…and this is a 
Queensland is allowing fundamentalist Christians to teach religious instruction classes in the public schools — and, as we might have predicted, they are teaching nonsense.
Students have been told Noah collected dinosaur eggs to bring on the Ark, and Adam and Eve were not eaten by dinosaurs because they were under a protective spell.
Set Free Christian Church's Tim McKenzie said when students questioned him why dinosaur fossils carbon dated as earlier than man, he replied that the great flood must have skewed the data.
A parent of a Year 5 student on the Sunshine Coast said his daughter was ostracised to the library after arguing with her scripture teacher about DNA.
"The scripture teacher told the class that all people were descended from Adam and Eve," he said.
"My daughter rightly pointed out, as I had been teaching her about DNA and science, that 'wouldn't they all be inbred'?
"But the teacher replied that DNA wasn't invented then."
Creationists are crackpots and liars — they simply don't belong at all in positions of responsibility in the public schools, because they are going to intentionally miseducate. What do the education administrators in Queensland say? Why, that students can "opt out" of these classes. That isn't the issue, of course — why are the schools investing scarce resources to give religious extremists and lunatics a platform in the public schools at all?
Politics
Education
Comments
Posted by: Disturbingly Openminded
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August 1, 2010 9:12 AM
Sigh...
Is this an American export?
If so, I apologize to the Aussies for US stupidity.
Posted by: dharmasatya
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August 1, 2010 9:12 AM
...because the only way religion can propagate is for it's adherents to get 'em early, before the reality-based world the rest of us live in begins to erode the wide-eyed ignorance and innocence of children.
Ugh. They're preying on kids in every sense of the word.
Posted by: grudgedk
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August 1, 2010 9:13 AM
I'm stealing that quote. I'm going to use it as the response to any historical question.Posted by: Capital Dan
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August 1, 2010 9:15 AM
Yowza! That's worse than I could have imagined. That goes beyond nonsense into some strange playground of complete and total gibberish, PZ.
Seriously, these teachers (and I use that term extremely loosely) sound like confused toddlers when asked about things like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. They just make things up and hope it sticks.
Posted by: Gordon
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August 1, 2010 9:16 AM
DNA hadnt been invented by the time of Noah? I wonder when creotards think their god ran around installing it? Probably in the time of Jesus. In a miracle that didn't make it into the gospels Jesus did some tech support.
Posted by: Shplane, some shit in french
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August 1, 2010 9:20 AM
#3
"How could the people of Babel possibly build a tower to heaven?"
Gravity wasn't invented then.
"How could god spontaneously create everything from nothing?"
The laws of physics weren't invented then.
"Why wouldn't the animals on Noah's Ark eat each other?"
Predation wasn't invented then.
(This is fun)
Posted by: j-brisby
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August 1, 2010 9:22 AM
"The flood must have skewed the radiometric dates."
My licence can't be expired, officer, your sirens must have skewed the dates.
Posted by: gijoel
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August 1, 2010 9:24 AM
Sigh, once again my state embarrasses me. :(
At #1 No, sad to say we've got enough loons of our own. *cough*Ken Ham*cough*
When I was a teenager I went to one of big religous private schools in Brisbane.
Posted by: godless.biz
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August 1, 2010 9:26 AM
Capital Dan @ #4
To be fair, these are not teachers but lay people who speak to the kids for half an hour a week. Of course, they are still creationist morons sneaking under the radar of "religious instruction" in a supposedly secular country.
Posted by: Cosmic Snark
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August 1, 2010 9:26 AM
I always thought it was a shame Noah had to kill the unicorns for their meat. If Noah had only brought along enough food, today we would have a large and thriving unicorn population that we could poach to extinction for their horns, which of course would have aphrodisiac properties.
Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier
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August 1, 2010 9:27 AM
"Oy, Hovind, we can't carbon date this. There's no fucking carbon in it!"
Posted by: eliterrell
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August 1, 2010 9:28 AM
Supposedly, inbreeding was impossible until the 'invention' of DNA in 1953.
Posted by: DavidCT
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August 1, 2010 9:28 AM
@ Gordon
What would you else would you expect from a god that obviously flunked out of bioengineering school. Judge him (it ? ) by his works. Why are 90+ % of his wondrous works now extinct. How could he get thru god school when he designs eyes that can only see clearly because of massive error correction by the brain? And we are supposed to worship this loser.
Posted by: Richard Eis
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August 1, 2010 9:31 AM
Sounds like the children are already trying to run rings around these "pretend teachers".
Is Australian education so poor now that anyone, regardless of their qualifications (i.e. NONE) can teach any version of any religion to these kids that they want? Did they scour the streets for some "end is nigh" loonies knowing they would be nice and cheap?
...and frankly these people should not be left alone unsupervised around kids. Didn't Australia learn anything from the recent chrisitan child rape cases around the world? Do they think letting anyone teach unsupervised in classrooms is really a good idea? Sounds like a perfect grooming opportunity to me.
Posted by: grudgedk
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August 1, 2010 9:33 AM
#6 "If man evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"
Because DNA wasn't invented yet.
#8 Don't worry. It's Queensland. Blame it on the heat.
Posted by: nwrickert
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August 1, 2010 9:34 AM
At least it is in religion class, not science class.
I don't know about Queensland. Back when I was in school in a Perth suburb, we could choose which religion class (catholic, anglican, various protestant, or just an hour of our own study time). This creation nonsense looks like good comedy - it should be a lot more fun than the theology.
Posted by: gijoel
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August 1, 2010 9:35 AM
grrr stupid keyboard.
As I was saying;
When I was a teenager I went to one of big
religiousprivate schools in Brisbane.One of the teachers at the school camp put forward a theory that there was a massive greenhouse effect in Biblical times which cause a large layer of water to block out all the UV.
This is why Methuselah lived for so long.
In my naivety, and hopped up on John Wyndham's Chocky, I suggested that prophets were really people in telepathic communication with aliens.
He gave me a Class five scowl and said something along the lines of "don't talk nonsense".
The irony of his derision only occurred to me later.
Posted by: raven
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August 1, 2010 9:43 AM
Creationism and toxic religion are serious diseases. You have to get on them fast and treat them aggressively or they can spread.
Everyone who looks can see what it has done to us.
What is the point of following the last and fading superpower over a cliff?
This is a case of "Let's all play lemmings." It never ended well for them either.
Posted by: intelligentfalling
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August 1, 2010 9:47 AM
I finish my degree in a year and will become a school teacher here in Australia. When that happens I will not be leaving a class of mine alone with a religious nut. I will instead stay in the class and call bullshit on anything of this nature. It is a disgrace that this is happening in Australian schools.......Oh shit I hope Ken Ham doesnt hear of this, he may come home. Noooooo!
Posted by: Summer Seale
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August 1, 2010 9:48 AM
Dear School Board,
I'm so incredibly pleased with the fact that these schools were opened up to more realistic kinds of science. Science is in the eye of the beholder and, as is obvious to anyone who jumps off of a building, if you can wish really hard, anything can happen. Obviously people fly off of building all the time, so I have faith that this is true.
Also, I'm so happy because we can finally included Creation science from the Norse Mythos. As any educated and saved person knows, the world is actually part of a tree called Midgard. The fact that we find the bones of the Frost Giants in digs every day (some call them Dinosaurs, but we all know what they really were, don't we?) lends even more proof that my faith is correct. This must entail that Thor and Odin, as well as Freya and Loki were and are all too real.
Being a Pagan, I am of course sensitive to the needs of other Pagans out there. Much can be made from the Greek stories of creation, and I would include them as well. After all, other Pagan gods and stories are just pale but true shadows of the real Norse Sagas. I am therefore supporting all Pagan stories of Creation to be taught in schools as Science.
I further think that all "truth" should be re-written as "your truth", because there isn't any truth and anything "true" depends on anyone's point of view. Therefore, if the Big Bang Theory doesn't square with your tradition, man, then you can just disbelieve that.
After the first few years of this education process, I recommend that the graduates start building Airplanes for us believers only. I have no doubt that these will far exceed the technical skills of "acceptable Scientific engineering" based on nothing but cold numbers and "physics". Then I, and all of my kind, should be made to board these planes for sending over the sea to look for the real Atlantis. With our demonstration of superior technology, we surely shall find it and a new golden age shall descend upon the earth as we fly around in our crystal and faith-powered high tech airplanes. All religious people who have faith would have to board for these to function perfectly, of course, leaving the rest of the craven, scientific, humans behind to live in a cold world dominated by only the most primitively functioning scientific machines.
Thank you for this wonderful opportunity to prove ourselves for people of all faiths as we board together into the future civilization of mankind.
Amen.
Posted by: Sastra
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August 1, 2010 9:55 AM
Captain Dan #4 wrote:
Sometimes I wonder how deep they think they can go with this "man made in the image of God" thing. After all, they believe that God created everything by thinking it: an act of will, and suddenly His thoughts solidify. The first Mind was magic -- and we are in "His image" because we, too have minds like His. Magic minds.
Traditional theists like creationists seem to share this trait, or habit, with the New Age types. Thoughts can be made real, because they're the first and real existence. What the uninitiated call "making stuff up" is what the Insiders call "manifesting reality."
They think they're not cheating, if they're right. But cheating, is cheating: God's followers don't get to be God.
Posted by: raven
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August 1, 2010 10:07 AM
So where are the Moslem, Hindu, Pagan, New Age, and other religious options?
With immigration, there must be neighborhoods where other old religions are common.
And on the US West coast, Pagans and New Agers are at least or more common than fundie xians in places. If they offered religious instruction here, the No Religions, New Agers, and their lawyers would probably descend on the school in a heartbeat demanding their inclusion.
