Pharyngula

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 25, 2010 3:07 PM

Isn't that technically assault?

Posted by: Zeno | May 25, 2010 3:08 PM

I don't get it. What is a Baptist minister's wife doing with holy water? That's a Roman Catholic sacramental that is normally disdained by Protestants, but I guess they think it works anyway. I mean, we've all seen Buffy, right?

Sheesh.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | May 25, 2010 3:09 PM

If someone purposely splashed water, holy or secular, on me because of a stupid cultural reason, I'd make a complaint to the cops and present the splasher with a dry-cleaning bill.

Posted by: Randomfactor | May 25, 2010 3:10 PM

*NOW* you see the importance of Towel Day!

Posted by: Louis | May 25, 2010 3:14 PM

I'm particularly terrified of large donations of cash and beautiful women performing oral sex upon my person.

Just FYI. You know, if there's any christians out there who want to really scare the crap out of me.

Oh yeah, and the group sex with dozens of really really hot women, that's the worst one. I really hate that*.

Louis

*Well, to be honest, I'd really love the opportunity to hate it.

Posted by: alysonmiers | May 25, 2010 3:16 PM

If I were to find a bottle of hard liquor on my doorstep, I would totally believe in God. Especially if a new one appeared once a week for several months at a time.

Posted by: "Roger" | May 25, 2010 3:19 PM

This is the part that I don't like: For Rodriguez, the question is whether she was advocating atheism to her students. In a public school setting, that would seem to be improper.

Was that done during or outside of school hours? If it was during, then yes, it would be improper.

I think the "holy water" was just their way of showing that they were pissed off. Strange, but I just can't see them actually believing that it would have an effect.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 25, 2010 3:21 PM

Yahoomess:

A six-pack of stout beer on my doorstep would totally drive the evils out of me.

Regular appearances of hard cider and Djarum clove cigars would have me contemplating the wonders of god...yeah, that's the ticket!

Posted by: tsg | May 25, 2010 3:28 PM

From here:

In response to one student’s remark that the disaster in Haiti happened because of God’s wrath on the island nation over a pact its leaders made with Satan more than 200 years ago, Rodriguez reportedly began refuting Christianity.

I have a hunch, unsupported of course, that she wasn't "refuting Christianity" but refuting Pat Robertson. Which is the same thing, after all....

Posted by: qetzal | May 25, 2010 3:31 PM

If that happened to me, I think I'd come back the next day with my own vial of water. I'd tell them it was Official Atheist Unholy Water (TM), and fling it on them.

I'm pretty sure that will bother the theists a lot more than their holy water would bother me!

Now the only question is, who would I get to "unbless" the unholy water? Hmmm....

Posted by: brian.deegan2 | May 25, 2010 3:35 PM

Would take alot more than cans stout and few cigars for me to believe.
I'd go with daily bottles of top quality scotch, box of cigars, a million euro (or dollars or pounds) oh and some of that calamari sounds good, but every second day I want the calamari to be replaced with good steak instead. Suppose the occaisional keg Guinness would be too much to ask for.
I think that lot would be a good start to helpin me believe in the flying spaghetti monster or god or any other imaginary figure to keep the good stuff coming.

Posted by: Westcoaster | May 25, 2010 3:37 PM

That sounds funny, but I can only imagine the kind of crap this teacher must put up with. Sounds like a pretty toxic work environment to me.

Posted by: truthspeaker | May 25, 2010 3:41 PM

Posted by: Zeno | May 25, 2010 3:08 PM

I don't get it. What is a Baptist minister's wife doing with holy water? That's a Roman Catholic sacramental that is normally disdained by Protestants, but I guess they think it works anyway. I mean, we've all seen Buffy, right?

I think you'll find that many American Protestants get most of their knowledge of theology from horror movies.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 25, 2010 3:42 PM

My oh my, the comments:

People are so serious, nowadays. So what if these teachers pranked an outspoken, spying atheist athletic coach who probably would have been in Iraq with Halliburton if she wasn't too busy spying on teachers who support unions. Big deal! If someone was always dissing your God to students and spying on you on the side, screwing up the checks and balances and is in collusion with those against the common person: and then he or she gets a rightful pranking just to nettle and diffuse tension from such Gestapo-type behaviour.... just think about it! If a Muslim slipped Halal meat into a Christian teacher's sandwich I doubt there would be this response BUT AS SOON AS CHRIST IS INVOLVED everyone goes ape. Ask yourself what's worse: a one-off prank to someone begging to get struck by lightening OR spying on your colleagues and setting up pillars of fairness. I mean people, again BIG DEAL!!

If this aethist was proseltzying his faith in a lack of spiritual Uberalles then the opposing view had every right to present their view even with holy water. One faith in nothing is no better than one's faith in something. It is wrong to discriminate against one for the other. He invited the dialogue by proseltyzing his faith in the nothingness.

I completely agree with @Mik: Mrs. Rodriguez, being atheist, does not believe in "Holy" Water, as she doesn't believe in God. She's then making a complaint because she got wet when 2 teachers doused/sprinkled her with water... Hummm... Either Mrs Rodriguez is a hypocrite, or she's not really an Atheist, and is basically lying to her students when "sharing" her Atheist beliefs with them.

