…and this is a 
Blizzard, which makes a couple of extremely popular computer games like Starcraft, Warcraft, and Diablo, also maintains a gigantic set of forums with an overwhelming volume of posts appearing non-stop. I've never dug into them — way too much stuff, and it's scary how ferocious the debates can get over a change in a magic spell in a game — but they've announced a major, radical change:
The first and most significant change is that in the near future, anyone posting or replying to a post on official Blizzard forums will be doing so using their Real ID -- that is, their real-life first and last name -- with the option to also display the name of their primary in-game character alongside it. These changes will go into effect on all StarCraft II forums with the launch of the new community site prior to the July 27 release of the game, with the World of Warcraft site and forums following suit near the launch of Cataclysm. Certain classic forums, including the classic Battle.net forums, will remain unchanged.
Whoa. No pseudonyms at all, all anonymity removed. They can actually do this because everything is linked to subscriptions to their games, so they can demand accurate billing information…and they have just announced that part of that billing information will be made public. There have been a lot of debates about privacy and anonymity on the internet, and here's an actual exercise in testing the Penny Arcade theory by eliminating one of the parameters.
Have no fear, I'm not proposing to do the experiment here. It could get interesting if we have a major before and after dataset available on the internet, though…I predict that many casual trolls might get filtered out fast, but there will still be online meanies and contrarians and aggressive debaters, and there may not be a huge change in tone. After all, I'm not writing under a pseudonym, and you don't see me wilting politely into courteous discourse.
Some sociologist should get ready to study this…
There's a good discussion going on at Shakesville — this decision is an exercise in privilege by Blizzard. There are a fair number of female gamers who would rather not advertise the fact…because many male gamers are jerks.
Comments
Posted by: timothy.green.name
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July 6, 2010 6:10 PM
My OpenId is my actual name too. And my most common Internet pseudonym, TRiG, I also use on Facebook, where I post under my real name but sign my posts with my pseudonym. I'd I'm still a contentious brat!
TRiG.
Posted by: Treppenwitz
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July 6, 2010 6:11 PM
Prediction: mom loses job when employer discovers diatribe posted in her name by son who subscribes to WOW with her credit card.
Posted by: knitmeapony
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July 6, 2010 6:13 PM
It's not an interesting experiment -- it's downright dangerous.
When you're sitting in a safe, privileged position it may seem okay, but for people who have been stalked online, who have been stalked IRL, who hide because they don't want to deal with abusive relatives, who don't want their professional ID to be associated with gaming at all... it's risking personal safety and more.
As usual, the folks at The Border House say everything I want to and more eloquently than I can usually muster.
Posted by: dillman.alan
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July 6, 2010 6:13 PM
After years of autonomy on the net, I made a conscious decision with my first post on Pharyngula to use my real name.
If I think I have the right to speak my mind, if I think its my place to offend, I can damned well face the consequences rather than hiding behind some pseudonym.
Net life is real life, and the people I communicate with(at) are real human beings. If people are going to suffer the vagaries of my moods and opinions, I should have the balls to face them unmasked.
Posted by: PZ Myers
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July 6, 2010 6:16 PM
Of course it's an interesting experiment! In the same way, I think doing a head transplant between a human and a chimpanzee would be very interesting.
That doesn't imply that it should be done.
And yeah, my first thought was all those kids who got subscriptions under their parents' names...
Posted by: Pyrrhonic
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July 6, 2010 6:18 PM
*sigh* Although I am not a regular poster on any forum, I am nervous enough about the consequences of exposing myself as an atheist that I wouldn't post here if I had to do it with my real name. There's always the chance that I may one day have to teach at a religiously affiliated university, and I don't need anything else shrinking the already small job pool.
Posted by: knitmeapony
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July 6, 2010 6:18 PM
Ah, my apologies on leaping to the (now obviously false) conclusion that 'interesting' meant 'a good idea'.
I've seen an awful lot of people promoting this idea of late, and it was a bit of a knee-jerk response.
I agree that some accountability is a great idea, but pseudonymous reputations can be built and relationships managed without these kinds of measures.
Posted by: Keren Embar
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July 6, 2010 6:20 PM
It will definitely affect the willingness of many players to write in their forums.
If a player uses an in-game name/nic as the game-ID. It is kind-of useless to use a totally different name when talking on forums about in-game issues. The reputation and credibility that player has in the game community will not be helpful because no one recognizes the real-ID anyway. unless they enforce the use of real-ID in-game as well and abolish nics- and that would really ruin a good game element.
It is a mess.
I hope they do not expect this to work like a magic DRM behind the scenes trick. There are always ways around this folly.
Posted by: Benny the Icepick
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July 6, 2010 6:22 PM
To be honest, all you need to do is look at some of the Facebook forums to see just how little having your real name matters in terms of what people post. Sure, it may cut out some of the most nasty trolls, but I don't see it as drumming up any significant amount of civility. Hell, they're WoW players - basement dwellers are not exactly known for their suave etiquette.
Posted by: Rachael
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July 6, 2010 6:22 PM
I'm pretty upset about what Blizzard is proposing. I don't post frequently on the forums, but if my real name is attached to any posts I won't be doing so at all in the future. Mostly because I don't want potential future employers to be able to google me and easily find out that I play WoW. People have certain been not hired/passed over for promotion/fired for dumber reasons.
Posted by: alex.asolis.net
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July 6, 2010 6:24 PM
Usually Pharyngula doesn't repeat what I read on Ars Technica so I was confused there for a second. :P
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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July 6, 2010 6:25 PM
I have a couple of legitimate reasons for using a pseudonym on the internet. I don't post in any Blizzard forums if I did then on the day before using real names became mandatory I'd post a "farewell friends, fuck you Blizzard" comment and cancel my WoW/Starcraft account.
Posted by: Porco Dio
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July 6, 2010 6:26 PM
so fukx you and i zerg youz anyways!
Posted by: PZ Myers
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July 6, 2010 6:26 PM
I repeat: THERE ARE NO PLANS TO EXPOSE NAMES HERE. I think it is sufficient accountability that one person, me, has access to limited tracing information.
Of course, you are all aware that you aren't perfectly anonymous on the interwebs, right?
Posted by: truthspeaker
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July 6, 2010 6:27 PM
This.
There are people who could lose their jobs if their employer found out they are atheists. Hell, there are people who could lose their jobs if their employers found out they posted swear words online. Remember the teacher in Florida who was fired for having consensual sex with a 20-year-old?
If I posted under my real name, it wouldn't affect me too much - I just wouldn't ever mention marijuana or other illegal drugs, in case my employer or, worse, a potential employer Googled my name. But some people are in far more vulnerable positions.
Posted by: irenedelse
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July 6, 2010 6:31 PM
Ah, yes: "interesting", as in the Chinese phrase "interesting times".
Posted by: AnthonyK
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July 6, 2010 6:33 PM
Well, of course this blog is a fascinating social experiment: almost unmoderated, the barest possible formatting, no avatars, no shite "member since", "pharyngula" "ball o'cells", "foetus", "unobornTM" monnickers...nothing execept comments. (Over a million of them.)
And hey, this one works!
How come?
We're (apparently) nasty, cliquey, tone-challenged, and aggressive: yet it's by far the most interesting blog I frequent. And the wittiest.
Does anyone else know anything, anywhere, to challenge it?
We must have Satan as moderator.
Or, at least, his damn effective PA.
Posted by: PZ Myers
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July 6, 2010 6:33 PM
Silencing debate about controversial subjects like religion, sex, drugs, and politics is exactly why requiring exposing actual names is a bad idea. The current rather open system allows a lot of noisemakers through, but it also enables frank discussions about stuff with personal repercussions.
Posted by: PenguinFactory
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July 6, 2010 6:34 PM
While an interesting idea, it's not going to affect the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory because it's not really removing anonymity- unless your relatives/friends post on the same forum and don't already know you do as well, you're still just some random guy with a screen-name talking to people you will probably never meet in real life.
The only actual way to counteract the Fuckwad Theory is to have people sit down and talk face to face in a setting where you can't just leave or ignore people you offend with your bullshit.
Posted by: stereodax
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July 6, 2010 6:35 PM
Bad idea! I already think I don't have enough control over this Google login I'm using here. My real name is traceable but people will have to put in some effort. Why? It wouldn't be the first time I received personal threats from Good Christians™ who did some searching online, just because I'm an ardent non-believer. This is also the reason I no longer hung out at the (now defunct) ethicalatheist.com.
Posted by: PZ Myers
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July 6, 2010 6:35 PM
Hey, I am the moderator here. Are you trying to expose my identity?
Posted by: raven
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July 6, 2010 6:36 PM
It's stupid, crazy, and dangerous as all hell.
As one who has been stalked, dealt with the local police and FBI, and received death threats and SLAPP suit threats for over 10 years, forget it.
I wouldn't advise anyone to do that. Being an atheist or even a suspected atheist can get you fired. We've seen examples on this very blog in the opening comment.
Famous next to last words. But that is illegal, religious discrimination. So what, you still end up fired. Famous last words. Naw it can't happen to me. Until it does.
Posted by: Shala
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July 6, 2010 6:39 PM
Fuck Activision.
Posted by: Zach
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July 6, 2010 6:42 PM
I find this to be pretty horrifying, honestly. The Real ID system introduced into Blizzard games recently already gives away your full name due to a really fucking stupid flaw in the system itself - you are on your own friends list, so third-party interface addons (something allowed under most circumstances) can actually find out your real name and, depending on the addon, send information back to the developer. That information would probably have to be sent by the user but the addon pack could have a malicious file buried in it and just send the info automatically.
At the very least, Real ID is voluntary.
The fact that the forums are forcing people to use their real names may just be a social experiment or a really excessive way to destroy the troll community, but either way, it's definitely stopping me from posting on there ever again. That's billing information they're giving out.
Posted by: cadfile.myopenid.com
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July 6, 2010 6:43 PM
As for stalking - if someone wants to find you using the Internet they will. If you have a phone in your own name or filed any public documents then more than likely you have been exposed. You would be surprised how much info is public online.
The Blizzard test will stop the hit and run trolls but there are plenty of people who are mean and do so under their real names now.
Posted by: Allen
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July 6, 2010 6:44 PM
Horrible idea made even worse by the fact that it could have real-world repercussions.
I usually don't have a problem with using my real name (I'm posting using it right now), and I'm already pretty outspoken with my opinions, and I understand my rights as an American, but some people aren't as fortunate as me to live in a country that protects one's freedom of speech.
Horrible, horrible idea.
Posted by: blunted
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July 6, 2010 6:45 PM
I just completed my corporate privacy compliance training for the year . I can fairly confidently say that:
a) It was really boring.
b) This is completely illegal here in Australia. Collecting billing information then repurposing it - or making it public - is a BIG no-no.
Posted by: truthspeaker
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July 6, 2010 6:47 PM
@AnthonyK - two reasons the Pharyngula experiment works are aggressive (but hidden) moderation by PZ and what I can only assume to be exceptionally well-written spam filters. If PZ left the comment section unattended for a while I'm sure it would be filled with the kind spam advertisements that have been showing up on Panda's Thumb recently, as well as trolls like Mabus and others.
Posted by: John Morales
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July 6, 2010 6:48 PM
I note that, under that proposed system, there will very likely be duplicate names.
They don't address that wrinkle.
Posted by: monimonika
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July 6, 2010 6:53 PM
John Morales:
I was wondering about that as well. Maybe they'll automatically append numbers to the duplicates?
Posted by: PZ Myers
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July 6, 2010 6:54 PM
We don't have moderation. We have a dungeon. We also have the other commenters to act as instruments of torture.
Posted by: truthspeaker
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July 6, 2010 6:55 PM
Hell, the TSA still hasn't figured that one out.
Posted by: Darren Garrison
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July 6, 2010 6:55 PM
Damn-- I might have to loose my pseudonym and start posting under my real name, Stdbukit389?
Posted by: Promii
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July 6, 2010 6:56 PM
Only World of Warcraft requires a subscription. I'm not sure how they are going to get real names out of Starcraft II owners.
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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July 6, 2010 6:57 PM
I've canceled my account - I'm a five-year veteran of the game. This change doesn't make me comfortable at all.
Posted by: Screechy_Monkey
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July 6, 2010 6:57 PM
I am perfectly comfortable with using my real name on the internet.
Signed,
John Smith
P.S. For some reason, my friend Bartholomew Q. Specklethorpeson, feels differently.
Posted by: anthrosciguy
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July 6, 2010 7:03 PM
I've spent some time with a person who is obssesive about using his real name online and who regularly blasts others for using pseudonyms, and he's one of the most regularly obnoxious gratuitous insulters I've ever seen.
Posted by: Dae
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July 6, 2010 7:03 PM
I used to play a lot of WoW and was active on the forums (still play a bit, much less active) - I actually think that while we'll see a decrease in idiotic trolling, it will be mostly attributable to people just stopping participation on the boards.
Some of my friends, myself included, are very upset about this change. I have never posted anything on any forum that I would have a problem with people I know (or potential employers) seeing, but I learned the disadvantages to broadcasting my (female) gender indiscriminately in an MMO very early on. I really, really, REALLY don't want the general public of WoW to know by my posting ID that I'm female; it's just too damn much hassle, and my name isn't terribly common, either. I'd be very easy to locate if anyone attempted to do so.
I'm mostly curious to see if the change lasts.
Posted by: John Morales
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July 6, 2010 7:04 PM
Screechy_Monkey @36, indeed!
Who is "John Morales"?
:)
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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July 6, 2010 7:09 PM
We know your real name is Walter Malcolm St. Norbert O'Shaunessy-Entwhistle III and you run "Walt's World of Whips" in Ft. Lauderdale. This P.Z. Myers facade is so weak as to be pathetic.
Posted by: Alverant
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July 6, 2010 7:12 PM
On a related note I read on a link from RawStory (the link is gone now) to the BBC about how climate scientists are getting hate mail and death threats from deniers egged on by terrorist enablers like Beck and Limbaugh. Some now hired body guards. Posting real names may help find out who these terrorists are, but it will also help them find more targets.
Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives
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July 6, 2010 7:13 PM
Seriously disturbing. The post knitmeapony linked to at #3 talks about a woman who has already been stalked IRL through those forums. What they need to do is to invest in their infrastructure and hire decent moderators if it's poster attitude they're worried about.
