not sex..
More like a kind of social play, in case of only males participating it's a male bonding ritual :P
I dunno. I've been researching it pretty heavily since 1995 (that being the first year I had ready access to high bandwidth).
He's exhibiting classic symptoms of the priesthood.
homosexual acts with invisible, supernatural beings does imply he's one of them himself.. Better watch out for this one, this might just be the second coming
"Please pray for jimmy"
How obvious do you want it?
I feel sorry for the guy too. It sounds like middle stages of schizophrenia, what with all the visual hallucinations, touch sensations, paranoia, etc. His "convictions" are likely going to keep him from seeking help too- at least, outside of a church. Who will probably just declare him possessed and make things even worse.
Whatever ideas we might come up with for helping this guy based on logic are going to be a total loss. He needs real professional help. With real medications, and perhaps some family oversight.
This is not stupidity. It's mental illness. And the dude needs help. Evolution is just a thing he's directing it at, like others do with aliens or government takeovers or whatever, and his religion? Listen to him. He's not talking bible quotes here, he's talking about being visited by demons and outside forces putting thoughts directly in to his mind.
Notice his first principle for proof of gods existence violates the first law of thermodynamics..
his problems are not merely with evolutionary Biology
I don't care for this post. The guy is sick and no danger to anyone.
http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/garrison.jpg
Possible alias?
@30 He is talking bible quotes.. he just has a special section on his site for it
@34 fair enough. I still stand by it, he's way off the deep end and religion/bible is just a crutch for what's really ailing him.
the shoes I have walked in--the years of aggravation while fighting off the cause of homosexuality--have given me a certain amount of sympathy for the homosexual
such "sympathy" is without value.
Creepy old loser, perhaps. But I really feel sorry for this guy. I wish he would crawl out of his self-inflicted, religion-fueled, fantasies-filled permanent nightmare, with the help of a good therapist. I really don't care a bit about this silly stuff he might write about evolution, or anything else.
argumentum ad Miriam-Webster? Are infertile couples not 'having sex'? Why are you interested in driving home this pointlessly discriminatory verbiage?
For some people, it's an act of love every bit as meaningful as a fertile heterosexual pairing. Again, you seem to be trivialising the notion of homosexuality, for no apparent reason.
So sad - he could devote his life to helping the poor and other sorts of volunteer and charity work, he could even adopt a sort of monastic existence and deny his sexual impulses for the rest of his life. But no, he has to "trash" evolution.
@#25 RijkswaanVijanD
... you've got it backwards. Reproduction is a by-product of sexual behavior. Sex does not mean "making a baby."
So is sex with a condom/on birth control pills only 1% sex? If I have sex with my wife while she's pregnant does that count? Is oral sex only oral sex if you make an effort for sperm and egg to get together?
This is really, really sad. I don't at all think we should be disparaging towards this person.
Like some people have said above, this guy is mentally ill and in denial about his sexuality. And it is our society that made him like this. If he had grown up in a society that was not so horribly judgmental, he might right now be a healthy stable person in a happy, loving gay relationship. Instead, he has evidently forced himself into loveless marriages, become a depressed alcoholic and gambling addict, and suffered a whole array of mental health problems. This isn't some personal failing on his part; it isn't his "fault". It's a consequence of systemic social problems. And rather than pointing and laughing at him, we should be talking about how we can change our society so that more people don't end up like this.
Oh trust me, it's not just some of us who will laugh at you.
@40
Yes it is, a by product with it's own functional qualities..
@40&41
The word sex is derived from sexual reproduction, which was the initial purpose of such acts of physical intimicy; the word sex does not do any right to the existing deeper social goals of these acts. Social bonding and recreational fun do:P
@45
Are you sure it's not short for sexual intercourse?
I vaguely see where you're coming from, but it's the same kind of arguement as saying "let homosexuals have civil unions not marriage" - it's belittling and demeaning to exclude anyone based on wordplay.
Plus your definition doesn't mesh with what dictionaries say if you really want to go down the pedantic line
sexual intercourse:-
"Sexual union between humans involving genital contact other than vaginal penetration by the penis."
