Pharyngula

Posted by: shane.p.brady | June 28, 2010 7:05 PM

The Kentucky Libertarian Party already washed their hands of him, and Paul's been trying to wash his hands of the LP. Nice try though, PZ.

Posted by: icusmiling | June 28, 2010 7:07 PM

I guess it means that he's starting to learn to not say anything that will bite him in the ass later.

It's funny yet sad to see the people on the right try to cater to their base, and still not sound like an idiot to everyone else.

Posted by: Capital Dan | June 28, 2010 7:12 PM

shane.p.brady Author Profile Page | June 28, 2010 7:05 PM

The Kentucky Libertarian Party already washed their hands of him, and Paul's been trying to wash his hands of the LP.

Well now. Isn't that convenient?

I'm thinking Libertarians will glom onto just about any gubmint-hatin' kook to come along, so replacing this nitwit should only take a day or two.

Posted by: Ichthyic | June 28, 2010 7:15 PM

Nice try though, PZ.

Let me get this straight...

you think this is an attempt by PZ to, what?

make libertarians look like idiots for supporting an idiot?

Aside from the fact I highly doubt there is any such motive here, Libertarians have been famous for doing that all on their own, and certainly don't need PZ's help.

Posted by: eleusis | June 28, 2010 7:27 PM

If he says the earth is old, he pisses off the crowd that he's talking to and people will question whether he is a True Christian. If he says the earth is young, he'll be ridiculed by his political opponents as being scientifically illiterate.

I hope this topic comes up again on a news interview or debate.

Posted by: William | June 28, 2010 7:37 PM

Maybe he just didn't have an answer. It's possible he's neither scientifically literate nor religious and never really thought about it. And if he didn't know the right thing to do would be to not give an answer. All too many people will give answers when they really have no idea.

Then again, he's a politician so he's probably just being a coward.

Posted by: badgersdaughter | June 28, 2010 7:45 PM

(The English subjunctive is dead. Long live the English indicative.)

Posted by: KG | June 28, 2010 7:48 PM

I always got the impression that libertarians are intellectually lazy juvenile sociopaths.

You'll be telling us next you "always got the impression" that the Pope is a Catholic, and that bears habitually defecate in wooded areas!

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | June 28, 2010 7:51 PM

The Kentucky Libertarian Party already washed their hands of him, and Paul's been trying to wash his hands of the LP.

Paul self-identifies as a "constitutional conservative" and a Republican.

Posted by: delphi-ote | June 28, 2010 7:58 PM

I always got the impression that libertarians are intellectually lazy juvenile sociopaths.

lib·er·tar·i·an   [lib-er-tair-ee-uhn] –noun 1. an intellectually lazy juvenile sociopath

Posted by: Cherie | June 28, 2010 8:04 PM

Am I the only one that finds it odd that someone who is such a strong Libertarian that he balks at the idea that the federal gov't has the right to require businesses to serve minorities, apparently does believe that the gov't has a place in legislating a woman's reproductive freedom. I'd bet a paycheck he has something not so pleasant to say about gay marriage as well. It is the convenience of the Libertarian perspective that is the most galling of all.

Posted by: eleusis | June 28, 2010 8:09 PM

#17 What's with the bizarre combination of libertarianism and the Religious Right? Is it this?

** Reported Attack Site **

Posted by: Guy Incognito | June 28, 2010 8:14 PM

My browser went sort of wacky after I clicked the link to the cartoon in #17. I have a feeling it was a ridiculous advertisement for some sort of security software, but heads up if you haven't already clicked it. Once you can finally get the stupid thing closed, the link seems to work normally.

Posted by: Form&Function | June 28, 2010 8:23 PM

The original post at barefootandprogressive (linked in PZ's post) also mentions an incredible website advertised among the exhibit booths at the same convention where the video was made.

Check out HimVisible.com.

Apparently, if one is specially trained (generally in kindergarten, but the site says older children can also benefit) one can learn to see the evidence of God in the world around us. It's called Him Vision. I kid you not.

An example from page 5 of the Him Vision sample:

CONES
Cones almost always point downward and fall off of a tree. The cedar of Lebanon has cones that point up! Of all the evergreen trees, the cedar is the only tree that does not lose its cones. The cones remain on the tree after losing their seeds.

