…and this is a 
Blizzard, makers of the games Starcraft and World of Warcraft, is about to change their forum policies and require the display of real names, basically creating a massive privacy leak if you buy a silly game and go online to get some tech support. There's an excellent summary of why this was a really bad idea here, and apparently Blizzard has an inkling of possible problems — they're waffling about whether to publish employee names under their new terms. If it's not a problem for users, why should employees get an exemption?
Also, I've been sent a few links to sites where people are demonstrating what can be done with names and a little information: they're digging up all kinds of amazing info about Blizzard employees. Photos, family pictures, home addresses, financial statements, shoe sizes, wedding registries, children's school addresses, that sort of thing. I'm not going to post those links here! Personally, I've been very casual about my privacy, but we have to respect people's decision to avoid public entanglements of this sort—and buying a garish box at Electronics Boutique for some casual entertainment should not be a tacit agreement to allow stalkers to track you down.
Comments
Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD)
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July 9, 2010 9:11 AM
Does anybody know if this change will affect older posts? I really hope it won't. If nobody knows, I'll go hunt the answer myself.
Posted by: lpolon
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July 9, 2010 9:13 AM
i'm tempted to conclude that therefore bizzard fans (i'm included) are a bunch of potential criminals..
Posted by: Whiskeyjack
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July 9, 2010 9:17 AM
I currently live in South Korea, where the law is you can only do things with your real name on the internet. In order to register for on-line shopping, for instance, they needed a copy of my passport and foreigner ID card.
I guess a few years ago some celebrity killed herself because people were saying mean things about her on the internet. *shrug*
Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 9:23 AM
Being a FFXI player for the better part of late 2002 to current, I am unaware of most of the bullshit that Blizzard spews.
Is the problem that all forums associated with WoW content must be tied in with Blizzard monitoring? Or just that the most popular/best forums are tied in with Blizzard?
After close to 8 years of Square-Enix doing their best impression of a deaf-mute when it comes to the community and the top forums being completely independent of SE interactions (and there being no official POL or SE related forum that ANYONE uses) I can't imagine why people are so up in arms about this.
Maybe I am just lacking reading comprehension skills on these articles, but I can't see the privacy violation being globally applicable. Only seems to be a problem if you want to post on Blizzard forums.
Maybe I just can't relate.
Posted by: nonsensemachine
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July 9, 2010 9:25 AM
I cannot fathom how anyone would think this is a good idea long enough to even bring it up at a meeting, much less said meeting coming to an agreement that this is a good idea and then announcing it and seriously considering doing it.
Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives
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July 9, 2010 9:27 AM
KOPD - it's been reported in several places that it won't go back and change names on old posts. Although the insinuation seems to be that it's only because the software won't work that way, not that they don't want to.
Posted by: HawkOfMay
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July 9, 2010 9:36 AM
Blizzard Real ID Troll:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NgAkWxcPBE
Apparently the video itself is a meme in eastern Europe similar to the Hitler video meme.
Posted by: PS9
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July 9, 2010 9:37 AM
Blizzard's "logic" and "thinking" reminds me of Jeremy Clarkson of the BBC. Clarkson didn't believe that people could violate others' privacy, that it was all overreaction to nothing. He so much believed that nothing would happen that he put some of his real personal information on the internet for anyone to see.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7174760.stm
Hackers set up Clarkson's account to automatically send money to a charity (they could have done far worse things). Clarkson then changed his opinion, but only after realizing the damage of his own stupidity. One wonders if Blizzard will have to endure the same thing to learn.
OT: Whiskeyjack, where do you work? I lived in Korea for a few years and I don't miss it, especially the ever-annoying catholics and baptists. Taiwan is much better except at Chinese New Year and all the frigging fireworks. (I can't see how to send a private message to you to keep this out of public discussion.)
Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD)
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July 9, 2010 9:38 AM
Carlie,
Thank you for that. I only just thought of that and was hoping somebody had been paying more attention than me. I never posted much on Blizzard forums, but I just don't like my meatspace name being out there.
Sath,
This is the third thread on the topic here. Read some of the comments on the previous threads for context about why people are upset. In short, it's not necessarily that anybody here feels it affects them personally, but more to do with how it will negatively affect the people who do post there (especially anybody not a straight white male). It's easy enough for somebody to track down some of us who have used the same nym for a while, but giving out real names gives the crazies the advantage. I hope I'm making sense - I'm tired and in a hurry.
Posted by: Bob L
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July 9, 2010 9:38 AM
One of my friends was doing customer service for one of those on line games and the gamer dwebs got a hold of his full name and messed with his credit. With all the petty drama and hurt feeling posting peoples real names is just opening a can of worms.
Posted by: Truckle
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July 9, 2010 9:45 AM
The people from Blizzard have clearly not seen what people can do with your real names and addresses on the intarwebz.
For reasearch go to 4Chan and click /b...
Posted by: iamthescum13
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July 9, 2010 9:45 AM
I'm curious about something.
Most people don't mind having people in the "real world" know their name, but on the internet, it's this huge risky thing. I'm wondering what the distinction is. Sure, there are people trying to prove their case by doing bad things with people's names, but couldn't they just as easily be flipping through the phonebook and doing the exact same things?
I'm not trying to say that Blizzard's policy is no big deal. I'm just playing armchair psychologist, here.
Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 9:46 AM
@KOPD
No, no, I understand that much. My main question is what is so good/tempting/rewarding about posting on Blizzards forums?
As I said, I can only compare via the experience with SE and POL that all FFXI users share. That experience being, basically, that if SE made an official FFXI forum for everyone to migrate to tomorrow nearly everyone who already actively contribute to forum discussions across the many sites would tell them to f*ck off.
I'm just not familiar with the Blizzard side of the MMORPG forums. My perspective on it is that I would never want to post on a forum hosted by the company that makes the game I'm playing. Wondering why and how it is different for Blizzard players.
Posted by: strawdog
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July 9, 2010 9:47 AM
Blizzard is doing this because of a cooperation with Facebook. FB is pushing them to do this and integrate their social networking tools: http://bit.ly/byQ6C7
It's a shot in the foot though!
Posted by: juniandi
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July 9, 2010 9:48 AM
@Sath
Just because Square-Enix is a deaf mute when it comes to their players' online community does not mean that is how every company is. A major part of the WoW players' outrage is, in fact, due to the fact that Blizzard has always been extremely open with their playerbase and has traditionally maintained an active dialog, through the forums among other places, about what is going on in game, what works, what doesn't, and what is being worked on for the future. Blizzard has always very strongly directed people to the forums to report bugs, exploits, technical issues, and to receive basic tech support. Now, with the upcoming RealID change to display everyone's full name when they post on any of Blizzard's forums, that large, and often used, resource will be closed to anyone who for any reason (and there are many, from abusive ex's to online stalkers to a simple desire for some degree of anonymity) does not want their name displayed on every post they make.
To look at it another way, while Square-Enix may not have an active official forum, you yourself have said that FFXI players congregate on other online forums. Would you post there if every post you made would not only show your full name, but every character you play on every server? Or would you comment here if it had to be done not only with your full name, but also every internet handle you use anywhere on the net? That is what this is like in it's fullest. In the end not only is RealID going to make it so that full names are displayed, but through the "friend of a friend" domino effect will make it so that every in game handle of every player who makes a forum post will be known to anyone who takes half a minute to look.
Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD)
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July 9, 2010 9:52 AM
Well, I posted there for tech support (well, bug reporting actually). A trivial thing, and since I didn't post there for anything else, it probably wouldn't attract anyone's attention. Still, I'd rather not do it under my real name.Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 9:55 AM
@iamthescum13
Echoing the go to 4chan /b/ (NSFW). Post your first and last name and act like a tough guy. Wait two hours -> frantically call your bank and attempt to resolve the now $20,000 or so debt that you've accumulated, apologize to your boss / teachers for sending them hardcore porn videos that play upon opening of the email, cancel a few hundred amazon.com and paypal orders that are set to be shipped to your house from your CC.
Etc.
It may sound like I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. Last thread I was able to follow was of an underage (not allowed on /b/ under 18) kid who posted a detention slip and tried to act cool. Next morning his father some job trouble (don't remember details), kid had been suspended from school pending investigation into a "credible threat of violence against the school", and sister had photoshopped naked pictures of herself plastered over pretty much every building of her college campus.
