Pharyngula

Posted by: Tulse | May 18, 2010 8:11 PM

PZ, you didn't include the part of the argument where raping a married woman or virgin is "theft". I thought that was particularly special.

Posted by: MikeMa | May 18, 2010 8:12 PM

Only a male version of the species could say this (I hope). What an ass. He can take his suffering fairy god and shove it.

There is no murder. Murder has a specific legal definition, which in the US for now, does not include abortion. Keep your twisted morality out of my law.

Posted by: tumorhead | May 18, 2010 8:17 PM

You can't see it, but I am facepalming as hard as I can.

I find this deplorable. Also, if this happened to me, being pregnant would make it so much harder to get over, since it'd be a constant reminder of the violation that's happened, utterly afraid of the future, the unpleasant biological consequences not helping any.

Uhg, what the hell.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 18, 2010 8:17 PM

But is rape really that bad?

As someone who has been raped, I can answer this: Yes, it is.

This is the kind of person you don't argue with…just walk away.

This is the kind of person I give a good, swift kick inna fork to then walk away. Crispy fried Christ, what is wrong with some people?

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | May 18, 2010 8:19 PM

oh, we have asked the Christian women. do you know what they answered? "The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion"

callous asshole.

Posted by: Ichthyic | May 18, 2010 8:21 PM

Would you murder your children after because they remind you of your ex

something tells me a whole bunch of people just started considering a new idea...

Posted by: naddyfive | May 18, 2010 8:22 PM

Yeah, I mean, getting forcibly penetrated is a little inconvenient...but being forced to endure 9 months of medical risk, severe discomfort, stretch marks, lost wages, possibly lost job, 24+ of excruciating labor, 18 years of struggle and sacrifice, difficulty finding a partner who wants to help raise your kids, plus a lifetime of responsibility? That's bliss. It's what every real woman wants.

FACE-DESK.

You'd think people who pretend to think fetuses are babies with rights just like an adult would be more aware of the risks involved in a high-stress pregnancy- say, one where the mother has PTSD because she's just been traumatized by a psychopath. There've been all sorts of studies that show the worst thing you can do for a fetus epigenetically is to gestate through severe stress, especially PTSD. It raises fetal cortisol levels, which continues through birth and for years to come. Elevated cortisol is associated with high risk for anxiety disorders later on.

Just more proof that it's not about the fetus at all. It's about the idea that men own and can take control of the means of human reproduction with impugnity.

Posted by: People's Front of Judea | May 18, 2010 8:24 PM

"I'm not belittling it but think about it, no amount of suffering from rape is as great as the suffering our Lord suffered on the cross for our sins."

Lemmie see, couple of hours nailed to a tree followed by "death", and then up and about a couple of days latter good as new? Yep that tops anything I can think of!

One day of suffering then eternal life vs one little attack by a relative or priest and a lifetime of suffering...nope no contest here.

So nice to see that you can still have logic hunted down and killed when ever required.

Posted by: a_ray_in_dilbert_space, OM, A little FUCKING ray of sunshine | May 18, 2010 8:27 PM

Floyd Rubber. Paging Floyd Rubber. I think we might have a little job for you...

Posted by: Deanna | May 18, 2010 8:29 PM

#3 Hopefully, he'll commit a criminal act, go to prison, and experience rape firsthand.

Honestly, I'm not sure that'll even change his mind about women being raped considering how he doesn't think they're are human. I mean according to that guy, anything that happens to women is inconsequential (you know, unless they're denying him something.)

Fuck, this is disgusting and terrifying. I can't believe there's people like this out there.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 18, 2010 8:29 PM

It’s just not logical, like stealing your own car or pocking your own pocket.

There's that good, moral, christian reasoning - it's not possible to do evil things to a woman, she's just chattel, after all.

*spits*

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmqD_mcUIrSfOTlK3iGVsnEDcZmI43srbI | May 18, 2010 8:30 PM

So. I've been having these "discussions" with certain people of the theist type about morality and whether or not any moral imperative can be considered objective. And just when I'm about to agree that "don't rape" is one moral imperative I can accept that is objective, along comes this moron. Who tosses the whole "moral argument for god" right into the shitter without even realizing it.
Great job, fella. I'm sure your daughters will be proud of you. Oh wait, you don't have daughters? Wife? Girlfriend? Human companion? Human acquaintance? Yeah. Thought not.

Posted by: FossilFishy | May 18, 2010 8:32 PM

…just walk away.

Not quite PZ. You left out the part where you puts down the blunt object you snatched up because killing the fucker will make you a hypocrite.

Posted by: Ichthyic | May 18, 2010 8:33 PM

@10, from the link:

"We saw a woman recently who after four attempts and many hours of counseling both at the hospital and our clinic, finally, calmly and uneventfully, had her abortion. Four months later, she called me on Christmas Eve to tell me that she was not and never was pro-choice and that we failed to recognize that she was clinically depressed at the time of her abortion. The purpose of her call was to chastise me for not sending her off to the psych unit instead of the procedure room." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

well, hard to argue with that.

Posted by: S.C. Kavassalis | May 18, 2010 8:35 PM

Wow, that is nauseatingly ignorant. I actually am at a loss for words... Yet again, our species disappoints the hell out of me.

Posted by: Ben Goren | May 18, 2010 8:38 PM

The motherfucking sonofabitch who wrote that is evil. Pure, unadulterated evil. He needs to be excluded from society; he’s simply uncivilized.

One thing I’ve never gotten and still don’t get is how Christers seem to think that what the Jesus character endured is somehow vastly worse than anything else anybody else has ever experienced.

Um…seriously? According to the story, it was probably the “easiest” crucifixion in the entire history of humanity. He only lasted, what, a few hours? Most people were still alive days later.

And let’s not forget that the dude was a SuperZombie who didn’t actually die; his reanimation was just a couple days later.

Really, Jesus didn’t suffer and die at all; he had a bad morning and slept it off.

I can’t imagine what it must be like to be either raped or crucified, but I’d pick Jesus-style crucifixion over rape in a heartbeat.

Cheers,

b&

--
EAC Memographer
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
``All but God can prove this sentence true.''

Posted by: KillJoy | May 18, 2010 8:39 PM

D.N.

I AM gay. And I dont want to RAPE him. I might pay someone to violate him with a large, unlubricated sex toy. But rape him myself? Not with a stolen cock.

KJ

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus | May 18, 2010 8:41 PM

My Grampa said that I should shoot people like that in the back of the neck!

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | May 18, 2010 8:43 PM

So when someone rapes and impregnates this persons daughter, I'm sure he/she will just "get over it".

It really gets to them if you say what would you do if it was your wife who was pregnant with the product of rape. You can watch as they get the Blue Screen of Death!

Posted by: raven | May 18, 2010 8:45 PM

Yeah, I mean, getting forcibly penetrated is a little inconvenient...but being forced to endure 9 months of medical risk, severe discomfort, stretch marks, lost wages, possibly lost job, 24+ of excruciating labor, 18 years of struggle and sacrifice, difficulty finding a partner who wants to help raise your kids, plus a lifetime of responsibility? That's bliss. It's what every real woman wants.

Sorry but this isn't quite right.

You left out the social disgrace, opprobium, and criticism for being yet again...another unwed mother. Much of which would come from your good xian family, friends, and relatives. A slut.

As xians always remind us, it is the woman's fault for getting raped anyway. If she didn't have a vagina and could bench press 250 pounds, it wouldn't have happened.

What if the rapist had an STD? What if he was HIV+?

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | May 18, 2010 8:54 PM

D.N.

I want to PERSONALLY rape this asshole right fucking now. And im not even gay.

What does being gay have to do with your violent fantasies?

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | May 18, 2010 8:55 PM

Aren't these the same people who then shun a girl who has been raped because she is "unclean" and "used"? And the ones who call her a irredeemable slut if she didn't fight back hard enough to risk death rather than being raped? And yet it's "no big deal"??? The cognitive dissonance is sickening.

This is the kind of person you don't argue with…just walk away.

I am not a violent person, but I would be sorely tempted to spit on him first.

Posted by: Jenn | May 18, 2010 8:56 PM

I'm atheist and try to think rationally, but this comment makes a lot of sense to me.

If you are operating under the premise that abortion is murder, and that "Jesus is Lord", then most everything else that was said follows logically.

I think he makes a good point that a painful divorce can be worse than rape.

But maybe that's just me? How is what he says creepy when operating under his assumptions?

Posted by: D.N. | May 18, 2010 9:00 PM

Re 42
He doesnt know what its like to be raped. And being gay has nothing to do with it. Dont know why i threw that gem in there, just angry thats all.

Posted by: Christie Wilcox | May 18, 2010 9:03 PM

"I think any woman would easily tell you that a painful divorce is worse than rape"

UM... NO. At least not this woman - I'd much rather get divorced than raped. I'd rather get divorced ten times than raped once. I don't know a single woman who would prefer otherwise!

Posted by: Peter H | May 18, 2010 9:07 PM

It's sickos like that that give deranged a bad name.

Posted by: Ichthyic | May 18, 2010 9:10 PM

And PZ is wrong. No matter how creepy you think xians can be, they can always be creepier. There is no bottom to how low their creepiness can go.

did you miss the "yet" part?

I think his bases are covered.

Posted by: raven | May 18, 2010 9:12 PM

Jenn:

I'm atheist and try to think rationally, but this comment makes a lot of sense to me.

I don't believe you. You are either a troll or most likely a male fundie xian kook. There is a multi-ID troll who changes IDs every few hours and you are most likely the one from the Donohue thread.

If you are operating under the premise that abortion is murder, and that "Jesus is Lord", then most everything else that was said follows logically.

I think he makes a good point that a painful divorce can be worse than rape.

The divorce rate in the USA is 50% of all marriages. Everyone has seen lots and lots. Most are no big deal. Most are done because the two people are better off separate than together. While a few can be painful, most are in the class of minor or major gifts from the gods. Undoing a mistake, getting rid of a psycho or loser, and getting on with life. To maybe even meeting someone else who makes you far happier.

Jenn the fake atheist, fake woman but real Troll:

But maybe that's just me? How is what he says creepy when operating under his assumptions?

It is creepy because of his assumptions. Jeffrey Dahmer assumed people were food. He killed and ate them. Under his assumptions, this was perfectly normal. Being consistent with your assumptions says exactly zero about whether you are moral, good or evil.

Trolls like you aren't quite in the misogynistic bigot's class yet. Try another ID and see if you can come up with something even dumber and more vicious.

Posted by: Christie Wilcox | May 18, 2010 9:15 PM

And another thing:

"It's a horrible experience but you get over it with time."

I know women who have gone through terrible, painful divorces, and ones that have been raped. Let me tell you - the divorcees are able to "get over" their "horrible experience" far more easily. Most of the women I know who have been raped have never gotten over it, and continue to have issues trusting men, especially sexually, even decades after. Most of the divorcees, on the other hand, are happily dating if not remarried. To even imply that divorce is somehow worse than rape is not only ignorant but revolting.

Posted by: raven | May 18, 2010 9:17 PM

Jenn: I'm atheist and try to think rationally, but this comment makes a lot of sense to me.

raven:
I don't believe you. You are either a troll or most likely a male fundie xian kook. There is a multi-ID troll who changes IDs every few hours and you are most likely the one from the Donohue thread.

Damn, the blockquote failed.

It isn't that important. The Jenn troll is almost certainly neither a female, an atheist, or anything but a Troll trolling under multiple IDs. Got to wonder about someone who gets their kicks by trying to sound evil and crazy on a blog.

Posted by: deriamis | May 18, 2010 9:19 PM

I think he makes a good point that a painful divorce can be worse than rape.

Posted by: naddyfive | May 18, 2010 9:20 PM

"To even imply that divorce is somehow worse than rape is not only ignorant but revolting."

To these guys, all women are pathetic codependents who'd rather get violently brutalized by a man than legally separated from one. A woman will put up with anything, anything just for a chance to submit to a man.

Really, thinking about women this way is what gets these guys off.

Dollars to donuts this guy watches a constant stream of rape-sim pr0n.

Posted by: Haley | May 18, 2010 9:28 PM

I'm trying to imagine what my response would be if someone said this to my face. I think it involves creative cursing and yelling, and getting in his personal space as I verbally rip his head off. (I don't think I could purposely physically harm someone. I never have- not even my little sister.)

I hate him and his beliefs with a burning passion. Even so, I could never wish rape on anyone. Not even a monster like this.

Posted by: Pikemann Urge | May 18, 2010 9:33 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong: the RCC does not teach that abortion is murder. It is interesting to note, in the light of that fact, that Mother Teresa preached the 'abortion is murder' sermon.

Posted by: naddyfive | May 18, 2010 9:34 PM

I realize that most people are raped by people they know. The overwhelming majority of victims are raped by friends, relatives, boyfriends, etc. To the point where I'm loathe to even mention stranger rape in this discussion.

But since acquaintance rape or marital rape wouldn't even count as a crime in the mind of these types, I think it might help to get them started thinking about just how violent a violation rape is by using the most extreme examples of coercion.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | May 18, 2010 9:35 PM

When Christians can explain to our satisfaction why an all-powerful god (as theirs is supposed to be) chooses to allows rape to occur when he could easily prevent it, then can they weigh in on a discussion involving it.

Until then they should shut the fuck up.

Posted by: deriamis | May 18, 2010 9:43 PM

Unfortunately, stranger rape isn't rare. Mine (see # 57) was stranger rape.

Posted by: Doktor Jerusalem | May 18, 2010 9:45 PM

The original offender says "a painful divorce is worse than rape."

That pretty much undermines your entire position right there, snookums.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmRjbXoDgCq4N0aNWT2Z2RtB4Mm9CbDVys | May 18, 2010 9:47 PM

Mother Teresa would be proud. Suffering is good for you, don't ya know. Don't worry, God will make it up to you later.......

This is why many Christians oppose euthanasia of terminally ill people too. Suffering is a necessary thing from God....

It's only we immoral atheists who think suffering is bad and should be minimized whenever possible.

Posted by: boboniboni | May 18, 2010 9:52 PM

Thanks for making my day worse. This makes me lucid to the truth, but this also makes me puke. I'm speechless.

These people are worse than psychopaths like Jeffrey Dahmer, who drilled other's people brain to make them sexual zombie slaves.

They are simply mentally wired to have 0% empathy or knowledge of how violence affects people, specially rape.

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | May 18, 2010 9:55 PM

Amber,

It's hard to understand how someone can be so dismissive of your experience. One thing I can see being a problem with people like this ever getting the trauma of rape is that anyone they know who is raped certainly isn't going to confide in such a jerk. Without that, they can live in their bubble of denial.

If I know someone well enough and they say to me "Rape can't be that common. I don't know anyone who was raped," I look them straight in the eyes and say "Yes, you do." It usually takes a few seconds for the person to get what you're saying, but it does have the tendency to make them think. Problem is, the number of people I feel comfortable enough with to make such a confession to is very small.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | May 18, 2010 10:05 PM

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Fuckers.

Posted by: **sam** | May 18, 2010 10:13 PM

The only redeeming thing about this post is how many people have reacted the way they have.

So, let's weigh it up...

Escaping the clammy grip of a christian patriarchal institution which constructs women as chattel, possession, slave...

versus

Being eighteen, fresh in the world, having some man put something in your drink and then take you home, followed by his spending the night putting his penis and hands into you while you are too mashed by the rohypnol to even move, never mind positively object. Then not reporting it, because everyone knows that it's a drop in the ocean, you can't remember it well enough to identify anyone and no one's going to believe you anyway. You don't want to repeat the violation by exposing yourself to a doctor who sees so many of these cases that yours seems only mild to them (which it was, compared with others' experiences - which means you minimise it to yourself as well - oh well, at least there was no knife - at least he didn't kill me - at least I didn't know him so I don't have to see him again) and this adds to the shame and stress of the experience by extending it materially into the aftermath.
And that's just the case where it was reasonably clear-cut. Not including all the times when you've been coerced by patriarchal expectation and entitlement, guilted and manipulated into not saying no, even though you weren't exactly saying yes.
Ten years on, the first (reasonably) detailed account you give of it is an anonymous comment on a blog. And you still can't get near anyone without it feeling rapey.

Yeah. I can totes see how divorce is worse than rape.

What a fucking cock. There are no words. I'm going away now to do some more repressing and recluding.

Posted by: sharky | May 18, 2010 10:23 PM

You know, if he really believed that "there's no such thing as a raped spouse" argument, he would think it would be completely okay for a wife to murder her husband. After all, once they're married they're "one flesh." So at worst it's suicide... but the wife us clearly alive, so she can't be charged with suicide! That would be silly, like charging someone for picking their own pocket!

That whole thing isn't a line of reasoning, and it can't be something he actually uses day to day. It strikes me as a sort of masturbatory thought experiment.

(If I weren't so sure of that, I'd wonder why he was so certain Christian women could endure great suffering...)

Posted by: raven | May 18, 2010 10:30 PM

Xian death cult kook:

I'm not belittling it but think about it, no amount of suffering from rape is as great as the suffering our Lord suffered on the cross for our sins.

False equivalency.

Jesus volunteered for the cross. It was necessary to save humanity (from what, his father's screwups?) and start his religion. Jesus is god, god can do anything. The guy who can raise the dead back to life and heal the sick could have turned all those Pharisees and Romans into frogs with one "poof". He also knew it was just temporary and he would come back to life, rule in heaven, and get his revenge. That is what hell is for and I'm sure his tormentors are there for all eternity.

And why does someone elses suffering such as jesus or John Doe for that matter, excuse and make rape, torture, starvation, beatings and so on OK. It doesn't have anything to do with it.

Posted by: Bomias | May 18, 2010 10:32 PM

What a cowardly and worthless little piece of shit.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 18, 2010 10:41 PM

**Sam**:

Ten years on, the first (reasonably) detailed account you give of it is an anonymous comment on a blog.

Sam, that's just one more facet of all the horrors rape victims suffer. You survived, that matters. Come on over to the endless thread and talk about all kinds of stuff, no repression needed.

Posted by: sandiseattle | May 18, 2010 10:42 PM

Yep gotta agree, this guy doesn't understand how devestating rape can be. Yes one does "get over it" after a fashion, but not with out lots of help and in most cases lots of love.

Posted by: Cath the Canberra Cook | May 18, 2010 10:47 PM

*barf*
It's been some time since I last suggested fucking someone sideways with a rusty sharp implement, but this is clearly a case that calls for it.

I have to admit, though, I would take rape over crucifixion. Or indeed over any other form of protracted and painful death. That's unless it was a jebus style crucifiction (note spelling difference) - of unusually short duration, and ending with a magical recovery.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 18, 2010 10:50 PM

Sam, you aren't derailing anything. Quite a few of us have discussed our personal experiences being raped.

Posted by: Jenn | May 18, 2010 10:53 PM

You guys should meet Roissy.

Cuckoldry Vs Butt Rape.

OK, I'm convinced from the comments, for all practical purposes and in almost all situations, divorce will never be on par with rape.

But it's easy to ignore the details of the suffering that might or might not be involved...