Posted by: johnlil#0a224
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August 1, 2010 10:09 AM
I'd like to examine Jesus' DNA (assuming it had been invented yet). After all, he's a hybrid species - half human, half diety.
That means he probably wasn't capable of fathering children. Take that, Dan Brown!
Posted by: hznfrst
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August 1, 2010 10:09 AM
Lewis Black on fundamentalists: "These people watch The Flintstones as if it were a documentary!"
Posted by: sharl
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August 1, 2010 10:18 AM
This looks like a job for David Thorne.
Posted by: Rorschach
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August 1, 2010 10:21 AM
*grumble*
I won't be blogwhoring here ever, promise, but PZ, on this one I was first !!!
(to be fair, Blaghag was firstest ! )
Posted by: Paul H
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August 1, 2010 10:30 AM
This is getting a little too close to home. It was funnier when it was American schools.
Posted by: raven
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August 1, 2010 10:30 AM
The sidebar coincidentally (a miracle?) had a quote that sums it up.
Posted by: Porco Dio
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August 1, 2010 10:37 AM
most australians are redneck hicks so no surprise to hear this about QLD...
ok, yeah, some of my best friends are australian but these are folk who have left the island and spent substantial time abroad...
QLD is even more backward than the rest though... australia has daylight saving except in QLD where the cows, apparently, would not be able to deal with the time change.
i picture gary larson...
Posted by: Lynna, OM
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August 1, 2010 10:51 AM
Yep. They need a whole new generation of human beings with damaged logic circuits so that they can get them signed up for a religion that demands their time and their money.
More scary child abuse.
Kudos to the teacher who is not going to leave children alone with the bullshit dispensers.
Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkK1eBHKGYd8MbchhBY_KG3dtXTapfchew
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August 1, 2010 11:00 AM
I will never again complain about my boring Biology teacher - as boring as she may be, at least she's teaching me real science.
Posted by: kc5tty
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August 1, 2010 11:01 AM
Are they presenting the gospel of the FSM? His noodly goodness is the most logical.
In all fairness, they should. Also the aboriginal creation stories (came before the white settlers), as well as all the stories in the world.
I'm thinking that maybe people should rise up and demand ALL creation stories be presented. Then when there is no more time in school for math, science, literature or any of the other subjects they'll see exactly how stupid the idea is.
steve
... waiting for something like this in Oklahoma so I can become an evangelist (paid,of course) for the Flying Spaghetti Monster ..... with meatballs ..... and a nice Chianti ....
Posted by: blogsmalldog
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August 1, 2010 11:11 AM
At the very least, the students seem to be really skeptical of what they're being taught.
Posted by: Cerberus, unnatural product of en-OMnomnom-ification
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August 1, 2010 11:21 AM
A good argument against having religion classes in public schools.
If they want a Sunday School, they can have that on Sunday at their churches, but they don't get to have it Monday-Friday in the Public schools as well, taking time from the students they could spend actually learning something.
You don't see public schools stealing away Sunday school time or demanding they get half the morning to teach actual science education to the children they are lying to, so the religions can fuck off and stop trying to take over the schools.
Posted by: Thunderbird 5
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August 1, 2010 11:22 AM
sharl @25
*Buys David Thorne a pint.
Posted by: Grahame
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August 1, 2010 11:24 AM
It pains me to say it, but Australians are lazy. They will piss and moan about stuff like this and wonder when someone will do something about it. As a result it's easy for a small group of arseholes to get into this position where they are fucking with the heads of students.
On a nostalgic note, I remember scripture classes when I was in school. In that case Australian laziness meant a half-arsed scripture program where we'd get maybe one class a semester and it was purely a chance to muck up and tease the poor sod who got the job. Nobody took it seriously.
Posted by: Rorschach
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August 1, 2010 11:31 AM
I wish people would read the links. The point here is that these RI classes are half-hourly instructions once a week, who can be held by "any interested layperson" and are often not supervised by a teacher at all. In short, any kook can get in here and have a go at primary school children, with whatever insane drivel they wish to indoctrinate the kids with.
This has to stop now.
Posted by: gettingfree
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August 1, 2010 11:35 AM
ROFL
They think "god" was nice enough to put a protective spell on Adam and Eve so dinosaurs wouldn't eat them, but not helpful enough to put a protective spell on them to make them ignore bad snakes talking them into disobeying him.
Very selectively helpful this "god".
Posted by: Amanda
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August 1, 2010 11:38 AM
"But the teacher replied that DNA wasn't invented then."
That made me laugh like a lunatic until the tears started.
Posted by: Clint
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August 1, 2010 11:54 AM
Although this should be brought to public notice from time to time whilst the practice is still ongoing, it is hardly NEWS.
I attended Queensland State Primary schools in the 1960's and we had Religious Instruction classes for an hour each week - usually held by lay persons.
Fortunately for me, my wonderful parents opted me out.
In my school of 1000+ there were only two students opted out by parents, the other was a Seventh Day Adventist.
We certainly were not ostracised by other kids, in fact were regarded with envy as we didn't have to sit through the BS. The kids of that age weren't as dumb as some might suggest.
Kids in church-run schools - well they had it different. Religion was rammed down their throats all day every day.
Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy
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August 1, 2010 11:56 AM
"Students have been told Noah collected dinosaur eggs to bring on the Ark, and Adam and Eve were not eaten by dinosaurs because they were under a protective spell."
I wonder if it occurs to any of the children that these religious instructors sound exactly like them and their friends during a bullshitting session about Pokemon or something similar.
It's telling that there could be no other subject which they would allocate to any "interested layman" either.
Posted by: Steven Dunlap
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August 1, 2010 11:59 AM
Brian Dalton, are you reading this! I smell a Mr. Deity episode based on this lovely bit of improvised idiocy. Just picture Larry trying to explain DNA to the Big Guy.
Posted by: jidashdee
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August 1, 2010 12:01 PM
Ah, the good old days!
Protemnodon rides on the poop deck and mysteriously large omelettes at the captains table!
Good times, good times...
Posted by: Rorschach
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August 1, 2010 12:16 PM
There was an Online poll recently, 1500 aussies were polled wrt the dinosaur issue and other basic science questions, and sadly 30% answered that yes, hunky dory, humans rode on T Rex.
I can only charitably assume they got that mixed up with PZ riding the Triceratops
Posted by: mistereveready
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August 1, 2010 12:23 PM
If this is true it reminds me of the British school I saw on the second part of Richard Dawkins' Root of All Evil video.
Whether public or private, I think both should be required to teach facts or be open about humanity's ignorance.
Posted by: Glen Davidson
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August 1, 2010 12:50 PM
It's probably not only no worse, but even better, than teaching ID. Certainly the dinosaur eggs and DNA not being invented yet are bizarre nonsense, but at least it's not a direct assault upon the need for evidence in science, like we get from ID.
Worthless theistic nonsense, and still not as bad as ID's attempts to destroy science.
Glen Davidson
Posted by: Chgo_Liz
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August 1, 2010 12:53 PM
If my paltry Aussie English is sufficient, I believe the correct response to intelligentfalling @ #19 is: Good on ya, mate!
Posted by: shaxanth27
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August 1, 2010 1:02 PM
It's a shame that the students, en masse, wouldn't feel at liberty to laugh their instructor red at times like this. I don't know at what age the kids take this (timewaster of a)course, but it would be nice if first there could be a course in Bullshit Detection (ala Michael Shermer?) preferably in Kindergarten.
They probably already know that the teach is spouting crap (so I guess cells weren't invented yet either Sir?), but nice early Bullshit Detection instruction would help them call it with confidence.
Kids are not stupid, just very, very susceptible to pressure. What an effing irresponsible school board.
Posted by: Paul Brown
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August 1, 2010 1:11 PM
Oh! Oh! Oh!
I grew up near and went to school in Gympie, which has long been a hot-bed for nuttery in splendid variety. Currently a mob called "The Exclusive Brethren" are taking over the town. And the principal of a local evangelical christian school was recently charged with raping a student at the last school he was employed at. So it goes.
To clear up one misconception; the Australian / Queensland education systems don't have a 'school board' and local district model. It's a state-wide responsibility, with consistent curriculum and policies.
And to highlight a related issue. Part of the problem is that the best lack all conviction, while the worst are filled with passionate intensity. The RI instruction classes are often conducted by the unreasonable dregs of the local fundies, and there's not a single humanist or atheist in sight.
A properly conducted study of comparative religion seems like a worthwhile topic if only because a little travel broadens the mind. But allowing those with "an agenda" into the classroom doesn't further this ideal.
Posted by: No One
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August 1, 2010 1:12 PM
Disturbingly Openminded
Hey, we a have a trade deficit to make up for.
Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites
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August 1, 2010 1:26 PM
Seriously? This is so full of WTF? I can barely handle it.
What fucking bonehead decided letting any random asshole off the street teach a half-hour class was a good idea? And then, who is surprised that they're clearly making shit up off of the top of their heads? Finally, no supervision?
I certainly hope Little Miss Know-It-All and her uppity parents have learned to keep their mouths shut. Next module, Abscess-Faced Jim is going to teach the kids how to make an alien-brainwave-reflecting helmet out simple materials found in any boxcar.
Posted by: abscessfacedjim
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August 1, 2010 1:32 PM
HEY!
Posted by: SheepdogB
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August 1, 2010 1:35 PM
First anti-vaxxers and now this infestation of creationist nonsense. I hope the Australian people are able to buck the trend toward the kind of irrational insanity. Sometimes it feels like reason itself is under siege.
Posted by: Jessa
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August 1, 2010 1:59 PM
Shplane @#6:
You joke, but I've had a YEC acquaintance seriously use that argument. According to him, the reason why we can see light from galaxies millions of light-years away even though our universe is supposedly only 6000 years old is because God set the speed of light some days after he created light itself.
