Pharyngula

Posted by: Kliwon | June 16, 2010 2:21 AM

The trouble is, I understood every word of that speech.

Posted by: glenister_m | June 16, 2010 2:40 AM

Actually I don't think I've seen any ritual that entertaining. Could have used some minor explosions, disintegrations, or a dalek in the background though.

Posted by: bastion of sass | June 16, 2010 2:56 AM

The Baltimore Pharyngula Fans Group will have its June get-together this coming Saturday, June 19. Details on the group's pages.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | June 16, 2010 3:26 AM

Jibber-jabber in deed.

Posted by: Midnight Rambler | June 16, 2010 4:00 AM

Actually, I think it would have been better if they'd left the speech in the middle in Latin. It would have fit in pretty well with the rest.

Posted by: JeffreyD | June 16, 2010 4:18 AM

Damn! Damn! Damn!

Safari is off. Feel on the stairs in the flat about half an hour ago and may have re-fractured my foot. Will wait till the swelling goes down and then see if I need to catch a taxi to the hospital.

This will teach me to walk around sober in the morning. Never would have happened if I had been drinking. Always much more careful when having drink taken.

Ah well, maybe I can spend all day on the endless thread. When life hands you a lemon...give it back and ask for something better.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | June 16, 2010 4:25 AM

Safari is off. Feel on the stairs in the flat about half an hour ago and may have re-fractured my foot. Will wait till the swelling goes down and then see if I need to catch a taxi to the hospital.

If you've broken one or more bones in your foot it'll be a long time before the swelling goes down. Go to the hospital now for x-rays.

Posted by: Knockgoats | June 16, 2010 4:33 AM

...and of course there's the fact that in opera, they carefully ensure you can't make out any of the words without a script, even if they are, supposedly, singing in your own language.

Posted by: Crewvy | June 16, 2010 4:41 AM

I PITY the fools.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawnG39uMFt69kwCKZ8DoxtmMCvmzr5chx94 | June 16, 2010 4:55 AM

OK. This is how our sacred ceremonies look like to you. So what's your problem with that? Really don't get it. If I were you (and still as interested in SF as I am now) I would really love to be there myself. May the Force be with you!

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawnG39uMFt69kwCKZ8DoxtmMCvmzr5chx94 | June 16, 2010 5:35 AM

So how does that become your problem, dearest Knockgoats idiot?

Posted by: Rorschach | June 16, 2010 6:01 AM

7 hours stopover in Singapore, arghhh...
But, strategically positioned in a bar ,in front of a TV, free wireless at this airport, all will be good !

Posted by: TrineBM | June 16, 2010 6:21 AM

Sorry - two typos in one one-line text.
What I meant was:
That's where the word 'Entertaining' begins to come into play.

(Trine exiting to fetch more coffee)

Posted by: Kel, The Privileged View From Nowhere | June 16, 2010 6:24 AM

PZ, you know from first hand experience that Rorschach can handle his alcohol.

Posted by: bassmanpete | June 16, 2010 6:32 AM

Why did he have to start with 'Now begins the 6th of the 28 stages...' when he can't pronounce sixth properly? Couldn't he have said the fifth or seventh? And here was I thinking only sports commentators said 'sikth'! /rant

Posted by: Q.E.D | June 16, 2010 6:35 AM

@ 20

It's called satire. It's a device used to higlight and critique human vices. This often involves ridicule and derision.

In this case mokery is accomplished by juxtaposing a fictional Star Wars-esque narrative on a real life gathering of Catholics in St Peter's square who have helpfuly provided their own outlandish costumes, ceremony and ritual that look not at all out of place in a fictional space-opera setting.

Actually satire can fail when the reality is so absurd it is too difficult to exagerate into absurdity. This one works but it had to invoke the star wars mythology, aliens and drones to make it more ridiculous than life.

Posted by: Q.E.D | June 16, 2010 6:53 AM

Opera & Satire

If you think you hate musicals/Operetta there is a cure:

Candide by Leonard Bernstein

It's laugh out loud funny and 20 years ago 2 tickets to a performance helped convince my now wife that I might be worth spending time with.

Posted by: Rorschach | June 16, 2010 7:02 AM

Though if you're ever in Canberra, you need to stop in at the Wig & Pen.

How does one ever get to Canberra ? It's not that it's on the way to anything lol...Shall consider a weekend getaway though, maybe we can convince the Bride to attend as well, once temperatures are not so german anymore up there.
Mind you, I had to scrape ice from the windscreen when I drove to the airport this morning.

Posted by: neon-elf.myopenid.com | June 16, 2010 7:13 AM

JeffreyD @12:
If it's an ankle or broken toes, get to a hospital. If it's just a bunch of other bones in the foot, just strap it up and save the expense of a hospital, because that's all the hospital will do, anyway. Been there, done that. Keep the foot elevated as much as you can. Also get a cane and be prepared to do Dr House impersonations for the next couple of weeks.

And, as you no doubt know, live tennis is really awesome, even if one isn't a big fan of the game.

Posted by: Rorschach | June 16, 2010 7:32 AM

If it's just a bunch of other bones in the foot, just strap it up and save the expense of a hospital, because that's all the hospital will do, anyway.

That would be pretty bad medical advice, since some foot fractures tend to non-union if not aggressively treated with non-weight-bearing and a supporting cast.So an XR would sound like a good idea.

Posted by: Kristjan Wager | June 16, 2010 7:42 AM

And in 32 hours, we'll be at Ørsted Ølbar in Copenhagen.

I have been informed that Gudeløs and OriginAle from Djævlebryg will be available at the bar. See you all at 8pm tomorrow!

There was a reason why I picked that particular bar for our meetup.

Looks like most of tomorrow is going to be spent on going to the airport and pick up pharyngulites. Still, looking forward to meeting all of you.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | June 16, 2010 7:54 AM

Damn Ikea! They don't have any cephalopods! Now how am I gonna know who's my people tomorrow?

They did have potato risers, actually - I guess that might be an efficient lure for lefse loving Minnesotans, but I fear it won't be as obvious for the rest of the party.

I fear I'll have to carry the latest issue of Chemisty in Britain World then. Unless I can pick something up between Noon and six.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 16, 2010 8:02 AM

Sleepy alligator in the noon day sun,
Lyin' by the river just like he usually done.
Call for his whiskey, he can call for his tea,
Call all he want to, but he can't call for me.

Posted by: Betelgeuse | June 16, 2010 8:07 AM

RTL:
In my experience, no other game gains so much from being watched live. TV totally fails to convey the astonishing power and pace of the professional game, male or female. I'd recommend that anyone with even just a passing interest in tennis goes to a live top class game sometime in their life.

Oh I totally agree. I've had countless yawns thrown at me when I go into enthusiastic mode about my two visits to Wimbledon (although this could be because I overdo it :) ).
Its worth saying though, that the fact that most people consider it so yawn-worthy is because they've never seen a game live.
A good live game is quite thrilling; and if the player is outstanding you come away with the intense satisfaction of having seen some amazing skills in close up action.
Phew. There's my pro-tennis spiel.

Neon-elf
One of my favourite moments was being yelled at by John McEnroe, who got right up in my face, because my camera was clicking too loudly.

[Laughs madly as image creates itself in head]
Although I sympathise if that it wasn't that funny at the time.

Posted by: KingUber | June 16, 2010 8:20 AM

Is that Alexander Kwasniewski I see?

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | June 16, 2010 8:24 AM

* or "on" or whatever.

Anyway, apparently I'm gonna be reïncarnated as a baboon.

I hate and detest monkeys.

Posted by: David Marjanović | June 16, 2010 8:36 AM

Sili, I was thinking of wearing something mildly squidlike Friday as well. Especially since I can't join you all tomorrow at the bar, so I'll have NO chance of knowing who's who Friday to Saturday.

Being a scientist does have its advantages here. As if the photo of me that was posted in this Thread in January weren't enough, I'll simply wear a nametag – the one from last week's conference, the only one so far that has managed to spell my name correctly! :-) I always keep conference nametags as souvenirs.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 16, 2010 8:45 AM

Can you tell me what a Kw*k moment is please? I've seen that word mentioned a few times but have no idea what it means.

John Kw*k is a self important previous commenter here and notorious internet loony tune who likes to drop names.

So when a name is dropped, like I did above, when you mention a Kw*k moment you are essentially tipping your hat to the idea that name dropping can be completely obnoxious but you are doing it anyway.

Though, if you start demanding Leica Cameras or telling people they'll lose friends on facebook, you've crossed the line.

Posted by: co | June 16, 2010 9:08 AM

...and of course there's the fact that in opera, they carefully ensure you can't make out any of the words without a script, even if they are, supposedly, singing in your own language.

It was shown several years ago (I can't remember in which peer reviewed publications, unfortunately, though I could probably figure it out) that the human vocal tract is unable to keep nearly any language (except for a very slow, binary, blast-silence one) intelligible at those volumes.

We just can't project and enunciate at the same time.

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | June 16, 2010 9:18 AM

David M and TrineB: I do that too...I always thought that I was alone in this, especially since I am not by nature a collector. I think when I have enough of them*, I will wear them all. That could be fun.

*You know...enough so that I don't need clothing otherwise. Although some of them pin on.

Posted by: Birger Johansson | June 16, 2010 9:23 AM

Speaking of Popes.....fans of Ben Templesmith's graphic novels will recall his "Wormwood, Vol. 2" with Pope Not-So-Innocent I, pervo extraordinnaire,
who got elected pope after all the other cardinals succumbed to food poisoning.

As an extra plus, there are Universe-eating squidmen involved, plus tons of gratitous violence. Vol. 3 has even more cephalopods!

Off-topic: CDC Officials Announce Free Ice Cream For Everyone, Delicious Tasty Ice Cream, And Also There Is An Ebola Outbreak http://www.theonion.com/articles/cdc-officials-announce-free-ice-cream-for-everyone,17611/

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 16, 2010 9:27 AM

Yes Bernard, you are 100% completely correct. My example was a poor version of Kw*king a comment.

That you for the correction.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | June 16, 2010 9:32 AM

I think when I have enough of them*, I will wear them all. That could be fun.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | June 16, 2010 9:53 AM

Rorschach is in Singapore ... did somebody warn them that he was going to be there for seven hours? Plenty of time to cause trouble. How about a local color report, Rorschach?

Jeffrey, sorry to hear about your falling down stairs sober. Others were right to tell you to get yourself to the doctor. My daughter twisted an ankle (or so she thought) and waited until the next day to see a doctor. Waiting, and walking fer chrissakes, on a fractured ankle made things much worse.

Posted by: Givesgoodemail | June 16, 2010 10:03 AM

Now here's an interesting idea for BP (and the U.S.) to consider.

Posted by: Thorne | June 16, 2010 10:06 AM

@ TrineBM #61:

But anyways, I'm sure Pharynglites are magnetic, so I'll just follow the attraction ;-)

I don't know about magnetic (though there's certainly enough irony to qualify), but from what I've seen here there are many who do seem decidedly... tacky!

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 16, 2010 10:11 AM

It must be painful to realise that you will never achieve the dizzy heights of oblivious derangement of that obsessive dungeon dweller.

It is a bit disconcerting

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | June 16, 2010 10:19 AM

So when a name is dropped, like I did above, when you mention a Kw*k moment you are essentially tipping your hat to the idea that name dropping can be completely obnoxious but you are doing it anyway.

Though, to do it right, you must also do it relentlessly; in fact, avoid posting at all if you can't reference your famous teachers, acquaintances and school.

Posted by: MrFire | June 16, 2010 10:34 AM

For Josh OSG and sourdough fans:

Nancy Silverton's Grape Sourdough Starter.

'course, make sure your grapes are organic and have plenty of that white wild-yeasty goodness on the skins (.

Unbleached rye flour also contains way more yeast than wheat flour, and will give you a very vigorous starter. Which ties in with what someone said earlier about most of the wild yeast coming from the flour itself, rather than from the air. Although with time, the starter supposedly eventually gets overtaken by the local yeast strain, which would presumably be 'from the air'.

Posted by: iambilly | June 16, 2010 10:40 AM

will give you a very vigorous starter

Tell me about it. I set up a rye sponge a few years ago -- rye flour, honey and water -- and left it on the counter to see if I could capture some wild yeast here in PA (I had heard from a friend to trty this). I left it alone (save for adding some water and stirring it occasionally) for about a week and nothing happened. Then one morning I glanced under the microwave and realized that I had a wonderful rye-lava flow extending three feet from the bowl. Not sure what yeast I had 'captured' but it made for a good bread. And yes, I did clean up the counter. No, I did not use the escaped sponge as it had kitty-cat footprints in it.

Posted by: Rorschach | June 16, 2010 10:55 AM

did somebody warn them that he was going to be there for seven hours?

What is it with you people today ??
I seem to be up for the cheap shots ,something I said? Fair enough, I can take it.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 16, 2010 11:00 AM

Well Rorschach I guess that's what you get when you tell us we're too nice :P

But that's ok. I'm contrarian by nature.

Posted by: iambilly | June 16, 2010 11:07 AM

I'm contrarian by nature.

No. You're not.

Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemurian | June 16, 2010 11:13 AM

I once got my toe stepped on by Senator Kennedy as he descended a speakers stand at a nuclear freeze rally back in the '80s. He said, "Sorry," and kept going.

I once stepped backwards in a bank queue in Canterbury, stepped on someone's toe, said sorry, and turned round to discover it was the Archbishop of Canterbury, in full purple drag gear.
AND, while struggling up a Himalayan mountan path and hearing people behind me, I stepped off the path to let them by. The Dalai Lama said "thank you", smiled at me, and zoomed past.
Both these stories are true, btw. Do I get today's Kw*k award?

Ha ha, Spain have just conceded a goal.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 16, 2010 11:18 AM

RTL, those are not good kw*k stories though because they are too cool.

You see the part where you actually do something, and are being active, in some location. That spoils it. It would be better if you were simply *in* Canterbury, where of course the Archbishop mentioned you, indirectly of course. But it has gained you notoriety among your *friends* as the most noted atheist in Canterbury.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | June 16, 2010 11:46 AM

Wow - that was an amazing keynote. John Berry gave a wonderful speech about LGBT rights in federal government and it really made a huge impact to me. It definitely will help when I go home this Friday having heard what he said. I'm still scared, but I think I can at least use a little bit of his words to keep me calm.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | June 16, 2010 11:56 AM

KG (@11):

Well, there's non-realist, and then there's plain silly!

Seriously, of course it's a matter of taste.

Fair enough: I'm always among the first to say de gustibus non disputandum. I do, however, think there's a difference between "I personally think that's silly" on the one hand, and "that's silly simply because it's not like real life," on the other. For myself, I'm not convinced that realistically representing real life is the primary goal of art. OTOH...

For me, highly artificial forms of drama such as musicals, opera, ballet, just don't work: I want character and narrative, not a lot of yodeling and prancing about.

...maybe you do think so? I'm wondering — and this is a matter of genuine intellectual curiosity here, not veiled criticism or verbal aggression — whether you also dislike highly artificial forms of other kinds of art (e.g., abstract paintings, free-form sculpture, non-narrative modern dance, etc.). How about non-musical drama that's highly stylized in some way (e.g., either minimalist or fanciful sets and costumes, incorporation of multimedia aspects, dialogue set in verse, etc.).

