Pharyngula

Posted by: alysonmiers | July 18, 2010 2:35 PM

What a creepy video to make with such a pretty baby.

Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 18, 2010 2:57 PM

It's, it's just beautiful.

Imagine how much worse it would be to think that you evolved from a monkey, and that the problems we have are the result of co-evolving parasites, predators, and a world simply not designed for us.

Pain and misery are instead come from heaven. I see the light, hallejuah.

Glen Davidson

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | July 18, 2010 3:08 PM

First of all, I must also *squeal* about the yummy--I mean adorable--baby. I could just eat it up with a spoon.

The bit about the tithe hit me hard. My father was a die-hard tither--tithed off his gross, not his net pay. Twenty years he gave to the same church, where we (all four of us kids) also went to the school. Which he also paid for. He worked there the last year or so of his life, and they came through for him in one big way: his life insurance policy from his former job had lapsed just months before he got diagnosed, and the church bought a blanket policy, insuring every employee there, so that he could be covered. It was a genuinely noble thing to do.

My mother recently informed me that she tithed off the life insurance check.

Posted by: Galactus35 | July 18, 2010 3:12 PM

Christians accuse us of being cynical but we're not the ones basting our kids brains in guilt and persecution fantasies before they can even walk.

Posted by: Big Boss | July 18, 2010 3:24 PM

Glen,

Your comment underscores a fundamental flaw in your understanding of evolution.

Evolution does not state that humans "evolved from monkeys." Rather, it posits that humans and monkeys share a common ancestor.

I challenge you to come to a complete comprehension of evolution before you criticize it.

Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | July 18, 2010 3:30 PM

That is pretty much religion all over. Corrupt the minds of children with an unjustifiable burdern of guilt for events that mostly never occurred or alternatively that they cannot be rationally held accountable for. When they are desperate for forgiveness, offer them the illusion of same, all for the low, low price of lifelong servitude and prostration before a theistic mafia.

Of course, difference or, even worse, dissent are anathema to this cosy little grift. As a result, any who do not believe, or who question your authority in any way, must be destroyed. If such destruction is impractical, then marginalisation and disenfranchisement will have to suffice...

The true brilliance of the video for me was the juxtaposition of the cute baby and the maternal intonation of the woman's voice with the grotesquery of the message. This elegantly captures another important element of christianity; preach the most abominable, dominionist evil, and call it virtue.

Posted by: Titus Flavius Vespasianus | July 18, 2010 3:36 PM

I'm the baby. I am very scared of that god, please take him away from me; please, tell me it's not real!!!

Posted by: jcmartz.myopenid.com | July 18, 2010 3:37 PM

But with a few phrase and word changes it would equally apply to any religion.

Posted by: Kawa | July 18, 2010 3:38 PM

Glen usually does strikes me as sarcastic.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | July 18, 2010 3:55 PM

Poe's law, illustrated beautifully by Glen. You really can't tell if you don't already know.

Posted by: Ternon | July 18, 2010 3:59 PM

If any video deserves to go viral this is the one.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | July 18, 2010 4:07 PM

Awww, cutest baby! Little tiny sweet thing, lick-em-up skin and drool-wet lips! Ohhh, just the tenderest thing...

Fucking goddamned auto-mother responses anyway.

And then we get to channel the evil and lay that on the naked baby instead of a soft blankie. Sheesh. The horror, the horror.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | July 18, 2010 4:12 PM

Several thousand years ago two people "sinned" and, as a result, two thousand years ago someone else had to die. How does either event have anything to do with me? I had no control over either of them so why should I be affected in any way?

If you look at Christianity it doesn't even make sense as a metaphor.

Posted by: Shplane, some shit in french | July 18, 2010 4:17 PM

#24

Fear? I don't see any inordinate amount of fear there. All I see is honesty.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawm4CYGXi1n4Armyc3H5WH0I3OSlKZ1Zvc4 | July 18, 2010 4:18 PM

Isn't "Thinking Atheist" redundant?