Apparently light was able to zip around at infinite speed while God was pondering a good value for c.
Posted by: Richard Eis
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August 1, 2010 2:01 PM
Actually I think it's pretty funny how religious moral guidance can be taught by any "layman" they found wandering the streets. And let's face it, these "DNA wasn't invented" guys are definitely off their streets. So much for bible college and needing the fancy hats before you should discuss indepth theology!!!
Wasn't there a big complaint that atheists only take on the simple minded, uneducated layman christians? Well now you know why! Because they are teaching embarrassingly bad "everything" to your kids without supervision.
I wonder if they do background checks on these so called "teachers" too?
Posted by: raven
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August 1, 2010 2:15 PM
This is a variant of Omphalos, that god created the universe 6,000 years ago but made it look 13.7 billion years old.
A little thought shows how evil this god is. He is going a long way out of his way to fool us so we don't believe in him and so end up in hell being tortured forever. The fundie god is a warped, incompetent monster.
It also shows what happens when people make up lies to support the lies of the bible. It doesn't work, just tangles things up worse.
Posted by: spaninquis
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August 1, 2010 2:21 PM
...and creationists are direct descendants of pre-DNA ancestors.
Posted by: blf
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August 1, 2010 2:21 PM
Some of those (not-really-)teachers sound like Less-Brains-Than-a-Stuffed-Turkey (Graeme Bird). That nutter is someplace in Ozland, and I can easily imagine it spouting such claims (bizarre bordering on ad hoc conspiracy; no evidence; ducks, ignores, or complains about questions; claims to be a “teacher”; etc.).
Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmugfTF7y5Yn6zyndKyOxHD-IUz1eQ1ry4
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August 1, 2010 2:25 PM
Dinosaur fossils are not carbon dated. Carbon dating can only be used a few thousand years back. Older dates are determined by potassium-argon dating. And you don't date the fossils themselves, rather the igneous rock that surrounds them.
Posted by: McCthulhu is taking ∞ to eat all the pi
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August 1, 2010 2:30 PM
One of the kids needs to bring a sample of DNA taken from the ten-thousand year old mastodons taken from peat bogs, wave it in this guy's face and yell 'LIAR! LIIIIIIIAR!!!' (in the voice Carol Kane used in 'Princess Bride'). That stuff would predate the 6000 year old non-existent DNA from non-existent Adam and Eve by at least a couple millennia.
Someone there must be PO'd enough to write a tirade-filled letter to an Aussie MP asking them if they want a Dover-esque legal battle and a PBS Nova special.
That brings to mind a question; has a student being subjected to creationist crap in public school ever sued a schoolboard later on for wasting his formative years and causing undue stress and mental anguish?
Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy
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August 1, 2010 2:32 PM
"And then, who is surprised that they're clearly making shit up off of the top of their heads?"
I probably ought to curtail my habit of inserting cultural references in the comment box in lieu of my own snark (or rare insight), but...
I'd like to digress from my prepared remarks to discuss how I invented the terlet.
Posted by: Mattir-ritated
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August 1, 2010 2:33 PM
I've started including an explanation of why fossils aren't carbon-dated in all my geology/fossil talks at our nature center, thanks to Pharyngula. I omit the "Oy, Hovind..." part.
DaughterSpawn was at a forestry camp last week and had her first encounter with a YEC. She responded admirably to the "why are there still monkeys" question by pointing out that the girl challenging her was related to her first cousin, but that didn't mean she was descended from her first cousin, but instead that they shared a common ancestor. I suspect, though, that her description of humans as large, bipedal, hairless apes with enlarged brain cases didn't go over all that well.
Posted by: piranhaintheguppytank#9ee73
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August 1, 2010 2:56 PM
Some biblical science "facts":
* In biblical times, every animal on earth lived within walking distance of Noah's house.
* Primitive Stone Age people had the engineering skills to build a tower reaching to the stratosphere, some 30 miles away. (Genesis 11:4)
* Household mold and mildew are forms of leprosy. (KJV Leviticus 13:47-49; KJV Leviticus 14:37-38)
* The sun and moon are lamps that can be remotely controlled by humans. (Isaiah 38:8; Joshua 10:12-13)
* List of biblical endangered species: unicorns (KJV Isaiah 34:7), satyrs (KJV Isaiah 34:14), cockatrices (KJV Jeremiah 8:17), dragons (KJV Isaiah 34:13).
Posted by: Aquaria
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August 1, 2010 3:06 PM
Students have been told Noah collected dinosaur eggs to bring on the Ark, and Adam and Eve were not eaten by dinosaurs because they were under a protective spell.
This is where you hang them with their own fairy tale garbage book.
You tell them to show you where in the babble that Noah took eggs onto his paddleboat (never mind how he couldn't know if either was male or female beforehatching). And where did it say there was a protective spell in Eden? Isn't that sorcery, something the fairytale sky king deplores?
You may not get them to stop being off the rails stupid even for a creationist, but it's the only way to knock some sense into these fuckwits that doesn't involve a 2 X 4 and a jail sentence.
It's really the only hope of knocking some sense into them that doesn't involve a 2 X4 and a jail sentence.
Posted by: Xenithrys
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August 1, 2010 3:07 PM
There seems to be a limited (I hope) form of this in New Zealand. One TV channel has a weekly news section called "Good Sorts" where they praise some worthy (usually) person from the community. Last week's episode was about a woman who goes into schools to teach the kiddies about Jesus.
I was shocked that she got a "Good Sorts" story for her child abuse, and I'm also shocked the schools allow her to do it. But I don't think it's widespread here.
Posted by: Simulation of Sapience
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August 1, 2010 3:14 PM
Asking questions leads to a slippery slope of thinking,reason,and all of that other Liberal nonsense you hear about on the Fox News. Just imagine if that girl had managed to taint the other students with her inability to take what the school Bible Study Teacher said at face value!
"Wait a minute. Doesn't the Bible say that God created everything in 6 days and then rested on the 7th? If that is so and He saved Mankind until the 6th day in all of their DNA free,presumably non-self replicating inglory,when exactly did He get around to releasing the DNA bearing models? More importantly,isn't DNA a pretty big thing to forget to include in His creations if His process was truly flawless? For that matter,when did He invent Sin. Better yet...why? Because He could?!
No,no,teacher. Nothing about this adds up at all!"
Next thing you know,dogs are walking men around on leashes and TV watches you.It doesn't matter if this is going on in Australia or Austria, Ronnie Reagan didn't die for the Soviets Union to win,you know!
Posted by: Tim
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August 1, 2010 3:29 PM
When I opened the link, I became immediately suspicious that this was a spoof and PZ was testing our gullibility quotient.
For one thing, the creationist claim were so outlandish as to beggar the imagination. Nobody, nobody could possibly be that stupid.
My eye was immediately drawn to the story about the French woman charged with killing 8 of her babies, without any of her family noticing. WTF? if this isn't a spoof, I'll eat my hat.
So I Googled the woman's name and found to my astonishment that the story was genuine. (Good thing I wasn't wearing a hat. Also, I must resolve to pay more attention to current events.)
And that, of course, meant that the creationist story was not a spoof. So I read the story more carefully, and found out that implausible as it sounded, there were actually people in Australia lecturing this nonsense to children.
So, what does this say about the "Teach the Controversy" argument? These people are utterly falling-down crazy.
Posted by: JohnM55
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August 1, 2010 3:30 PM
Note that this is Queensland.
I have a hypothesis concerning the effect of heat, and humidity on the north European brain. I am convinced that it causes in increase in stupidity, the same effect can be noted in the southern parts of the USA.
Of course this could also be due to inbreeding as fundies don't look too far outside the circle for partners. I'll have to find a way of screening for that when I get round to testing the hypothesis.
Posted by: blf
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August 1, 2010 3:38 PM
As you report, it's genuine. Big news here in France, for many and obvious reasons.
I'm partial to stir-fried hat with oyster sauce, and saké to drink. Enjoy.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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August 1, 2010 4:00 PM
I take it that Watson and Crick invented DNA.
Posted by: MadScientist
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August 1, 2010 4:01 PM
@JohnM55: Well, NSW, ACT, Vic, SA, WA, NT, and Tas aren't really any better. Very disappointing, Bruce. To think that over 70 years ago an Australian, Florey, was the first to produce antibiotics in enormous quantities. Australia also had some of the world's first radio telescopes. Don't be nice to the religious, it only makes 'em believe all the more that they must be Right. Well, at least you've got another godless prime minister for the moment. Now will you guys vote for Abbott and Costello? That should be an interesting mix of catholic and fundamentalist dogma ...
Posted by: MadScientist
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August 1, 2010 4:04 PM
@nwrickert#16: It's very silly that public schools have religious classes at all; what a waste fo taxpayers' money, not to mention a waste of the children's time being handed bullshit as if it were true.
Posted by: desertfroglet
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August 1, 2010 4:15 PM
MadScientist@71
Abbott and Bishop. Costello is long gone!
Not sure who's supposed to be the fundie there.
Posted by: azumahazuki
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August 1, 2010 4:17 PM
It makes it a little easier to deal with the fundies' ranting by pretending everything they say is in Beavis' voice when I read it.
"How did the dinosaurs get on the ark then?"
"Uh, meh-hehheh, um, uh...Noah took a dinosaur egg, and anoter dinosaur egg, and he put 'em on the ark, m'heh. An', uh, that's how they got dinosaurs. Yeah. M'heh-hehheh. Bunghole."