I ask because I'm curious about whether you have a consistent preference for naturalistic, representational forms across all the arts, or just a particular aversion to mixing music and dramatic narrative (not that there's anything wrong wi' dat, if so).

I want character and narrative, not a lot of yodeling and prancing about. Besides, with regard to opera, it is just such a vile noise!

Well, I disagree that opera is inherently a vile noise — even though most of it is not to my taste, I recognize it as high-quality music, and I occasionally find operatic singing quite beautiful — but I agree it's not ideal for advancing a narrative. For me (and much of the English-speaking world), part of that is because virtually the entire opera canon is in a language I don't understand. Most of it, though, is just that the highly formal style of singing is, even when it is beautiful, an extra barrier between me and the story, or the emotions of the characters.

By contrast, some of my favorite moments in (non-opera) musical theater are those where speech and music seemlessly blend into each other — pretty much all of Henry Higgins' numbers in My Fair Lady; Arthur's "I Wonder What the King Is Doing Tonight" and "How To Handle a Woman" from Camelot; Prof. Harold Hill's patter-songs from The Music Man, including "The Sadder But Wiser Girl," my quote from which started this whole mess — which for me, unlike opera, emphasize and heighten the inherent musicality of speech (and of real life in general), rather than serving as a barrier to understanding.

Of course, it's probably precisely those sorts of songs that lead to criticisms like Ol'Greg's (from the previous thread) that they're compromised as songs by the demands of the narrative... which is true enough, as far as it goes: I don't think "Why Can't a Woman Be More Like a Man" would do much for me outside the context of My Fair Lady. But, as I've said before, the musical theater catalog is crammed full of great songs that can stand on their own with any popular music from any genre or period. Indeed, until the advent of rock and roll in the 50s, a large fraction of all hit songs came from the stage, one way or another. Even as recently as my own childhood, the hits my parents were listening to (call it Adult Contemporary, though AFAIK that term was not yet in use) often came from Broadway shows or Hollywood musicals, and even on the rock/pop charts it wasn't unusual for hits to come from "experimental" shows like Jesus Christ Superstar ("I Don't Know How To Love Him," which was a hit for Helen Reddy as a straight-ahead love song) and Hair ("Age of Aquarius" and "Goodmorning Starshine").


Hmmm... on of the most amusing things about posting here — and one of the things I love best about it — is learning that I have opinions (and knowledge) that I hadn't really been conscious of before. Writing about this stuff helps me understand muself better; I hope my little journeys of self-discovery aren't too burdensome for the rest of y'all....

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 16, 2010 12:08 PM

ow they beck can a cat shed that much and not be bald.

I have a 60 lbs. huskey that produces additional huskys daily in hair volume.

And my 105 lbs Lab comes close.

I swear I either vacuum or sweep every day.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | June 16, 2010 12:14 PM

Sili (@83):

Re sparteine, I note that... "it is not included in the Vaughn Williams classification of antiarrhythmic drugs."

Wow, that Vaughan Williams guy is versatile! A composer¹ and a chemist?

What? Oh, Vaugh[]n Williams, not Vaughan? <EmilyLitella>Oh, that's very different then.... Never mind!</EmilyLitella>

Rorschach (@86, etc.):

Be of good cheer: At least nobody's casually mentioning, apropos of nothing, that they don't give a shit about you.

iambilly (@90):

I'm contrarian by nature.

No. You're not.

I came in here for an argument!


¹ Ralph Vaughan Williams' English Folk Song Suite for military band was one of my very favorite pieces from my career as a mediocre high school trumpet player.

Posted by: iambilly | June 16, 2010 12:16 PM

Rev. BDC:

My first pet was a husky (actually, a family pet). He was treed by a cat. He also potty-trained me. Well, he taught me to pee on fences and trees, but it was a small step from there to the toilet. Nice dog. Dumb as toast.

Posted by: iambilly | June 16, 2010 12:18 PM

Sili:

No you didn't.

Posted by: MrFire | June 16, 2010 12:24 PM

Oy, Sparteine. The one where only one enantiomer exists in nature.

There is legend of a crazy colleague in my grad school who performed the synthesis of (+) sparteine just for a lithiation. He made it, and then the reaction didn't work.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | June 16, 2010 12:29 PM

By way of explanation of my temporary absence from the thread... this is my last week in Oxford as an undergraduate, and I've been a little busy. I went punting on Monday evening for the very first time (something I never had time to do in the last three years), and last night was my (belated) 21st birthday dinner. Regrettably, I drank a little too much and spent most of today recovering from the hangover. :-)

Hope all is well with everyone. Kevin: best of luck in coming out to your family. I hope it goes well.

Looking back over the past subThread, I'm also rather confused as to how I managed to incite controversy without actually posting here. :-/

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | June 16, 2010 12:37 PM

Walton (@110):

...last night was my (belated) 21st birthday dinner. Regrettably, I drank a little too much and spent most of today recovering from the hangover. :-)

Heh. Here in the U.S., the morning after your 21st birthday would've been your first opportunity ever to have a legal hangover!

You just have to embrace the hangover as part of the journey, Grasshopper! ;^)

Looking back over the past subThread, I'm also rather confused as to how I managed to incite controversy without actually posting here.

Think of it as a measure of exactly how enthralling you are! ;^)

BTW, I saw your newly hairless face on Facebook. I still miss the 'stache, but it's not too bad.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | June 16, 2010 12:43 PM

Rorschach missed you, that's all.

Think of it as a measure of exactly how enthralling you are! ;^)

Awww. I'm flattered. :-)

Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier | June 16, 2010 12:49 PM

A good Kw*king involves not just namedropping, but namedropping a person who barely qualifies as "famous". E.g, yesterday I was talking to my fellow high school alumnus Stephen Baldwin about cameras.

Posted by: broboxley OT | June 16, 2010 12:57 PM

question for the science types

Why wouldnt a largish thermite candle at the opening of the BP oil spill be better than having the oil go all over the coastline? It would need a rather continuous supply of thermite but as a 1/2 measure till they get a relief well going.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | June 16, 2010 1:08 PM

@Josh, OSG:

Yeah, I saw that earlier on another site. Here's hoping!

Posted by: Dania | June 16, 2010 1:28 PM

Matt Penfold,

How Spain managed to loose that game I do not know.

Yeah, how did that happen? I couldn't watch the game, sadly, and I almost couldn't believe it when I was told Spain had lost to Switzerland.

Posted by: Kristjan Wager | June 16, 2010 1:40 PM

I do have a strange feeling that I might know how Kristjan looks, though ... were you at a meeting in Sommersko appr. two years ago with the Ateistisk Selskab???

Trine, you mean the meeting where I suggested that they got PZ to come to Denmark? I might have....

Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemurian | June 16, 2010 1:46 PM

How Spain managed to loose that game I do not know.

More seriously, because

1) they arrogantly assumed they were going to win at a canter, and weren't prepared properly
2) their usual trick of rolling around any time some one came near them and appealing for penalties didn't work today
3) the Swiss were well organised
4) they didn't play very well

When are the players in S Africa going to realise that this disasterous new ball is impossible to bend? They keep trying to curl it round the keeper or over the wall and it just keeps going straight. The ball is too perfectly spherical.

I want character and narrative, not a lot of yodeling and prancing about.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | June 16, 2010 1:48 PM

Man. Not satisfied with denying rights, they now want to strip away rights, too.

Unless of course the forces of light fucks up the publicity and advertising. After all now we have people who are genuinely trying to destroy marriages. Why the hell aren't more media savvy people turning the tables on the bigots and repurposing their hate ads word for word?

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | June 16, 2010 1:55 PM

Can I put in a voice for eliminating the word "marriage" for everyone and instituting an "every adult gets one partner" system, in which sex is optional? Granted most people would wish to be partnered with the person they're shtupping, but I see no reason for the government to be in the business of recognizing or approving of people's sex lives. Might also help to decouple health insurance from family status, but that's unrealistic given our bizarre devotion to the status quo.

I've been working on pissing off the Boy Scouts and the RCC (where SonSpawn's troop meets) by listing Mr. M as either "partner" or "spouse" on any applicable forms. Hasn't drawn a response yet, unfortunately.

@Rorschach - take the kidding as a sign of frustrated affection for your curmudgeonly ways. Or you could just accuse various of us of being drunk.

Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemurian | June 16, 2010 2:04 PM

Why not polyamorous relationships?

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | June 16, 2010 2:18 PM

Mattir:

Okay, I guess that makes sense.

Posted by: lifelesspoet | June 16, 2010 2:19 PM

Jadehawk, on route to copenhagen, has had a flight cancelation and will be stuck in minneapolis airport for the next 24 hours. For those expecting pick up or be picked up in the airport, she regretfully will not be able to make it in time. Also, she is without interweb access currently. Her new flight is scheduled to arrive in copenhagen at 9:25 am on the 18th. That i believe all the information i was instructed to supply you, least the ones my poor memory has eaten. I know know the who and what she all planned, so i hope you can figure something out. buy buy

Posted by: TrineBM | June 16, 2010 2:25 PM

Kristjan Wager

Trine, you mean the meeting where I suggested that they got PZ to come to Denmark? I might have....

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 16, 2010 2:32 PM

Benjamin Geiger:

Why not polyamorous relationships?

There's nothing like bringing up poly relationships to get the screams of "slippery slope! slippery slope! slippery slope!" going.

Jus'sayin.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | June 16, 2010 2:35 PM

Jadehawk, on route to copenhagen, has had a flight cancelation and will be stuck in minneapolis airport for the next 24 hours.

But I'm amused that she's stuck in Minneapolis now that PeeZed isn't around to help her out. Some people have the worst luck.

We'll miss you ms Hawk and have a drink to remember you by.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 16, 2010 2:41 PM

(nor do I know)

That should be now. Time for more tea.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | June 16, 2010 2:45 PM

Ben Goldacre has kindly pointed us to a toothy goodness™ Cephalopodmas present for David and Jadehawk.

Posted by: Birger Johansson | June 16, 2010 2:50 PM

Regarding Kw*king: I once got an e-mail from Freeman Dyson where he commented favourably on a suggestion I made after the latest Shuttle disaster (namely, adopting the *simplest possible* re-entry vehicles a la the old soviet "sharik", the spherical capsules used by Gagarin et al. -if the crew had been inside a secondary rescue capsule like that at the shuttle's centre of mass, they might have made it down alive).

Does this count as a proper Kw*king? Or do I need to get dumber?

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 16, 2010 2:56 PM

Brownian:

We should probably start advocating a new "one person, one houseplant" marriage just to see how many conservatroid heads we can make pop.

"One person, one houseplant" would not work for me. *Looks around* Nope, definitely wouldn't work. I'm poly when it comes to houseplants. Of course, we can start the campaign then have Deep Rifts&trade and highly argumentative debates about the schism and all.

Birger Johansson:

Or do I need to get dumber?

Much dumber.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | June 16, 2010 2:59 PM

Brownian:

What's wrong with the word [i.e., marriag]? It's not like the religious invented the idea.

True enough. But the word is, in common usage, defined by the way it's been used for centuries, and changing an ingrained common word usage is arguably much harder than changing reality itself (for a trivial example, note that we still talk about dialing phones). Is reclaiming the word, per se, worth delaying actual justice?

There's nothing like bringing up poly relationships to get the screams of "slippery slope! slippery slope! slippery slope!" going.

Anything that gets old traditionalists clutching their hearts in fear is fine by me.

I'm all for sticking it to the enemies of justice wherever possible... but actually securing justice is, IMHO, vastly more important. Whenever establishing justice and making its enemies clutch their hearts are at odds, I'll choose the former every single time.

This is not an accommodationist argument; it's an argument for seeking the greatest gain in the shortest time... for putting substance over style.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 16, 2010 3:01 PM

Call me a pessimist, but I don't think just lifting the social structures around monogamy would fix human relationships.

We'd just have new words for the same old hurts.

I mean, people are... people which means there's more than just sexual gratification at play.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | June 16, 2010 3:02 PM

I'll accept all the flowers thrown on stage to acknowledge my total greatness - first ever Kw*k-Godwin. I think I deserve a Molly just for that.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 16, 2010 3:09 PM

Oh wow Josh, you've reminded me.

That guy was surreal. But actually of all the people who posted here he's the only one I ever actually would be afraid of.

Honestly, a kind of dangerously creepy guy.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 16, 2010 3:12 PM

Does this count as a proper Kw*king? Or do I need to get dumber?

I believe Kipling—a personal literary hero of mine—said it best:

When you can slip your high school's name and teachers
Into every conversation in the most
Tangential way, while famous men each are
Facebook friends and your most gracious hosts
When you hammer not nail but thumb and after
The words you shriek are neither profane nor dumb
Nor "Ouch!" but "Mendacious intellectual pornographer!"
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, and—which is more—you'll be a Kw*k my son!

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 16, 2010 3:15 PM

Now this is how you pull a tooth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPhRiaNW4UQ&feature=player_embedded

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 16, 2010 3:16 PM

@160

Brownian! LOL!!!!

Posted by: curious tentacle | June 16, 2010 3:19 PM

Real rituals involve tetacles. Still funny as shit.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | June 16, 2010 3:25 PM

Ol'Greg:

Call me a pessimist, but I don't think just lifting the social structures around monogamy would fix human relationships.

We'd just have new words for the same old hurts.

On first reading this, my immediate impulse was to say I agree 100%.

But then I thought about it a bit more. On the one hand, I absolutely agree that human relationships are inherently difficult, and the challenges they face are far deeper than anything a mere change in labels could ever possibly address. (And BTW, I absolutely didn't mean to reduce life or relationships to "just sexual gratification.")

OTOH, though, I can't help wondering how often, in this ever-changing world in which we're living, those relationships are distorted from their "natural shape" or thwarted altogether because they don't fit into the single narrow, inflexible template society imposes on them: Your (one) relationship must be heterosexual, monogamous, and permanent, and your amorous interests must, for your entire life, exactly coincide with your economic, social, geographical, and parental interests... and if all that isn't true, you're a rebel. And even if you are (as huge numbers of us are, in one sense or another) willing to shrug and say, "screw it, then; I'll be a rebel," simply being outside the norms of society has an effect on the challenges you and your relationship(s) face.

So yeah, human relationships are complex and difficult... but how many bad relationships could be avoided, and good-but-troubled ones rescued, if they weren't overlaid with a grid of arbitrary injustice, over and above the pre-existing difficulties?

Mattir:

I think I deserve a Molly just for that.

Speaking of which, did I miss a Molly thread? It seems like it's been a long time....

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | June 16, 2010 3:30 PM

Honestly, a kind of dangerously creepy guy.

This has been the consensus of real-life acquaintances going back 35 years, just for the record. I don't know of any episodes to justify the consensus, but there it is.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 16, 2010 3:32 PM

OTOH, though, I can't help wondering how often, in this ever-changing world in which we're living, those relationships are distorted from their "natural shape" or thwarted altogether because they don't fit into the single narrow, inflexible template society imposes on them

The natural fallacy, IMO. They have no natural shape or ideal.

Ideals are, by definition, enforced. Or they cease to be ideals. After all, we created the society. And while we may change it to improve living in it at present, we will always be enforcing something somewhere.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | June 16, 2010 3:34 PM

I met him several times when I was a kid.

(Mr. M also had the famous author as an English teacher, but fortunately went to a different prestigious university from the Kw*k.)