HIDDEN TREASURE
The picture shows cones on a Cedar of Lebanon.
We find that when things point up, they are often a reference to God.

I think this makes porn a hidden tribute to our Lord.

Posted by: Ternon | June 28, 2010 8:26 PM

Thank FSM that you added "Christian" before "homeschooler" - being lumped in with these fools drives me (and the Spawn) up a tree. But yeah, a lot of homeschoolers are total theist maroons.

Excuse me, but they are the vast majority, occasional rational homeschoolers who actually make their children better educated than public schools are completely marginal.

The whole thing started as fundamentalist sectarian denialism.

Posted by: fauxrs | June 28, 2010 8:30 PM

as for Ru Paul spawn, he's just being a politician, he knows he has the right wing religious nutjob vote for the most part so he doesnt really need to answer the question to them, so he holds off to make sure that those few marginally less right wing nutcases who dont buy into the YEC party line wont think him an idiot.

Posted by: F | June 28, 2010 8:34 PM

So I visit the linked article and find the Him Visible image at the bottom. Invisible Wisdom - I think that says it all. GOATSONFIRE!

Posted by: Peter H | June 28, 2010 8:39 PM

Norton Internet Security definitely does not like the link in #17.

Posted by: Guy Incognito | June 28, 2010 8:54 PM

@James F: #27 isn't any better than #17. Clicking your link for me put something on my computer that wouldn't let me access the My Documents folder or My Computer, or Control Panel or anything like that until I managed to get rid of it. Using a relic of a laptop here belonging to the wife with I believe almost zero security software since my computer broke so your link let me have it.

Posted by: Peter H | June 28, 2010 8:57 PM

I would judge Him Vision's teaching materials with a jaundiced eye. They have the Earth rotating in the wrong direction.

Posted by: Peter H | June 28, 2010 9:20 PM

At the least they could have the Earth rotate in the proper direction.

Posted by: BluesBassist | June 28, 2010 9:42 PM

I've heard the current U.S. President believes in the existence of an invisible sky fairy, and claims to have a personal relationship with the sky fairy's invisible zombie "son."

You liberals didn't vote for that kook, did you?

Posted by: Hypatia's Daughter | June 28, 2010 10:05 PM

"A libertarian is just a Republican who wants to smoke dope and get laid" - Thom Hartmann

Posted by: Peter H | June 28, 2010 10:16 PM

I got the very distinct impression from a fairly recent news clip that Obama thinks of himself as Buddhist. Doesn't that preclude any "personal" relationship with deity/ies?

Posted by: Don Smith | June 28, 2010 10:24 PM

Brownian won the thread. Were I drinking coffee, It would be all over my keyboard, desk and probably the wall behind. (See, subjunctive is not completely dead)

Posted by: James F | June 28, 2010 10:57 PM

Peter H,

You misread me, I think - that was intended as self-deprecation, since I'm genuinely sorry that a link I posted resulted in any problems with your computer. Seriously, I get embarrassed if I fumble for my credit card and cause a shopper behind me to waste a few seconds in line, so I'm quite red-faced over this one. Friends?

Posted by: skeptifem | June 28, 2010 11:01 PM

Excuse me, but they are the vast majority, occasional rational homeschoolers who actually make their children better educated than public schools are completely marginal.

The whole thing started as fundamentalist sectarian denialism

Public schools just indoctrinate kids into a different world view. Creationist homeschooling and public schools fail to teach anyone how to actually think. This kind of education is reserved for people who have already been through many years of jumping through meaningless hoops in order to get there- people who ask the wrong questions are weeded out by this process. Powerful knowledge is kept from the masses this way, and this is why education doesn't get any better here. It just isn't supposed to, and the people who make choices about things like the curriculum don't do any of the real work- they are all high up on the ladder. The political system is the shadow that business casts upon society; they are the real deciders in political and economic life. It isn't a conspiracy theory, people don't need to gather into a room and discuss or plot this. It is just assuming that people in those positions of power would not work to undermine themselves. It is how you would expect things to work, when power is so concentrated. People who are in charge of private power in this country have a lot of control over what people think- the range of argument available to the public via the media. They don't want a shitload of people who really know how to figure things out and ask important questions. People like that aren't easy to manipulate and don't engage in mindless consumerism. You can't justify unjust authority to them- you can't tell them that there are infinite resources and that growth is always good. You can't tell truly educated people that we will be greeted as liberators or any of the other countless lies people fall for out of fear and ignorance.