Posted by: puf-almighty
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August 1, 2010 4:19 PM
I remember being a private science/math tutor for this kid who was unfortunately going to a Christian School (where, you know, instead of getting taught stuff like 'Let the children come to me,' and 'It is easier for a camel to pass through the needle's eye than for a rich man to enter heaven,' they were hearing insane bullshit like this). The section on origin of species said Darwin was a failure as a scientist, that the earth was once surrounded by a great sphere of water, and the flood resulted from this, and this was proved by fossil beds (because fossil beds prove that all the animals died at once). It was bananas.
Posted by: desertfroglet
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August 1, 2010 4:26 PM
I would like to think that it made the news because it's so unusual and desirable. Please don't disillusion me.
And all you folks hating on Queensland, what do you have to say about this part of the article (my emphasis):
New South Wales is full of fundy nutters of all denominations.
Oh ... this isn't getting any better, is it?
Posted by: desertfroglet
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August 1, 2010 4:29 PM
Oh, FFS! ... so unusual and UNdesirable.
Damn you, brain. You've failed me yet again.
Posted by: blf
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August 1, 2010 4:29 PM
And I thought fossil beds were just very old and extremely hard mattresses that had seen better days. And dead animals around them had died of exhaustion after failing to get any sleep on them.
Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa)
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August 1, 2010 4:32 PM
and yet they are in different lyers which, through scientific studies, seems to be millions of years appart. How about that...
Posted by: McCthulhu is taking ∞ to eat all the pi
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August 1, 2010 4:47 PM
I think as a blanket response to all these moronic creationst stories people bring to our attention here on Pharyngula, I'm just going to quote Cookie Monster as my lone response from now on: "FUUUU*BLEEP*!"
Elmo's '*BLEEP*-you, baby!' is also apropos.
Posted by: jcmartz.myopenid.com
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August 1, 2010 4:48 PM
Further,
In fact, Yahweh himself discourages questioning:
Posted by: TheCalmOne
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August 1, 2010 4:49 PM
Grahame:
As an Australian I would kind of agree with you but I would also point out that the 'laziness' you refer to can also be seen as apathy, or even contempt (which you hint at in your second paragraph)...
Lack of respect for authority - religious and temporal - is one of our defining characteristics, and one of our sources of strength as a people.
Posted by: TimKO,,.,,
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August 1, 2010 5:39 PM
" why are the schools investing scarce resources to give religious extremists and lunatics a platform in the public schools at all?"
...and why just that religion out of the hundreds that exist? Do they offer several? Can a student take an entire class load of Jainism, Buddhism, etc.? Because, if their excuse if to offer additional viewpoints...
Posted by: raven
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August 1, 2010 5:52 PM
Sounds like you are coming down with the American disease.
When you find a cure, let us know.
Posted by: W. H. Heydt
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August 1, 2010 5:53 PM
RE: #28. Thanks, Raven. That quote from me is on the order of 25 years old. I guess nothing on usenet ever truly disappears...
--W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
Posted by: rmwilliamsjr
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August 1, 2010 5:54 PM
payback for sending us ken hamm.
Posted by: Kel, The Privileged View From Nowhere
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August 1, 2010 6:17 PM
If they want to teach creationism in scripture classes, surely that isn't a problem (other than the fact that there are religious classes in the public school system). I think it's good that an 11 year old kid was able to speak up and argue that the teacher was talking crap.
Posted by: Roger Scott
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August 1, 2010 6:21 PM
There is a lot of this in Queensland I'm afraid. I used to teach science in this very same system. Part of my duties involved supervising religious education (RE) classes. Some of the RE "teachers" were reasonable people but a worrying percentage were full-blown creationists.
One middle-aged chap spoke of the Big Bang being "reconsidered" along with evolution. He said the room we were in was "full of evil spirits". After sitting-in in perhaps half a dozen of his "lessons" he seemed to disappear from our school. A few years later a small item in a local paper stated that he had been sentenced to a stiff jail term for molesting children. (That came as a real shock and a bit of an eye opener.)
Another memorable RE mis-educator was an ex-student of mine. He had drifted after leaving school but had found new meaning to life in a local church. His creationism message was so strong that I told him after the class had been dismissed that I would be discussing his message with the students and pointing out where he was wrong.
A very confident local pastor in his early thirties dismissed evolution out of hand saying it was against the second law of thermodynamics. He left with a third of the lesson time remaining. I told his much younger side-kick after the lesson that his friend didn't know what he was talking about. "But Mike is a qualified engineer" he replied. "Maybe, but he doesn't understand science". He looked slightly disappointed, turned and walked away.
This young chap had something in common with a local pastor who ran creationist films in the local village hall near my home. I wrote to this chap pointing out the slick stupidity and deceptiveness of the films, some of which I had endured when they were shown at my school. He replied that he had been an addict and found a clean life in his new faith. Therefore Christianity was true. And of course evolution just had to be false.
That is the level at which these people operate.
Posted by: MadScientist
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August 1, 2010 6:24 PM
@desertfroglet#73: Abbott + a Bishop - even better! Both religious titles; will they have a minister named Pope to add to the list?
Posted by: MadScientist
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August 1, 2010 6:30 PM
@Kel #87: I think you miss the fact that the bullshit rammed down children's throats in scripture classes will persist beyond those classes, so I disagree with you - there is everything wrong with creationism regardless of where it is taught.
Posted by: Grahame
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August 1, 2010 6:37 PM
@ TheCalmOne #82 Do Australians really lack respect for authority? I wonder sometimes. What's the usual epithet hurled at refugees who come to Australia by boat? "Queue jumpers". The thing that transports aussies with this issue is that they didn't play by the rules, they didn't patiently wait in line. Never mind that the line is in a tent city somewhere in a desert in Africa or Pakistan, that's no reason to break the rules.
Posted by: Wormman
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August 1, 2010 6:38 PM
Paul Brown (#49) - the "Atheists in Classrooms" was actually the original model for the revamp of RE in QLD, where RE would become a studies of religion course which covered all faiths and philosophies. The humanists even had a draft curriculum ready.
Trouble is the media, led by the Sunday Snail who is blowing this particular dog whistle loud and clear at the moment, managed to scare this gutless state government of ours into thinking such a thing would let the witches and satanists into the classroom, so the plan was revised to make sure it was only Christians who delivered the program with occasional guest spots from Imans and Rabbis if you had some available.
The big barrier to getting atheists into the classroom is that for every sane rational person there are a hundred foaming fundies with evangelical fervour wanting to spread the good word. It becomes a matter of supply overriding demand.
As EQ's spokeperson, Petrea Walton should be severely reprimanded for saying that she sees nothing wrong with the whole sorry affair. These people are undermining the efforts of teachers - they are basically saying that teachers are wrong and this is an attack on the professionalism of the people who EQ are supposed to advocate for.
And Gympie . . . you poor sod. I have enough trouble doing a few days every holiday on in-law duty.
Posted by: Avi Chapman
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August 1, 2010 7:02 PM
This is a disgrace and is exactly why the Secular Party of Australia exists.
The Secular Party has Senate candidates in every state and in many lower house electorates as well. Their policies can be found on their website: http://www.secular.org.au/
Posted by: GravityIsJustATheory
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August 1, 2010 7:04 PM
Posted by: johnlil#0a224 Author Profile Page | August 1, 2010 10:09 AM
No no no no. Jesus wasn't some sort of pagan-style demigod, like Heracles or Perseus. Jesus was simultaneously all God and all man. (How that actually works I don't know. I suppose you could ask the Christians but given that and major schisms and religious wars have been fought over it, you might not get a consistent answer).
Now, what would be really interesting, though, would be to do a DNA test on Gilgamesh, who was apparently 2/3 god and 1/3 human.
Posted by: Kirk
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August 1, 2010 7:20 PM
From the link:
But if that's what you want, then you have a syllabus and offer a course called "Comparative Religious Studies" or something similar, and have it taught by a trained teacher.
In my humble opinion, if we could have mandatory comparative religion classes, religious belief would drop significantly.
Instructor: "And these guys believed this whacko shit. But it gets worse, because these other guys believed this other whacko shit. And there have been thousands of these groups, all believing different whacko shit, and they are willing to kill each other over differing interpretations of whacko shit."
Child: "Whoa. That's a lot of whacko shit. I'm going to have to think about this to decide which whacko shit is true. Or maybe, maybe, hold on a second, this all sounds like whacko shit."
Posted by: mylf
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August 1, 2010 7:22 PM
I withdrew my kids from RI in a Queensland primary (Brisbane) 6 years ago, when my eldest came home saying they'd been taught that the earth was 6000 years old and that fossils were the result of the flood.
The teacher said that while she supervised the class, she was not allowed to interrupt it.
My kids have been left to mess around in the computer room during those lessons since then.
More amusingly, a secular ethics class held for children withdrawn from RI is being trialled in some primaries in NSW. The christian churches were up in arms, particularly when the schools involved offered the course to all children at the schools rather than those already withdrawn from RI. It appeared they didn't want their captive audience given that opportunity.
But it got worse. They then, I kid you not, claimed that the kids doing RI were disadvantaged in not being able to attend the ethics course.
In other words...their christian courses were not teaching ethics. And they'd rather kids not doing RI were left doing nothing useful rather than do ethics.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/catholics-try-new-tack-in-ethics-row-20100607-xqu8.html
Posted by: expat Texan
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August 1, 2010 7:45 PM
Britain didn't just clean out it's jails to startup Oz, it cleaned out it's asylums as well.
I read someplace it takes a population of 150,000 to make a viable human genetic pool. Today, there are less than a dozen communities in Australia with populations that large.
It's a great place for curing racism, however. No one who has ever lived in Australia could possibly believe in white supremacy.