Posted by: Aaron Baker | June 16, 2010 3:37 PM

Correction: Sura 34:31.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | June 16, 2010 3:41 PM

No, Mr. M went to the same high school, but to a different university. But the K used to call Mr. M at college and then tell whoever answered the phone "I decline to identify myself," which allowed anyone around to get on the phone and mess with the guy. Very odd.

I only met the architect, the mass murderer having been dead for some number of years before my birth. But still, a simultaneous Godwin-Kw*k. I'm still giggling (and trying to do household paperwork).

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | June 16, 2010 3:49 PM

Yeah, really. Mr. M went to high school with him. Really truly. Same graduating class and everything. Same prestigious English teacher.

Hitler and Kw*k. I'm a pretty special snowflake, huh?

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 16, 2010 3:53 PM

Well, Mattir. It sounds like *somebody* is going to lose a lot of very important friends on facebook!

Posted by: iambilly | June 16, 2010 3:54 PM

Pistoreyu (and others discussing opera):

I have to admit that I like some opera -- generally when the males are singing. I've never been a fan of Wagnerian broads who not only sound like they are dying, but take way too long to actually do it.

When it comes to choral music, I tend toward Gregorian chants and more modern religious music like Verdi's Requiem. Bach, Mozart, most of the orchestralization of religious texts really light a fire in my little mind. And the choral movement of Beethoven's 9th is one of the most enjoyable bits of bombast ever sung.

Posted by: TrineBM | June 16, 2010 3:57 PM

I've never married, but live in a relationship absolutely like a marriage (going on 19 years), and I have no other reason to not-marry than stubborness.
I simply will not accept that any authority has to sanction my relationship with another human being. I get all silly-stubborn about it, but honestly, I choose my partner in life and NOONE (here's me yelling again) gets to have a say in my choice. ... Well obviously the partner of my choice does.
He did ask me to marry him once, because of some inheritance-business. And it would have given him a LOT less paperwork, but I couldn't hide the smouldering in my eyes at the thought of some dimwit from the mayor's office telling me that I was now are married woman... so he retracted the marriage-offer with a sigh and went ahead with the paperwork. And no, I'm not big on the romance thing. And I don't really have an opinion about whether poly-this or that would work better or worse. I have a feeling the amount of boredom and heartache would be the same.

Posted by: iambilly | June 16, 2010 4:04 PM

Will the future reproductive fitness of the Spawn be affected by my sad lapse in judgment?

Would you prefer it be enhanced and sped up?

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 16, 2010 4:07 PM

So now all the Pharyngulistas are going to defriend me because of my poor choice in husband's high school classmates?

To be fair, you threatened to defriend me for being bad in bed, or something like that.

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | June 16, 2010 4:12 PM

hi. trying to find a place to sleep in minneapolis without a phone and with extremely limited internet access. the universe hates me. i'm having a minor mental breakdown right now, so y'all who will be meeting me in copenhagen will be responsible for turning me from a total mental wreck back into a human being.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | June 16, 2010 4:17 PM

@ Jadehawk - We are all sending you positive vibrations to provide strength in your time of trial(oops, did that make everything worse?)

I suggest you find a bar and emulate Rorschach's sojourn in Singapore.

Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier | June 16, 2010 4:25 PM

So now all the Pharyngulistas are going to defriend me because of my poor choice in husband's high school classmates?

Not if you provide us with one of those juicy anecdotes of Kw*k that you said you had.

That guy was surreal. But actually of all the people who posted here he's the only one I ever actually would be afraid of.

M*bus scares me. That guy has got serial-killer-who-listens-to-voices-in-his-head written all over him.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | June 16, 2010 4:26 PM

Ol'Greg (@172):

The natural fallacy, IMO. [Relationships] have no natural shape or ideal.

Hmmm... I guess the word natural is a trap; let me see if I can talk around it.

I have naturalindwelling inclinations with regard to my sexual and romantic relationships that, whether by chance or socialization, neatly match the social template we call marriage... but others' inclinations conflict with that template (see Josh OSG, Gyeong Hwa, MAJeff, et al.) and still others' are artificially narrowed by that template (see Caine, Kevin, Walton... perhaps yourself? Forgive me but I sometimes lose track of which person has which personal history). Some of those folks will counterfeit their inclinations for the sake accommodating society; others will stay true to their inclincations at the cost of conflict with society; some will muddle about with an uncomfortable combination of both strategies... but all of their relationships will inevitably face extra stresses, separate from and additional to the common challenges they all share with my relationship by mere virtue of being human relationships.

Now, I'm a communitarian. I'm all about common goods, and I recognize that simply living with other humans (as if we could do anything else) inherently constrains personal liberty (this is the great truth libertarians stubbornly refuse to accept). To the extent that these constraints are limited to what's rationally necessary for the fundamental maintenance of an ethical, well-functioning society, I'm inclined to accept them, even when they are inequitable in individual practice.

But marriage, as it is currently practiced, does not meet the tests of necessity and rationality. It imposes constraints on human relationships that are arbitrary, and that are justified by any compelling social need. It interferes with the pursuit of happiness, and it makes human relationships — which you quite correctly identify as fraught with potential troubles — even more difficult than they need to be.

The flow of water is always shaped by topography, and that flow in turn modifies the topography through which it flows. A social construct like marriage is the equivalent of dams and canals, arbitrarily thwarting or reshaping that flow. Which is fine if it's necessary... but pernicious when it's unnecessary, irrational, and unjust.

Or so it seems to me.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 16, 2010 4:43 PM

*shrugs*

Yeah I think I read you Bill D. One thing I don't get is why this dwelling on permanence is so prevalent. Isn't "for as long as it works" good enough?

M*bus scares me. That guy has got serial-killer-who-listens-to-voices-in-his-head written all over him.

Really? He's pretty disorganized. And he'd have to pry his fingers from the ctl C keys to kill anyone.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | June 16, 2010 4:59 PM

Obesity linked to brain shrinkage and dementia

You're trying to convince me to lose weight. Okay, I suppose I'll...

...oh look, shiny!

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | June 16, 2010 5:14 PM

IMHO, Bill D doesn't spend enough time with the religious right. Those guys scare the shit out of me and there're a lot of them. But I find such optimism refreshing, even if I don't always share it.

I am optimistic about gay marriage, though.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | June 16, 2010 5:30 PM

Ol'Greg:

On this...

One thing I don't get is why this dwelling on permanence is so prevalent. Isn't "for as long as it works" good enough?

...we are in perfect agreement.

Which is a bit of a relief to me: Unlikely as it may seem based on what I write, I actually prefer agreeing with people.

Mattir:

IMHO, Bill D doesn't spend enough time with the religious right.

Thankfully, no I do not. But I don't really think I'm naive about them. It's not that I don't know they're dangerously bugnuts crazy; it's that I have faith (ooh, that word) that the rest of us are not. Crazy is also stupid, and not-crazy almost always wins unless vastly outnumbered. And while atheists might in fact be vastly outnumbered by nominal theists, I don't believe (mostly) sane people are really outnumbered by bugnuts-crazy theocrats.

But I find such optimism refreshing....

Heh. We aim's to please!

Also, Caine:

Thanks for the pointer to the Molly thread; I had missed it. I've put in my nominations, though so long after the fact, I'm not sure the Founder of Our Feast© will ever see them. I won't make you go look there to receive my congratulations: Have them here, instead!

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 16, 2010 5:35 PM

...strikes me as frighteningly dark, and I worry for you.

I've always had that side. I university I was known for my spittle-flecked Dennis Miller- (before he turned to the Dark Side) or Lewis Black-esque rants. I've got a natural Jack Tripper slapstickness to me, so they come across as more humorous than menacing in real life. But I could hold an audience, even if it was because nobody could get a word in until I was done.

I know my blood pressure will kill me one day, or at the least cause me a serious stroke or infarction. Hence the running.

But there is a need for pessimism, though, if only to remind the optimists there's still much to do, so long as we don't focus so much on the road ahead that we don't stop to congratulate the hard workers on the distance we've come.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 16, 2010 5:38 PM

'Tis:

You're trying to convince me to lose weight.

Nooo, just alarming myself. I've been lazy, staying at 116 lbs for a good long while now, when I should drop 10 lbs. That was good motivation in that regard. One of my great grandmothers slid into dementia in her 80s; the thought of that happening to me is...unpleasant.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 16, 2010 5:45 PM

Bill:

I won't make you go look there to receive my congratulations: Have them here, instead!

Thank you! Back from my (brief) walk, it's actually hot today. Wonders never cease. I've decided to do a photo series on doorknobs (cue puns), given all the old tumbledowns around here. Hmmm, I'll have to get out on the road again soon.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 16, 2010 5:50 PM

55799

Posted by: Dania | June 16, 2010 5:55 PM

One of the problems I have with exercise is that it takes time away from the other things I'd rather be doing.

Well, all the exercise I ever get comes from things I like doing:

- Photowalking. I can walk several kilometers without getting tired if there's something else distracting me from the fact that I am walking. Usually it's photography, but music works too, especially if I want to walk at a faster pace or run.

- Swimming. Unlike Josh, I don't have a problem with public swimming pools so I try to go there every week. I find it very relaxing.

- Kayaking. Although I don't do it nearly as much as I would like, that's one of my passions. But I just don't do it often enough, so I can't rely on that to get regular exercise.

This is what works for me, but different people will have to find different ways to exercise themselves while having fun. It certainly is possible.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 16, 2010 6:00 PM

update

Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemurian | June 16, 2010 6:03 PM

One of my great grandmothers slid into dementia in her 80s; the thought of that happening to me is...unpleasant.

Morbid conversation maybe, but sensible when you've seen your only two grandparents who didn't die young both spend many years of nothing but confusion, anger and unhappiness while imposing huge burdens on their children.

Posted by: dkew | June 16, 2010 6:08 PM

OT, but nearly everything here seems to be: where is PZ's Infidel Quotes page now? The link at the top to http://pharyngula.org/infidelquotes.php, does not work, and hasn't for quite a while.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 16, 2010 6:12 PM

awwwww!

Look, I found a baby picture of teh Thread.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 16, 2010 6:17 PM

RTL, I've had a similar discussion with my mother, who has some health issues that may impact her in later life.

I don't think that it is particularly morbid to have a plan in place for very bad things if there's any reason to think that they might happen. However, I would hope she would make sure to have a realistic view of her possible progression.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 16, 2010 6:21 PM

Well, all the exercise I ever get comes from things I like doing...This is what works for me, but different people will have to find different ways to exercise themselves while having fun.

I suppose I could rig up some sort of bowflex thing that attaches to my jaws and wrists so I could be working out while holding forth in three different conversations while pounding beer at the pub.

I'd love to be able to walk to work, but quiet, solitary activities in the wild kind of make me go crazy. I treeplanted for two months, and went absolutely bugfuck nuts (like Heart of Darkness nuts: I'd remove all my clothes and carve 'mystical tree symbols' into my chest with sharpened, burnt sticks). Can't do yoga for similar reasons. Even my morning shower involves a bit of arguing with the voices in my head. (Not actual voices, but the remembered voices of various people who've left an indelible scar in my memory: my dad, a certain ex, etc. Therapy didn't quite excise them.)

awwwww!

Look, I found a baby picture of teh Thread.

Look at Uncle Sven: he's positively beaming!

Posted by: Owlmirror | June 16, 2010 6:41 PM

Re: the fear of Kw*k.

You don't have to be afraid. His obsession is exactly his greatest weakness. All you need to do is get him monologging. He can't help but respond; that's the whole point.

"Tell me about all the noted and renowned people you have known."

While he's doing that, you can figure out and implement an escape plan.

---------

Recently spotted on another thread:

"his high school"
What high school was that? I haven't seen him mention any on this thread.
(Sorry, but it's the only one missing on my bingo card!)

That's comment #45, and the bait is taken @#48. #49 is "House!" (Which is UKian for "Bingo!")

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | June 16, 2010 6:48 PM

Well, all the exercise I ever get comes from things I like doing.

Sometimes sailing can be energetic.

But often it isn't.

Posted by: David Marjanović | June 16, 2010 6:49 PM

Sven! Well, you probably already know about it, but everyone should check out this short paper which is in open access. I hope PZ will blog about it after the conference. It announces a very interesting surprise on the origin of turtles.

Eunotosaurus is a weird Early Permian animal from South Africa (some 270 to 300 million years old). It looks superficially turtle-like in that it has a short, broad trunk and broadened ribs which sort of look like they could be a precursor to a carapace. Accordingly, it was thought to be a close relative of the turtles when it was discovered in the early 20th century. Later, however, the superficial similarities were dismissed as just that – superficial –, the numerous differences between Eunotosaurus and the turtles were emphasized, and turtle origins were up for grabs again.

Then Jacques Gauthier, who <kwok>told me about this at the conference in Aix-en-Provence the day before it was published</kwok>, sent at least one of his students to South Africa to have another look at the beast. Turns out the "superficial similarities" are in fact very detailed, and much more numerous than previously known, especially when the oldest known turtle (Odontochelys, the one that retains teeth, about 230 million years old, published in 2009) is taken into account.

The phylogenetic analysis included in the description of Odontochelys had found the turtles close to the lizards-including-snakes, tuataras, plesiosaurs, and placodonts. Lyson et al. added Eunotosaurus and the 2nd-oldest known turtle (Proganochelys) to the data matrix the analysis was based on, reran the analysis, and lo & behold, the turtles came out next to Eunotosaurus.

Repeating the trick with a data matrix full of the previously closest known relatives of Eunotosaurus gave the same results.

The next round is opened!

================================================

To understand junk DNA, regulatory regions, and even some protein-coding DNA of humans, you need to figure out the tuatara first. As I always say... "nothing makes sense in biology except in the light of evolution" (Th. Dobzhansky); "nothing makes sense in evolution without a good phylogeny" (G. C. Gould & B. MacFadden).

================================================

Jadehawk, on route to copenhagen, has had a flight cancelation and will be stuck in minneapolis airport for the next 24 hours. For those expecting pick up or be picked up in the airport, she regretfully will not be able to make it in time. Also, she is without interweb access currently. Her new flight is scheduled to arrive in copenhagen at 9:25 am on the 18th.

Oh shit.

Good that I checked the thread again instead of... working.

I hope she at least will be able to watch the game we were going to watch in the Ørsted Ølbar...

She had promised to pick me up, so I suppose I should return the favor and come with Kristjan to pick her up on the 18th. Also, two people might be better at turning her "back into a human being" than one.

Ben Goldacre has kindly pointed us to a toothy goodness™ Cephalopodmas present for David and Jadehawk.

Ooh, thanks. Except that such fossils absolutely should be in a public institution. They say they make sure that's where a specimen goes if "it's different" – but to figure out whether it's different, large collections are needed, so that statistics can be done. Just ponder: individual variation, ontogenetic variation (growth/development), sexual dimorphism...

where is PZ's Infidel Quotes page now?

At quotes.html instead of infidelquotes.php, as the latter's defunct source code (still accessible at least in some browsers) will tell you.

Posted by: Knockgoats | June 16, 2010 6:54 PM

Jadehawk, OM@192,

Hey, really sorry to hear that! Puts my laptop problem into perspective. Hope you can get a bed sorted, and look forward to meeting you in person on Friday!

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | June 16, 2010 6:59 PM

"Tell me about all the noted and renowned people you have known."