And I'll admit, it's somewhat amusing to be called a troll when I'm probably more of a pro-science, liberal, militant atheist than most of you retards.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | May 18, 2010 10:56 PM

I'm not belittling it

Yes you are.

but think about it, no amount of suffering from rape is as great as the suffering our Lord suffered on the cross for our sins.

Correct. It will never be the same because human suffering is real.

Posted by: Cath the Canberra Cook | May 18, 2010 10:57 PM

Sending cautious *hugs* to **sam**, Caine, deriamis, and the others who haven't mentioned thier personal experiences. If you wanna castrate the fucker, I'll help hold him down.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | May 18, 2010 11:03 PM

Jenn:

...than most of you retards.

Trust me, asshole, keep up with language like that and you're sure to make tons o' friends here!

If you're such a good little liberal militant atheist, then why don't you stop and think about the shit you're spewing?

Posted by: SlantedScience | May 18, 2010 11:05 PM

I will ignore the rape/abortion connection which is just religious idiocy.

I'm going after the Pharyngula article which said that this guy was "exaggerating abortion into murder".

Yet again: I am an atheist. But, yet again, I have to ask all of you: how is abortion different to snipping the head off a newborn baby? When does a zygote (which can be killed by the morning-after pill; a great invention) become a human whose pre-contemplated killing should be the source of a murder charge?

I do not know.

But I know that what 20 years ago was considered an unsavable fetus has now become a perfectly viable baby.

I ask you all to place yourselves in the room with this baby, born at 22 weeks (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-437236/Born-just-22-weeks--Amilla-allowed-home.html), and - seriously - consider hacking sat it with a pair of scissors.

Go on: cut off its hand, then its, left leg, then some of its belly.

Keep going, until you've chopped the baby into bits.

Please, serious answers only.

Posted by: raven | May 18, 2010 11:07 PM

Jenn the fake atheist, fake woman, and not very convincing troll:

And I'll admit, it's somewhat amusing to be called a troll when I'm probably more of a pro-science, liberal, militant atheist than most of you retards.

You are a troll and not a very competent one.

Change IDs, try again, and think real seriously about going back to Troll school.

Didn't click on the link and won't, troll links can end up with operating system failure.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 18, 2010 11:07 PM

naddyfive:

Nowhere near "rare" enough... it's only relatively rare, compared to acquaintance rape... sorry if I didn't word that comment well.

You're fine. One of the problems, when it comes to public perception of stranger rape, is that many of them end up in murder. So people hear about a murder case, not a rape case.

Cath, thank you for the hug. *hugs back*

Posted by: monado | May 18, 2010 11:10 PM

I saw a TV show once, fictional, about a hard-bitten cop who thought rape was no big deal... until it happened to him.

Two nights ago I listened to a pair of hockey players talk about the devastation and self-destructive behavior in their lives from years of sexual abuse by coach Graham James.

And then there was the fellow interviewed on the radio, real, who talked about going to rape a woman. She began to talk to him about not doing it and "She began making sense so I hit her a few times with a hammer."

I was gobsmacked when a male friend said that having his apartment robbed was like being raped. Man, you were about four layers from rape: possessions, car-jacking, clothes/wallet, personal injury, rape.

Jesus, does this ghoul need to meet someone in a dark alley.

Posted by: deriamis | May 18, 2010 11:11 PM

I'm just babbling now. I'm just so stunned. And hurt.

@Cath: Nah, I'd rather just wait for the realization he has on his deathbed that there is no God and no afterlife right before his life winks out of existence. No need to torture him - the fact that his life is a lie is enough for me.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 18, 2010 11:13 PM

ODS:

So, the pregnant woman means nothing to you?

Please, please, just ignore SStroll. I'm begging here.

Posted by: SlantedScience | May 18, 2010 11:13 PM

ODS@ #115: she means everything. What percentage of abortions are conducted to save the mother's life?

Posted by: SlantedScience | May 18, 2010 11:16 PM

@CFDM #120: sorry, but this is an open forum. Your whinings about past bad-beats won't get you too far. Good, logical arguments are what's needed.

Keep trying.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | May 18, 2010 11:18 PM

You're right, Caine. I'm done with that jerkwad.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 18, 2010 11:21 PM

ODS, I love you. :D

Posted by: Ichthyic | May 18, 2010 11:24 PM

Good, logical arguments are what's needed.

...says the dorkwad most likely to be the first tossed out in the next round of "survivor pharyngula"

say, what happened to that, anyway?

anyone hear if PZ truly intends to have another round, or not?

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | May 18, 2010 11:25 PM

I have to ask all of you: how is abortion different to snipping the head off a newborn baby?

When does a zygote become a human whose pre-contemplated killing should be the source of a murder charge?

But I know that what 20 years ago was considered an unsavable fetus has now become a perfectly viable baby.

Posted by: alysonmiers | May 18, 2010 11:26 PM

**sam**'s comments are perfectly appropriate for the discussion. For an example of thread-derailment, see SlantedScience's comments.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 18, 2010 11:27 PM

Ichthyic:

anyone hear if PZ truly intends to have another round, or not?

PZ said he could be talked into housecleaning, but most people were against another round of survivor several endless thread incarnations back. Not enough steady, quality type trolls. I'd be happy for SS the idiot the tossed though.

Posted by: raven | May 18, 2010 11:27 PM

Caine, Fleur du mal:

ODS:

So, the pregnant woman means nothing to you?
Please, please, just ignore SStroll. I'm begging here.

PAY ATTENTION!!! Caine is right. SStroll is trying to derail the thread again with his nutcase lies and control freak behavior.

Don't feed the troll.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | May 18, 2010 11:30 PM

I hope that if he's pissed in the gene pool that his kids get away from him pronto. Assuming that this is a guy, I don't think he should be trusted with a penis, and I'm having to wonder if my opposition to prison rape might not have to make an exception.

The only thing I agree with him on is that rape is theft. It's theft of bodily integrity, theft of the opportunity for trauma-free sexual relationships, theft of the ability to experience pleasure without feeling violated or dirty, theft of the ability to feel safe in one's home, car, workplace, skin. Some studies have found that it has even has educational and economic consequences for survivors, so rape can even be seen as a theft of one's future earnings and education. It's also theft from one's present or future intimate partners and children. Even apart from the cortisol disregulation mentioned above, PTSD makes attachment to and physical closeness with one's children more problematic and often leads to shame, guilt, and anger in one's intimate partner for wanting to do things that provoke flashbacks.

For everyone who's posted about their experiences, I hope you're getting help - there's a lot out there. It's been a long hard slog, but I actually I love my life now. Despite (or because of) not being a theist, I no longer play the intellectual games of asking how my life would have been different or what I should do to eradicate these experiences from my psyche.

Wouldn't it be great if there was a compassionate Jesus to appear and thunk this guy over the head at some point?

Posted by: paulmurray | May 18, 2010 11:31 PM

I'd be unsurprised to find that this person is quite young - a 15yo with little idea of how the world actually works, so he tries to reason from principle. I'd also guess that he's never been seriously assaulted or made someone's victim.

Cut the kid a break, I say, and gently explain to him that his ideas are deficient and wrong.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | May 18, 2010 11:32 PM

How ludicrous.

Posted by: deriamis | May 18, 2010 11:33 PM

A male friend of mine was gang raped when he was in his late teens. Rape is rape and it is a horrible, traumatic experience. You do whatever the hell you have to in order to survive.

It's not so much that someone might think divorce is worse than rape. I can accept that someone might think divorce is worse than rape, however much I might disagree with it. What gets me here is that some asshole who has very likely experienced neither thinks he has something to say about it.

Posted by: Steven Dunlap | May 18, 2010 11:33 PM

ODS@ #115: she means everything. What percentage of abortions are conducted to save the mother's life?

Then shortly thereafter:

But you and I know that there are thousands of babies killed each year because Drs sign them off as maternal-lethal.

Riiiight. Let's see if I have this clearly: first you demand evidence but then you make an evidence-free assertion which would invalidate the evidence you at first demanded? The circular logic is making me a bit dizzy. Could you spin the other way around next time?

Posted by: Ichthyic | May 18, 2010 11:34 PM

Assuming that this is a guy

that's a good point.

sad to contemplate, but not impossible.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 18, 2010 11:36 PM

paulmurray:

Cut the kid a break

No.

Posted by: SlantedScience | May 18, 2010 11:38 PM

@deriamis, #133: you don't see my point, which is probably my fault.

I support the morning after pill because it kills imaginary babies at the few-cell stages.

I abhor elective abortions at 22 weeks and later because they kill real babies which could survive ex utero.

If in the future we develop the tech to take a zygote through to "birth" in vitro, I will still be in favor of the morning-after pill. I don't believe in souls or similar, so I think that it's okay to kill something with just a few cells, none of which have yet differentiated into neurons.

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | May 18, 2010 11:42 PM

Janet Holmes,

Really everyone is anti-abortion, no-one thinks it's a good thing, but just a lesser evil. Contraception is obviously preferable where possible but if you need an abortion then you should have a safe one.

I think availability of abortion is a good thing, and I don't think the procedure itself is bad. There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting an abortion for any reason up to and including "I just don't like the way condoms feel." Fetuses are not people. Even if we had the technology to remove the fetus from the woman and grow it in an incubator, all without hurting the woman at all, I would still support abortion access because not all women want to have their biological child out there being raised by others even if they don't want to raise a child themselves. Again, fetuses aren't people. I have more ethical qualms about eating a steak than I do about abortion.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 18, 2010 11:43 PM

deriamis:

My way was to gain control of him psychologically. It's just not "manly" to a lot of straight men not to attempt to beat a guy down, though, even if you would likely be seriously hurt or killed in the process. Whatever damage rape might have done to my life, at least I am alive to experience it.

Right. That's a tactic you have to be able to take advantage of if you think it will work. I ended up doing things during my rape I considered to be debasing (and continued to think that way for a long time) because I felt very strongly those things would help me get out of the situation still breathing.

It took me a long time to learn and believe that it does take strength of character and intelligence to keep a grip on yourself while you're being dragged into your own private horror show and doing what you have to do. You're to be commended, Deriamis. You got out of it, you're still here and breathing. You're alive.

Posted by: Cerberus, unnatural product of en-OMnomnom-ification | May 18, 2010 11:44 PM

And adding to the personal stories on rape, I mentioned on an earlier thread how my partner was raped twice by two separate romantic partners.

It has taken almost 5 fucking years to just begin clearing up some of the automatic physical responses, intense psychosexual hangups, and general anxiety of those events enough that she was only recently able to have a penetrative sex act with a penis. Completely free? I have no idea when if ever that might be and this is someone luckier than most and who is remarkably healed from the event thanks to some intense loving support by me for a number of years, multiple stints in therapy, and some phenomenal work by her current boyfriend for the last year.

Hell, I was most minor of the minor assaulted (J-train style public groping) about 2 years ago and I still involuntarily flinch a little when someone's thigh touches me on the bus.

The removal of agency, of humanity, and autonomy that comes with rape carries some of the most potent scars there are. It is no surprise that someone who has likely perpetrated these acts and certainly seeks to perpetrate similar acts through the power of the state would seek to minimize them, but that's only because he has lost his humanity due to his intense hatred of women.

Posted by: Pikemann Urge | May 18, 2010 11:46 PM

Raven #138, I hear you. Shame, because such questions are worthy of philosophical contemplation when posed with clarity and positive motivation.

Posted by: MrFire | May 18, 2010 11:46 PM

It's "artificial" to ask whether you have the moral balls to do what you ask others to do?

I have no surgeon's license, no training, no exposure to the extremely morally messy world of medicine. This is the prior experience required before peforming your thought experiment. Without it, you are an idiot making a false equivalence between me and a surgeon.

The fact that I and many other commenters do not meet these conditions is your fault, not ours.

It's "artificial" to ask that you would be prepared to clean public toilets if noone else would?

It's "artificial" to ask that you would be prepared to kill a cow if noone else would?

It's "artificial" to ask that you would be prepared to cut a baby into pieces if noone else would?

As with the first answer.

Even your attempts at rhetoric are laughable and pitiful.

Posted by: deriamis | May 18, 2010 11:47 PM

I'd like to clarify my position: if the mother's life is at risk, then it takes precedence over the fetus.

Beside which, if you are going to assert that abortion in cases that do not save the life of the mother is wrong, you also have to evaluate the cost to the family, the child, and society as a whole if the child is born. As I posted earlier, many families cannot afford to support a child, regardless of whether the mother was raped. If abortion is always wrong, then what happens when the child is raised in a family that struggles to get by or if it is put up for adoption? You seem to suggest that quality of life is not as important as life itself, contrary to the phenomenon of suicide.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | May 18, 2010 11:50 PM

Slanted Science's name is 50% accurate

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | May 18, 2010 11:53 PM

You can handle that kinda shit right? I mean, it is the internet... and even so, you've never been called retarded? For an atheist, perhaps you need tougher skin... but since you feel slighted, I apologize for calling you a retard.

OMG, you mean this is that internet thing all of my friends are talking about? I had no clue! I thought I was sitting in front of a typewriter!

You can insult me all that you like, fucker, especially when it makes you look like an idiot. Do me a favor and actually read (for comprehension, now!) my original response to you, then explain to me why you think 1) I'm not smart enough to know when I'm being insulted and 2) I'm a newbie who's feelings are just so fragile.

Oh yes, the barely literate trolls are my favorite trolls. I'm guessing you didn't do so well in them readin' and book larnin' classes, didja?

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | May 18, 2010 11:53 PM

PZ, can we please invoke the banhammer for SlantedScience? Should we start an internet petition?

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 18, 2010 11:57 PM

Mattir:

PZ, can we please invoke the banhammer for SlantedScience? Should we start an internet petition?

SStroll has committed a bannable offense. Yet. If the moron keeps derailing threads, maybe.

Would everyone stop giving idiotSStroll what it wants, which is attention? Please.

Posted by: alysonmiers | May 18, 2010 11:58 PM

A fetus is not a baby very much the way a toddler is not a teenager. Simply because a toddler will *probably* grow into a teenager eventually, we don't call xyr a pre-developed teenager, and we don't treat xyr like a teenager, either. We call the child a toddler and treat xyr as such.

If a fetus is entitled to the same protections as a newborn baby (which it isn't, but that argument is elsewhere), then it is entitled as the fetus it is now, not the baby it could later become. Why, then, do we insist on talking about fetuses as "unborn babies" or "pre-born children"? No one else is labelled by their potential. I have a better chance of becoming a 70-year-old woman someday than the average embryo has of becoming a healthy newborn, but nobody calls me a "pre-aged senior citizen." Only the fetus gets the linguistic special treatment of being labelled by what it could later become. At all other stages of life, we are what we are now.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | May 19, 2010 12:00 AM

Please register your disgust at #163's comments below...

Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom | May 19, 2010 12:01 AM

But you and I know that there are thousands of babies killed each year because Drs sign them off as maternal-lethal.

You wanna know the difference between killing a newborn? In as few words as possible:
The newborn is no longer hijacking the woman's body and health, and now that it's already delivered, is unlikely (I'm relatively s ure) to cause further complications.

It's our bodies. Not yours. If you want to put the baby into neonatal of some sort, knock yourself the fuck out, but remember that if you have no intention of raising the child, he's going to the fucked up adoption system in the US, and woe betide him if he's not male, blonde, or white.

Posted by: Garrett | May 19, 2010 12:03 AM

My feelings of hopelessness seem to grow each day (perhaps I shouldn't visit sites like this one or consume any media whatsoever). It's unlikely that the person who made those creepy remarks is going to change. I hope that compassionate, empathetic, rational thinkers outnumber the likes of him, but do we?

I don't want to fall victim to divide and conquer, but it can be difficult for me to envision uniting with the moderate-liberal, compassionate religious folks. I see them as enablers who give [insert any "holy book"] and religious doctrine undue legitimacy. On the other hand, what choice do compassionate atheists have?

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | May 19, 2010 12:08 AM

SS is a vicious troll, but yes, I can do many things if no one else is available to do them. I've killed and butchered animals for food. I've cleaned public toilets. Given that I've done these things, I'm willing to say that if there were no one available to perform abortions, I'd be willing to obtain the training to do them. Part of being a grownup is realizing that life can be unpleasant and it's not fair to ask other people to do all the unpleasant bits.

So SS, are you cleaning pubic toilets and butchering animals on a regular basis?

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 19, 2010 12:10 AM

Garrett:

I hope that compassionate, empathetic, rational thinkers outnumber the likes of him, but do we?

I think we do. There's a great deal of social pressure these days against such views (expressed in the post by the "christian" person.) There are people who do think that way, unfortunately, but it is getting less acceptable all the time. We have to keep our voices loud and make sure we're heard.

I don't want to fall victim to divide and conquer, but it can be difficult for me to envision uniting with the moderate-liberal, compassionate religious folks. I see them as enablers who give [insert any "holy book"] and religious doctrine undue legitimacy. On the other hand, what choice do compassionate atheists have?

Many moderate christians do enable this type of thinking. It's important to make this point when you can, a thoughtful person will give it due consideration. I don't think we do have to join up with religious people. It's easier if you think in terms of individuals, rather than great groups of people. Talk, be active, plant seeds of thought where and when you can.

Posted by: Samantha | May 19, 2010 12:12 AM

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in many locations (including some states) aren't late term abortions (i.e. after the 24 week limit SS has given) banned except in the very cases he allows for? I feel lucky in that Canada has no restrictions, but it is one of the very rare few in that case.

As for the possibility that rape is less painful than divorce: I can't speak to how painful divorce is but I know two sisters, one of whom was raped by a man and the other who went through a very painful divorce from him (including custody battles, living literally in fear of him for years and him raping their daughters). Judging by that, rape is still far more painful in terms of long-term effects.

From my own experience, date-rape is worse than anything else I've experienced in a relationship. I'm in a relatively healthy relationship now, but I still sometimes start to panic even though I know that my current boyfriend wouldn't even think about having sex with me without me being all for it.

Humorously enough, considering the bile of the cretin the thread was originally written about and as adeptly summarized by Caine in 83, the standard trope that it was my fault for "being out at night by myself and not under the watchful eye of a "good, christian man"." wouldn't even fit, as I was raped by the epitome of a good Catholic man (at least by standard definition of the Church).

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 19, 2010 12:14 AM

deriamis:

If you are in any way embarrassed by stupidity, I invite you to avert your eyes right about now.

I'm not embarrassed, I'm annoyed. IdiotSStroll has used the same exact "arguments" to derail at least four threads now. This was a good thread. If people want to argue with the idiot, here's a suggestion: SStroll has a blog with no commenters. He can move his stupid "arguments" there and we don't have the same old derail.

At any rate, Raven was probably right and it's too fucking late for this thread.

Posted by: bastion of sass | May 19, 2010 12:22 AM

I think any woman would easily tell you that a painful divorce is worse than rape

Well, sure, because in the case of divorce, a woman is losing an entire man, and but in the case in rape, the man is giving some of his precious sperm (every sperm is holy, praise God!) to a woman. Makes sense in a sick, psychopathic Christian way.

Posted by: Haley | May 19, 2010 12:24 AM

Now that the trolls have hopefully gone to bed for the night, let's get back to the topic at hand.

