Pharyngula

Posted by: Dr. I. Needtob Athe | September 6, 2010 10:04 AM

Step on a crack(er)
Break Jesus' back.

Posted by: Frank b | September 6, 2010 10:06 AM

Now, now, PZ. You are just jealous. He was willing to put himself in harms way Maybe he has a death wish or something. Whereas you have all sorts of reasons to live, and thus attack your cracker from a place of safety.

Posted by: vanharris | September 6, 2010 10:11 AM

PZ, it wasn't "just a cracker". The priest had cast a spell on it, or said the magic words, so it was a magic cracker .

Posted by: kraut | September 6, 2010 10:14 AM

Hey, would you break the whips in a private S&M club?
See...
If you don't like the ambiance - just don't go there. You can break the friggin crackers outside the church all you want to.

Posted by: davidrsmorris | September 6, 2010 10:20 AM

If it were outside of the building, in a public place, to incite people to attack him, with people there to record the attack, I think that inciting violence against oneself would be a great way of demonstrating the bent morality of religion.

Posted by: daveandfiona@live.co.uk | September 6, 2010 10:20 AM

Not so long ago, a priest in Canada gave such a cracker to a dog. A Dog, I tell you! How can a dog possibly indulge in such an act of cannibalism-by-proxy?

Posted by: commanista | September 6, 2010 10:27 AM

‎"Now, take and eat Jesus' body. Such a strange religion. But they really contemporised it and mainstreamed it so it never felt weird. Growing up I never sat there and went like 'What do you mean we're eating somebody?' And then if you'd be like 'Well we're not really eating somebody, this is symbolic.' You'd get like smacked around, and like 'This ain't symbolic, they literally transubstantiate that wafer into JESUS CHRIST.' And you're like, 'Wait... So zombies ARE cool?' and then you get smacked again." - Kevin Smith

Former Catholics are the best at explaining their weird, weird religion.

Posted by: Newfie | September 6, 2010 10:31 AM

How can a dog possibly indulge in such an act of cannibalism-by-proxy?

Not cannibalism to the dog now, is it?
Caninibalism?
Either way, the dog has a taste for flesh, and will protect its owner from zombie jews.

Posted by: Ray Moscow | September 6, 2010 10:44 AM

I agree that one doesn't protest religious silliness in church. One leaves church and protests outside, or better yet just does something more interesting, like sleeping in.

I think it's a bit like people loudly commenting during a movie. Sure, it's your right to comment, but do that at home, or outside.

Basically it's the same right not to have hecklers during a science presentation.

Posted by: Ray Moscow | September 6, 2010 10:49 AM

@16: Yeah, it was in the news, but it was an Anglican priest, and they don't (usually) believe in a literal transubstantiation anyway.

PZ covered it already: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/07/god_hates_dogs.php

Posted by: Ragutis | September 6, 2010 10:50 AM

Posted by: Dr. I. Needtob A | September 6, 2010 10:37 AM

daveandfiona@live.co.uk - Not so long ago, a priest in Canada gave such a cracker to a dog. A Dog, I tell you! How can a dog possibly indulge in such an act of cannibalism-by-proxy?

Is that documented on the Web?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7910177/Vicar-gives-Holy-Communion-to-dog.html

PZ mentioned it here.

Posted by: hznfrst | September 6, 2010 10:56 AM

I have to differ with #12 and #17. Years ago there were a series of protests by gay activists who would stand up in the middle of catholic services and ask "Why are you killing us?" because of the church's anti-homosexual bullshit.

Sometimes you need to bring it right into the enemy's face to get people to listen, and listen they did. *Of course* it was disrespectful, but it was also necessary!

This cracker-crumbling incident was small potatoes by comparison but I applaud the kid for his nerve if nothing else. It would be great if it caught on and more people broke the "respect barrier" which inhibits mockery of the supremely stupid wherever it occurs.

Posted by: Ray Moscow | September 6, 2010 11:04 AM

@hznfrst @23: Yeah, there were similar protests recently in some Irish churches over the child-abuse reports, and I have to agree with the need in cases like that.

And churches don't usually have an open Q&A session after sermons, either, where doubts and objections can be expressed.

But for general religious silliness, it seems too rude to counter it by heckling or whatever during the ceremonies. Ridicule it on your own or neutral turf, certainly.

Posted by: jaranath | September 6, 2010 11:21 AM

No, I think this is a valid DBAD moment. Our beef is with how they behave outside church. This would mostly feed their persecution delusion, and under the right circumstances could BE persecution. I'm not sure it accomplishes anything that can't be accomplished better elsewhere. Like in a kitchen in Minnesota.

Posted by: Andrés Diplotti | September 6, 2010 11:25 AM

There's daring to be a "dick," and there's not having an ounce of common sense.

Say you want to denounce the business practices of McDonald's. What can you do? You can write reader's letters. You can organize protests and demonstrations. You can give fliers away at the entrance of a McDonald's eatery dressed as a grungy Ronald McDonald. But you DON'T stop people from entering, and you certainly DON'T barge into the place and pour fertilizer in the fryer.

Posted by: mmelliott01 | September 6, 2010 11:29 AM

Ing@26: If we are to consign dramatic hyperbole to the dustbin, I will require the signature of three additional authorities on rhetoric, yourself not included. Also, $500 cash to be left in selfsame dustbin at midnight by a tall man with one black shoe.