Posted by: Arthur Taylor
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July 6, 2010 7:14 PM
Personally I'm all for using my real name online. I don't fear stalkers, it's happened before and was dealt with and for the most part I'm too boring to stalk. I'm self employed so I have nothing to fear from snooping employers and live in a country where such snooping isn't encouraged (freedom of expression and all that, believe it or not the UK's pretty good about that). And frankly I prefer to debate and be a pain in the arse as myself. That and I can't decide on a handle, waste of my time.
But that's my choice. Shouldn't be anyone else's.
Posted by: knobody.livejournal.com
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July 6, 2010 7:14 PM
you mean we WoW players are just as bad as blog commenters? besides, i don't even have a basement.
Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives
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July 6, 2010 7:16 PM
Repeated for emphasis.
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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July 6, 2010 7:16 PM
Whoa, bad idea. I don't play any of those games or post on those forums, but having no option in regard to identity would keep me away. It's actually quite easy to figure out who I am, as I do conduct business over the net. Still, it does require a bit of effort on someone's part.
I have been net-stalked before, back in my usenet days. That's a bad situation, and it's silly to pretend things like that don't happen.
Posted by: shreddakj
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July 6, 2010 7:17 PM
I actually do play WoW and have tried out this new RealID system. You need to have people email address to add them to your RealID friends list. So your name isn't made public, only to people you accept as friends.
Posted by: sensenoy
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July 6, 2010 7:17 PM
I'm a network security spook, this is actually the first time I've been motivated posted here despite reading the blog voraciously for a couple of years now.
But this is a SERIOUS problem; WoW/Starcraft/Diablo players make up an actual fraction of the people who use the internet. Blizzard/Activision is using the success of their game to take a huge swipe not just at anonymity of their game, but the internet as a whole.
I may sound melodramatic but it's the truth; this will be justification for hundreds, thousands of other services to require real identification. It's a huge, HUGE step forward in the process of stripping the ability to remain anonymous off the internet.
It's an actual step forward along an incredibly scary path where private corporations know everything about what we do and who we are.
I'm worried to my gut right now. The ability to remain anonymous is under threat, and it's such an important tool for free expression.
Posted by: James R. Palmer II
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July 6, 2010 7:20 PM
My word. Blizzard does this just in time. When I got out of World of Warcraft. PZ, that was the major one to mention. WoW and all the others are good for people with money. More free games/ one pay for disc MMOs.
Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
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July 6, 2010 7:22 PM
Thanks, Blizzard.
I was just thinking that it'd been a while since I had a creepy stalker, and youf igure out a way to pipe them to me at top speed.
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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July 6, 2010 7:22 PM
@shreddakj:
Nope, not so anymore. If you post on the forums, your name is visible to everyone.
Posted by: AnthonyK
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July 6, 2010 7:22 PM
The proposed changes completely outrage me.
To be found commenting on a wank internet phenomenon with apparent interest is something I find deeply unsettling.
(Signed) Ivor Tinydick
Posted by: broboxley OT
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July 6, 2010 7:24 PM
Its really easy to get my real name as my posting name here is most of it. With a last name of Oxley there is a poet Laureate, legislators writers so an employer can google 30 or 40 pages in and not find negative comments. If they google the same thing with fucktard in the search, then Im in trouble. I was once threatened to be fired if I didnt quit posting online (non work comments) started cleaning out my cube until they realized I was going to walk and they hastily rescinded the edict. I dont post anything about work unless it is public eg: rfc's etc or protocols so no worries there.
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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July 6, 2010 7:27 PM
I'm mostly worried about people like my brother. There are CRAZIES on the Internet. You slight someone or anger the wrong person, and you can have someone at your door. If that happened, my brother and his wife and kid would be in danger.
I'm sure it's happened before.
Posted by: alareth
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July 6, 2010 7:28 PM
I am Spartacus
Posted by: Sastra
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July 6, 2010 7:29 PM
I wonder if women as a group are more hesitant to reveal real-life names, as well as their gender. In addition to concerns about stalking, sometimes the tone and content of a discussion can change when people start to re-frame it according to some sort of male-female dynamic.
I do find it odd, though, that people think that revealing one's actual name will make a person feel more accountable and concerned with reputation. From what I've seen, over time people get very attached to the reputation of their persona, within the context of their online community. There's not really a distinction. Or, perhaps, it can go either way.
Which one of "me" is supposed to be the "real" one?
Posted by: w.austin.yun
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July 6, 2010 7:29 PM
I just started playing WoW about a month ago (late to to party, I know), but I've been playing Blizzard games since 1998.
Honestly, I don't care, despite the fact that I know and understand all the privacy concerns. If I want anonymity, I'll go to 4chan, thank you very much.
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble OM4Jesus
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July 6, 2010 7:29 PM
Pseudonyms?
You all use pseudonyms?
No wonder Floyd Rubber and I could never find any of you in the phone book! Are we the only ones who use our real names?
Tell you what, atheists. Post your real names and Floyd and I will stop by for an evening of prayer and body modification.
Yours in Christurbation
Smoggy
Posted by: broboxley OT
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July 6, 2010 7:30 PM
@sensanoy#48 corp america already has a dongle coming out of your buttocks this wont be much worse.
There is a large body of folks out there that run sneaker servers, anonymizers and proxy agents. Now for Joe schmoo he doesnt care, he wants his amazon, porn ebay google and craigslist. The crooks dont care because all they want is Joe's ID to move stuff thru the chat rooms and on the private nets. It will only be a problem when shouting over the intarwebs ends up with a pounding on the door and a nutter with a gun outside. Wow, may make people polite, shrug
Posted by: CW
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July 6, 2010 7:30 PM
@4
If I think I have the right to speak my mind, if I think its my place to offend, I can damned well face the consequences rather than hiding behind some pseudonym.
Net life is real life, and the people I communicate with(at) are real human beings. If people are going to suffer the vagaries of my moods and opinions, I should have the balls to face them unmasked.While that may work out for you, it's absolutely horrible for some women, transgender, people of color, people in repressive countries, people with opposing viewpoints, you are coming from a place of privilege to brag about your choice to do this.
I helped admin a ~200k member forum, and had to negotiate a number of cases where members would stalk and harass other members, sometimes IRL.
This should ALWAYS only be a choice to give up your anonymity. It should not be taken from you. The internet is not full of nothing but good, well-intentioned, and sane people. Plenty of people who do not belong interacting in society lurk around.
Not to be scaremongering, but trying to point out that some people have legitimate reasons for doing so, and that your choices are not applicable to all.
Posted by: deiloh
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July 6, 2010 7:30 PM
The only thing that gets me to second guess my writing is knowing my Mom is going to read it. How do Moms do that?
Posted by: knobody
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July 6, 2010 7:31 PM
you mean we are as bad as blog commenters? oh wait, i get it. this is your example of nasty trolling? very clever.
Posted by: Keren Embar
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July 6, 2010 7:32 PM
Answering #47- that may be the current situation but what they are planing is to forcibly and publicly out the identity of anyone who post on their forums. Its very Wrong and quite different from the mild version you describe.
Posted by: shreddakj
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July 6, 2010 7:33 PM
@Kevin
Wow I had no idea, I went and looked on my realm forums and people are complaining about it already and it hasn't even taken place. This is a really bad idea.
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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July 6, 2010 7:34 PM
@shreddakj:
It's a horrible idea. I wouldn't mind if I had an 'opt in' choice (hell no) but it's basically a lose-lose: have your identity exposed or don't post on the forums.
Posted by: Kirk
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July 6, 2010 7:36 PM
I've always figured that somebody was going to get a PhD by analyzing the posts to Pharyngula. Nice work if you can get it.
Posted by: Shplane, some shit in french
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July 6, 2010 7:37 PM
Meh, true internet anonymity isn't going to last long anyways. A platform with real freedom of speech is far too threatening to those in power. We'll have something like this on every website via government mandate soon enough, unless people really fight against it. Honestly, I doubt that many will.
Posted by: Cerberus, unnatural product of en-OMnomnom-ification
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July 6, 2010 7:41 PM
knitmeapony @3
What she said.
I don't play WoW, but I respected that it was one of the few online communities and especially gaming communities that had a good male-female mix. I.e. women weren't discouraged from playing it.
But this change is completely tone death and will lead to a massive exodus of women if not from the game, then at least from the forums. To many women, stalking, especially from online or maliciously from ex-partners, is not an abstraction. It's a genuine worry. Often something they have experienced personally.
Having an illusion of safety that a pseudonym provides can allow one to settle and relax without having to worry that the psycho ex who keeps on trying to re-friend you on facebook or calls all your old acquaintances for your new address will be able to find you on WoW and make your life a living hell.
We talked a lot on the "Woman Problem" thread about how if something you invest time and money into ends up causing psychological pain or having to dodge people making you uncomfortable, then most people will refrain from investing that time and money in the future.
Right now, WoW provides an escapism, a place where you can belong and just sort of tune out the real world for this magical world.
And this is a giant yank back into the real world, a chain connecting this escapist venture to your real life body.
That means all the shit you are tired from real life will follow you. And for women that can mean stalkers, people treating you like you don't know anything because you are a girl, people targeting you with sexist or racist comments because your race and gender are now obvious, etc...
And it won't stop the trolls, because assholes really don't care and don't care enough about their own privilege to not be giant assholes.
It's guaranteed to run off those who would be mosteffected by trolling and least effect those most apt to troll.
In short, it's probably one of the dumbest decisions in Blizzard history right behind the comedy of errors that happened to Starcraft:Ghost.
Posted by: shreddakj
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July 6, 2010 7:41 PM
@Kevin
I'm not too concerned about my privacy for what I do on the rest of the internet, google search my handle, and you'll be able to find my blog, youtube, facebook and thus real name and city. But when I'm playing games under other pseudonyms... I don't want that to all be ruined too.
Posted by: Tulse
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July 6, 2010 7:42 PM
I can (possibly) understand why Blizzard might feel it needs to know who you are. I cannot comprehend why they feel everyone else needs to.
I have no problem with pseudonymous posting. I feel I owe people a consistent 'nym, but there is absolutely no reason why other folks I discuss things with should know where I live. And frankly, the only difference between using a consistent 'nym and a real name is people being able to find you in meatspace. No thanks.
Posted by: CW
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July 6, 2010 7:45 PM
Also to the people yukking it up about WoW, it'll occur with Starcraft, Diablo, and every game they release, let alone the other communities that will take this up, until we put a stop to it.
Posted by: Chgo_Liz
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July 6, 2010 7:45 PM
I wonder how many women will continue to post there?
Posted by: shreddakj
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July 6, 2010 7:48 PM
@ chgo_liz
None.
Posted by: MJP
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July 6, 2010 7:51 PM
Never played WoW. Now I know I never will.
Posted by: shreddakj
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July 6, 2010 7:51 PM
BRB cancelling my subscription (not joking)
Posted by: Dae
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July 6, 2010 7:52 PM
Cerberus #68 said
Exactly.
And yes, Sastra, at least on public gaming forums, we tend to be very cautious about revealing gender and/or name. There's enough of a mix on the Blizzard forums at this point that I really don't care if people know that my avatar links to a female player, but my name?! To hell with that. I've been cyberstalked within the game before and that was no fun, but if that fuckwad had been able to get my real name, it could have been a lot more serious than an in-game irritation.
This is huge, and so stupid it hurts, on Blizzard's part. I guarantee they'll have lawsuits on the table when someone gets traced to their residence and stalked (even though technically they shouldn't be liable since I'm sure in the new forum Terms and Conditions there will be something about you understanding and agreeing that your real name will be public) - even if they win they'll be paying litigation costs. And that's even before you count the cost of what the change will do to the forum environment in the form of driving people away.
Posted by: robertdw
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July 6, 2010 7:53 PM
1) You don't need a RealID to play the games. Completely optional.
2) You can still have in-game "friends" and contacts without RealID.
3) You only need a RealID for _cross_ game (or, with WoW, cross-realm) friends, and to post to the forums.
4) It's only public if you've posted on the forums.
5) The vast majority of Blizzard's customers do not post on the forums. So the vast majority of Blizzard's customers aren't affected.
6) Blizzard's playground, Blizzard's rules.
7) The privacy-concerned will simply head over to alternative forums.
Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives
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July 6, 2010 7:54 PM
It's also unclear whether it will be retroactive - if every post a person has ever made will now suddenly have their name put on it. It's bad enough to force people to post under their real names, but the possibility that they will go back and out comments that were made under the assumption of pseudonymity... I can't even describe what a terrible thing that would be to some people.
Posted by: Cerberus, unnatural product of en-OMnomnom-ification
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July 6, 2010 7:55 PM
chgo_liz @72
A prediction.
They have a sudden loss of female posters, sexist trolling and trolling in general (because trolling at least in my experience tends to shoot up with anxious masculinity and a feeling of being in "safe space" to be aggressively privileged) and in a year or two Blizzard will be posting a version of "The Woman Problem" thread wondering why the threads have devolved so much and what can be done about it.
Sadly since no women will want to comment on said threads, the advice will be completely terrible and the idiots who thought this would be a great way to stop trolls will fail to address the problems and the female gamers in the community will feel less apt to trust any future solutions so even good fixes will be slow in correcting the problem, especially with a forum now aggressively dude nation.
Posted by: Philip Legge
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July 6, 2010 7:56 PM
Hi Smoggy, at #58 above you wrote:
Well, you’ll find mine in one of the other threads, and I look forward to meeting yourself and Floyd one day – in the meantime, why don’t you stop in there yourself? That thread’s in dire need of your deft touch.
Cheers PML
(Obligatory PS on-topic: I’m not usually inclined to pseudonymity, but as Pharyngula attracts it’s fair share of Internet crazies and the comment registration system is so crappy, it’s quite understandable here that a lot of posters are pseudonymous.
The act of publicly “uncloaking” posters who’ve assumed that their real-world identities were going to be held privately is pretty reprehensible, unless it’s done with their explicit consent – I recall one of the ScienceBloggers losing a lot of credibility for doing this without the poster’s consent, not so long ago.)