It'd be frightening if it wasn't so hilarious.
Posted by: Personal Failure
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July 9, 2010 9:57 AM
@Sath:
You are obviously not a woman gamer. I don't even try to play games online anymore, because even though my gamer tag is gender neutral, as soon as I talk, a necessity in most games these days, everyone knows and you would not believe the disgusting, misogynistic crap that gets thrown your way as soon as you're outed as a woman. I last 5 minutes in one Gears of War match before I gave up. I'm not easily offended or shocked, but . . . yikes, some people are disgusting.
On a message board, I could easily choose not to out myself. Nobody can hear my voice and I can use a name that gives nothing away. (Often, new readers of my blog assume I'm a man until they read otherwise.) What Blizzard is proposing to do is ensure that everyone on the board know that every woman is a woman. No gender anonymity on Blizzard's turf! The online harassment alone will be epic, but it will be nothing compared to what happens to a few unlucky women offline as a result of Blizzard's policy.
Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 10:01 AM
@juniandi
Got it. That makes more sense. Didn't realize Blizzard was so closely tied in to their playerbase.
Re: if independent forums did the RealID thing
No, I just would stop posting there. Assuming there must be a different atmosphere from WoW to FFXI. I only post to contribute information to other less experience players. If I was going to be inconvenienced in any way I'd just stop. No skin off of my back, so to speak.
However, I think I do understand the difference between Blizzard and SE. Offering open channels for conversation between DEV team and player base, then restricting those channels after the fact by implementing this system is a bit crazy.
Almost like a, "criticize us at your own risk" or something similar. Again, I'm not sure if the forums are criticism heavy as I'm not a WoW player, but it's shady nonetheless.
Thanks for the explanation.
Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD)
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July 9, 2010 10:01 AM
To pull a number from the air, let's say 1% of any population are creepy assholes. Then the number of creepy assholes reading this blog today is a much much bigger number than the number of creepy assholes I've met in meatspace.
And some do. But far more use the Internet because it has more reach than the phonebook.Posted by: ihedenius
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July 9, 2010 10:05 AM
Here's a comment I thought interesting:
... ...Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 10:09 AM
@Personal Failure
My wife has played FFXI with me for the past 4 years and posts on the same FFXI forum I do under her ingame name, which is also her real first name.
Never had a single issue. Although, admittedly, playing in game in the same linkshell (guild for WoW?) with your husband probably makes it a less stressful situation for the female players.
Might be a difference in playerbase between an American MMORPG that is actively marketed to kids in the west vs. a Japanese MMORPG that isn't marketed to anyone outside of Japan?
There must be some difference in community if you're having that many problems just from admitting you're a woman. In almost 8 years I haven't been in a single linkshell that didn't have at least 2 female gamers speaking on Ventrilo or Skype at almost all hours.
Posted by: raven
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July 9, 2010 10:09 AM
In real life, you might deal with a few or a few dozen people and have a lot of control over who they are. You will know a lot about them too.
Posting on Pharyngula, your potential audience is several billion people. Some of those will be crazy or malevolent. You have no idea how many or who they are. But they will know who you are.
It is simple and obvious.
Posted by: unbound
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July 9, 2010 10:10 AM
Great link summarizing the potential problems. Having played WoW for 4 years myself, I agree 100% with that post. When news of this hit, I immediately remembered a significant number of events where people went through ridiculous lengths to harass me over innocent events just because the perceived something bad happened (no, I'm not female, minority, or any other target...just a simple fact of there are jerks in the game that will get offended over any little issue that they perceive was done against them). Those people I encountered (about once every 2-3 months in my case) will definitely go to the forums to hunt you down.
Another important point to consider, this policy won't actually do anything about the problem stated (i.e. flame wars, trolling, etc). The only people that will actually have to provide their real names are the ones that use credit cards for the recurring charges. For everyone else that uses game cards, you enter whatever name you want. Expect to see a lot of "Harry Potter"s posting after this is implemented or (even worse) someone's name (there is this co-worker that I don't really like...).
So, in summary, the innocent will get hurt, some of the jerks in life will get an easy-to-use tool to track people down, and the problem to be solved will not be affected at all. Way to go Activision-Blizzard!!
Posted by: Thomathy
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July 9, 2010 10:11 AM
Has any other Canadian here the inkling that what Blizzard is proposing is prohibited by our privacy laws?
I distinctly recall that Facebook was forced to operate within our laws and adopted most of our privacy requirements to their international services.
Is it likely that Blizzard will get the warning, 'Be banned, or improve your privacy protection to meet our standards'?
Posted by: shreddakj
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July 9, 2010 10:15 AM
I hope all the people unsubscribing makes blizzard think about changing their minds.
Posted by: SQB (fuck death)
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July 9, 2010 10:20 AM
Upside to this would be all possible assholes having their real name and information on the board as well. I know, still enough opportunities to harass anonymously, but still...
Posted by: nomen-nescio.myopenid.com
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July 9, 2010 10:21 AM
online games must be excellent study material for sociologists, especially if they want to compare different games to try and ferret out the reasons (if any) behind cultural differences in the player populations.
i play Perfect World International, and although it's got some considerable sexism/homophobia issues of its own, they're nothing compared to what people are talking about for other games here. there's a thread on the PWI forum (official, run by the game company, and a great resource for the players) talking about in-game come-ons and harrassment right now. although several players are reporting genuine problems with it, it just doesn't rise anywhere near what, e.g., Personal Failure mentions in #18. nor have i seen anything remotely that bad in-game.
makes me wonder if this difference is down to anything the game creators can influence, or if it's more blind luck about what player community happens to congregate.
Posted by: gettingfree
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July 9, 2010 10:25 AM
Here's an example of why someone playing online with others (who may turn out to be psychos) might not want their real name easily accessible to everyone...
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/05/27/2010-05-27_video_gamer_hunts_down_stabs_man_who_killed_his_online_counterstrike_character.html
Posted by: Whiskeyjack
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July 9, 2010 10:27 AM
PS9:
I'm in Daegu, which is the conservative stronghold here. Joy. I've heard good things about Taiwan, but I was in Japan before this and I'm planning on going back. Korea is for the birds IMHO.
I just hope it doesn't get nuked before my contract's up. :P
Posted by: jaranath
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July 9, 2010 10:30 AM
Unbound @24 (or anyone):
I haven't been following this whole mess much, and so at this stage no one is mentioning what the actual "problem to be solved" IS. What is Blizzard's explanation for this? Besides "we want more money."
Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 10:30 AM
@PF
Small follow-up since your post got me thinking a bit.
Since NA release a handful of players have gained worldwide recognition within the community for exceptional feats or contributions to the game. I'm not sure how to appropriately relate the accomplishments to WoW so I won't try, but I will toss some info about a close friend of mine who I've had the privilege of playing alongside for a small portion of my 8 years in game.
The first completed Relic weapon by a non-asian player in the entire world was done by a player named Kirschy. One of the most remarkable accomplishments that has gained her worldwide recognition within the community notwithstanding, she continued on to pretty much dominate the NA FFXI playerbase for years to come.
Following the first NA relic weapon, she completed the first Mythic scythe weapon worldwide, single-handedly cracked the formula for calculating maximum haste by category and total, cracked the spell recast interval and maximum formulas, compiled and eventually completed all known data regarding weapon delay and revised all data within a week of any update that changed it, etc.
To this day she remains the namesake of the Fenrir server, and probably the single most well known North American FFXI player and the largest contributer to the FFXI community as a whole.
Now, obviously I don't apply this very strict scenario to all female gamers, but I really think there must be a stark difference in the communities of FFXI and WoW if the figurehead for an entire country in one game can be a female, and you can be chased off the scene in another for just existing as a female.
Makes me glad I don't play WoW, really, and I'm a guy.
Sorry for overly anecdotal evidence. Hard to compare personal experiences in online communities.
Posted by: firebird
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July 9, 2010 10:31 AM
I play World of Warcraft, and the only use I have for the forums is occasionally reading them when the game is down and I don't know why. If I want help I put in an ingame ticket for a gamemaster (it's happened twice in two years, and no, I didn't get much help, but they were insignificant issues, and the second time they helped a more important unstated issue). The population of World of Warcraft that is vocal and annoying seems to be children, because it goes down during school hours.