Posted by: steve | September 6, 2010 11:35 AM

You're blowing it out of proportion. That church isn't nearly THAT bad. It's histrionics to compare Eucharist with slave auctions.

1800 +: The Roman Catholic church's Sacred Congregation of the Index continued to place many anti-slavery tracts on their Index of Forbidden Books in order to prevent the public from reading them.

1839: Pope Gregory XVI wrote in Supremo Apostolatus that he admonishes and adjures "in the Lord all believers in Christ, of whatsoever condition, that no one hereafter may dare unjustly to molest Indians, Negroes, or other men of this sort;...or to reduce them to slavery..." The operative word is unjustly. The Pope did not condemn slavery if the slaves had been captured justly -- that is, they were either criminals or prisoners of war. Roman Catholic Bishops in the Southern U.S. determined that this prohibition did not apply to slavery in the U.S. To their credit, various other popes did order or otherwise influence the emancipation of slaves that they considered to be unjustly enslaved.
1866: The Holy Office of the Vatican issued a statement in support of slavery. The document stated that

"Slavery itself...is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law...The purchaser [of the slave] should carefully examine whether the slave who is put up for sale has been justly or unjustly deprived of his liberty, and that the vendor should do nothing which might endanger the life, virtue, or Catholic faith of the slave."

Some commentators suggest that the statement was triggered by the passage of the 13th Amendment in the U.S. Others claim that the document referred only to a "particular situation in Africa to have slaves under certain conditions," and not necessarily to the situation in the U.S.

1873: Pope Pius IX was concerned about the "wreched Ethopians in Central Africa." He prayed that "Almighty God may at length remove the curse of Cham [Ham] from their hearts." God's curse on Ham was that the Canaanite people would be forever enslaved. Some theologians had long used this Biblical passage to justify enslavement of Africans.

Posted by: Q.E.D | September 6, 2010 11:43 AM

"And speaking of Dungeons & Dragons, a common plot element in roleplaying games is that the characters encounter slavers or a slave market and must decide whether to stop and free the slaves, thereby risking the wrath of powerful people and possibly endangering whatever mission they are otherwise involved with."

only if you're a panty-waisted, pansy, Paladin.

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/lqw8EGQ.r5QJDXv_RIosWVhC94kF3TXL#89657 | September 6, 2010 11:45 AM

Ironically "hostia" in Spanish means both "host" and "slap."

Posted by: jafafahots | September 6, 2010 11:52 AM

On the other hand in the case of Jehovah's Witnesses coming to your door, they're on YOUR turf, crashing YOUR party, so it's perfectly fine (even advisable, and definitely effective) to answer the door clad only in a jockstrap.

Posted by: Balstrome | September 6, 2010 11:56 AM

Last Friday the Westminster diocese pinged an email to all Catholic school administrators: “URGENT” read the subject line, “PLEASE POASS (sic) TO THE HEADTEACHER AS SOON AS POSSIBLE”. The text was a letter from Archbishop Vincent Nichols, pleading with all heads to organise a school party to attend the Saturday event from 12 noon until 9 pm.

link

And lets hope it rains hard and long on that day.

Posted by: hznfrst | September 6, 2010 11:58 AM

#32, I had the same reaction from someone our neighborhood considered to be a 'liberal' lutheran pastor when I asked him why jesus didn't tell people the earth was round and orbited the sun. He couldn't answer and it was hilarious to see him squirm (yes, I was sadistic with god-floggers even at that age).

Posted by: MarkNS | September 6, 2010 12:02 PM

@jafafahots #39

One of my best friends did just that when we were in our early twenties. He spotted the JWs coming to his door at about 9am on one of the rare Saturdays he wasn't hungover. He stripped down to his tighty-whities, lit a cigarette and opened a beer. They knocked...he flung the door open, took a drag on the cig and a guzzle of beer, burped and asked "What can I do for you folks?"...they mumbled something and slunk away, never to darken his door again.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 6, 2010 12:08 PM

MarkNS:

He stripped down to his tighty-whities, lit a cigarette and opened a beer.

The same works for Mormon missionaries.

When my parents were living in Idaho, they had a neighbor who would answer his door buck-assed nekkid with a shotgun in hand. Kept their neighborhood free from missionaries for over a year.

Posted by: raven | September 6, 2010 12:13 PM

As we can see from this and other incidents, Christianity is a violent and vindictive faith.

That has been true for the entire history of the religion. It still is although these days it has been reduced by the secular authorities making arbitrary religious violence illegal.

Up until recently being an apostate or heretic could get one killed. In parts of the third world being accused of being a witch will get you killed. And xian terrorism is a persistent problem in the USA.

Posted by: Q.E.D | September 6, 2010 12:34 PM

On the other hand in the case of Jehovah's Witnesses coming to your door, they're on YOUR turf, crashing YOUR party, so it's perfectly fine (even advisable, and definitely effective) to answer the door clad only in a jockstrap.

When they pestered me in New Orleans, I introduced myself as Beelzebub.

When they pestered me in London, my docile Collie must have sensed my animosity because she turned into bloody Cujo and scared the living hell out of them.

If Jehova's Witnesses darken my doorstep or are in a public forum, they are fair game but I don't go to their god-bothering headquarters to disturb them in their house.

Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip | September 6, 2010 12:43 PM

Next thing you know, people will start interrupting the slave auctions at slave markets!