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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July 6, 2010 7:58 PM
@robertdw:
Hope you don't have a problem that requires a post to the Technical Support forum or Customer Service. That great idea you have for a fix to a quest, guess you'll never be able to post it on the Suggestions forum.
The forums are mostly voluntary, but there are those times when you simply must post on them.
Posted by: Tabby Lavalamp
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July 6, 2010 8:01 PM
I don't even use my real name on Facebook. I mentioned this in the "Who are you?" comments, but I pride myself on my anonymity and because of that my real name doesn't show up on Google searches. Unless a credit card is required, I've also got a standard pseudonym I use whenever I'm signing up somewhere and it asks for first and last names.
At the same time, Google "Tabby Lavalamp" and I'm all over the place. It's a pseudonym, but it's one I've used for years would never want to sully any more than I would my actual name.
Fortunately I have no interest in anything that would bring me to the Blizzard forums anyway.
Posted by: Epinephrine
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July 6, 2010 8:01 PM
Glad to hear you won't be doing it, PZ :)
I suspect it's not a great idea for the Blizzard forums, but it fortunately won't affect me. Now if Guild Wars did it, I'd be annoyed :P
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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July 6, 2010 8:03 PM
@Tabby Lavalamp:
I think you're lying...
YOUR REAL NAME IS TABBY LAVALAMP!
Posted by: Cerberus, unnatural product of en-OMnomnom-ification
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July 6, 2010 8:04 PM
robertdw @77
Indeed.
However.
1) The official forums will see a sudden exodus of female gamers. Because as you say, that's the rules for the forums.
2) The official forums will consequentially become "Dude Nation" and as we saw in the complaints listed in "The Woman Problem" thread, this causes problems in real life interactions, so one would expect the same online (even with real names).
3) Any woman who risks posting on the official forums will risk real-world stalking which is not an abstract worry for most women, but a real day-to-day problem.
4) Developers seeking to address the swamp their forums have now become will have no way to listen to the complaints of their female gamers because they will have abandoned the official forums and the developers and mods will not be going to the effort to track down and read the "Unofficial Forums" just to get a pulse on the community.
5) Blizzard could see economic punishment in women who decide to give the game a miss altogether because the change makes them feel uncomfortable and no one wants to devote time and money into something that makes them feel scuzzy.
6) Thus, Blizzard could lose one of the good things going for WoW and makes it so hard to kill, the fact that female gamers are in good proportion to male gamers in the game and thus female gamers don't feel alienated and thus like they want to devote more time to it.
In short, it's a dumb business decision, as well as a dumb social decision.
As we noted in the "Woman Problem" thread. Women who aren't having fun at something that costs money and time? Don't continue to spend money and time there. Go home, don't bother to return. And for a game that requires continual subscriptions, that's not something you want to do lightly.
Posted by: moochava
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July 6, 2010 8:08 PM
I remember a gay friend of mine talking about gay-friendly guilds in WoW, and how hard it was to clear a non-homophobic space where he felt safe and comfortable. A lot of gay people used the forums to coordinate their...big gay raids? Whatever it is people do in World of Warcraft. I guess they can say goodbye to that vector of organization.
Posted by: dtm
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July 6, 2010 8:10 PM
What I find odd when people propose this (tying certain forms of posting to RealIdentity(TM) of the week) is that by and large the people proposing it seem to think:
1) That there isn't any reason except vanity or trolling that anyone else would mind having their posts associated with their real name, and
2) That knowing someone's name pins down even vaguely who that person is, and so is something people would be wary of sullying with trolling or other bad behavior.
(1) has already been covered extensively in the thread here. How about (2), though?
My name - Daniel Martin - is effectively Googleproof because there are so many of us out there. Sure, from this post you could find out more about me because you'll have a link to my livejournal thanks to the magic of OpenId, but go ahead and just try to find out something about me based only on my name.
No, I'm not an Oklahoma state trooper.
No, I'm not an English Footballer.
No, I'm not the main character in a book by John Fowles. (That I know of)
No, I'm not the owner of danielmartin.com, or .org, or .net or .whatever.
Posted by: shreddakj
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July 6, 2010 8:12 PM
@moochava I have quite a few gay friends on my server in WoW too
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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July 6, 2010 8:14 PM
@dtm:
Unfortunately, that's not always the case. There are many situations where someone's name is all that's needed to perform identity theft attacks or find out much more info about them than they'd want.
Plus consider the female effect, lots of women don't want to have stalkers - which can happen in this situation.
Posted by: Cerberus, unnatural product of en-OMnomnom-ification
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July 6, 2010 8:17 PM
dtm @87
And those who would be the least googleproofed would be minority groups.
Sure, Daniel Martin is googleproof as are a lot of white male names. But what about a LaMar Jackson? Or a Suresh Rattan? Or a Magdalena Poto?
Bob Johnson, white male asshole isn't going to care about his name getting out. But someone who's more findable is. And someone who knows that someone is googling their name to continue their harassment campaign because "how dare the bitch leave me" is certainly not going to be comfortable about it.
Hell, my partner's rapist tracked down her new apartment calling basically all acquaintances until he could find one willing to tell him so he could make double-plus-sure she wasn't entertaining any notions about pressing charges several years after the fact (and before I knew even part of the story, or I would have met him at the door with a baseball bat).
Another friend had one of her stalkers break into her house and try and sneak into her room while she was sleeping.
And the news are filled with stories of women who thought they escaped abusive exes only to have them track them down and kill them for "daring to run away".
Overall, "tone death" stupid idea.
Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives
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July 6, 2010 8:18 PM
That's an easy one:
...be privileged members of society who have never feared for their own safety or suffered from social repercussions based on who they are.
Posted by: seculargaytheist
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July 6, 2010 8:19 PM
I would love it if my handle was my real name. My parents would have had some problems with that of course.
What do you think PZ?
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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July 6, 2010 8:24 PM
Of course, I post under my real name...
... or do I?
Maybe I am a bloke, or maybe not. The question you must ask yourselves now is; is it worth flrting with me to find out..?
;-p
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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July 6, 2010 8:25 PM
@Gregory Greenwood:
/flirt
Posted by: PZ Myers
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July 6, 2010 8:27 PM
I'm not playing WoW myself anymore -- I had to drop it since I wasn't finding enough time to do it anyway -- but when I was, it was on the gayest server in the system, Proudmoore. And I got the faintest glimpse of the difficulties of being gay from that. There is a cross-server utility that lets you join in random groups, and it was often the case that as soon as I joined, people would notice the Proudmoore server name, and the fag jokes would start...and if I should make even the slightest mistake in the game, it was instantly attributed to my fagginess. There is a huge amount of childish homophobia in that population.
It was awkward to deal with, too. I'm hetero, but I couldn't argue with them by asserting that -- it just buys into their premise that homosexuality is a bad thing. I had a policy of stating immediately after the first snide fag remark that they had to knock off the gay bashing, which never ever worked because that would immediately start a new round of it, and then just drop the group without comment with the second slur.
I abandoned a lot of groups. It was annoying, too, because there is a time limit on when you can join another group.
Anyway, Proudmoore has several big gay guilds with large enrollments, with most of the players playing under pseudonyms. Blizzard is effectively announcing their willingness to out people with this new policy.
Of course, Blizzard hasn't been particularly supportive of gay interest groups using their game for community, so they may see this as an effective way to slap down open gay pride.
Posted by: llewelly
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July 6, 2010 8:28 PM
I think we'll continue to see that the pseudonymity of the internet is largely a temporary thing. In the long run, enough details will leak out, via mistakes, via companies that abandon pseudonymity like Blizzard just has, and so forth, that nearly all pseudonyms eventually become transparent. Computers store and copy information far too well to support strong pseudonymity, which naturally requires a loss of information.
Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives
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July 6, 2010 8:31 PM
Wait a minute here Gregory, you're using a real-sounding name as a fake name? That's totally cheating.
/flirt
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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July 6, 2010 8:33 PM
On a more serious note, net anonymity is vital for people to feel secure enough to express themselves. Forcing someone to perform any type of internet based interaction with the community at large under their real name irrersponsibly increases the risk of cyber-stalking, that can easily lead to flesh-space stalking.
It is also an unfortunate fact of our society that women are disproportionally vulnerable to this form of abuse.
It seeems to me that the usually highly savvy Blizzard have made a very bad decision, both from the narrow point of view of their bottom line, and more generally in terms of the security of internet users.
Blizzard is a highly successful and influential company. Where Blizzard leads, others often follow in the industry, and this could have implications far beyond the Blizzard forums.
Posted by: Cerberus, unnatural product of en-OMnomnom-ification
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July 6, 2010 8:34 PM
I think part of Blizzard's stupidity stems from the belief that trolling is somehow unique to the internet and is a new phenomenon.
It's not. It's a combination of a variety of bullying techniques, name-calling, stalking, shutting down rival voices by annoying or bullying individual members, creating unsafe spaces, or openly trying to hurt people with words.
All things we know well in the "Real World" and hell, the current Republican Party platform is one of openly trolling liberals and trying to make them hurt rather than address real issues.
Removing anonymity won't make the problem go away, because trolling is not unique to the internet and its pseudonymity.
Posted by: Tabby Lavalamp
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July 6, 2010 8:37 PM
Kevin @ 84... CURSES! You found me out, damn you!
Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives
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July 6, 2010 8:40 PM
Another post about it with contact information for Blizzard here. Also has the interesting information that "Game Masters" are required to live in either Irving CA or Austin TX and will also fall victim to the RealNaming, so finding them, not so hard.
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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July 6, 2010 8:40 PM
@Tabby Lavalamp:
Haha, I knew it!
Posted by: shreddakj
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July 6, 2010 8:41 PM
@PZ
My cousin plays on Proudmoore lol. I'll have to ask him about this.
Posted by: magista
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July 6, 2010 8:43 PM
I'm another one of those who could be easily identified by real name - there's only one of me in the entire world. (I know, because my parents made up a new name when they got married).
This is a completely and utterly awful idea, for the various reasons so eloquently expressed above by so many.
Posted by: llewelly
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July 6, 2010 8:43 PM
PZ Myers | July 6, 2010 6:26 PM:
Of course you have no such plans. However, even the best system administrators make mistakes, and few organizations maintain a cadre of high-quality system administrators for long. Most companies eventually get bought, undergo a merger, or some other change of management that radically alters policies. Any of the above could result in revelation of any stored user information. And don't discount enemies; Pharyngula clearly has some, and maybe one day some of them will develop certain skills. And perhaps some criminal will conclude scienceblogs has something worth stealing.
It's reasonable to expect pseudonymity here to have a small chance of vanishing in any given year, but in the long run, it's quite likely to go away, or be temporarily broken. No one on the internet should assume that they can remain pseudonymous forever.
Posted by: sevenseti
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July 6, 2010 8:44 PM
This 'experiment' has already begun. A moderator on the Starcraft 2 forum posted under his real name. It didn't take long for someone to track down his Facebook, Twitter, phone number, home address and the fact that he lives with his mother.
Hopefully this incident will make Blizzard reconsider the idea. If it goes live, I certainly will not be posting on the forums anymore.
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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July 6, 2010 8:45 PM
Carlie @ 97;
What can I say? I am either a non-conformist cheat, or I am double-bluffing...
Either way, I am an attention-whore.
I will give you a clue; I really like intelligence in any prospective partner, but whether I find it attractive in a man, a woman, or both is for me to know, and for you lot to (try) to find out...
/flirt
Kevin @ 94;
Why, hello handsome...
:-)
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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July 6, 2010 8:46 PM
@Gregory Greenwood:
How you doin'?
Posted by: Donald Oats
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July 6, 2010 8:47 PM
I've never used WoW, but I can appreciate any anxiety that such a change in policy may cause otherwise anonymous players.
Personally, I use my name, and in the words of another person here, I'm too boring to bother tracking. My one exception is where I have in the past blog-posted on a medical site. It wouldn't take much imagination to figure it out though, and again it would be very boring to such a hacker. Russian crims won't care whether I use a pseudonym or not, as it is the billing info and associated details revealed by me in my posts that they care about, and I just assume that the various blog-site servers are vulnerable to hack-attacks.
Anyway, who is to say that my sign-in name isn't a pseudonym anyway - grabbed at random from the phonebook?
And in case there is any doubt among employers, I am a lifelong atheist, for all practical purposes. Never got what religion was about as a young child; probably from reading too many books about the universe and dinosaurs, and found too many fossilised shells before religion's first sneaky and underhanded attempt to steal my non-existent soul. Lucky that. I heartily recommend giving such books to young children, well before their first encounter with the religious culture.
And interestingly, when it comes to choice of religion for children, this article made the Age newspaper this morning (July 7th, Aussie time).
Posted by: alex.besogonov
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July 6, 2010 8:48 PM
"It's not an interesting experiment -- it's downright dangerous."
Actually, no. I quite fondly remember FidoNET where real names were mandated, along with your PHONE NUMBER (and that was before the days of cheap cellphones, remember).
It did promote useful discussions. And trolls were usually more subtle and interesting to battle with.
Posted by: ecpaulsen
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July 6, 2010 8:48 PM
I am just as loud and opinionated when I use my real name - Eric Paulsen. The people who weant me to use a pseudonym are family and friends who fear for my safety.
Posted by: Dae
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July 6, 2010 8:48 PM
I've been over to the 400+ page thread of people protesting the decision on the WoW forums, and seen some accusations of this being a business decision that has nothing to do with upping the standards of forum conduct; something to do with joining the Facebook social amoeba.
Anyone have any facts on this?
Whether or not Blizzard's getting some benefit I'm not yet quite grokking, it's still a bloody terrible idea. They still have to care about their PR, and this is not good for it.
Posted by: PZ Myers
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July 6, 2010 8:49 PM
I like this comment at Shakesville:
Exactly, man.
shreddakj: Your cousin will be familiar with Taint on the Horde side, and the Stonewall guilds on Alliance side, I'm sure. Big gay guilds, they've even got subguilds of their guilds.
Posted by: SubTachyon
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July 6, 2010 8:49 PM
I don't recall WoW/Battle.net forums to be a good breeding grounds for serious discussion anyways. I tried to start a serious topic couple of times with minimum sucess. Most of it is just people whining about other classes.