Posted by: snurp | July 18, 2010 4:37 PM

Big Boss @9

Why wouldn't the members of that common ancestral catarrhine group be called monkeys? I have never gotten this.

Posted by: Forbidden Snowflake | July 18, 2010 4:57 PM

Using exaggeration or even irony to ridicule religion simply does not work

Citation needed.

Isn't "Thinking Atheist" redundant?

No, it isn't. Some were fortunate enough not to be brainwashed with religion from childhood, and, consequentially, didn't need to think their ways out of it.

Posted by: Frank b | July 18, 2010 5:10 PM

so we can know, sorry

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/Iv5nEZhh1NqPPmx3lYrN0OKSZoNeotqV0eBwHWE-#ceecc | July 18, 2010 5:32 PM

Well done. This fits neatly with Dawkins' claim that much religious 'education' is child abuse.

Posted by: JSW | July 18, 2010 5:48 PM

To Shplane @20:

I see it another way: I look at all the things we've managed to accomplish despite having such a huge, disgusting parasite as religion infecting our thinking and imagine the things we will be able to do once we're finally free of it.

Posted by: raven | July 18, 2010 6:12 PM

Sidebar random quote:

If God's aim is to maximize acceptance of Him and intense suffering brings about acceptance, then why is there so relatively little suffering in some countries and times? Surely God could have indirectly brought about more suffering and increased acceptance. For example, in the US suffering is relatively low in comparison to many Third World countries. Surely God could have arranged things to increase suffering and increase acceptance of God in the US. For example, hurricanes, earthquakes, draughts, epidemics, and severe economic depression would cause much suffering and, if Craig is right, increase acceptance. An all powerful God surely could have brought these things about.

Michael Martin, "Human Suffering and the Acceptance of God"

For another pernicious xian doctrine, the random quote had the above. It must be a miracle, LOL.

Not sure what sects actually believe that, "intense suffering brings about acceptance [of god]. Might be a Catholic thing, what Mother Theresa said once.

Doesn't look like too many actually believe it though. If they did, the holiest people would be those who go around making other people miserable by cutting brake lines and mining bridges and parks. Hmmmm, what do they teach ministers an priests in seminary, how to make people miserable to "maximize acceptance of god"?

Posted by: Matrim | July 18, 2010 6:21 PM

"Evolution does not state that humans "evolved from monkeys." Rather, it posits that humans and monkeys share a common ancestor"

Technically we both statements are true: we evolved from basal monkeys and stare a common ancestor with extant monkeys. That's one of the things that really annoys me about creationist bullshit...they're taking a fundamentally true statement (that we evolved from a form of monkey, among other forms both older and younger) and using it is a way that it's not intended (using the term monkey to refer to extant monkeys that we share an extinct monkey ancestor with).

Posted by: Nicol | July 18, 2010 6:49 PM

I think the only way to make sense of religion is to consider it in light of Pavlov's dogs -- you learn to associate relief and happiness with certain phrases or ideas, whether the actual concepts make sense or not. So, for example, finding friends in a congregation makes you feel good, but then you're told that that sense of deep community is only brought on through this "true" religion, because it is you getting closer to god. And of course, the only reason you get to be close to god is because he had his only son killed. If you actually THINK about that progression, it doesn't make sense, but if you are trained to associate the two things, then it's not such a logical leap.

I am, however, glad that there are so many atheists out there who have reasoned themselves out of these beliefs, especially the really fundamentalist ones, and are doing better for it. It says a lot about the power of the human mind when used properly.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 18, 2010 7:14 PM

Glen,

Your comment underscores a fundamental flaw in your understanding of evolution.

Evolution does not state that humans "evolved from monkeys." Rather, it posits that humans and monkeys share a common ancestor.

I challenge you to come to a complete comprehension of evolution before you criticize it.

and........... fail

Posted by: tonysidaway | July 18, 2010 7:50 PM

This is a film that should be seen widely. It raises problems that speak to the credibility of Christianity, in a way that is accessible to any loving parent.