Yes, that's totally equivalent to interrupting a bunch of people eating terrible bread.

Posted by: cag | September 6, 2010 1:10 PM

But do they have mini wafers for those who prefer baby jesus?

Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | September 6, 2010 1:25 PM

chunkdz;

Sorry, sir/madam. Its the bell-boy. He says that you accidentally left your brain at reception, and took a double measure of false equivilency with a side order of whining persecution complex with you by mistake...

Posted by: Forbidden Snowflake | September 6, 2010 1:54 PM

Sastra:

The only rule he broke I think was that he was too "old" according to the sign.

Posted by: Franklin Percival | September 6, 2010 2:20 PM

There are surely enough problems in real life (I've met two or three this afternoon) without irritating the inchoate and incoherent?

Posted by: Felix | September 6, 2010 2:38 PM

By slapping the young man, the priest grossly overstepped the rules of woo.

Christ manifests substantially in the cracker. The priest would have been completely within his rights to slap the man around substantially. But alas, he chose to interpret justified anger literally, thus committing grave heresy, in the personal substantial Presence of The Lord, nonetheless.

The Church should investigate him for proper understanding and proclamation of the Faith. With Herr Ratzinger in charge, being ex ex officio head of the former Inquisition, it might not be such a pleasant stay in the catacombs of the Vatican.

Hey, a man can fantasize, right?

Posted by: opposablethumbstoo | September 6, 2010 2:45 PM

Entonces, un joven se quitó la hostia consagrada de la boca y la rompió delante del cura. Éste respondió dándole una bofetada al festero, que le devolvió el golpe.

"A young man then took the consecrated host out of his mouth and broke it/crumbled it in front of the priest. He responded by punching the celebrant, who hit him back."

I agree with the comments that this was not the smartest move; just wanted to note that according to this report the priest threw the first punch.

Posted by: chunkdz | September 6, 2010 2:50 PM

Sorry, morons. Your attempts at rationalization are lame at best.

The triceratops was for kids. That's why it's in the kiddie room.

The wafer is for the communion sacrament. That's why it was done in church.

PZ is simply exhibiting type A authoritarian behavior. PZ has issued a proclamation that his minions are not to act irreverently while in the enemy's house.

You need not question him, fools, and he does not need your pointless excuses and rationalizations. You need only obey. He is far wiser than you and thus he does not need to adhere to his own rules.

Now go and torment Kent Hovind lest you incur your leader's wrath.

Posted by: Wesley Dodson | September 6, 2010 2:52 PM

Really?

Posted by: Sastra | September 6, 2010 2:59 PM

chunkdz #67 wrote:

PZ is simply exhibiting type A authoritarian behavior. PZ has issued a proclamation that his minions are not to act irreverently while in the enemy's house.

Another major point where your point breaks down is that in this post, PZ is not saying that it's wrong for us to trespass into churches, but it's okay when he does it.

I am going to guess that PZ would be fine with any of us riding the triceratops. So it's not a matter of "do what I say, not what I do" -- which is what you seem to be implying.

The question then comes down to whether there is a critical distinction between what the young man in Valencia did, and PZ being too old to sit on what was meant to be sit on. I think there is, and your arguments to the contrary aren't persuasive. They seem pretty strained. The form the "irreverence" takes, and under what circumstances, is critical.

Posted by: chunkdz | September 6, 2010 3:24 PM

Our "leader" is free to make rules and break them as he pleases, and so are you, so your argument is silly.

Of course we are all free to do it. I'm just pointing out that actually DOING it is classic authoritarian behavior.

Now "fly my pretties"! as your leader says. Go disrupt a poll at some religious website or something. Be sure to report back to your leader with the results.

Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | September 6, 2010 3:38 PM

chunkdz;

You appear to be under the misaprehension that we Pharyngulites are somehow compelled to obey PZ. I do not want to strain your capacity to deal with reality, but PZ does not possess some real world equivilent of the One Ring. Nor does he possess magic mind control powers. None of us are forced to do anything PZ suggests, or obey any putative prohibitions he may lay down.

Indeed, disagreeement with PZ is a commonplace and trivial occurence. This site is frequented by atheist free thinkers, as a rule we are not amenable to being ruled with an iron fist. It is not as though PZ is some fire-breathing totalitarian megalomaniac in any case. A person really has to be grotesquely offensive or staggeringly stupid before PZ bans them. Your own comments are a case in point. PZ has neither silenced you nor edited what you have posted, despite your penchant for flailing insults aimed at PZ himself and everyone who frequents this site.

I would say that your argument is undermined by this point, but frankly you never presented an argument in the first place.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | September 6, 2010 4:06 PM

Please do not presume to lecture me, moron.

I won't lecture, dumbass, I'll just tell you you're a fucking troll with idiotic ideas. Now please fuck yourself sideways with a rusty machete.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 6, 2010 4:14 PM

Seriously dude, you should go look up the word hyperbole. And maybe read Bob Altermeyer's book on authoritarianism while you are at it.

Now shut up and go please your leader by signing the "Free Gregory Kroger" petition.

I've gotta say, I don't think we've had this big of an idiot around here in a while.

I love the ones who are sharp enough to use spell check and have a basic grasp on grammatical rules, but not quite smart enough to either 1) read for comprehension &/or 2) realize that the more they speak, the dumber they look.