Posted by: evergreenotter
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July 6, 2010 8:54 PM
The stiffling levels of political correctness and religious entitlement make it dangerous to hold certain opinions.
I have mature, but withering anti-religious comments under my real name, published when I was in graduate school and now available online. People have mentioned them more than once, including as a personal aside during a job interview. Fortunately the person appreciated free thinkers, but a lot of people do not.
Worse I not only criticised Christianity, but Islam, which of course places me somewhere to the right of Joseph Goebbels on the PC police index.
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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July 6, 2010 8:54 PM
Kevin @ 108;
Why, thank you for your interest, kind sir/madam. I am just surfing the net a little after my night out with the girls/lads at my local night club/gay bar/French restaurant.
How about you, hon/buddy?
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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July 6, 2010 8:55 PM
Gregory Greenwood:
Doesn't matter to me, I'm bi. Hi ya, dollface. ;D
Back on topic, as you, me and others have pointed out, women are at risk for stalking incidents; I'd like to add that so are a whole of LGBT people. There are real world dangers involved in allowing people no choice in regard to identity.
Posted by: Harbo
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July 6, 2010 8:57 PM
Loss of anonymity would be a deterrent to the free(ish) discussion on Pharangula and its ilk.
And I would actually miss the trolls and poes.
But I do not delude myself that there is anonymity from the moment you hit send on any keyboard.
Not too paranoid just realistic?
Posted by: gilljays
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July 6, 2010 8:57 PM
To an outsider, it probably looks like an interesting experiment, but there are a lot of valid reasons why the response to this announcement has already been overwhelmingly negative. (Background: I'm a WoW player who does not use the official forums, but I have read quite a lot of opinions on this topic already today).
In context, it's one of series of increasing questionable uses of information by Blizzard. Last month, they first introduced a system for communicating across their games (i.e. allowing someone playing Warcraft to message someone playing Starcraft in-game). Use of the feature requires using your real name and email address. That got largely negative feedback, but can be avoided by not using the system. The new feature can be avoided by not using the forums at all, of course. But there's a significant fear that Blizzard is going to push it further.
More on-topic though: revealing real names on forum posts has more ramifications than deterring trolls. Most importantly:
1) Even legitimate posters (i.e. non-trolls) are now subject to fear of harassment. If your real name is revealed, those who intend to harass you will of course do so through other channels than the Blizzard forums, retaining their own anonymity in the process. Think, for example, of the stereotypical treatment of female gamers/nerds to see the potential problem here.
2) Videogaming is not a well-regarding hobby in many communities and professions. Anyone posting on the Blizzard forums will now leave themselves open to being discovered through Google by a potential employer. Anyone involved in hiring processes knows that this might be seriously undesirable.
Once again, I understand how from the outside this looks like a potentially progressive social experiment. But even though trying to increase accountability on the internet might be a noble goal, this is a highly ill-conceived way of trying to do so. I think you will find that most informed people on the topic will consider this not to be an interesting experiment, but rather a very worrisome privacy intrusion by a large corporation at the expense of its customers.
Posted by: Teshi
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July 6, 2010 9:01 PM
I prefer to use a pseudonym so I can feel free to be real-me and not the professional version of me.
Not that I'm the most unprofessional person, but I would prefer that potential employers not be able to look up my every debate comment from the time I was seventeen anymore than I want them to be able to look in on my bar conversation. I understand the expectation of total privacy is ridiculous, but you usually at least have to try to link a pseudonym to real names.
I would not feel comfortable debating under my real name.
Posted by: Hawk
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July 6, 2010 9:01 PM
I was looking forward to StarCraft II and Diablo III - not anymore. I am disabled, so I don't have to worry about an employer Googling my name, but my wife does. There is still the issue of stalkers, and just plain old privacy rights. No thank you Blizzard. If they want to link all accounts of one person under a 'Global Handle' or something - that's fine. But to give out real names and e-mail addresses is completely and totally wrong.
Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives
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July 6, 2010 9:06 PM
Kevin @108: Please tell me you typed that with a Vinnie Barbarino accent.
Here's another angle that even privileged d00ds should be able to get - in the real world, you can make different social circles. The people you go out for a beer with are not the people you work with who are not the people you chat with when you pick your mom up from her weekly bingo game. You act at least slightly differently in each situation, especially if you have a job like, say, being a middle school teacher. Physical distance is used to separate those groups and the information you share in those groups.
Now think of the internet. How do you segregate those groups on the internet? Sometimes there are closed forums and sites, but most of them are open to anyone to read. Your mom's bridge friend can read the screed about *insert topic here* you mouthed off to your beer buddy. Your boss can read that comment you wrote once about how much you hate your job. Your 13-year old students can read about how much fun you had at the BDSM Expo on vacation, as can their parents who can then complain to the school board about you. The only way to even attempt to separate those out on the internet is to have pseudonyms for each group. Otherwise your entire life is the Truman Show, broadcasting on all channels all the time.
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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July 6, 2010 9:12 PM
@Carlie:
No, not Vinnie. Joey from Friends. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc2Z7CL4Cv0
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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July 6, 2010 9:12 PM
Caine, Fleur du mal OM @ 117;
Well hello...*
You are absolutely right. Given the horrifyingly high level of homophobia in our society, and the casual bigotry that seems ubiquitous in most online games communities and their associated forums, this policy is doubly irresponsible.
It is about time the gaming industry at least made some attempt to deal effectively with online homophobia, and not in the moronic fashion of Bungie, who apparently thought that the best solution to homophobia on the Halo 3 servers was to punish anyone who mentioned or implied their sexuality in their gamer-tag or online discussions. Once again, blaming the victim is in vogue...
* If I may misquote a legendary work of romantic cinema;
"Of all teh intertoobs in all teh web, she had to post on mine..."
;-)
Posted by: CW
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July 6, 2010 9:12 PM
@110
Actually, no. I quite fondly remember FidoNET where real names were mandated, along with your PHONE NUMBER (and that was before the days of cheap cellphones, remember).
It did promote useful discussions. And trolls were usually more subtle and interesting to battle with.You may not have noticed, but the internet is more than a small community of greybeards and kids who know each other in clumps of forty who meet at their local computer club.
The forum I helped admin had a few users that turned out to be actual murderers. As in killed multiple people. With over a few hundred thousand users, that's statistically probable.
This is not a good idea for speech and for safety. This is not a trade-off worth making. The scale of the internet communication and socialization at this point is incomparable to my BBS' of old.
Posted by: Donald Oats
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July 6, 2010 9:19 PM
There may be real repercussions for WoW players who use the anonymity to post on the gay and lesbian boards; some people may wish to keep that aspect of their lives private, for good reason. For example, the USA military has struggled for years with how to deal with homosexuality and has a dirt-poor record on the issue. Then there are the friends and acquaintances (parents and family too) who mightn't be privvy to this extra facet of the - until recently - anonymous poster. Heavy, dude!
Perhaps WoW should consider some level of moderation and sin-binning of bad-bloggers who break etiquette. Certainly, it should be an opt-in thing; eg, opt-in to avoid moderation surveillance at the price of using your real name, or remain anonymous and be subject to moderation queues etc.
Or, WoW could just bury this dumb idea rather than subject its players to retrospective loss of anonymity. Use monitoring tools to detect potential abusive behaviour, check and sin-bin/eject guilty bloggers.
Posted by: Bebs
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July 6, 2010 9:25 PM
Blizzard is overreacting in a huge way here. They do have a terrible forum problem - that place is so fraught with trolls, their mods can't possibly keep up.
The trouble with Blizzard's forums now is that you can choose any avatar from your account to post - and that means you can make dozens of names to post separately. People make "alts" just to back themselves up in discussions or just to start crap - it is ridiculous, especially with the kids who play.
The solution is quite simple: let users set up ONE forum persona of their choice - could be a character name, actual name, or whatever they like - and link it to a profile of all characters on the account. Everyone then stays semi-anonymous. Your real name isn't out there, but most posters would be keenly aware that their forum activity could reflect badly when they try to join a guild or get a group.
Add to that a zero-tolerance policy: you violate the forum TOS, you're tossed off the boards. This approach worked for Sony's games, and the community got in line very quickly. Two small changes and privacy is preserved while trolling problems drop to a manageable level. Done.
As for me? No way I'd play the game with this in effect. I'm female, my name is unique, I have a professional presence online that must be preserved separately from my gaming activity, and frankly, I just wouldn't agree to such a thing anyway. Plus I was a PvP'er in a battleground-focused guild. We kill players daily. We don't quest or raid unless there's an item we need to use for killing actual people - its all we're there to do (and we're well-equipped, efficient killers to boot - but we're generally maddeningly polite about it). You think I killed enough folks to get plenty of angry whispers and posts? Oh I did, especially when they realized I was female. There's no way in hell I'll voluntarily allow those raging kids to find my real name, use it to get my readily available cell number and address, then harass me or my clients. No.
*Note: Before you go off thinking I'm just a jerk for pk'ing all the time, I stick to battlegrounds (PvP only instances), not "ganking" or trifling with lower levels. And frankly, fighting AI mobs is too easy and methodical - its much more challenging and fun to fight actual players with their creative and unpredictable reactions.
Posted by: CW
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July 6, 2010 9:28 PM
Even still, who cares? It's within the rules of the game. The very POINT to this is that being a jerk online should not be an invitation to personal harassment IRL, something they are actively encouraging. They WANT people to know who you are, as if sociopaths will somehow stop being sociopaths, and as if psychopaths will not be afraid to retaliate.Posted by: seculargaytheist
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July 6, 2010 9:28 PM
@PZ 95
That's not surprising. I have a feeling some of these video game companies aren't that much different than the juvenile homophobic mentality of young men who have pet names for their penises they cater to.
Posted by: raven
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July 6, 2010 9:30 PM
Back at the dawn of the internet, I used to frequent a forum where it was common for people to use their real names.
One poster was having obvious personal difficulties of some sort. Then he disappeared. A few months later, someone copied a news report. He had shot it out with the cops in a very inept daylight robbery and was killed.
1. That was when I realized that people who seem to be mentally ill online are, in fact, mentally ill.
2. And that the internet is not always a game.
3. Strangely enough, the guy seemed far more coherent and sane than many of the trolls that show up on Pharyngula and PT.
Posted by: dillman.alan
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July 6, 2010 9:30 PM
@60 CW re:@4
Sure, but I was talking about just me. Like you said, I have a little slack, a little room for ego driven indulgence.
I can fully appreciate that someone else might have a very valid reason for not presenting their true identity online. Your points were completely valid. And they(and you) are likely nicer people than I am.
Posted by: broboxley OT
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July 6, 2010 9:31 PM
@gregory greenwood #116 French Restaurant? Flaming
Posted by: Not Guilty
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July 6, 2010 9:37 PM
Funny. My real name just got linked to my pseudonym such that it is easier than it was before to make the connection. I am a little distressed about it, mainly because I am just getting my career off the ground and I am very vocal. I hold the same views in real life, but I present them with a little more tact. That is my new plan online: increased tact!
Posted by: John Morales
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July 6, 2010 9:43 PM
Carlie @122: Insightful +1.
Posted by: Cerberus, unnatural product of en-OMnomnom-ification
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July 6, 2010 9:47 PM
dillman.alan @131
Yeah, what one might do personally is often different than a good mandatory policy.
I don't really protect my psuedonymity very well, a determined stalker could probably easily find me, I'm fairly similar in real life so a lot of the professional benefits have already sailed and I eventually plan to break my pseudonymity when it comes time to promote the finished versions of some projects I'm starting.
But that's me and I haven't really had to deal with stalkers or bullies in a long while. For other people, having spaces of pseudonymity isn't just necessary for mental health, but can be the literal difference between life and death if someone wants to have at least part of a life while escaping from an abusive ex.
Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives
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July 6, 2010 9:57 PM
Kevin - oh yeah, he did that too, a whole generation later. *cries into my old fashioned*
Posted by: bastion of sass
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July 6, 2010 10:01 PM
Happened to me on usenet too. And to almost every sane poster in my usual posting group who had been naive enough to ever have used their real names or email addresses (back before the kooks and krazies had access to computers and googlegroups introduced them to usenet.)
Employers of posters were contacted. The personal information of posters, their spouses/partners, and children were posted. Libelous accusations were made on usenet and websites not only about the group's posters but also their employers and families.
Ever since, I've been extremely reluctant to have my RL name posted anywhere. I'm not only afraid of the kooks harassing and abusing me, but also my family and employer as well.
Posted by: ursulamajor
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July 6, 2010 10:06 PM
As a widowed female WoW player, this is disturbing. I'm the only one with my name in the US, and a google search would find my address in 3 seconds flat. I don't write in the forums, but still...
Posted by: Cerberus, unnatural product of en-OMnomnom-ification
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July 6, 2010 10:12 PM
Another exhibit in the case for this being a dangerous and idiotic idea:
Stalking and WoW.
This post explores someone with an in-game grievance against a player for daring to be female tracking down another player through facebook back in 2005. The new changes would make it all too much easier for said trolls.
Posted by: bastion of sass
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July 6, 2010 10:13 PM
Or have a mailbomb sent to you.
Happened to a usenet friend of mine when he was still using his real, and very unusual, name, after he'd really pissed off someone in a usenet group by posting nothing worse than many of the comments on this blog.
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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July 6, 2010 10:17 PM
bastion of sass:
Yeah, back when I started on usenet, most everyone used their real names and e-addresses. That didn't last long.
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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July 6, 2010 10:17 PM
@Carlie:
*patpat* It's okay.
Posted by: Ben Goren
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July 6, 2010 10:33 PM
The Federalist Papers are all the reason I need to unreservedly support anonymity.
That writ…I let it all hang out. I realized some time ago that it was too late to try to hide or cover it up, and stopped worrying about it. Plus, I hope that the fact that I’m a raving anti-theism-ist and not afraid to let the world know the fact will help others do the same. It’s a lot easier to hide in plain sight in the middle of a crowd than to hide underground, after all…even if dragging the crowds out of the shadows puts you in front of the crowd, not in the middle of it….
(Actually, I blame it on the toxoplasmosis. See? Cats really are our overlords, and have our best interests in mind.)
Cheers,
b&
--
EAC Memographer
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
``All but God can prove this sentence true.''
Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline.