A couplet from Gilbert & Sullivan's Mikado comes to mind:

There's Tut-Tut-Tut and Whatsisname
and also, well, You-Know-Who.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | June 16, 2010 7:00 PM

Just checking in on the thread... have had a great post-finals week so far and am exhausted but happy. Hope all is well with everyone.

David, Jadehawk, Knockgoats et al: I hope you have a good time in Copenhagen. Wish I could be there.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | June 16, 2010 7:08 PM

I hope PZ will blog about it after the conference. It announces a very interesting surprise on the origin of turtles.

Still, it sounds awfully interesting. What I find curious, but not so much if one considers what is required to fossilize, is that many of the branches appear further in the past than originally thought.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | June 16, 2010 7:17 PM

My Netflix queue is down to almost nothing - suggestions, please?

Pink Flamingos

Mildred Pierce

Queen Bee

Whatever Happened to Baby Jane

The entire run of Ab Fab

This concludes this test of the Emergency Gay Movie Queue System.

Posted by: Shala | June 16, 2010 7:17 PM

Since we are talking about staying in shape, does anyone play Ultimate Frisbee?

I see you are a person of good taste.

Posted by: tutone21 | June 16, 2010 7:21 PM

tag fail!

The Staircase

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 16, 2010 7:22 PM

Yes, of course. Working out who you should and shouldn't swap DNA with is vitally important. But I sort of took that as given, here. Next time I'll be presumptuous enough to tell Pharangulites about genes. :)

No, that's not what I meant by kinship. Anthropologically, kinship includes both genetic relationships (consanguinity, while related individuals are called consanguines) as well as cultural relationships (affinity, people 'related' through marriage are affines). Think more along the lines of "If I marry this person, then I'm on the hook for looking after his or her family when they come visiting from the next village and vice versa, so my family and thus my available pool of resources (as well as dependents) just got bigger". It's a way of cementing relationships between people who are not that related genetically.

After/as well as genes, resources need managing, and different environments require different solutions. Two couple families aren't always the best answer everywhere.

I think you meant two-person families, but I agree, which is why social scientists understand that kinship (and marriage) take a wide variety of forms throughout the world. If God meant for marriage to include only one man and one woman, then he forgot to send nearly everybody but the Jews and their religio-cultural descendants the memo. Bill Lundberg was a better manager than YHWH, and all he cared about were TPS reports.

As for the sexual exclusivity part of it, marriages also reduce confusion about sexual access—as it's very common for cultures to prohibit adultery among married individuals, in simplistic terms a wedding ceremony serves the purpose of saying "hey, from now one nobody else should be fucking these people, as long as they stay married". I was going to suggest that this can have the effect of reducing jealousy, but as many of these same cultures have no problem with unmarried individuals having sex with whichever other unmarried individuals want to have sex with them, the problem of jealousy (which can turn deadly in some cultures) isn't averted in unmarried individuals. Anyone else care to fill this part in?

in simple terms

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 16, 2010 7:23 PM

Kw*k's entry in the undiagrammable sentence contest (link above via Owlmirror):

Anyway, I could pick out, at random, ten people in a New York City subway car, and am certain that they would all agree with the observations made by myself, some people I have worked with over at the World Science Festival, and others that, regrettably, Militant Atheists can and do behave like the fundamentalist religious nuts thaty they condemn.

Posted by: Dania | June 16, 2010 7:26 PM

Sven's baby graph left me all nostalgic so I had to go back and skim through the comments in the earlier episodes of The Thread...

This was probably the first sign of what would become Sven's obsession with Thread Statistics. Looked like such an innocent comment at the time... And now we have this.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 16, 2010 7:28 PM

...Anyone else care to fill this part in?

in simple terms

Oops. Let's call that junk DNA from a replication error.

Posted by: David Marjanović | June 16, 2010 7:31 PM

That abstract

The entire paper is free-as-in-beer.

sez turtles are the sister-group to diapsids, right? So they're not with archosaurs or (gah) lepidosaurs--they're basal to both. Right?

Yessssss.

So Sauropsida (aka Reptilia) is valid

I don't know what you mean.

and turtles could be plain old anapsids, yes?

Not merely "could"; they are.

(if both holes of synapsids are derived)

That looks very likely, though intermediate forms are still lacking.

That's just the way I like it...

Me too.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 16, 2010 7:34 PM

Has anyone seen Hannah Free, The World Unseen, Mary and Max or Virtuality?

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | June 16, 2010 7:36 PM

Re marriage: I'm not sure whether I would bother to get married, even if I were ever to have a long-term relationship (which remains a hypothetical). The historic institution of marriage has too much patriarchal baggage associated with it for my liking, and I don't see why I would need or want my relationship to be sanctioned by the state, or to be able to dissolve it only with the state's permission.

Honestly, I think civil partnerships should be available to opposite-sex as well as same-sex couples (as they are in France with the pacte civile). I'd rather enter into one of those than a "traditional" marriage.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 16, 2010 7:40 PM

It's like watching Wile E. chasing the road runner

That's exactly right.

Posted by: Knockgoats | June 16, 2010 7:42 PM

I've already discussed with my children how I plan to terminate my existence rather than live for years with dementia and ruining their lives, should it happen to me.

I'm fortunate in there being no history of Alzheimer's in my family. My father developed MID in the last few years of his life (as a complication of type 1 diabetes, which he developed, unusually, in his 40s), but died before it got really bad - even so, I think the strain shortened my mother's life, and spoiled her last years. She was still completely lucid when I last saw her, a few hours before she died. I hope I'd have the sense to end my life if I began developing symptoms, but one of the unfortunate facts about dementia is that ability to accurately assess one's own cognitive state is often one of the first things to go. It's possible new diagnostic methods will get round this in the near future as far as Alzheimer's is concerned.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 16, 2010 7:44 PM

I don't know what you mean.

That's because it didn't make any sense. Yeah, I read the paper; Thanks! Fig.2 is gorgeous and the last paragraph is certainly a gauntlet thrown before the molecular types. My one regret is that I won't get to use the word "procolophonoid" as much.

(well, there's still "lophotrochozoa")

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 16, 2010 7:51 PM

Honestly, I think civil partnerships should be available to opposite-sex as well as same-sex couples (as they are in France with the pacte civile). I'd rather enter into one of those than a "traditional" marriage.

I want my marriage to end feuding between two clans and unite my people under my rule, which will usher in a new era of peace and prosperity.

(I also want my funeral to involve riots between my acolytes and my enemies, who will likely have been responsible for my death, but that's for another discussion. Not sure if the era of peace and prosperity will end with the riots, or just be a blip. C'mon people: you'll have to take some responsibility for yourselves after I'm gone.)

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 16, 2010 8:12 PM

I posted this on the iris thread for the tune (Iris, Miles Davis 5tet), but I thought the visuals belonged better over here. The centipede woman @ 3:07 creeped me out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA0oHDUlRkk

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 16, 2010 8:19 PM

Betelguese:

Don't have any new release suggestions at all unfortunately, but I'd recommend watching Monsoon Wedding

Monsoon Wedding was a wonderful movie!

Okay, I've added The World Unseen, Wolke Neun, Tokyo Sonata, Tales from the Script, Girly (Cheesy horror from 1970), Taxidermia, Mary and Max and Hannah Free.

Posted by: Aaron Baker | June 16, 2010 8:26 PM

For a slight change of pace, here are some Qur'anic contributions to cosmology:

We have decked out the lower heaven with constellations. They guard it against rebellious devils, so that they may not listen in to those on high. Meteors are hurled at them from every side; then, driven away, they are consigned to an eternal scourge. Eavesdroppers are pursued by fiery comets[from Sura 37].

I feel guilty about any urge to sneer at premodern ideas of the natural world; but, all the same, I almost burst out laughing when I read this. It is all of a piece with Muhammad's unabashedly physical descriptions of heaven and hell--about which I'll have something to say later.

In addition to heaven and hell, I'll also post something on the "Satanic verses." I warn everyone now that they're not as sexy as they sound--although three goddesses are involved.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 16, 2010 8:31 PM

Didn't we cover films in another thread?

I liked Mamet's The Spanish Prisoner.

Okay, leaving the office in search of beer.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 16, 2010 8:41 PM

Betelguese:

Ooh also, Caramel. I think its Lebanese. If you've seen it, double lol.

Sukkar banat. :D An interesting film, that.

AnthonyK:

Favourite films?

No, no, and no. I was looking for some help on New Releases. I've been a movie fan from a *very* young age and I'm now 52 years old. I have seen a fuckton of movies, trust me. Even the seriously weird ones. I have a thing for the seriously weird ones. So no favourites lists please, I'm not trying to take over the thread here. ;)

Posted by: AnthonyK | June 16, 2010 8:48 PM

OK, but check out In Bruges which is pretty recent, and very good. And yes, seriously weird.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 16, 2010 8:53 PM

I'm on netflix under my alias :P

You know, the one on my tax return.

If you want to look at what I've rated. Most people do not share movie tastes with me though.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 16, 2010 8:57 PM

Ol'Greg:

If you want to look at what I've rated. Most people do not share movie tastes with me though.

Thanks, I'll take a look. I'd be willing to be we share more movie taste than you think.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 16, 2010 9:03 PM

I'm kind of in the same place though. Only a few *new* films I'm even remotely interested in seeing and a couple of them AFAIK aren't on DVD yet or I don't know in what country they've been released.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | June 16, 2010 9:19 PM

The Wedding Singer

I finally got the chance to watch this at a graduation party.

I'm into forgien language films for some reason. I'm not so much into the popular films, which often puts me at odds with my friends.

Here's an Inuit film I liked:
Atanarjuat
And for a beautiful battle scene:
Red Cliff

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | June 16, 2010 9:21 PM

My 'saved' list on netflix is pretty long, and there's no telling when stuff will be available.

Oh, how I despise the saved list that will never materialize. I would hurt somebody to get Viva Blackpool in a USA region format. *sigh*

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 16, 2010 9:36 PM

Gyeong Hwa Pak:

Here's an Inuit film I liked: Atanarjuat

Ooh, added that. Thank you!

Carlie:

Oh, how I despise the saved list that will never materialize. I would hurt somebody to get Viva Blackpool in a USA region format. *sigh*

I hear ya. I've been waiting on Temps Mort for at least a year.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | June 16, 2010 9:56 PM

Die already, broad!!!

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 16, 2010 10:34 PM

pistoreyu :P

Relax! I know, that's not Wagner. In fact, I've sung that song!

Perhaps I'll die now :D:D:D

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 16, 2010 10:44 PM

(Yes, I'm new here.)

Welcome to Pharyngula, TTH.

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | June 16, 2010 10:48 PM

Marjanović and DiMilo:

More importantly, both morphological and molecular data are sensitive to taxon sampling, homology issues, rate heterogeneity and missing data owing to evolutionary change (Lee et al. 2008).

Word, homies. Word.

Let the morphologists and gene jocks unite! And figure out what to do about dem turtles,

Had a sad moment today. I swerved to avoid a red-eared slider, and the guy behind me crunched him. Had a happy moment. My first grad student defended her thesis.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | June 16, 2010 10:56 PM

My first grad student defended her thesis.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | June 16, 2010 11:05 PM

My first grad student defended her thesis.

Oh, you wacky academics and your expressions. To me it brings to mind the image of a determined student with sword in hand, fending off angry villagers armed with pitchforks.

Posted by: Loim | June 16, 2010 11:30 PM

I hope this doesn't derail the topic too much:

Whenever I bring up any kind of science topic at work (retail), most people are intrigued and are very interested in what I am saying. However, there are two people at work who just don't seem to understand how science works, or complete refuse to try to understand how it works.

The first one would have to be as close to a fundamentalist christian that I have ever met so far in my life (in person that is, I have obviously seen/read the ones posted here). Whenever the topic of science comes up and there is a moment for him to throw in a comment it is always the same one: "Science is a lie".

It always upsets me to hear him say that. It is ironic for two reasons: 1) The obvious improvement in his life due to modern technology which has been improved thanks to science and 2) the bigger irony comes from the medical advancements in relation to science, since, if it weren't for our understanding of the human body and the brain, he may not of lived as long as he did. You see, he was born with (and I wish I could remember correctly) either a tumor or a malformation of some kind in his brain which was removed/healed by a neurosurgeon. Whenever I pursue this topic, however, He can only think of thanking God for 1) Allowing him to meet the neurosurgeon, 2) that God gave the neurosurgeon the information he needed to cure him and 3) Allowed the surgery to go through without any complications without ever once acknowledging how much the scientific method would have played in his surgery or recovery.

The second individual is a bit easier to stand and reply to. I would consider him more of your conspiracy theory type of individual. A truth, anti-vaxer, ectera. When science is brought up he always goes to the default position of: "But science is always changing its opinion!". I never can find the time (I am at work remember) to properly respond to him in length of why science is a bit more than just opinion. However, I would at least like to tell him that he does actually respect people who do change their opinions in the face of evidence such as a juror who is given new evidence in a trial as not to convict the wrong person.

Some of my questions are:

1) Are my responses that I have written here concrete enough to at least say in a public environment?
2) Should I just not bother? (I really hope your answers are no since that seems almost like forfeiting)

and completely unrelated:

3) What are some good science websites/magazines I should invest some time into? I know Pharyngula has many people from different walks of life and professions so I imagine this would be a great place to ask! =)

Thank you all for your time/responses!

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | June 17, 2010 12:29 AM

@ Patricia Ignorant Slut -

While you are off being sluttish at the Black Sheep Gathering, investigate the availability of Finn fleeces. I bought one 6 weeks ago and am about 75% of the way through combing and spinning it. Astonishingly, naughtily, deliciously yummy stuff.

That is, if you are a spinner. If you're not, I recommend taking it up, as it requires fun toys like these Viking combs, which are very very useful for resolving disputes with godbots and other annoying types. (DaughterSpawn added to a demo I was doing with wool combs recently by pointing out that the ancient Romans used them to flay people alive, which meant that I had to explain to the Cub Scouts what the word "flay" meant.)

If you get really into handspinning with a drop spindle, you can also purchase a mini-lathe, which can be used to make both spindles and naughty toys.

Posted by: Kristjan Wager | June 17, 2010 12:46 AM

In case anyone care:

Regarding meeting up in Ø:rsted Ø:lbar tonight - due to Jadehawk's delay, I'm picking up David at the airport, and won't be able to be at the bar at 8pm.

I'll make sure that David and I get there as fast as possible, but it will be an hour or two late.

Posted by: Patricia, OM | June 17, 2010 1:26 AM

Mattir - I'm really looking forawrd to seeing the Jacob sheep for the first time...and carrying on a love affair.

These things happen. *smirk*

Posted by: windy | June 17, 2010 2:20 AM

I want great funeral games

How about Pictionary, or Twister

Posted by: Rorschach | June 17, 2010 2:42 AM

Oh, i see ! Shit.Should we transfer some money to her or something ?

Posted by: Owlmirror | June 17, 2010 3:25 AM

Whenever the topic of science comes up and there is a moment for him to throw in a comment it is always the same one: "Science is a lie".

I'd be tempted to be equally blunt and respond with "Religion is a lie". Why is he the only one who's allowed to be utterly rude?

Whenever I pursue this topic, however, He can only think of thanking God for 1) Allowing him to meet the neurosurgeon, 2) that God gave the neurosurgeon the information he needed to cure him and 3) Allowed the surgery to go through without any complications without ever once acknowledging how much the scientific method would have played in his surgery or recovery.