However, the real name thing worries me because I heard something on the news (sorry don't have a link) about a man who tracked down another man and killed him, dead, because the victim had killed the perpetrator's character in a video game. I understood it to be the type of game where the character dies once and doesn't come back, unlike WoW, but still...way over the top, and crazy people aren't limited in the type of game they can play.
Posted by: Ibis3, féministe avec un titre française de fantaisie
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July 9, 2010 10:32 AM
@25
Yes, I do think the Privacy Commissioner will be all over this if it's reported to her. But I don't think they can do anything proactively.
Posted by: unbound
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July 9, 2010 10:36 AM
@jaranath - the announcement (http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=25626109041&sid=3000&pageNo=1 information for this is in the 3rd paragraph) states the intent of the change is to minimize or eliminate trolling, flame wars and other unpleasantness from their forums.
As I mentioned in my previous post, using Real Id won't actually accomplish that...and no other "official" reason is being provided for this change.
Posted by: illwill
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July 9, 2010 10:38 AM
There is one shining example I have seen of why this is one of the worst ideas blizzard has ever come up with. I saw something like this said on the World of Warcraft forums yesterday...
"This is awesome, now I can find out who that girl with the really hot sounding voice is in my guild and ""accidentally"" bump into her in real life".
I'll post a link to the actual post if I can find it again.
Posted by: shinrai
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July 9, 2010 10:41 AM
@Sath
I am sure there is plenty of QQ about this over on BG or maybe even Alla. You might get a better perspective there.
Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawl3TpOVyxxwCT5cVU3M80c_cpxoMBZmiOQ
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July 9, 2010 10:42 AM
1) Names are NOT revealed for old posts. Only for new posts.
2) They are only revealed in the discussion board. Don't post there -> Nothing bad happens. For in-game naming you can disable the player-ID.
I agree that this is not a very strategic move, but then, it isn't as bad as people make it sound.
Posted by: unbound
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July 9, 2010 10:42 AM
@firebird - keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of people in the game behave. However, the reason I am concerned is that WoW alone has about 10 million subscribers...1% is 100,000 people. I would say that 1% or so matches the encounters I had in the game.
Keep in mind that "/ignore" has been included in nearly every one of these types of games because of the harassment that occurs. Giving the jerks an easy tool to bypass is just a bad idea.
Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 10:47 AM
@Shinrai
Lol. Actually, as BG is my homepage still (despite being retired now) I popped right on over after reading this topic. Checked GD, checked the WoW sub-forum, did a general search - found absolutely nothing.
Only reason I asked the question here, really. I also figured that BG would give me a better perspective on it.
There may be something on Alla but I try my hardest to avoid that site since it makes my brain turn to mush quicker than reading pro-creationist arguments. I think I have a general understanding of it now anyways, thanks to juniandi.
Posted by: futuremonkey
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July 9, 2010 10:50 AM
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Docs
NSFW, but might be a privacy eye-opener to some.
Posted by: jaranath
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July 9, 2010 10:57 AM
Thanks, unbound. I suppose if this only affects Blizzard's forums, then I don't care much. But I sure as hell won't be posting there.
Posted by: cairne.morane
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July 9, 2010 11:00 AM
@iamthescum13
I think the problem lies in that in the "real world" we choose who we associate with. Either explicitly or implicitly (what colleges we go to, where we live and work). In an online forum, which would include interactive games, we have no such choice. Other than play or not play. If you play then you've automatically chosen to associate in some form with anyone else who is playing. Whether they're a doting parent or a deranged 16-year with access to his fathers gun cabinet. In an online forum we don't have all the interpersonal feedback we so it's difficult to judge who to associate with.
Some players in WoW already harass other players over perceived slights in game. Harassment is punishable, by being banned from the game, but Blizzard has shown little to no inclination to do this. If they had then the WoW forums wouldn't be in the state they are.
That said, and although I strongly disagree with what the company is doing, the outcry is somewhat akin to making a mountain out of a foothill. To answer Sath's question, this change only affects Warcraft's official forums. Forums that were generally worthless anyway. Much better, ie moderated, forums are available at other sites.
Possibly the worst effect will be to restrict users access to tech support via the forums.
It's a also a troubling glimpse of the future. Will real names be required to even play Starcraft II or Diablo III online?
Posted by: unbound
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July 9, 2010 11:01 AM
@ 38 - I agree. If you use very good precautions, you shouldn't be affected. Now, on to the reality of the situation, most parents are not game savvy enough to know what their kids are doing and warn their kids of what to do.
I have 3 kids. I've had to educate them on how to behave so that they don't get bit by things like this. Regardless of that education about being cautious, I've caught my daughter posting on various forums. To her, she's simply being helpful in a discussion. But going forward, I either need to revoke forum permissions for her, or educate her on how to lie sufficiently so that people don't track her down over some difference in the forums, or some silly incident in the game. And this is just the kids angle in which most parents wouldn't know how to lock down their kids account...and the kids are too innocent to realize what they could get into (yes, my daughter has been harassed in game even though she has never intentionally provoked anyone).
Now let's move on to the adults that like to play the games and participate in the discussions, but really aren't security savvy (plenty of them in any community of users). How do you educate them? There have already been several incidents just in the last few days of the arrogant putting up their names saying that they can't be tracked only ending up eating their words (http://seewhatyoudidthere.com/2010/07/07/realid-changes-the-very-real-ease-of-stalking-in-the-internet-age/).
For every flame war thread, there are dozens of decent threads. For every troll, there are dozens of people that are just trying to participate in a discussion. For every unpleasantness posted, there are dozens of civilized discussions. Your argument that things aren't as bad as it seems actually applies better to the current state of the forums for Blizzard.
Posted by: Teshi
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July 9, 2010 11:01 AM
You know what we should do, then? We should have female players chaperoned by male relatives. It's for their own protection...
I'm not a gamer, but I do sometimes exist on a male-dominated conversation venue (let us call it). Even if I don't get harassed in the traditional sense, I do get, "LOL Teshi's a girl?" "Are you a girl Teshi?" "I don't believe it!" "There are no girls on the internet LOLLOL".
Then I get bombarded with polite but curiously suddenly interested questions. It gets boring.
Posted by: shinrai
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July 9, 2010 11:11 AM
@Sath
Really? That surprises me. (I am such a casual that I'm not even registered on BG though, fwiw...been playing since CoP and I still don't have any 75s. ;P)
Posted by: Dae
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July 9, 2010 11:21 AM
This is a great (and very funny) blog post about the issue that's been linked on my raid organization's forums.
There was also a very interesting thread on the WoW General Discussion forum last night started by a female player, discussing the stalking worries of women in the game. It touched on a lot of the feminist issues we saw here in the recent threads about women in skepticism, and of course had the predictable posters telling women what they should do about the situation.
Many of my game friends, and I myself, have emailed Blizzard with our concerns, but what it's sounding like from people who know Blizzard employees is that this is an Activision idea and the actual Blizzard people are none too pleased about it, either. Likely the only thing that will truly get the message across given Activision's track record is a massive wave of account cancellations - which is also happening. (Some for good, some planning to re-up the account when it runs out, just for the chance to submit the comment in the "why are you cancelling" box...)
Posted by: jaranath
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July 9, 2010 11:22 AM
That's an excellent point, unbound, hadn't thought of it quite that way. It creates a default situation where the unwary would expose themselves. I'm not a parent yet, but I SURE as hell wouldn't want my (hopefully future) kids posting their names in a gaming forum.
Posted by: Tzi
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July 9, 2010 11:22 AM
A lot of people are commenting on the impact of the gaming world discovering their real name, but I haven't seen anyone mention the opposite problem: real life discovering their gaming alter-ego. A lot of people, including many prominent theorycrafters and community support, have the kind of careers that require them to maintain a professional, squeaky-clean appearance (lawyers, high-profile public figures, etc). They can’t risk having their employer or clients google their name and find a bunch of video game forum posts. It could mean their job.
I’m less worried about an axe murderer finding me than I am about facing real life repercussions because my employer and every potential future employer now knows that I’m a fairly serious gamer outside of the office.
Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 11:27 AM
@Teshi
I've seen more than my share of that kind of behavior. Do we call that harassment though? Or is that just the price we pay for dealing with the occasional 15 year old in a "insert online setting here"?