Bickering over the facts that should or should not be taught is a waste of time- the method is what is fucked. One thing you will notice about creationist homeschoolers is that they literally make a school at home. They have desks and blackboards and work sheets and all that jazz. There is time blocked out for subjects (mastery of subject matter is sacrificed in order to do this). It is a recipe to make learning into a chore and teach people to unquestioningly obey authority.

The majority of kids are fucked. Look at how economics and history are taught- go look at yer local school plan and see what they teach about foreign policy. The only time america is portrayed as having ill intent towards others is slavery and the slaughter of native americans- and both of those are taught that way because of vigorous activism from people of color, not because any of the white people who write history and school lessons decided that there was ill intent on their own. Knowing the real information about things like our foreign policy and economic system are just as important as knowing about science- there is a real toll for others when there is ignorance and apathy on the part of Americans. America and nations who are friends with america are responsible for so much aggression that it should be the object of concern to pharyngulites in the same way that evolution is.

Posted by: Peter H | June 28, 2010 11:19 PM

James,

I most certainly did not at first associate you with the (unintentionally infected, I am sure) URL - Norton simply bailed me out with an alert flag. I've had my (not a few) own fuax pas (plural, please?) with noted figures & their at least openly stated personal philosophies. This is well-reflected in #55 to show that some are more alert than I and some call me to task on it. Quite right they should. Certainly no offense intended. I tend quite readily toward a certain wry, Down-Easter, tongue-in-cheek dryness that even mid-Westerners do not often recognize, certainly not Dixiecrats. Those across the pond or across the ditch should also be forgiven, but when the need for a Babel Fish arises,it should be stated openly. I have lots of fun here & intend not to consciously step on any toes which do not perforce ask to be stepped upon. Friends.

Posted by: Peter H | June 28, 2010 11:43 PM

skeptifem,

You need to visit the labors of the Texas Board of Education. One need not be very far up any ladder, indeed one's knuckles may drag from time to time, in order to have an inordinate effect on the textbooks available to school systems throughout the nation. It's now to the point where one deciding upon a text must ask, "Is this a textbook or a Texas book?"

Posted by: Usagichan | June 29, 2010 12:04 AM

Unshackled @57

Interestingly, I tend to find the views generally politically farther right of what I am comfortable with. However I tend to ascribe generally reasonable centre-left positions that are politically prevalent here either to a more balanced international set of commenters (the default position of much of the rest of the world seems to be to the extreme left in US politics), or to the fact that in giving up religion people are starting to release the sense of entitlement that goes with being 'God's chosen ones'.

Posted by: Unshackled | June 29, 2010 12:27 AM

Usagichan,

I guess maybe it is my US citizenship that makes it all seem so left. I guess it just takes some getting used to . . .

I'm not sure how to take your "God's chosen ones" comment and how that would relate to wanting smaller government and less governmental interference.

Thanks for the reply.

Posted by: Rincewind'smuse | June 29, 2010 12:40 AM

though I'm not exactly sure that "deep-rooted scruples" are under the ownership of either the Republican party or former fundies....

Posted by: Usagichan | June 29, 2010 12:48 AM

Unshackled @ 62

Sorry if the 'God's chosen ones' comment was a little oblique. As one of the chosen ones, one is inherently important - the idea that the individual is the most important thing, as opposed to society. However one still expects all of the benefits conferred by society. That's what I meant by a sense of entitlement. Once one sees oneself less as a special 'centre of creation', more as a member of a complex interlocking social structure, it is easier to equate the maintenance and good of the structure as a whole with one's own well being.

Bottom line, religion is essentially selfish
(and inherently destructive because of it) - Atheism (at least for me) gives me room to say, even if something is against my short-term interest, it may be better to support it as good for the society in which I live (and therefore indirectly good for me)!

Posted by: truth machine, OM | June 29, 2010 1:22 AM

But I must say, it seems there's only room for one political party line among atheists and it's super left-leaning liberal.