Posted by: Simulation of Sapience
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August 1, 2010 8:05 PM
@GravityIsJustATheory #94-
I believe that Jesus' ability to be simultaneously Man and God can be explained as a form of Symbiosis,the divine essence possessing the still very much human body of Jesus...sort of like a heart worm that lives inside of a dog's heart but isn't a part of the dog. That's where the joy of the Lord is, deep down in your heart.
That's why He had to check out after 33 years. Any longer is just too much awesomeness for a mere mortal shell to possibly contain.
Wouldn't it be delightful if this is what the children are learning in school instead of all of those bothersome facts?
Posted by: TheCalmOne
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August 1, 2010 8:23 PM
Roger Scott:
If he was a "qualified engineer", at least of the mechanical variety, he should have a very good understanding of thermodynamics. I had an extensive grounding in thermodynamics as part of my undergraduate degree. Of course, I did go to a proper university...
Posted by: echidna
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August 1, 2010 8:29 PM
The engineer who ignores everything that he learned about thermodynamics for the sake of his religion is a type that I know too well.
The worst part is that they retain the authority of their education (in their own minds as well as in others) but just soak up the lies they are fed by their religious masters.
Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/xaStVywarZ6R9nrlSjv4D8_6GGA0PWmf#765c4
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August 1, 2010 8:49 PM
Since there's really nothing more to add since all that can be said about this has been said (and kudos to the person that pointed out dinosaur fossils aren't carbon dated! even as an archaeologist I get that shit all the time), I'd just like to say to sharl@25 regarding David Thorne: I'm laughing so hard it hurts!! Thanks you for that! :)
Squigit
Posted by: nonsensemachine
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August 1, 2010 8:59 PM
Five year old asks an adult question, adult gives a childish answer. Are we sure the class is FOR five year olds and not taught BY five year olds?
Posted by: Robbie
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August 1, 2010 9:18 PM
It's election time down under. On the Sunrise breakfast TV show this morning they hosted a debate between the Family First party, a fundamentalist xian front and the Australian Sex Party. The Sex party person turned the debate into one about religious organisations claiming tax free status, not for any charity work they may do, but for spreading their nonsense. The show did a phone in poll for the debate and of the 6000 votes submitted, it went 52% for the fundies and 48% for the Sex party, the vote was on "who won the debate". The show's hosts, Mel & Koshie gave it to the Sex party. It's good that the electorate seemed to almost equally divided, as the churchies would have used their networks to "work the poll" to skew the results in their favour, while the non believers would have to do without an organisation to swing the vote their way. I'm in sunny Queensland. This state has long been called Australia's bible belt. The state, like your Florida, is home to a large retired community and this can enhance the conservative element. The state Labor government is technically a secular organisation, but the deluded religiots are somehow sneaking in with their trashy nonsense. The population, at least those with an interest, are aware of this sad development and moves are underway to take it to court, we too have a constitution that separates church and state.
Posted by: Pyre
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August 1, 2010 9:50 PM
It's too bad they don't revise the Bible to insert a passage on the invention and retrofitting of DNA.
That would be early in Genesis, of course, right at the Fall. Before, Adam and Eve were immortal. The DNA may have been added as the clockwork to count down the mortality of their cells and bodies, a function not previously needed.
So now all those Creationist biochem labs should should get cracking on how the -1 version of human cells worked! Ooooh, research grants galore! The genetic secret of immortality!
How can *I* get a percentage of this scam....
Posted by: Koshka
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August 1, 2010 10:26 PM
Please note that this article is from the Courier Mail - as in "Is it true? or did you read it in the Courier Mail". This article has no doubt been pulled out the file so something other than our mind numbing election can be on the front page on a Sunday.
Posted by: Wormman
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August 1, 2010 10:39 PM
Koshka (#105) - Too true, although the "journalists" at the Curious Snail will beg to differ that they're from the same paper as that trashy Sunday Snail where the article originally appeared.
Remember the beat up they had a month or two back about when they claimed that QLD kids would be taught creationism under the new national History curriculum ? As it turned out it was a suggestion that kids could choose Darwin's difficulties in getting his message across as an example of a historical controversey. No mention of creationism or ID at all. Not to mention that it was reported in this very forum as "Queensland", while the changes are occurring in a national curriculum.
It's would be nice to think that the Snails are getting outraged by all of this, but the cynic in me sees it as the dog whistling exercise it is. Creationism is one of those topics which is guaranteed to liven up the bogan boards - 93 comments yesterday, all of which had to find their way through all that lovely advertising.
Posted by: Cath the Canberra Cook
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August 1, 2010 10:50 PM
@Grahame #91: The "queue jumper" framing is not supposed to appeal to authority but to the idea of the "fair go". It's appealling to our supposed Australian egalitarianism - you don't let someone bully or buy their way to the head of the line. Fair shake of the sauce bottle, mate :)
I do agree that it's false, and a nasty way of libelling refugees. I just think you misinterpreted the specifics of how the frame works.
Posted by: John Scanlon FCD
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August 1, 2010 11:02 PM
@Porco Dio #29, you very funny! We say the same sort of things about Americans, and they've clearly got us Aussies beaten in ignorance of geography. (And a much higher proportion of Aussies do travel to other countries)
Did you know that Queensland is mainly north of the Tropic of Capricorn? Understand what that means? - Day length doesn't vary all that much between summer and winter, so there'd be little advantage from messing with the clocks. The state is also well over a thousand km across east-west, so a change that pleased Brisbane office workers might not be so convenient in other parts, like where I live. With the cows.
Are Queenslanders mostly redneck religious morons? In six years of daily public talks about fossil history and evolution, I've encountered five people (of thousands of visitors, mostly travelling within Australia but also many of both local Queenslanders and overseas tourists) who admitted to being creationists, and only three of those were annoying about it. Of course my sample is skewed to those interested enough to enter a fossil museum (and mentally competent enough to find the door), but I wonder if there's another nation where I'd meet so few creationists in such a role.
But of course if an Online Poll says that most people are a peculiar kind of idjits, I'd better go with that. Has PZ taught you nothing?
Posted by: Liam
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August 1, 2010 11:04 PM
Yep, we have a bit of a problem over here with regards to creationism. Apparently it isn't Politically Correct to teach kids in public school only one 'version' of science. One of our senator's Stephen Fielding had an interesting run-in with Richard Dawkins on a panel discussion not too long ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSqzyLIBEug
*sigh*
Posted by: Koshka
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August 1, 2010 11:04 PM
Wormman (#106) - You are correct. The article was in the Sunday Mail yesterday. However the story at news.com.au implies that it was from the Courier Mail. It appears I am not the only one who mixes up these quality newspapers.
The thing I find annoying is the article attacks the evangelical christians for teaching fairytales. it is RI - it is supposed to be about fairy tales. Why is the paper not pointing out the nonsense of a virgin birth of a god/human who raises from the dead? Because Courier Mail readers want to laugh (and get wound up ) at other people's stupidity rather than their own.
"Students have been told Noah collected dinosaur eggs to bring on the Ark, and Adam and Eve were not eaten by dinosaurs because they were under a protective spell." - What nonsense! - As opposed to Noah building a big fuck off boat and cramming it full of animals whilst the world was completely covered in water.
A week or so ago there was an opinion piece about how the evangelical christian churches should not get tax free status. Too right and neither should any of the other churches.
"But the church does alot of charity work in the community" That is good - but so do alot of individuals and businesses - and guess what? It is tax deductible!
As a disclaimer I am a Courier Mail reader. It gives me a (probably false) sense of superiority.
Posted by: Koshka
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August 1, 2010 11:22 PM
@ John Scanlon FCD (#108) - I live in Brisbane and generally would prefer to have daylight saving but its benefit to me is negligible compared to the difficulties it imposes to others in the state so I am happy that we dont have it.
I am not sure where Porco Dio (#29) is from - presumably somewhere they dont use capital letters to start sentences (he must know where the shift key is as he managed QLD).
I would suggest that you accept in good grace that Australia (in particular QLD) is backward and get back to having sex with your sister as I am about to.
Posted by: realmotk
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August 1, 2010 11:34 PM
Rona Joyner just won't stay dead!
http://www.angelfire.com/id/ronajoyner/
(I assume she is dead, or maybe the demise of the National party in Queensland ensured she lost her ability to shit in the playpen of QLD politics)
Posted by: Rob Davidson
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August 1, 2010 11:36 PM
As a Queenslander, I thought I'd like to make music out of Ken Ham's voice (he's a fellow Queenslander).
Listen to Ken Ham "singing" here, while my Qld ensemble Topology plays along live (for an ABC Radio show in Sydney).
Posted by: John Scanlon FCD
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August 1, 2010 11:52 PM
@ Grahame #91, it's true that Aussies are very good at queuing, but that's the perfect expression of anarchy (direct democracy) rather than submission to external authority. Detecting and calling out queue-jumpers (it usually only takes one 'Oi!') is part of the national character that has been cynically exploited by xenophobic politicians.
Posted by: John Scanlon FCD
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August 2, 2010 12:00 AM
Koshka, you're lucky you have a sister. Emus are bloody hard to catch.
Posted by: Stanton
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August 2, 2010 12:02 AM
Then what happened to all the aborigines? Especially the ones who used to live in Tasmania...?Posted by: Cath the Canberra Cook
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August 2, 2010 12:02 AM
Oh, also, everybody in Oz: VOTE BELOW THE LINE!!!
Do your research. Don't let some scummy preference deal get Fielding re-elected. Oh, and filter Conroy out too. And the Sex Party is awesome, you should vote for them, definitely.