Personally, I don't like that crap anymore than the women do, I'm sure. It is a pretty big indicator that the people in question are immature children who will more often than not just waste my time. I /blacklist (/ignore for WoW?) those people as soon as I see them even if I'm not interacting with them. I'd assume it's the same for women, but then again, I'm not one.
I think that really outlines the problem. Men are not women (duh?). I can cite anecdotal evidence, even some of it can be on-point and convincing, but I'm not on the receiving end of any of it. I, and my fellow males, never see the /tells (whispers, private messages, emails, whatever) so the scope of the nastiness may be far deeper than we realize.
That being said, I do think that reasonable people, no matter what gender, will shy away from people (children?) with that sort of creepy personality.
But where is the line really drawn? Obviously the "no girls on the internet" is a joke, but is it deemed insulting? From my perspective as a gamer it is a "the female character who is hitting on you is a 14 year old guy in his bedroom trying to get free gear, you idiot, stop flirting with them" but other venues? I don't know. I liken situations like that to the fact that, stereotypically, there can apparently exist no male MMORPG players who aren't obese, acne-ridden, basement dwellers who live off of hot pockets. Any time a male to male dispute comes up with an immature or irrational person, the "I'm a bodybuilder I'm going to find you and beat you up you fat blah blah blah" comes up. I've been on the receiving end of it more times than I can count (actually since I see shinrai commented here, he would be familiar with a famous topic of mine where somebody who supposedly looked exactly like 50 cent tried to blackmail me online).
Obviously the male to female derogatory comments online are maybe less vindictive but far more creepy? That isn't to say, though, that the online stereotyping is one-sided. Asinine, immature, crazy people will take any angle they can to attack you. I've had my more threats on my life made online than I can possibly count. If I took every one of them seriously I'd never be able to leave the house. That isn't to say that I won't one day I might finally piss off the wrong person and wind up stabbed in the face, but I highly doubt it.
A recent comment referenced WoW subscription at over 10,000,000 which dwarfs FFXI subs at around 500,000. Clearly we're talking different communities, but forum, MMORPG, social networking site, whatever, I think the ability to recognize that not everyone has an opinion worth listening to is something you have to walk in with. Male or female.
Just to insulate myself, regarding females, I'm only really referencing the "OMG UR A GIRL" and etc comments. I wouldn't dare assume I know what it is like to be sexually harassed or threatened online. Not my area.
Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 11:29 AM
@Shinrai
Ah, I had assumed you were the player whose name is Shinrai in their signature (amano SAM I believe?).
My mistake on that part. But you're right, it is very surprising.
Posted by: Paul
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July 9, 2010 11:36 AM
You know the pathetic part? Many of the Blue (Blizzard) posters' names are already common knowledge in the WoW community for anyone who cares to know. I had somewhat mixed feelings on the original announcement (although on balance I thought it was a negative, they should respect their customers and not open them to stalking and harassment), but the idea that they'd waffle on subjecting their posters to the same rules makes it a complete farce.
Posted by: Paul
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July 9, 2010 11:39 AM
Pretty much. This was odd to me, as I played a previous MMO with a fairly vibrant forum community where I moderated and administrated a couple different fansites over the years (although one was eventually deemed "the official site" by the company running the game). The official Blizzard forums killed off many outside community forums. Some people still use them (like mmo-champion or worldofraids), but it's mostly the hardcore players always wanting news. The people that just want to socialize with other players tend to do it on the official forums.
Posted by: Teshi
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July 9, 2010 11:46 AM
@50 Sath
No, it's not harassment in the traditional sense, although it should be noted that all unwanted attention is harassment even if it's apparently flattering or polite.
I have, once, had to leave a game (back when I did that kind of thing) because of being "found out". What is flattering and polite unwanted attention can turn very rapidly into vindictive anger-- which you talked about male-to-male. However, this can be caused by interaction of a purely social level.
And these people are certainly not just fifteen year olds. I was talking specifically about college-age students. Their emotional maturity is, however, sometimes under question. At least I can usually end the porn discussion.
What it does mean in this particular situation that my femininity overshadows the fact that I am a person. As I said in the women-in-skepticism thread, I don't come to flirt. That assumption is made by many males and it is a boring pain.
Posted by: shinrai
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July 9, 2010 11:48 AM
@Sath
Nope, I was on Pandy before they closed it. (Somebody on Asura had the name on a mule >.>)
My SAM is level 10 last time I checked...maybe one of these days if I actually have time to play the game ;)
Posted by: Dae
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July 9, 2010 11:51 AM
Paul #53, and the person you were quoting -
The news and theorycrafting that's on the general forums can pretty much always be found and discussed on prominent sites elsewhere, but the realm forums are a pretty unique social environment and I think the loss of participation on them will be devastating.
My own server (Silver Hand) has a major cross-guild raiding organization that's become a sever amoeba (I forget what the %tage of raiding we account for at last reckoning, but it was the majority of the raids on the server; almost everything but the top couple of guilds and the trade channel PuGs) with its own forums, and a privately-run set of forums called the Silver Hand Tavern that's kind of the Mos Eisley Cantina of the server, for the social environment, but most realms really are given a lot of their community life on the official forums.
Posted by: SEF
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July 9, 2010 11:58 AM
@ #12:
Quite a lot of people do - probably mostly the same ones with the sense to have internet concerns. In the UK, people can be ex-directory (so that they can't be looked up in the phone book) and unlisted in the public version of the electoral register (again to avoid being easily found). This makes it slightly harder for fire-bombers to find specific scientists or medics and their families to kill while away from the secure lab or hospital building.
Obviously people don't usually mind having family and friends know their name and usual locations - except when, for example, trying to avoid a murderous ex-partner. When shopping they may pay in cash. But even with a credit card, the shop person may not really know them (and there's some minimal protection on the easily available data). It's a far smaller and more controlled set of people who are far more traceable and accountable if they start to cause trouble.
A female who goes out in public at all is always at risk of having determined local perverts and rapists who have already seen her then go after her (ignoring the role domestic abuse plays). But at least she doesn't have to have many of the creepy stalker types among the zillions who read the internet also come looking for her if they happen to live nearby or have convenient travel arrangements. Ditto for children, homosexuals etc, atheists, foreigners, members of other hated or sensitive professions and anyone else whom the crazies prefer to attack.
The number disparity between the situations is huge, as are the control and accountability factors.
Posted by: Mr.Nerdz
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July 9, 2010 12:00 PM
Sadly, it's no longer Blizzard's experiment, they'd have changed it by now. It appears that Activision have taken over that area of Blizzard, and they hate it. Such is big business, all about the money, and customer care is just enough to keep them from revolting.
Posted by: Shala
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July 9, 2010 12:08 PM
I've said it before:
Fuck Activision. Fuck Bobby Kotick.
Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 12:13 PM
@Teshi
That's understandable. I have seen a lot of that, like I said. I have seen many male players just assume that since a girl is present, she must be interested in them (or some version of this delusion).
I don't really know what the answer to that is. Some games/settings lend themselves to being very selective and exclusive if you only want to play with a small group of close friends, others make it so you have no choice but to seek out large groups of untested players in order to progress. I don't think I'd like the latter style game very much, to be honest. If you have time to attempt to chase girls in a MMORPG you have time to shut up and stop sucking at the game (in strictly my view/opinion). I do make it a point to avoid anyone who would see a girl join the party and immediately unleash the flirting. It's a waste of my time (and theirs, and apparently from your experience, yours).
Now, like I said, it depends on the setting. If you're in a scenario where you are forced to interact with randoms, I would probably do the same thing you did (leave the game). In FFXI, for the most part, anything worth doing can be done with 6 people or less, and I've capitalized on that. Even the male to male interaction in large, random groups eventually devolves into dick measuring competitions and "no u!" arguments. If there's a female present it's unwarranted advances, if no female present it's like watching a bunch of male rams charge each other head on to determine superiority. Either scenario is ridiculous and tiring as far as I'm concerned. If someone acts like that, I assume they're 15, whether they're 20, or 25, or 45, if you act like a horny teenager - that's what I consider you.