**sam**, Caine, and deriamis, I greatly admire your bravery to share your stories. They are really important.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | May 19, 2010 12:25 AM

@ Caine

I wasn't sure if SS had committed a bannable offense, I was just proposing that we launch a planet-wide internet petition to encourage PZ to bring down the banhammer. Hasn't that worked recently to resolve other disputes? (Just a note of levity on such an ugly thread.)

Posted by: bastion of sass | May 19, 2010 12:29 AM

and but

Can't spell ("comendable" in another thread), can't proof read either. But, I believe I still can be sassy, and that's what's really important, no?

Posted by: iDeclare | May 19, 2010 12:30 AM

I'm the author of the blog that PZ's message pointed to. I just wanted to thank everyone for the comments. After hearing from this guy a couple of times, I couldn't work up the will to respond any more -- I was just too disgusted. It's nice to see I'm not the only one.

I was torn about whether or not to post his message in the first place. On one hand, it's an excellent example of exactly what some of us are fighting against. On the other hand, it made me want to vomit (and had to be even more painful for those of you who had reason to take the remarks more personally).

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 19, 2010 12:32 AM

Garrett:

I think you're right that overt evil and bigotry is becoming less acceptable, though I can't help but wonder if progress has been slowed. I also wonder if astonishingly great ignorance is on the rise (partly because our public education system is so very, very poor and partly because the corporate media doesn't have a vested interest in promoting critical, rational thought). Look no further than the Tea Parties and the way in which the corporate media exaggerates their numbers/influence.

Yeah, I wonder about that myself. I think there's been a backlash because America is beginning to lose its religion, I'm hoping that backlash is short-lived. It was pointed out to me recently that many religious countries, who happen to be way ahead of us on human rights, such as gay marriage, started to lose their religion about 30 years ago, while America is just now starting that process. It's an upheaval, and things are going to be rocky for a while.

The more covert, institutionalized forms of bigotry are awfully dangerous.

No argument there and it is a problem here.

While I do agree we can plant seeds along the way, I don't think significant progress will happen anytime soon unless we march in large numbers. Massive numbers of people must force the issue. That means joining forces with religious folks.

This I'm just not sanguine about. I don't think we do need to join with religious folks. I think we just need our own mob, so to speak.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | May 19, 2010 12:35 AM

Why are people surprised? If you only read the bible, these evil twits believe that the only reason that rape is bad is because your damaging the fathers property.

"Pro-life" = misogyny = so very anti-life

Posted by: justawriter | May 19, 2010 12:35 AM

Jesse the Body has offered in the past to waterboard idiots. Maybe we should find out how long it would take this guy to deny all his Christian principles. But no, while he finds it perfectly acceptable to get off on other people's pain, we damned godless liberals are morally bound to respect his, well, what he would call god given rights, even as he would seek to deny them to others.

Posted by: Kliwon | May 19, 2010 12:40 AM

Are there any doctors on this website who could remove this fuckwit's head from his arse?
Obviously, doesn't know his Holey Babble either. JC was supposed to be god and could have hopped of the cross any time he felt like it. He only 'died' to make up for Adam and Eve doing a bit of scrumping, as RD puts it.

Posted by: Amber | May 19, 2010 12:44 AM

I took my aggression out on my lawn and I feel a little bit better.

This reminds me of when I told a female friend about my rape (I was a child when I was raped) and she looked at me and said that I should have known better. I was 7, the new kid in the neighborhood, playing with all the other kids at a neighbors house. The father said "hey, let's play hide and seek!" We all started to run and hide and he took my hand and pulled me into the garage and locked the door behind him. He beat me, he burned me and he raped me. How was that my fault? How will I really ever get over that? I go to therapy and I've made so much progress, but reading that... I just can't explain how it makes me feel.

As a side note, I've been a long time reader but never commented before. It kinda sucks that this is my introduction into active participation on PZ's blog.

Posted by: Amber | May 19, 2010 12:49 AM

Oh yeah, ex-friend for sure. That was the incident that cemented it.

Posted by: Ichthyic | May 19, 2010 12:50 AM

I told a female friend about my rape (I was a child when I was raped) and she looked at me and said that I should have known better.

ignore the words. My first reaction would be to assume displacement behavior on your friend's part; a defensive reaction.

OTOH, if she insists on that as a logical position, she isn't, and isn't capable of being, your friend, and she needs some counseling herself to deal with her lack of empathy.

Posted by: deriamis | May 19, 2010 12:51 AM

@Ichthyic: Yes, I suffer from SIWOTI Syndrome. I admitted as such quite some time ago.

Caine:

No, that would be too much to wish for. There's no particular need to encourage it, either.

@iDeclare: Thank you for pointing this out to us, and thank you for concern for those who have been raped. In my particular case, I can't say that I feel ashamed about it because I was able to take control of the situation and get out of it. I feel heartbroken for all the men and women who were in a much worse situation, some of which ended with their lives being taken. I honestly think that it's because of idiots like the one you pointed out to us who attempt to minimize the victim's suffering that we haven't managed to make rape more rare than it is.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 19, 2010 12:55 AM

deriamis:

Sure, Jesus suffered on the cross, but he also knew (supposedly) for a fact that there was an afterlife and he would be resurrected. (Actually, even when I was a Christian, I never fell into that school of thought.) How does that in any way compare to someone being violated and thinking they may not survive the night? I just don't get it.

There's no comparison whatsoever. Jesus didn't die, he took a 3 day nap. If you or I had been murdered during or after our rapes, we wouldn't get a nice, 3 day nap. *Poof* we'd be gone, dead for real. And I don't know about you, but I sure as hell felt tortured during my rape. So, Jesus ain't got anything on us, we had a hell of a lot more at stake.

Posted by: alysonmiers | May 19, 2010 12:59 AM

and she looked at me and said that I should have known better.

*boggles*

Should have known better than WHAT, exactly? Should have known better than to go to a neighbor's house to play with the other kids? Should have known better than to run and hide just like all the other kids when someone starts a game of hide-and-seek? Or did your friend (and I use the term loosely) simply think you shouldn't have "let" a grown man pull your little 7-year-old self into the garage?

Shit, how people do suck. I'm sorry you had to go through that. The rape/torture AND the epically insensitive belittling.

Posted by: deriamis | May 19, 2010 1:07 AM

And I don't know about you, but I sure as hell felt tortured during my rape. So, Jesus ain't got anything on us, we had a hell of a lot more at stake.

The whole Jesus thing...yeah, I never really believed it, even as a Christian. I had a pastor one time try to explain that Jesus really didn't know that he would be resurrected because he didn't know he was the Son of God. Either way, the fact that Jesus was resurrected makes his suffering a very low price paid for what was supposed to be the Original Sin.

Posted by: chaseacross | May 19, 2010 1:09 AM

Yes, Christian women are stronger. They're so tough, they will suffer in silence while those uppity feminists are out expressing outrage and demanding justice. You go, girl! And by "go," I mean stay... in the kitchen... barefoot and pregnant.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | May 19, 2010 1:12 AM

I have to just give my two cents...

As bad as the original fuckwit is...I can't help but also be disgusted by Slanted Science. SS in bringing up the whole abortion bs (btw, as a new graduate If I decide to go through med school I would do an abortion as much as a cyst removal or cosmetic surgery.) is belittling rape. I mean he sees these real confessions and real pain people go through and what does he do "Yeah yeah yeah, that's all so sad...but what about these fetuses?" I mean, what does it say that in this topic on rape and all he draws the line right to the idea of forced breeding.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 19, 2010 1:17 AM

ashleyfmiller:

I'm posting under my real name, so I have a hard time being fully open about my own experiences, suffice to say it was many times over many years when I was a teen.

To call it theft is to miss the fact that what was stolen can never be replaced and what was broken can't ever be fixed.

Damn straight. Thank you for sharing too, Ashley. We deserve a voice and that voice should be strong.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | May 19, 2010 1:31 AM

Caine, Fleur de Mal wrote:

There's no comparison whatsoever. Jesus didn't die, he took a 3 day nap.

Exactly. That's why it's important to point out to Christians that what their so-called messiah allegedly did does not count as a sacrifice unless the meaning of the word is changed to mean 'temporary imposition preceding a few weeks of flitting around followed by eternity ruling in Heaven'.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | May 19, 2010 1:39 AM

Damn it, that should be "men" in #231.

I apologize for my stupidity.

Posted by: wanderinweeta | May 19, 2010 2:34 AM

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I have to quote this first.

It makes no sense for it to be a sin for a man to rape his wife since a man can’t rape his wife.

I wonder if his wife agrees. I know my preacher ex-husband would. He was wrong.

Christian women can also take a lot more than atheist women. Maybe this is part of the reason that atheists get so hung up about this. Christian women can turn to Christ or worship God in their hearts and endure great suffering.

They endure great suffering, sure. Even more than the non-Christian women do, because of that all pervading guilt resulting from being a "daughter of Eve". For the rest of their life as a Christian, they will be asking themselves what they did (or didn't do) to tempt the man so. And what God is trying to teach them through this.

I am sitting here, unable to find words to express my disgust and anger. I'm remembering how, as a good Christian wife, trying to forgive, trying to submit with a whole heart, trying to do my full duty as a wife, I used to kiss my husband goodbye in the morning, saying, "Have a good day," and adding mentally, "... and I hope a train runs over you." And then praying for forgiveness all day for that evil thought.

These days, of course, I'm not afraid to think and feel, so my wishes would not be quite so nicey-nice.

Sometimes I wish there really were a hell. And demons with red-hot, spiky tails. Long ones.

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | May 19, 2010 2:34 AM

It has been a tough slog getting through all of this. I really do not much to add to the discussion, most of the sensible and empathetic commenters have said what I would like to say. And I am sure that most of the regulars have some idea what I think about this. But I really want to slap this christian silly for suggesting that divorce is worse than rape.

While I have been lucky enough not to have been raped and seeing I am not likely to get married and therefore, divorced; I can see what it has been like for one woman close to me, my mother. When my mother got her divorce, it was the best thing she could have done for herself and her children. While life as a single mother was rough (And being the eldest child, I had a lot of responsibilities.), it was better than having my father around. While my mother will not talk about, I am sure that she was raped repeated after the divorce. (Sorry, I do not want to go into details, all I will say is the man I think who did it took great delight in torturing everyone around him. He is my epitome of evil.) My mother was much more damaged by that man than from divorcing my father.

How dare that scumbag belittle the hardship my mother went through. And how dare this scumbag belittle the experiences of women everywhere. Caine, I so very much join you in the desire to cause great harm. As you fully know, this is despite the fact that we know it is wrong.

For all of the lurkers who have told their stories of surviving rape, thank you for your bravery in telling your stories. As Caine has stated earlier, I ask that you please stay as regulars. We always need people like you here. And I hope that this blog is one small shelter for all of you.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 19, 2010 2:49 AM

Janine:

While my mother will not talk about, I am sure that she was raped repeated after the divorce. (Sorry, I do not want to go into details, all I will say is the man I think who did it took great delight in torturing everyone around him. He is my epitome of evil.) My mother was much more damaged by that man than from divorcing my father.

Jesus Effin' Christ, that's terrible, Janine. The damage didn't stop with your mother, either. It affected you and your siblings too. I'm sorry. There are so many different facets to the effects rape has on people, it's very hard to believe that any idiot could possibly consider it to be less harmful than a divorce.

Posted by: jcmartz.myopenid.com | May 19, 2010 2:56 AM

If it comes from Pat (Marion Gordon) Robertson, I'm not surprised! True Christian^TM, indeed!

Posted by: bonnie.nepenthes | May 19, 2010 3:03 AM

I have been raped, but I haven't been divorced, but if I may compare using past relationships...
It has taken me 5 years 4 counselors and a good friend, and I am only now recovering and functioning in society after being raped by someone I trusted. Compare that to previous relationships that lasted over a year - it hurt when they ended, but it only took a couple of months and no counselors to "get better".

To add a bit more to my past... It was by a boyfriend of mine and the first time it happened I was 14. It always hurt, and I was always being threatened by him. He was a twisted fuck that made me do it to show his power over me. It took 5 months, and the help of the one friend who stayed by me to leave him (even they didn't know the full extent of what happened at the time). In the years that followed, I was so scared of people, especially males. The first counselor (school counselor) said "the only problem is see is that you're upset about losing your virginity" and the next two said "sorry, I know who it is you're talking about, go find someone else" as he had tried to commit suicide a few times (attention seeking only - no serious attempts). I used to get frequent flashbacks that would leave me depressed for the next 3-4 days. Ever since I left highschool (and seeing him every day) I have been so much better. Until I discovered yesterday he is becoming a primary school teacher.

Thank you to everyone for leaving your stories, you made me brave enough to tell mine too.

Posted by: Haley | May 19, 2010 3:23 AM

Bonnie, that man should not be a primary school teacher. I support your decision to deal with your trauma in the best way for you, and given how the horrible counselors reacted I completely understand why you might not want to pursue this, but do you know if pressing charges at this point could prevent him from holding power over children?

I'm really sorry if this is offensive or horribly stupid of me. I know that rapes hardly ever result in a conviction and that if the case even goes to trial the victims are too often re-victimized. I just can't stand the thought of such a horrible person being in a position of authority over minors after what he did to you and possibly other people.

Posted by: deriamis | May 19, 2010 3:29 AM

I used to kiss my husband goodbye in the morning, saying, "Have a good day," and adding mentally, "... and I hope a train runs over you." And then praying for forgiveness all day for that evil thought.

This is what rape is: sexual power over another. I have had sexual power exerted over me by the boys and girls at school in addition to the man who raped me. I can't know what it is like to live as a woman, but I can only imagine it to be worse.

Seriously, how does our society function when your worth comes down to whether what is between your legs satisfies what is between someone else's, and whether someone can force you to do so?

Posted by: SamB | May 19, 2010 3:47 AM

Would you murder your children after because they remind you of your ex husband?

lol Medea

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 19, 2010 4:28 AM

Janine:

Thank you, Caine. But I will say that my mother, you, and others got it worse than my siblings or I did. But I understand what you mean by the repercussions.

I'm glad you spoke up, because I think your situation brings up an important point which is often overlooked. The effects of rape are not isolated to the victim. When a person is raped, the effects ripple outward to family and friends.

It does affect those around you and it sure as hell affects your intimate relationships. How a person deals with being raped can often have devastating effects on those close to the person. There's grief, oftentimes depression, oftentimes self-medicating, oftentimes overwhelming anger, etc. All those things are passed on to family and friends. Obviously, this is never even thought about to those who subscribe to the "suck it up and get over it" school of thought.

Posted by: Escuerd | May 19, 2010 4:35 AM

I can't express the appropriate sentiments of disgust at the attitude behind the piece as well as so many of the posters here, so I won't try.

I just wonder how many Christians think that no amount of suffering anyone else can ever feel will be equal to or greater than the amount of suffering of Jesus during the crucifixion (assuming it's all true, etc.).

Is this an essential part of some subset of Christian theology? It certainly seems like lots of Christians are fond of cramming as many superlatives and infinities as they can into their theology.

Posted by: Kel, The Privileged View From Nowhere | May 19, 2010 4:44 AM

I'd be slightly more sympathetic to pro-lifers if their interests was really in preventing abortion. I wouldn't agree with them, but at least I think they would be more consistent that way. Why aren't they looking at countries with low teen pregnancy and low abortion rates to see what they are doing right? If I were really anti-abortion, I'd be doing all I could to see the practice effectively eliminated. But they don't. We're not seeing the Netherlands or Japan held up as examples to follow, there's not an active call to implement what are successful in their own society. There's just moral outrage at the practice itself.

And therein lies the key to me. It's not about abortion, it's about being seen as being morally outraged. This movement isn't about stopping the practice and that's tragic for them.

Posted by: John Morales | May 19, 2010 4:48 AM

Damn. I just about cried reading the stories here.

Posted by: eMel | May 19, 2010 4:55 AM

I've been labeled as a murderer and a Nazi by far right-wingers online when I told them that I felt abortion should be a matter of individual choice, for each individual to decide according to their individual beliefs, free from outside pressures. I still face palm when I think of that. It's amazing what depths people will sink to when they're faced with a differing opinion.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 19, 2010 5:04 AM

Bride of Shrek:

Despite incredible family support it still sent me into a spiral of self loathing and disgust where I did everything I could to mutilate the beautiful 15 year old I was. An almost fatal eating disorder, a cycle of self harming and many wasted years of my life giving them further power by letting them remain in my head.

On that note, the one aftereffect that's the most difficult for me to talk about? The scars running up both my arms. I spent hours sitting with an exacto knife, slicing myself up.

Posted by: wanderinweeta | May 19, 2010 5:23 AM

Caine #250

The effects of rape are not isolated to the victim. When a person is raped, the effects ripple outward to family and friends.

Some of them even -- horrors! -- males! Real people!

Bride of Shrek #249

... dropped him ... decked one of our finest.

Way to go!

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | May 19, 2010 5:32 AM

Ugh...

I'm not belittling it but think about it, no amount of suffering from rape is as great as the suffering our Lord suffered on the cross for our sins.

This is about on a level with "I'm not a racist, I just don't trust those damn [insert-racial-epithet-here]..."

Again, it has to be said: what a revolting and morally bankrupt comment. On every level.

Posted by: Ichthyic | May 19, 2010 5:46 AM

If anyone's curious, it involves rusted jigsaw blades and that monster's urethra.

that's it! I'm finking on you to M&K!

:P

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawlYsr7JcV8eqKiPpIoriG2QnriFbtXSDNU | May 19, 2010 5:55 AM

Turn around and walk?
It makes me wanna bitch slap the f***er. I know, it sounds harsh, but it's really not that bad for him. After all, he's got Jesus to turn to, so he can take it far better than any of us could!

Posted by: DominEditrix | May 19, 2010 5:58 AM

There's a science fiction story wherein the person who committed rape and murder is forced to relive the crime - as the victim. Over and over. I've often wished that were possible.

I used to volunteer at a rape hot-line. No divorce, however hostile, could ever be worse than rape.

Posted by: Sioux Laris | May 19, 2010 6:09 AM

"Atheists always use rape as an argument for justifying killing because they want to justify abortion. But is rape really that bad? It's a horrible experience but you get over it with time."

This kind of Xian (and "theist") would know. To them, murder is at worst "a horrible experience but you get over it with time" (though usually something you are, in front of your "brethren" anyway, snickeringly callous about or manfully proud of. As long as your Pope, priest, minister, mullah, etc. tells you it's for your faith.

How sure people like this are, who, quite obviously, have never suffered at all about anything that even threatened to touch their little tin hearts, about the pain of others!

And yet I do not wish them anything but the travails and happiness that can be found in any human life, though I can be said to hate them.

Posted by: Pikemann Urge | May 19, 2010 6:31 AM

Aquaria #271

IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER WHAT HIS ASSERTIONS ARE FUCKTARD!

Jesus fucking Christ, what is wrong with you?

I think you read too much into Jenn's post (#46) and completely misunderstood it. It's pretty clear that she is not approving of the Christian quoted in PZ's post.

It's like saying this: to a Nazi, Jews are vermin scum, so for him, with his assumptions, it's no moral crisis to make them suffer for years in camps.