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July 6, 2010 10:43 PM
I know we're not supposed to attribute malice where incompetence may suffice, but if
might this not just be a way to shut down a ressource hog that doesn't generate enough revenue?
Posted by: Etruscan
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July 6, 2010 10:53 PM
Removing anonymity does not stop people from being stupid, it just stops people from voicing a minority opinion. And if you're in the majority, that's just dandy I'm sure.
Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/NSksF7covdkMhmYSv7X07qX0KSgozEz5eD2W#5ee71
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July 6, 2010 11:07 PM
@Teshi 120
I agree that not using my real name allows me to be more myself rather than my professional self. As a women in a male dominated field I spent years living under a microscope with everything being criticized - even when it had nothing to do with work.
I have also had a real life stalker. I lived for years with almost everything sent to my work address to minimize the possibility of my home address becoming known. Not a nice way to live.
I use the same online identity for most things and people who know me well recognize it immediately. Those who don't have to work hard to connect it to me.
Posted by: kjd1005
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July 6, 2010 11:10 PM
" I think it is sufficient accountability that one person, me, has access to limited tracing information"
I, for one, have ALWAYS welcomed the new squid overlords....
Posted by: Ohnhai
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July 6, 2010 11:11 PM
yeh... this is gonna lead to much wailing and gnashing of teeth. as proven twice over at RD.net, you change the nature of an established forum and you are in for one major bitch fight.
the first great RD.net schism was caused by the form managers asking people to moderate their language an to not post porn....
Posted by: seebachp
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July 6, 2010 11:19 PM
Heya, PZ! I remember you from vB boards back in the day.
Good coverage. I'm an ex-WoW player as of about an hour ago. It's not that I personally care that much who knows that I play WoW, or that I personally do much to hide my name. But I have transgendered friends who (used to, as of today) play WoW, and friends who have stalkers, and... well, I can see some pretty big downsides.
What they really don't seem to have thought through is that, by giving people the information they need to take stuff outside the forums, they lose whatever control they used to have. It used to be that if you posted something unpopular, a bunch of kids would respond with "lol u mad bro?" or "cool story bro", or maybe call you names. Blizzard didn't have the will or interest to do anything about it, but it happened on their machines and they could track it.
Now? Why would the kids post the crap on the forums when they can just look people up on any of the various people-search tools and harass them in person?
Posted by: jpkuhn
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July 6, 2010 11:23 PM
This is going to annoy me when I start playing Starcraft 2, because unfortunately I started playing WoW on my brother's account, and eventually I hijacked it. So it has become my primary account, and now when I begin to play Starcraft 2 on it, I'll be constantly called Matt rather than Justin.
People always say we look alike, so I guess I'll just have to assume his identity. Might get messy though... and I'm going to have to quit making jokes like the above since now people could take them too literally and the authorities would actually be able to follow up on them.
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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July 6, 2010 11:24 PM
Ohnhai, while what happened with the forum at RD.net was a clusterfuck with a lot of upset people, it's not remotely the same as forcing people to use their real identity.
Forums implode on a regular basis, it's part and parcel of forum life. As someone upthread noted, there are ways to better regulate the Blizzard forums, such as having one main identity linked to any alternate identities, which would make moderating much easier, etc. There's no good reason to insist on real world info. It will drive a lot of people away because of very real concerns, which could impact their lives in nasty ways.
Anyone who has had a net-stalker will tell you that it's not a light-weight issue and can become terrifying if that person gets your real name, address, phone number, etc.
Posted by: dillman.alan
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July 6, 2010 11:29 PM
Cerberus @135
Quite right. When I worked in a bar we had to sometimes sequester half the party involved in a fight or at least escort them out a different door.
Ironically I often had the whole party of a fighter leave(and both sides) so that there were no revenge fights. You never knew who knew who knew who and playing favourites - even unwillingly - could open up someone innocent to targeting. It was often best that the whole table leave. No foul, and come back tomorrow.
That experience of watching over my shoulder perhaps inures me to the risks of the net.
But so far I am only using my real name at Pharyngula. Perhaps its the coming out of an atheist, you know?
Posted by: bastion of sass
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July 6, 2010 11:42 PM
I have a RL name that's not entirely unique, but is different enough that it's only shared by about a dozen women in the U.S.
It's been several years since I've posted on usenet, but the libelous things written about me live on on the net.
Now, when I'm meeting potential new clients, landlords, employers, I always need to warn them, "If you google me, you'll find that some mentally ill person has written screeds accusing me of being I'm involved in a number of conspiracies to kidnap and torture young children. I assure you, I'm not." Sigh.
And I tend to panic because no matter how often I ask people not to post anything with my full RL name on the internet, I'll google myself and find it in PTA minutes, social group newsletters, lists of charitable donors.
But I wonder what the other women with my name think when they google themselves and see themselves named as the perpetrator of such terrible crimes.
Posted by: Moira Manion
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July 6, 2010 11:42 PM
Whoa whoa, wait a minnit! You mean, all these 13 years I've been on the Internet, I could have used a fake name?? And not taken responsibility for the millions of clever and monumentally dumb-ass stuff I've written??
Posted by: gooseofserenity
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July 7, 2010 12:25 AM
I'm really not happy with this decision. I don't use the forums on Warcraft, and the fact that they're using a 'real name' that I volunteered rather than was skimmed from my card details takes a little sting off it - but given my card details are under a totally differently gendered name (because my bank is made of shit and won't change it despite evidence and I don't have the spoons to go about dealing with moving to another) I really, really don't want to deal with the prospect of either outing myself or being misgendered EVERY time I post on an online forum. I go online to -escape- that nonsense.
Posted by: PS9
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July 7, 2010 12:28 AM
I'm of two minds when it comes to anonymity. On the one hand, when someone says something egregious (e.g. advocating murder) or hides behind it to harass others, that moron needs to be tracked down. Preventing the use of pseudonyms can be justified.
On the other hand, anonymity is the only way some people can feel safe enough to speak - whistleblowers, victims who feel ashamed, women in places they may be harassed, people with unpopular opinions or anyone who simply doesn't want his real name floating around for the world to see.
The reality is, if you want the second (good) type of anonymity, you're probably going to have to put up with the first (bad) type. It's like the old maxim of defense lawyers: "Better ten guilty men go free than a single innocent person go to prison."
Blizzard's forum, however, is private property, and they have a right to dictate on their board that no one can be anonymous. If they're doing it to prevent harassment, insults and threats, then that's fine. It's a game site. Why would anyone need to talk about anything other than the game itself?
If you don't like what someone says, you report them, call them a troll, and walk away. It's not difficult. This is not like the schoolyard where walking away means bullies can hit you from behind as you do, nor do you have to hear their taunts as you walk.
The only thing I would suggest to Blizzard is a "silence"/"blocking"/"harassment" button - if someone is bothering a person, the person can have the moron's posts blocked on the forum (similar to ad blocking or blocked users on Usenet). And if the moron's character approaches the person in the game, it can be reported...or better yet, the offending party's character becomes immaterial or loses his abilities. This is where a restraining order could really work and have teeth.
Posted by: Rachael
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July 7, 2010 12:40 AM
Beyond concerns regarding my future career (which I mentioned earlier) I also really don't like people outside of my guild knowing I'm female. 99% of the time when I pug a raid or 5 man and people want to get on vent, I don't talk. All it took were a couple of times where guys were complete jerks to me because I've got an innie instead of an outie, and it made me decide it wasn't worth it. I just lie and say I don't have a mic. So I really don't want to deal with the same bullshit on the Blizzard forums. All it took was daring to open my mouth about how creepy I think the "shake your bunnymaker" achievement is to learn what misogynist jerks can spring out of the woodwork.
And it's just as an unwelcoming environment for the gay community. Me and my co-GM have worked hard to stamp out all of the gay jokes (since the boys all know better than to make misogynist jokes when the officers are either women or feminist men) but it's been an uphill battle. I never realized that geeks were so invested in their own brand of machismo until I started trying to lead them in raids.
I didn't know you used to play WoW, PZ. That's cool. ^_^ Too bad you didn't have the time. Though who knows, if this goes downhill the way some of us fear, you were just beating the rush.
Posted by: Tenebras
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July 7, 2010 12:57 AM
Simple solution: Don't post on the WoW forums. Posting is not a requirement for playing the game, and they're pretty much a cesspool of stupidity anyway. I haven't even LOOKED at the forums in months, much less posted, I honestly couldn't care less. Although I would love to see the looks on the Blizzard staff's faces if their bustling forums suddenly went very quiet, because this is a very stupid decision.
Also @157: I never had a problem raid leading over vent as female (although I'm not terribly good at it, but the difficulties had nothing to do with gender.) However, knowing how to quite skillfully cuss someone out, as well as having the ability to kick people both from the raid and from the guild, might have something to do with it. Also, I never PUG, especially with raids. It just leads to high blood pressure.
Posted by: eumenidis
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July 7, 2010 1:17 AM
Gee, a lot male gamers are jerks; what an enormous shock. Seriously though, I observed a good 30 years ago that the fannish community seems to have an inordinate number of emotionally immature or disturbed individuals of both genders, & far too few willing to insist that even ordinary good manners be observed; it's a large part of why I rarely take part in any kind of fan forums.
Posted by: Aquaria
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July 7, 2010 1:20 AM
Anyone who has had a net-stalker will tell you that it's not a light-weight issue and can become terrifying if that person gets your real name, address, phone number, etc.
The most terrifying sensation in the world is picking up your phone, and hearing, "Hi, [old ID], this is [Psycho Stalker]. Bet you never thought you'd hear from me."
And it didn't get less creepy. Sickest moment: The fucker created a slew of sock-puppets and had them inundating me with news of his "death." He was so insane, he actually thought I'd 1) not see through the charade, or 2) think better of him, enough to 3) go to his "funeral," I suppose a convenient place for him to grab me.
I only wish I were kidding.
Never again. Never, ever again. Nobody will have enough data to track me down again, especially not my name. Fuck Blizzard for making available the kind of data that stalkers live for.
Posted by: Tenebras
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July 7, 2010 1:30 AM
eumenidis: May I recommend this article on "The Five Geek Social Fallacies"?
http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html
Posted by: subbie
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July 7, 2010 1:37 AM
The only person I can recall ever making much of a stink about forum board anonymity is one John A. Davison.
Suddenly I'm struck by a vision of JAD as a gnome. Anyone who plays WoW and wants a giggle, trying reading anything he's ever written, but imagine him saying it in a squeaky gnome voice.
Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official
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July 7, 2010 1:44 AM
Jeezis - I had no idea Real Life Stalkers were so common. Chalk it up to ignorance, but shit, that ain't right.
Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official
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July 7, 2010 1:46 AM
Subbie:
And be sure to say, "I love it so!"
Posted by: omnipasje
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July 7, 2010 1:58 AM
I have a big international wow-guild in Europe and we're having the discussion on our forum as well.
I must say that the fear of stalking is not the first thing that comes to mind for me, though i am female. Maybe it's more an american problem.
On the net i have 3 identities, my real name for social sites, my blog name and my wow name.
I like it that way.
I don't frequent the wow forums anymore anyway (only go to the technical forum when i encounter a problem and read up on the sollutions they suggest) so for me the whole real-id thing doesn't matter.
But i can imagine how it will for a lot of people.
Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawnFwkGaT8D4LcbDG9lz0Cs096aBcWjAHi8
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July 7, 2010 1:58 AM
Didn't have time to read the whole thread, but I just wanted to say a couple of things:
1) You don't have to post on the forums. Playing WoW or SC does not automatically reveal to the whole internet that you do so.
2) The forums are at the moment outrageously hostile and often degenerate into pointless flame wars. The current system allows people to post under any arbitrary name, making trolling and sock-puppetry trivial to achieve and without consequence. This is a plan to try and solve that. I guess Blizzard feels this goal justifies the (admittedly radical) means of forcing people to post using their real names, and it considers the the cost of loss of constructive posts because some people are scared about revealing their personal information is outweighed by the benefit of an improved atmosphere, and just a whole lot fewer flame wars.
There's more, but I really am pressed for time.
Sorry for the googlemess.
Posted by: Morse
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July 7, 2010 2:01 AM
I'm not sure what Blizzard is hoping to achieve with their RealID system, but I can't imagine anything good is going to come of it. Don't they understand that the appeal of their games is that by in real life you might be Joe Smith, basement dwelling burger flipper, but in WoW, you are the mighty warrior Lokomala, renowned for your pvp videos and your sagacious advice on the best Prot spec gear. The whole appeal is that those two personas can be completely divorced if you so choose.
Also, I think if this move has any effect on the forum quality, it's going to be a negative one. The people most likely to stick around are those who are too arrogant or idiotic to care about losing their anonymity. One thing that will surely get worse is ad hominem attacks. In the early days, ad hominems were usually restricted to your character level. Since the armory came out, you can now be dissed for not having the proper gear, build, or achievements. Still, your revealed information is restricted to your game activities, and the info can help spot frauds. Now though, with the RealID, attackers have the full power of Google and Facebook at their disposal.
I actually don't remember that much true trolling on the forums when I used to play. Although, the game does support a ridiculous amount of tribalization, given that you can at any moment be opposed to anyone who is not part of your class, race, spec, server, or guild. The real reason the forums were a cesspit, though, was the hideous amount of whining. I don't think RealID will fix that problem at all; many people will be just as happy to post under their real names why they think class X desperately needs buffs and class Y is ridiculously easy-mode and that the newest patch is the second coming/a war crime.
Ultimately though, I think that they're going to scrap these plans given the massive backlash they're currently receiving. If they do go through with it, 4chan will eat their lunch in the first week, the forums will become a useless ghost town, and third party fan sites will pick up the slack.
Actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but does Blizzard in any way try to verify the name you provide? As far as I understand it, they don't actually compare it to the CC, and they will happily let you call yourself Biggus Dickus(stop laughing!), Mark Twain, John Smith, or any other plausible pseudonym(okay, bad examples).
Sincerely,
Sam Morse
Posted by: BRT
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July 7, 2010 2:14 AM
I have been reading various opinions about this topic and I see a lot of "well just don't post on the WoW forums, problem solved"
But from what I have seen the outrage over this decision isn't so much about the attaching people's real names to forums posts (all though it is still an incredibly stupid thing to do on Blizzard's part for numerous reasons that have already been stated)but the general direction Vivendi/Activison is taking Blizzard in, which started with the requirement for Battle.net accounts, then the realid feature and now this.