Seriously, chunk, do yourself a favor and quit while you're ahead. It's okay if you don't understand the difference between an interactive "museum" exhibit and a church service, but attempting to insult us (however lamely) isn't going to prove your point.

Posted by: chunkdz | September 6, 2010 4:39 PM

Seriously, chunk, do yourself a favor and quit while you're ahead. It's okay if you don't understand the difference between an interactive "museum" exhibit and a church service, but attempting to insult us (however lamely) isn't going to prove your point.

First, moron, thank you for admitting the validity of my assertion.

Second, it was not an "interactive museum exhibit".

Third, of course I understand the difference between breaking the rules at a Christian church and breaking the rules at a Christian museum. PZ has just told you to not do the former.

Now obey, fool, or be humiliatingly trotted out like the "amateur" from Valencia.

Posted by: Marc Alan | September 6, 2010 4:51 PM

More on predatory friars here: http://www.theamericanmag.com/article.php?article=2506

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 6, 2010 4:58 PM

chunk:
You're so cute when you get grumpy. Oh, are you mad because you don't have anyone to do your bidding just like PZ? Jealousy is such an ugly emotion.

I'm just pointing out that actually DOING it is classic authoritarian behavior.

As others have pointed out, you seriously have no idea what you're talking about.

You do realize that 1) hypocritical behavior =/= "authoritarianism", no matter how much it offends your delicate sensibilities and 2) a blogger offering an opinion and allowing others to express differing opinions is about as far away from "authoritarianism" as you can get, right?

Please, for my own gratification, show me some specific examples of PZ acting like a dictator. (But bear in mind that because some of us may choose to crash a poll, there is no punishment for those of us who do not participate.)

You might also want to look up the definition of "authoritarian" before we go too much farther. Otherwise you and I will just be talking past each other and I've no patience for morons today.

Second, it was not an "interactive museum exhibit".

The damned thing has a saddle, dipshit.

Now obey, fool, or be humiliatingly trotted out like the "amateur" from Valencia.

What bug stung your ass? If I did something comparable and PZ disagreed with my actions, so be it.

You do realize that there is no harm in saying "this guy was wrong", right? PZ isn't calling to have him jailed or stoned to death or whatever tortures you godlings are getting your rocks off on this week.

Posted by: Hurin, Nattering Nabob of Negativism. | September 6, 2010 5:17 PM

@ 80 Jockaira

Oh my molluscan overlord! Its even more beautiful than it was in my dreams!!!

(begins weeping uncontrollably)

Posted by: Hurin, Nattering Nabob of Negativism. | September 6, 2010 5:54 PM

@ Chunk

First, moron, thank you for admitting the validity of my assertion.

Reading comprehension: it'll help you.

Second, it was not an "interactive museum exhibit".

I'm sorry, what was it?

Third, of course I understand the difference between breaking the rules at a Christian church and breaking the rules at a Christian museum. PZ has just told you to not do the former.

Then maybe you understand that the creation "museum" is not billing itself as a "christian museum". It is claiming to be a real museum with dioramas that illustrate factual information. Real museums don't pearl clutch when someone makes fun of their exhibits, or demand respect for their exhibits (excepting that people not vandalize them of course) because they have no reason to fear the ridicule. Not only is PZ's dinosaur ride not the equivalent of the eucharist desecration , but your comparison is actually unflattering for the creation "museum".

Second, you may have missed this piece from above:

As we can see from this and other incidents, Christianity is a violent and vindictive faith. While it may be just a cracker, fanatics will respond with totally inappropriate physical viciousness, and it's simply not worth getting hurt over a 'magic' cookie.

Can you explain how that fits in with your assertion that PZ is some kind of tyrant?

Now obey, fool, or be humiliatingly trotted out like the "amateur" from Valencia.

Why don't you go back to playing with your dolls (or action figures). I'm pretty sure you are qualified to put words in their mouths.

Posted by: Dania | September 6, 2010 6:07 PM

Hey, Mabus #2, could you please fuck off?

Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | September 6, 2010 6:27 PM

dxv515 @ 90;

Hey ING is that dump done before you kill the Pope or afterward?

No one here is talking about murdering anyone with the exception of you.

Have you given up your twisted desire to kill the Pope or do you still have those Pope killing cravings?

What is it with you and your Papal murder fetish?

In all seriousness, everytime you turn up here you rant about atheists planning to murder the Pope. I think that you should seriously consider seeking professional help.

Is it a celebration dump or preparation dump? Please film it & post on youtube. Show your face so we all know it is you.

Well, that was creepy.

Please stop hitting on ING. It is unseemly and unsolicited behaviour, and I doubt that you are ING's type...

Posted by: Dania | September 6, 2010 6:32 PM

Why Dania?

Because... you're either a Poe-troll or you seriously need help. :-/

Posted by: MadScientist | September 6, 2010 6:53 PM

About as dumb as that dumbass clown who goes into churches and honks his horn. They don't seem to understand the difference between telling people that what they believe is bullshit and trying to screw up their day and annoy them. Then again a lot of the religious don't understand the difference between being persecuted and being told that what they believe is bullshit - so there's stupid on both sides. As Rene Descartes put it: La stupidite est la chose du monde la mieux partagee. Or was that "Le bon sense"?

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 6, 2010 7:06 PM

The triceratops was for kids. That's why it's in the kiddie room.