Atheists are just idiots who hide behind comfortable mass-produced skepticism so that people dont realize that they lack the mental faculties to have ever given the nature of reality any real thought.
if they didnt have their blanket of skepticism to keep them warm, i fear what the monsters would be capable of.
on that note, bye:)

If getting sprayed with Holy Water bothers you that much, then perhaps you're not really an Atheist. A true Atheist would consider it the equivalent of getting squished with a squirt gun.

Posted by: bart.mitchell | May 25, 2010 3:47 PM

How to make Holy water:

Take one bottle water.
Place in pan.
Turn on high heat and boil the hell out of it.

An old classic, but always worth repeating. At our last atheist meeting, someone cracked this classic off leaving a young girl in near hysterics.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | May 25, 2010 3:49 PM

(I am expressing STUNNED SILENCE)

Could you please do it a bit more quietly.

Posted by: donbutton | May 25, 2010 3:49 PM

There's a poll on this here:
http://www.sfltimes.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4489&Itemid=1

The question is "Should teachers debate the existence of god in the classroom?"

It's a ridiculous question without more context, but the NO vote is winning right now 62/48, so I think the right answer in this case must be YES.

Shall we?

Posted by: JackC | May 25, 2010 3:55 PM

I would suggest a one-word, off-school-premises response to this situation.

SuperSoaker.

Or is that two words? I never can tell.

JC

Posted by: mikerattlesnake | May 25, 2010 3:58 PM

when I was a teacher for two years I was talking to another teacher about how it was too bad that so many of our students' parents allowed them to play any video games and see any movies without regard to what material was age-appropriate (I was referring to things like Saw and GTA for pre-high school kids). She immediately agreed and said it was horrible that kids played world of warcraft and learned witchcraft.

I remember staring at her for about three seconds and then saying "yeah, but those things aren't real. Gang violence, prostitution, and torture are real things. Kids can't actually learn spells because witches aren't real." I couldn't figure out how to say it without sounding terribly condescending.

Public school sucks and seems to attract mostly morons. Morons with good intentions, sure, but morons nonetheless. I encountered very few people who I would call rational, critical thinkers.

Posted by: donbutton | May 25, 2010 4:01 PM

TSG said "I would need a "YES if we could count on it being an honest discussion, but NO if some twit is going to use it as an excuse to preach" option."

I think the key word here is DEBATE. Apparently, in this school district, Christianity is assumed and pushed, so debate is probably very unwelcome. It implies that there is in fact more than one opinion.

Posted by: tsg | May 25, 2010 4:08 PM

I think the key word here is DEBATE.

The second key word, though, is "teachers": a position of authority that can too easily be abused. Yes, I would prefer an honest discussion, however I don't think that is what we'll get.

Apparently, in this school district, Christianity is assumed and pushed, so debate is probably very unwelcome. It implies that there is in fact more than one opinion.

Hence my reservations.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | May 25, 2010 4:14 PM

From the South Florida Times article:
"Local clergy have called an emergency meeting"

Can't help but laugh at the notion of a "clerical emergency". Naturally in this case, and probably every other case, it's just a signal that it's time to flog the persecution complex again.

"an avowed atheist who was expressing her lack of belief in God with students."

Gasp! An avowed atheist! Talking out loud about it! Sound the clergy alarm! Call the church police!

"Leslie Rainer and Robinson were escorted out of the classroom on April 22 in front of students, and were ordered not to return to school grounds until further notice."

Of course, we can always count on school administrators to handle things with the appropriate ham-fistedness. *eyeroll*

Comment at the SF Times:
"I think the real issue here, that everyone else seems to be avoiding, is that God is not following through on His promises. Now, it seems to me that two good-natured, God-fearing women blasted some heathen Atheist harlot with Holy Water, and she doesn't seem to be physically hurt at all! What is going on here!? Had the blessing gone stale, or did God drop the ball on this one? "

Yes! And this comment was downrated by one, can you believe it?

Of course, this is all a big she said/she said at the moment. Still, I'd love to ask the accused teachers just what it was they were trying to accomplish.

Posted by: donbutton | May 25, 2010 4:16 PM

As I said, the question lacks context. If the teachers are pushing the fundy evangelism where it does not belong, then I would certainly encourage my sons to speak up and debate said teachers.

If a church-going student challenges a non-believing teacher atheism (assuming it's in the context of a related topic—philosophy, biology, cultural anthropology, etc), then yes, debate could in fact be a healthy learning experience.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | May 25, 2010 4:19 PM

When SonSpawn was eight or nine, he ran into some loons who told him that his Yu-Gi-Oh cards were demonic, that they'd burned all of theirs in a special family ceremony, and that he needed to burn his to destroy the evil spirits in them (this after I'd wasted two weeks over the summer learning to play the damn game so I could teach him to play in a local tournament). He came home from that 4-H meeting in tears at the idea that someone wanted to burn his toys, at which point his father knelt down and said "Son, you've just learned something really important. A lot of people are really really stupid." I'd been thinking along the lines of how some people get confused when they have unpleasant emotions (kids getting jealous and arguing over highly valued cards) and figure that they're being influenced by some outside force, but I decided that "really really stupid" was a fine description. Then he asked, still sniffling, if we could play several hands of poker as a family to calm him down.

Good to know that such idiots grow up to be teachers and assault their colleagues with magic cootie-banishing liquids.