Basically the impression I get is Blizzard's parent companies are trying to turn it into some sort of social networking thing in order to compete with facebook and other similar sites. There are several articles and interviews with Activison's Ceo where he states they are in competition with facebook and its gaming applications. I feel like they ultimately want it so no matter what Vivendi game your playing it announces it to your entire "social network" with the idea being your friends will see you playing it and hopefully they will then purchase it themselves.
I really don't think this decision has much at all do with forum moderating, as there are several better ways to do that which do not involve real life information being used, and more to do with implementing this new business model.
Another site that has good discussion going on about this issue if anyone is interested is elitist jerks, a pretty well known WoW related forums that is very heavily moderated to keep discussion mature/helpful/relevant http://tinyurl.com/27c2an4
Posted by: holydust
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July 7, 2010 2:27 AM
I will definitely be quitting, as the RealID system implemented on the forums will make it way too easy to stalk me. They're making it so that anyone who doesn't want to be found will absolutely not be able to use the forums for fear of being outed as a girl, a celebrity, a different age, or whatever else.
Also, WoW has tons of underage players. Now their full internet information will be accessible if they post on the forums. Not good. That 12 year old punk kid piss you off trolling you in Trade Chat? Find out where he lives and beat him up. If he's ever posted on the forums and has elected to include his character name too, you're good to go.
Posted by: Donald
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July 7, 2010 2:39 AM
"And yeah, my first thought was all those kids who got subscriptions under their parents' names"
When I started playing wow I was still a kid. Obviously the account was made with my parents card and I put it in my mothers name, to keep the information consistent. I never did bother to change the name on the account after all these years because blizzard makes it horribly inconvenient to do so. You can't just log onto the battle.net website and change the name on your account.
As far as I know (and I haven't checked in a good long time), in order to change the account name (or even to recover a hacked account) I'd have to fax them identifying documents such as my drivers license. Rather inconvenient, and until now it didn't really matter. I don't post on their forums very often, however, so it probably still doesn't matter to me. Aside from a few friends chuckling when they see "Veronica XXXXX has come online."
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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July 7, 2010 2:54 AM
Aquaria:
Yeah, that's a bad fucking moment. It's why I never just "pick up the phone", but I wait until the answering machine kicks in as well as checking the caller ID.
Posted by: Glenn G
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July 7, 2010 3:10 AM
I cancelled my account with them. I no longer trust them with my personal information.
Bobby Kotick is destroying gaming.
Posted by: jack.rawlinson
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July 7, 2010 3:47 AM
I started using the web in 1994 and after observing the interactions on message boards, IRL etc for a while I made a conscious decision to always use my real name when posting, anywhere. It struck me very forcibly that there's a certain cowardice involved in not being willing to identify yourself when making declarations or expressing opinions - or, indeed, mocking or abusing someone. I wanted no part of that; I'm willing to stand by everything I post and that means I'm willing to say it using my own name.
I understand that some people live in situations where to identify themselves might cause problems in their lives, but that does not apply to me so I see no reason for anonymity.
Posted by: Numad
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July 7, 2010 3:49 AM
Numad is my real name.
Like Cher.
Posted by: tahotai
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July 7, 2010 4:20 AM
The thread on the US forums has reached 17,500 posts, about 99% of them opposed to the idea.
Activision stock has gone down after the announcement.
In a good world, Blizzard wakes up tomorrow and calls the whole thing off.
Posted by: Calaban
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July 7, 2010 4:27 AM
I am a reader here for a while and a WOW player for several years now.
Its not about you, me or Bliz telling people that they should not care. Many people do care. Some no doubt are very highly motivated to care. In 10-12 M subscribers I am sure there are more that a few people laying low from an abusive spouse - just as an example. But really - no one should have to "justify" to anyone else why they don't want their personal information splashed around. It is their personal information.
And I don't believe it will have much effect on the forum signal to noise ratio - the @ssHats don't care.
Myself - I wont be posting to the official forums.
Posted by: Personal SinR
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July 7, 2010 4:29 AM
HOLY CRAP. I'm seeing way too much paranoia. From what I've gathered, this only affects the website's forums. This has no effect to the in-game play.
If for some reason you are a sadistic bastard who felt the need to wade through the murk and mire of bad opinions and trolls on the forums, you deserve the change. You will EARN your reputation now on.
Unless in my alcohol induced state I've missed something, a lot of you are over reacting. I was a pretty hardcore player for a bit, and the forums were the least of my worries. Let's bring this back into context huh?
Posted by: Numad
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July 7, 2010 4:41 AM
I have to add that I hardly appreciate the preening comments from contributors who happen to have chosen nicks which don't appear pseudonymous (but which really could be,) essentially taxing me and countless others of cowardice for no good reason at all.
How do they determine what "consequences" I should face for airing my opinion on the internet?
Posted by: dinosaurus
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July 7, 2010 5:00 AM
Bah, while I do not play WoW anymore due to lack of time and cash, I had hoped to resume playing it in two or so years. Obviously, I don't have to spend any time on the forums, but it would be nice to be able to post there whenever there are any important official discussions, or even just anything fun.
I am the only person on the entire planet with my name, which is made even worse by the fact that my last name belongs to ridiculously well documented clan, to the point where the full family tree starting from over 800 years ago (including my name) has been published as a book. Nightmare fuel.
I am strange and different, and learned the importance of anonymity or at least pseudo-anonymity even before the age of 10. Sometimes the only way to be able to ask honest questions or say true things is in hiding. I even have a official pseudonym which is tied to my IRL name, for less secure semi-anonymity, on top of my regularly changing forum-dependent psedonyms, for a bit more solid anonymity. I learned that there is no true anonymity online either within the first year of being online almost two decades ago, thanks to a friendly hacker.
I am one of those unfortunate people who don't use the internet to pretend to be different people. I use the internet to be myself more, at a safer space. People are more likely to take your messages at face value based on the content of your communication, instead of on who they think you are supposed to be. Especially the less known and neutral your pseudonym is.
The internet is a great place to learn how to communicate efficiently, because if you fuck up, you will be told and you are able to learn, without it becoming a mistake that will injure and hurt you for the rest of your life (which is the kind of crap I got most of the first two decades of my life IRL) like some infernal pyrrhic experience. If it weren't for the internet and its haven-like qualities, I probably would have been dead a long time ago.
And this is why I am planning to change my IRL name to something not only gender neutral, but almost as plain and common as John Smith. Can't single me out as much any more, fuckers! AHAHAHAHAHAHH! *coughhackcough* Sorry about that.
(Hmm... The latest few posts from me were probably TMI. Oh well, time to change pseudonym and writing style again. Not that it is supposed to make me impossible to trace, just a great deal more of an effort. And I have never minded blog owners being able to see all the different parts of me, as the parts are not to protect myself against the owner or the regulars, but casual spying eyes. After all, I consider myself to be my values and actions, not my style of presentation or name, so I at least consider the different parts of myself shown consistent with who I am.)
Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe
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July 7, 2010 5:16 AM
I seriously fucking hate it when people spout bullshit like this. Especially in a thread in which a lot of people already commented on the troubles with stalkers, being outed against their will, etc. It takes a lot of privilege to make the above claim, as well as total cluelessness about the social lives of a good proportion of the net generation who spend more time on the net, and have more friends on the net than in meatspace.Because I'm willing to bet that every person who ever made a statement like this has also, at some point in their lives, had conversations with their buddies that they wouldn't want their parents, (future, potential) children and (future, potential) employers to know about. But for some reason, net-kids aren't allowed to create that sort of privacy for themselves?
Asshole
Posted by: eMel
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July 7, 2010 5:25 AM
A number of celebrities play WoW as well and I doubt they will appreciate being uncovered only to be hounded.
Posted by: Utakata
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July 7, 2010 5:30 AM
Might as well chime in here...
First, I never knew that PZ had a toon on Proudmore....nor even played WoW. There's an octopus boss in the next expansion, incase your interested. But I regret to say that I can't recommend you purchase it, in reguards to this issue you've brought up...unless Blizz outright changes their policy.
So you know...I've been playing the game for five years now under this name, since it's my main. Those who know me ingame usually recognize me as the pink, pig-tailed Gnome Mage of temperamental dispostions (feel free to look up this name on The Armory). And I was certainly looking forward to Cataclysm to start my army of Goblins to augment my army of Gnomes.
Yesterday that ambition came to an end with the news of the expanded Real ID as Forum signatures. As well as the news that Real ID is now implemented in the background creating unsuspecting privacey issues with some *addons. In addition, my friend also pointed this is a policy resulted from a contract Blizz/Activison made with Facebook back in **May of this year...so there looks like there's no going back on this.
*Source: http://www.wow.com/2010/07/06/security-flaw-allows-addons-to-expose-full-real-life-names-witho/
**Source: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gamehunters/post/2010/05/blizzard-and-facebooks-friendly-social-networking-deal-launches-with-starcraft-ii-/1
Now as a result of this, I planning to leave WoW and cancelling my subscription as much as I dont want to. But my privacy...and everyone elses' privacy is far more important and will be wholey affected by this and probably in horrible ways. I cannot support this both ethically and morally. And to put it bluntly, anonymity is important; it keeps the nutters from stalking us and invading our privacy...for many of us who chose to remain private. Blizz has blatantly disregarded this of their customers.
Anyways...this getting tl;dr. Here's well pointed piece from Spinksville, a popular female WoW and gaming blogger who nails down quite well as to why upset about all of this:
http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/in-which-blizzard-drinks-the-realid-coolaid/
Enjoy.
And Personal SinR @ 177, stop being an apologist asswipe. You know full fucking well from the reason given by Blues in regards to implementing this, the Trade Channel and other ingame public channels will most likely be on their Real ID hit list.
As for the claim, "This has no effect to the in-game play." Type this into your chatline when your next on:
/script for i=1,100 do if BNIsSelf(i)then BNSendWhisper(i,"From me");break end end
...be warned, you may want to change your shorts after Copy and Pasting that. /cheers
Posted by: SEF
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July 7, 2010 5:39 AM
I think it will make more of a difference to who posts at all rather than to their tone when posting.
When I first went online, I used to use the standard version of my "full" name even on a public forum. I certainly didn't post any differently in terms of style or content. However, at the first sign of stalkers appearing, I and some others reverted to using coded names or nicknames.
Someone, on a particular forum, who originally mocked us for "hiding" that way later apologised for having done so when a stalker (from that forum) turned up at their own home. Even though, fotunately, that one turned out not to be particularly dangerous, just creepy. It was enough for them to see our point.
Where I live(d), being involved in science (on the pro side) got you and your entire family fire-bombed - as happened to the people just down the road from me. Females have the obvious concern about rapists (not exclusively but somewhat more so than males). Homosexuals are also routinely targeted for violence in many places. And, of course, being an atheist can be fatal in an officially sanctioned way in many theocratic countries.
Making it harder for the casual nutters to seek out people they hate is enough to justify internet anonymity. No-one can stop the serious investigators (eg in government) from finding people they want; but I suspect those methodical types are slightly less likely to act on impulse from an internet conversation.
Posted by: SEF
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July 7, 2010 5:47 AM
PS "reverted" is only in the sense that, way back in the early days of computer connectivity (before the internet as you lot know it), logins used to be very short sequences of letters and numbers assigned to people and it was up to the people themselves to know and remember who was represented by which code when communicating online.
Posted by: Louis
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July 7, 2010 5:53 AM
1) Louis is my real first name. I only post under the name Louis, although ~15 years ago I used another name, but generally dislike anonymity/pseudonyms (personal preference, not judgement on others).
2) I am male and generally privileged in many senses of that word. This won't just affect females and the less obviously privileged (in several senses of that word) although, sad to say, they will be the people most affected by this change. Bullying/cyber stalking/harrassment is not just used against those without obvious privilege (in several senses of that word), although of course it very often is. No, obviously, this does not make things globally equal for all, please don't leap for that straw man. I'm well aware some people have it far worse than others.
3) I no longer use my surname and first name online because several years ago I was cyber stalked and had my identity briefly stolen (relatively unique surnames are fun aren't they?). I managed to stave off the annoyance that was ID theft eventually, but it involved months of real life effort I have no wish to repeat. For those that think this wasn't serious, one tiny part of what I did was to move banks and move house.
4) PZ/board owners and admins wherever I post can find out who I am/already know who I am IRL because we have met anyway. That's good enough for me. My "account name" (i.e. my real first name) is good enough IMO.
5) Blizzard could link account names to forum names and have much the same desired effect (not completely of course, but good enough, and maintains client anonymity). I have no idea if this is done already or not, a WoW player will have to tell me. Heavy policing of forum activity under account names, with forum bans for violations, is a few months efforts by the billion dollar company Blizzard's customer service/forum folk. Suck it up Blizzard and do the hard work of detrolling.
Louis
Posted by: Dania
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July 7, 2010 6:07 AM
Exactly.
The other day I was listening to some people on tv commenting a case of a girl who was raped by an internet stalker. One woman was proposing that if everyone was forced to use their real ID on the net it would be easier to identify these criminals. I have no idea how she thinks that's supposed to work, but whatever the mechanism the stalkers would probably find a way to get around it. I bet they would love it, their "job" would become much easier and the victims more vulnerable.
And then there's the privilege factor that was already discussed. Minorities would probably stop using the net altogether to avoid being persecuted.
It's just a terrible idea.
Posted by: Ckimmy
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July 7, 2010 6:38 AM
I have read this blog for over a year - this is my first post!
I left WoW as a female gamer straight up because of all the jerks and young people there that harass anything resembling the opposite sex. Of course I could have made a male avatar but at the end of the day I would rather be able to log to my game of choice and tell people about my day without worrying about being a target. I finally moved to older games like Everquest and Shards of Dalaya where the playerbase is a bit more mature and female friendly.
This change is simply insane for any female WoW gamer actually trying to hide her gender. It gives her a choice between being outed and getting tech support or participating in content discussions.
