Pharyngula

Posted by: Japanther | August 13, 2010 9:30 AM

I grew up in the oversized Texas-shaped buckle of the Bible Belt.

http://www.flowerstexasstyle.net/ties_and_buckles/index.html
(shudder)

Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD) | August 13, 2010 9:54 AM

@1
I feel your pain. I'm here, too. Kooks all around, and they're voting in other kooks. And the bigotry is so prevalent. It's really hard to find somebody who isn't either soaked in woo or a raging homophobe. And either way they're going to be an AGW denialist.

Posted by: raven | August 13, 2010 10:20 AM

religious kook:

I swear if he continues to insult half of America in the way he does, there will be another Civil War and the United States will disintegrate.

Yep. The fundie xians openly hate the USA and will destroy it if they can. They say so often.

If it happens, it happens despite our best efforts. I wouldn't expect it to do any good for xianity in the long run. Those living in the new xian Dark Age of North American Somalia aren't going to thank the religion for being poor, cold, hungry, and watching the rest of the world waving at us as they pass us by.

But look on the bright side, Paley. Maybe your kids and grandkids can sneak across the border into Mexico and pick fruits and tomatoes for a few pesos.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | August 13, 2010 10:27 AM

That fact that you have a need to prove yourself and your views right in this matter means that it is important to you. But why? If there is no God it makes no difference and it doesn't matter...

Yes, folks, coming up with reasoning this incredibly airtight is what religion will do to your brain.

(/Oh, and also, that's one of the reasons, right there.)

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | August 13, 2010 10:29 AM

But the fact that you are emotionally invested in the issue enough to want to attack god

Posted by: MrFire | August 13, 2010 10:34 AM

If there were no God, you mind and conscience would be indifferent to the matter.

Ooh! This is almost as smart as the Ontological Argument!

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | August 13, 2010 10:38 AM

Ooh! This is almost as smart as the Ontological Argument!

C'mon, man. I have it on good authority* Anselm worked hard on that one. Like even all morning. Let's not be given' props like that to just any poseur who comes along trying to beat him at inspidity.

(*/As in: I just pulled it out of my ass. I like to honour the theological tradition with the sincerest form of flattery.)

Posted by: raven | August 13, 2010 10:45 AM

If there were no God, you mind and conscience would be indifferent to the matter.

We don't have any problem whatsoever with god, jesus, the holy spook, invisible pink unicorns, Zeus, the Easter Bunny, Tinkerbell, or Bigfoot.

They have all been remarkably easy to live with for millennia.

It's their followers, those two legged, weird, primates that keep annoying us.

If the god babblers would just stay under their rocks and oppress and lie to each other, no one would give a rat's ass about them. No one gets too worked up about the Zeusists these days. They aren't trying to force the Olympian gods on us by destroying our society.

Posted by: Steven Dunlap | August 13, 2010 10:49 AM

Maybe some Pharyngulites can help me with this one. This post reminded me of an episode of something, but I can't remember what.

Here's the plot: a group of alien scientists is presenting the results of its space exploration to an assembly of other scientists. They explain that a planet that was about to be destroyed by it's sun going nova stashed some artifacts on a distant planet it its solar system, in order for a record of their existence to survive. Unfortunately, some of the energy from the sun exploding penetrated the capsule in which they placed these artifacts so that only one item, a motion picture, survived. The scientists had to build a projector in order to view it, which is what they were going to present at this meeting.

They give the usual anthropological caveats that this does not provide a complete picture of the dead civilization, the "artifact" can only tell a little about "what sort of people they were" by what they found entertaining, what sort of stories were meaningful to them, etc.

When they show this on their custom-built projector to the assembly we see that it's a Donald Duck cartoon.

Does anyone recognize this? Does anyone know what show, episode, etc. this is? Any hint at all?

Posted by: Steven Dunlap | August 13, 2010 10:53 AM

Re: Raven #18

We don't have any problem whatsoever with god, jesus, the holy spook, invisible pink unicorns, Zeus, the Easter Bunny, Tinkerbell, or Bigfoot.

They have all been remarkably easy to live with for millennia.

It's their followers, those two legged, weird, primates that keep annoying us.

This has to be worth a Molly for August. Is it premature to nominate this?

Posted by: GenghisFaun | August 13, 2010 10:55 AM

Everyone keeps beating me to the punch on these new godbots, and more eloquently, at that.

Just wanted to say that, whether or not they are sockpuppets, I'm going to enjoy seeing our fair piranhas unleash their sniny teeth on them!

Posted by: Doc | August 13, 2010 11:08 AM

I wonder if the little green Bob can cure this fever I seem to have caught this morning. I think I'm coming down with the flu!