ATTENTION EVERYONE: Chunkdz would like you all to know that crackers that are supposed to be Jesus are just as stupid as kiddie riding dino exhibits.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | September 6, 2010 7:19 PM

So riding a triceratops in a creation museum is equivalent to desecrating a Jebus cracker. What a fucktard chunky is.

Posted by: tresmal | September 6, 2010 7:25 PM

You'll have to ask PZ why certain Christian institutions are off limits.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 6, 2010 7:27 PM

So, chunk, you feel like answering my questions yet? Or maybe you'd like to provide us with a working definition of "authoritarian"*?

I should let you know that one of my pet peeves is when someone consistently misuses language because they are too stupid/lazy to use a dictionary. Just because you want "authoritarian" to mean "hypocritical" doesn't mean that it does.

PS: COME ON, DO IT! DO THE TRUFFLE SHUFFLE!

*I'll be honest: I'm not done laughing at you yet.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 6, 2010 7:37 PM

chunk:

That's fairly typical of authoritarians.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmiiaFY8JTt7Z5FJ9SJQlrrN-uxsCz_0yw | September 6, 2010 7:48 PM

I think this Chunk troll is having the time of his life.

'OMG!!! People are paying attention to me!!!1eleventy!! Any attention is good attention, even if they are laughing at me...Well, I'll show them by tossing lame insults at them...big stupid heads!!!!!'

I'd feel sorry for it if it wasn't such a hate filled little thing.

Posted by: tresmal | September 6, 2010 7:57 PM

It is completely subjective...

Posted by: chunkdz | September 6, 2010 8:08 PM

PZ has neither silenced you nor edited what you have posted, despite your penchant for flailing insults aimed at PZ himself and everyone who frequents this site.

Of course not. Why should he bother when he's got an endless stream of sycophants like yourself to defend his perimeter?

Shouldn't you be sending money to the Gregory Koger legal fund about now? Your master will be most pleased.

Posted by: chunkdz | September 6, 2010 8:21 PM

By acknowledging that the acts are not equivalent you are acknowledging that determining that one is more wrong than the other is not arbitrary but can be reasonably and sensibly done by considering the different natures and contexts of the acts.The reason that most of the commenters agree with PZ on this matter is that it is an obviously reasonable distinction.

If it were so obviously reasonably distinct then PZ would not need to write a post about it.

I'm so glad to hear that most of you minions are on board. For those who aren't, (like the amateur from Valencia) let this thread serve as a warning to you. PZ will insult and mock you if you don't adhere to his standard. If there is to be any desecration done, it's PZ's way or the highway.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 6, 2010 8:27 PM

You're still not answering my questions, chunk.

Why should he bother when he's got an endless stream of sycophants like yourself to defend his perimeter?

You do realize that this isn't a physical space, right? ... Right?

You are doing exactly what you claim we're not allowed to do: dissent. It's a sleazy, underhanded tactic to claim that those who are in disagreement with you are stifling your free speech. Been hanging out with teabaggers or persecuted Christians lately?

And *applause* for using a big word like "sycophant"! I didn't think you had it in ya, but there you go, provin' me wrong.

Posted by: maddogdelta | September 6, 2010 8:31 PM

I know, there are reasons...

But I still have a hard time calling those communion cardboards "crackers"

Crackers are yummy, and are wonderful with cheese.

Communion wafers make cardboard taste good, and would ruin good cheese.

Posted by: tresmal | September 6, 2010 9:00 PM

If it were so obviously reasonably distinct then PZ would not need to write a post about it.

BTW are you still in high dudgeon about those stolen emails?

Posted by: tresmal | September 6, 2010 10:16 PM

Also, no one here eats babies, wrapped in bacon or otherwise.

Posted by: chunkdz | September 6, 2010 10:54 PM

We aren't really his minions. We just think it's a funny thing to say...These things are called "in-jokes". Not getting them is a way of marking yourself as an outsider, which is fine, because I'm sure you don't want to be one of poopyhead's laughing minions. We're strange and upsetting, and may toss you to the squids.

I don't doubt that this is really how you see yourself - as some kind of "in-the-know" insider, "strange and upsetting" to the uninitiated and the non-freethinkers. Sort of like a sorority sister during fall rush.

But truth is you are an entirely predictable bunch, and you exhibit exactly the kind of group think I'd expect from such a drooling mess of morons. Just look at the way you presume to speak for the whole group. Pathetic. You obviously gave up any entitlement to free-thought that you ever had in favor of letting your leader empower himself by molding you into the proper kind of acolyte.

Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | September 6, 2010 11:15 PM

chunkdz;

May I suggest taking a step back and looking at the position you have managed to place yourself in calmly and rationally? You have just compared PZ to Castro. And why? Because, apparently, holding a private opionion is somehow equivilent to an oppressive and authoritarian system of government, and writing a blog equates to being a dictator.

This is perhaps the single most insupportable argument* I have ever seen. You must see that you are on a hiding to nothing with this?

To clarify the weakness of your argument, here is the wikipedia definition of Political Authoritarianism and the definition of Authoritarian Personality Types. As youy can see, neither definition applies to PZ's behaviour as evidenced by his blog.

* Outside creationist claims about the age of the Earth and testimonials about the 'efficacy' of homeopathy, of course.