Posted by: brinylon | May 19, 2010 6:55 AM

Tangentially; while being nailed to a cross until you die doesn't seem like fun to me, I can't get my head around the concept that somehow Jesus' death was the worst suffering ever.

A lot of stuff happened through the ages, often in the name of christianity, that might beat crucifixion on any given day.

Not that I would advocate a painful death olympics, not really. But the write of this little piece of tripe needs a swift kick in the ballz. Wonder where that would rank with him.

Posted by: Moggie | May 19, 2010 7:05 AM

I'm late to this thread, a hard thread to read. There's nothing I can add to what has already been said... but simply expressing horror at the psychopathic OP, and empathy for those who have shared their experiences of rape, doesn't seem enough. So I'm setting up a monthly donation to a charity which helps victims of rape, Rape Crisis:

http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/

Quoting from their site: Rape Crisis (England and Wales) is a feminist organisation which exists to promote the needs of women and girls, who have experienced sexual violence, to improve services to them and to work towards the elimination of sexual violence. The first Rape Crisis Centre opened in 1973 and is independent of the government and the criminal justice system. Rape Crisis Centres are frontline services providing crucial support and independent advocacy for all women and girls of all ages who have experienced any form of sexual violence. Rape Crisis centres aim to offer specialist support, advocacy, counselling and information to women and girls, free of charge and in confidence, in a safe and non-threatening environment.

Perhaps other posters can recommended suitable charities in other countries, and we can turn our disgust into tangible help for rape victims?

Posted by: Aquaria | May 19, 2010 7:25 AM

that's it! I'm finking on you to M&K!

Oh yeah. I'm quaking.

Seriously, I thought about mentioning attaching his dick to the floor with a nail gun, but a) not enough subtlety, b) not enough pain and c) I'm not sure if nails are made that small.

Posted by: Anubis Bloodsin the third | May 19, 2010 7:33 AM

Although 'Jenn' was certainly guilty of unclear prose, which apparently bordered on an 'apologetic' stance.

The fact remains that whatever this religiotards assumptions were...THERE WAS AND IS NO FUCKING EXCUSE...for a view that is at best misguided and ignorant of the reality of rape or at worst misogynistic mental masturbation so beloved of fundie death cults.

How anyone can excuse such an inhuman and frankly insane pontification, let alone those that actually make the claim, not only beggars belief but seriously encourages the view that most religious wackaloons are indeed mentally disturbed inadequate buffoons who are quite obviously to challenged in competency to actually be allowed to mix safely with the rest of decent society.
Care in the community should not apply to batshit jebus droolers!
Mental illness is a tragedy, but when it is self inflicted it is a crime against humanity.

Xians must be so proud of themselves, and of their own, that self analysis and criticism is not ever required, and that in itself is indicative of an arrogant and ignorant world view that is hampered by being actually totally fucking barking mad.

Posted by: JBlilie | May 19, 2010 8:00 AM

While obnoxious from anyone, that this comment came from a male is particularly obscene. What a miserable exceuse for a son/brother/husband/father of a daughter.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | May 19, 2010 8:11 AM

Jesus was whipped and was crucified for three hours. A good torturer could keep a victim alive for days. Jesus had it easy compared to an Inquisition or Gestapo victim.

Posted by: KingUber | May 19, 2010 8:23 AM

Ignoring all of the Christian BS, this person has a point. Rape is bad (in fact worse than he's making it out to be) but murder is still worse

Posted by: otrame | May 19, 2010 8:31 AM

Wow. I qualify on all three scenarios. I was raped (by my grandfather when I was 13), I got a divorce (probably doesn't quite count--it was amicable), and I once slammed a tray down on the head of a customer in the diner I worked in when he groped me. He was there most nights and was a friend of the owner. Went and told the boss and he said basically said good for you. Not all southern men are creeps.

I hate seeing how many here have suffered this way.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | May 19, 2010 8:38 AM

I tend to be a rather passive person. Gentle in nature, I rescue animals and insects if they're in danger of being squished or drowned, I almost cried yesterday when I saw a dead deer on the side of the road, and I did cry when I brought an injured bird to a wildlife rehabilitation center and they had to euthanize it.

If I ever, ever, met anyone that pigheaded, that misogynistic, you can be sure that I would punch them until they're bloody.

@Caine and Others:

I can only offer words and cyber hugs for what happened to you. *hugs* People can be so evil sometimes.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | May 19, 2010 8:48 AM

I hate threads like these. It's been 30 years this very year since my attack. I get to relive it all again as soon as the topic comes up.

Now I'm crying.

Posted by: Louis | May 19, 2010 9:08 AM

@Carlie #295,

Thanks, that's basically what I figured. I am probably slurring the character of genuine and good hearted men working in rape crisis centres, but "client facing" (if that's the right word, sounds awfully euphemistic to me) jobs in rape crisis centres don't strike me as being anything a man should be involved in.

Louis

Posted by: Evolved Dolly | May 19, 2010 9:37 AM

I’ve commented every now and again here, always somewhat tentatively because I tend to be overawed by the magnificent brain power on show from everyone else… Can be a bit intimidating.

But THIS… This makes my blood boil, makes me angry, sad, hurt all at the same time. So I have to say something…

Aged 13, some turd in his mid-twenties got me drunk and high, and took the inevitable advantage, and then 10 years ago aged 15 I was gang raped by some evil, pathetic, horrible, vile, contemptible monsters. On New Years Eve, so you see my millennium didn’t really start out all that great. The policeman I eventually found (in Brussels) told me to ‘go home, there’s nothing we can do’. The one teacher I chose to confide in refused to, would not or could not believe me.

And so I decided to deal with it on my own. Which backfired horribly when I was 18 and it all came out in the wash.
I will NEVER forget the look on my fathers face when he found out why I was so difficult, and why I had been behaving like an unreasonable, and sometimes downright scary crazy teenager. He was heartbroken. I still wish they never knew. I feel guilt for what it did to my family. What I did to them over the whole sorry mess. I didn’t want to hurt them.

How dare this ignorant scrunt presume to know how bad or not rape is. Fuck off pal.

Thank you for letting me share, I’m sorry it’s a bit convoluted and badly thought out. My brain is still reeling from the shock.

Posted by: croor | May 19, 2010 9:48 AM

I posted this on the original site too.

But is rape really that bad? It’s a horrible experience but you get over it with time. If you use it to justify murder you’re never going to get over it. Imagine you have a painful divorce. Would you murder your children after because they remind you of your ex husband? Of course not. I think any woman would easily tell you that a painful divorce is worse than rape but it’s not an excuse to kill your baby, so why is rape?

1. Rape is a violent crime and is universally traumatic. Divorce is usually not. The victim who's getting raped does not choose that fate; divorcees most often do... (you moron)

2(a). Abortion is not murder. The foetus is not a baby, atleast insofar as multicellular balls of goo aren't babies.

2(b). Not being a parent or a woman, I can't be certain about this, but I think it's rather difficult to form intimate personal bonds with balls of goo. Children, on the other hand, parents do form bonds with; usually very intimate, and lasting whole lifetimes.

Posted by: redrabbitslife | May 19, 2010 10:09 AM

I was lucky- for some reason the guy who dragged me into the bushes telling me what he was going to do next changed his mind when I started screaming. I don't know why, and I do know I was likely to have wound up raped and/or dead. I was just lucky.

I'm a female and a doctor, and there is an insane amount of rape that I do hear about (and actually, most of it has been stranger rape), so it makes me wonder exactly how much more can there be. So far, none of the women I have seen have been willing to press charges, which I think is a shame, but I don't press things.

I suspect it's the local culture: here, it's well known that domestic violence is never followed up by police; that police are hard on women making accusations of rape, and that women are often not believed.

It's wrong wrong wrong, and makes me so angry.

Posted by: QuarkyGideon | May 19, 2010 10:15 AM

This is why I support what people like richard dawkins and christopher hitchens do. Religion has poisoned the mind of this individual and wasted his/her life. I do not want this to continue further.

Posted by: Endor | May 19, 2010 10:28 AM

Louis - start with the Men Can Stop Rape group.
http://www.mencanstoprape.org/

Men need to be involved in such activism, as the sad truth of the world is that a LOT of people only hear something when it's said by a man.

This is a way for men to get involved that actually focuses on stopping rape, as opposed to the dealing with the aftershocks.

Posted by: Endor | May 19, 2010 10:34 AM

"I suspect it's the local culture: here, it's well known that domestic violence is never followed up by police; that police are hard on women making accusations of rape, and that women are often not believed."

Women who report rape are frequently questioned in an aggressive, threatening manner by police in the same fashion they would interrogate a suspected criminal.

The message is loud and clear and all women hear it - don't report it, because you will be on trial and he will get away with it.

The estimation is that 1 in 4 women have been victims of some sort of sexual assault. If true, that means there are a hell of a lot of rapists out there, the vast majority of whom get away with it, without even a moment's inconvenience.

The longer I spend involved in rape crisis centers, the more I understand the radical feminist separatists. I don't agree with them, but I understand.

Posted by: RijkswaanVijanD | May 19, 2010 10:35 AM

You just walk away.. Right after helping them on their last few steps before heaven

Posted by: Bernard Bumner | May 19, 2010 10:42 AM

Now that the catch-up is over, I am noticing that a disturbing percentage of the commenters are rape victims. Is anyone else noticing this? It's making me think that rape is much more prevalent than even I had thought.

Perhaps we should hope that it is not for that reason, but because those commenters feel that this is a place where their stories will recieve the intelligent and empathetic hearing they deserve.

Posted by: Louis | May 19, 2010 10:49 AM

@ Bernard Bumner #305:

I agree that a man (self included) might vocally decry rape to distance himself from rapist/misogynist/rape apologist men, but it can also come from a good place too. We can also genuinely care and want to help (or at least not be part of the problem).

@ Endor #306:

Thanks for the info. I'll put it to good use.

@ Deriamis #307:

But I ask you: is not showing that some men around her are caring individuals so much better for the recent rape victim? And is it true that all rape victims are female?

Oh I agree it could be a good thing to show that. I would imagine it's an individual preference thing for the victim.

As for the all rape victims being female thing, well obviously not. But to be frank, (like with the FGM thread) too many men make the thread "all about the menz" when discussing things that primarily affect women. I'm concerned I'm doing it now to be honest*. I thought about a line or to in a previous post about male rape victims being helped by seeing a sympathetic male face. However, men are a minority of rape victims by a large margin, so I thought my anal retentive desire for 100% accuracy and completeness would have been insulting/distracting in that instance and left those lines out. ;-)

Now that the catch-up is over, I am noticing that a disturbing percentage of the commenters are rape victims. Is anyone else noticing this? It's making me think that rape is much more prevalent than even I had thought.

I had the same thought, just not as politely! I thought "how fucking common does rape have to be for a significant number of the few hundred self selecting commenters here to be survivors of rape?". It's a horrifying thought. I know the stats, but stats are cold.

Louis

*I don't mean to do this. I'm motivated by a desire for some constructive information to come out of the collective wisdom of people here.

Posted by: Bernard Bumner | May 19, 2010 10:59 AM

Aquaria,

Sorry for the offense. I hastily edited the post, and left out what I originally quoted you for. I left the quote in, because it seemed relevant as I rushed to re-read it. Still, I presume that I missed your intended context, and misconstrued your post. I should also have better explained my intentions for posting.

Don't preach to the choir, and don't assume anyone here is as big a moron as you implied.

That I don't see. Please explain.

I went the fucking distance.

Good. I mean it. I'm glad that people like you are able to do that, and I hope I never do anything that pisses on your sacrifices and struggles. I hope that I'm not even a tiny part of the system that make it difficult for victims to get justice.

You don't tell someone like me that I can't let the good men know that women know they're out there, that they don't have to take the fall for things that they don't (and will never) do, and that we appreciate their support.

Nope. And I wasn't trying to.

I was simply trying to articulate some of the angst that I feel as a man when discussing sexual violence against women. I should have explained that in the first place. Believe it or not, part of the reason that I was editing was because I didn't want to unintentionally come across as patronising or stomp on anyone's feelings.

I really am sorry.

Posted by: Nepenthe | May 19, 2010 11:01 AM

@ Louis

Sorry. Didn't mean to preach. The comments just got crossed in the intarwebs and I didn't see deriamis' comment before uploading my own screed.

Posted by: Bobber | May 19, 2010 11:10 AM

Ignoring all of the Christian BS, this person has a point. Rape is bad (in fact worse than he's making it out to be) but murder is still worse

As noted by the good Rev above, there is no murder.

But in the same vein, to say that the taking of a life is worse that rape because, hell, if you're raped at least you're still ALIVE... that's a load of bullshit anyway. Some people take their own lives because the trauma they lived through is destroying them from within. Yes, there are some experiences that are, indeed, worse than death - and not everyone has the ability to bear the scars and go on.

Posted by: Katharine | May 19, 2010 11:12 AM

Jenn said, "I think he makes a good point that a painful divorce can be worse than rape."

Bullshit. Divorce doesn't include physical violation.

Posted by: Bernard Bumner | May 19, 2010 11:20 AM

Louis,

I agree that a man (self included) might vocally decry rape to distance himself from rapist/misogynist/rape apologist men, but it can also come from a good place too. We can also genuinely care and want to help (or at least not be part of the problem).

Absolutely. I explained myself poorly. I meant that in a context such as this, where there is clearly unity against rape, men - and most definitely myself - can feel the need to say something simply to be heard to say it. Ironically, I think that was part of what I was doing; I felt slightly queasy that I'd been following the thread but hadn't commented.

As it is, I seem to have offered up something which is prone to be misinterpeted. I didn't really explain my self well enough.

Just to be clear: of course we should all take any opportunity to do something about rape and violence, and it should be a positive thing done for the right reasons. I applaud your desire to be as actively involved as possible.

Posted by: Louis | May 19, 2010 11:28 AM

@ Bernard Bumner,

As it is, I seem to have offered up something which is prone to be misinterpeted. I didn't really explain my self well enough.

Happens to the best of us.

As for the rest, I think we're all singing from the same hymn sheet...to use a euphemism that is guaranteed to raise eyebrows around here!

Louis

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | May 19, 2010 11:32 AM

I think he makes a good point that a painful divorce can be worse than rape

I know what both of these feel like.

They are not the same.

Divorce is much better.

Divorce = realizing you can not control some one else's actions towards themselves and those actions impact you indirectly because you are emotionally connected to them, that they control their lives, even if you love them, that love may not mean what it did, that things change, that people leave, that values alter, that you didn't realize you made mistakes that there is no remedy for.

Painful things.

Rape = realizing you can not control some one's actions against you directly, that emotional connection can not stop them from hurting you, that being a total stranger can not keep them from hurting you, that you are never safe from anyone, that you will not be believed if you are injured, that you will be attacked, that there is nothing you can do to protect yourself, that your body is not your own.

These are not so much "painful" as profoundly traumatizing.

Are there some things in common here? Only a few, and it is a matter of scale.

*Emotional connection can not stop some one you loved from hurting you.*

Yes. This is in common in abuse, divorce, rape.

However it does not make these things the same, and it does not make sense to equate the scale of them.

In both one may feel that their feelings don't matter, but in divorce their feelings are about another person. In rape your feelings about your own physical safety and well being do not matter.

It's more similar to attempted homicide. Having also felt that. Yes, it is more similar to that.

When you know that some one is raping you you know you may also be killed because some one who can physically rape you can physically murder you.

It's that simple.

Now, how can some one be so twisted they thing divorce could be as painful as rape?

EASY. They think they own their partner, so much that the partner leaving and hurting them emotionally, cutting off love from them, makes them feel like something of *theirs* is being taken.

It isn't.

Nobody is ever yours. You can't always have or keep what you like anyway. Grown up life lessons from pre-school.

Maybe they have no regard for their partner's identity. Their partner, who may want the divorce, is nothing, has no feelings. The person who would feel this way is so self involved that they can not even relate to the person divorcing them and so completely sure that their love entitles them to ownership of that person that the divorce feels like a personal attack?

Who knows. But it definitely suggests to me a lack of recognition of the partner as an individual to compare divorce (being hurt by some one's leaving) to rape (being hurt by an acute attack on one's self).

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | May 19, 2010 11:40 AM

Now, that same person in your family or close circle of friends is raped. Date raped, violently raped, whatever. How can you possibly not be fighting an impulse to grab a gun, a knife, a big fucking rock and exact some revenge?

Pose that question. Then get ready to be surprised by human beings again.

Posted by: Rorschach | May 19, 2010 11:41 AM

Ol'Greg @ 328,

comment saved for awesomeness.

Posted by: BlueIndependent | May 19, 2010 11:42 AM

I wonder if the person who said this is Catholic. After all, they'd feasibly be the most practiced and willing as rape apologists, since they have to excuse so much of that sort of thing.

I also think that the person who said this is male, particularly because the divorce reference seems to be an off-hand allusion to the idea that bad divorces = male rape in the material sense. Total conjecture but that's what came to mind. But if it needed to be said - which apparently it does since there are still far too many cretins infesting the planet - divorce is completely different than felonious sexual deviance against another's person.

And tying the whole discussion to abortion in the most obtusely illogical way is the sign of someone looking for excuse to believe anything.

Posted by: Endor | May 19, 2010 11:52 AM

"And don't even get me started on the reminders that follow you around every day, a scene in a TV programme, a stupid joke in the pub, a throw away comment from someone who ought really to know better."

This. A million times this. The "stupid jokes" were a recent topic of discussion here. I sincerely hope that more people hear this and realize that the "just a joke" they tell is ripping open the wounds of another human being, for shits and giggles. It's vicious in its apathy.

And Ol' Greg - you are one of the reasons I come here. Thank you for #328.

Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold | May 19, 2010 12:03 PM

The crucifixion of Jesus was not murder. It was an intense S&M session.

Posted by: Bernard Bumner | May 19, 2010 12:08 PM

And tying the whole discussion to abortion in the most obtusely illogical way is the sign of someone looking for excuse to believe anything.

It is really just more victim blaming. Telling people that it isn't so bad, and that Jesus suffered more than that for you, and that abortion is murder, is simply another exercise in control. As others have noted, the church doesn't really care about aborted foetuses, it cares about unquestioning fealty to dogma. It doesn't really care about victims, it cares about whether those self-same victims need the church. I think it was probably written by a priest.

The whole exercise is simply to say that doubt in faith is bad, feeling and thinking for yourself is bad, believing that control over your own body is paramount is bad.

Rape is trivialised and abortion is misrepresented, because they both highlight (what should unarguably be) the right of females to self-determination.

Posted by: deriamis | May 19, 2010 12:09 PM

Katharine:

Bullshit. Divorce doesn't include physical violation.

FossilFishy:

I've never been raped. Being male it is of course possible but far less likely.

Posted by: deriamis | May 19, 2010 12:20 PM

Dianne:

Eight years later I still wonder if I should have turned around and kicked him down the stairs.

Posted by: Trey Cheotomy | May 19, 2010 12:35 PM

... or even from a Christian troll, now laughing at the credulity shown here.

Posted by: Bernard Bumner | May 19, 2010 12:39 PM

How do we know it's not from a simple troll, now laughing with arms folded at the Barf-O-Rama he created?

What does it matter?