Posted by: gjbivin | August 13, 2010 11:22 AM

Here's the plot: a group of alien scientists is presenting the results of its space exploration to an assembly of other scientists. They explain that a planet that was about to be destroyed by it's sun going nova stashed some artifacts on a distant planet it its solar system, in order for a record of their existence to survive. Unfortunately, some of the energy from the sun exploding penetrated the capsule in which they placed these artifacts so that only one item, a motion picture, survived. The scientists had to build a projector in order to view it, which is what they were going to present at this meeting.

It was a short story by either Isaac Asimov or Arthur C. Clarke, as I recall. The Earth had become completely covered by glaciers except for one mountain peak, where the movie had been placed by the last humans as a relic of their ancestors. A later civilization on Venus (this was written before we found out what Venus is really like) found it, but of course couldn't read the Disney credit at the end.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | August 13, 2010 11:28 AM

"Why did you feel compelled to assert that
there is no God?"

I know, right? You'd think it'd be obvious to everyone!

Posted by: Andrew G. | August 13, 2010 11:32 AM

Here's the plot: a group of alien scientists is presenting the results of its space exploration to an assembly of other scientists. They explain that a planet that was about to be destroyed by it's sun going nova stashed some artifacts on a distant planet it its solar system, in order for a record of their existence to survive. Unfortunately, some of the energy from the sun exploding penetrated the capsule in which they placed these artifacts so that only one item, a motion picture, survived. The scientists had to build a projector in order to view it, which is what they were going to present at this meeting.

They give the usual anthropological caveats that this does not provide a complete picture of the dead civilization, the "artifact" can only tell a little about "what sort of people they were" by what they found entertaining, what sort of stories were meaningful to them, etc.

When they show this on their custom-built projector to the assembly we see that it's a Donald Duck cartoon.

Does anyone recognize this? Does anyone know what show, episode, etc. this is? Any hint at all?

This closely matches the plot of Arthur C. Clarke's short story "History Lesson", published in 1949. (Except the Sun didn't go nova and the Earth wasn't destroyed, it just became uninhabitable due to cooling.)

Posted by: KG | August 13, 2010 11:47 AM

Christians are not trying to force their beliefs on Atheists, it is the other way round. Atheists insist that only Darwinian naturalism should be taught in schools and that anything else is "not science".

You're a liar. First, there are many, many Christians who recognise that the theory of evolution is as well supported as the theory that the Earth is round (but maybe you deny that, too). Second, creationism, including "intelligent design", is itself packed with lies: brazen distortions of what evolutionary theory says; dishonest quote-mining to present scientific arguments between evolutionary biologists as questioning the reality of evolution itself; lies that there are no transitional fossils, that mutations are never beneficial, etc.; pretence that their idiocy is science rather than religious dogma; the constant refrain that "Darwinism [sic] is crumbling" - a lie that has been retold constantly for a century.

Posted by: raven | August 13, 2010 11:55 AM

Atheists insist that only Darwinian naturalism should be taught in schools and that anything else is "not science".

Not just atheists. It is xians, Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, and many others. The majority of xians worldwide don't have a problem with science and evolution.

Creation myths and fairy tales aren't science. Way it is.

Paley's idiot is the same troll as Darwin's nemesis, and atheistoclast, a banned and not very sane or smart troll.

Posted by: purbrookian | August 13, 2010 12:02 PM

The trouble with the Bible Belt is, it doesn't seem capable of keeping the priests' trousers up.

Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD) | August 13, 2010 12:12 PM

It seems that people are being almost too eloquent today.

Posted by: bbgunn071679 | August 13, 2010 12:37 PM

Hopefully, if aliens did arrive here on the prairie, they'd leave behind someone (perhaps a sentient black obelisk) to tell other intelligent life forms who arrived later: "Move along now. Nothing to see here."

Posted by: Acronym Jim | August 13, 2010 12:54 PM

I loved the nod to the "Time Enough at Last" episode of the Twilight Zone.

Posted by: GenghisFaun | August 13, 2010 1:00 PM

Am I the only one who can no longer see any of the posts by Paley's Friend, or did I get blocked by PF after my sockpuppet comment?

Posted by: GenghisFaun | August 13, 2010 1:07 PM

Thanks, AJ. I just expected that if that were the case, then jwatson10000 would be gone, too. I guess it really was two idiots, although I still suspect that they were working in tandem.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | August 13, 2010 1:22 PM

Sheesh, go do a little lab work, and some fun breaks out with an apparently banned troll. AJM, :)

It did work out... Best part was having the Templeton people do a typically solid study on the burning ('n randomly silly) question of the hour...