Those problems aren't new and they should all be familiar to any intelligent Christian. The presentation is powerful, though, and presents the absurdity and the horror very well.

Posted by: RamblinDude | July 18, 2010 8:06 PM

I don't know what's more depressing, the poignancy with which this video highlights the sheer madness of Christian fundamentalism, or the fact that I already know the arguments that Christian fundamentalists will use to rebut it. Oh, and the way they will shake their heads in sadness like Roma Downey at those who don’t understand God’s love

Posted by: Christy | July 18, 2010 9:07 PM

@SteveM:
I pretty much agree with you - IME seeking forgiveness for "killing Christ" is not emphasized for most Christians. However, I do recall feeling resentful every spring when we (Catholic) parishioners were made to read out the part of the crowd calling for Jesus to be crucified on Good Friday. Even as a kid, I was like, "WTF, I never did anything to him!"

Anyway, hearing the opening lines, juxtaposed with that beautiful baby, just hurt my heart. The doctrine of original sin is so disgusting I can't come up with an adequate adjective for it. It literally nauseates me.

I wish I could share this via Facebook without destroying many relationships.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawm4CYGXi1n4Armyc3H5WH0I3OSlKZ1Zvc4 | July 18, 2010 10:05 PM

@33

Regarding my original post:

Isn't "Thinking Atheist" redundant?

You replied:
No, it isn't. Some were fortunate enough not to be brainwashed with religion from childhood, and, consequentially, didn't need to think their ways out of it.

I disagree. Growing up in northern Ontario I was 'blessed' to have hockey practice every Sunday morning, and so got out of church (not sure I would have been forced to go anyways, but that is beside the point). However, despite growing up in an essentially unreligious home, Christian thought is so pervasive in our culture that one cannot hope to miss it completely. Certainly it is easier for people in our situation to intellectually dismiss religion, however there is some contemplation involved.

Posted by: Doktor Zoom | July 18, 2010 11:19 PM

Nauseating. I much prefer this one:

"Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies--God damn it, you've got to be kind."

Posted by: Eris | July 18, 2010 11:47 PM

I wish I could show that video to every Christian in the world and say "this is how we atheists see you". Maybe it would make them wake up to how sick their teachings are. On the other hand, my wife sitting across the room saw the video and thought that it was made _by_ Christians. Perhaps actual Christians would simply see no problem with anything in that video. Sad.

Posted by: jafafahots | July 19, 2010 1:07 AM

Cripes, someone say something.

It makes me paranoid when my comment kills a thread.

Posted by: Claudia | July 19, 2010 3:35 AM

I agree that children do as children see, but there is always a point in ones life (a moratorium) where one must find ones self. This is proven by athiest's with christian parents. They may have been taught to do certain things and think certain ways, but they went against that. Some never enter moratorium and some never leave, but I'm sure we all know this.
The strict rules depicted in this seemingly hypnotic video are an exaggeration of a widely taught truth. I don't think the video would be shown in a church because of this exaggeration. The video is inconspicuously sarcastic throughout as well. "(paraphrased) God loves you, but will never show you his face. You can pray, but you will never audibly hear answers. If you live your entire life according to these rules, you are allowed to worship him forever..."
The truth I have come to know is this. There is a God. He loves me unconditionally. He is always there to protect, love, and listen. He guides me in the right path and teaches me his love along the way.
I think it's harder to believe that there is Satan. A thing that is so evil, he wants to separate a father from all his children...so evil that he would rather the world be filled with hate for the one who loves us. So evil, that he would dare to manipulate a human when they are most vulnerable into thinking that he loves more...that...that is much much harder to believe.
But believing that there is a God who loves me?...that's pretty simple. pretty nice. pretty true.
If we evolved from monkeys...there wouldn't be any monkeys...
Things evolve...but only slightly and in order to adapt to a new surrounding...only what's needed.