In this case, it has given us the opportunity to hear some important personal stories from some inspiring people, to reflect on their experiences, and learn something. (My own cockup contribution not withstanding.)

Even trolls have their value.

Posted by: dogdad | May 19, 2010 12:50 PM

Perhaps, if Jesus had actually been a real person and was actually crucified, the Romans would have had some "fun" with him while torturing him, Like rape? How would the christians feel about that?

Posted by: alysonmiers | May 19, 2010 1:03 PM

Like rape? How would the christians feel about that?

Then they'd say Jesus' rape was so much worse than anyone else's, so if you become the victim of a rape you should pray harder and Jesus will make you feel better about it.

Posted by: deriamis | May 19, 2010 1:06 PM

dogdad:

Perhaps, if Jesus had actually been a real person and was actually crucified, the Romans would have had some "fun" with him while torturing him, Like rape? How would the christians feel about that?

Anyway, that's fairly far afield of the topic. Suffice it to say that most Christians don't know what the non-existent Hell they are talking about when it comes to their own pseudo-deity anyway. So one of them standing up and proclaiming messiah envy on all raped women is even more disgusting because of it.

Posted by: Viperfish | May 19, 2010 1:25 PM

I have a question-what do you recommend as a good way to help a rape victim, both emotionaly and practicaly? I want to help people I met that were raped, but I'm a bit unexpirienced at being helpfull. Thank you.

Posted by: Amber | May 19, 2010 1:33 PM

@ Louis #289

I was raped as a child. When I went to court I wanted nothing more than a big, strong man, or several, to sit behind me as a protective layer I guess. I don't know, it's something to think about. I don't know if they even allow that.

Posted by: Nepenthe | May 19, 2010 1:49 PM

@ badgersdaughter 339

I must admit, I rarely tell my full story. Simply stating "My fiancé raped me" doesn't leave me subject to questions about whether it was really rape, whether it was my fault, or why I stayed in the first place. The rest of the story -- that he used my mental illness and physical disability to manipulate me, that he was emotionally abusive, that I really did love him -- just complicates things.

My parents tell me that this was a good learning experience and that I won't make the same "choices" again. My friends, the ones who know the story, will at least throw me a bone and say how proud they are that I left.

I think it's good for people like us to tell our stories; people should know that rape doesn't always look violent.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 19, 2010 2:05 PM

chgo_liz:

Statistics tell us that there are many invisible victims reading this thread. The ones who do not feel they can say something here at this time. Sometimes, the only control you have left is the control over what to tell, to whom, and when. Your pain and suffering is just as real, and just as supported here, as that of the posters who have felt able to confide on this thread.

QFT.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 19, 2010 2:12 PM

ladyh42:

What a terrible experience. Thanks for sharing that. Each experience is different, and it increases everyone's ability to understand the different circumstances of being raped and the psychological consequences.

Posted by: Tulse | May 19, 2010 2:20 PM

I am profoundly humbled by those folks who are willing to tell their stories here -- it is tremendously courageous.

Posted by: ladyh42 | May 19, 2010 2:30 PM

Thanks Caine, considering it's hard sometimes to know when you can tell someone (ie. when is it too much information, will it push others away) But one thing I have to say is Thank you PZ for giving us this forum to tell our stories in relative safety. The amount of support I've felt from here has been incredible and it's this group of people who make me realize that there are sane people and good men in this world. So thank you all.

'cept for SStroll, he can rot in his own filth.

Posted by: badgersdaughter | May 19, 2010 2:36 PM

(takes Nepenthe's hand respectfully and gives it a little squeeze)

Thanks, my dear.

I didn't even know it was rape for many years. Raped people, according to the stories I had heard, can point their shaking, traumatized finger at some violent scumbag and cry to heaven that they were abducted, attacked, beat up, cut, left crushed like an empty beer can on the side of the road.

I could only sit in a gray fog and point a finger at myself and wonder why I chose to be violated, and when I got pregnant because he lied to me about using birth control, it was my fault too, because sex does that and I should have known better. I still blame myself for it. It was 20 years ago and I haven't seen any reason not to blame myself for it.

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/tL1MkU0ghY0gNMrxrvSjJFsEYJYQ0ZIPjQ--#5f870 | May 19, 2010 2:40 PM

Misogyny, just one of the xian virtues

Xianity has long been a widespread cultural cancer; but that should not overshadow its beginning as small bands of fanatics drawn from the dregs of its originating cultures.

Paternalism, prudery, and pro-natalism. Mores dictating sexual control over women by men belong to a common cultural atavism -- faith based male supremacy. There is nothing moral about xian mores. They are immoral through and through.

The de-divination of western culture (including science) is our task for the next 100 years.

the anti_supernaturalist

Posted by: Amber | May 19, 2010 2:56 PM

@AnthonyK #371

A good therapist will help you learn to cope and move on. Sometimes something will trigger a setback. Like last night I couldn't sleep. I was having flashbacks. That is very, very rare for me now but when I see my therapist next week, I'll tell her and she'll help me figure out the trigger (reading the OP) and how I can better deal with it next time or maybe just avoid those topics entirely for a while. Mostly what she helps me with it the aftermath. I have trouble opening up to people in my life and I will do things to myself that aren't healthy. I've come a long way. I used to cover my body neck to wrists to ankles. In 90 degree weather I would be wearing jeans and a turtleneck. I no longer ask permission to get my haircut or get the tattoo I got. Weird things that other people wouldn't even think about I have to give myself permission to do. Before therapy I would think about the attack everyday. Now I can go weeks and weeks without thinking about it. I don't know, therapy has been really positive for me.

Posted by: badgersdaughter | May 19, 2010 2:57 PM

It wasn't a single event and it did take over my life.

You do what you have to; I sat inside a closet and covered my ears so I couldn't hear the baby crying, and I thought about killing myself, but I was a Christian and I had heard that God would send me to Hell if I did it, so I called a hotline and they told me that I didn't deserve to be treated like a slave and that it was OK to get out. So I did. Then the shelter ladies took my baby away because I was too exhausted and depressed to take care of him myself. My ex's folks paid an expensive lawyer to argue, successfully, at a court session that I was not notified of, that I was an unfit parent because I worked all the time and was never home and the baby wasn't being taken care of properly by his father, who stayed home watching TV and sleeping all day.

For a long time I was terrified of being pregnant because I was afraid I wouldn't be able to take care of and keep a baby. Now I'm 40, and even though I'm still theoretically fertile, the opportunity is lost.

My therapist concentrates on telling me not to focus on the past and that I'm a different person now. I'm certainly doing better; people like me, I have a good job, I have a lot of talents, I impress people sometimes. But they don't know.

This is not something I would recommend to others in my place, but I'm convinced that I'm not totally damaged past the point where I could carry my end of an excellent relationship with a good man. I'm solid silver, worth more than a lot of people's silverplate even if I do have a few scratches and dents. All I want is a chance to do it right this time.

Posted by: AnthonyK | May 19, 2010 3:07 PM

Thankyou. I am awestruck by the testimony of some here. I can't imagine how one single event could be so utterly devastating to one's life - or rather, I can now.
I think that the degree to which you blame yourself for what happened is perhaps the most difficult for someone who's never been through it to comprehend.
You have my deepest symmpathy - and admiration.

Posted by: KingUber | May 19, 2010 3:12 PM

Murder apologist bigdumbchimp.

You guys aren't even able to define when a fetus becomes a baby. One person said earlier that it's not a baby until the umbilical cord is cut.

Posted by: Endor | May 19, 2010 3:15 PM

translated KingDoucher:

Bitchez ain't shit! Let's me derail this productive thread with my misogynistic bullshit!

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 19, 2010 3:19 PM

And frankly, I apologize for even responding to your misogynistic idiocy in this thread considering where it has gone.

sorry everyone.

Posted by: Endor | May 19, 2010 3:22 PM

Carlie - thank you for posting that link. I was just trying to find it so I could do the same. All empathetic men need to read that.

Posted by: alysonmiers | May 19, 2010 3:29 PM

Awww, KingUber is trying to derail the thread. How cute. *patpatpat*

Posted by: lauruhhpalooza | May 19, 2010 3:38 PM

I am an atheist woman. I am a rape survivor. Tell me again how I'm somehow less able to handle this because I don't believe in God?

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | May 19, 2010 3:49 PM

Tell me again how I'm somehow less able to handle this because I don't believe in God?

Yeah. This I've never gotten. How is it supposed to make me deal better to know that some sky gremlin wants me to suffer, or wouldn't have had to do this to me if I wasn't such a bitch, or will always be that histrionic person at a party whose life is so much worse than anyone else's.

Yep.

Cuz what my life needs is one more narcissist in it.

No. Religion didn't help me. Recognizing the damage religion does though and how it affects even people like me who didn't really consider themselves religious to begin with certainly has helped. It's helped me come to terms at least with a lot of things about people.

I think what this poster really means though is that religion helps women STFU, and if no one's yapping about problems then there ain't no problems. Right?

Posted by: Technopaladin | May 19, 2010 4:21 PM

It frightens me so many people have been raped. I know the stats were high but it never really sunk in.
So many survivors, It was both heart breaking and uplifting to read your stories. Thank you for sharing them even though they choked me up.

I am against heretic, cross, flag, witch and book burnings...but i find myself neutral on rapist and pedaphile burnings.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | May 19, 2010 4:26 PM

Thank you, Carlie for the link you gave in #379. Even though I've been in a stable relationship for over 30 years there were things talked about in that blog that I should have considered years ago.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 19, 2010 4:35 PM

Ol'Greg:

I think what this poster really means though is that religion helps women STFU, and if no one's yapping about problems then there ain't no problems. Right?

More or less. There are groups of xians where the women are taught from the earliest age, that suffering is their lot in life; they brought it on themselves (Eve and all that) and they also have submissiveness pounded into them. I'm reminded of those types who buy specially made modesty clothing, etc. These women are so ground down to begin with and everything in their life reinforces the notion that if something is fucked up, it's their fault, somehow or another.

They aren't 'godly' enough; they aren't submissive enough, they aren't doing this enough, they aren't doing that enough and so on. They're literally trained to suffer in silence.

Posted by: Who Cares | May 19, 2010 4:36 PM

@badgersdaughter(#395):
The nick is more of a zen joke. There are so many different ways/inflections to say those two words.
And I (now) know, and can accept, that strangers care about this. Otherwise I'd never have put up that post.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | May 19, 2010 4:52 PM

You guys aren't even able to define when a fetus becomes a baby. One person said earlier that it's not a baby until the umbilical cord is cut.

Posted by: Feynmanfan | May 19, 2010 4:53 PM

Wow, the article reads like something from the satirical website www.landoverbaptist.org

If you haven't yet discovered this website you owe it to yourself to check out the so-nutty-it-seems-real articles that appear there.

Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | May 19, 2010 5:02 PM

KingUber;

The fact that you care so little about women while spouting pious nonsense about abortion being "murder" makes two things clear to me.

1)Your strong suit is ranting hyperbole, not rational thought.

2) Your misogyny is so deep-seated that you may never be able to function normally in society.

I would say I pity you, but I am more concerned with the well being of the women that people like you spend so much time and effort trying to depict as nothing more than sub-human 'breeders'.

That and the fact that you and all your pseudo-moralistic, misogynist ilk make me sick to the pit of my stomach.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 19, 2010 5:09 PM

AnthonyK:

I sense that the topic of "therapists" is a whole different ball game.

Oh yeah. There are a lot of assholes out there, and there's no shortage of them when it comes to therapy. Just hearing one stupid, inane and insensitive comment after a rape can have a stunning effect. It's bad enough, some of what you hear from the cops, the attorneys, even medical personnel sometimes. When the person who is supposed to be there solely to help you says stupid shit, it's bad.

Posted by: starfevre | May 19, 2010 5:38 PM

As one of the (now not) invisible eyes, I'd like to thank the Survivors for posting this thread.

Posted by: wanderinweeta | May 19, 2010 5:48 PM

This thread has me in tears. It brings back so meany memories; that's part of it. But the other part is feeling the pain of the others who've shared (and probably quite a few who haven't).

About the long-term effect, let me go into a bit of background here:

I'm 67 years old. I've had time to see things resolve themselves. Or not.

My story, in brief: when I was 12, a bunch of local teenagers caught me and took me to a woodshed for a bit of recreational gang rape. They had me stripped and trembling when a couple of adult men happened to look in. The teenagers fled. The men looked at me, said nothing, and went out. I dressed and crept away.

I was lucky. But during the stripping part of it, one of the boys (the only one I knew) said, "What are you crying about? Your boyfriend says you do this all the time!" I didn't. Not even close. Seven years later, I was still angry.

I grew up and married a seminary student. He, at least would be safe; a good Christian man. I was wrong, and I knew it within the year. I stayed in the marriage, being the supportive pastor's wife for 17 years. It was the only thing to do as a sincere Christian. Divorce was sin. I was supposed to submit "as unto the Lord".

Most of our sex life was like someone has said upthread, quiet, non-dramatic, systematic rape. If I ever said no, I was beaten first and afterwards. It was better just to "think of England". Or Jesus, in this case. Besides, it was my duty as a Christian wife to please my husband, so says the apostle Paul.

Of course, there were the times when I awoke to find him on top of me. Not even the choice of beaten or not beaten, then.

When, a year after I had left, I was suicidal, I unloaded on a friend, a mature seminary student. He took me out to talk over drinks, got me drunk, and raped me. Great help that was!

Ok; how long did it take me to get over it?

Forever; otherwise, why would I be crying today?

But not quite, though. Mostly, it's now in the distant past. But it was 10 years before I could tolerate being touched, by anybody, even my poor kids. 10 years before I could talk to a man without an involuntary clenching at my gut. 20 years before I stopped being frightened if a man looked angry.

It was 30 before I could trust another man enough to consider a relationship. (I'm with a very good, gentle man now.)

My kids suffered, of course. They've had their issues, many of them caused by my isolation. Now, my oldest son is teaching his daughter self-defense strategies, telling her that grandma can throw an attacker across the room. I can; he's seen me do it. I learned too late, though. But I wish my son didn't think it was necessary to mention attack to a first-grader.

To the young ones in the aftermath of a rape, what can I say? It will always hurt, but it doesn't have to control your life forever. Give it time, and while you do, concentrate on becoming a whole person, yourself, not someone's idea of who you should be.

And never blame yourself; if you were young and naive, that's not a fault. That was then. You are responsible today for who you are today.

And you are never, ever, responsible for what another person does, no matter how you "provoked" them. Never.

Posted by: Kemist | May 19, 2010 6:05 PM

Atheists always use rape as an argument for justifying killing because they want to justify abortion.

Well, this atheist doesn't use rape as an argument at all. I don't give a rat's ass about how a woman gets pregnant - if she doesn't want it, it's her right to get rid of it, period.

My argument is associated risk. The only moral way to have someone else take risks for you is by having their informed consent. Pregnancy always presents risks of disability and death. If a woman agrees to take the risks, fine. But you can't force her if you call yourself a moral person.

I'll consider the pro-life consistent and non-hypocritical the day they proudly announce that they would like to institute a forced organ- and blood donation policy - if you are a compatible organ donor and would survive the operation, you will be considered guilty of murder if you fail to do so.

The "personhood" of a foetus is irrelevant. It's status as a parasite which puts its mother at risk, and the importance of the mother's informed consent in taking that risk is the thing that makes me proudly pro-choice, in all circumstances.

Posted by: ladyh42 | May 19, 2010 6:32 PM

"As for cues, it's parking lots and the smell of stale beer for me. Decades later, and I'm still surprised at just how intense my fear can be."

For me it's the ring of a certain type of cell phone. He used to call me to harrass/keep tabs on me

Posted by: Jeep-Eep | May 19, 2010 6:37 PM

Like I said. Creepy section desperately needed.

Posted by: naddyfive | May 19, 2010 6:51 PM

I don't really have it in me today to go through my own close-to-home experiences with rape and assault. But this thread reminds me that I should give my friend H. from high school a call. She dropped out of college about 5 years ago after being gang raped by most of the basketball team. She was drunk at the time, so when she went to the school administration, they told her that if she formally pressed charges, they'd be forced to kick her out for underage drinking.

I want her to know I'm thinking about her and I care. I still get physical upset and angry thinking about that specific case.

Btw, I don't find it all hard to believe the argument in the OP was made sincerely.

I've heard similar stuff come out of peoples' mouths plenty of times, in person. The anonymity of the internet doesn't just provide people with trolling opporutunities; it also provides people with the sense that they can finally speak their mind, make their arguments and thought experiments, without having to fear social alienation or sanction.

Posted by: genjokoan | May 19, 2010 7:15 PM

I believe in no gods. I do believe in evil. Walk away? No. I could not in good conscience walk away without at least considering driving a stake through this evil creature's heart. One can only hope that it has not reproduced.

Posted by: Samantha | May 19, 2010 7:45 PM

@Caine, all the way back at #193

Thank you, and my sympathies to you as well.

It's really weird and screwed up, but a lot of the way I managed to move on was by telling myself that I had fought back to the best of my ability and that I had done my best to prevent it happening to me before hand (no drinking, didn't go out to clubs never mind alone, never walked alone after dark, etc). On one hand, I'm so thankful that I was able to devote the full force of my blame onto the sick twisted man who actively ignored my body and words. On the other, it's ridiculous that our societal treatment of rape is such that even someone who actively fights rape culture finds themselves mentally caught up in it.

I never pressed charges because his Mom worked in the administration for my program and he threatened to have me kicked out if I told anyone. The school therapist said she couldn't help me if I wouldn't press charges. I went to a private therapist for a few sessions but couldn't afford more and didn't want to deal with the psych department at a hospital (which would be covered, but again might require me to report my rape to be admitted). I went on, healing myself along the way and doubling my cautions. I can now get myself out of almost any hold, provided I'm not drugged or being strangled because I went and took a number of different self-defence classes. I never went anywhere private alone with another male until about two years ago, when I met my current boyfriend. Even now that we live together, we rent the basement out to his Mom, as much for my sense of security as to help her out financially.

I have recovered what seems to be incredibly well. I can have consensual sex, even in the position I was raped in. I am able to go into some "risky" situations now without being totally afraid. I now only carry my extendable walking stick when I'm walking my dogs alone, and that's as much to fend off unleashed dogs as it is to make me feel safe(r). I know many MANY victims have a much harder time recovering and moving past the various fears and issues their rape enhances or causes. Some victims can't even speak about what has been done to them and I am able to be a part of my campus campaign against sexual violence. I count myself among the lucky and really just hate the fact that I had to use the blame thinking I now fight so hard against in order to get by.

Posted by: Patricia, OM | May 19, 2010 7:58 PM

Puduck - No. Don't feel sorry for 95% of christian women. As a former better christian than Betty Bowers, the pope and Bill Donahue, I can assure you I lived by my own stupidity, and felt I deserved being lower than a dog turd due to original sin .

King Uber - Go back to your own holy babble buck-o. Gawd says it is a baby when it draws it's first breath and not before. Gawd also prefers abortions done with swords. As a christian, you suck.

Posted by: Shala | May 19, 2010 8:25 PM

Do you happen to use pepper spray, Caine?

Posted by: Becca the Over Socialized | May 19, 2010 8:40 PM

I am in absolute awe of the strength, bravery, and beauty of some of the commenters here.