So how does it translate into a girl-friendly situation? I don't know. It took me a lot of trial and error to find a small group of people to rely upon and play for years with. My wife and I, another married couple and their best friend, a long time Norwegian friend of mine.
Is it worth putting in that level of scrutiny just to participate in an online setting? Should it be necessary? Probably not and probably. It's a sad state of affairs for anyone in an online community who doesn't want their time wasted by idiots or sex-starved morons who think with their crotches.
Women should never have to hide their online identity, though. If you do then the fault is on the side of the producer of the game or the manager of the community. Really, in this day and age, there should be measures put into place so that people who don't want to dredge through the general populace can just enjoy a game with their friends (private servers, for example). I'd rather pay an extra $1 or $2 a month subscription to have the MM in MMORPG be a little less massive.
I do sympathize with your situation though. I find it just as boring to see group chat of some random trying to flirt with another random who happens to be a female character. It's annoying as hell to watch, yet every time they receive the "I'm a guy irl" they move on, unphased, to their next target. The commitment to their asinine behavior is almost worth of praise, and would be, if it wasn't so insulting and derogatory.
@Shinrai
Ah I see. Yeah, lots of people with similar names across some 20+ servers leaves me confused alot :p
Posted by: holydust
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July 9, 2010 12:15 PM
Sath: we get it. You play FFXI. As a former FFXI player who got fed up with the insane difficulty of that game and the inability to do anything by myself, I migrated to WoW about three years ago.
The reason people need the forums is that the Blues (GMs) post there often, and give direct assistance. SE, like you said, basically doesn't reach out to help or talk to its players in any way.
That said, this fiasco has caused me to bring my three year WoW stint to an end. I'm wrapping up my business and quitting. I've pre-registered the Collector's edition of FFXIV. If it's the same BS I put up with in FFXI, however, I will uninstall it faster than you can say lickety-split. I'm not being put through that torture again.
Regardless, you need to read the other threads, as well as the links PZ has posted related to them, if you want to understand why this is such a big deal. Not only is it obviously whacked that Blizzard is now considering protecting their staff from their new rules (showing that protection is apparently needed for some), but the new rules would put a lot of people in danger if they ever needed to post an official bug report or discuss seasonal events -- people who have been the victims of stalking attempts now risk a one-click giveaway if their username is connected to their real name on so much as one forum page. IT'S BAD, okay?
And yeah. This is the fault of Activision. That they think they can compete with Facebook is not only laughable, it's just another example of a greedy suit turning an entire corporation on its head for one bad business decision. He'll learn that he's killing the golden goose soon enough, when people start jumping ship. Other popular MMOs are just around the corner. No one's going to stick around for Cataclysm at this rate.
Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
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July 9, 2010 12:16 PM
I must note something to you, Juniandi:
One major thing I learned after getting out of WoW (Nothing personal, just playing other games) is that Blizzard is still not very good at maintaining a responsive relationship with the players. Maybe it's simply because they're enormous, and either way I don't really blame them, as I'm mostly a console game player; I think sales numbers are sufficient. But after witnessing Riot Games and Cryptic (Both of which had the game developers both hob and nob and talk srs with the fans), rather than going through CMs, Blizzard doesn't come off that well in comparison. I'm not even sure I'd compare them with Atlus, which actually fixes fan gripes with their games, and I'm relatively sure they don't just stay on their official forums for it.
@Sath:
I don't know, if you were told you didn't exist 10 to 20 times a week, do you think you'd still think it's a joke? I don't doubt it's intended as one, but...
And there are vindictive ones too. You realize women can get blamed for just about any major problem, right? I believe we're still to blame for the 'wussification' or 'pussification' of America. I'm not sure I'm sure which is more common, but I hear both so, so much it's fucking tiring.
Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
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July 9, 2010 12:20 PM
Cancel your preorder. I'm not saying it is, though my understanding from obsessive Alpha looking says it's not.It's that if you HATED the last product with fiery passion of a thousand burning stars, there's really no reason to preorder the next one. Let the rest of us sort it out and take the risks.
Posted by: GoatRider
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July 9, 2010 12:30 PM
http://www.gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20100707
Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 12:32 PM
@61
You're more of a sucker for punishment than I am, that's for sure. I still haven't pre-ordered FF14 for the same reason I never moved to WoW or Aion. Would have to start from scratch, not knowing many people, and figuring out who to avoid and who to play with all over again.
I'm not entirely sure I'll move to 14 and it's obvious I had a much brighter experience in 11 than you did. I don't think SE is any better than Blizzard, overall, in their handling of the bullshit (plus, to my knowledge, they're making 14 be almost 100% group based where in 11 you could get by with 2-6 people and enough determination). I have heard a lot of people with similar complaints to yours, I guess it's just perception? I had heard that WoW endgame was all huge, huge groups of players though, not single player friendly? Maybe I was misinformed.
Honestly though, if it seems like I'm blowing FFXIs horn I'm really not intending to. Maybe it just seems that way in contrast to this Blizzard fiasco, but I'm as big of a critic of SE as you will find. I think their customer service is one step below someone stepping on your throat.
@62
Well, I can't argue the fact that those stereotypes exist. Obviously the whole anti-feminism crap is a huge problem, and I'm not trying to belittle it, but is there a solution?
The difference between the internet and real life is that you have more choice in your surroundings online. If you get stuck with a chauvinistic boss at work your options drop to pretty much risking your career by complaining to HR, dealing with it, or quitting. You encounter that behavior online you have almost unlimited mobility or, in many cases, the ability to block that person from your view.
I'd like to think that even though it may be more prevalent on the internet, a woman has more avenues to prevent/avoid/block that type of thing.
Obviously the goal should be to abolish that behavior altogether, but I'm not really claiming to have an answer, nor am I claiming that one form of harassment is less than another, I'm just trying to get an idea of how certain attitudes are perceived by women since...you know, I'm not one and I can't make a judgment for one as a man. If I say, "that isn't harassment, suck it up" obviously I'm being derogatory and an ass, but I'm really not. I originally hadn't perceived that mindset as offensive, but I see now that it is. My perception as it not being offensive wasn't an attempt to tell you, or any other woman, that it isn't offensive and to get over it though.
Just trying to get a view from the other side of the fence is all.
Posted by: mistereveready
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July 9, 2010 12:49 PM
I think this is a great idea. A few people I knew owed me ingame money and now I'll be able to go get it personally.
Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 12:50 PM
@Shinrai
Found it! Was under gaming under a silly title.
http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3936224#post3936224
Posted by: Dae
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July 9, 2010 12:51 PM
They just rescinded it!
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=25968987278&sid=1
Posted by: fbudinichd
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July 9, 2010 1:04 PM
I've been in meetings were really stupid proposals are brought up... and I have not opposed them on purpose after pointing out the obviously bad consequences, after all it's their head that's gonna roll after it fails, not mine (not going to spend one millisecond defending someone so stupid as to propose such an idea).
The kind of person that usually proposes this kind of ideas, will usually hold a grudge against you and do everything on their reach to oppose your useful ideas, so it is not in your best interest to help them avoid their epic fail.
I would rather play Dwarf Fortress anyway.
Posted by: matthew.james.neil
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July 9, 2010 1:08 PM
What Dae said @ 68.
This should get an update, because that news is almost as amazing as the initial idea. I don't play any Blizzard games, but I'm now tempted to because of their attention to their customers (though it really should have dawned on them without help how utterly stupid an idea it was to begin with).
Posted by: Dae
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July 9, 2010 1:15 PM
matthew.james.neil #70 -
This is a bit of a special case; I'm pretty sure a gaming playerbase hasn't reacted this unanimously and strongly to an announced decision by a company since the deal with EA planning to put horribly invasive piracy protection on Spore. But yes, they definitely do listen.
Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 1:20 PM
This link might have been posted before, if it has, I'm sorry.
Though I do think this type of rebuttal was probably the most effective in getting Blizzard to rethink their strategy.
http://asnowstormbyanyothername.blogspot.com/
Whatever it was, playerbase complaints or actions from bloggers like this, I'm still impressed Blizzard turned around so quickly.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp
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July 9, 2010 1:29 PM
Star Wars Galaxies NGE was pretty damn bad.
Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/NSksF7covdkMhmYSv7X07qX0KSgozEz5eD2W#5ee71
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July 9, 2010 1:33 PM
@12
Depending on where I am and what I am doing I will often just use my first name in meat space. People have to call me something and it would get really confusing if my friends called me one name and everyone else called me another name. Online I just set them up as two separate identities.