Why does he want to be alive? If he thinks that God is real, then he should have preferred to die and ascend to heaven.

----

When science is brought up he always goes to the default position of: "But science is always changing its opinion!". I never can find the time (I am at work remember) to properly respond to him in length of why science is a bit more than just opinion. However, I would at least like to tell him that he does actually respect people who do change their opinions in the face of evidence such as a juror who is given new evidence in a trial as not to convict the wrong person.

I like that analogy, and I may even steal it in future.

I realize that this is a bit long to be a response, but perhaps it's something you could distill and summarize:

  http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | June 17, 2010 4:09 AM

Re #308, and 'changing its opinion', my opinion, for what it's worth:

This is just what sane people do. Since no one knows everything, there's always new information coming, your position should be ready to change to accommodate this appropriately, based also on what you do already know, and how confidently you now it.

It's dogmatic religions (like your co-worker's, apparently) that are the outlier and the oddity here. And they only achieve this very telling feature (and identifying characteristic) of not changing by lying their asses off to themselves and others about what they actually do and do not know.

With a little more complexity: in the real world, we grade the quality and certainty of our information and the conclusions we have drawn from them along a continuum--from the very, very, very confidently held, due to reams of repeated and mutually reinforcing evidence (as in, especially, the larger kernels and broader strokes of the larger theories organizing scientific information--the modern synthesis in biology, relativity in physics), through to the far more tentative and uncertain (many remaining fine details in the metabolic functioning of specific organisms, the precise extent of the Oort cloud). This holds across domains of knowledge generally considered as falling within the natural science and beyond--you may be highly confident that putting your hand on a hot burner will hurt, and are unlikely even to recheck this axiom; in contrast, you have at best a statistically-weighted guess as to what the weather's likely to do tomorrow morning, and if it matters to you (say, because you're going sailing), you may recheck your evidence regularly to revise your prediction.

So, actually, and accordingly, it's not precisely accurate either to say that science is always changing its mind: on certain things, confidence is high enough that science only very, very infrequently refines the existing knowledge base, at best, and those refinements tend to be minor, and for good reasons. In other areas, yes, things are less settled, and move more rapidly.

... not that this on its own is probably much help for presenting to your co-worker. But anyway, that's roughly my internal organization of the salient issues surrounding that question.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | June 17, 2010 4:15 AM

... oh, also, that should read, in the first paragraph, 'how confidently you know it. And yes, for what my opinion counts for: I think you should absolutely should bother, to the degree that you have the energy and the stomach for it, at least. You're not personally responsible if your co-worker sees fit to live and die a benighted twit, but I think people do at least have to stand up for sanity, stake out their ground as being in favour of it. And even if you seem to fail even to get through to him in the least way (very possible, in my experience), think of it as a baby step in changing the culture, y'know: making actually giving a damn about reality a bit more fashionable and socially acceptable again.

Posted by: David Marjanović | June 17, 2010 4:22 AM

Shala, I missed the announcement of your graduation. Congratulations!

More importantly, both morphological and molecular data are sensitive to taxon sampling, homology issues, rate heterogeneity and missing data owing to evolutionary change (Lee et al. 2008).

Word, homies. Word.

Oh yes. Every word of it.

"Science is a lie".

That's a category error. Science is a method, how can science be a lie?

Also, comment 320 in spades.

Shit.Should we transfer some money to her or something ?

Given her near-complete lack of Internet or even telephone access, I don't see how...

And by now, I hope, she's in some bed or other and dreams of something pleasant.

I realize that this is a bit long to be a response, but perhaps it's something you could distill and summarize:

Just quote this part:

The young specialist in English Lit, having quoted me, went on to lecture me severely on the fact that in every century people have thought they understood the universe at last, and in every century they were proved to be wrong. It follows that the one thing we can say about our modern "knowledge" is that it is wrong. The young man then quoted with approval what Socrates had said on learning that the Delphic oracle had proclaimed him the wisest man in Greece. "If I am the wisest man," said Socrates, "it is because I alone know that I know nothing." the implication was that I was very foolish because I was under the impression I knew a great deal.

My answer to him was, "John, when people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | June 17, 2010 5:14 AM

I made a delicious baked vanilla cheesecake on Monday (using a recipe from a book). It turned out very well. :-)

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | June 17, 2010 5:29 AM

So, Walton, if I ever manage to get over to the UK can you cook for me? :) Oh, and maybe try not to notice how I use my right hand for the fork? Which reminds me, how do y'all eat rice over there*?

*I noticed the fork in left hand, knife in right hand while in Germany and it's kinda scary. It's like everyone is prepared to defend their food!

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | June 17, 2010 5:37 AM

So, Walton, if I ever manage to get over to the UK can you cook for me? :)

Sure! I've become quite a good cook. It's one of those skills I wish I'd taken up earlier in life.

I noticed the fork in left hand, knife in right hand while in Germany and it's kinda scary. It's like everyone is prepared to defend their food!

Do Americans do this the other way round? I'd never realised. (The fact that I entirely missed this quirk is probably testament to my poor observational skills, given that I have visited the US... Sherlock Holmes, I am not.) :-/

Posted by: Kristjan Wager | June 17, 2010 5:46 AM

Walton, Americans tend to cut up their food and then switch their fork over to their other hand - see here

Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier | June 17, 2010 5:56 AM

I noticed the fork in left hand, knife in right hand while in Germany and it's kinda scary.

Interesting. I never knew they did it differently in Europe. Canadians (at least from my experience) do it the same way as Americans.

Posted by: Knockgoats | June 17, 2010 6:14 AM

Walton,

Thanks for the good wishes. I'm currently on the train to London, first leg of a 4-leg journey to Copenhagen. Unfortunately my lower back pain has chosen this day to return, but I will endeavour to subdue it with willpower ibuprofen.

On Americans and cutlery: for some bizarre reason, most of them are unable to use two items of cutlery at once! They cur up the food with a knife, then put that down and pick up the fork.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | June 17, 2010 6:29 AM

Frankly, I use the fork in my right hand because I'm right-handed, and I'd rather have the utensil that repeatedly approaches my face held in my dominant hand. I do use both a fork and knife simultaneously, though, and the knife stays in my left hand unless there's a particularly difficult cut.

I never understood the idea of putting things on the convex side of one's fork.

Posted by: Dania | June 17, 2010 6:42 AM

fork (tines curving down)

Wait, I think I'm getting confused here. When I do this the tines are curving up. I think. Well, the rice goes on the concave side.

I use the fork with the convex side facing up to hold the things I want to cut with the knife and to lift them. In this case the tines are curving down.

Yeah, I got it backwards. Sorry.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | June 17, 2010 6:49 AM

Also, we love eating with our hands. Pizza, hamburgers, french fries, fried chicken, wraps, sandwiches are mainstays of the American diet, and they don't require any cutlery at all!

I eat almost all of those things (except sandwiches, which I don't eat at all) with a knife and fork, whenever possible. I don't like to get grease on my fingers.

This isn't a British thing particularly: I'm just a bit weird. I have lots of bizarre compulsions and am fussy about some really, really strange things. (I really hate plastic yoghurt pots, for example. I quite like yoghurt, but don't eat it because I get really icked out, for no rational reason whatsoever, by looking at the container. Not to mention the insane and utterly arbitrary range of foods I won't eat. For instance, I can't eat spaghetti - even though I like every other form of pasta, and I do like noodles, which are virtually the same as spaghetti. And this is only scratching the surface of my weird food hangups.)

Posted by: Dania | June 17, 2010 7:04 AM

Also, we love eating with our hands.

Have you ever tried to de-shell a steamed shrimp on your plate using fork and knife?

That's probably the only thing that really makes me want to use my hands. I guess it's a good thing that I don't like shrimp that much, because I don't like eating with my hands at all. Not even pizza. Sandwiches... they have to wrapped in something. It's not only Walton who is a bit weird here, you know. ;)

Posted by: Weed Monkey | June 17, 2010 7:07 AM

I need some kind of a mnemonic for concave and convex, had to check the words from a dictionary - again.
Walton, why not purchase your yoghurt in one litre cartons? It's cheaper that way, too.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | June 17, 2010 7:10 AM

You use [fork and knife] together. That way you're not chasing the food round the plate.

QFT.

The rational way to eat rice (unless you have a bowl you can pick up and chopsticks to shovel it in) is to hold the fork with tines curving up, and push the rice onto it from the side with the knife.

Which is how I do it, typically.

I can't eat American-style rice or fried rice with chopsticks; it needs to be at least somewhat sticky.

Posted by: John Morales | June 17, 2010 7:13 AM

Weed Monkey,

I need some kind of a mnemonic for concave and convex, had to check the words from a dictionary - again.

Concave? Caves open inwards.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | June 17, 2010 7:17 AM

Ol'Greg:

Pre-cutting food isn't so much "low class" as "infantile" around here, even if you do it yourself.

Posted by: Dania | June 17, 2010 7:18 AM

Put it this way, if my parents had ever seen me scrape anything onto the concave side of my fork with a knife I'd have been chastised.

My parents never cared about etiquette that much. I just try to find the most effective way to get what's on the plate into my mouth using a fork on the left hand and a knife on the right...

BTW, the odd habit of using the fork with the tines curving down, as Dania does, is a hangover from 19th-century etiquette

I don't! I just got confused. See #342.

I need some kind of a mnemonic for concave and convex, had to check the words from a dictionary - again.

And I should have used those words to begin with because they're less confusing to me, for some reason.

Posted by: John Morales | June 17, 2010 7:20 AM

Apropos of nothing, other opposites that people seem to have trouble with are pronate/supinate and adductor/abductor.

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | June 17, 2010 7:39 AM

Two movies I enjoyed in the last year:

Katarin Varga
An Education

and one I was booked to see when Falmouth Poly closed it's doors without warning :-(

Sex & Drugs & Rock & Roll (Ian Dury biopic)

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | June 17, 2010 7:48 AM

Yee Haaa
I can sign in from work!

Miss M has joined a kitting group and is busy knitting flowers for their next project - decorating the Nine Madiens stone circle on midummer eve. Not sure what to make of this. Woo or Irony? Irony or Woo?

Last year the group knitted a multitude of mice and decorated Mousehole (the village), so maybe not Woo?

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 17, 2010 8:02 AM

WTF is a "kitting group"

I think it's similar to a dogging club, but a bit more discreet.

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | June 17, 2010 8:06 AM

I think it's similar to a dogging club, but a bit more discreet.

Well thanks for that Sven, I feel so much better now.

Hmmm. perhaps I'll tag along after all...

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 17, 2010 8:22 AM

I eat almost all of those things (except sandwiches, which I don't eat at all) with a knife and fork, whenever possible. I don't like to get grease on my fingers.

I guess when Walton visits the US I shouldn't smoke a couple racks of ribs.

That's ok there are other options.

Posted by: Knockgoats | June 17, 2010 8:27 AM

I don't! I just got confused. See #342.

Yes, sorry Dania. I only saw #342 after my posting.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 17, 2010 8:31 AM

I csn't stand drinking soda that's been in a can. I'm not crazy about soda to begin with so almost no one knows I have this obsession with cans. And it really is just the sight of the can.

I hate the thought of drinking from a can, but if some one had opened canned soda without my knowing and poured it into a glass I'd probably be fine.

Stupid, but this is a girl who had an irrational terror of staircases so I'd doing greaaaaat.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 17, 2010 8:35 AM

of course, it's also possible that anybody who might be motivated enough to post that sketch would be unlikely to know how to spell 'trough'...

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 17, 2010 8:40 AM

I'm also a bit iffy about any food that requires bathing soon after eating it. My current state of facial hair (i.e. some rather than none) makes it even worse. I've got to be a lot more careful with my morning porridge on the weekends.

Yeah I'm sportin' a rather thick set of handlebars right now and I've got to be diligent about the cleanup after some foods.

Funny thing is I have a thing about any food remnants on my hands or face to the point of obsession even during the eating process.

For example, if I'm eating some salty crunchy snack I almost obsessively clean my hands between each trip into the bowl/bag/etc.. I hate that feeling of fine salt/stuff on my fingers.

Same with eating food with my hands like ribs, wings, sandwiches, etc.. I don't just let it ride between bites. Have to wipe/clean it everytime.

Same with the face, though this is more normal I would guess. After each bite there it is a thorough wiping with napkins. Can't handle anything on my face hanging out.

Once I'm finished of course there is a clean up session as well, but some people just wait until they are done. I can't handle it.

HOWEVER

I still eat food that causes these types of necessary clean ups because I enjoy the food and the sanitation gymnastics I have to go through don't really bother me that much. It's just part of the process.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | June 17, 2010 8:55 AM

Okay, time for buckling down. Might finish before closing time tonite, but no more posts or distractions.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 17, 2010 8:57 AM

Okay, time for buckling down. Might finish before closing time tonite, but no more posts or distractions.

suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure

Posted by: Dania | June 17, 2010 9:13 AM

Like that. See, we can handle eating slowly enough to rest our hands and utensils between bites!

Hey, but we can do that too! It's just that we rest both hands and both utensils at the same time. And then we pick up and use both of them to handle the food more efficiently.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | June 17, 2010 9:16 AM

Carlie wrote:

I never understood how our way of eating is considered more barbaric - isn't it more polite NOT to be brandishing utensils in both hands at all times during a meal?

Really, I think trying to apply logic to a lot of food and dining cultural practices (a separate fork for salad? really?) is just going to result in headaches.

These days because I live by myself (and, as a result, almost always dine alone) I don't usually have to think about such things. And then there's the fact that the vast majority of my preferred kinds of food is fork-only - pasta, stir-fry with noodles, curry with rice etc. - I'm rarely using both hands anyway.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 17, 2010 9:22 AM

Back to the important subject of turtle origins. I am a systematics spectator, but this is the most glaring example I know of of a molecular/morphological discrepancy in reconstructed phylogenies. Apparently the power of the morphological studies is greatly enhanced by inclusion of key fossils, an approach unavailable to gel-jocks, who are forever burdened with long-branch problems. This makes me doubt (even more) the molecular trees. Is this attitude warranted?

Posted by: Flex | June 17, 2010 9:24 AM

Americans cut all their food in advance, while Europeans are supposed to cut it in real time – cut one bite off and eat it.

I've never done this. Part of the enjoyment of eating the food is cutting it and loading it onto the fork. I have occasionally seen other Americans doing this, but it's not all that common in my crowd. Maybe it's a generational thing.

Could it be a hold-over from parents cutting up their children's food? I'm still surprised when a parent cuts up the food for their 4-year old. Invariably all the food gets pushed together, the parent's meal gets cold (and loses flavor), and there is a bunch of awkward reaching around and mashing things up. I was using a knife and fork properly by then, why do some parents keep doing this?

Of course, I was also taught to tip the soup bowl away from me when spooning up the dregs to reduce the chance of dripping or spilling soup. I don't know anyone else who does that.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 17, 2010 9:25 AM

Hmm, it's news to me that the American way to eat is to cut everything up first

Me too. Never have, do or will eat this way.

Posted by: Weed Monkey | June 17, 2010 9:26 AM

This is weird: Teacher wants sex with students to say sorry for Japanese invasion

Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD) | June 17, 2010 9:37 AM

@392
I didn't know she was also a teacher. Was that before or after her adult film career, I wonder?