Posted by: Bride of Shrek OM | May 19, 2010 9:14 PM

Years ago I got myself some fairly high strength capsaicin solution ( I'll not say how as it is not available here unless under a special medical licence) and I carry that around in small, pump pack that used to have hairspray in it. It's strong enough to cause intense pain but, if an attacker is fit enough to chase after me so I have to use it, then odds are it's not going to cause him permanent damage.

I know it's illegal but I figure if I ever have to use it the bastard will have some fancy explaining to do if he wants to lay a complaint, as to why he got it in the face in the first place. Hell, I'll call the cops for him if he likes.

Posted by: Aquaria | May 19, 2010 9:34 PM

Huh. I don't use many self-defense tactics or weapons except for being aware, using good sense and attitude, since I have never, and will never, have much physical strength. Yeah, I was the puny little girl who was given books about getting physical activity from bicycling and horseback riding, so that I didn't feel like such a weakling all the time.

I'm a bit stronger now that I'm older, but not much. Working out doesn't change this, and usually ends up causing injuries. I can walk in moderation, cycle and swim. That's about it.

Since I can't do much about my strength, I don't carry a weapon, because I am well aware of how easily it could be taken from me. Plus, I'm not paying $1350+tax for a Kimber Ultra-Carry TLE LG/RL only to have it used against me! Heck, my hand and arm can handle only two or three shots with a pistol before I have to lower my arm and then fire some more.

However, I do recommend the 900KV Streetwise stun gun, for those unafraid to zap a creep. It doubles as a flashlight and is about the size of the standard Marks-a-lot. No strap, but you can get creative. >:)

Posted by: Chgo_Liz | May 19, 2010 10:05 PM

Badgersdaughter: In case no one has ever told you this before, your reaction of shock was normal and "right." How they portray rape victims on TV has NO bearing on reality. It tricks people into thinking that if a person isn't frantic and out of control, they weren't really violated. NOT TRUE.

Rape is a life-threatening traumatic experience, and a victim's natural response is to tuck oneself (body and psyche) inward, not draw attention to oneself by screaming and crying.

Posted by: SlantedScience | May 19, 2010 10:26 PM

Okay, just a couple pertinent posts before I cease checking back on this thread.

1) I stated in my first comment on this thread that connecting rape with abortion was lunacy, and that I would not mention the former. I have no comments made nor to make on rape, but what I took from the original post was that Myers feels abortion is inconsequential.

2) I don't believe in any kind of god, etc. I do believe in the "inalienable right" of humans not to be murdered. At what point a zygote becomes a human, I am not sure. You all seem to think that the point that it is teased from the womb is THE big moment. I don't' I think that this is a ludicrously arbitrary argument, and one which all of you self-professed scientific wunderkind should be ashamed to propose. By extension, IMO, this argument would mean that I can with clear conscience close my eyes, raise my gun-arm, and fire an automatic weapon into a crowd of people. Because I can't see them, they're not really there.

3) You all really need to think about what this place is. I believe it to be a website promoting atheism (and squid), which allows people to comment freely behind a discrete drape. As such, I think it's really counter-productive to have a gang of regulars who jump upon anyone not sharing their own POV. Very much like the religious websites, regular commenters act like a kind of mindpolice force: everybody's welcome, but if they start expressing views contrary to ours, we will jump on them with batons. Have a look at the video of muslim religious police actions for a hint of how you are, really, behaving.

4) Again, I don't feel anybody has yet adequately answered the question: "At what point between zygote and birth does a baby/embryo/thing cease to be killable? As I said, the morning-after pill is a wonderful invention; it allows women to gain more control over their pregnancies. At this point, only a lunatic would argut that they are killing a person. I'm really interested in the developmental point at which this thing becomes a baby. Many of you shouted "birth!", but I think that this is ludicrous. It implies that a doctor should be able to enter a woman the day before her due date and chop the embryo up with impunity and moral righteousness.

5) Please, no more with the emotional arguments. Commenters have accused me of this, but my examples are as nothing beside the people who have been dredging the swamps of womanhood to diminish my arguments. Really, folks: argument by emotion should be the preserve of the religious.

6) Goodnight y'all, and I hope that you can learn to accept/ignore those commenters who disagree with you. Because, in the end, we're all just a bunch of blod-commenters pissing into the wind.
And if you think you're anything more, then you are really, seriously deluded.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | May 19, 2010 10:38 PM

Where's that internet petition to invoke the banhammer?

Posted by: Nepenthe | May 19, 2010 10:42 PM

@SlantedScience 438

It implies that a doctor should be able to enter a woman the day before her due date and chop the embryo up with impunity and moral righteousness.

Huh. Where did the woman go in this statement? You posit the woman involved here as an object to be "entered" by her doctor, not an actor who might have some ideas about what she would like to have happen to her body. This statement is ridiculous because what this doctor would be doing is already considered illegal and morally repugnant: performing a medical procedure without consent.

If consent is given, if the pregnant woman, who you seem to regard only as an incubator in this situation, then I see nothing wrong with this situation. Although in general, these procedures are called cesarean sections, since it would be nigh impossible to find a physician who would be willing to perform such a late term abortion.

Commenters have accused me of this, but my examples are as nothing beside the people who have been dredging the swamps of womanhood to diminish my arguments.

Well gosh, I'm sorry that my actual personal experience of being raped interferes with your intellectual arguments. We stupid ladies should have known better than to "dredge the swamps of womanhood" with are silly arguments about how we are people and our emotions and experiences matter. We should have had a nice rational, distanced and intellectual conversation about what, for many of us, was the worst experience we could ever fucking imagine.

This is why your comments are misogynistic. You regard women as unimportant objects in the realm of reproductive rights and you demean women's emotions and experience as bog slime. This is true regardless of whether commenters here jump upon you or no.

Posted by: Shala | May 19, 2010 10:44 PM

If I ever do have to go out after dark, they are most definitely with me.

"Release the hounds." *Mr. Burns*

I'm glad NoR beat me to the punch on ripping SlantedScience a new slant. Trolling in this kind of thread takes a special kind of wickedness.

How can you even sleep at night, SlantedScience? Do you have no conscience?

Posted by: badgersdaughter | May 19, 2010 10:56 PM

ss@438:

Dredge the swamps of womanhood. Nice. Womanhood is a swamp? If it is one, it's a formerly fertile and lovely land drowned and stinking under the spit and piss of the contempt of millions of emotional vandals just like you.

chgo_liz@436:

I never thought of it that way. It explains a lot about how the women in my family react to things. My grandmother is terribly suspicious and cold, but if you are on the short list of people she truly cares for, her real self comes out and she is a fierce advocate, a boundlessly understanding source of support, wise and good and sweet. I know she's been through more hell than she'll ever tell me. She found a good man later in life, when she was a single mother with two teenage kids. My step-grandfather Bob Weber was, and is, her and my paradigm for what a truly good man is and does, but I've never met anyone like that again.

Posted by: Kliwon | May 19, 2010 11:00 PM

Slanted Science, here is a calm, unemotional response. Take the hint and fuck off!

Posted by: Aquaria | May 19, 2010 11:03 PM

SStroll, are you fucking for real? Women who dare to speak out about the horrors they've faced are the swamp of womanhood?

I've had enough of this shitstain.

Die fucker.

Posted by: Patricia, OM | May 19, 2010 11:10 PM

Jebus but we have had enough of these christian assclams.

Posted by: alysonmiers | May 19, 2010 11:15 PM

Please, no more with the emotional arguments. Commenters have accused me of this, but my examples are as nothing beside the people who have been dredging the swamps of womanhood to diminish my arguments.

*drops the rolling pin*

If you ever see a 30ish, bespectacled redhead with weird taste in sweaters nearby on the street, I fucking dare you to say anything like what you said above. Knitting needles can be used as deadly weapons and I can make it look like self-defense. Go ahead and say that to someone's face, you ass-sniffing cum-stain. See what happens.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 19, 2010 11:18 PM

AnthonyK:

Luckily, I think I've always understood that. At least I've never denied a friend, of whatever sex or age, the right to feel safe going anywhere

And that's appreciated. Probably more than you'll ever know.

Aquaria:

I'll be damned if I'll let the monsters win by giving up my freedom.

I haven't given up my freedom. I often walk at night - with my dogs. I live in a very safe place now, probably the safest I've ever lived. I also live in an isolated place and it doesn't pay to be stupid.

Posted by: Shala | May 19, 2010 11:21 PM

SlantedScience, if womanhood is a swamp, let that be the swamp that taps itself for a black mana that pays for a dark ritual used to pay for another dark ritual which turns into a hatred spell, paying 19 life to make a 20/20 raging goblin that kills you instantly.

Or in non-Magic: The Gathering terms, please go away. Now.

Posted by: Usagichan | May 19, 2010 11:21 PM

Ah, I see Slanty-Troll, having tried and failed to derail the thread earlier, comes back in even more stomach-churning form to scream for attention. Because all these incubators dragging up emotion from the swamp of womanhood, well won't anyone think of the babies **faints clutching pearls***

Well, SS you can take your intellectually vapid morally bankrupt trolling and...

...sideways ...with the obligatory sharp implement/ optical instrument.

To the real people who shared some truly horrific experiences and still show so much humanity and grace - you have my admiration and gratitude for sharing. Ah, humanity - now that's something I could have faith in!

Posted by: badgersdaughter | May 19, 2010 11:24 PM

Yeah, Ichthyic, why don't we analyze that little statement of his a moment? how many ways is it wrong?

"Womanhood," because he can't wrap his pea brain around the fact that men are raped also. Because obviously if a man is degraded by rape, it's just like turning him into a woman.

"Swamps" because it's dark and ugly and hot and stinky and uncivilized, unlike the bright shiny leaders of civilization whose gender he shares.

And "dredging" because we have to really work hard to come up with the filth with which we roil the placid, limpid waters of decency.

PZ, for fuck's sake get rid of this assclown.

Posted by: Ichthyic | May 19, 2010 11:29 PM

...seriously, was he TRYING to see if he could actually come up with a creepier statement than the one that started this thread??

'cause in my mind, he's come pretty close.

Posted by: Patricia, OM | May 19, 2010 11:30 PM

alysonmiers - See what happens.

Go ahead, say it to my face you ass-sniffing cum-stain...

Yep.

Posted by: SlantedScience | May 19, 2010 11:33 PM

So I lied. I came back. What do I find? A bunch of idiots misreading and misquoting my words.

Obviously, because this is Pharyngula. It's what you do.

My words were: "Please, no more with the emotional arguments. Commenters have accused me of this, but my examples are as nothing beside the people who have been dredging the swamps of womanhood to diminish my arguments."

The swamp thing was a...well, I don't know what the vocabularistic term is. Whatever.

Point is, people have taken my words as being associated with the rape/abortion/religion subject matter of the original story. I've explained clearly, a couple of times, that I have nothing to say about rape. Nothing.

My comments have been solely concerned with abortion and its profligate, state-sanctioned use in the US and other countries.

If you have anything of worth to add to the debate on abortion, then please comment further.

If you just want to make out that I'm somehow commenting on rape, women, or some other personal obsession, then please...well, I dunno, See a psychiatrist?

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | May 19, 2010 11:38 PM

So I lied.

My comments have been solely concerned with abortion and its profligate, state-sanctioned use in the US and other countries.

See a psychiatrist?!

Posted by: SlantedScience | May 19, 2010 11:42 PM

Again, my friends: I am off to bed. May you sleep well and gain some tolerance as you do so.

Because, for sure, your lack of that resource is becoming tiresome.

Posted by: Ichthyic | May 19, 2010 11:44 PM

So I lied. I came back.

BAN

-FUCKING-

HAMMER!!

Posted by: leepicton | May 19, 2010 11:46 PM

I vote for the banhammer for the sanctimonious SS.

Posted by: Usagichan | May 19, 2010 11:49 PM

Slanty-Troll

The swamp thing was a...well, I don't know what the vocabularistic term is. Whatever.

I think the term you are looking for is 'Freudian-slip'.

My comments have been solely concerned with abortion and its profligate, state-sanctioned use in the US and other countries.

In a thread the subject of which is rape, which is full of the impact of that ugly and violent act - so you were thinking only of those myriad abortions that are given to women in stable situations purely for their convenience - seriously, what planet are you from?

Go Away - you pollute this place!

Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier | May 19, 2010 11:53 PM

SlantedScience,

Please, no more with the emotional arguments. Commenters have accused me of this, but my examples are as nothing beside the people who have been dredging the swamps of womanhood to diminish my arguments. Really, folks: argument by emotion should be the preserve of the religious.

Apparently SS took the title of this post as a challenge.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | May 20, 2010 12:02 AM

SlantedScience StupidShithead wrote:

Because, for sure, your lack of that resource is becoming tiresome.

I could try to list those qualities that you lack, but it'd take too long. Instead, here's a list of the worthwhile qualities you do appear to possess:
.
.
.
Nope, I can't think of one.

As that is the case, feel free to go fuck yourself sideways with a rusty chainsaw, you stupid fucking clown shoe. There isn't another ignorant, pathetic cumstain more deserving of being banned than you, and when PZ puts you in the dungeon I'll laugh with joy.

Posted by: Ichthyic | May 20, 2010 12:09 AM

So it's stupid to go out at night without dogs?

I don't think that was what was meant.

Posted by: Stanton | May 20, 2010 12:19 AM

So, are we to assume that "SlantedScience" has no, and feels no reason to give sympathy or comfort to rape victims, and feels that abortion is far more heinous than being raped, or allowing a pregnant woman or girl to die from a potentially fatal condition caused by or being aggravated by pregnancy?

Are we to assume that "SlantedScience" is upset by the fact that a 9 year old rape victim from Brazil had an abortion because she would most likely die if she were to have attempted to carry her twins to full term?

Or, are we to assume that "SlantedScience"'s comment about "swamp of womanhood" that he does not consider women, in general, to be human?

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 20, 2010 12:31 AM

Trey Cheotomy:

SS is a troll and this isn't the first fucking time he's brought up the same stupid arguments/questions. He's repeatedly derailed threads with this crap.

Posted by: Stanton | May 20, 2010 12:35 AM

SlantedScience sounds suspiciously like the banned troll Bilbo, what with the way he wanks off on blaming other people for the fact that he's a sanctimonious asshole of a troll who deliberately baits people with his assholery.

Posted by: Aquaria | May 20, 2010 12:48 AM

I'm 52 with a fucked up back, so running fast, vaulting and climbing aren't things in my arsenal anymore.

Oh, honey, tell me about it. It was bad enough not being strong to begin with, but now so much of it is breaking down.

Posted by: crazysquid | May 20, 2010 1:03 AM

I, I am beyond words. I can not express myself in words to describe this persons comment.
I am not sure as to the gender of the author, but either way, this person needs help. She almost sounds like the mother in the original movie "Carrie".
I would not call myself a Christian nor would I express myself as an atheist. My view on abortion has nothing to do with religion, just choice. I am a male, and I could not imagine the suffering and torment, not to mention the shear terror that a woman would go through if raped. The feeling of helplessness and violation she would experience would be enough not to want to remember the atrocious event.
What sounds like the idiotic ramblings of Zealot is probably the suppression of a molested female child who has grown up in a incestuous home, and is now repressing the guilt by belittling such a crime.
If the author is a male, then he is possibly repressing a strong sexual fantasy to rape and dominate a female, but has turned to his misguided scriptures to suppress the feeling. he has tried to reach out to the masses, hoping to vilify his perverse fetish in hopes that someone will agree with him and give him a possible imagined permission to carry out his fantasy, possibly on his own daughter, or a young family member or a child that his children know. Either way, she? needs therapy, and he? needs to be on an registered sex offender watch list before it's too late and he uses his God to commit a heinous act against a female. he also beats his wife and justifies her pain he inflicts because the pain he inflicts on her, she can endure because she is a "Strong Christian" woman, and the pain she suffers at his hands is nothing compared to what the "Lord" suffered on the cross.
Just Thinking.

Posted by: Ichthyic | May 20, 2010 1:08 AM

I am not sure as to the gender of the author

it's a "he", you can find out by following the link to see the rest of their commentary.

Posted by: suzieQ | May 20, 2010 1:28 AM

Well I am an ex christian who has seen the light. I have also been raped. This rape did not end in a pregnancy. You don't ever get "over" a rape, it stays with you, haunts you and can destroy your life. I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't raped up the ass so I don't know that the pain is comparable.

I am a prochoice proud atheist.

Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier | May 20, 2010 1:46 AM

http://www.iamanatheist.com/blog/2010/05/13/rape-not-so-bad-2/

It makes no sense for it to be a sin for a man to rape his wife since a man can’t rape his wife. It’s just not logical, like stealing your own car or pocking your own pocket.

Maybe you got raped and enjoy harping on it. Well the whole world doesn’t revolve around you. Get over it, clear your head and come to God.

Wow....

Posted by: ashleyfmiller | May 20, 2010 2:33 AM

@SS

I'm just going to quote Kemist because it's how I feel. You can't actually take the argument away from rape, because the two are related. Either a woman has the right to protect her own body or she doesn't.

I don't give a rat's ass about how a woman gets pregnant - if she doesn't want it, it's her right to get rid of it, period.

My argument is associated risk. The only moral way to have someone else take risks for you is by having their informed consent. Pregnancy always presents risks of disability and death. If a woman agrees to take the risks, fine. But you can't force her if you call yourself a moral person.

Posted by: ansley7456 | May 20, 2010 2:47 AM

This actually makes me sad for him. If he honestly thinks this way...its just terrifying that he is comparing rape to a divorce. Rape is violent and you can never get what they took bad and divorce you can get remarried. And furthermore....why would you kill someone who is already alive after a divorece....comparing a 7 year ld to a fetus is not a good one...

Posted by: Sidhartha | May 20, 2010 2:57 AM

I honestly think all of you are looking at what this man says very narrow minded and blind almost.

i do think his wording is most wrong and trying to make rape sound not so bad is just horrible to say..

but i do think rape should never be the excuse to abort someone inside you...

im not a pro life fanatic... but i do believe unless you need to abort because of life threatening situations or your living in a 3rd world country in poverty, you should be selfless enough to take 9 months out of your life to let someone else have there's.

there is no selfless reason to stop life, your given the power and responsibility make it... and people throw it away like it means nothing or because there just not ready, or its just not "there" plan.

stop having sex if you cant handle 9 months of labor... "all play and no work makes sally an mere toy".

also, to all the women who are raped... im sorry there's a gloomy sick side to this world... but there is... its not fair and for some to have a child by rape inside of you, well this is where you can decide if its still about you, or is it now about the life inside you?

its so much easier to say "there's no way I can bare this thing inside of me" "no one can understand what im going through".

It takes a lot more courage to say "Well this is what happened, so im going to make the best of things and give someone else a chance to see existence no matter how bleak it may be". "I am not going to let my emotions make me irrational and make selfish choices".

i expect negative responds to this, which is fine, it only shows me what i already know and have seen from narrow minded blind people who don't want to see anything through the eyes of anyone's but there own.

show me some rational response, not a bunch of haters ganging up on the internet.