Posted by: grudgedk | May 25, 2010 4:24 PM

Technically this could be construed as attempted assault with a deadly weapon ... But it also could be construed as "breathing while stupid" or similar.

I mean if it had been the other way around, 2 Satanic teachers branding a devout Christian teacher on the forehead with an upside-down pentagram, people would be screaming bloody murder!

But grudgedk I hear you say "That's not at all the same thing! Your version is painful and sick!", and you'd be right of course, but it's not my fault your god is a wuss... :)

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | May 25, 2010 4:32 PM

See?! This is why Christianity is a religion of peace! Muslims woulda thrown acid at her!

Oh ... don't give them ideas, you said.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | May 25, 2010 4:37 PM

When SonSpawn was eight or nine, he ran into some loons who told him that his Yu-Gi-Oh cards were demonic, that they'd burned all of theirs in a special family ceremony, and that he needed to burn his to destroy the evil spirits in them (this after I'd wasted two weeks over the summer learning to play the damn game so I could teach him to play in a local tournament). He came home from that 4-H meeting in tears at the idea that someone wanted to burn his toys, at which point his father knelt down and said "Son, you've just learned something really important. A lot of people are really really stupid."

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

Most awesome response ever. Mattir's husband wins the thread.

Posted by: Shadow | May 25, 2010 4:44 PM

I alway thought that Assault was the perceived threat and battery was the action.

In this case the assault would be seeing a bottle of unknown liquid (claimed to be holy water, then perfume called holy water) and the battery would be the liquid hitting her. IANAL, but I would certainly look at charges. You know they would if you threw a cracker at them.

Posted by: Acronym Jim | May 25, 2010 4:49 PM

I might start smoking and my flesh will melt and then I'll disintegrate with an unholy wail as Satan drags me down.

While smoking is bad for you, I hardly think it qualifies as damnable offense. I suppose though, it depends on what you're smoking.

Posted by: AustinAcid | May 25, 2010 4:54 PM

haha, about these teachers maturity levels, there has been an on going joke at the grade school i work at, that the teachers tend to act like the children they are around so much. and from what i seen of other schools it seems to be a common trend. =)

weird that pz posted this right as the joke became common... im on to you pz... *shifty eyes*

Posted by: lenoxuss | May 25, 2010 5:13 PM

Holy water is one of those things at the delicious boundary where religions embarrass themselves for us. Whereas stuff like prayer somehow remains "common sense" in the current zeitgeist (despite being a magic ritual), notions like holy water, demons, exorcism, and witchcraft have come to have, in the popular culture, the Hold-on-you-can't-really-believe-that quality, like leprechauns do. But it hasn't just disappeared like other facets of Christian theology. Why?

Because Jesus, in addition to being super-powered in various ways, was an exorcist! Not only that, but a very "human" one — driving demons into pigs, which is not the sort of thing I imagine an omnipotent being doing (why sacrifice some animals instead of just zapping away the demons?).

I'm not sure I've ever heard a good theological answer to the question of why we don't have witchcraft statutes anymore. Surely it's still physically possible to consort with Satan, acquiring demonic powers to inflict disease on one's neighbors? This stuff isn't just medieval thinking — it was mainstream theology less than 300 years ago! Did all the witches and demons disappear into the time of legend? Where does the Bible say they would?

And judging by, say, Harry Potter/Magic TCG/etc hysteria, demonological thinking still exists today. (Again, since it's in the NT, no surprise.) How do people reconcile that thinking with modern sanity? If popular culture can drive kids to become actual Satanic spell-casting warlocks, why don't the concerned parents do more to address this root problem, not just express worry about individual books/films? There should be calls for the establishment of something like the Comics Code Authority, an entity which would determine which roleplaying games, etc, are most likely to transform children into accursed Lovecraftian three-headed beasts.

Of course, the simpler route is just to stock up on holy water, but as pointed out earlier, it only works for Catholics. Oh well.

Posted by: Fortknox | May 25, 2010 5:18 PM

Also, why am I not surprised that these "teachers" are black...they always were much more literal, ignorant and hyper superstitious...

So much for the blatant disproportionate lack of black atheists...

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | May 25, 2010 5:27 PM

Also, why am I not surprised that these "teachers" are black...they always were much more literal, ignorant and hyper superstitious...

Oh great. Another racist idiot.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | May 25, 2010 5:28 PM

Cleanup in aisle #63. Pieces of crap everywhere.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 25, 2010 5:32 PM

Fortknox:

Also, why am I not surprised that these "teachers" are black

Ugh. Take your idiot rhetoric somewhere else.

Seconding Cleanup in aisle #63.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | May 25, 2010 5:35 PM

I don't like the tone of #63 (IPU forbid - I'm being a tone troll!), but having worked in largely African American areas for years, I agree that atheism is wildly underrepresented in the African American community. This is probably because religious institutions have been the central organizers of community life for a long time (far more so than in the majority community, as far as I can tell), and atheism is seen as something that's alien or even harmful to the community. American Humanist Association had a conference on atheism in the African American community last week.

Posted by: raven | May 25, 2010 5:37 PM

Whereas stuff like prayer somehow remains "common sense" in the current zeitgeist (despite being a magic ritual), notions like holy water, demons, exorcism, and witchcraft have come to have, in the popular culture, the Hold-on-you-can't-really-believe-that quality, like leprechauns do.