That's stupid, immature, whiny, and intellectually dishonest. Atheists have whatever views they have -- it has nothing to do with what there's "room for". If you find that a lot of atheists think poorly of your views, it's possible that's because your views are flawed. In any case, Pharyngula and its readership do not by any means comprise the entirety of atheist thought. Commenters here tend to lean left because a) the blogger is a renowned liberal and b) they tend to be better educated than average.

Posted by: Meathead | June 29, 2010 2:54 AM

Funny stuff. Many levels of irony here. Rand Paul - a guy named after a famous atheist douchebag now panders to right wing Christian morons who basically accept all the Ayn Randian selfish nonsense in the name of Jesus, a socialist hippie Jew. That's one really deep onion to peel there.

Posted by: David Marjanović | June 29, 2010 4:47 AM

"I tell you, the shit doesn't fall far from the bat." -Bill Maher

LOL!!!

I don't see any wacky/attack links, just linked to the artist's original site (which I found out about from an earlier link from PZ). Profound apologies if anything goes awry - this is what is should be:

Sends me straight to a site that pretends to be a Windows XP virus warning with a Windows Explorer window in the background. That's obvious malware. I closed the tab.

Of all the evergreen trees, the cedar is the only tree that does not lose its cones.

What? Have they never seen a fir?

Posted by: Kel, The Privileged View From Nowhere | June 29, 2010 5:08 AM

What saddens me about questions along these lines is that it turns fact into mere opinion. It's glorifying ignorance!

Posted by: Brian, Defender of Tone Trolls | June 29, 2010 7:08 AM

@unshackled.

I just became an atheist after 24 years of being a Christian fundie, and I'm lovin' this pharyngula science blog. But I must say, it seems there's only room for one political party line among atheists and it's super left-leaning liberal.

I'd amend that slightly to "there's only room for one political party line among rationalists and it's super left-leaning liberal".

The preponderance of evidence suggests that left leaning societies have better outcomes in terms of health, happiness and societal cohesion. That's why (or at least a primary reason) I'm a left leaning liberal. I also live in Sweden where the purest form of left leaning liberalism on the planet has been applied for decades with considerable success, so I'm not just talking about 2nd hand reports or peer reviewed articles, I see the benefits every day.

You should ask yourself if the 24 years of fundiness isn't still clouding your judgement on the economic front? You'll hopefully at least conceed that you might have still have some deficits as a result of such prolonged exposure to that kind of toxic mind anthrax? Maybe you need to do some additional investigation to plug those gaps; after all, reading, thinking and critical analysis is pretty much how you got out of the religious hole. Right?

Have a wander round nationmaster (http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php) it's pretty enlightening.

Oh! And welcome to atheism my ex-fundy brother, I salute you!

Posted by: badgersdaughter | June 29, 2010 7:39 AM

But I must say, it seems there's only room for one political party line among atheists and it's super left-leaning liberal.

Not necessarily. For example, I'm not a super left-leaning liberal myself. I personally started out as a nice anarcho-capitalistic, Hayekian, Randian, mad, mad libertarian who scored an even 100 on the Libertarian ideology test. Some of the commenters here (particularly Knockgoats, who does not pull his punches) challenged me on many of my beliefs about people and about the markets.

I have to say that much of what grassroots Libertarians think about their economic theories is simplistic to the point of actual error. The theories themselves have a thing or two to say to the field of economics in general, but it is by no means a completely correct or coherent system.

Socially, Libertarianism was supposed to have been about individual freedom, mutual trust, and non-interference. These days it's all about "the government is good because I can use it as my personal enforcer of what I perceive my personal liberties to be, for example my freedom to have ignorant prejudices and my freedom to tell other people not to do things I don't like."

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 29, 2010 8:06 AM

There are many irrational liberal politicians as well, such as John Kerry, who is a supporter of the anti-vaccination movement. Yet this did not stop many liberals from voting for him against Bush. Believing that the earth is just 6000 years is harmless compared to being part of the anti-vaccination movement, because that actually kills people outright by not taking vaccines. Reference for John Kerry as an anti-vaccination supporter comes from Paul Offit's great book "Autism's False Prophets" (p. 101).

So we should vote for Rand because Kerry is anti-vax.