Posted by: realmotk
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August 2, 2010 12:05 AM
What Cath said:
https://www.belowtheline.org.au/
Posted by: spurrymoses
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August 2, 2010 12:14 AM
I thought this was surely the most disturbing thing said:
Education Queensland assistant director-general Patrea Walton said Creationism was part of some faiths, and therefore was part of some teaching
Can people in NSW complain to Education Queensland?
Posted by: Koshka
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August 2, 2010 12:33 AM
@spurrymoses #119 - What are you going to complain about? That they are teaching nonsense in RI class? Are you surprised by this?
You should be complaining that they are teaching RI class in a state school!
If you think this shit only happens in Queensland then you are naive.
Posted by: Jeremy O'Wheel
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August 2, 2010 12:42 AM
Sorry I haven't read all the comments so maybe somebody has responded to this already but the reason why schools are "investing scarce resources to give religious extremists and lunatics a platform in the public schools at all?" is because these people are all volunteers. It costs the school no money at all to have them preaching their religion, but gives the teachers some spare time. This also explains why they such ridiculous things; they're completely unqualified, and indeed, at least the ones that tried to brainwash me, uneducated. They're just random people who come in off the street and preach nonsense. Once I finish my degree (in biology) and get myself a real job, I'm going to volunteer at my local public school to preach FSMism.
Posted by: xrayzed
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August 2, 2010 1:20 AM
"But the teacher replied that DNA wasn't invented then."
As hysterically funny as this is, in an "I can't believe how fucking stupid some people can be" kind of way, it's horrifying this nonsense was said by a teacher to a student.
I find it appalling that someone with such a critically deficient understanding of basic biology should be allowed within 200 metres of a classroom without a supervising adult present.
Posted by: Wormman
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August 2, 2010 1:32 AM
xrayzed (#122) the Sunday Snail was using its usual tactic of debasing the teaching profession by calling anyone who talks in front of kids in schools a teacher - the quote was from the kid, but the Snail conitnues the error later in the article on its own. The dolts presenting this trash were missionaries from the local penetecostal church who have been given free access to kids as part of a scheme which the government has introduced because they believe that the extremist religious might actually vote for them rather than Family First.
It's still a valid question why they were allowed in there, however it is government and education department policy to do so. Another question which could be asked of the teachers who were supervising is why they didn't step in at that point and say "I'm sorry kids, this guy is obviously a wack job with a tenuous grasp of reality" before propelling him bodily from the room.
Or maybe that's why they won't let me supervise these classes.
Posted by: Koshka
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August 2, 2010 1:39 AM
@Jeremy O'Wheel #121.
I dont believe that cost is the factor as to why this is allowed in state schools in Australia. Other people have made comments that as teachers they have sat in on these classes. I believe it is that the established churches still have hold on the education departments to insist on these RI classes. It was these churches that stopped the ethics classes going ahead in New South Wales. And if you allow the established nutjobs in then it is only fair to let the newbie nutjobs in as well.
Posted by: spurrymoses
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August 2, 2010 2:04 AM
@Koshka #120 - agreed.
Actually, I spent all of my High-School years in Queensland and we had Religious instruction class every week after a certain grade (can't remember which).
However, from what I remember, 95% of the class treated it as totally bogus and challenged the teacher relentlessly.
I remember it as "argument hour with a looney guy". And by sheer numbers, the class always felt right in the end.
Maybe, in many cases, having this religious education is actually making religious people look like loonies and therefore doing a service to atheism rather than theism?
(I'm not suggesting this justifies it however)
Posted by: Rhino
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August 2, 2010 2:07 AM
Hey Cath the Canberra Cook #117
Just addining to the filter Conroy line:
Did you see the article were Conroy got voted the dumbest politician in Australia? (OK it was in Zoo Weekly magazine, but hey if all the other idiots think he is one, who am I to tell them they are wrong?)
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/conroy-dubbed-dumbest-pollie-in-survey-20100801-11196.html
Runner up was that candidate for natural deselection from the politcal race Steve Fielding. Funny, both are known to be very strong Christians.
Posted by: Larry
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August 2, 2010 2:11 AM
As a public school teacher and creationist that believes in evolution (gasp), loves philosophy and admires science, I find it interesting that folks are afraid of "beliefs" being expressed in a classroom. However, I do not live in Australia. I have known very few Australians. My comments are expressed as a person who is not experienced in cultural norms and taboos of Australia.
I learned early on how to leave my beliefs at the door and understand that it is no place for a teacher to tell students how to believe something or that what they believe is wrong. That's called human right. But apparently, if I read the initial article correctly, I hinder my students' intellectual development merely by being a creationist in a classroom. *disinfects hands with politically-correct lotion soap*
That being said, where is the "infection" or "disease" in having instruction where a VIEW is expressed? Our society has advanced so much just in the past 20 years and now folks are worried about a concept which has existed for thousands of years? Really? Is the teaching of an alternate view of how the earth and its inhabitants came to be really going to lead to a decay in society with cultural norms plummeting into a collective one-sided, religious fascism? From a non-religious standpoint, if creationism was the ONLY view being taught, then I agree that this limits a student's opportunity to learn and think for him or herself. I also agree fully that there is a problem with those many faith-based teachers that cannot see passed their own piety and accept that others dare to believe something contrary to what they "know to be true" and are scared to have it questioned. It can be down-right hilarious to hear somebody defensively vomit up such horrible answers ("DNA wasn't invented then."). Uninhibited immaturity - the fear of being wrong.
Now, I also admit that I live in what is considered the infamous "Bible belt" of the U.S. In fact, the "infamous" part is my addition. I myself get sick of watching street evangelists trying through various and aggravating means to shove "truth" down people's throats whether they want it or not. What do you do with pompous street preachers? Ignore them. Just walk on by. If they hand you an inane tract, take it, smile, and toss it in a garbage bin just out of sight. Chances are, they won't care! How is it so different in education? If people have an ethical issue with beliefs showing up in a classroom, even as a required part of the curriculum (heaven forbid, oops, religious-celestial-location forbid), TEACH THE CHILDREN TO IGNORE IT.
My students' parents have apparently done that exceptionally well with most of my instruction...
but I teach Math.
Posted by: raven
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August 2, 2010 2:30 AM
Historically, it can and has. We called that time in our civilization The Dark Ages.
And it isn't teaching an alternative view. It is religious fanatics lying to other people's kids. It also is illegal in the USA.
Toxic religion like yours does huge damage every day. We lost two skyscrapers in NYC because of wacko religious fanatics. Whole societies are either stuck in a medieval period or have slid into anarchy because of religious kooks. Like you.
Listen freak. Stay the hell away from my kids.
It isn't even legal to try to indoctrinate other people's kids in some wacko death cult perversion of xianity. Besides don't you have anything better to do like hunt down witches or heretics or whatever you do for fun.
Posted by: Koshka
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August 2, 2010 2:34 AM
@spurrymoses #125
I only had RI in primary school. I remember the old catholic ladies being lovely. They only preached the love side. My friend and I just fucked around and got away with stuff that our normal teacher would have bashed us for. Ahh - good times.
We had the odd god botherer turn up at highschool. This was a bit of a shame as I probably had more intelligent things to say at this stage - but probably not. In year 8 we were all given a copy of the New Testament. Many of us then proceeded to skip through the playground, tearing out pages and throwing them on the ground yelling out "We are spreading the New Testament!". I feel bad about this now - Littering is a terrible thing to do.
I now have a child in Prep. Next year I have to decide whether to let her attend RI class or not. At this stage I intend to send her with the hope she will think for herself and hopefully come to her own logical conclusion.
Posted by: Rorschach
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August 2, 2010 2:55 AM
Larry ,
You might want to start reading for comprehension, that strawman you're beating there exists only in your head.What people are afraid of is religious fringe loons trying to brainwash under 10s with stone age myths.
Posted by: Darren
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August 2, 2010 2:59 AM
RI has always been a part of public primary (elementary) school in Australia and, I understand, N.Z too.
Most of the class just saw it as a chance to slack off for an hour. It certainly didn't have much indoctrination power.
Posted by: raven
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August 2, 2010 3:03 AM
Hey Larry. I'll make you a deal. You don't teach your religious myths to my kids in public school and I won't teach advanced molecular biology cloning techniques to your kids in your Sunday school at church.
Fair enough?
Posted by: dezinerau
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August 2, 2010 3:17 AM
This has been going on for a long time. I grew up in Queensland (am still here, in fact) and remember my parents giving me the choice to opt out of "religious education" even when I was 8 years old. Unfortunately one school I attended didn't allow me to opt out and so forced me to participate. It was horrifying, as a 10 year old at the time, being forced by threat of caning to draw a picture of a 2000 year old execution.
Anyway, I agree that this sort of class has no place in schools, but it's not just Queensland that has it. Most other states have some sort of weekly religious education class.
In fact, one school recently decided that it would offer a secular ethics class as an alternative for those students who opt out of RE. No surprise that there was a mass exodus from RE to the ethics classes, which caused the religious leaders to have a coronary and demand to be included in the ethics class (since you can't have ethics without God, apparently).
Posted by: Forbidden Snowflake
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August 2, 2010 3:29 AM
...as opposed to letting them teach their junk in a school. You see, a street is not the same as a school. On a street, any opinion can be expressed due to freedom of speech, and, consequentially, one must be prepared to filter out nonsense. A school, however, is a place where children go for reliable information, and letting crazy-venders vend their crazy there is sort of like betraying the people who expect better from the school.Posted by: shonny
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August 2, 2010 3:35 AM
Nothing new, banana-benders have a long and proud tradition of stoopid.
As the most backward state in Australia (hotly pursued by WA) Qld has always been the home of Aussie scoundrels and their minions.
Joh Bjelke-Petersen, their now fortuantely beastly dead former premier and local hobby-mafia boss, and godfucker, is a prime example of that state's rottenness.