And I think it is more likely that sexual reproduction derives from the word sex, which at first glance appears to stem from the 14th century as a word to describe collectively either males, or females - and homosexual appears, at least to me, to be a comingling not of homo and sex but of homo and sexual, specifically I'd guess the definition of sexual to use here would be "Implying or symbolizing erotic desires or activity" - so yes, homosexuals exist - they are people who have erotic desires for the same sex (homo)
Well Rij, if any of that is true, then the virgin Mary was no virgin. Even if it happened the way the Catholics say it did, then the Angel had sex with her by whispering in her ear.
It apparently doesn't matter a lick(hehe) to you that no genital contact was involved. All that matters is the result, eh?
Well it's a good thing that it's evolution that's messed up, not Grossman. Same with fundamentalism.
Seriously, how much of religion is about affirming one's inadequacies and denials? After the social club function, I think that is the main function of it, in America at least.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
@25
So does that mean my childless-by-choice sister and her husband aren't having sex? Or is it still sex if it's between a man and a woman, but not between two men or two women? Ok, it's not reproduction, but saying its not sex is just silly. By that definition, I've only had sex twice, once for each of my offspring.
Oh? And what invisible foam rubber hand told you that?
So we didn't have the word 'sex' until biologists described sexual reproduction? Then what was the Catholic church railing against for all those years before Leeuwenhoek and his microscopes?
"Hey, Honey? Feel like doing that thing tonight?"
"What thing?"
"You know...the thing that's fun. And can make babies."
"Oh. You mean sexual reproduction. Like what bacteria do, but different."
"Yeah. What was that term again? Sex-u-al-re-pro-duc-tion? Seems like a long name for a short act."
"I was meaning to talk to you about that. You know, we could engage in a little foreplay to ext—"
"I know! Let's call it 'sexrep' for short! [Opens window, leans out and shouts to a neighbour mowing his lawn] Hey, Bill! I'm gonna sexrep the hell out of my wife tonight!"
"What's 'sexrep'?":
"You know, it's that thing that's fun. And can make babies."
"Oh! It's called 'sexrep'? Seems like a long name for such a short act..."
Okay, just so I understand, RijkswaanVijanD thinks someone without children is a virgin? Forget saddlebacking, that's got to be the most creative way of getting around purity pledges I've ever seen.
I wonder...his dislike of evolution could actually be related to his homosexuality.
His homophobia and self-loathing is heavily dependent on his faith. So many people see evolution as destroying faith. If evolution is true, and if that means gods and the supernatural probably don't exist, then that means homosexuality IS natural and is okay (since "it's supernatural!" seems to be the gist of his objection). But that's EXACTLY what the devil wants him to think! And evolution's even sneakier in that it shows gay behavior happens among animals, apparently naturally and perhaps even adaptively! That, of course, is what the gay demons cavorting with animals are hoping he'll believe.
oh, okay i just noticed the tongue-out emoticon at the end of those posts. It appears as though Rij is just having a bit of pedantic POE fun with us.
Thanks PZ! :)
His page on impairing thinking ability is pretty incredible. He's put a LOT of work into that one, and the only thing that is in its favour is that it's just too bloody long for any teenager to give a crap about reading ;) Otherwise, I can imagine him making a few gullible young faithheads think that he has a point.
LOL, that's hilarious, are you sure this is not a Poe?
...I thought RijkswaanVijanD was taking the piss with his post #25...
...unfortunately he wasn't.
Reminds me of the crazy people that would wander into comedy clubs in the 90's during open mic night.
"the demons in my head will have their voices heard!!"
@ Westcoaster #51
twice?? You FLOOZY!!! :P
And you don't need to have sex to bare children. Mary was also a Virgin. :)
...holy issues batman..!!
blf wrote:
This caught my eye, too, since John Allen Paulos's most recent book is entitled: "Irreligion: A Mathematician Explains Why the Arguments for God Just Don't Add Up.
@51---
As part of my ongoing plan to make Newspeak an everyday language (Volapuk just doesn't seem to be working out...for no reason I can imagine)...I'll be adding "sexrep" to the Standard Newspeak vocabulary. It is wonderfully Newspeak-y.
And, yes. Oceania has *always* been at war with Eastasia. And with the evil, alien Esquimaux.
@58
Y'know, patton's been pretty good at finding people biting his routine's lately... might want to give credit where it's due.