Got it. Makes perfect logical sense.

So much for this not being a zero sum game.

Posted by: danielm | June 29, 2010 8:23 AM

#75@kieranfoy he wants us to dye? but..but..I like my greying hair. I don't want to have to colour it! ...will the gubbermint fund my blue hair colour?

#62@ "unshackled" - try being MORE unshackled than that. there's a lot of lefty liberalness around, perhaps, but atheist does not mean communist, lefty, libertarian, hippie or anarchist. sorry, mister concerntroll. As the fundies love to say, there have been some remarkably right-wing atheists around in the past. I get told I'm a lefty liberal a lot by right-whingers. I take it as a compliment.

Posted by: andrewraygorman | June 29, 2010 8:31 AM

Go Green. We could always use more people =) Plus, the Libertarian philosophy doesnt work in practice with humans.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 29, 2010 8:35 AM

But I must say, it seems there's only room for one political party line among atheists and it's super left-leaning liberal.

Everyone knows that reality has a liberal bias.

Posted by: shane.p.brady | June 29, 2010 9:10 AM

@8 Ichthyic

If Rand Paul doesn't call himself a libertarian, if the LP doesn't call Rand Paul a libertarian, what is the point of making a dig at libertarians other than PZ's own ignorance and disdain of a political philosophy?

I think his intent was pretty clearn.

Posted by: samilobster | June 29, 2010 10:16 AM

You know, there's more to government than pro-choice, tolerance, etc.-- things like small government, responsible federal spending,

Making it legal to fire people for being black or gay...

Posted by: Tulse | June 29, 2010 11:43 AM

"individual liberty" and "small government" are nice sounding buzz-phrases, but how about you give us some actual policy positions?

Please Cthulhu no.

It's really like saying "Candyman" in a mirror five times -- once you've summoned the libertarians, they won't go away.

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/vRDAZ3QRyt7jp5A5XNQr9.0smZ4-#4624f | June 29, 2010 1:02 PM

Ran and Ron Paul are NOT Libertarians. They do not agree with many of the social issues that Libertarians stand for.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | June 29, 2010 1:34 PM

Socially, Libertarianism was supposed to have been about individual freedom, mutual trust, and non-interference.

The idea that Libertarian is supposed to be anything hints at how out-of-touch with reality it is. That the philosophy itself can't even remain coherent without some top-down regulation from a figurehead like Ayn Rand is just too delicious to bear.

Communism at least admits it requires some sort of critical mental awakening among the proletariat in order to achieve the glorious revolution, but Libertarianism requires no such enlightenment: it's supposed to work with us as we are, and the gloriousness is supposed to rise, like a marvel engineered by Galt, from the sum of the constituent parts. But no such Invisible Hand seems able to distill the chaos of individual Libertarians, all of whom happily blame its failure to materialise on the fact that everyone else is No True Libertarian™.

It is profoundly ironic that atheists (or worse, rationalists) should subscribe to any philosophy that is as inherently salvationist as Communism or Christianity.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 29, 2010 1:42 PM

Rand Paul does not eat Haggis!

Posted by: Ichthyic | June 29, 2010 5:01 PM

In short, not all libertarians are card-carrying kooks, and to state otherwise when people actively distance themselves from them is, uh, wrong.

perhaps, but they are ALL demonstrably wrong and deliberately ignorant of history.

I prefer the short term myself, broad as it might apply.

Posted by: Petzl | June 29, 2010 10:56 PM

Do I have to listen to this git for NINE minutes? Please, at what timecode do they ask the Earth's Age question?

Posted by: Rokkaku | June 30, 2010 3:54 AM

@carrbucks 103: These days most big-L Libertarians are more concerned with posting things like this:

"It has now become clear that, outside of the burgeoning field of Census Takers, there will be no major increase in new jobs for years to come. Outside government, Obama has created a wasteland of economic ruin and depression that looks much like the landscape of Mel Gibson’s first movie “Mad Max.” Without a printing press in Obama’s world, you’re just plain out of luck."

Basically the garden is the least of your worries as a post-apocalyptic dust bowl probably wouldn't provide fertile soil anyway.

This is why libertarians get laughed at. I don't blame people for ridiculing nonsense like this at all.