They came through with all the elan we have come to expect from their quarter. And thus we now have a solid, peer-reviewed study in which we can positively assert that: if you pray to Bob the LGM from Ceres while standing in a properly sincere avocado patch, your cold will go away in a mere seven days...

... whereas in our control group, it often took up to a whole week.

(/I swear: I got more done this morning than the DI got done all decade... Or, okay: about as much.)

Posted by: amphiox | August 13, 2010 1:46 PM

insist that only Darwinian naturalism should be taught in schools and that anything else is "not science"

That's because this is true. In biology at least, "Darwinian" naturalism and its derivatives really is the whole of the science (at least for now), and everything that has ever been proposed to date that is not included in that umbrella has failed the empiric tests to qualify as science.

This is particularly true when one uses the preferred fundy definition of "Darwinian".

Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom | August 13, 2010 3:52 PM

My question is... Why did you feel compelled to assert that there is no God?

Posted by: AreUNorml | August 13, 2010 4:26 PM

now come on PZ, we're not all religious kooks out here in Kansas. I live in a very nice bastion of sensibility called Lawrence. The rest of the state is fucked, but there is some intelligence on the prairie.

Posted by: Birger Johansson | August 13, 2010 4:48 PM

The Cyberdyne Systems hunter-killer units have their logic circuits safely secured, and the higher functions set on "read only", presumably to avoid this kind of mess.

Of course, in this video, humans are already extinct, so there would be nothing for terminators to do.

In regard to *faulty memes* leading to disaster, the Chinese empire was ideologically unable to negotiate with foreign powers on an equal footing, since the rulers knew all foreign devils were inferior.
This may have preciptitated the failure to surrender to the mongols in time to avoid massacre (but the mongols needed no excuse to commit genocide). It certainly prevented the Manchu dynasty from modernising the country with western ideas and technology, the way the Japanese did.
There are probably many other historical examples. The Greenland vikings did not learn to live off the land from the inuits, for example, remaining dependent on agriculture that only worked during "warm" climate periods. (insert X other examples)

Posted by: Acronym Jim | August 13, 2010 5:17 PM

Aquaria@53:

In the 40s, my uncle cut off 2/3 of his finger in shop class. They were trying to get him in a car to take him to the hospital, but he was fighting it with all his strength, saying he had to go home first. Finally, he admitted why he was being so stubborn: his Mama would kill him if he went to the hospital with dirty underwear.

With all due respect to your uncle, if I chopped off 2/3 of my finger, I'd probably need to change my underwear too.

Posted by: Notorious P.A.T. | August 13, 2010 5:40 PM

Oh thanks Jafafahots.

Posted by: deriknewell | August 14, 2010 12:36 AM

People are largely a product of their environment, upbringing, and education level.

I grew up in Kansas and have since moved, but the people in Kansas are by and large good people. I'm all for being an ass to ignorant people who are proud of their ignorance and have had ample opportunity to see the light so to say, but Kansas is far from the underwear of America.

How can you possibly think that that title would goto Kansas over Texas???

Seriously.

Kansas elected nuts to the school board but had enough sense to give them the boot...Texas hasn't.

Posted by: PS9 | August 14, 2010 1:43 AM

The buybull belt is a few notches too tight, leading to gout and acid reflux.

The godbotherers are too fat, they wear a belt that's too tight making themselves uncomfortable, and they end up vomiting out their religion on others or lose circulation because they sit around doing nothing except eat and spew religion.

Posted by: hznfrst | August 14, 2010 1:52 AM

Never mind, "Nightfall" was Asimov's. It's easy to get those two mixed up sometimes.

Posted by: chaseacross | August 14, 2010 3:19 AM

I have this fantasy, and I know it's wrong and terrible and inconsistent with my humanist values and my belief in the dignity of all people... but I really wish America would have another civil war just so the blue states could whale on the red states for a good spell.

I know it would cause terrible human suffering. I know even the most radical fundie in Kansas spends 90% of their day doin' the same things we all do. But then I get some news from Congress or listen to some conesrvative talk radio and I just get that visceral desire to go south of the Mason-Dixon line and pay those voters back for all the hurt their elected representatives keep causing nation-wide. Apparently even after the oil spill, they just aren't getting the message.

Again, I know war is a terrible thing, and ought never to be hoped for... Does anyone else struggle with these feelings?

Posted by: KG | August 14, 2010 6:40 AM

In the book we eventually fight them off using rockets powered by a sequence of nukes set of aft and firing neutron beams at the pachyderm mother ships.

How unimaginative. A talented writer would surely have made the Deep Throat misinformation key to pachyderms defeat in some way (e.g. human captives using fellatio to pass messages, or an anti-pachyderm pathogen).