??? What planet are you commenting from?

It is true that demons, witches, and witchcraft disappeared from serious thought centuries ago as primitive superstition.

However, a whole lot of people never got that memo. In fundieland, these are still major preoccupations. Spiritual warfare, the War against Halloween, hordes of demons roaming the earth stealing your parking spot, xian children kidnapped and found dead and completely drained of all their blood and on and on and on.

Exorcisms are still common in some sects, not just RCC. The fundies do a lot of them too. Carl Sagan's demon haunted darkness is a reality to tens of millions of Americans.

Posted by: raven | May 25, 2010 5:45 PM

scienceandreligiontoday.com:

Apr 8, 2010

Do Angels and Demons Exist?
From Robert Lawrence Kuhn, host and creator of Closer To Truth:

Two-thirds of all Americans believe not only that angels and demons exist, but also that they are “active in the world.” Skeptics are dumbfounded by such “archaic nonsense.”
To believe in nonphysical beings—souls or spirits without bodies or brains—in today’s world may seem, well, delusional. But there are serious scholars who take angels and demons seriously. Why?
Certainly, nonphysical beings would challenge the scientific...

Read it and hold your head in your hands. Or order a few gallons of holy water.

Can't say anything about the accuracy of the statistic that 2/3's of all Americans believe in angels and demons. That seems high but who knows, wouldn't surprise me too much if it was so.

Posted by: stevieinthecity#9dac9 | May 25, 2010 5:48 PM

fortknox. you're an idiot. it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with culture and education.

Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | May 25, 2010 5:52 PM

raven @ 73;

...xian children kidnapped and found dead and completely drained of all their blood and on and on and on.

Oh teh noes! Xians say vampires are real?
But, but, it is dark here, and I do not have any holy water, a handy crucifix or a sharpened piece of wood to hand!

Where is Sarah Michelle Geller when you need her?

It is hard to believe that anyone with access to the educational facilities of a First World country sees vampirism as anything other than a (hackneyed) metaphor for teen angst.

Posted by: Fortknox | May 25, 2010 5:56 PM

Oh, I forgot!

That gay exorcism video that got viral, guess what?

Black! Black! Black!

Posted by: dutchdoc | May 25, 2010 5:58 PM

... and yet another story that bears all the marks of there being WAY more to it than meets the eye!

(Some of it already beginning to surface)

Maybe most people here get a vision of two religious nut jobs attacking this poor atheist teacher and, with foam on their mouths, yelling exorcist gibberish while dousing the poor lady with holy water ...

while in reality there could have been those two teachers in the doorway of the class, holding up a perfume bottle, and jokingly flicking some drops in the general direction of the atheist teacher, giggling and saying, "hey.. it's holy water" ... hee hee hee...

Which was it? Are both scenarios equally plausible? Were you there?

(I personally find the second scenario more plausible, and it also happens to be the story that's now surfacing as to what the entire class room appears to have reported).

Just saying...

Posted by: Fortknox | May 25, 2010 6:03 PM

Two black bozos claiming they can raise dead and heal sick

What did I say about blacks always being the most enthusiastic superstitious nuts?

Posted by: raven | May 25, 2010 6:07 PM

It is hard to believe that anyone with access to the educational facilities of a First World country sees vampirism as anything other than a (hackneyed) metaphor for teen angst.

LOL. As another commenter noted above, a lot of xians get most of their information about their religion from movies.

But the dead, bloodless xian kids aren't being attacked by vampires in their mythology.

They blame it on satanists who kidnap children and bleed them out for their rituals. All those missing kids on milk cartons? Satanists.

FWIW, they really, truly believe that. Various fundie xian groups spent decades pressuring the FBI into investigating missing children. The FBI spent a huge amount of time doing so. They never found a single case of a missing kid abducted by satanists for their rituals. In fact, there is no evidence that real satanists even exist.

There are for real missing children. They go missing for many reasons, some horrible. The most common is being abducted by one parent involved in a custody dispute.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | May 25, 2010 6:09 PM

Fortknox, fuck off. Your racism is not welcome here, full stop. You can't justify it, nor can you expect to be considered rational.

Posted by: raven | May 25, 2010 6:13 PM

And what about that Uganda "kill the gays bill", it's still on the table..

The ones who came up with that idea and are pushing it are white US xian fundies based in Washington DC.

2/3's of all Americans believe in demons. 12% of the US population is black. Do the math, the vast majority of demon haunted Americans are white.

Oh, I forgot, Trollknox doesn't do math or reality.

Posted by: gr8hands | May 25, 2010 6:22 PM

Forknox, you're presenting anecdotes (which I presume you know is not evidence) about your point.

I agree that merely calling you a racist is not refuting you.

As you have made the outrageous claim, it is up to you to provide evidence of it. Can you cite any studies that reach the same conclusion?

You do realize that the quickest way to get white people to cancel their subscription is to write something negative about their religion, or mess with the horoscope, don't you? Very enthusiastic.

Check out the public demonstrations and marches for religious things like abortion, prayer, etc. Mostly white people.

Check out the demographics for the megachurches. Mostly white people.

Check out the partipants in the aggressive religious-based killings for centuries in Ireland. Entirely white people.