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | June 17, 2010 9:43 AM

Hmm, it's news to me that the American way to eat is to cut everything up first

Yeah... I don't eat that way... nor does anyone I know. But just to be sure I asked this guy and he confirmed, it is not the 'American Way'.

Posted by: Ewan R | June 17, 2010 9:48 AM

Sven:-

It's not. You have misread.

Americans cut all their food in advance, while Europeans are supposed to cut it in real time – cut one bite off and eat it.

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one.

Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD) | June 17, 2010 9:50 AM

One of the better tricks I am using for my diet change in eating and living is to use chopsticks whenever possible. It slows me down so that I rarely finish everything on my plate.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | June 17, 2010 9:55 AM

Food normally eaten with chopsticks is also pre-cut into small bites, just before one starts cooking it. :)

Speaking of chopsticks, is there a preferred hold? I hold the stationary stick resting on my middle finger, but I've seen a lot of people rest it on their ring and pinky fingers instead (or maybe it's all three last fingers?)

And how do you count on your fingers - thumb first, or last?

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 17, 2010 9:58 AM

I tend to rest the stationary chopstick on my ring finger. I don't know if that's normal or not.

There are lots of foods that are nicer to eat with chopsticks actually.

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | June 17, 2010 10:05 AM

Speaking of chopsticks, is there a preferred hold? I hold the stationary stick resting on my middle finger, but I've seen a lot of people rest it on their ring and pinky fingers instead (or maybe it's all three last fingers?)

Chopsticks befuddle me. I find them cumbersome and inefficient.

I'll be honest, most people I know who use them regularly (that is, outside of oriental eating establishments) do so out of a pretentious sense of "stylishness".

Perhaps it's my own discomfort with my clumsiness in trying to use them, but I always feel this sense of culinary arrogance from chopstick users.

I guess I just don't understand the appeal. I wouldn't shovel my driveway with a broom-handle, or mow my lawn with a scissors. There are better tools available...

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | June 17, 2010 10:11 AM

Ol'Greg -

I'm hoping, of course, that nobody sees right through my little diatribe to realize I'm just clumsy with them and it makes me uncomfortable to use them. ;^)

Posted by: iambilly | June 17, 2010 10:12 AM

Carlie and Ol'Greg:

A friend of mine (who is of Korean descent) told me that the Korean way of using chopsticks is correct and that the Japanese and Chinese just keep getting it wrong. Of course, if she were Japanese or Chinese, I suspect the phrasing would be different. She's shown me the different ways of holding them, and damned if I can tell the difference. When I use them, I tend to keep changing the position of the utensils and my fingers.

Celtic:

For me, the cumbersomeness is a feature, not a bug, as it slows me down.

Posted by: Weed Monkey | June 17, 2010 10:13 AM

And how do you like your potatoes? I heard that Russians don't know how to peel boiled potatoes, because they boil them pre-peeled. I have no idea whether this is true or not.

Now it's time for some more coffee, watching football and my theme song
Weedeater - Weed Monkey

Posted by: iambilly | June 17, 2010 10:20 AM

Weed Monkey:

I never peep my potatoes. Even when making mashed potatoes -- I just dice 'em up, boil 'em, and mash 'em with the peels. Gives it some texture.

My favourite way of dealing with potatoes (not that I eat them all that often any more) is to dice 'em, saute 'em with some good olive oil (slowly so they cook through before burning), and then toss in some garlic and Italian herbs, or some chilis and ions, for the last few minutes.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 17, 2010 10:23 AM

I don't know how to peel a boiled potato because they're boiled pre-peeled. I mean I guess I'd figure it out but why wouldn't you peel it first?

I guess it doesn't actually matter though.

But if I use the red ones I sautee them or cook them with the skins on because they taste good.

I like mashed potatoes with skins in them.

Etiquette is bullshit.

This is what the sole person in the US I have ever met who actually does cut up all their food first says. :P

Posted by: Ewan R | June 17, 2010 10:25 AM

or some chilis and ions

Someone who takes the whole "cooking is just chemistry" to the max.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | June 17, 2010 10:32 AM

I only boil unpeeled potatoes if they are salt potatoes;

Salt potatoes! One of the few good things our shared and . . .distinctive. . .home region has given the world, Carlie. Oh, and also spiedies.

Posted by: Weed Monkey | June 17, 2010 10:35 AM

I guess that must be some weird Northern European thing then. One of the first things I remember learning is how to peel a hot potato on my plate without burning my fingers. It's an essential skill to learn before school age.

Finnish cuisine hasn't advanced too far from potatoes and salted fish all year round :-P

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 17, 2010 10:38 AM

because I like when the yolk gets all over the thing

*visceral shudder*

I don't like it when egg yolk gets all over *anything* at all. This is a personal preference though. I don't like... egg yolk.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 17, 2010 10:40 AM

It backfired one time when all my Indian companions looked at me weird while they shoveled food down twice as quickly with forks and spoons.

This is why my eternally culture-shocked ass just does whatever my friends are doing wrt eating utensils :P

Posted by: Lynna, OM | June 17, 2010 10:47 AM

Bingham County in Idaho is the largest potato-producing county in the United States, according to figures released by educator Bill Bohl at the University of Idaho's Bingham County extension offices, Blackfoot. When J.F. and Theodocia Shelley laid out the Shelley townsite in 1892, Maine was the nation's top potato producer. Idaho's "Famous Potatoes" took that title away from Maine long ago. I don't have the latest figures, but in 2003, Bingham County's potato harvest of nearly 19.6 million hundredweight (a single hundredweight represents 100 pounds of spuds) eclipsed the state of Maine's potato production by almost 2.6 million hundredweight. Put another way, Bingham County's 2003 potato harvest from 60,300 acres yielded slightly less than two billion pounds of spuds.

There's a local basketball team called "The Russets" and there's a Miss Russet competition.

Posted by: MrFire | June 17, 2010 10:52 AM

Ha! I just remembered what the whole cutlery-wielding discussion has been reminding my subconscious of all along: this!

See that and raise you a Blue Raja.

Posted by: JeffreyD | June 17, 2010 11:06 AM

Ambidextrous, albeit left hand dominant*, so almost any way to use utensils is fine with me. By choice, knife in left and fork in right and not switching. When at home, especially alone, everything either gets eaten with chopsticks or a spoon.

From living in Afghanistan and other garden spots, used to eating with hands and with flat bread as sole utensil. Given my left dominance, I sit on that hand with eating with Pushtuns, country Arabs, and the like. Especially when eating out of a common bowl.

Americans cut all their food in advance, while Europeans are supposed to cut it in real time – cut one bite off and eat it.

Nonsense, invalids, the very young and the old and infirm have their food cut up. Normal adults cut and eat as needed.

But hey, I like Opera so what do I know. :^}

*I shoot left and use a fighting knife left hand, right hand is for support of left, either in gripping or using a stick.

Posted by: David Marjanović | June 17, 2010 11:09 AM

Free Internet at Vienna Airport. Who'd'a' thunk.

Chopsticks: I like them, but they don't work for some western kinds of rice the grains of which don't stick together. Picking up single rice grains, or shoveling, is rather difficult with chopsticks.

The faraway country of America and the eating customs of its inhabitants: I blame my English teacher, who taught what I said. I haven't seen a lot of Americans eat...

Back to the important subject of turtle origins.

At last! :-)

I am a systematics spectator, but this is the most glaring example I know of of a molecular/morphological discrepancy in reconstructed phylogenies.

Try true and false gharials. Morphology finds really robust support for the false gharial (Tomistoma) being a crocodylid, convergent on the true gharial (Gavialis*), and for the latter being the sister-group to all other extant crocodiles (crocodiles in the strict sense, and alligators + caimans) together. And yet, every fucking single molecular analysis (and a lot have been done since the early 1990s or earlier) finds true and "false" gharials as sister-groups to the exclusion of everything else! The specialists scream in their sleep!!!

It probably doesn't help that long-snouted fossil crocodylians are a dime a dozen, but it's not like the morphologists had ignored that fact.

With turtles, there isn't only a single coherent signal in the morphological data, even though it now appears that one of them is probably stronger than the other two or three or eight, and even though all of them conflict with both molecular signals**. With gharials, there is no escape from textbook orthodoxy.

* The v is an institutionalized misreading of a handwritten r. We're stuck with it.
** One puts the turtles next to the archosaurs (birds + crocodiles). The other puts them inside the archosaurs, next to the crocs; this is so obviously silly that it tends to be ignored these days, and I guess it hasn't been found by the latest few molecular analyses.

Apparently the power of the morphological studies is greatly enhanced by inclusion of key fossils, an approach unavailable to gel-jocks, who are forever burdened with long-branch problems. This makes me doubt (even more) the molecular trees. Is this attitude warranted?

Yes. I suspect that the fast-evolving lepidosaurs, especially the super-fast-evolving squamates, are attracted to the root of the tree, leaving the turtles and the archosaurs alone at the top. The best way to overcome long-branch attraction is to increase the taxon sampling, and that's simply not possible with molecular data.

Of course, morphology has its own problems. Huge swaths of phylogenetically informative characters have been overlooked so far, while others have been counted several times (correlated characters), and models of evolution aren't applicable to morphology, which is sometimes an advantage, but sometimes a serious disadvantage.

When it comes to placental phylogeny, for instance, I trust the molecular signal. More and more larger and larger molecular analyses keep finding the same topology, corroborated by LINE insertions, while there... simply isn't a good morphological analysis of that problem. There isn't, because hundreds of taxa and hundreds or thousands of characters are involved. Several PhD theses are, AFAIK, currently working on that problem piecemeal – in the molecular world, comparable results are attained in a single paper that took perhaps a few months to do. It's similar with crown-group bird phylogeny, though there even the molecular phylogenies are confused and inconsistent with each other.

And how do you count on your fingers - thumb first, or last?

Thumb last on the left hand, then thumb first on the right. But that's just me wanting one continuous arc. Everyone else counts thumb first on both.

I heard that Russians don't know how to peel boiled potatoes, because they boil them pre-peeled.

Huh? I'm familiar with both methods. Both have advantages and disadvantages depending on lots of circumstances...

I never peep my potatoes. Even when making mashed potatoes -- I just dice 'em up, boil 'em, and mash 'em with the peels. Gives it some texture.

Texture? I think you need different potatoes.

Potato peels are bitter and tough. They're not for eating. They simply aren't. OK, I haven't tried red potatoes, but... :-/

dice 'em, saute 'em with some good olive oil (slowly so they cook through before burning), and then toss in some garlic and Italian herbs

:-9

four measly character states for starters

While that's true, most morphological characters have just two states.

I think the real horror in molecular phylogenetics is alignment. You can let a computer program do it, in which case it gets done according to phenetic, not phylogenetic, criteria; or you can do it by eye, in which case it's an art and not a science (at least in practice); or you can take a computer-made alignment and "correct it by hand", combining the best and the worst of both approaches.

I don't know how to peel a boiled potato

It's actually easier, because the peel comes off more easily. You only need to be able to handle steaming hot potatoes... I'm not.

Potatoes cooked for any other use than mashing/grating or salt potatoes I bake

You never eat steamed (and obviously peeled) potatoes just so?

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 17, 2010 11:20 AM

Given my left dominance, I sit on that hand with eating with Pushtuns, country Arabs, and the like. Especially when eating out of a common bowl.

Mixed-dominance here, but left-handed for most activities involving fine-motor coordination. Took me months to train my right hand for eating. Sitting on one's left is a good strategy.

So, once we've fixed all the other human rights issues in the world, we're going to start campaigning for equal treatment of us sinisters, yes?

Posted by: Lynna, OM | June 17, 2010 11:32 AM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#37744567 Link is to a Rachel Maddow show. She is blamed for making Rand Paul look bad. [insert smiley face, since Rand Paul is perfectly capable of making himself look bad without any outside help]

Dick Armey said Rachel's show on MSNBC is not a legit news program. Rachel is delightfully tough, and she followed up with a show that poked holes in both Rand Paul and Dick Armey. Well done, Rachel.

Dick Armey advises Republicans to stick to being interviewed on Fox, and not to even give an interview on Meet the Press, let alone on Rachel Maddow.

The point was made by another journalist that extreme right-wing candidates have some very unpopular views, unpopular even with regular Republicans. It's essential that candidates keep these views under wraps. Being questioned by hosts who are not sycophants ... well that's just going to cause all kinds of trouble.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 17, 2010 11:35 AM

decorum dictates even I don't share my rather draconian rules about bodily fluids generated during sex here—at least not now

Regretting reading that passage as I was taking a bite of my soybean, basil, cherry tomato and BUTTERMILK salad.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 17, 2010 11:54 AM

I was like "wheee... boy oh boy do I feel white and ignorant right about now!

One of the legacies of colonialism (maybe? Probably?) in East Africa is that there's a sense that whites can do no wrong, even when they're obviously doing wrong. My experiences with Buganda people living in Kampala is that they were almost Canadian in their obsequiousness. I can't recall all the times I committed some sort of faux pas and noticed the looks on the faces of the people around me, only to be 'reassured': "Eh, it is okay. You are white. It is we who are backward!" Though there were some lines one didn't cross. If I stepped into a store and said something like "Hi! Can I get some stamps?" I would be met with an icy glare and a response like "And HOW are YOU today, SIR?" (The tradition is to make pleasant, greeting small talk for a few minutes before conducting business. North Americans are by default very rude. But not 'backward'.) Then I'd have to backtrack and make small talk before asking for my damn stamps.

Regretting reading that passage as I was taking a bite of my soybean, basil, cherry tomato and BUTTERMILK salad.

Ha-ha! A friend of mine once used a convenient glass of water to spit into after fellating her boyfriend. The next morning, said boyfriend woke up thirsty and reached without looking for a sip of water...

But that's not what I'm talking about.

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | June 17, 2010 11:57 AM

Oh, and also spiedies.

Josh, OSGOM, and Carlie...

Also, for those that crave the occasional artery clogging pile of diner goodness, the Garbage Plate.

Posted by: MrFire | June 17, 2010 12:06 PM

decorum dictates even I don't share my rather draconian rules about bodily fluids generated during sex here—at least not now

That's right. Best to keep the urge under pressure, let the sensation swell to bursting point, then blow your top in a glorious orgasm of TMI.

I promise: we'll lap it right up, too.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 17, 2010 12:13 PM

I've never understood spitting.

Gross. All sex is inherently gross and filthy.

Turns out the trick is not to have some one's hand holding your head down like they were drowning a cat.

Boy, we just don't like the same kind of sex at all. Why first thing I do if I think I'm going to have a good night is stop by the store for a few condoms and the pound for a few strays.






Too far? Yes, I think that might have been too far.

Posted by: Weed Monkey | June 17, 2010 12:17 PM

Gross. All sex is inherently gross and filthy.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 17, 2010 12:19 PM

I'm sure there are some asphyxiophiles out there that do.

Yeah. There's that whole thing in "recent" porn with the forceful blow job to choking and even vomiting thing I just don't get.

At all

not even a little.

Creeps me the fuck out honestly

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 17, 2010 12:21 PM

All these facebook connections.....

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 17, 2010 12:30 PM

Brownian, OK, so clearly you were in East Africa--Kenya? Tanzania? Uganda? I spent a few months traveling around Kenya and Tanzania on my way home from Peace Corps.