Posted by: chunkdz | September 6, 2010 11:40 PM

Re: the comparison to Castro - stop it. I clearly was not saying PZ's as bad as Castro, or PZ is evil like Castro.

Any idiot can see the comparison was that PZ and Castro both exhibit the same authoritarian trait.

Do any of you minions at least rise to the level of idiot?

Posted by: Hurin, Nattering Nabob of Negativism. | September 6, 2010 11:57 PM

@ Chunk, 129

Any idiot can see the comparison was that PZ and Castro both exhibit the same authoritarian trait.

How do they have the same authoritarian trait? PZ wrote a post on his blog. How does that make him an authoritarian, and did he have the right to make the post?

I'm going to hector you with this question until you answer it unambiguously.

Do you or do you not think PZ has the right to exercise free speech?

Posted by: Hurin, Nattering Nabob of Negativism. | September 7, 2010 12:34 AM

@Chunk

Wow. I am so impressed by you Pharyngulites.

Yawn...I can assure you the feeling is mutual.

So, Does PZ have the right to post things on his blog or does he not?

We have already established that he isn't establishing rules that he himself does not follow, as you yourself admitted that the triceratops ride was not comparable to the church service interruption.

We have already established that the only thing PZ has done to "the amateur" was to write a mildly critical blog post about him (and if you've read Pharyngula for more than a week you know this was mild by PZ standards).

We have already established that no one on this blog is in any way compelled to follow PZ's suggestion not to disrupt church services.

We have established that one of the reasons that PZ encourages us not to disrupt church services is related to our own physical safety.

How does this blog post have anything to do with authoritarianism again?

And what are your views on PZ's right to free expression?

I'm all ears jackass.

Posted by: Hurin, Nattering Nabob of Negativism. | September 7, 2010 1:43 AM

@ Chunk 134

So let me get this straight, you think that PZ Myers is a benevolent dictator who controls us with Molly awards?

Uh, so... do you think he'd be pissed off if he found out that I read other blogs?

Incidentally, you might want to share your theories about "internet dictators" with your doctor before you go telling anyone else. They might be relevant to his responsibility to you...

I'm not going to go interrupt a church service just to prove my thought process is independent of PZ (I wasn't going to anyway, I hate churches). I'll just refer you to a comment I wrote you earlier instead:

PZ is my "leader" in exactly the same way Paul Krugman is. They are both intelligent guys whose opinions I actively seek. Conflating my relationship to them with my relationship to Barack Obama, or the mayor of my town is stupid.

And you are so very, very, stupid. I don't even know where to begin. You've just discredited yourself so thoroughly though, that I don't really need to bother anymore, and I don't expect that I'll post to you any further.

Good luck freeing the inter-webs from tyranny comrade!

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 7, 2010 1:59 AM

Does anyone know what PZ's stance on jumping off of cliffs is?

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/7IW3Q_E3tsKloSlnYxkYxNayMxiHG7hu.xyaWoTqcg--#e7f3e | September 7, 2010 2:07 AM

I'm sure that PZ is aware that this herd of cats is as intractable as any that has ever passed through his labs. The alpha members of the herd mark their territories mostly verbally with relevant, cogent, and informed comments. The prime alpha member can also use some performance pieces to secure his leadership. There are hundreds of blogs out there with larger or smaller attached herds. Some herds are like cattle, some like lemmings, some like sheep; the hardest congregation to control is cats. We enjoy one another's company, and even the occasional clawing we get for intemperate, ill considered, or stupid remarks. Nobody is forced to remain with this pack, and there is surely another out there that is more amenable to a contrarian's needs.

plumberbob

Posted by: spacefall | September 7, 2010 2:48 AM

Huh. Clearly today's troll never saw that post about the video games // art thing.

Posted by: acastcia | September 7, 2010 3:11 AM

@ chunk

You really, really need to get yourself a Defuckulator(Billy Conolly).

Posted by: erminate | September 7, 2010 7:16 AM

Don't you love it when morons try to tell you what you think? Usually they are very, very wrong..

Yes, yes I do, and yes, yes they are.

But deep down you yearn for his approval, and he knows this very well.

You should read the words of Chunkdz the Wise, he's got really interesting things to say about 'morons who try to tell you what you think'.

Moron.

Ermine

Posted by: Katharine | September 7, 2010 8:14 AM

Wow, so trolls have started pontificating that they know what PZ thinks better than he does.

I prefer to hear what PZ actually says.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 7, 2010 8:38 AM

Just sitting here waiting for PZ to tell me it's ok to taken another sip of my coffee.

Posted by: Aaron Baker | September 7, 2010 10:56 AM

People have a right to do whatever silly, harmless rituals they want. Start disrupting church services, and next thing you know, people will be shouting out of dialect at Renaissance Fairs or hiding your bag of Dungeons & Dragons dice or tossing stink bombs into the Halloween costume store. Don't disturb the seance.

.................

Get it? You may express yourselves freely, but you ought not interfere with other people's right to also indulge their own silly beliefs.

Interesting. When I showed evidence that Webster Cook was disrupting his church service, the response was (what's a nice way to put it?) completely unhinged.

I'll reiterate more concisely what I said before: Bill Donohue is a creep; the anonymous cowards who threatened Cook's life are creeps. But entering a place of worship and fucking around with the rituals in a manner that you know will provoke a disturbance is unwarranted obnoxiousness (as Myers appears to agree).