Posted by: raven | July 19, 2010 3:45 AM

Claudia the creationist:

If we evolved from monkeys...there wouldn't be any monkeys...
Things evolve...but only slightly and in order to adapt to a new surrounding...only what's needed.

If Protestants evolved from Catholics, why are there still Catholics?

Creationism is a lie. The earth is 4.7 billion years old and Noah never had a boatload full of dinosaurs.

If satan is the fathr of lies, you are worshipping him. But it is a lot simpler. You are merely repeating some other human's lies. If you had been raised Hindu, you would be a Hindu.

I agree that children do as children see, but there is always a point in ones life (a moratorium) where one must find ones self.

So what? It happens sometimes but not always. Most of of us are ex-Xians. It obviously hasn't happened to you yet.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | July 19, 2010 3:57 AM

If we evolved from monkeys...there wouldn't be any monkeys... Things evolve...but only slightly and in order to adapt to a new surrounding...only what's needed.

Stupid. We evolved with modern monkeys from a recent common monkey ancestor. And small evolutionary changes leads to bigger evolutionary changes. You're assuming we that we go from monkey to *BAM* humans like were pokemons. It's a common misconception that can be remedied through actually studying evolution.

Posted by: Brian, Defender of Tone Trolls | July 19, 2010 4:29 AM

@Claudia.

You focus on the love aspect of God and that is positive; but what about hell? How do you explain that?

It's scriptural; widely believed in both catholic and protestant circles; and according to some theologians the logical outcome of a God that is infinite. An infinite God requires infinite justice. Are you absolutely sure your version of Christianity is the right one?

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | July 19, 2010 4:57 AM

If we evolved from monkeys...there wouldn't be any monkeys...

Aaaaaaarrrrrrggghhhh.

Please tell me you're a Poe... I don't think I've ever seen the above argument deployed except as a joke.

Posted by: Rorschach | July 19, 2010 5:25 AM

If we evolved from monkeys...there wouldn't be any monkeys

Wait, someone actually said that ??

Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Posted by: Moveable Type | July 19, 2010 6:09 AM

Aaron @ 56

Please read Bart Ehrman, 'Misquoting Jesus', or indeed any of his book, but that is probably the best one to begin with. Then see the light shine!! The light of day that is.

Posted by: james.schumann | July 19, 2010 7:23 AM

I am sad that this is how many Christians portray and believe of Christianity. These people should be ridiculed. But I hope that's not where it ends. I hope you also realize that there are better Christians than this, and there's really something here that needs to be understood before it's all thrown out the window. There are Christians who hear what you say, and many times they agree, and they do understand your position. What many Christians don't see is the same kind of understanding shown to them. At they very least, they don't deserve to be ridiculed. They're not responsible for the sins of those who misrepresent them.

Posted by: John Morales | July 19, 2010 7:30 AM

James Schumann

There are Christians who hear what you say, and many times they agree, and they do understand your position.

Where does one find Christians who agree with atheists that Christianity is a ridiculous and pernicious conceit?

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/084SzO4Lo.EHQlTMacnJmTsZxw--#36bf3 | July 19, 2010 7:35 AM

To me, that really drives home the reality that 2000 years ago, there were these people who imagined themselves to be clued in about the origins of the universe, and ultimately of mankind. Then (time passes...), several thousand years later, there has been not one single revelation that validates that way of thinking. But there are still billions of adherents to it. WTF?!

Religion is a virus of the mind. It's transmitted from host to host via tactics like those this video illustrates.

Whether the message is that you're worthless and will burn in hell unless you accept the invisible sky fairy, or that you'll burn in hell if you flip on a light switch on Saturday, or that you'll burn in hell if you don't kill infidels, it's fucked up.

Religion is fucked up. It's just plain fucked up. Even if a particular set of god botherers does genuinely good work (charity, etc.), what's driving them at their core is still fucked up.

It's sad that there are so many people on this planet who won't be good just for the sake of being good. Nope, they need the threat of eternal suffering to keep them in line.