All three. My ex was doing her master's fieldwork in Uganda, and she had paternal relatives in Kenya and maternal relatives in TZ. I came along for the ride and had crazy adventures while she interviewed people about family planning.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 17, 2010 12:34 PM

Oh I get it... I even get why some one on the receiving end would put up with it.

Don't get me wrong, I get why some men enjoy it. That's obvious. I even get that the receiver of the "forced" BJ might like it.

I just personally don't get it on a least the one side that I've had experience and I'm going to go out on a limb and guess I wouldn't like being on the other side either.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 17, 2010 12:37 PM

I know, it's quite odd isn't it? I actually feel really awkward when I say anything to some one from here on facebook though. Like... eh... sort of a boundary crossing issue, that.

Yeah I have my BigDumbChimp facebook page I set up a while ago but never check. I'm connected to one person from here on my actual facebook page (and twitter for that matter). We actually have some back and forth.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 17, 2010 12:50 PM

@Brownian, OM #448 not too far, I was finishing my whopper with extra mayo when I read that part of the thread, I swallowed Burger King Dammit Burger King

Is it weird that I'm craving a donair with tzatziki now?

I just personally don't get it on a least the one side that I've had experience and I'm going to go out on a limb and guess I wouldn't like being on the other side either.

I don't even like getting the regular kind o' blowjobs. Friends say it's because I've never gotten a mind-blowing one, but I think it's because I'm more visually than tactilely stimulated, and the image of the top of someone's head bobbing up and down doesn't do anything for me.

I did once have a strange testicular cancer exam that was reminiscent, though. The resident conducting my physical told me she was about to check for testicular cancer and so I lay down on the examining table, stared at the wall, and thought of baseball. This was not how she was used to conducting them, though, so she made me stand up. Then, she crouched down in front of me, yanked my ginch down like a mailbox, and felt me up with her face an inch from my junk.

I feel like I've told this story here before. Well, that's never stopped me before.

For some reason, the image of a gorgeous doctor gently working away on my nuts in a non-sexual way did it for me, and the last thing I thought before nearly poking her eye out was "no jury in the world will convict me if I accidentally get hard right now."

I expect from now on, when a patient lies down on the examining table, stares at the wall, and starts reciting batting averages, she lets him.

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | June 17, 2010 12:56 PM

For some reason, the image of a gorgeous doctor gently working away on my nuts in a non-sexual way did it for me, and the last thing I thought before nearly poking her eye out was "no jury in the world will convict me if I accidentally get hard right now."

Am I the only person that read that but heard a cartoonish "boing" sound in their head?

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | June 17, 2010 1:01 PM

You never eat steamed (and obviously peeled) potatoes just so?

I've never even thought of steaming potatoes! Huh.
But my general preference is to be able to eat the yummy skins whenever possible. The only time I don't like skins on is when they're in a dish where there would be little bits of skins floating around randomly, like mashed or hashed or in a layered sliced dish like potatoes anna.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 17, 2010 1:03 PM

Am I the only person that read that but heard a cartoonish "boing" sound in their head?

That's pretty well the sound it made in my head when it happened.

Posted by: iambilly | June 17, 2010 1:11 PM

Am I the only person that read that but heard a cartoonish "boing" sound in their head?

Well, I was thinking more of a 'sproing' than a 'boing', but yeah, me too. I guess that making it out of junior high doesn't take the junior high out of me.

Posted by: sciencenotes | June 17, 2010 1:27 PM

As far as marriages of >2 people, how about legalizing all marriages of equal numbers of the same sex, plus or minus 1? That way, balanced group marriages or line marriages (a la Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress) would be legal, but not hareems.

Posted by: sciencenotes | June 17, 2010 1:29 PM

I meant to type "equal numbers of adults of the same sex.

Posted by: broboxley OT | June 17, 2010 1:39 PM

@ Jadehawk OM
how long is the layover in ATL?

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | June 17, 2010 1:41 PM

talk to me!!! I'm paying good money for this, so I insist y'all entertain me now! :-p especially since the plan was to be having a beer with the horde at the bar now :-(

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 17, 2010 1:43 PM

HI JADEHAWK!

We've all been really concerned for you. Glad things seem to be looking up.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 17, 2010 1:46 PM

KOPD, you know where to find me if you want to friend me. I'm afraid I'm an insecure friender. I never request!

Makes me feel pushy.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | June 17, 2010 1:51 PM

iambilly: Problem is, there's no objective way to determine mental age, so we have to assume that it correlates with physical age in some meaningful way. (Exceptions exist, of course, but in general it's true to within a few years.)

Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD) | June 17, 2010 1:53 PM

I'm afraid I'm an insecure friender. I never request!
Makes me feel pushy.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | June 17, 2010 1:56 PM

blf: It's true, as long as you don't leave the airport, and if you don't have to change terminals.

Posted by: iambilly | June 17, 2010 1:59 PM

there's no objective way to determine mental age, so we have to assume that it correlates with physical age in some meaningful way

And by the time you know them well enough to realize that emotional and physical age are not even close to equel, they already know your phone number, email, and where you live. Or, like (((Wife))), you're already married.

-------

Jadehawk:

You have my sympathy. Coming back from a fire in Oregon, I ended up stuck in Atlanta for a total of 31 hours. I did have a hotel for both nights, but no access to my baggage (they had taken a different route home (and were home a day-and-a-half before me)). Keep smiling and thinking of all the stories you can tell as others buy you beers.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 17, 2010 2:00 PM

Me, too. But I guess I don't mind being pushy with you since I'm sending you a request now.

Woohoo! Now I can send you an email some time and then obsessively wonder if I've made you uncomfortable. And then ask you, making you uncomfortable, and the obsessively wonder why I did that...

lol

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 17, 2010 2:00 PM

Oh, Jadehawk, keep on truckin'. All will be awesome when you reach your destination.

@#472: I like that idea, sciencenotes, but that would make marriages among three or more guys (but no girls) or three or more girls (but no guys) illegal? I suppose there'll be a market for 'token' opposite-sex spouses to legitimise same-sex ménages.

Brownian, you're giving me a giggle fit!

Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD) | June 17, 2010 2:04 PM

making you uncomfortable

Posted by: iambilly | June 17, 2010 2:06 PM

Joe Barton (R-Texas):

I apologize ... I think it is a tragedy of the first proportion that a private corporation can be subjected to what I would characterize as a shakedown, in this case a $20 billion shakedown ... I apologize ...

A Republican congressman (senior minority leader of the Energy and Commerce Committee) apologized twice to a foreign oil company because the oil company is expected to clean up after themselves. I hope this makes it into every campaign at the House and Senate level.

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | June 17, 2010 2:08 PM

John Morales,

Apropos of nothing, other opposites that people seem to have trouble with are pronate/supinate and adductor/abductor.

I keep pronate and suppinate separate by remembering that hands are pronate when playing piano. It works for me. :)

David,

The transatlantic difference is, as mentioned, that Americans cut all their food in advance,

No one I know does this except for parents who are cutting food for children. Apparently (I think I read it on Wikipedia last night) the difference in utensile usage evolved because forks were not in common useage when the colonies were founded, so we developed our style over here while Europe developed their own.

The whole chopsticks thing is really annoying. I can use them, but it slows eating down so much that it takes forever to finish a small plate of food. This is, of course, probably because I am not terribly good with chopsticks.

Brownian,

I've never understood spitting. Gross. All sex is inherently gross and filthy.

That and semen tastes absolutely disgusting. The first urge many of us have is to spit out something that tastes like that. I have found Ol'Greg's solution of by passing the taste buds all together to be the most efficient method of dealing with that nastiness. Of course some people aren't very fastidious and the penis itself tastes bad. Oh, terrible memories, how I hate thee. :P

I could write way too much about my own sex rules, but suffice it to say that most of them are not about sex being gross in and of itself, but with my fear of getting an infection in my delicate bits. All the thrusting and such means you'd better be freaking clean first.

RBDC,

Creeps me the fuck out honestly

You are not alone. The bf thinks it's seriously creepy to, as the locals say, "push head for head."

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | June 17, 2010 2:16 PM

Ok, KOPD, adding to the pile-on, I sent you an email.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 17, 2010 2:17 PM

It doesn't taste *that* bad. I gotta be honest, I've eaten worse.

Although I wouldn't drink a milk glass full of it.

I have a weird ability to shut down some of my sensory input for a little bit though, kind of numb myself.

I think it's owed to a combination of trauma and also having some serious phobias/hang ups that I just have to ignore some times.

I've just gotten used to pushing through discomfort and even pain to such an extent some times I forget I don't *have* to.

Posted by: SteveM | June 17, 2010 2:20 PM

I don't understand spitting saliva. As in it grosses me out to be standing at a urinal and the next guy walks up to an adjacent urinal and the first thing he does is spit into it. I mean what was so special about that particular mouthful of saliva that required expelling it rather than swallowing it like all the others throughout the day?

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | June 17, 2010 2:20 PM

It doesn't taste *that* bad. I gotta be honest, I've eaten worse.

Although I wouldn't drink a milk glass full of it.

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | June 17, 2010 2:24 PM

Weed Monkey, Ol'Greg,

From what I hear (random bits of sex-lore) what a man eats affects the taste. I have no clue if this is true, but the taste of one particular guy I dated really was that bad. It actually made me gag. Also, it had a strong and unpleasant odor. There, Pygmy Loris's waaay TMI for the day. :)

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | June 17, 2010 2:25 PM

That and semen tastes absolutely disgusting. The first urge many of us have is to spit out something that tastes like that.

I personally don't think semen taste bad. Well I don't think my semen taste bad. But than again I'm not all to expirience at such things. XD

Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD) | June 17, 2010 2:27 PM

Carlie,

Ok, KOPD, adding to the pile-on, I sent you an email.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 17, 2010 2:27 PM

Ol'Greg and [name Ol'Greg uses on FB redacted for privacy] are two different people to me. Or at least, two different versions of the person

I look different in different lights. Literally and figuratively actually.

But I'm the same girl.

You'd really be freaked out to meet me in person.

I'm more *me* on facebook in private emails. I don't like my facebook friends reading every little thing I post, and some of them *will* do that. And then call me.

I also try to protect people from other people on my facebook. Although a few people have become good friends cross friend pools with surprisingly good results.

A friend I met on another messageboard became good friends with a girl who friended me after seeing me post on *her* friends wall, who she went to highschool with. Now those two are buddies!

So.. no telling!

But I'm still all me. Recently some one called me and asked if I post on pharyngula as Ol'Greg!!!
Apparently they read here and thought, that's got to be her!

So I must have some consistency.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | June 17, 2010 2:29 PM

Bill:

I even cut stacks of pancakes as I go. I generally dip the cut pieces into the inevitable pools of syrup.

Oh, and I use the same name here as I do on Facebook. However, I tend not to accept random Facebook friend requests. Most of my FB friends are family, real-life friends, or coworkers (with some overlap between the latter two categories).

Posted by: sciencenotes | June 17, 2010 2:32 PM

Movies: I don't know any new movies, but recommend Das Boot (The Boat), German with English subtitles, about a submarine crew. It's a very powerful movie.

I generally like things labelled "action comedy" such as The Last Boy Scout, The Last Action Hero, or Jumping Jack Flash.

Also:
The Piano?

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | June 17, 2010 2:35 PM

Bill, Benjamin,

I simply put syrup over the whole stack after meticulously buttering each pancake (I like the butter soaked into the pancake). If there isn't enough syrup, I pour a little bit more onto the plate and dip the cut pieces into it. The butter (and it had better be real effing butter!) is way more important, though.

On cutting things up, sometimes I do cut more than one bite. For instance, with pancakes, I cut an entire horizontal strip off and then cut each bite out of that as I eat, so with the end if it, I end up cutting two bites at once :)

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | June 17, 2010 2:38 PM

but I don't get how a man could enjoy being on the receiving (i.e., forcing) end unless he was absolutely sure it was what his partner wanted. It's not that I'm naive about the existence of such men; I just can't imagine what they could be thinking.

For me, it’s the thought that he’s receiving a hard-on and becoming aroused that turns me on about being on the receiving end. It’s like watching him jack off, except you’re assisting him.

I'm more *me* on facebook in private emails. I don't like my facebook friends reading every little thing I post, and some of them *will* do that. And then call me.

You can always limit them you know.

Personally, I don’t mind if people read what they want on my page. I don’t even mind having internet friends adding me (I’ve even added people I’ve met gaming online). But then I get those random friend requests from people I’ve never even talk to and that weirds me out, because from experience they are mostly spammer (from my days on Myspace).

Posted by: MrFire | June 17, 2010 2:38 PM

Well I don't think my semen taste bad. But than again I'm not all to expirience at such things. XD

The story goes that Prince had a rib or two removed so that he could curl up enough to service himself. I heard this when I was ten and have no idea if it is realistic or not.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | June 17, 2010 2:40 PM

Ew... pancakes are gross. I much prefer waffles. (#)

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 17, 2010 2:41 PM

For me, it’s the thought that he’s receiving a hard-on and becoming aroused that turns me on about being on the receiving end. It’s like watching him jack off, except you’re assisting him.

This is pretty much what I like about sex in general.

I'm almost pathologically more interested in *other* people's enjoyment.

Posted by: JeffreyD | June 17, 2010 2:41 PM

Hmmm

Woohoo! Now I can send you an email some time and then obsessively wonder if I've made you uncomfortable. And then ask you, making you uncomfortable, and the obsessively wonder why I did that...lol

Wow, a chance to make Ol'Greg borderline freaky just by making a friend request. Well, I am in a vicious mood, but that is probably too much.

Jadehawk, I will go out and sacrifice one of the vuvezela playing morons on the High St here to ensure the rest of your trip is good.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | June 17, 2010 2:44 PM

Kevin:

Look in front of you now.
Do you have a waffle?
Wouldn't you be happier if you did?

(Possibly NSFW, definitly NSFSanity.)

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 17, 2010 2:46 PM

For some reason I've been told by a few ladies that mine doesn't. No idea what might be the cause, and I'm not going to start trying out other guys...

&

From what I hear (random bits of sex-lore) what a man eats affects the taste. I have no clue if this is true, but the taste of one particular guy I dated really was that bad.

Friend of mine planned a trip to Ontario for the purpose of gettin' jiggy with a girl he met on teh intert00bz back in '98. Ate nothing but parsley the week before. I imagine she looked up and asked him why he tasted of tabbouleh.

Personally, I can't stand the smell of mine.

I mean what was so special about that particular mouthful of saliva that required expelling it rather than swallowing it like all the others throughout the day?

It's how we guys judge height. I've never met a bridge railing I didn't look over and gob off of. It's an instinct, like how some people sneeze when looking at the sun or sing "Buh-buh-bu-u-u-h!" at the top of their lungs as soon as they hear "Swee-e-e-eet Car-o-line!"

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 17, 2010 2:51 PM

JeffreyD:

I shoot left and use a fighting knife left hand, right hand is for support of left, either in gripping or using a stick.

I'm the opposite. Fighting knives, though, while I use my right hand, I usually have another knife stashed somewhere for sinister use, so I use both in that case.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | June 17, 2010 2:52 PM

Rev BDC:

There's a reason I don't watch much "normal" porn. I much prefer the homemade stuff, where both parties (or all parties) are obviously enjoying it.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | June 17, 2010 2:55 PM

Benjamin, I thought that link was going to be this.