Posted by: Canuck | August 14, 2010 9:54 AM

To # 67 and #68
Mixing up Asimov and Clark?
Shreeek!
Heresy!
Clutch pearls and faint.
Oops, missed the chaise longue.

Posted by: blf | August 14, 2010 11:34 AM

How can people get Arthur C. Asimov mixed up with Isaac Clarke?

No, no, it's Ray K. Asimov, Ursula Clarke, Isaac C. Guin, Roger Le Bradbury, and Arthur Zelazny.

Posted by: Jeff | August 15, 2010 6:19 PM

@chaseacross: Again, I know war is a terrible thing, and ought never to be hoped for... Does anyone else struggle with these feelings?

I don't want to see a civil war; I'd rather cordon off several of the southern states, airlift the few liberals, quarantine the fundies there and prohibit their reproduction, hopefully breeding their maladaptive traits out of the genome.

But I got hounded off of this blog about a year ago for suggesting it.

Posted by: Jeff | August 16, 2010 9:30 AM

You certainly weren't banned.

No, you're right; I wasn't.

I was, however, attacked repeatedly, by several individuals, for things I didn't actually say (in addition to being attacked for what I did say) - so I walked away. If you want to describe that as choosing "to run away because you can't hack it", John - you've pretty much argued my point.

The sad thing is that just a couple of months prior, I was the fair-haired boy for having attended that creationist lecture in Boston and submitting a guest post about it. You (collectively) change like the wind around here. I've seen you do it to others as well.

I take no pleasure in saying this (and I hate having to agree with them), but the Christians are not entirely wrong about you people (and Ed Brayton's regulars, for that matter). You turn on your own the moment someone fails to toe the party line, then ridicule that person for being "weak", or whatever - and PZ simply allows it.

Of course, I realize I'm opening myself up to attack merely for having said this much.

Posted by: PS9 | August 16, 2010 10:06 AM

chaseacross (#70) said:

"I have this fantasy, and I know it's wrong and terrible and inconsistent with my humanist values and my belief in the dignity of all people... but I really wish America would have another civil war just so the blue states could whale on the red states for a good spell.

I know it would cause terrible human suffering."

You won't have to wait long, only a few more years.

The abundance of food is made possible by commercial fertilizers, most of which are made from petroleum products. When oil hits $150, $200, and then $300 per barrel, food prices will skyrocket and the riots will begin. Those who are clueless about growing food will starve to death in the cities or scatter into the countrysides, killing and stealing.

On the brighter side, worldwide imperialism will soon be a thing of the past because countries can no longer send their militaries anywhere.

Posted by: KG | August 16, 2010 11:50 AM

I've never seen the regulars here attack you, for any reason.

Then you haven't looked. I'm not going to dig it out for you, but find the thread on the closing of the forum on richarddawkins.net. I and others have also disagreed vehemently with PZ because he understands fuck-all about European politics, and in particular, the "secularist" (in fact, racist) populist far right (Condell, Geert Wilders, etc.).

Posted by: Jeff | August 17, 2010 10:33 AM

"Blowback" is one thing. What I experienced was something else again - and, as I say, it wasn't the first time I'd seen it happen.

Posted by: SCorinth | August 18, 2010 3:14 AM

I just want to add my voice to that of JeffEyges. I love PZ's choice of topics and writing style, but he is hardly the pit bull of the atheist movement. That honor would belong to some of his followers. I mean, holy shit! I've been saddened by Molly after Molly going to people who don't show any particular clarity of thought or logic, but manage to cover it up with plenty of metaphorical spittle on their keyboards. People here should value a sharp mind more than a sharp tongue. At least PZ has both.

Anyway, I agree with JeffEyges, and it'll probably be a long while before I care enough to comment again.

Posted by: Ichthyic | August 18, 2010 3:40 AM

I've never seen the regulars here attack you, for any reason.

blind man is blind.

Many of us have disagreed with him on numerous occasions. I know I have (usually happens about once a month).

your ignorance won't be doing your argument here much good I expect.

Posted by: Ichthyic | August 18, 2010 3:47 AM

I take no pleasure in saying this (and I hate having to agree with them), but the Christians are not entirely wrong about you people (and Ed Brayton's regulars, for that matter

"you people"

ROFLMAO

puling whiny weasel sez what?

Posted by: Buffybot | August 18, 2010 3:53 AM

Jeff, perhaps you'd feel better if you went and made a fort out of blankets and pillows and the kitchen table and hid in it where the nasty commenters can't see you. Take a flashlight and some cookies.

Posted by: Ichthyic | August 18, 2010 4:01 AM

*sigh*

yeah, Jeff is one of the good guys.

I just can't resist poking fun at someone who acts like such a cute little puppy!

seriously, sounds trite and all, but thicker skin, eh old boy?