Posted by: chunkdz | September 7, 2010 12:59 PM

So, in other words, they're not at all comparable, and people who think they're comparable are dumb. Except when you compared them - that was pure distilled free internet awesome! Gotcha.

What you "Got" was a big dose of confirmation bias, moron.

Listen up, stupid, and argue with what I say, not with what you think I think.

I said that the two are not equivalent. You even quoted me saying that. Then, like the dumb sheep that you are, you said that this means they are not comparable. That was dumb. Kind of like if I said apples and oranges are not "equivalent", then you, the stupid sheep, took that to mean that nobody can ever compare an apple to an orange.

I'm not sure why I'm taking time to teach basic logic to a herd of small brained sheep, but I suppose I'm just feeling extra optimistic today.

Now stop reading this post and check the blog for more marching orders. Baaa. That's a good sheep.

Posted by: chunkdz | September 7, 2010 1:43 PM

I'm sure that PZ is aware that this herd of cats is as intractable as any that has ever passed through his labs. The alpha members of the herd mark their territories mostly verbally with relevant, cogent, and informed comments.

This is a myth, and it's exactly the myth that keeps PZ in power. Since most every commenter believes that their comments are either relevant, cogent, or informed, most everyone here has the impression that he or she is important in some way, big or small, to PZ's cause.

But the truth is that to PZ, your importance is only as a warm body that can click a mouse. He does not care if your comments are relevant, cogent, or informed. He only cares that you come here, preferably several times a day and register a significant number of unique ad views. He makes a decent amount of cash off of you cows and would like to see that continue.

But more importantly, he has an agenda to make atheism both more exposed and more palatable to the mainstream. In this endeavor he also needs you, but he needs you idiots to stay in line so you don't mess this up by making "serious errors" like the young "amateur from Valencia".

This is how a 5% minority gets market share in popular culture. Be out, be loud, and get a bunch of mindless cows to follow you around and moo loudly when they are supposed to. (and shut up when the farmer tells you shut up)

Now get back to grazing. The farmer knows you are a stupid herd of cows so he has wisely fenced off the areas where you "ought not" go.

"Get it"?

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 7, 2010 1:50 PM

Still waiting for the old coffee go ahead PZ.

Whenever you can get to it.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | September 7, 2010 1:54 PM

Continued from 156

Why I heard that Linkara just put a hit out on a man for looking at him the wrong way, the other day...when will the police put a stop to this organize thuggary!?

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 7, 2010 1:57 PM

Whew, thank PZ. The coffee was getting really cold and I think things were growing on it.

Check is in the mail!

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 7, 2010 2:21 PM

These fearless contrarians of everything would be inspiring if they weren't so utterly useless. Chunkie must not ever leave the house because anything he does could be construed as following an order from someone.

Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | September 7, 2010 2:28 PM

chunkdz @ 132;

An irrelevant wikipedia political article and a discredited Berkeley study.

This is what happens when you turn your brain off and let Wikipedia drive.

I merely used the article for illustrative purposes. I most certainly do not let a website 'think' for me.

As for your... interesting definition of authoritarianism, why is it to be taken as gospel truth? Because the infallible chunk says so? Sorry, arguments based on the authority of some random ranting jerk from the internet who forgot to take his meds today do not hold much sway...

Why don't you put forward some intellectual basis for your claim that PZ is an 'authoritarian'. Remember, arguments are more persuasive if they make sense. And no, poorly thought out insults do not make up for a lack of cogency.

Wow. I am so impressed by you Pharyngulites.

What a bunch of cretins.

Trust me, the sentiment is mutual.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | September 7, 2010 2:50 PM

You know you haven't shown that anyone mindlessly follows anyone right? You speak the language of the Crazymen.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | September 7, 2010 3:33 PM

I see chunkidjit is still working on his banhammer for total insipidity. PZ called him boring, the first warning. And Chunktroll is boring. Not one cogent post to date. Time for Chunktool to either show some real intellect, and shut up, or await PZ's banhammer. May justice be swift so we aren't bored any longer.

Posted by: Hurin, Nattering Nabob of Negativism. | September 7, 2010 3:53 PM

How else do you get a stupid cow's attention?

That seems to be the sole purpose of all of your comments here. Frankly, I've heard more cogent arguments from wild eyed vagrants on street corners. Your strange and paranoid ideas of how a blogs function as micro dictatorships is laughable, and you are still arguing with yourself about whether or not PZ is a hypocrite. But what blows my mind even more is this:

Since most every commenter believes that their comments are either relevant, cogent, or informed, most everyone here has the impression that he or she is important in some way, big or small, to PZ's cause.

No Chunk, there are no delusions of importance here (at least among most of us). All of the regulars who I know anything about have day jobs. Even PZ has a real job; he is a Professor of Biology, who runs a blog and gives talks on athiesim and skepticism during his spare time. While he does draw a check from blogging, I seriously doubt he considers this more than a hobby.

I'd like to think most of my comments are relatively cogent, but I write them exclusively because I enjoy writing them. Any importance I can claim is expressed as a function of my publications in actual journals.

How about you Chunk? What is it that you think you are accomplishing with your incoherent ranting? Are you sticking it to the man by exposing PZ's "sheep" and his "secret mission"?

And, by the way, I do not disapprove of authoritarians though I do carry some disdain for those who mindlessly follow them.