Posted by: Forbidden Snowflake | July 19, 2010 8:11 AM

Googlemess #55:

However, despite growing up in an essentially unreligious home, Christian thought is so pervasive in our culture that one cannot hope to miss it completely.

Your culture inflicts Christianity even on those who come from non-religious homes within it. But there are other cultures, in which the concentration of religion in the environment is low, and the cultural osmotic pressure generated by it is negligible.
I have friends who are "unthinking atheists". That is not to say that they're shallow, but that they simply aren't interested. They weren't exposed to religion as children, thought it strange and silly as teenagers and never felt the need to ponder it much (beyond the occasional "how can people believe that crap?") as adults.
As far as what you say about your own culture goes... I'll just have to take your word for it.

Posted by: Cosmic Snark | July 19, 2010 8:23 AM

^ should say "mind control", not "mid control" in my previous comment.

Posted by: jafafahots | July 19, 2010 9:06 AM

"What many Christians don't see is the same kind of understanding shown to them. "

Oh fucking come off it. Christians don't feel they get understanding?

Our entire political system - every damned last politician... and 99.99% of the media, and virtually all of American culture spends a large deal of its time giving Christians a non-stop handjob.

Christians are catered to, pandered to, sucked up to, stroked, given special consideration and privileges virtually every second of their lives in this country.

If Christians fuck up they're more quickly forgiven. If they lie, cheat or steal, they're more quickly forgiven.

Despite the Constitution forbidding it, the law regularly favors them and supports them over others.

If they victimize others and commit crimes, they're given shorter sentences or paroled sooner.

The reason Christians feel they aren't understood is because like spoiled children who are given every fucking thing they want, it's never enough.

It's pretty fucking obvious even the fucking POPE doesn't feel coddled enough, catered to enough. The fucker acts like he feels pretty damned aggrieved.

Christians do not get to blame non-Christians for symptoms of the disease of Christianity.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawm4CYGXi1n4Armyc3H5WH0I3OSlKZ1Zvc4 | July 19, 2010 9:21 AM

@74

Isn't "Thinking Atheist" redundant?

Two words: Bill Maher.

Agreed. Not all atheists are brilliant. My original post regarded thinking about religion only.

However, working in a research university setting I am happy to say that the atheists I am surrounded by are all a bunch of smartypants.

Posted by: raven | July 19, 2010 10:17 AM

There are Christians who hear what you say, and many times they agree, and they do understand your position.

I'm sure there are a few. So where have they been hiding for the last half century? They are almost mythological by now.

playing the xian persecution card:

What many Christians don't see is the same kind of understanding shown to them.

We understand too well. Most of us are ex-Xians. Where do you think atheists come from and why? Falwell, Hagee, Robertson, Ham, etc.. produce more atheists in a day than Richard Dawkins does in a year.

That is a problem for US Xianity. We see cults based on hate who constantly attack gays, scientists, science, other xian sects, other religions, atheists, democrats, Kenyan born, Moslem terrorists who happen to be president, and on and on. We see xian terrorists assassinating MDs. We see creationists trying illegally to sneak their mythology into our kid's science classes. There are a lot of xian Dominionists who hate the USA, would destroy it, and set up a new Dark Age.

US xianity has been largely taken over by the fundie death cults. We understand them too well. Nihilistic extremists with hate and lies are easy to understand.

Posted by: Griff | July 19, 2010 10:49 AM

*sigh* The other day my mom told me on the phone that she and my dad tried very hard to raise their kids without guilt. The only problem is, they raised us in the Catholic church of the 1970s and 1980s. I don't know if she will ever understand that the only way to raise children without guilt is to raise them free of religion.

The video is downright creepy, and I agree with PZ that it could easily be shown in a number of fundamentalist churches and taken completely seriously. When it comes to people and groups with broken sarcasm meters, fundies top the list.