Posted by: subanark
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July 9, 2010 1:53 PM
@70
If you looked at the official forums, the annoucement topic generated over 10,000 posts in a single day. Only players who are active paying members can post on that forum too. It caused about 3 times as much volumn of posts than the most talked about topics.
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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July 9, 2010 2:11 PM
The idea itself was quite spectacularly bad, but I have to hand it to Blizzard; they did listen to their fan base in the end. They took the concerns of vulnerable groups seriously, and that is to be applauded.
Looks like the '800 pound gorilla' had a fire extinguisher ready to hand, and a safety net to fall into...
Posted by: MosesZD
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July 9, 2010 2:16 PM
Anonymity is very important, especially to girl gamers. Something my daughter didn't understand and now gets a lot of crap because people know she's a girl:
They give her a lot of crap (i.e. she's a fat, ugly skank...) because I won't let her post pictures. Claude (a gamer we knew) is still bugging her years later for her picture on MSN even though he hasn't played Mabi for nearly two years...
If she posts on the forums, she's an attention whore. If she argues, she's "shrill" and "emo." If she's right, she's a "bitch" or a "cunt" or a "whore."
Nobody believes she's a power-player and can solo virtually every instance in the game. They do believe that she's incapable. Even though she's Rank 1 (highest possible) in every magic and many melee and archery skills...
Nobody believes she earns all those millions by herself, it must have been me (I used to play, too) and I just "gave" her all those millions. (I did give her 12 million, but she's still got all that in reserve on my old account.)
The worst of the misanthropes try to manipulate their characters into the appearance of "raping" her. Sometimes, when she sits, they put their crotches in her face and act like they're enjoying the "cybering." Or they try to get her to sit in their laps.
If she gets on TeamSpeak or Vent the misanthropes will just be un-fucking-believable. She's had to quit guilds and cyber-ban some abusers.
I told her that when she goes to a new game I'll get her a voice program that will deepen her voice so it sounds masculine. Then she can game without that load of crap.
And then we have the whole hacking issue... Once a good hacker gets your name and email, your life is in his/her hands...
Posted by: MosesZD
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July 9, 2010 2:28 PM
Lol. Yeah, I'm at the point that I won't buy anything that Activision gets its nasty little hands on... Nevermind Kotick is an asshole, their products are being rushed out-the-door full of bugs because their business model has gone from "make good product" to "makes lots of money, regardless."
They're the BP of the gaming world...
EA has also gotten that way. If you want a fucking bug-fest that doesn't work, EA's got your game... If you want to spend $49.99 on what is a minor content update (if you can get it to work and it doesn't have some horrific (Spore) copy DRM crap), EA's got your game...
Posted by: catta
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July 9, 2010 2:35 PM
I'm going to hold out on this until it actually *happens*. So far, they intend to do it but it hasn't been implemented, and I very much doubt that it will. That thing about Blizzard's community aspect still holds, which is why I'm not holding my breath for this to actually go through. I'll hold back on the outrage until there's any actual sign of this happening. That said -- @Sath:
No, sorry, that's just frightening. And if you think it's hilarious, especially considering it harmed people who were not in the least bit at fault, then you're a major league douche, end of story. Seriously, the world would be a much better place without 4chan and people who think things like this are hilarious.
Posted by: idlegod
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July 9, 2010 2:35 PM
I think blizzard started with a good idea, and twisted it into something really bad.
Hiding ones characteristics online is basically impossible now, especially with things like Voice and Video chat in game. If you sound "different" (thick gay, hispanic, "black" sounding), then you get harassed.
A better solution would be to police the system. That is, the game owners know the real person who is playing the game (with verifiable info, mainly credit card), then can effectively ban the perpetrators of this kind of harassment garbage. While there is something to say for anonymity (that is, not allowing everyone to personally identify someone), I don't think that it is a silver bullet to not getting harassed.
To put it into perspective, I used to run with a rather, hackerish crowd. One game we would play was to figure out who someone was. We used what I now know is called "information theory". The more information you have, the more likely it is to identify someone. For a bit of a background:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/01/primer-information-theory-and-privacy
Here is where it gets scary. With very little information, we could figure out where they lived, and even as far as their name and address. With their high school mascot, and possibly their graduation year (these are things people freely give up), we could figure out that their school was 1 in maybe a couple hundred in the USA with that mascot (maybe a fox, or cheetah or something). With maybe 100 graduating each year from those schools on average, that gives us a 1 in 10,000 chance, instead of a 1 in a few million. That cuts down the possibilities a lot. If you learned something like they were black, that cuts that number down even further, maybe a 1 in 1000. If you know they are male, its a 1 in 500. If you know their birthmonth, its a 1 in 41 chance. If you know the date, you almost have them nailed, or at least a short enough list that you can brute force it.
Just think about that for a minute. Non-personally identifiable information can ultimately lead to knowing who you are. This idea of anonymity being the way to solve these problems is not a good, or final solution.
Removing the trolls is a far better option. If you can stop the trolls in the first place, chances are you will be stopping that same immature person from doing something worse later on.
Besides, threats of a real, tangible penalty for your actions do have a profound effect on the way people act.
Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
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July 9, 2010 2:37 PM
THat press release read more like "We like money, and we promise we won't do whatever it is you people are over-reacting to again if you keep giving us more" to me.Posted by: idlegod
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July 9, 2010 2:44 PM
@MosesZD - #77
Welcome to the internet. Thats more or less par for the course. It sucks. You can be right, regardless of sex, and still be called all of those things, or worse. Just because they latch onto one specific personal characteristic doesn't mean there is something special about it. Its why I stopped posting on forums. The internet is full of trolls, and the way to deal with it isn't to change yourself (or attempt to hide oneself), its to deal with the actual troll problem. Otherwise the trolls win.
Posted by: Personal SinR
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July 9, 2010 2:44 PM
Dammit, I was actually really interested in seeing how this was going to play out.
Posted by: Deviant One
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July 9, 2010 2:52 PM
Official (Blue) post up today, and there was much rejoicing.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=25968987278&sid=1
I think it's over! They've rescinded the decision to use real names on the forums. Money quote:
Posted by: Deviant One
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July 9, 2010 2:55 PM
Note to self: next time, refresh before posting, because you were reading another site.
Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
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July 9, 2010 3:00 PM
I've pretended to be male on the internet to get away from having anti male bullshit like that used on me.It worked.
You're an idiot if you think the two experiences are remotely the same.
Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau
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July 9, 2010 3:22 PM
Yep. I suggest all men who think this treat themselves to posting for a few months under a female name.
It is amazing the difference I have seen.
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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July 9, 2010 3:22 PM
Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom @ 81;
Fair point. It has occurred to me that the logic may have been something along the lines of;
"Eeep! We are going to lose subscribers, and we like money. Lovely, lovely money... (Homer drooling sound)
Double eeep! We are about to release a new title that is very important to the studio, and we don't want the launch over-shadowed by this controversy."
While their action is most likely not prompted by a well developed social conscience, at least their desire to project the appearance of being a company of 'good guys/girls' has prompted them to take the correct action, albeit for an avaricious reason.
Posted by: idlegod
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July 9, 2010 3:25 PM
Posted by: idlegod
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July 9, 2010 3:28 PM
Damnit, I botched that post... The sub-block is what I wrote... I suck.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp
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July 9, 2010 3:29 PM
idlegod #82
This should be good.
Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau
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July 9, 2010 3:32 PM
If you are a female this may already be your whole life. The simplest solution is often just not to interact at all, really.
No, I can not fight of an entire hoard of trolls. Knowing that they may assault my loved ones IRL, or rape me, or kill my dog, or send pictures of me to my employers, etc. makes me say "hey... it's not worth dealing with that" and move on.
You sound like some one who's never had some one try to kill you.
Congratulations!
You are talking to some one who has.
There are laws against that too, but it doesn't keep it from happening to you and it doesn't mean you can stop it if it's going to either.
That's reality.
You should be able to control how much risk you take. End of story.
If you are a minority, you are taking more risk by default.
Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau
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July 9, 2010 3:37 PM
By the way this is not limited to this game as a risk. I used to post on a primarily female message board where there was a sort of trade system. Many people had access to each others addresses. Every once in a while though you would get some one who psychotically posted the address, work info, etc. of some one... even going so far to call their work office, husband, kids at school.
When random psychos let you know they're touching your whole life it is scary and threatening.
Personally, I'm quite open. It's a risk I'm *taking* but that's the point. I'm getting a choice in the matter beyond just not posting (ie. not existing on the internet at all) or facing harassment.
Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 3:38 PM
@79
You're misunderstanding me, and re-reading my post, it's my fault.
The end result isn't hilarious. The threads that it occur in are. Watching hundreds of blood-thirsty trolls ranting and raving about how many pizzas they're going to send, and about how "they should've never came to our part of town" and the like, it's all just hilarious. Yeah, the mentality behind it is frightening, but watching it happen, the self-importance, the justification, it's all so...insane.
I don't know, maybe I am a douche for thinking that the idea of anonymous trolls scurrying about hurriedly to photoshop pictures, or send as many pizzas as they can (tasks of immense importance to them) is hilarious. Maybe it's the mental image I attach to it, maybe I'm just not a very nice person.
Then again, I'm justifying myself to someone who is saying that the world would be better off without me, based on a badly-worded and vague statement on the internet. I think that way of thinking might just be as dangerous as that of the people on 4chan. Extremes are fun!
Posted by: azinyk
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July 9, 2010 3:47 PM
PZ Myers wrote: "If it's not a problem for users, why should employees get an exemption?"
It's because customers have the power of voluntary association - they can leave any time they want. Employees may be stuck in their jobs because of a bad economy, the need for health insurance, car payments, etc. In other words, they can't leave just because they don't like the policy.
This is the same reason it was legal for the government to ban smoking in private businesses: customers could choose a non-smoking business if they wanted to, but employees might be "forced" to breathe smoke. So for the employee's sake, you can make stronger rules.
Posted by: Sath
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July 9, 2010 3:47 PM
@93
I think one of the most dangerous situations for people on the internet, not just women, can be group therapy sites, or sites similar to what you've described, that aren't properly secured.
I have no idea what the security was like on that site, so I can't speak directly to it, but I have seen other situations where forums are accessible by anyone who wants to create an account, or just by clicking an email link.
Honestly, a site like that should have at least IP verification associated with the ability to view the content. Or maybe a bit more succinctly, if you're going to host a site like that, all content should be blocked pre-registration, and registration should come only after the IP address that the user is attempting to register from has been verified.
Group talk/therapy sites are of vital importance in this day and age, but they're also very vulnerable in some situations - especially given certain topics of conversation. IP verification, registration, passwords, background checks, etc, can all be gotten around if you know what you're doing - but it's an added level of security that may help keep out your Joe Schmoe abusers (or whatnot).
It might be a good idea, if you're still in contact with them, to open a dialog about their resources. A lack of security can put a lot of well-meaning people in danger.
Posted by: idlegod
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July 9, 2010 3:48 PM
Ol'Greg
I wasn't trying to say one should personally try and fight the trolls. Blizzard was trying to fight the trolls. Granted, in a particularly bad approach, but still a try.
Read my other post about information theory. Understand that with information that is seemingly innocuous, you can figure out a lot about an individual. Hiding ones name is merely another hurdle for them to overcome.
And I'm not trying to excuse anyones behaviour. Its still unacceptable to threaten anyones life, or rape, etc. I'm also not trying to say that it doesn't happen. I have seen it happen first hand (not rape or attempted murder, but people being harassed IRL via an anonamized identity of the victim).
I am merely attempting to classify the problem better. If we just write all of these problems off as sexist pigs, then we can never hope to solve the problem. If you cannot accurately classify the problem, then you cannot possibly solve the problem.
Yes, there are real sexists, and real assholes, but you don't stop them by just running away. We lock people in jail who attempt to murder people. The same goes for those trolls. You segment them from the population. You protect the larger population from the vitriol of the horrible people.
The majority of people are good, decent, and non-troll. But you don't make the larger segments hide who they are.
Your argument is similar to saying that gays shouldn't really show who they are, instead they should just hide and pretend to be straight. I don't accept that anyone should hide who they are. I will not accept trolls doing the same thing to anyone.
Posted by: Classical Cipher
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July 9, 2010 3:54 PM
No, it absolutely is not, and Ol'Greg would never fucking say anything like that. I direct you here: What the argument is saying is closer to the argument that people should have the choice of when and whether to out themselves, and that forcing someone to be out may well constitute forcing them to put themselves in danger. Which is true. Regardless of how wrong the people who would hurt or harass them are, people should be able to control whether they take the risk of being known as a potential victim of that harassment.Posted by: idlegod
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July 9, 2010 4:01 PM
@96 - Sath
I know some people who have targeted similar sites. There wasn't a general hatred by some trolls, they just saw it as a target to harass people and get a rise out of them. Ultimately its one of the many reasons I left one specific group of highly computer literate people. They did this kind of stuff fairly regularly. It rather disgusted me, so I left them.
Attacking people while they are in a vulnerable place is utterly despicable. Attacking anyone specifically for something they are is just as bad.
I ended up getting a bunch of tampons and other such "freebies" online, addressed to my name mixed with my parents names. I was properly anonamized, no personal information posted online, but just from the chat logs they had of me, they found my full address and information about me.
Granted, thats an anomaly. Most trolls are not that good at finding that information, but they can if they are resourceful.
One site they had the most trouble getting in to was a small site that had pre-authorization only. You would have to be manually approved based on your application to be part of the site. They didn't collect, and deleted, any private information that was on their site.
Thats why I think the best bet is anti-troll.
Posted by: Utakata
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July 9, 2010 4:10 PM
What Deviant One @ 84 said.
...but my rejoicing is muted by the fact that Real ID is still their. And Blizz is planning to expand it in other ways. *Looks at the Trade Channel*
But I am not going to suspend my account for now; but I have put Blizz is on prohbation instead. That is, until they do something stupid again...inwhich I'll leave for good.
Posted by: idlegod
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July 9, 2010 4:15 PM
#98 - Angel Kaida
Relax, thats not what I said. Its an analogy.
I'm not saying that one shouldn't have that type of control. What I'm saying is that there are better ways to deal with the problem of harassment then hiding. People should be allowed to hide from other players, but should be able to have some recourse if they want to be themselves. Just relying on hiding never gets any progress made, but having recourse against them does.
What I'm saying is that you shouldn't HAVE to hide.
Posted by: gettingfree
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July 9, 2010 4:25 PM
@ #100
I feel the same way. I am already thinking about checking out other MMOs because I still think this RealID thing could easily go somewhere I am unwilling to follow.
Posted by: Keren Embar
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July 9, 2010 5:00 PM
#100 is right.
they did not appologize and prmise never to do it again. they just put it on hold for the whole thing to cool off for a while. they still have aspirations for the basic concept they have been cooking for the past year and it is not in favor of the player's civil rights.
Posted by: Rob
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July 9, 2010 5:15 PM
I suspect post #3 had the most relevant thing to say on this: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/zeroday/2010/07/07/is-korean-law-driving-policy-at-blizzard/
While there's a lot of crying out about how completely stupid this is (and I can't disagree), it may be entirely due to a short-sighted attempt to comply with Korean law rather than malice or greed. If #84 is right, they may have decided the non-Korean reaction wasn't worth it, but as it stands Blizzard will now have to have a fork of their forum software for Korea only, or they'll simply have to ban Koreans from using the forums.
Posted by: ckitching
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July 9, 2010 6:15 PM
You might think that would be true, but it isn't. I was playing with a woman who had to go through the trouble of paying to change all her character names because an ex wouldn't give up. The guy even harassed every player in the guild she was in, trying to get her to talk to him. You don't know how crazy people can be.
Posted by: Paul
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July 9, 2010 7:22 PM
If you're playing WoW, changing names doesn't remove you from people's friends lists. Their entry is updated to contain your changed name, along with any notes that you stored to help you remember the person behind the character.
Convenient, huh?