And nothing much has really changed, just that now the corruption is not so blatant and visible anymore.
And still the banana-benders praise Joh for 'all he did for the state'!
Posted by: Great Waves
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August 2, 2010 3:37 AM
Not that long ago Insight on SBS ran a panel on this; Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cMKPVpzEV4
Posted by: Great Waves
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August 2, 2010 3:50 AM
#166 Stanton - The Indigenous Australians who were killed because of racial discrimination are in the same place as the African-Americans who were killed because of American racism: the past.
I guess someone who makes posts like you also knows that there are about as many Indigenous Australians living today as there were pre-colonization.
Nice to see that several posters are continuing the trend of Anti-Australian propaganda and idiot bigotry.
Posted by: echidna
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August 2, 2010 3:58 AM
Darren said:
I would have agreed with this except: it gives religious nuts unfettered access to vulnerable children. While many classes are relatively harmless, there is still the chance to privately tell a child they must attend church on Sunday (Father has a special message for you) - all unfiltered by family and the school administration.
This kind of unfettered access to children is abuse waiting to happen. Not only of the damaging science education variety.
Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/Cz9byV9pwviASQL_pos83OD7GI15XlNQ7CYf4kXm7n0-#6cdf4
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August 2, 2010 4:00 AM
You know, the parents are entitled to terminate enrollments or put formal complaints in to DECS. And they can also provide notes to explain that their child will not be attending these classes anymore.
I would say boycott the school in protest. And tell the kids who are stuck there that they are actually permitted to leave the classroom if they want to. (Yes, you can do that. As long as you are marked off on the roll and stay on school grounds, it's not truancy, and therefore under most school's rules, you can't actually be punished.)
There is RE at my high school, but it's an Anglican/Uniting school so it's to be expected. I only passed the course once in Year 11, because otherwise I wouldn't have enough humanities subjects to complete SACE Stage 1. We're not allowed to opt-out, even after a number of angry letters from my mother and two threats to not pay up the school fees until I was removed from the classes. The worst part? My parents weren't informed about the 'no opt-out' either.
This year, the Year 12 class are basically treating it as a free lesson. Half of them don't even show up - it has taken the threat of after-school detentions and internal suspensions to keep the rest of us there. (If I had a choice, I wouldn't be there, that's for sure!)
The most depressin part? It's taught by the same teacher who majored in Biology with minors in Physics, P.E. and Psychology at university. More than once I have found myself wondering how the hell I (who failed basic Science two years in a row and only barely passed Psychology in Year 11) can know more about the scientific theory, evolution, and biology, than a BIOLOGY TEACHER.
Posted by: Mercury
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August 2, 2010 4:18 AM
Larry @127
On the contrary, when something a student believes is factually wrong, like the earth being less than 10000 yrs old, then it is the duty of a science teacher to correct the student's misconception.
Obviously only if the issue comes up. No one is saying a teacher needs to keep a checklist of all beliefs of all students.
Posted by: Rorschach
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August 2, 2010 4:48 AM
Yes, that is exactly the point here.
Posted by: SheepdogB
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August 2, 2010 5:29 AM
Larry @127
Larry, you teach math. That's excellent. As long as you do not mention or try to convince your students of the veracity of your religious beliefs, I would have no problem whatsoever with you teaching kids math.
The reason I mention this is that I'm an American approaching 62 years of age. I started school in the mid-1950s and graduated from high school in 1966. During that time, I encountered no religious classes nor did I have any idea what, if any, religious views any of my teachers had including the ones teaching biology. In other words, Larry, my disagreement is not with you personally but with those whom you defend.
My question, rather, is why is this such a major issue? Why is it such a big deal to have the Biblical account of how the earth came to be, how life developed taught in public school classrooms?
Islam and Christianity share many things but one of the most notable is that they prosyletize aggressively, much more so than other religions. it's part of their belief systems to "convert" non-believers to their, as you put it, "view".
Another aspect of their belief systems is the idea of unquestioning acceptance of their respective sacred texts and the statements of those ordained to interpret them. In both Christianity and Islam, the idea of questioning, of putting beliefs to the test and requiring demonstration of their validity is forbidden. Evidence to the contrary, evidence that weakens or could destroy these beliefs is fought, denied, distorted, twisted through every imaginable convolution of illogic; the people presenting the evidence are attacked as Satanic, liars, or dismissed as part of some fanciful conspiracy. In other words, the belief, or "view", if you will, must be accepted as truth even if it means crippling the ability to investigate for oneself.
I referred earlier to the absence of this controversy when I was in school and why it has only been an issue recently. A few decades ago, someone in the fundamentalist Christian movement came up with a clever idea-use political power. If they could get control of local school boards, they could do a better job of insuring that these "beliefs as absolute unquestioned truths" were instilled in schoolchildren at an early age.
This is my problem with the RI classes in Australia and mandating the teaching of a religious "view" in public schools anywhere. Instruction in eucation, as had been alluded to elsewhere here, is giving the students both information and intellectual tools, and intellectual freedom necessary to learn about the world, life and the universe. These classes deprive them of those things.
Posted by: Koshka
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August 2, 2010 6:06 AM
#139. I don't think you are aware of how difficult it is to enroll a child in (state) school. If you do not live in the specific area you must apply to enter and if you are already enrolled In another school I don't think they will take you. You will probably get in the lower end Catholic school but that isn't going to help.
You can opt out but this can lead to being teased. High ideals are poor compensation to a bullied 6 year old. I have a 5 year old who will want to do what her friends do.
In my opinion it is better not to have it. You can opt in by going to Sunday School.
Posted by: Wormman
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August 2, 2010 6:49 AM
@Koshka #129 sed :
In year 8 we were all given a copy of the New Testament. Many of us then proceeded to skip through the playground, tearing out pages and
throwing them on the ground yelling out "We are spreading the New Testament!". I feel bad about this now - Littering is a terrible thing to do.
A mate of mine heard they were printed on rice paper so he spent the entire day eating his a page at a time. Magic times
Posted by: lisainthesky
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August 2, 2010 7:55 AM
Wow, as an Australian, I am so disheartened. Though to be honest, Queensland does have a bit of a reputation as the not so bright sibling.
Dawkins please come back to Australia and help promote rational thought!!! And you too PZ!!!
I urge all Australians to vote 1 for the Secular Party in the upper house, I know I will be (followed by the Sex Party).
Posted by: Stanton
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August 2, 2010 9:20 AM
You are a naive moron to think that racism is a dead institution, especially since it very much persists everywhere, tragically, especially in the United States. Hell, you're an idiot to imply that it's dead in the United States, of all places.Unless, when you say "the past," you really mean last night
I find that hard to believe, actually.Trying to point out that there was a great deal of racism and racial violence in Modern Australian history is not anti-Australian propaganda or idiot bigotry.
Suggesting that the Tasmanian Aborigines died out because the Europeans deliberately hunted and ate them is promoting bigotry and propaganda. Pointing out that there has been racism in Australia's history is not, or should I assume that the series of racially motivated attacks against Muslims last year don't count?
Posted by: Great Waves
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August 2, 2010 9:48 AM
Stanton - Rudeness, aggressiveness and noisiness are not points in your favor.
Nobody said that racism is dead, anywhere, or that there hasn't been racial violence in the history of all countries, but if you belong to a racial minority today, Australia should be among your top choices for migration. Putting words in someone else's mouth also doesn't work in your favor.
The fact that you were moved to shout out the buzzword 'Aboriginies!' (which, like other anti-Australian buzzwords, e.g. 'convicts!', 'White Australia!', 'Cronulla!', 'Pauline Hanson!' are more-or-less used exclusively by people without much knowledge or serious interest in any of those issues) is a testament to the fact that you are motivated by hatred and misinformation. Your suggestion that Aboriginies in Tasmania (where some of the worst violence really was, and no, that's not modern history) were hunted and eaten to extinction doesn't suggest you're thinking clearly.
I don't think you know anything about Australia, which probably has something to do with why you hate it so much - I wouldn't believe that you have first hand experience of the country. Like many people you're looking for somewhere you're not familiar with to attach unpleasant images to and feel outraged about to make you feel better about yourself.
You're an idiot, and no-one with access to a computer has an excuse for being as stupid as you are. The fact that you're so determined to hate other people is really, really ugly. Just responding to your vicious ugliness makes me feel like a shower.
Posted by: Jason Ball
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August 2, 2010 9:50 AM
In regards to Australia and the election, get a load of this!
http://onevote.com.au
Posted by: Larry
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August 2, 2010 9:52 AM
#132 Raven- Deal. But is it necessary to resort to name-calling? *polishes horns*
#133 dezinerau- I can understand where you are coming from. Corporal punishment is a rarity in American schools, so threats are not. I empathize with your horror as a child. It sickens me to think that it was forced upon you to draw something that you didn't want to. I like the idea of ethics being taught. In fact, especially in a state supported school, I believe that secular ethics should be taught. Regardless of my background, I personally feel that ethics (whether religious or secular) should be taught in the home. I see that this is rarely the case. Let the religious folks gripe.
Here in the U.S., in state-supported schools, students are free to speak their mind and speak loudly. Is it the same way in Queensland? Some parents here will go out of their way to defend their children, regardless of the circumstance- even, in many instances, when the students have committed crimes and admitted to such. I may seem like I'm rambling and apologize. I just want to be clear that I admit only being able to come at this from a single point-of-view. The ACLU would have a field day with public schools daring to have a religious ethics class in the first place.
Many religious people are afraid of being contradicted. If they cannot handle question and contradiction, they are obviously insecure. As for having their way in the indoctrination of instruction, I honestly don't know what to tell you. So, thank you for your response!