Shala #5
Unfortunately it sounds like the help he's turning to is at the core of the problem. If he could divorce himself from the religious nonsense that preaches that homosexuality is evil and shameful, he might have a shot at happiness. But instead he turns to god and perpetuates the problem. Religion is an abusive captor, and faithheads get something like Stockholm Syndrome for it.
You left out the best part, how evolution is causing kids to kill themselves!
Seems like good ol' (gay) Herb has some followers at Landover Baptist. They heap all sorts of praise on the guy simply because he detests random things and makes up nonsense associations between them. Somehow they seem to accept the crazy, which may be due to themselves being a bit afflicted with it. The pictures of the posters are priceless:
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?p=409578
He actually has footnote references on those pages!
Another religious nutter keen to approximate the form, if not the substance, of the Academy.
Yeeesssss, some people have kind of a low threshold for hallucinations and delusions, and alcohol will lower it further.
Poor guy doesn't sound happy. But I think he'd need to re-arrange his entire belief structure to achieve any kind of peace, and that seems unlikely to happen.
Like a lot of people have said this just make me feel really sorry for the guy. Who knows how his life would have turned out if he was raised with a secular world view. He's clearly a very repressed gay man and it's quite obvious his beliefs have damaged him irreparably.
Ugh.
Aargh.
Choke a little.
Coughing fit accompanied by snot slinging and teary eyes.
Precautionary hovering above the porcelain altar, just in case I blow chow.
Several minutes spent prone and motionless.
Gradual resumption of verticality attended by perceiving a really poor sap. Poor sap. Lousy syrup.
Typing with one hand while covering a laugh with the other.
Dammit. What I have to go through for a laugh around this place!
Herb, if you keep on the way you're going you'll either self destruct or kill someone.
Please. Seek Help. Christian Jesus-flavored help if you must, but seek help.
what a poor, sad, fucked up, twisted little man.
I don't think we need look further for what the ills of religion can do than this - one man turning his own personal torment, alcohol abuse and divorce into a crusade championing the reason for the above.
I really feel bad for the guy.
"...rubber-like hand would then pat me.."
A rubber like hand?? Was he hallucinating about the hand of god wearing a condom?
Brownian @#51:
I think you should consider a career as a comedy writer. After the saga of Bob and Bobbette from Bobsville, and now this, I increasingly look forward to your finely-crafted snarky responses to every situation. :-)
The closet is death.
No, seriously, this is why the closet is such a killer and I've seen so many right-wing ideologues and close acquaintances do things like this to themselves, wrap themselves in active, desperate denials of their true selves until it warps them a little inside. The literal fear of being gay, having it apply to you, leads to so many negative desperate actions and displacing it on an other (demons or "recruitment") is a sadly common fear reaction to try and minimize the attraction).
Whatever sexual attractions, feelings anyone has are wholly natural and nothing to be ashamed of. And furthermore, to all those religions who see X sexuality as wrong and sex as dirty, and all the other shaming bullshit, I say this to you:
"You all lose."
By which, I mean, asexuals win out in the "not getting tempted" game by being without sexuality, so the other 99% of you? Just enjoy yourselves free from the insane requests of your asshole clergy and do right by yourself and your partners and be true to yourself and your desires.
And to Rijkswaan?
You're a goddamn idiot.
I have little respect for Websterism as a debating tactic as it's the laziest and most often inaccurate form of arguing a point and seems to get latched onto by people who want to be superficially "pedantic" at the expense of being actually accurate by what terms means.
And frankly, the exhaustive field of sex research has long rejected your hideously narrow idea of what "sex is", so I have no further respect for you, other than to tell you that you are wrong.
This approach to evangelism always baffles me. "Hi! I have a habit of making life-ruining choices. And now I've converted to Christianity!"
Homosex with invisible, supernatural beings... Some people have all the luck.
You DO know that Landover is satire, don't you?
Gaypaganunitarianagnostic
The attention of Pharyngula seems to have caused Herb Grossman to withdraw that page on homosexuality (68823.html "Encourages Homosexuality") from his website - in a way that Freethinker attention last year didn't.
NB It's currently still in Google's cache but will presumably, if not copied in its entirety to somewhere more permanent, otherwise soon be lost to posterity. This may or may not be a good thing!