Posted by: Paul
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July 9, 2010 7:25 PM
If you're playing WoW, changing names doesn't remove you from people's friends lists. Their entry is updated to contain your changed name, along with any notes that
youthey stored to helpyouthem remember the person behind the character.Posted by: SaintStephen
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July 9, 2010 7:58 PM
Yes, Professor Myers, you even showed us where you live! (Sorry folks, I ain't tellin'.)But do you remember that tall frozen snowman that appeared one day on your front lawn? That was me, attempting to make a sacred pilgrimmage to your house, so that I could offer up smoked mussels to the giant octopus god. Hypothermia is an art form in Minnesota, y'all.
I got better when the spring thaw came, but I think you were in Ireland at that point...
Give me the hell fires of Tucson, any day of the week.
Posted by: jpkuhn
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July 9, 2010 10:58 PM
They've decided to cancel the whole thing:
(From mmo-champion.com, pretty much the primary WoW fan site)
Hello everyone,
I'd like to take some time to speak with all of you regarding our desire to make the Blizzard forums a better place for players to discuss our games. We've been constantly monitoring the feedback you've given us, as well as internally discussing your concerns about the use of real names on our forums. As a result of those discussions, we've decided at this time that real names will not be required for posting on official Blizzard forums.
It's important to note that we still remain committed to improving our forums. Our efforts are driven 100% by the desire to find ways to make our community areas more welcoming for players and encourage more constructive conversations about our games. We will still move forward with new forum features such as conversation threading, the ability to rate posts up or down, improved search functionality, and more. However, when we launch the new StarCraft II forums that include these new features, you will be posting by your StarCraft II Battle.net character name + character code, not your real name. The upgraded World of Warcraft forums with these new features will launch close to the release of Cataclysm, and also will not require your real name.
I want to make sure it's clear that our plans for the forums are completely separate from our plans for the optional in-game Real ID system now live with World of Warcraft and launching soon with StarCraft II. We believe that the powerful communications functionality enabled by Real ID, such as cross-game and cross-realm chat, make Battle.net a great place for players to stay connected to real-life friends and family while playing Blizzard games. And of course, you'll still be able to keep your relationships at the anonymous, character level if you so choose when you communicate with other players in game. Over time, we will continue to evolve Real ID on Battle.net to add new and exciting functionality within our games for players who decide to use the feature.
In closing, I want to point out that our connection with our community has always been and will always be extremely important to us. We strongly believe that Every Voice Matters, ( http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/about/mission.html ) and we feel fortunate to have a community that cares so passionately about our games. We will always appreciate the feedback and support of our players, which has been a key to Blizzard's success from the beginning.
Mike Morhaime
CEO & Cofounder
Blizzard Entertainment
Posted by: Keren Embar
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July 9, 2010 11:40 PM
@ #109
no they did not actually canceled. they just postponed.
the leading phrase "at this time" is highly suspicious and this letter is just pretty words.
they made no promises, no vows, no binding contract to safe-keep the rights of the users.
I hope the reason they did not properly back down is internal politics but the right intention is there. too bad this hope is not supported by the letter.
Posted by: Utakata
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July 9, 2010 11:55 PM
For a minute there jpkuhn @ 109, my brain farted and I thought a Blue was actually posting in Pharyngular...then I realized you where Copy & Pasting that official announcement. O.O
...and what Keren Embar @ 109 said.
And off to the side...when my Orc Hunter hits Strangelthorn, I might tame a white Gorilla for my combat pet and name it SaintStephen. :)
Posted by: latsot
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July 10, 2010 3:05 AM
People are more likely to cause harm to others who piss them off on a forum than someone chosen at random from the phone book. Forums are places where opinions differ greatly and tensions run high. Some people get AMAZINGLY annoyed at forum comments. There've been a couple of brief episodes where someone I pissed off followed me about on different forums making insulting comments about me until they got banned. If my name had been easily available, I have little doubt that things could have got out of hand.
On another occasion, someone wrote to the VC of my university complaining about me. This wasn't even retaliation for something I'd done: the guy was so deranged that he'd mistaken me for the OP.
Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
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July 10, 2010 4:06 AM
If all you're advocating is banning people who are trolls hiding behind anonymity, then what you're really asking is for Blizzard to be more responsive to complaints about truly problematic consumers, not for women to have to be outed. That doesn't require a change from the current system, only from the current policy.Posted by: Mr.Nerdz
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July 10, 2010 4:54 AM
Aye, same Utakata. I think we can all agree that this was one experiment too far, and a rather nice show of how the customer can greatly influence the big company. It's sad that quite a few people have left over it, and that there's still the risk of trouble in the future, but this experiment has come up with a different result- That people respect privacy above all else, people *will* fight for that right, even if it doesn't directly affect them, and that even the big company players can be dissuaded by the voice of the people.
Posted by: itsgood2bchildfree
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July 10, 2010 10:16 AM
I just read that Blizzard is reneging on the demand that users be required to use their real names (which I think is a good thing), but it still doesn't change my opinion of Warcraft, or online MMORPGs or whatever they're called. I work part-time in a Wal-Mart electronics department and we sell dozens of Warcraft software bundles and 60 day memberships every day. The sad thing, in my opinion, is how many older adults are buying them, not just the pimply teenagers and college kids. You have the typical wife-beater-wearing unshaven guy holding his nearly-naked kid like a bag of sugar, the 30-something virgin who empties his paycheck every week on video games, and the guy with the desperate wife who is complaining that she is a gaming widow even as she watches her bald, pot-bellied husband ante-up for 60 more days of Warcraft, blowing sorely-needed food and clothing money.
It really is sad that an entire generation of men choose to escape into a virtual world where they can kill, kill, kill with impunity. I can see by how fat and disgusting our customers are that these games have replaced the normal male pastimes like getting out into the real world to play sports or just exercise by doing household repairs and chores. And one day social services is going to have to deal with an epidemic, if it hasn't already arrived, of abusive husbands who would rather play Red Dead Redemption than take on their responsibilities. I just don't think it's a good thing for families that fathers get as obsessed with their video games as the kids.
I find that once you start delving into science the real world is way more fascinating and complex and challenging than any vicarious CGI killing spree. I was stunned to see how many people argue about Warcraft on their forums. Never has the phrase "get a life" been more appropriate.
Posted by: Keren Embar
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July 10, 2010 10:47 AM
@#114
well, by your own admission- you are clueless about what really goes on in these games and your sole source of information are your prejudices and a certain selected costumer cross section analysis in your shop. not very scientific or actually informed. judging people by how they look during the short duration they visit your shop is not a good scientific methodology and your potential statistics are probably dismally biased.
I agree with your view about science and the wonderful world we live in. it is indeed wonderful and we enjoy it greatly.
this subjective observation has nothing to do with they way people choose to spend their money and free time and their reasons to do so.
I honestly suggest you think about this some more.
Posted by: CW
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July 10, 2010 12:46 PM
This is pretty much all the same as how the Facebook forced lack of privacy controls worked.
Steamroller forth, remove the opt-out, then *slightly* increace privacy options, let the pissants claim a "victory".
As with this, I'm slightly pleased, but they're going to continue making these changes that have fuck-all to do with videogames and everything to do with monetization of me and my real name and whatever information they can cull from my billing. Targeted battle.net ads, the ability for any people to search for me, all that fun stuff.
This is not goddamned social networking, it's a videogame. I don't want to play on your farmville, I sure as hell don't want to help you mine for minerals or some stupid vespene gas achievement.
Posted by: CW
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July 10, 2010 12:50 PM
And holy moley am I sick of explaining why this is a bad idea in every thread.
Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
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July 10, 2010 3:40 PM
I find it hilarious that #115 is posting in a thread with a bunch of women complaining about how they're going to be treated on WoW in the future, to post a rant on how all WoW players are socially inept men.
Posted by: CW
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July 10, 2010 6:56 PM
@119 Oh gosh yes.
It reminds me of a friend of mine, she had a kid, and the baby's father is a deadbeat, never got steady work, smoked tons of pot and played MMOs obsessively.
She dumped him after years of do-nothing, then proceeded to date a new guy, who played WoW, she got an account, and even her kid had an account. They all played it because it was something cheap they all could do together.
Well, until this RealID crap happened and they deleted their accounts, at least.
@115: Stop projecting your insecurities and classist tripe on others. You may just be here because you're an atheist, but-
gosh, it must be impossible to do both. People have been role-playing and storytelling since the beginning of time. They will continue to do so in the future.