Posted by: Kagato | May 20, 2010 3:17 AM

i expect negative responds to this, which is fine, it only shows me what i already know and have seen from narrow minded blind people who don't want to see anything through the eyes of anyone's but there own.

"Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong, so disagreeing with me only proves how wrong you are."

show me some rational response

You wouldn't recognise it if you saw it.

Posted by: Kliwon | May 20, 2010 3:23 AM

Sidharta, the rational response is that it is a woman's body. She, and only she gets to decide what happens to it.
Your outlook is the "you're here to be an incubator, live with it" one. I do believe that medical science helped cure that problems back in the 1960's when the contraceptive pill was developed.
If you're female (doubtful), you have a rather poor opinion of your place in this world. If you are male (like me), your opinion has been duly noted and will be ignored.
Oh, by the way, we won't be ganging up on the Internet, most of us appear to quite like it.

Posted by: Usagichan | May 20, 2010 3:33 AM

#506

im not a pro life fanatic...

Yes I am...

but i do believe unless you need to abort because of life threatening situations or your living in a 3rd world country in poverty, you should be selfless enough to take 9 months out of your life to let someone else have there's.

See?

stop having sex if you cant handle 9 months of labor

After all, its all about making babies for God isn't it?

or is it now about the life inside you?

Or could it be possible that a woman isn't a baby incubating machine, and has rights and needs beyond the mechanics of her body, especially where events have been forced upon her.

Read through the thread - try to understand, women are people, not baby carrying machines. If we (society) don't give them the help, support and choice they need for healthy emotional and social existence, what sort of screwed up world are these 'precious' new lives going to be thrown into!

Seems to me its another case of the religious being more concerned with what happens before birth and after death than real, honest caring, (which is actually far more difficult).

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | May 20, 2010 4:05 AM

SlantedScience,

Very much like the religious websites, regular commenters act like a kind of mindpolice force: everybody's welcome, but if they start expressing views contrary to ours, we will jump on them with batons. Have a look at the video of muslim religious police actions for a hint of how you are, really, behaving.

That's just absurd hyperbole, and you know it. How the fuck is anyone here behaving like "Muslim religious police"? Pray tell, have you been subjected to violence or coercion because of anything you've posted on Pharyngula? I rather suspect not. Rather, all that has happened is that you posted your opinion on a webpage, and other people disagreed with it. No one has "jumped on you with a baton". Stop playing the martyr.

Having your opinions criticised on a web forum is not equivalent to physical violence. Not even close. I find it hard to believe that you're enough of a fool to actually make this kind of silly comparison. And it's more than a little offensive to the victims of the brutality of actual repressive regimes.

Again, I don't feel anybody has yet adequately answered the question: "At what point between zygote and birth does a baby/embryo/thing cease to be killable? As I said, the morning-after pill is a wonderful invention; it allows women to gain more control over their pregnancies. At this point, only a lunatic would argut that they are killing a person. I'm really interested in the developmental point at which this thing becomes a baby. Many of you shouted "birth!", but I think that this is ludicrous. It implies that a doctor should be able to enter a woman the day before her due date and chop the embryo up with impunity and moral righteousness.

The issue is not really "when the foetus becomes a baby", because that's a largely unanswerable and meaningless question. Rather, the issue is one of the woman's bodily autonomy. Bodily autonomy is something that the law ordinarily protects; just as we do not wish the state to force people to donate surplus organs without their consent, even to save someone else's life, we should not, by the same token, wish the state to force a woman to bear a child without her consent. This applies a fortiori if she is a victim of rape, and has had her bodily autonomy violated and been forced to bear a child against her will: in such circumstances, forcing her to give birth essentially amounts to enslavement.

Since there is no magic bright line as to "when the foetus becomes a baby", most jurisdictions' laws draw a pragmatic line at or around the point of viability (i.e. when the foetus can survive independently outside the womb). People can disagree about whether this is right or not. But fundamentally, the whole "when does it become a baby?" thing is a red herring, because it's an unanswerable question. The real relevant question is one of the proper extent of bodily autonomy, and a woman's right to control her own body.

Posted by: Who Cares | May 20, 2010 4:47 AM

@Aquaria(#483):
I don't know your situation so I do not know if the suggestion that follows is remotely possible.
Learn parts of Muay Thai/kick boxing, jujutsu (if possible instead of judo), aikijutsu (if possible instead of aikido).
None require a big body or being strong and they complement each other. Muay Thai is good for close in fighting for when you are grappled from the front. Judo/jujutsu can help you get people of your back, literally. And aikido/aikijutsu is good for wrecking arms of would be grapplers.

If you can go for the jutsu variants instead of the do variants. For example with aikido the basic you learn is grab an outstretched arm and used that arm as a lever to step around the attacker while he is stumbling behind you due to added momentum. With aikijutsu you use his and your momemtum to push the elbow beyond the locking position while at the same time stepping in to ensure a stumble which should allow you to twist the arm in such a way that there is a very good chance at a dislocated shoulder. Even if you don't stretch, tear or dislocate anything the pain inflicted should result in your attacker being incapacitated enough that a swift knee (if standing)/boot (if on the ground) in the groin should take him out of the picture long enough for you to get away.

@Slanted Science:
You don't understand that this is a highly emotional subject, you can't ignore that because it interferes with your argument that the worst that happened is abuse of someone elses property (their body) and that the effects of that are temporary. And yes that is basically your 'argument' against abortion after a rape.

I didn't dredge the swamps of womanhood since I used my own experience as a man. And I am, to put it bluntly, lucky that I am a man. I won't ever have to worry about being dragged into a bush by someone with a sociopathic sense of entitlement to my body and then (possibly) murdered to prevent capture of the psycho.

@Anyone still following this thread:
The people who can speak out about this are on a road of recovery (even if the experience will keep having an impact the rest of our lives). We've breached a fairly important barrier that we can think about it without wanting to curl up in a fetal position trying to shutout the rest of the world and tell others about what happened.
But there are an unknown amount of people out there who can't get to that point or are not there yet. Who recoil from even a friendly pat on the shoulder, just can't go out in the dark and/or the general location where the assault happened. Who don't have a social life (or a miserable one). Who can't even comprehend anymore that they are in a rotten situation because they are so used to it.
It is almost impossible to reach out to these people because due to the way they (try to) live it is unoticable that they got raped.
Please go out and create awareness that rape is not something that can be tolerated or should be a suffering to be accepted /done in silence.

Posted by: ashleyalexandria | May 20, 2010 5:12 AM

I made an account to this website I may never see again just to say.

WHAT THE HECK!

Me, myself, being a rape victim was just utterly shocked by this woman's comments. "you get over it" It has been 13years and I still have nightmares. I myself, am a Christian woman, and I myself would NEVER have an abortion, but I do believe there are many circumstances where an abortion is OK.

I don't know. I'm just shocked. I hate how some people claim to be Christians then go bash on others. Its not a Christian thing to do. I don't know. I'm just in utter shock. :/

Very disappointed in how some people can be.

Posted by: Bernard Bumner | May 20, 2010 6:06 AM

I'm not sure what kind of psychology it takes to troll a thread like this. That is just appalling.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 20, 2010 7:45 AM

As such, I think it's really counter-productive to have a gang of regulars who jump upon anyone not sharing their own POV. Very much like the religious websites, regular commenters act like a kind of mindpolice force: everybody's welcome, but if they start expressing views contrary to ours, we will jump on them with batons. Have a look at the video of muslim religious police actions for a hint of how you are, really, behaving.

You, like many before you who come here with disgusting, idiotic, stupid, unsupportable, etc.. arguments immediately fall to the claim of "Oh you guys are close minded and attack anyone who doesn't agree with you".

Well there are opinions that are so vile and disgusting or so stupid that they deserve to be attacked.

You have found some of these arguments / opnions and "the regulars" are calling you out on it.

It is possible to hold opinions that are so stupid, disgusting, insensitive and moronic that a large group of people will agree they are all of the above.

You've managed to hold some of those opinions.

Congratulations.

So take your "poor oh woe is me I'm being persecuted by people who don't agree with me be cause they are telling me they don't", and shove it sideways up your ass.

Again, my friends: I am off to bed. May you sleep well and gain some tolerance as you do so.

tolerance ≠ respect

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | May 20, 2010 8:31 AM

"Again, my friends: I am off to bed. May you sleep well and gain some tolerance as you do so.

Because, for sure, your lack of that resource is becoming tiresome."

No, There are some things for which there is no justification for tolerance, respect or negotiations. There are some things to which there is no compromise, not even in face of Armageddon. You've crossed that line.

"I honestly think all of you are looking at what this man says very narrow minded and blind almost.

i do think his wording is most wrong and trying to make rape sound not so bad is just horrible to say..

but i do think rape should never be the excuse to abort someone inside you...

im not a pro life fanatic... but i do believe unless you need to abort because of life threatening situations or your living in a 3rd world country in poverty, you should be selfless enough to take 9 months out of your life to let someone else have there's."

Here is another one...and I am trying to summon the patience of a GOD not to curse out this failed abortion.

Imagine that you are shot in the chest. Without medical treatment there is a good chance that you will bleed out if we don't remove the bullet...however you're a rare blood type and we have 5 patients in the hospital on the waiting list for organs. You will tell me that we should not intervene to stop the consequences of violent crime so we can use you as an organ bank?

For all this "humanism doesn't let humans be people since they see us all just as meat machines" you really fucking argue that women are just biological machinery. Tell you what, think how the person aborted feels about it. They don't. No mind is developed, there is no possibility to form an opinion or awareness. They're not harmed because as non-existent potential persons they have nothing yet to loose.

Posted by: Endor | May 20, 2010 9:07 AM

The answer for psychotic misogynists like SS is yes, yes on both accounts.

He's made it perfectly clear that he hates women, doesn't give a damn what happens to them and that anything they say is just a useless emotional argument (you know, cuz his sociopathic lack of empathy is totally the right lens through which to view this issue), so yeah - he doesn't care if women die. And a female child is still female so who cares what happens to her either.

He'd likely only cares about male fetuses being aborted.

Posted by: Samantha | May 20, 2010 9:39 AM

Sidharta:

A lot of us would love to see the only abortions be ones where it's a choice between foetus and mother. However, we would like this to be because the only pregnancies are wanted ones, not because women are forced to carry their babies. Unfortunately, birth control is not the easiest thing to obtain and most types either have many negative side effects (the Pill) or become very expensive if you have sex more than once a day and aren't terribly reliable or pleasant (condoms). Until we come up with a good means of cheap, easy, (relatively) side-effect free and readily available birth control and educate everyone it its use, we're not helping women avoid having to go through a medical procedure with potential risks and side-effects.

Abortion is one of those cases where you can very easily have a "slippery slope". It's easy to say "Yeah, only medically necessary abortions should be performed", but that's more open than you think. Medically necessary for whom? Aborting the foetus at risk of losing both foetus and mother seems logical to pretty much everyone (RCC aside), but what about aborting a foetus with a known medical condition that will cause it to suffer for a short time (days? months? years?) after birth before dying? How about a foetus with a condition that will lead to it being little more than a vegetable for its entire life? Now we get more grey, because the next step is foetuses with degenerative genetic illnesses or illnesses that cause severe mental retardation. Do you allow them to be aborted, knowing they will never live a full life and the parents aren't able to handle them? Some of these cases likely include foetuses damaged by mothers who drink, smoke or do drugs. Is there a difference if the foetus is damaged by the mother rather than by chance and genetics?

I can go one from there, but I think you get the point. There are so many scenarios for why a woman could want an abortion and the law can't decide each one individually. A rape victim forced to carry the product of that rape could seriously damage the foetus because of her stress, not to mention the fact that she might well turn to drinking or doing drugs as a method of coping. Again, do we allow her to abort or force her to carry and have a child with FAS? If we allow abortion in cases of rape, how do we determine what "counts" as rape and whether it's "real" or not? Do we demand convictions of the accused rapist before allowing abortion? Do we just cage all pregnant rape victims up to ensure they don't damage their foetuses? Do we make a distinction between someone who was using all available methods of birth control and had a freak pregnancy and someone who didn't try or do we just force both to carry? Do we draw the line for people of various ages, allowing rape victims under a certain age to abort? The questions can go on even further.

Really, abortion is an all or nothing game. Either you allow all abortions or you allow none. If you allow all, there will indeed be people treating it carelessly, but they will at least not be treating a child that way. If you ban it, you have almost as many performed, just in secret and at risk to the mother and you will have mothers dying because they can't abort the foetus that is killing them and babies dying because the woman that was forced to carry them can't care for them on top of that. I choose to accept that some people will treat abortion like it means nothing and focus on preventing abortions long before they're even a consideration: by donating time and money to family planning clinics who distribute birth control, by campaigning for government funding of birth control and by doing my best to push the idea of research into better birth control methods. I'm pro-choice in that I want women to have the choice, but I still want to help them so they never have to make the choice. If you really want to be "anti-abortion", that's the only way I've seen that you can do it without also being anti-woman.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | May 20, 2010 10:33 AM

I'm depressed, have tried to commit suicide several times before and used to cut myself.

We're lucky to have you here then.

Seriously.

I reached a point of desperation, but I'm a strange person. I'm a natural big risk taker, inherently competitive, and prone to spontaneous actions. I will try ANYTHING TO WIN.

It took a lot of abuse, all the way through childhood and into adulthood, to wear my psychotic optimism down.

So....

I called a man I didn't know (I had met him one time at a party) from the phone book and got him to make a date with me instead of killing myself the night I had planned for my suicide. I had myself all ready, took a picture of myself on one of those disposable cameras, sat down on my bed and thought "Wait... let's call a total stranger instead. What's the worst that could happen? I die? lol"

That action had consequences of its own I guess, although not from him. He turned out to be the person who helped me get away from my abusive bf.

Even I look back at that one and think... really? I mean, how did I not scare him? I must have managed to hide my emotions quite well. Well that and being very vague about how I acquired his number.

Posted by: naddyfive | May 20, 2010 12:51 PM

"teased from the womb"

Who IS this cretin?

Teased from the womb? Try autonomically ripping the camel through the eye of the needle.

I call Poe. There's no way any human being on earth would use that phrase seriously. No fucking way. This has to be some kind of sickos idea of a funny.

Who the hell would say that with a straight face?

I always knew Christians and anti-choicers were, probably 95% bigots, assholes, or worse, but now I'm just sick at the thought that I have to share the universe with them. Given how delightful their avatars are.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | May 20, 2010 1:44 PM

If you have anything of worth to add to the debate on abortion, then please comment further.

No point in banning him. He's insignificant.

I find his attempt to assert control here funny. No one listens to him. We talk about what we want to and he can't do anything but whine.

And feel victimized because no one cares to listen to his inane babble.

Posted by: laphantoms | May 20, 2010 2:58 PM

It's not possible to enlighten Denialists until they acknowledge that the phenomenon of denial is controlling their lives.

Denialism: How Irrational Thinking Hinders Scientific Progress, Harms the Planet, and Threatens Our Lives

Posted by: jeffpayne | May 20, 2010 5:00 PM

Oh c'mon y'all. The point may have been in-artfully stated but it was strong on the merits from a philosophical perspective.

Rape, which is very very very bad and leaves tremendous scarring, happens to an innocent victim. That victim may not feel appreciably better, and in fact would, in all likelihood, feel much worse becoming a perpetrator of murder on another innocent victim, in this case their own child.

As to the definition of murder it is the taking of human life, so, at least philosophically, all of your hate speech and chest pounding is much ado about nothing.

Just a little over a hundred years ago it was legal for one man to own another in the U.S., but it was never right. Legalizing abortion does not make it right either. Theists know that there are higher laws and this poster was simply trying to explain that.

He/she did a pretty good job, but, in the process, left an unfortunate opening for verbal jabs. In my opinion the posts which took such jabs are creepier than the original post.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 20, 2010 5:25 PM

jeffpayne:

That victim may not feel appreciably better, and in fact would, in all likelihood, feel much worse becoming a perpetrator of murder on another innocent victim, in this case their own child.

You'd be wrong, dipshit. If you're so convinced this is so, why don't you relate the story or your rape and consequent pregnancy? What's that, haven't been raped? Haven't been pregnant?

Theists know that there are higher laws and this poster was simply trying to explain that.

Theists don't know jack shit. They have an imaginary psycho sky dad that provides them justification for holding inhumane views and acting inhumanely towards others. There is no higher law.

Posted by: D.N. | May 20, 2010 5:36 PM

@jeffpayne

As to the definition of murder it is the taking of human life, so, at least philosophically, all of your hate speech and chest pounding is much ado about nothing.

No it isn't, typical fundie rape apologist. Are you 'murdering' someone acting out of self defense. Are you 'murdering' someone when you kill an enemy in war. Certainly not, and more importantly not by U.S. legal definition either. Stop pretending that we all live in your fundie wet dream and and that when someone has an abortion they are murdering their bayyyybeeees.

Just a little over a hundred years ago it was legal for one man to own another in the U.S., but it was never right. Legalizing abortion does not make it right either. Theists know that there are higher laws and this poster was simply trying to explain that.

Typical fundie false equivalence of slavery to abortion. This is an slap in the face to african-americans and their descendants. If you were a slave for a fucking day, one fucking day you would happily VOLUNTEER to do those abortions that you think are murder.

Rape, which is very very very bad and leaves tremendous scarring, happens to an innocent victim. That victim may not feel appreciably better, and in fact would, in all likelihood, feel much worse becoming a perpetrator of murder on another innocent victim, in this case their own child.

Obviously you have no experience dealing with rape victims. As if the rape wasn't a complete mind fuck lets just mess with this persons well being a little more and make them sit through 9 months of fucking torture, and hope they don't commit suicide.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | May 20, 2010 5:37 PM

Legalizing abortion does not make it right either.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | May 20, 2010 5:43 PM

Theists know that there are higher laws

Posted by: Kliwon | May 20, 2010 5:48 PM

Oh c'mon y'all. The point may have been in-artfully stated but it was strong on the merits from a philosophical perspective.

Posted by: Cosmic Snark | May 20, 2010 6:20 PM

On the discussion boards I frequent this type of lunatic rantings are not uncommon. I'm so glad I left this disgusting religion.

Posted by: enishmarati | May 20, 2010 6:23 PM

"I'm not belittling it but think about it, no amount of suffering from rape is as great as the suffering our Lord suffered on the cross for our sins."

I like how he conveniently forgets that Jesus volunteered to "die for us" whereas rape victims by definition don't. And not to make assumptions or anything but it seems like knowing that your death is going to save souls or whatever would make it easier to deal with.

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/lQ0vmSQi2oc43jhbWEojaah.MW_oah_sNNY-#99573 | May 20, 2010 6:38 PM

Sad. Very, very sad. Nauseatingly sad.
The babble and koran are full of rape and other grizzly, heinous crimes against women. I wonder what the statistics are on xtian rapists? Hummmmm... I mean besides the clergy.

Posted by: jeffpayne | May 20, 2010 6:55 PM

D.N. wrote:

"Are you 'murdering' someone acting out of self defense. Are you 'murdering' someone when you kill an enemy in war." (sic)

The problem with your assertion is that further clarification would add the word "innocent" to the definition of murder, thus making murder the taking of innocent human life. The problem with this definition, although universally accepted for hundreds of years in western civilization, is that it further strengthens my case, while dramatically weakening yours.