Check out the people who started all the Crusades and Inquisitions. Entirely white people.

Check out the demographics for private religious schools. Mostly white people.

I could go on and on, and that wouldn't necessarily be anything more than anecdotal commentary, but it does appear to involve millions of white people.

But, I would still appreciate getting the citation for the scientific research supporting your claim.

Posted by: raven | May 25, 2010 6:27 PM

My bad. Satanists instead of vampires. I suppose believing in human cultists is marginally more rational than belief in the undead, but the total lack of evidence for satanism definitely places this obsession in the usual range of fundie fantasy.

The satanic elite and child abduction Feb 14, 2009 ... The Challenge to Protect Children The satanic elite and child abduction ... satanic ritual murder, and more, where thousands of children who were ... The Finders also have and continue to abduct children to be "sold" at ... unhypnotize.com/illuminati/571-satanic-elite-child-abduction.html - Cached

There is a large lunatic fringe of the fundie xian-satanist-child abduction meme complex who are questionably sane. Google has lots of links. These people are far more frightening than satanists or vampires. Those are just mythology, while the kooks are real.

Posted by: Ichthyic | May 25, 2010 6:29 PM

while in reality there could have been those two teachers in the doorway of the class, holding up a perfume bottle, and jokingly flicking some drops in the general direction of the atheist teacher, giggling and saying, "hey.. it's holy water" ... hee hee hee...

somehow, I don't find that comforting.

you do?

Posted by: Michelle R | May 25, 2010 6:31 PM

People, if this happens to you, reach for the nearest firehose/garden hose. :D

Posted by: pnrjulius | May 25, 2010 7:02 PM

Wait... PZ... you eating calamari... isn't that like cannibalism?

Posted by: Ströh | May 25, 2010 7:46 PM

Holy water? Really? These people are just asking for trouble. Sure, most of us don't react very badly to Holy Water® but some of us... Well, lets just say seeing us shed our human skin and erupt into our true form in all its Eldritch glory isn't precisely nice.

Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom | May 25, 2010 8:06 PM

Stupidity is no defense in the eyes of the law.

Stupidity is not a PERFECT defense, and the criminal law will only let you be so stupid, but it IS a defense.

Posted by: monad | May 25, 2010 8:39 PM

@103: It's not like cannibalism is unheard of among cephalopods, though.

Posted by: Denis Loubet | May 25, 2010 9:04 PM

Holy Water today, wooden stakes and silver bullets tomorrow.

Best to nip it in the bud right now.

Posted by: Notkieran | May 25, 2010 9:24 PM

Tangential to Michelle @ #101:

There was this one time when I was in school, in art class, one classmate decided to harass me by flicking water on me from the tap.

This was a bad idea. I was painting at the time, and I threw my brush water right into his face.

I am a fully paid up subscriber to the Untouchable Strategy of Dispropotionate Response.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | May 25, 2010 9:41 PM

Would it be worth it to mention to Fortknox that the atheist teacher is also black?

Posted by: wadvln | May 25, 2010 9:53 PM

PZ - I have been reading your blog for a LONG time - with pleasure. I have never felt the need to wrote a comment until now. Trust me when I tell you that for the faithful to threaten you with calamari dressed with butter should evoke no fearful response. Calamari - grilled or fried - with garlic, OLIVE OIL, and a squeeze of lemon (try lime every once in a while for a change of pace) is likely to cause you to convert!

May I also suggest a Greco di Tufo as a wine pairing?

BTW I also teach at a state school.

Posted by: A. Nuran | May 25, 2010 10:06 PM

It's funny as long as it's just holy water.

Salafist Muslims in Pakistan and Afghanistan have started throwing acid on immodest women. Charedi Jews in Israel throw rocks at anyone they don't like. Christians in this country tend towards bullets.

Posted by: Zoot Capri | May 25, 2010 10:12 PM

Today it is sprinkling "holy water" on someone, tomorrow it is bombing Planned Parenthood offices. You cannot trust these crazy nut cases. They are not rational. They are so brain washed and think that everything they do in the name of "jesus" is ok. They flat out scare me.

Posted by: chaseacross | May 25, 2010 10:16 PM

It's important that the people who did this are disciplined firmly. Otherwise it will escalate. I wouldn't be so quick to make light of this. Holy water one day, bullets the next.

Posted by: chaseacross | May 25, 2010 10:28 PM

@mirroreyes

The practice of Jews hiring Christians (and Muslims, and heathens of every sort) to do work on the Sabbath goes back millenia. The practice of taking children away after forced baptism isn't specific to England, and was definitely right out in Victorian England. Jews in England had enjoyed unusual amounts of tolerance in England, going back to the 17th century when they were officially allowed to return by Oliver Cromwell (never say religious zealotry never served to promote tolerance). It was in Catholic countries where the practice of forced baptism and loss of custody lingered on past the Middle Ages. There were a few famous cases in the early 19th century, particularly in Rome, where the Pope often personally interceded in these cases in favor of removing children from Jewish parents. If you get a chance, read The Popes Against the Jews, an indictment of the Catholic Church and its strong links to anti-semitism in Europe.