Posted by: Wrath Panda
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July 7, 2010 6:39 AM
As a long time player, I was less than impressed with this announcement. However it seems that some of the complaints may have been noticed. Taking my regular trawl through mmo-champion, this was all over the front page, including a swathe of "blue" posts (posts from game developers/moderators/blizzard staff for the uninitiated. I have copy/pasta'd the final one, which I think is the most significant.
Bolded text for emphasis. Guess they aren't as mindless about the whole thing as originally thought.
Posted by: SEF
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July 7, 2010 6:50 AM
Blizzard (followed quite possibly by the rest of the internet) will become the preserve of sexist (misogynistic), homophobic, racist (insofar as real names are culturally identifiable), ageist (including paedophilic), rabidly religious(?), anti-science, "white"* male thugs (many of them already unemployable by anyone of high standards and hence not even worried about any potential impact on their jobs). No-one else will be safe online (from online harassment or real world attacks) - to varying degrees in various physical locations. Some of the decent "white" males may also largely abandon the afflicted areas of the virtual world because there will be hardly anyone worthwhile (of differing demographic and viewpoint) left to talk to once the dregs of society have taken over.
* There may be enough of the internet based in some non-western countries for there to be a locally equivalent version of "white".
Posted by: Bernard Bumner
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July 7, 2010 6:53 AM
Looking at it pragmatically, being able to choose to use a pseudonym does help to protect potentially vulnerable posters, and allow them to avoid many kinds of unwanted attention. (I might also add that, in the case of a roleplaying forum, it allows people to exist in-character only, which some people will like. i.e., the can choose to be differently gendered, or inhabit a different racial type entirely and consistently.)
On the other hand, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that a so-called choice may be forced upon people, simply because we haven't become sufficiently sophisticated in preventing harassment and misuse of personal information.
It almost seems like Muslim women making a "choice" to wear a burqa. It is very nearly an illusion of choice; you can choose to be merely oppressed, or else violently oppressed.
The system is still the problem; people should be able to use their real names (or not) without fear of violence, oppression, or mistreatment.
Posted by: Bernard Bumner
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July 7, 2010 6:59 AM
How long will they continue supporting the old forums for WoW? Why should consistently pseudonymous post-ers be excluded from the new Starcraft II forum?
Really, it's Hobson's choice, isn't it?
Posted by: SEF
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July 7, 2010 7:17 AM
@ #190:
The trouble is that no-one is putting in credible
systems for preventing harassment - either in the virtual online world or the real physical world (in many places it's quite the reverse!). Until such time as it's believable that forum moderators (and police forces) will actually stamp on the scum (be they sexist, racist, homophobic, religious or whatever) rather than enabling them and indiscriminately or even selectively stamping on the innocents, the whistle-blowers, the truth-tellers etc instead, then the-burqa-of-pseudo-anonymity is the only defence available to those who are on the side of good.
It's not really simply about minorities (women are hardly that!). It's about those with the inclination, the motive, the opportunity to tell lies and commit violence (and get away with it) vs those who tend not to do such things at all.
That's because droids don't rip your arms out of your shoulders when they lose. Wookies have been known to do that.
Atheists (in their role as atheists, rather than as political reformers or soldiers etc) don't tend to kill theists. Theists do tend to kill atheists (and rival theists). Women don't attack and harass men nearly as much as men attack and harass women (or even attack other men!). Scientists don't tend to kill anti-science people. Whereas the other way round happens a lot (including medics who merely use science).
I agree that it's not a good thing that people should need the-burqa-of-pseudo-anonymity, but what are they being offered as a realistic alternative right now? And will removing all burqas somehow magically make the evil and stupid people (including the ones running and moderating forums) less evil and stupid?
Posted by: SEF
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July 7, 2010 7:29 AM
Slightly off-topic:
It's not as though the real world burqa even works - ie to protect women from abuse. Burqa-wearing women are still abused, discriminated against, raped, murdered etc for all the usual "reasons". It's merely that non-burqa-wearing women get assaulted in advance for an extra "reason". It's an additional instrument of abuse and not a defence.
At least the-burqa-of-pseudo-anonymity online does provide a genuine, if flimsy, protection from all kinds of harassment (in both the virtual and the real world). I don't have a viable alternative to propose which would make its removal justifiable.
Posted by: Bernard Bumner
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July 7, 2010 7:33 AM
@SEF
Which is one of the reasons why people are so incredibly vulnerable once this kind of fire-fighting measure fails - once their anonimty fails, so little is done to protect people.
As I say, I pragmatically accept that. But it is a shame, and particularly it is a shame because I'm not sure that much is being done to address the real problem.
Absolutely not. And it should always be a (real) choice, anyway.
In this case, Blizzard is taking a presumably well-intentioned but very idealistic approach to the problem, and I wonder what their contingency plan is once it fails?
I'm not sure that Blizzard is capable of changing even its own littel corner of the world alone. At the moment, people are highly exposed by the internet, simply because so much of their information is effectively networked on different sites whilst policing and protection are piecemeal.
Posted by: PZ Myers
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July 7, 2010 7:35 AM
Um, that blizzard post is criminally misleading. It's not opt-in to use your real name; it's opt-in to post at all.
Posted by: jay.sweet
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July 7, 2010 7:58 AM
If they really think that puncturing anonymity will stop trolling, I have two words for them: Dennis Markuze.
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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July 7, 2010 8:00 AM
I did a search for my name using a Web site someone posted on the WoW.com website's topic on this (spokeo.com.)
It found me - I would have to say what state I live in to find me precisely, but even so, it found me, it found my phone number, it found my street address, it has a frickin' Google street view of my house.
Even if it wasn't my name or address, it doesn't matter much - the fact remains that someone else named Kevin Lastname could be stalked/hurt. Blizzard doesn't want that on their hands.
Posted by: Wrath Panda
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July 7, 2010 8:03 AM
Hmm, I've just re-read the post and, yes it does appear that way PZ. Serves me right for posting instead of working...
I stopped posting on the offal forums long ago, so it's a minimal impact on me but still, it's a pretty foolish thing to try to implement.
I have had a thought though; my character name is unique there is only me in Europe and no-one with the name in the US. Google "Mithalder" and you'll get some of my old posts. If I started posting under my realID, technically I'd be harder to find :D
Posted by: Louis
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July 7, 2010 8:18 AM
@ Jay.sweet #196,
Oh absolutely. Some trolling will be discouraged by the lack of anonymity but far from all. One doesn't have to sink to the depths of Mabus to find examples either. Playground bullies exist in meatspace where their identities are not only known but everything about them is known to the authorities/victims. Some people simply won't care, or will be sufficiently clueless/young and naive about being associated with their behaviour online.
I'll make a controversial point too. The trolls etc deserve some protection with anonymity too. What I mean by this, and it is strictly limited to this stated meaning, is that a young person (male or female or whatever intersex/combination thereof) might engage in bad actions online that are then traceably tied to their name. Obviously, and it should go without saying, that there is a spectrum of bad behaviour and people are free to draw the line of tolerance where they wish. However I find the tying of what is sometimes likely to be youthful indiscretion (as opposed to meaningful nastiness) to the adult years after the fact to be both illogical and unfair. I say that as somneone who has been the victim, not the perpetrator, of these sorts of things.
The adult is not always the linear, deterministic outgrowth of the child. I certainly don't share the views of my parents (for example) that I unquestioningly accepted aged 7, or 13, or whatever. People should be given the opportunity to learn, recognise their errors/misdeeds, and put them behind them. That's the very nature of rehabilitation and it should not be ignored in the very correct and righteous cacophany about how crap this policy is to the victims. Acknowledging this in no way detracts from the acknowledgement that the victims, and specifically certain vulnerable subsets of the victims have a far crappier time of it than the perpetrators. To understand one is to understand the other.
I'm not overemphasising (or even intending to) this ascpect of the issue at the expense of more important aspects, I'm merely adding it to the mixing pot of why this is a crap policy from Blizzard.
Louis
Posted by: broboxley OT
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July 7, 2010 8:23 AM
@Tenebras #161 thanks for the link, it appears I am not a geek after all
Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe
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July 7, 2010 8:35 AM
i'm mildly thrilled that i don't exist on that page. OTOH, everybody here knows approximately where i live anyway....Posted by: cafink
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July 7, 2010 9:15 AM
I don't have any interest in Blizzard's message boards specifically, but I really like the idea of making real names mandatory. I, for one, am willing to stand behind the things I say (here on Pharyngula and elsewhere). I have no interest in hiding behind an anonymous nickname and find it kind of annoying when others do.
There's a message board I've frequented for over ten years, which requires users to sign up using their real name, and it is by far the friendliest, most welcoming message board I've ever encountered. It's far more enjoyable to read and post there than any other message board or forum I've encountered.
Posted by: Bernard Bumner
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July 7, 2010 9:20 AM
How large is the community? How visible is it to potential Trolls, thugs, and stalkers?
Posted by: toth
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July 7, 2010 9:37 AM
Well, at least I'm safe--I'm only playing Diablo II, no subscription required. No one will know that Quentin B. Habberdasher is in favor of the recent hammerdin nerf!
Posted by: cafink
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July 7, 2010 9:45 AM
It's The Home Theater Forum (hometheaterforum.com). I doubt it's as busy as Blizzard's forum, but it's hardly a barren wasteland. I don't know how many registered users it has, but it's reporting almost 1,000 as being online right now. It has dozens of individual forums; many of them are pretty empty, but a half-dozen or so big ones see hundreds of posts every day.
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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July 7, 2010 10:23 AM
@Jadehawk, OM:
I'm thankful my brother isn't on that site, either. My sister and father are - my mother isn't, though.
Posted by: Marek14
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July 7, 2010 11:05 AM
I have the best of both worlds... I post under my real name, but it's so unusual that everyone would automatically assume it's a nick :)
Even so, I have my activities where I have a different online identity. And I think I have right to that.
Posted by: SEF
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July 7, 2010 11:13 AM
@ cafink #202 + #205:
From a very quick sampling (recent posts/activity, who's online) it looks very male dominated (possibly "white" ones) and the displayed names are not all real ones anyway, let alone full names. Some are clearly pseudonyms - unless you are suggesting there are parents who would call their child "disease"!
So it doesn't look to be a valid example of real name enforcement working at all.
Posted by: Personal SinR
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July 7, 2010 11:14 AM
Utakata @ 182
Laughable. Yes, anyone with a different opinion is an apologist. You're a prime example of an over reaction. You decide to quit the game (in which you can hide your identity) because of the FORUMS!? Man, the forums were terrible long ago, and why anyone should have any value in them is beyond me...
Btw, you may want to holster your paranoia about in game chat exposing realIDs until you actually catch any evidence of that happening. Otherwise you're just spreading the crazy.
Posted by: Bernard Bumner
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July 7, 2010 11:20 AM
Blizzard's forums are on an entirely different scale. Also, the social element of gaming and the nature of interactions simply increase the vulnerability of users.
Posted by: cafink
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July 7, 2010 11:24 AM
@SEF #208:
Yes, hometheaterforum.com is very male dominated...exactly like Blizzard's forums. As I mentioned before, it also has a rule that users much include their real name in their profile, but it doesn't necessarily have to be their log-in username. Yes, someone appears to have registered the username "disease" without entering their real name, but they also have yet to make a single post. Moderators ask people who post without their real name to add it to their profile, and I know of several instances of it happening in the past.
Posted by: SEF
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July 7, 2010 11:45 AM
With fake names, how can you presume to know that for certain?! The females and other standardly victimised sub-groups might be hiding in plain sight.
Posted by: cafink
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July 7, 2010 11:51 AM
Because Blizzard's forums are dedicated to video games, an extremely male-dominated hobby.
Posted by: Utakata
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July 7, 2010 11:58 AM
I have and others have already presented you sufficient evidence of this being problematic, Personal SinR @ 209. Denialist much?
Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
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July 7, 2010 12:52 PM
Nice circular logic, cafink.
It's so brave of you boys who don't have to worry about harrassment and stalking to offer your real names.
Posted by: cafink
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July 7, 2010 12:58 PM
"The one forum I know of that uses real names is friendly and cordial" is circular logic?
Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
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July 7, 2010 1:10 PM
"They must be men, because it's a male dominated forum, and the fact that they're men means it's a male dominated forum"
Referring to Blizzard forums here.
Posted by: cafink
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July 7, 2010 2:19 PM
Where did I say anything like that? I merely claimed that Blizzard's forums are likely to be male-dominated, because they are dedicated to a hobby that is itself heavily male-dominated.
Posted by: Dark Matter
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July 7, 2010 2:44 PM
Privitized trial balloon to see how
netziens would respond to a non-anonymous
internet proposal?
Posted by: eMel
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July 7, 2010 3:11 PM
Makes me glad I switched from WoW to EVE Online recently.
Posted by: CW
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July 7, 2010 3:18 PM
@205
Privilege is not always such a tangible thing. Because you do not see it, doesn't mean that people don't screen themselves out of the forum, or feel unwelcome without registering their displeasure.Now, I'll be willing to accept that it's possible that you've got a good subculture there, independent of gender, class, and self-maintaining. The forum that I ran had those subforums where we didn't have to worry about that as much.
These subforums also didn't get much traffic, and were easier to maintain through social sanctions. 1000 users online at a single time is not much at all for a larger forum, larger scale communities have bigger issues maintaining themselves, and their standards.
Posted by: Rachael
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July 7, 2010 4:29 PM
I've seen a couple people now point to the forums being "optional." I can't really agree with that for a couple of reasons:
1) We've been heavily encouraged to utilize the tech support forums, and often times the response times are better there than if you try phone or e-mail tech support. As far as I know, they're not excluding this RealID crap from the tech support forums.
2) We're paying for the access to the forums as surely as we're paying for the access to the game and its features. Our use of the forums is something that specifically comes with our WoW accounts. I can't even imagine how people would shit themselves if someone tried to pull this sort of thing with another game feature, like the Armory or the auction house. But you know technically, you don't *have to* use those either.
My attention was recently drawn to this article: Blizzard and Facebook's friendly social networking deal launches with 'StarCraft II'. I'm starting to feel like Facebook is my own personal creepy stalker. I delete my account there because I don't like the privacy policies, and suddenly it's trying to follow me into my game.