Brownian - you won't have that urge in this version.

Posted by: Sal Bro | June 17, 2010 2:58 PM

Weed Monkey,

For some reason I've been told by a few ladies that mine doesn't.

I can't speak to yours exactly. I don't think it tastes too bad, though, but it's different every time, even from the same person. I've heard that what a man eats matters, too, and it seems hydration is also a big factor.

I always assumed men liked it when the giver swallowed rather than spit, but then a man I was particularly fond of told me, after quite a long time of dating, that he was squeamish about it due to sexual abuse when he was a teen. Yet another lesson about making assumptions, especially with issues that are sensitive by nature.

Posted by: JeffreyD | June 17, 2010 3:02 PM

Caine, Fleur du mal OM* at #538 - If you do not have, you should download for free the book Broadsword and Single Stick. Written in 1911 by R.G. Allanson-Winn, it contains chapters on the use of staffs and walking sticks. Worth the read for you, I think. I could also send it to you by email if downloading is iffy for you. Did I remember you said that you are on dialup?

http://manybooks.net/titles/allanson-winnrg3121431214-8.htmlhttp://manybooks.net/titles/allanson-winnrg3121431214-8.html

*I completely missed the Mollies this time around. Just noticed yours. Well Deserved and Congrats. Brava!

Posted by: Weed Monkey | June 17, 2010 3:07 PM

Obviously I can't speak for all men either, but:

I always assumed men liked it when the giver swallowed rather than spit

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 17, 2010 3:08 PM

Love that version, Carlie. I'm working on a rush data analysis right now, so some Gimmes is totally hitting the spot.

Posted by: Thebear, just an agent of peas | June 17, 2010 3:12 PM

Can't see any mention of todays crazy news - so here it goes:

The bible as a source of a unerring morals never goes wrong - or was it: When it does it doubles as a murder weapon

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1287117/Baby-girl-died-religious-fanatic-mother-stuffed-Bible-mouth-sat-her.html?ITO=1490

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | June 17, 2010 3:12 PM

The story goes that Prince had a rib or two removed so that he could curl up enough to service himself. I heard this when I was ten and have no idea if it is realistic or not.

Some people do engage in autofellatio but I've never heard of removing a rib for it. With that said, one needn't perform an autofellatio to taste their own semen. (I could describe the explicit details)

Now to move away from the sex,

Banh Bao

4 cup of self rising flour or you can buy the flour made specifically for it which would be found in specialty stores
1 cup of whole milk, warmed
3/4 cup of white sugar
2 Chinese dried pork sausage links
1/2 tbsp of pepper
5 hard boiled eggs, peeled and quartered
500 g of chinese bbq pork, sliced
2 lb medium ground pork
10 mushrooms, sliced
1 onion, minced
3 tbsp of oyster sauce
1 tsp veg oil or sesame oil
2 tsp fish sauce

Mix the flour, milk and sugars together.
Make dough and cover it with a damp cloth.
Let it rest. Be sure it's away from any draft.
Heat the oil and add onions.
As the onions start to brown, add ground pork and mushrooms and cooks them over medium.
Add the fish sauce, salt and pepper.
Add the oyster sauce last and set the mix aside.
Roll the dough into 2.5 inch diameter log.
Cut it into 30 to 40 pieces.
Roll each piece, add 1 tbsp of meat filling.
Then add 1 piece of bbq pork, 1 piece sausage and top with egg.
Pinch ends together to form a ball.
Put cut side down on parchment and steam for 15 minutes

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 17, 2010 3:19 PM

JeffreyD:

If you do not have, you should download for free the book Broadsword and Single Stick. Written in 1911 by R.G. Allanson-Winn

Thank you! I'm reading it online, the whole book is available. I'm smiling already:

Are there not stories, too, of clever little apes in tropical forests who have pelted unwary travellers with nuts, stones, and any missiles which came handy?

Then, coming nearer home, there is the lady at an Irish fair who hangs on the outskirts of a faction-fight, ready to do execution with a stone in her stocking--a terrible gog-magog sort of brain-scatterer.

When man was developed, no doubt one of his first ideas was to get hold of a really good serviceable stick--not a little modern masher's crutch--a strong weapon, capable of assisting him in jumping, protecting him from wild beasts, and knocking down his fellow-man.

Wonderful stuff.

Well Deserved and Congrats. Brava!

Thank you! Off to read about how to be even more poisonous now...

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 17, 2010 3:22 PM

Did you just suggest a Pharyngula glory hole?

[Blinks.]

[Blinks.]

[Blinks.]

[Shoots hand into the air.]

I'm in.

Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD) | June 17, 2010 3:26 PM

On the upside, looks like there's no way I'll creep out KOPD!

Posted by: Flex | June 17, 2010 3:30 PM

Shala at #495 wrote,

so i'm applying for jobs now and i'm feeling kind of anxious
i never seem to get any email back from anyone

Having just been through a year of that, don't let it make you anxious. I know, advice which probably can't be taken.

I typically found and applied for five job postings a day for almost a year. I would get an acknowledgement that I applied, but no e-mails from anyone unless they were interested. Any responses would occur from 6-8 weeks after I applied, and I'd often had forgotten that I had applied to them. Hint: Keep accurate notes of who you applied to and when. I set up a spreadsheet so I could sort by date, company, or position when I finally got a call-back.

The exception to this was government and university positions, and General Motors. These places would let you know when the position was closed/filled.

I admit that it's nerve-wracking, but the only solution is perseverance.

Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD) | June 17, 2010 3:32 PM

I'm sure rule 34 can prove me right.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | June 17, 2010 3:36 PM

Still catching up:

Jadehawk, sorry about your travails, and glad you're getting back on track. I always found the Atlanta airport relatively congenial, despite all the obligatory snark about it (plenty of restaurants and shops, an a decent system for getting from terminal to terminal, which is all I really require in an airport), and 3 hr is a congenial layover (IMHO), as well: Long enough that you don't have to sweat making a connection, even if your incoming flight is a bit late, and long enough to get a decent meal, but not so long that you need to worry about killing a lot of time. Enjoy your business class!

sciencenotes (@472):

As far as marriages of >2 people, how about legalizing all marriages of equal numbers of the same sex, plus or minus 1? That way, balanced group marriages or line marriages (a la Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress) would be legal, but not hareems.

Posted by: MrFire | June 17, 2010 3:37 PM

I don't know any new movies, but recommend Das Boot (The Boat), German with English subtitles, about a submarine crew.

Appropriately, there is a scene in that movie where the seasoned crew make fun of an uptight new officer who pre-cuts his food. And then does the switching-hands thing to eat.

Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD) | June 17, 2010 3:43 PM

But which hand do you guys use to rip out the still-beating hearts of your victims?

Posted by: iambilly | June 17, 2010 3:45 PM

We're up to comment 571. No bacon?

Posted by: iambilly | June 17, 2010 3:54 PM

Am I the only person on this thread who has actually never watched any kind of pornography (other than Faux News (when I have no choice))? And have no real need or desire to? Is there something wrong with me that I'm not interested?

Posted by: JeffreyD | June 17, 2010 3:58 PM

MrFire

But which hand do you guys use to rip out the still-beating hearts of your victims?

In my case, the right. I mentioned that is the support hand...also the proper hand with which to eat. :^}

Posted by: iambilly | June 17, 2010 4:03 PM

Ol'Greg:

If I'm online (at home) and one of the links I'm following heads off in that direction I just close the tab and keep going (hopefully to what I wanted in the first place). I've seen the images and videos but only long enough to realize I'm not interested. (((Wife))) is far more interesting and enjoyable than anything involving just my eyes.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 17, 2010 4:05 PM

JeffreyD:

In my case, the right. I mentioned that is the support hand...also the proper hand with which to eat.

For me, it would depend on whether or not I spun and kicked first. If I did, I'd use my left hand. However, I'm open to using either when it comes to hearts. ;)

Posted by: iambilly | June 17, 2010 4:09 PM

Brownian:

I used to kayak and my first job was as a whitewater raft guide.

Does that count.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | June 17, 2010 4:13 PM

Dammit. Preparing for an event is the best way to ensure it never happens.

(Translation: No rain.)

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | June 17, 2010 4:14 PM

Re BJs: It occurs to me that receiving is a potentially confusing term to use in this context, since either partner could be said to be receiving in one sense of the word (i.e., one is receiving penile stimulation; the other is physically receiving a penis). Ain't language a pain? ;^)

Rev BDC:

Well my point was I think some men get off on the dominance thing.

Sure. And some people get off on being dominated. I just think a man who gets off by dominating a partner he's not absolutely certain gets off on being dominated (or at least freely consents to it) is an unfiltered assclam. I can't put myself in the nonconsensual domination headspace, even hypothetically. And I couldn't enjoy depictions of that sort of activity, no matter how clearly fictional.

Apropos of which...

[Ol'Greg] I'm almost pathologically more interested in *other* people's enjoyment.

[MrFire] I'm trying to figure if meeting a similar-minded person would work out really well or really badly.

I, too, am mostly focused on my partner's pleasure. I think it works well if both partners are mostly (aka almost pathologically) focused on the other's pleasure; if you get really pathologically focused on the partner's pleasure, or if your ostensible focus on your partner's pleasure is actually a focus on your own ability to give pleasure, you get into that goal-oriented territory that made our last conversation about this stuff a skosh tense. ;^)

No longer about BJs...

Ol'Greg (@516):

I look different in different lights. Literally and figuratively actually.

I'm suddenly flashing on Seinfeld... but I'm sure you don't look that scary in any light!

But I'm the same girl.

I don't doubt you are. I wasn't suggesting that you behave differently; only that my sense of things is altered by the different context/name. I find both of you fascinating, BTW (ooh, that came off like flirting, I'm afraid; didn't mean to creep you out).

You'd really be freaked out to meet me in person.

Mebbe, but I doubt it; I'm not all that easily freaked.

Posted by: Weed Monkey | June 17, 2010 4:23 PM

*puts down plywood and hole saw*

Posted by: Dania | June 17, 2010 4:29 PM

France just lost 0-2 to Mexico. It was a good, exciting game. Actually, all three games today were. It's getting better.

Posted by: JeffreyD | June 17, 2010 4:43 PM

Caine, ma F d m at #580

However, I'm open to using either when it comes to hearts. ;)

As I mentioned, from my days with people to whom it matters, I have trained myself to eat from only my right hand when utensils are not available. Hearts do count as finger food.

Glad you liked B&Single Stick, knew you would. :^}

Still fighting the urge to send Ol'Greg a Facebook friend request. I like screwing with people, but I do actually like her. Talk me out of it.

Posted by: JeffreyD | June 17, 2010 4:46 PM

KOPD, even heart removal or evisceration does not have to be vulgar. There are standards of decorum one must maintain.

:^}

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | June 17, 2010 4:49 PM

iambilly:

(((Wife))) is far more interesting and enjoyable than anything involving just my eyes.

Just your eyes?? UR DOIN' IT RONG! ;^)

But seriously, folks... IMHO, one's interest in and enjoyment of one's partner is in no way inconsistent with enjoying porn. I'll cop to being a bit of a voyeur, and porn offers a type of purely visual stimulation that usually isn't part of actual sex (in fact, the "POV" stuff that attempts to mimic what you can see during sex is one of my least favorite sorts of porn).

I've never been to a sex club, but if I ever did go, it wouldn't be because I wanted to have group sex; it would be because I wanted to watch group sex.

But that's just me; "to each his own, said the lady as she kissed the cow."

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 17, 2010 4:53 PM

JeffreyD:

Talk me out of it.

No.

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | June 17, 2010 5:04 PM

I have to ask if anyone is planning to go to Skepticon III at Missouri State University.

Knees willing, I'll be there.

Which reminds me, how do y'all eat rice over there*?

With a fork, shovel-fashion, if the rice appears on a plate; with a spoon, also shovel-fashion (is there another way to use a spoon?), if the rice appears in a bowl. Righthandedly, in both cases.

(If I was expected to use a fork or spoon lefthandedly, I'd starve!)

which makes table setting vaguely confusing

Solved by just laying all the utensils on top of the plate, in a heap. Let the individual user sort 'em out to their own satisfaction.

Cutting up everything that needs cutting and then putting the knife down is just good sense; you'll need your off-hand to hold your book. Reading while you eat is important; it slows your (by which I mean, my) rate of consumption. If this doesn't seem to be working, try a different book.

Chopsticks befuddle me. I find them cumbersome and inefficient.

I guess I just don't understand the appeal. I wouldn't shovel my driveway with a broom-handle, or mow my lawn with a scissors. There are better tools available...

No additional comment necessary. This covers it with incredible thoroughness.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 17, 2010 5:07 PM

All in the name of science. That's what I'm saying.

I wish I'd known about gloryholonomy or orgyology when I was first applying for post-secondary. Imagine: all my coursework would've been what I was studying anyway. I'd have graduated with honours, fast-tracked a PhD, and been putting out papers, two, three times a day; more on slow weekends.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | June 17, 2010 5:08 PM

Reading while you eat is important; it slows your (by which I mean, my) rate of consumption. If this doesn't seem to be working, try a different book.

I was eating with a friend once and we spotted an entire family of people reading paperback fiction at the table in a restaurant. Completely surreal. I did not have my camera and oh how sad I am about that.

Mom, dad, kids... all of them holding books three inches from their noses and over their plates while they ate.

It was just so funny looking in that setting!

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 17, 2010 5:15 PM

I guess I just don't understand the appeal. I wouldn't shovel my driveway with a broom-handle, or mow my lawn with a scissors. There are better tools available...

Not for sushi. Besides, I like having chopsticks around the house. They're incredibly useful in all sorts of circumstances.

Besides, if all you're going to do is shovel food in (hey, I eat that way too), then forget about the fork, spoon or knife. (Trust me on this. At least once in your life, eat a nice steak dinner, including soup, salad, and sides, without any utensils whatsoever. Better than porn.)

Posted by: JeffreyD | June 17, 2010 5:17 PM

Gee! Thanks Caine, now I have to use self control. :^}

MrFire, might not like what the hands are doing, tender stroking is not part of the deal. :^{

Ol'Greg at #604 - that would look...well, you used surreal and that covers it. I read when I eat, but only when alone. Wait, correction, the dog is always with me when I eat alone at home, just in case I change my mind about not feeding from the table. Hope springs eternal...

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | June 17, 2010 5:20 PM

JeffreyD:

I read when I eat, but only when alone. Wait, correction, the dog is always with me when I eat alone at home, just in case I change my mind about not feeding from the table. Hope springs eternal...

Same here, except it's three dogs.

Posted by: JeffreyD | June 17, 2010 5:27 PM

Ol'Greg - not today...perhaps not tomorrow...but there will come a time...when you least suspect...when you have forgotten this...out of the blue...the horror...the shock...the blood curdling awareness that awaiting you...oh so innocently...in your FB mailbox...the friend request...from heck.

Caine - dogs, eh? Big brown eyes and that hope that one day we will say, "C'mon up boy. Have a steak."

Nite Folks, need to listen to opera and settle down for the night with a variety of books.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | June 17, 2010 5:33 PM

Carlie:

I just think a man who gets off by dominating a partner he's not absolutely certain gets off on being dominated (or at least freely consents to it) is an unfiltered assclam.

More than that, anyone who persists in doing something sexual to a partner without being absolutely certain of their consent is a rapist.