Posted by: monimonika | May 25, 2010 10:40 PM

dutchdoc #83

there could have been those two teachers in the doorway of the class, holding up a perfume bottle, and jokingly flicking some drops in the general direction of the atheist teacher, giggling and saying, "hey.. it's holy water" ... hee hee hee...

I second Ichthyic @#99. Is this scenario supposed to somehow lessen the malicious intent of the two teachers?

Actually, if it was perfume that was flicked, it would seem to me to have more potential for damage than if it was just water (assuming the Holy Water is not contaminated with bacteria). Certain perfumes can stain or react badly (if the sprayed person is allergic) on skin or clothing. Plus, leaving the smell behind could be seen as a form of vandalism.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | May 25, 2010 10:46 PM

Can you teach me how to use my Catapult Turtle to launch my Dragon Champion toward my opponent's Castle, shattering its Floatation Ring, thereby causing it to collapse on top of my opponent's monsters?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Don't ever ask me such a question again. What a total waste of summer vacation that was. SonSpawn came back home and announced that none of his friends actually knew how to play the game. And for that matter, don't bring up the whole Warhammer phenomenon, which is currently absorbing much of our family conversation.

@Walton

Mr. M thanks you for your compliment. He is, unfortunately, not a blog kind of a guy, plus he's still waiting anxiously for the hardbodied evangelical co-eds to show up to assist him with his marital duties. (Would holy water help with that?)

Posted by: Killua | May 25, 2010 11:02 PM

PZ, allow me to express my utter disappointment in you. Garlic, butter, and lemon on calamari? What, and do you want the calamari fried too? It's so.. ordinary. If you're going to guile them into prepping you some cephalopods, you might as well make it a more complex dish and get your money's worth on a free meal. One that'll avoid large amounts of butter and fried calamari.

... Maybe I should cook some squid tomorrow night. Hum.

Posted by: Fortknox | May 26, 2010 12:21 AM

From my extensive watching The Atheist Experience show, reading black atheist bloggers, and listening to podcasts and youtube videos there is a clear pattern which can not be denied.

Black people are far more embarrassingly literal about their superstitions than white people.
Both in deeds and in thinking.

My guess is that it has a great deal to do with ghettoization of their communities and subculture, black churches, the extra effort to enthral themselves in delusions because of greater
absurdity of them being both black and christians at the same time, given the history.

How you came to the conclusion that I'm a racist for saying that is beyond my comprehension.

You are truly lazy, sloppy bunch of people quick to label and insult anyone who goes out of the PC box.

Posted by: otrame | May 26, 2010 12:26 AM

@123

Hey, we have alligators in Texas... Seen 'em myself.

As for the topic, my $0.02:

If the teacher was discussing her atheism in class, she should be counseled to knock it off. So should any teacher espousing a religion in class. Not appropriate.

Even in the most "harmless" version of events, the teachers should be seriously disciplined. That sort of behavior needs to be stomped on. Otherwise it will get out of control. Besides, hostile work environment gets you sued, and it should. And then there is the whole "this is the role model we want for our kids?" issue.

The supposed teacher in the comments on the original story who talked about how the victim was a spy for the school administration and implying that she deserves anything she got needs to go back to school and learn 1) how to write the English language and 2) write "Two wrongs don't make a right" on the blackboard 100 times.

Oh, and Fortknox, please go fuck yourself. With something real sharp. Or better yet (in case you might actually enjoy that) just go away.

Posted by: llewelly | May 26, 2010 12:51 AM

Fortknox | May 26, 2010 12:21 AM:

From my extensive watching The Atheist Experience show, reading black atheist bloggers, and listening to podcasts and youtube videos there is a clear pattern which can not be denied.

Based on a subjective interpretation of anecdotes, you say?

Black people are far more embarrassingly literal about their superstitions than white people.
Both in deeds and in thinking.

My guess is that it has a great deal to do with ghettoization of their communities and subculture, black churches, the extra effort to enthral themselves in delusions because of greater absurdity of them being both black and christians at the same time, given the history.

Posted by: Arancaytar | May 26, 2010 2:12 AM

on calamari

Holy water does not protect from Cthulhu! :P

Posted by: Peter Ashby | May 26, 2010 4:35 AM

@Mirroreyes

For a history of the practice of forced baptism of Jewish Children read David I. Kertzer, The kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara

He got access to the Vatican archives on the subject, they are not entirely closed to scholarship.

Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | May 26, 2010 8:53 AM

Balstrome @ 142;

They should have added "The atheist teacher was treated for 3rd degree burns at the local hospital. Doctors report that she walked backwards down the stairs on all fours and that her head rotated 360 degrees, but is otherwise recovering normally."

And as a follow up article;

"One week after the incident, both of the Christian teachers were found in the woods, deceased from severe trauma to the neck and excessive blood loss, verging on complete exsanguination. The authorities suspect an animal attack.

Strangely, little blood was found at the scene, and despite the fact that both victims were carrying fire arms that had been fired repeatedly, there was no evidence that the animal that attacked them was harmed in any way.

The atheist teacher made no comment beyond;

Ah, the Children of the Night. What sweet music they make...

The meaning of this cryptic statement remains unclear."

Posted by: rn.massey | May 26, 2010 10:02 AM

Black people are far more embarrassingly literal about their superstitions than white people.