If this sort of interface works out the way it's being described in the article, I can't even imagine how things will be for actual facebook users. You know all those people that you just friended to be polite? They're going to follow you into WoW. And they're all going to ask for you to run their lowbie through Wailing Caverns because you're at max level and obviously have nothing better to do with your time.
@158: I'm actually the RL for my guild's "hard mode" 10 man raid. I don't have a problem being authoritative and downright nasty when I need to. But those are also people who I trust, who trust in my authority and respect me. I don't like every social interaction with people to feel like an uphill struggle. It's fatiguing, and it's not something I want to be doing in my spare time. I don't pug much these days, but every now and then it is nice to go have some fun on an alt.
Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives
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July 7, 2010 5:03 PM
Says the person whose name is "cafink"????
Posted by: cafink
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July 7, 2010 5:14 PM
"cafink" is the username for my Google account; it's based on my real name, Carl Fink. I log in here on Pharyngula via my Google account, and I've been trying to figure out if there's a way to have it display my actual name instead of my username like a lot of other users (but I don't know if any of them use a Google account). In any event, I don't have anything to hide, like I said in the first place; here's all the info connected with said account: http://www.google.com/profiles/cafink.
Posted by: CW
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July 7, 2010 5:39 PM
"In any event, I don't have anything to hide"
Why should we care about your disinterest and annoyance with others who feel the need to protect their privacy?
You have no right to bitch in the face of any of the tangible reasons presented for why a person does not wish to present their full name.
Anyone who trusts the whole of the internet implicitly is a fool, even if they never make waves themselves.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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July 7, 2010 6:24 PM
At the Redhead household, no call, unless expected, is picked up without looking at the caller ID. Saves having to politely (Redhead), or not so politely (Nerd), hang-up on people.Posted by: Ichthyic
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July 7, 2010 6:28 PM
I should have the balls to face them unmasked.
I have two words for you:
David.
Mabus.
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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July 7, 2010 6:40 PM
cafink:
That's just fucking dandy, too. For you. The world doesn't revolve around you, and your experiences are your experiences which have zero relation to what others go through. So, you can stuff your annoyance up your ass, as that seems to be the quickest route to your brain.
I was net-stalked (which went to real life stalked) back in my usenet days, and that was well over a decade ago. I quit using my real name and e-address at that time. I'm female and I'm a member of the LGBT community. I've been beaten up for coming out of a gay bar. The realities I face are obviously different from what you face.
What the fuck makes you think I'm not willing to stand behind what I say? Fuck you and the high horse you're riding on. I do stand behind what I say. I'm known as Caine at various places on the net, I'm a moderator under that name, I've had the same name for 15 years on the net. I don't give a shit if you want to advertise your real name, address and phone number all over the net, do as you like. Do not tell me or anyone else that refusing to do so is annoying, dishonest or cowardly.
Posted by: cafink
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July 7, 2010 7:05 PM
@CW #225:
I never said you should care about what I think of using real names on Internet forums. But you're reading comments on a blog post about exactly that subject, so I presume you do care about what others think of the subject.
@Caine #228:
Sorry for having different experiences than you and expressing my thoughts on those experiences. I respect that not everyone goes through the same things and I just thought I'd share my thoughts on the subject since, y'know, that's the point of having comments on the blog, right? Sorry if my annoyance with Internet nicknames offends you, but I think your name-calling is immature and uncalled for. I guess I've just been spoiled by message boards where users are banned for saying things like "Fuck you and the high horse you're riding on."
Posted by: CW
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July 7, 2010 7:17 PM
This isn't a simple opinion poll, though. You're not offering anything new to the argument other than "I'm a boring middle-classed white dude with a not too uncommon name that never says anything controversial and works in a safe, caring environment and have nothing to worry about therefore everyone should feel the same."We *know* that many people won't have to worry about this. People get angry with this because you expect all others to cater to you.
Posted by: Ichthyic
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July 7, 2010 7:26 PM
Sorry if my annoyance with Internet nicknames offends you
I don't believe you.
you are neither apologetic, nor concerned with your offense, nor thoughtful about others.
your opinion matters not one whit.
Posted by: cafink
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July 7, 2010 8:02 PM
@CW #230:
I thought my experience with an reasonably-sized (albeit smaller than Blizzard, as I've already conceded) message board that has had a "real name" policy in place for over a decade was relevant and potentially interesting to others. Also, I only "never say anything controversial" if "there is no God," a sentiment I've often expressed, is not controversial. It seems like a perfectly defensible sentiment to me, but there certainly are a lot of obsessive Internet types who feel differently.
@Ichthyic #231:
You're quite mistaken. I am upset that I've apparently offended someone with my comments, because all I really wanted to say was that I'd participated in message boards that enforced a "real name" policy and quite enjoyed the experience. I've come to recognize that my experience might not extend to every single person on the Internet, and I like to think I'm open to arguments to that effect, but I hardly know how to respond when the rebuttal includes gems like "you can stuff your annoyance up your ass, as that seems to be the quickest route to your brain."
I absolutely see where Caine is coming from and sympathize with her, in spite of the fact that she seems to want to make it as hard as possible for me to do so. I think I'm beginning to understand why some folks take the "new atheists" to task for being too aggressive, as Caine is making it difficult for me to admit that she has a point, even though she really does seem to, and we're only talking about a silly subject like computer games, not a serious one like religion.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
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July 7, 2010 8:52 PM
Why?
Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives
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July 7, 2010 8:56 PM
There's where the frustration comes from, right there. This discussion is NOT about computer games. It doesn't matter what the topic of the forum in question is. The discussion is whether or not it's reasonable and not an undue burden to force people to use their real names on the internet, with a secondary topic of whether or not doing so actually leads to the results that are supposedly the goal.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
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July 7, 2010 9:15 PM
On the contrary, barely anyone here has talked about computer games. We are talking about the very real harm that can and does occur from posting in online forums with your real name.
Most of us are in favor of allowing people to choose that risk, while you have stated that you'd be pleased if people were forcibly excluded from discussion just to soothe your irrational "annoyance" with nicknames.
No surprise. You prefer style over substance, and you are quick to make smug, insulting generalizations. You are kin to tone trolls.
Posted by: Aquaria
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July 7, 2010 9:24 PM
It's why I never just "pick up the phone", but I wait until the answering machine kicks in as well as checking the caller ID.
At the Redhead household, no call, unless expect.
I got a caller ID thing after that. I'd never needed one before. Even the breathers weren't as creepy.
As for our fink here:
Dude:
The reason you're getting crapped on, and rightfully so, is for the sheer arrogance, presumptuousness, sexism, utter lack of empathy, and narcissistic fucktardery of this remark:
Scroll up to my first post to find out what can happen to women who go online.
Care to guess what it took to find me?
My first name.
The town where I lived.
The general place where I worked. I didn't even work at a Post Office, per se. I never mentioned the exact site. But he called me at work, too.
Fuck you for presuming that people post anonymously only to annoy you, you misogynistic creep.
Posted by: Aquaria
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July 7, 2010 9:33 PM
Argh. Fingers faser than brain. Not posting anonymously to annoy you but "posting anonymously and it annoying you."
Maybe I didn't get enough sleep...
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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July 7, 2010 9:36 PM
cafink #229
I think your "annoyance" about the use of pseudonyms is not only immature but also fucking stupid. Who, besides you, gives a rat's ass about your annoyance? Caine and others have given real-life reasons for using internet pseudonyms Trust me, shit for brains, pseudonyms are not used just to annoy your dumb ass.
As for your whining about language, this is Pharyngula. As the late A. Bertram Chandler said: "This is Liberty Hall. You can spit on the mat and call the cat a bastard."
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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July 7, 2010 9:41 PM
cafink:
Oh FFS, any more whining you want to do? What did you expect, Carl? Really, I'm asking. You came in here with a smug, twittish attitude and it was all about your annoyance factor.
Not once did you display even a remote idea that other people actually exist and have distinct reasons for not sharing your opinion. And after that rather stunning display of self absorption, you want to whine about the aggression of New Atheists, eh? Unbelievable. Listen, Carl, I speak for myself, got that? I'm not waving a "new atheist banner" around, so stuff that whiny little tactic, please.
This is not about computer games. The fact that you don't even grasp that much is telling.
Posted by: CW
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July 7, 2010 9:45 PM
@Aquaria
Yeah, it's not only invalid for others to treasure their privacy, your fear actively displeases him.
Posted by: Ichthyic
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July 7, 2010 9:46 PM
Oh FFS, any more whining you want to do?
yes, quite tired of this particular whinge.
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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July 7, 2010 9:50 PM
cafink:
Well, your tender-hearted self should probably go back to your safe little net bubble where you don't have to deal with any life other than your own and you can keep pretending the only reality that counts is yours.
As 'Tis said, This is Pharyngula.
Posted by: cafink
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July 7, 2010 11:35 PM
Intelligent, civilized discourse, devoid of sophomoric name-calling, much like the kind I'm used to seeing on a message board I frequent, which requires uses to post under their real name.
Posted by: cafink
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July 7, 2010 11:49 PM
To elaborate, I accept that my initial post on the subject was a bit short-sighted and self-absorbed. I never meant to speak for anyone but myself and, just so we're clear, I apologize for my condescending remarks.
That said, I confess I'm still taken aback by the vitriol my post has prompted. I don't frequent Pharyngula as much as I do some other forums, but this kind of response if foreign to me--and not for lack of me making an ass of myself elsewhere, I assure you. I guess it was my mistake for assuming I'd find a friendly, welcoming atmosphere on Pharyngula.
Posted by: CW
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July 8, 2010 1:04 AM
It's your ideas that are drawing the vitriol, not your presence.Really, much more irritating than the condescension is your complete (and continued) lack of concern for the people who would be harmed by this.
Posted by: John Morales
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July 8, 2010 1:27 AM
cafink,
Huh? No, you're welcome here, and it's a mistake to think otherwise.
That your comments don't get automatic approbation or immunity from criticism doesn't make this an unfriendly place.
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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July 8, 2010 1:37 AM
cafink:
And you really can't figure out why you're being trounced on here? You give new definition to obtuse. If using real names was obligatory here at Pharyngula, your reception would be exactly the same. What does it take to get through to you that it's your particular POV on this subject which is not going over well at all?
You have had one example after another as to why it is a very bad idea to force people to use real world information on a website. Even so, you continue to be an asshole who refuses to get a clue. You persist in thinking that the only consequence would be people being nicer because of using real names. That's absolute crap.
Here at Pharyngula, we have regular run-ins with what we call Tone Trolls™ and Pearl Clutchers™. These are people who think tone is much, much more important than substance. While these folks don't swear, they have a tendency to be pure poison dipped in sugar. At Pharyngula, substance is valued, not tone or style. What matters is whether or not you have a valid point and whether or not you can back it up. There's a tremendous amount of intelligent discourse here, more than you'll find in most places. If you'd rather clutch your pearls over the tone, there's a simple solution: leave.
My point is valid and it has been backed up, by myself and by others. Your point, on the the other hand, is not one you can back up, so instead you're focusing on whining about tone and style. It would be nice if you would stop that. There, I didn't even say fuck, so you think you could focus on the substance of what I'm saying here?
You have stated yourself that you are a white male who doesn't attract a great deal of attention. This means you are coming from a perspective of privilege, on more than one level. The people who will always end up being hurt by such policies as the one Blizzard wants to implement are not coming from privilege; many are in groups which are hated and vilified, not just on-line but in every day life as well.
The fact that you aren't bothered by using your real world info is irrelevant. As I said earlier, your experiences are yours, no one elses. Using your experiences to inform your viewpoint as to how others should behave is idiotic to say the least; so is the assumption that people will care more about their reputation if they use their real world info. That's flat out not true. You apparently didn't get that I've been using Caine for 15 years. I'll even answer to it when used in non-net life. What I (or anyone else) calls themselves makes no difference to who they are as a person. The only thing being forced into using real world info does is to put people at unnecessary risk. You, however, refuse to see that because you aren't at risk. At least for the moment. (No, that last bit isn't a threat, simply a reminder that you aren't in your safe place at the moment, and you never know who might be reading, dude.)
I don't care if you feel okay with using your real world info. I don't care if you shout it from every corner of the net. What I care about is your persistent assholish insistence that your petty annoyance counts for anything other than a pile of indefensible shit. Your continued insistence that it is more than a pile of shit is beyond idiocy and your carping about tone is both tiring and boring.
Posted by: CW
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July 8, 2010 1:57 AM
@Caine:
With all the passive-aggressive tut-tuts about "internet meanness" it really hits home that I would much rather post on a forum where I'll get called on my (occasional) bullshit than deal with people too meek to use social sanctions against those who post uninformed statements.
Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe
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July 8, 2010 3:01 AM
FIFYyour annoyance at nicknames because you don't like them, don't bother to think that people have very serious reasons to use them, and are too fucking old and crusty to understand net-culture is far more offensive than any swearing that we could ever produce. Hiding your privilege behind "civility" doesn't make it any less so.
Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
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July 8, 2010 3:09 AM
Whitey McStraighterson is annnoyed that the rest of us have reasons to stay behind a pseudonym.
Call me shocked at the level of empathy he's displaying.
Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe
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July 8, 2010 3:17 AM
and before I get trounced for using "old" as an insult, let me point out that I mean it in the "I hope I die before I get old" sort of way; actual date of birth is irrelevant :-p
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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July 8, 2010 3:28 AM
CW:
Word. If I say something stupid here, I count on people to tell me I've said something stupid - keeps me sharp, on my toes and more to point, helps me be a better person all around.
Posted by: Louis
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July 8, 2010 4:57 AM
Said this on the other thread too, repeating here for maximum comedy effect:
There is one game no one is mentioning in all of this, and it is the best game on the internet: Runescape.
{waits for howls of derision/scorn/outrage to subside}
No. Really. Best game ever. Sex is a poor second etc etc etc. Ok perhaps not. But it is a decent rpg experience even in the technology isn't as awe inspiring as WoW etc. Erm...apparently. I've never played it of course. Mate of mine told me about it.
Louis
Posted by: Dymara
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July 9, 2010 2:48 AM
Fuck this noise, yo! I'm never leaving my good ol' NetHack again!
Seriously, though, thinking about what would happen if some of the things I've said about my gender identity while behind pseudonyms were linked back to my legal name... *shudder* ._.
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