As for equivalency of slavery to abortion, you may pick any number of old customs and laws that sanctioned behavior that we now consider inappropriate. I never made them equivalent, except to point out that whether or not something is legal or not is not the acid test of whether it is moral or appropriate. For you to claim I made more of it, create that straw man and then beat it up, proves nothing but your own inability to construct a lucid argument.

On another note:

Ichthyic, Can you point out the flaw in my case? I'm sure it wasn't presented perfectly, but your assertion doesn't weaken it, whereas there may be a legitimate argument or two that would. In fact, being imperfect myself, I'm sure there are a number of weaknesses. The way to defeat it, however, is with some argumentative counter-punching, not a mere assertion. At least that's how it's usually supposed to be done.

Posted by: D.N. | May 20, 2010 7:30 PM

@jeffpayne

The problem with your assertion is that further clarification would add the word "innocent" to the definition of murder, thus making murder the taking of innocent human life.

You still haven't proven that a fetus is 'innocent' (undefinable here) or that it can be considered 'life' in a legal or moral sense. And its a good thing that it isn't too. If you think that a fetus is a person under the law, than any woman who miscarries by tripping and falling over etc. is guilty of manslaughter. And that any pregnant woman who does not eat adequate meals is guilty of reckless endangerment. After all, they are endangering "innocent life" in your fucked up worldview.

As for equivalency of slavery to abortion, you may pick any number of old customs and laws that sanctioned behavior that we now consider inappropriate. I never made them equivalent, except to point out that whether or not something is legal or not is not the acid test of whether it is moral or appropriate.

Correct. Something that is legal may not by be morally appropriate to YOU. There are many things that are morally questionable to some people but are still LEGAL. For example we could argue that fat people should not have to be treated at the hospital. We may not LIKE it when fat people are getting medical treatment after all its their fault they are fat, but fat people deserve the same medical treatment as everyone else.

A question for you jeffpayne because you seem to think the world is black and white and that every embryo is a fucking baybeeee. You can save 50000 petri dishes of embryos (50000 embryos) OR (mutually exclusive - no waffling or tricks or mitigating circumstances allowed) one 5 year old normal child. They are both about to be incinerated but you only have time to choose one. Which one do you choose. If you choose the petri dishes you are a fucking nut. plain and simple

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | May 20, 2010 8:22 PM

An embryo is not a child.
An embryo is not a child.
An embryo is not a child.

How many times does this need to be said?

JeffPayne, tell me, seriously. Would you rather save a petri dish full of five embryos from a burning building, or a single 5 year-old child?
Five rather than one. Wouldn't you pick the five? Five over one? If they're all equivalent, wouldn't you?

Which do you pick, and why?

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | May 20, 2010 8:47 PM

It isn't innocent. It's malignant.

It doesn't matter if it intended to be there or not. I didn't intend for it to be there.

And now it will hurt me, and take from me, and cause me pain.

It should die.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | May 20, 2010 9:02 PM

Oh yeah, and before you tell me I'm crazy let's just accept that I am.

Crazy.

So now why should my crazy ass be forced to give birth to a rapists baby that I hate and want to kill?

Sounds like a GREAT idea.

I don't speak for anyone else, but as for myself. It's not a good idea. It took me years to get my anger issues under control. Years I wouldn't have had with a small child.

Does that sound like a good situation?

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | May 20, 2010 9:21 PM

If they poofed into existence, I'd be doing time in prison.

Lol. I'm sorry, that's darkly humorous to me.

But yeah, I probably would be in an institution some where myself.

In my fortunate case I've never been pregnant. I'm lucky.

See that's the thing these people don't get. I'm *lucky* despite use of contraception not to be pregnant. And no, in my case, I have never been promiscuous. After the terrible first relationship, I spent 8 years with the next person. The body count here is very very very low.

No matter the cost I have stayed on hormonal birth control out of fear that I might end up pregnant *some how* although it is hard and expensive to do so. There are consequences, but I'm willing to face them.

I do this because I don't know for sure what my plans will be in the future. Otherwise I'd have my tubes seared.

At the same time, despite being on birth control things can and do go wrong.

Now, today, if I got pregnant (hugely unlikely) I have the luxury to consider having a child.

LUXURY.

Let that sink in.

I have money, work, social support, a place where I live. Things I did not have before.

I am stable enough that I could likely handle it. I have a low risk of hurting my child.

Now.

Today.

And today would never have been here for me, not this today anyway, if I had been sentenced to childbirth and maternal enslavement.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 20, 2010 9:46 PM

Ol'Greg:

Lol. I'm sorry, that's darkly humorous to me.

But yeah, I probably would be in an institution some where myself.

In my fortunate case I've never been pregnant. I'm lucky.

It can be humorous, simply because I've never been subjected to a forced pregnancy/birth. If I had been, I'm afraid it would be all too true. There are good reasons I have never had children, prime among them that I have never wanted them. A lot of forced birthers simply don't grok that - they assume "baaaybee magic" would come into play and it would all be sunshine and unicorn farts.

I got pregnant once. On two types of birth control. I had an abortion as soon as I had confirmation. Afterwards, I got an IUD and had myself fixed as soon as possible. Getting an abortion was nothing but a relief to me; it's not like I went around with the attitude of "who cares, I can always abort" though.

And today would never have been here for me, not this today anyway, if I had been sentenced to childbirth and maternal enslavement.

^That right there. Today wouldn't have happened for me either, under those circumstances.

Posted by: Yubal | May 20, 2010 11:48 PM

@ slantedscience

My comments have been solely concerned with abortion and its profligate, state-sanctioned use in the US and other countries.

If you have anything of worth to add to the debate on abortion, then please comment further.

I'd strongly recommended the use of contraceptives to avoid getting into the situation where you have to make the decision weather to have an abortion or not to. Since both of us are male, this is a topic that only affects us logically and morally in the limited number of cases when our genetic material is involved. What ever other pregnancies are in question you and me have to be silent about the particular case. It is a matter of question between the partners, who have to decide if this pregnancy is desired or not, where the female has the last word, for given, obvious, logical reasons.

In any cases, the respective woman is the sole person to make the final decision, I hope with consent or at least support of the responsible male.

Having said that, the consequence for a free legal system would be to endorse the question of abortion to the affected women only. Other terms needed to be clarified would be the financial question, which is more tricky, because it involves more than one person, but asides that there is no further legislation necessary.

So, here you have your "abortion only" response.

Do something with it or ignore me.

Y.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 21, 2010 12:35 AM

Yubal:

It is a horrible experience way too many decent girls and women had to experience in their life. My feelings are with you, ladies.

Thank you, Yubal. The "decent" in your comment should be stricken - that's a value judgment, and it's not needed. It's insulting. A woman who has had an active sex life can be raped, and it is a horrible, traumatic event. A prostitute can be raped, and it's a horrible, traumatic event. Xians think such women don't deserve the "decent" label. Someone deciding a woman doesn't deserve the "decent" label makes it much worse and it's a form of slut shaming.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 21, 2010 12:51 AM

Thank you, Yubal. I think a lot of times, these distinctions simply aren't thought through, rather than being an attempt to discriminate.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | May 21, 2010 7:57 AM

The Author/Creator/Sustainer i

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | May 21, 2010 8:07 AM

"The problem with your assertion is that further clarification would add the word "innocent" to the definition of murder, thus making murder the taking of innocent human life. "

I'm taking a jump and presuming your a christian. Therefore you believe in original sin. Therefore there is no such thing as 'innocent human life'. Funny how you argue that all are sinners when it comes to scarring people into belief and then turn around and argue that children are blameless.

The bible itself encourages the murder of your enemies children. What else could you call the child of your rapist? A Rape victims abortion is 100% justified by old testament text with no New Testament contradicting it.

Posted by: llewelly | May 21, 2010 8:22 AM

jeffpayne | May 21, 2010 7:52 AM:

The Author/Creator/Sustainer is free to write, rewrite and change the narrative. The characters in said narrative are not.

Posted by: jeffpayne | May 21, 2010 8:36 AM

Nerd of Redhead wrote:

"Any other name for an imaginary deity is still an imaginary deity. Parsimony. Still no evidence for any kind of deity presented. What a loser. Evidence, that which separates the delusional from the rational. JP, you are an delusional fool. Which makes your opinions delusional and irrational. Welcome to science."

Once again, I am not making the argument that God exists, although as a Christian and a man of science I am not uncomfortable making it.

I was simply stipulating to one (of many, I suppose) Theistic answers to your query as to why God (imaginary or otherwise) is not guilty of murders in the case of numerous spontaneous abortions and miscarriages.

I don't control threads on Mr. Myer's blog, but I do try to be courteous and professional enough to confine myself to the topic at hand. I do agree that there can be many legitimate permutations thereof and I'm not accusing you of "rabbit chasing," it's just that I've discussed the existence of deity often enough to know that I don't have time, or the inclination to enter that fray on this thread.

On another note: I'm content to let the reader's decide for themselves which of us seems to be responding the most rationally and which, if either, is delusional.

I think we all learn more when we avoid the temptation to feel that there must be a clear cut winner on subjects that have been debated by the finest minds for literally centuries.

Posted by: jeffpayne | May 21, 2010 9:00 AM

llewelly,

Power is only one of many attributes attributed to God by the majority of Theists, and my statement should not be construed to imply that God's power is the only reason, or even the primary reason, that justifies His behavior.

I fear we are chasing our tails. As no one has so far seen fit to wrestle with my original point in any rational way, I will assume it stands, or at the very least does not resonate in any interesting way with this audience.

I'll reiterate it briefly on the way out:

If this post is Mr. Myers' example of the "creepiest Christian comment yet," as his headline states, then He has not been paying much attention.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 21, 2010 9:03 AM

If this post is Mr. Myers' example of the "creepiest Christian comment yet," as his headline states, then He has not been paying much attention.

Or maybe you don't have the capacity to understand why it is.

I'm going to go with that explanation considering your comments.

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | May 21, 2010 9:12 AM

If this post is Mr. Myers' example of the "creepiest Christian comment yet," as his headline states, then He has not been paying much attention.

Please, give us an example of an even creepier christian.

As no one has so far seen fit to wrestle with my original point in any rational way...

So sorry that the women here who have been raped and share their stories here cannot just get over their experiences and give you the "rational" answer you demand. But I have to say this, your believe in the big sky daddy has gotten in the way of you being an empathetic human.

You are a burn bag example for all of us.

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | May 21, 2010 9:19 AM

I am passionate about the fact (not opinion) that far too many young ladies are counseled to have abortions. Far too many of them suffer physical, and emotional damages for the rest of their lives.

I see you insist in treating women as you believe they should be, the carriers of fetuses, as opposed to actually reading what women have written here. This is a very strong indicator of what you think of the experiences of women. And it is not at all flattering for you.

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | May 21, 2010 9:33 AM

jeffpayne, this is for you.

You say you mean well, you don't know what you mean
You fucking ought to stay the hell away
From things you know nothing about

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | May 21, 2010 9:40 AM

"That is a reason to be opposed to the act, as is the fact that the product of conception is a human being. "

No the product of conception may build a human being. BEING being the key word. THINK therefore I am, not have genes and a membrane therefore I am. A woman is a human being. I don't believe your claims of knowing many who are permanently harmed by it. Proof or STFU.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | May 21, 2010 9:42 AM

"As no one has so far seen fit to wrestle with my original point in any rational way... "

You lying liar of lyingness!

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | May 21, 2010 9:53 AM

"I am passionate about the fact (not opinion) that far too many young ladies are counseled to have abortions. Far too many of them suffer physical, and emotional damages for the rest of their lives. "

The word "TOO" implying that there's a level you've deemed unacceptable DOES make this an opinion.

Compare:
He killed many Deer

to

He killed too many deer

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | May 21, 2010 10:06 AM

"I am trying to approach this subject without blinders, and in an open-minded and compassionate way, again your characterization notwithstanding."

No, you are not. You came in with your mind made up and are arguing from that. There's a difference.

"People who love us warn us that there may be unintended consequences for our actions, particularly if those consequences are a possible lifetime of emotional trauma."

Like bringing your rape baby to term and devoting your entire life to raising it?

Posted by: Bernard Bumner | May 21, 2010 10:08 AM

I personally have never disagreed, here or elsewhere, with a woman's right to choose, I just want this most serious decision to be chosen very carefully...

Writing something like that makes you a patronising moron. Do you think women are just flipping coins to decide whether they want an abortion?

I am trying to approach this subject without blinders, and in an open-minded and compassionate way...

But why do you think it is your role to tell women how to think about approaching abortion? Why should they care about your opinion?

Posted by: jeffpayne | May 21, 2010 10:17 AM

Carlie,

No, you cannot back up your statement. At least be honest enough to admit that posting something cited online by a pro-choice group does not constitute proof that you would accept if the shoe was on the other foot. Obviously I can go to James Dobson and "support" my opinion too. I am reasonably certain that "proof" would be roundly condemned here, as it should be. So should yours.

Bernard,

That's up to each woman to decide. They may include my counsel among a broad spectrum they choose to consider, or they may dismiss it, just as they may dismiss or receive counsel from anyone else.

Posted by: jeffpayne | May 21, 2010 10:24 AM

Jessie,

That's one of the problems with committing any thought to mere text. Subtle nuances are missed. My use of the term "young ladies" is only in reference to the clear majority of abortions being performed on women under the age of 45 (duh, child-bearing years). By comparison to me they are indeed "young ladies," a term I use with great respect and admiration, not derision or patronization.

But, to re-iterate for at least the fourth time (but who's counting), YES I support the right to choose.

Posted by: Dianne | May 21, 2010 10:30 AM

The Author/Creator/Sustainer is free to write, rewrite and change the narrative. The characters in said narrative are not.

A friend of mine who is a published author says that her characters change the narrative all the time simply as a consequence of who they are. If you imagine a character who is realistic, you shouldn't be able to change them or their story at will without doing violence to the character and story. So the Author, as well as being a bully, isn't a very good writer if he isn't able to trust his characters and allow them to develop their story as they go.

Posted by: Bernard Bumner | May 21, 2010 10:33 AM

They may include my counsel among a broad spectrum they choose to consider, or they may dismiss it, just as they may dismiss or receive counsel from anyone else.

So when they dismissed you, why did you feel the need to tell them that they weren't giving you a fair hearing?

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | May 21, 2010 10:37 AM

See, jeff, the thing is that you can go look up those papers yourself if you think they are being misrepresented. That's what citations are for! And that's what you're consistently refusing to provide.

Posted by: Dianne | May 21, 2010 10:40 AM

there is a great deal of research to suggest that it (the choice to abort) is a decision that many women never emotionally recover from.

Actually, there's not. At least not in the peer reviewed literature. Most legitimate studies have found that the majority of women experience abortion as a relief and release. Some can have emotional problems afterwards, especially those who have been heavily propogandized about the danger of abortion, but the majority simply don't have any long term consequences, physically or emotionally.

What women don't recover from is giving up a baby for adoption. That is where counseling and serious emotional support are needed.

I'm happy to provide citations to support the above statements if you would like me to. And if your statement comes from a particular piece of research of which I may be unaware I would respectfully request that you give a link or citation as well.

Posted by: Dianne | May 21, 2010 10:46 AM

Obviously I can go to James Dobson and "support" my opinion too. I am reasonably certain that "proof" would be roundly condemned here, as it should be.

Yes, but you don't seem to have bothered to even do that. Where does your hypothesis come from? What support-even from Dobson's site-does it have? Several people have asked without response.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | May 21, 2010 10:48 AM

What I did imply, but never wrote, was that many women may suffer additionally from abortion if they follow the rape by having one.

May =/= do.

Also, citation needed.

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | May 21, 2010 10:55 AM

Aw, the strawman bullshit yet again from the bullshit artist. Listen up, dumb fuck, you are the one who said that women who have an abortion are ending a human life and will feel guilty about it. Call it the straw fetus argument.

And you followed that with the characters cannot rewrite the creator's story bullshit.

So fucking sorry that I am too fucking emotional to react "rationally" to your god soaked assumptions of what constitutes a woman's life.

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | May 21, 2010 11:03 AM

One more thing, jeffpayneintheass, I would rather be a primative who has empathy for the suffering of other people than a condecending asshole like you.

Please, explain how a fetus is a human life as opposed to a potential human. And why a raped woman should carry the fetus to term. And do not pull out the fucking guilt card.

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | May 21, 2010 11:11 AM

Jeffpayneintheass, you are the one being fucking silly. You rather go off about the tone of a woman who uses "Foul Mouth" in her moniker and link to bullshit religious studies instead of answer what Carlie has to say. You are much more impressed by your godly bullshit than by real studies and the real lives of women.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 21, 2010 11:15 AM

Again, I'm not impressed with the he said, she said nature of such citations. I can show you mine and you can show me yours. Ha ha. That sounds like fun in some instances.

Translation:

I'm not concerned with the well established functionality of science and my unfactual biased sources are just as reliable as yours despite being completely unreliable time and time again.

So there

Posted by: jeffpayne | May 21, 2010 11:17 AM

Bernard,

The answer to your question re: equal rights for men and women in an unqualified "yes." I've never written or implied otherwise to my knowledge.

Posted by: Bernard Bumner | May 21, 2010 11:19 AM

Not my question.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 21, 2010 11:29 AM

Jeff, are you seriously claiming that any random Google result has the same level of validity as publications in Science and the Journal of the American Medical Association?

No not random, anti-abortion results. Because you know, they are just as unbiased and have no political motivation that guides their results just like Science and the Journal of the AMA.

Posted by: Endor | May 21, 2010 11:32 AM

"I am passionate about the fact (not opinion) that far too many young ladies are counseled to have abortions."

This is not a fact, this is a blatant lie, resting on your need to support a misogynistic agenda. Some are coerced by abusive people in their sphere of influence, that is true.

"Far too many of them suffer physical, and emotional damages for the rest of their lives."
This is also a blatant lie, easily disproved many times over by actual evidence.

"That is a reason to be opposed to the act, as is the fact that the product of conception is a human being."

When there is coercion to get an abortion, yes that is something to be opposed to. But the mere fact that you place the "produce of conception" about AN ACTUAL HUMAN BEING belies your real motivation – misogyny.

Oh, I know you dress it up in feigned innocence and concern for the "products of conception" not yet born. But, the sum and total of pro-misogyny forced birth arguments are essentially to hell with those products who have been born and born female.

"IN my opinion, that point is only weakened by calling those that disagree with me "losers," and "dumb fucks."

Your concern trolling is noted, but utterly irrelevant. Whining about tone makes you look weak and without a solid argument to offer. Both of which are always true about the pro-misogyny forced birthers.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | May 21, 2010 11:39 AM

JP, in #582 you claim to be a man of science. Any scientist will tell you the difference between peer reviewed scientific journal papers, and idiocy spouted via the web. Peer reviewed papers have a quality control, in that they are following scientific methods or they don't get published, that isn't present with web site postings. Anybody can write anything and post it on the web. Which is why there is so much creationist bullshit out there. The anti-choice folks are also good at their form of bullshit. Anything to justify shoving their religion down everybodies throats.