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/JuNwRu0vvtvEJ_UEOQJNLH4MISqJZw--#beed8 | July 19, 2010 3:16 PM

I know many or most of us are ex-believers, but the comments here are making me wonder whether you all attended nutty fundamentalist churches. I grew up in a fairly mainstream church, pretty conservative, but not militant, and I could never imagine this being accepted in my church or any of the others I visited over the years. A video that says you were born "worthless" and must "apologize for murdering His son Jesus" is pretty much the exact opposite of the message we were given. We were told we had worth, that God loved and cared for us, etc., and that we repented of our own sins, not for "murdering" Jesus; Jesus had sacrificed himself willingly. If you have any sense of perspective, you'd know that that's what millions of Christians hear every week, not the stuff in this video.

Of course I no longer believe these things, but the reason that I became an atheist was more because belief seemed too touch-feely, pie-in-the-sky, head-in-the-sand, out-of-touch baloney. I began to try to take it more seriously, and only then did I realize what it would really mean to believe this stuff. I think that is the real point that this video is trying to make -- what it really means to believe what's in the Bible. But it would never in a million years get shown in a real church, in my opinion.

Posted by: aschimke | July 19, 2010 10:03 PM

One of the main problems I have with Christianity in developed nations is that it is tragically self-centered.

I understand that it feels good to "know" that God loves and protects you. And to some degree, it does seem like you are protected. I'm guessing that if you're posting on this site, you have enough food and water to survive, and you also probably have some type of shelter to live in.

However, there are some tragic, TRAGIC things that happen to Christians all the time, especially in third world countries. Is it part of God's plan that children in undeveloped countries (some of which are Christian) sometimes drink water of such poor quality that they have uncontrollable diarrhea and eventually die of dehydration?

It's very, very hard to believe that God planned for that child such a horrible, undignified death.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | July 19, 2010 10:25 PM

I think it's harder to believe that there is Satan. A thing that is so evil, he wants to separate a father from all his children.

If you're thinking of the person who said, "For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household," (Matthew 10:35), I should let you know his name is not Satan, but Jesus.

Posted by: Claudia | July 19, 2010 11:14 PM

Brian, no...I'm not absolutely sure my "version" of Christianity is the right one, but I do know that it has brought more peace and happiness into my life than any philosophical or physical proof of creation could.
I have had my share of doubts, and no, I'm not at all out of moratorium, but I am quite sure that I'm on my journey through it.
I do apologize for the incredible weak attempt at a comment on evolution. I should have thought that one through.
As for Mathew 10:35, that portion is correct. Those are God's words. They are taken out of context though. This is referencing those who come to believe and those who don't. It is saying that God should be first in one's heart.

Posted by: Aratina Cage | July 19, 2010 11:29 PM

Claudia #101,

Those are God's words.

The words of a character in a fictional story. Nothing more. God is as fictional as Harry Potter.

Posted by: echidna | July 20, 2010 12:23 AM

Claudia:

I do apologize for the incredible weak attempt at a comment on evolution. I should have thought that one through.

Now think through the implications of the fact that you accepted such a ridiculous proposition as true.

Religion encourages people to listen, and accept without question the things they are told from the pulpit. No matter how ridiculous, damaging, or patently false it is. This brings "peace" and "happiness" because you are lulled into not thinking for yourself - and this type of control over people has had nasty consequences in the past. No one expects the Spanish inquisition, the witch-hunts, the purges, the killing of doctors, the harrassing of soldiers' funerals.

Posted by: Aratina Cage | July 20, 2010 12:58 AM

I can't believe Claudia actually said this in all seriousness in #63:

If we evolved from monkeys...there wouldn't be any monkeys...

Still laughing! I hope it goes into FSTDT.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | July 20, 2010 2:27 AM

They are taken out of context though. This is referencing those who come to believe and those who don't. It is saying that God should be first in one's heart.

Not at all. Splitting up families based on who believes and who doesn't. Like God with heaven and hell.

Doesn't seem like you have a problem believing in somebody who separates a father from his children at all.

Let me guess: you're not a biblical literalist. Don't worry; few Christians are.