My guess is that it has a great deal to do with ghettoization of their communities and subculture, black churches, the extra effort to enthral themselves in delusions because of greater absurdity of them being both black and christians at the same time, given the history.

Oh gee, how on earth did we get the idea that you're a racist moron?

btw, you may want to look up the majority racial make up of backwoods snake handlers, young earth creationists, woo-woo pagans, and that old standard, the witch hunters of the past centuries that actually believed that witches suckled their familiars with third nipples.

I'll say it again; religious nutcases come in all colors, but in this particular case, the race of the teachers involved doesn't bloody matter. So stop trying to derail what is already a fucked up story with your inane and pointless assertions.

Posted by: Aussie Kim | May 26, 2010 11:14 AM

At the very least, any teachers at that school who don't support those lunatic assault-artists should bring water bottles to work labelled "HOLY WATER", or even "ZAMZAM" (Islamic Holy water) just to annoy those bastards. Perhaps the bottles should be clear and full of coke, or something else entirely unholy. Like champagne.

That way, when the Xtian teachers get sprayed with the alternative holy water, their clothes will be stained, as well as their egos and reputations...

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/K2PNji0at.txAjzTShOlxwLuFcVVFwbnng--#bd813 | May 26, 2010 12:33 PM

I have coffee with witches every Thursday, and I will be going to a lecture by a Satanist tomorrow. Who doesn't exist?
Yes, there are alligators in Texas, down in the SE corner, anyway.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkuZEdZCVnvnRTP76E825JuYjMk7D7CVPg | May 26, 2010 1:36 PM

This reminds me of a story in 19th Italy, where a maidservant admitted during confession that she had baptised the son of the wealthy Jewish family she worked at (the baptism took place when the kid was ill and she was afraid he might die). The boy was taken away from his parents, because a catholic child cannot be raised by heathens.

Posted by: JNorris | May 26, 2010 3:04 PM

"garlic with butter and lemon on calamari" now PZ is a purveyor of gastronomic cephalopod pornography and I love it!

Posted by: raven | May 27, 2010 12:02 AM

...I will be going to a lecture by a Satanist tomorrow. Who doesn't exist?

Does this satanist have supernatural powers and talk to powerful, immortal fallen angels? And you have proof?

Long ago, I knew a self proclaimed Warlock. His only obvious power was to be eratic and annoying. Last seen when diagnosed as a schizophrenic and put on heavy doses of medication.

Posted by: woozy | May 27, 2010 2:03 PM

Also they make those of us with sensible reservations about "PC nonsense" look like bigots by association.

Yes, and here a Pharyngula we are so PC. I mean just look at the lengths we go to to respect and be sensitive to others' spiritial beliefs.

Hey, just because racism, intolerance, insensitivity, and genocide aren't PC doesn't that they must therefore be air-quote not PC air-quote.

KnoxFart (okay, lame insult, I know): there is a clear pattern which can not be denied: Black people are far more embarrassingly literal about their superstitions than white people.

Well, I deny it. The pre-concieved notions I have about black people that I justify with anecdotal evidence and a shrug of the shoulders and a come-on-really-between-just-you-and-me-you-think-so-too-dont-you grin seem to be different than your pre-concieved notions about black people that you justify with anecdotal evidence and a shrug of the shoulders and a come-on-really-between-just-you-and-me-you-think-so-too-dont-you grin. I have to many pre-concieved notions that I justify with anecdotal evidence and a shrug of the shoulders and a come-on-really-between-just-you-and-me-you-think-so-too-dont-you grin about creationists, young-earthers, and right wing armageddon fetishists and my pre-concieved notions that I justify with anecdotal evidence and a shrug of the shoulders and a come-on-really-between-just-you-and-me-you-think-so-too-dont-you grin about their whiteness to allow whatever pre-concieved notions that I justify with anecdotal evidence and a shrug of the shoulders and a come-on-really-between-just-you-and-me-you-think-so-too-dont-you grin I may have about black people's superstitious literalism to be greater than my pre-concieved notions that I justify with anecdotal evidence and a shrug of the shoulders and a come-on-really-between-just-you-and-me-you-think-so-too-dont-you grin of white people in general.

This leads to a dilemna: How does one reconcile the difference between two differing pre-concieved notions that are justified with anecdotal evidence and shrugs of the shoulders and a come-on-really-between-just-you-and-me-you-think-so-too-dont-you grins? What would a rationalist do?

Posted by: woozy | May 27, 2010 4:35 PM

Nerd, are you referring to Hyperon's previous objections (which I would have missed) or the any hypothetical objections.

We've all had experience with PC going overboard. (What the hell is wrong with the word "blind" and why could "visually impaired" *possibly be more supportive?) However a bunch of backlashers like to use it to dismiss any objection to their racist or fascists ideas. Appearently claiming something is "not PC" utterly withdraws any complaint and validates any statement. Thus while I might praise PZ Myers and claim that PZ is "not PC", I will *never* so praise racism. Racism might not be PC, but it is definitely not "not PC".