#134 Forbidden Snowflake- I saw your response before you ever posted and you make a great point. As I typed, I knew it was a stretch, but my reference of street preachers was more for those of us here in the southern United States. They're everywhere! And can be very oppressive. But yes, if somebody has the audacity to "preach" in a public classroom, the response here can be swift with the (albeit shaky and challenged every day) "Separation of Church and State". I feel that the self-control to hold one's tongue rolls over into the control of a classroom. A public classroom is NOT a pulpit.
#140 Mercury- Thanks for pointing that out. That particular statement is more for ethics. Even as a creationist, I am fine with the earth being over a billion years old. That's been a point of violent contention even within religious circles. I agree with you that a teacher should be proactive about content, but ready to respond to concepts such as the earth's age.
#142 SheepdogB- Thanks for providing insight into your grade school education. You raise a great question. I don't know why it is such a major deal to teach such Biblical accounts as the physical formation of the earth. I'm not very politics-savvy, but it seems like a violation of the separation of church and state. I don't see what else needs to be said there.
I do want to clarify one minor issue, one that I hear a lot. There is a difference between the Islamic and Christian concept of prosyletizing. Having read both the Q'uran and Bible, there is a difference. In the Q'uran, Muslims are instructed explicitly to convert people relentlessly. Though many Christians apparently have problems exercising this, the Bible never does instruct Christians to convert people. Many in the Christian Right (for years) have warped this into the doctrine that they have to keep cramming their beliefs down people's throats. It disgusts me. To me, it's the same with food. People are going to gag if they don't want it and rightfully so.
Posted by: raven
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August 2, 2010 10:24 AM
What is this guy's point? That he is a xian death cultist with access to people's kids as a school teacher. Big deal, maybe 20-30% of US teachers are creationists from weird cults.
It is perfectly legal. Unless they start trying to convert other people's kids or sneak their creation mythology into science classes. In a lot of places, that can and will get a teacher fired because it is illegal.
And it works both ways. Many or most teachers are not Xian death cultists, especially at the college and beyond level.
I think Larry is just trying to scare people by a not so subtle threat. "Wacko Xian religious fanatics are coming for your kids."
This is true. They explicitly target children when they can. A huge amount of creationist propaganda is aimed at brainwashing children.
Feel free to try, Larry. A teacher near where I live tried that. He lasted about 2 weeks, was fired for cause, and will never work in the public schools again.
Posted by: raven
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August 2, 2010 10:41 AM
Maybe Larry can be the next Kris Helphinstine or John Freshwater.
I don't know much about this school district. Close is hundreds of miles away but on the same coast.
I've gathered that they've had some serious problems with xian fanatics in the past. Reading between the lines, a bunch of them pulled their kids out of school after losing some battles they started and now teach their kids at an unaccredited private school.
Religion is always a reliable way to divide people. It is the best vehicle for social conflict ever invented.
Posted by: truthspeaker
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August 2, 2010 12:01 PM
He didn't suggest that. Reading comprehension fail.
Posted by: Q.E.D
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August 2, 2010 12:03 PM
_ Larry the Creationist.No Larry, the problem is letting any religion use State resources, in a school setting, in violation of separation of church and state to indoctrinate children.
Bible belt christians are first to say "what's the harm?" about christian proselytizing but imagine the howls of outrage if the religious education was being done by an Imam.
You're telling my kid that the earth was created by god and he'll go to hell if he doesn't accept Jesus as his saviour is as unacceptable as you no doubt would feel if an Imam told your kids that Mohammed, not Jesus was the last true prophet (TM) and that she's a slut who is "asking for it" if she isn't wearing a burqa.
Posted by: Great Waves
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August 2, 2010 12:06 PM
#152 truthspeaker - I stand corrected on that point. The rest stands. That poster is a repulsive human being.
Posted by: Stanton
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August 2, 2010 12:19 PM
Great Waves, it seems odd that you would accuse me of putting words in other people's mouths when you're the ones accusing me of fomenting racial hatred of Australia. Last I heard, it's not illegal, nor a crime against humanity to call indigenous Australians "aborigines"
I called you a naive moron and an idiot because you stated that racially motivated violence against African Americans occurred only in the past. That you would yourself into a self-righteous rant accusing me of being a frothing bigot through deliberately misreading my original point that racism persists even in Australia is extremely hypocritical, as well.
Quite frankly, my description of you is quite accurate if you assume that I believe my own made up claim that Europeans hunted and ate Tasmanian aborigines, especially when I made it up with the intention of creating an example of "Anti-Australian propaganda and idiot bigotry."
"Idiot bigotry" indeed.
Posted by: Stanton
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August 2, 2010 12:21 PM
Because you're bigoted against anyone who has the evil gall to say anything bad against Australia?Posted by: Stanton
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August 2, 2010 12:27 PM
I mean, it seems rather hypocritical of you to judge me as being a "repulsive human being" who "hates Australia" solely on the basis of misreading and misinterpreting 2 comments.
Posted by: woozy
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August 2, 2010 4:26 PM
Students have been told Noah collected dinosaur eggs to bring on the Ark, and Adam and Eve were not eaten by dinosaurs because they were under a protective spell.
But..., see.... er....argh ...but if....
AGGHHH THE STUPID STILL BURNS!!!!!
Look! If you're going to pretend scripture is fact and teach it as history and/or science, then you've got to regard it as history and/or science. You can't just make up stuff. I can't just make up some story that when Charles Darwin was a kid he painted his pet rabbit green to hide it from hawks just because it makes a good story. I mean, sheesh, if you *believe* this nonsense, -- if you *actually* believe this was how things actually happened and occured, then you have to admit you don't the slightest idea whether Noah collected dinosaur eggs or why the dinosaurs left Adam and Eve alone (Fuck, why didn't the wolves or tigers eat them before or *after* the fall while you're at it) any more than I have any idea what Thomas Jefferson had for breakfast the day after signing the Declaration of Independence.
Okay, okay, I know. Why should I get angry at creationists being stupid in cute and clever ways, rather when creationist are stupid in the usual ways... I dunno. I just find inconsistancy sooo .... irritating. More so than actual stupidity apparently.
Posted by: woozy
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August 2, 2010 5:09 PM
Okay, okay, I know. Why should I get angry at creationists being stupid in cute and clever ways, rather when creationist are stupid in the usual ways... I dunno. I just find inconsistancy sooo .... irritating.
Well, no-one asked but I think the thing that bugs me most about creationism (as opposed to the creationists themselves) is that it seems utterly impervious to what conjecture and inquiry is supposed to be. To answer "Where did life come from" with "God did it" is analogous (factuality notwithstanding) to answering "Where did the automobile come from" with "Karl Benz did it".
The paragraph that "Noah collected dinosaur eggs" and "Adam and Eve were protected by a magic spell" just hammers home the point that creationists don't actually consider creationism a scientific theory (at best, they don't understand the concept); even for them creationism is a fairy tale in which they can make up the details as they go along.
Posted by: Al B. Quirky
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August 3, 2010 3:39 AM
I don't know If Qld is same, but in NSW, in order to continue scripture classes, the churches had to agree that SRE be available to all other faiths, including Islam. So because of Multiculturalism, the darling of lefty-liberal politics, jihad and sharia can now be pushed in public schools. Thanx 4 nuthin', guys!
Posted by: mikee
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August 3, 2010 4:34 AM
Australians need to learn to do what New Zealanders do with creationists - we export them to the USA (bye bye Ray Comfort) lol
Posted by: mikee
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August 3, 2010 4:42 AM
Larry is a "creationist that believes in evolution"?????????????????
Sorry. does not compute.
Posted by: SheepdogB
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August 3, 2010 1:10 PM
@Larry #148
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.." Matthew 28:19.
"And He said unto them, 'Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.'" Mark 16:15.
"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." 2 Timothy 4:2.
Granted, the veracity of sacred texts is "questionable" (Want to have some fun? Tell that to a supporter of teaching creationism in public schools and try to get them to say "Well, you may be right") so I'll offer a piece of historical evidence of Christianity's evangelical agenda.
Missionaries. I doubt if you could find a country on the planet that in it's history has not been visited by Christian missionaries whose "mission" it was, and still is, to get them to abandon what they had believed and believe the Christian doctrine being presented to that-to convert them in other words.
Perhaps I should restate the problem I have with these classes a bit differently. These children have not yet been instructed in how to judge whether what is being said is logically valid or has been tested for veracity, how to think critically, how to verify through their own research whether what is being told to them is actually factual or not. This is why it is so critical to the evangelical fundamentalists that they get in the public schools, to thwart this process, to instill in these children the idea that information received from some sources (Biblical inerrancy here) is "unquestionable", "unassailable by reason" because if the children were exposed to the process of analysis and critical thinking the fundamentalists would have a much lower probability of getting them to accept their dogma. Many, such as happened to me, went to college and learned critical thinking and analysis and the scientific method there and divested ourselves of irrational beliefs then. The problem is many of these children don't ever get that opportunity and to instill in them a perspective that prevents judgement and reason to work against demonstrably incorrect superstitions constitutes not only a form of child abuse-deliberate crippling of a person's right to grow intellectually- but a surreptitious attempt at social control through the education of a population skewed toward the automatic acceptance of a particular theological doctrine.
Posted by: Icaria
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August 4, 2010 1:12 PM
That's not actually too bad. Especially when you consider that 2 of those 3 have probably never been to church. That's more a metric of the general stupidity and self-absorption of Australians, than it is one of the prevalence of crackpottery.
Posted by: Barry Johnstone
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August 5, 2010 2:42 AM
Ah -- Queensland! You've done it AGAIN! You had Joe BP and Russ Hinze and you went on from there!