So, how do you know which things Jesus says are meant to be taken literally and which are to be taken 'metaphorically'? What others say? How you 'feel'? If it's the former, then it's only an accident of history and geography that you didn't write "Many do think Vishnu fictional...it's hard not to". If it's the latter, and you're using some internal compass to guide you, then why bother with the bible at all?

Posted by: John Phillips, FCD | July 20, 2010 3:55 AM

Claudia said

..but his love can be felt by anyone.

As it is based on no evidence whatsoever beyond hearsay it can only be felt by the deluded. If you were talking about feeling such things based on anything but a religion you might be considered a suitable candidate for psychiatric help.

Posted by: kilternkafuffle | July 20, 2010 11:16 PM

Unanswered Christians at a godless blog!!

@Claudia:

It's definitely a challenge trying to figure out what to take literally.

It's an impossible challenge - there is no way of knowing the right answer, every person will come out with their own interpretation. Exactly the same situation with the Koran. Shouldn't "the word of God" have some clarity?? If there are actual rules the creator of the universe wants us to live by, why make it so difficult to figure them out??

The bible is here...it's been here for ages. I think that it is important to study whether one lives by it's word or not.

The Bible is demonstrably written by fallible dessert people. It justifies genocide, racism, sexism, and homophobia. Some word to live by!

Is love considered something one feels? It's the love that's so permanent. You cannot see him or hear him like you do other humans...but his love can be felt by anyone.

Children feel the love of imaginary friends, schizophrenics feel the love of inexistent persons - it doesn't prove anything. Also, do you mean just feeling one with the world, feeling transcendent when you accomplish something, or enjoying others smile? That's just happiness accessible to anyone. Doesn't require a God, certainly doesn't require THE Christian God.

@Cody Miller:
1. Christians vary, and may be you are sensible enough not to abuse your children, but (from personal and others' experiences) the vocal majority focuses on everyone being born into original sin and being guilty and worthless and dirty... and therefore needing salvation or whatnot.
2. Whoa. Where is the connection to #1?? Being fallen and sinful from birth is a pretty nasty thing to claim! That's the point!
If you're going to say that you don't subscribe to the concept of "original sin", you're a poor Christian. Christians have been peddling it for 2 thousand years. Don't lie by saying that that "sin" doesn't matter, by your own theology.

disobedience of those who killed Christ

Um, who did they disobey?? Wasn't getting killed Christ's mission? Get your story straight. This is the sort of logical inconsistency that makes Christianity look like the ridiculous sham it is at every turn.
3.

We are free in Christ, from all guilt and all shame.

I take it you aren't a Catholic?
If you really mean what you just said, you've just sworn off all morality. Among "us" are some murderers, abusers, and liars. They should feel guilt and shame. Otherwise they can kill, assault, and lie and then immediately feel okay with themselves.
Also, do you mean we shouldn't be ashamed about masturbation, homosexuality, casual intercourse? Great news!
When you throw away the nonsense of religion, you feel guilt and shame for your own moral transgressions, but not for simply existing or doing what comes natural without hurting anybody else.

Posted by: Fathawan | July 21, 2010 12:35 AM

I've spent years working around avarage people. Spent years working with young and adult mentaly ill. The Bible was writen by men who claim it to be the words of another man who claims to be the son of GOD. This man who lives a noble "GOOD" life in the words of other men, does things that he knows will break of lead to the breaking or rules/laws of a ruling nation and thus end in his death. Is this the way of a noble forgiving unbelivable person. Or the way or a person completly lacking a solid mental state. Im not sure im guessing thats where Christians "FAITH" some into play. But is faith not just beleving in something u cannot see or touch , Fine line if any between faith and mental instability. Once again not sure i hope someday i will figure it all out probley not though

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawnG39uMFt69kwCKZ8DoxtmMCvmzr5chx94 | July 26, 2010 10:00 AM

More loving?

"You were too worthless to be born. So I killed you when you were still a fetus. But thank you for your stem cells!"