Let's quit this "Well, I know I might not be PC..." business. Absolutely *none* of us *are* PC. That doesn't mean fortknox isn't a racist moron.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | May 27, 2010 5:11 PM

you would realize the obvious truth that Islam,

Posted by: Ichthyic | May 27, 2010 6:20 PM

If you weren't troubled by political correctness on Pharyngula, you would realize the obvious truth that Islam, in the modern world, is by many orders of magnitude a more violent, primitive and dangerous religion than Christianity, and is the cause of hugely greater suffering.

we're mostly concerned with conceptual issues here. Islam, being a late arrival to the Abrahamic religion game, is STILL an Abrahamic religion at heart, and shares most of the same nonsense at its base.

what PEOPLE do with that nonsense will vary from place to place, and time to time, but being equal oportunity deniers of fucking nonsense, Islam is no more or less nonsensical than the other Abrahamic religions.

if you want to go take your grievances out on the PEOPLE that have decided to utilize the more violent aspects of this nonsense regularly and directly, why don't you sign up for a tour in the Middle East?

I'm sure you would be quite happy putting to practice your idea.

right?

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | May 27, 2010 6:29 PM

"Islamophobia", is it? Yes...guilty as charged.

As I said, we aren't interested in your phobias. That is for you, not us, to deal with. If you are so all fired ready to discuss certain sensitive issues, why not stop boring us with you inane and bigoted ideas, and start your own blog, where you can control the discussion? That would be the intelligent thing to do. And then stay away from here.

Posted by: Cygnus Tygger | May 27, 2010 7:38 PM

Okay, stepping outside of the Phayngula PC bubble and comparing Islaam to Christianity:

Well, Islaam's got all those neat sayings about knowledge and truth and equating how great Allah is with how many words there are for him. "...if all the oceans were ink and the something or other parchment then..." and all that. As a knowledge and library geek, I gotta love that.

Christianity has that forgiveness stuff and that's kind of nice, but really not that original when you get down to it. Islaam does the same and it gets kind of trippy when it talks about infinite mercy and forgiveness simply pouring down on you. It's the nerd word thing Islaam's got going for it. It's heady stuff. I guess, Christianity got its simplicity and aesthetic prettiness though when it talks about forgiveness. That's easy to take home to the parents, I guess.

'Course Christianity had that whole S & M and blood and pain worshipping thing that is so sensual. You just know that it's really a kinky sex thing. I mean sometimes you just gotta tear your fingernails into it and rip your teeth into steaming painful carnality, ya know. Islaam's got nothing on that.

Don't get the prophet thing of Islaam though. I mean, prophets are great 'cause they know things and are all smart and holy and all. But I have teachers, and heros, and mentors and all but they're just guys, ya know. At least with Christianity they claim he was god and he's got that whole sexy death hunk thing going for him. I think that's why they make crucifixes heand-held size. Islaam doesn't have any bed toys like that.

Both got that infidel and unbeliever business, though, and that's really not cool.

I dunno. In the end it might come down to images. Islaam won't let draw a picture of my nice bearded teacher. But why would I want to anyway? But that naked dead guy on the cross...! I can wear him between my boobs every day and slip him under the sheets at night.

But then Christianity is all about him and that's a pretty one-sided relationship. Yeah, Islaam's alla' Allah (hah, alla 'bout Allah! Get it?) but at least it asks what I can do to know him better, you know? All that sexy word stuff ... if his name were written in the sky it'd dwarf my life to an ant's weeny ... and if I saw his mercy I'd be crushed flat by its staggering infinitynessosity... You gotta respect someone trying so hard to impress you. With Jesus he just pouts and says "I died for your sins. Bet you're sorry now, bitch."

I dunno. I guess, it's a wash.

Posted by: woozy | May 27, 2010 9:55 PM

I can acknowledge PC can be carried too far. But those of us here can discuss the edges some ideas close to PC without going out of our way to show bigotry.

I think people like to hide behind the "I know it may not be PC ..." backlash. Such a statement makes the guy feel like a straight-shooter bravely telling it like it is while the rest of us are cowering PC toadies afraid of original thought. As well, the implication is that the cowering PC toadies *only* say what they say because it is PC and no other reason.

"I know it may not be PC but these so called 'homeless' are nothing but a bunch of lazy bums and should be run out of town." Yes, that isn't PC and yes, the speaker has a right to speak his opinion. And who knows, maybe the homeless advocates really only do it because it is PC.
But by saying "it may not be PC", the speaker isn't actually strengthening his opinion or weakening the opponent's. The homeless advocate *still* has a series of rebuttals the validity of which are irrelevent to their PC quotient.

Racists *love* to falsely validate their arguments with "I may not be PC but ..." and to up the ante "if you were willing to look past the PC mindset you'd see it's true". "It may not be PC but it's obvious blacks are more embarrassingly literal in their superstitions than whites," Fortknox says. Well, he's right in one sense; That statement *isn't* PC. But so what? "Hitler was a great man and if we ever kill off all the jews history will vindicate him," is *also* not PC. Just because something isn't PC doesn't mean ... well, it doesn't mean *anything*. You may as well say "Well, this sentence may not be written in Spanish but..."

But when Fortknox then says "if you'd only step out of the PC mindset you'd agree" he's ... well, before he's simply saying "I'm a racist". Now he's saying "The only reason anyone opposes racism is because it isn't PC". Well, ... you know what I'm getting at. Words simply fail me.

Posted by: John Morales | May 10, 2011 9:22 PM

Kerry, what you imagine is a proof, isn't.

As for your website and your book, they sound utterly uninteresting to me.

Bah.