Or is it just that mommy isn't giving you enough attention this week, as the above comment seems to indicate?

Posted by: chunkdz | September 7, 2010 4:14 PM

No Chunk, there are no delusions of importance here (at least among most of us). All of the regulars who I know anything about have day jobs. Even PZ has a real job; he is a Professor of Biology, who runs a blog and gives talks on athiesim and skepticism during his spare time. While he does draw a check from blogging, I seriously doubt he considers this more than a hobby.

Translation: Moooooooo!

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 7, 2010 4:21 PM

And, by the way, I do not disapprove of authoritarians though I do carry some disdain for those who mindlessly follow them.

Lemme guess: you're a freethinker, eh? Follow your own path?

Independents like you are easy to identify: You're the ones who act like everyone else, except you spend a lot of your time convincing everyone else of your independent/freethinking nature.

Nonetheless, us cows get easily spooked by you independent sorts. Probably best for you to find an empty pasture, uncrowded by hiveminds like ours. If you can handle being without an audience which you can regale with tales of your own drum and how you march to it, that is.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | September 7, 2010 4:38 PM

Translation: Moooooooo!

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 7, 2010 4:40 PM

Apparently, I have some elaborate and mercenary totalitarian scheme going on in my head, though.

Well, it does take an in-though-the-out-door walker like chunkdz, Freethinker™—he's got business cards made up for those who're too bovine to recognise his eXtreme streak of independence—to immediately spot the sorts of things that go right over the heads of us sheeple who simply follow the crowd at chow time.

Now, where's that alfalfa patch you promised us, PZ?

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 7, 2010 5:03 PM

I mean besides the one you made up all on your very own.

Hardly. Citations and links are not the mark of a Freethinker™ like chunkdz. Why, the very thought of agreement with someone else must burn his brain like strong acid.

He's too busy shaking us to our very foundations with his scary outside-the-box ideas to jump through the hoops that constitute cogent argument.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 7, 2010 5:18 PM

Kind of like if I said apples and oranges are not "equivalent", then you, the stupid sheep, took that to mean that nobody can ever compare an apple to an orange.

Um, aren't apples and oranges kind of the sine qua non of describing a comparison that shouldn't be made?

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 7, 2010 5:28 PM

Am I really saying anything so controversial?

You're conflating 'controversial' with 'stupid'. Check the links; they mean totally different things.

Posted by: erminate | September 7, 2010 5:36 PM

Well sure, Carlie @ #183 - Just don't expect Chunkdz to figure that out!

It's been awhile since I've seen someone so willing to splash their hypocrisy and ignorance around where everyone can see it. He can't even define authoritarian, but by God, PZ must be one! See how much like Chunkz he acts?

No? Huh. Neither do I. Funny that.. Must be our oversight, of course. We all know that All-Knowing Chunkdz knows more than any 10 scientists combined, right?

Why that makes him sound so much like an ignorant, hypocritical ass instead of a scientist, now there's a real mystery!

Ermine

Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | September 7, 2010 6:21 PM

Apparently, I have some elaborate and mercenary totalitarian scheme going on in my head, though.

The real question is, how has chunkdz seen through our charade? How is it that he/she knows about 'teh extra-top-secret ebil athiest conspirisy' to force our godless hivemind on the world?

Is this evidence of spooky psychic mind reading powers? I mean, how else could chunkdz see the secrets locked in PZ's supervillain mind...?

Well... there is the vanishingly small possibility that chunkdz could be the type of delusion, obsessive weirdo who feels the need to demonstrate his/her 'superior' faculties as a 'free thinker' by seeking to denigrate the opinions and integrity of others, and so assumes that PZ is an 'authoritarian' because chunk cannot handle the idea that PZ is simply more astute that chunk is, and PZ's blog is a space frequented by actual sceptics and free thinkers rather than insecure little cretins who can only express an opinion adversarially.

But honestly, who would be cynical enough to think something like that...?

Posted by: chunkdz | September 7, 2010 6:32 PM

Please, enlighten us. How will PZ punish me when I break the rules?

Umm, read the OP, moron. But of course, he may also choose not to publicly humiliate you. It's his call.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 7, 2010 6:44 PM

chunk:
You confuse ridicule with punishment? Damn, you are really fucking fragile. Since I am a secure adult, I know that I can take criticism and even *gasp!* mockery without losing any sleep over it.

Have your worked out a definition of "authoritarian" for me yet? Or "punishment" for that matter?

Listen up, PZ! I'm going to take a crack a breaking the rules for chunk's benefit.

*ahem*

God exists and impacts our daily lives.

Darwin was wrong.

Stephen Hawking is wrong about the origin of the universe and god.

Men are superior to women.
-or-
Women have full equality. (Take your pick.)

Teh Gheys are icky.

Circumcision = female genital mutilation.

Americans Christians are persecuted and their religious freedoms are being eroded by Muslims and atheists (and possibly Jews?).

The Pope is infallible.

Squids are gross and not at all interesting.

You are not sexy.

Are you going to punish me now, PZ? Publicly for chunk's benefit? Pretty please?

Posted by: Dania | September 7, 2010 6:52 PM

ODS, you forgot to call PZ a poopyhead. That's a great crime and I believe you should be punished by the Great Poopyhead himself.

Posted by: chunkdz | September 7, 2010 7:00 PM

...chunk cannot handle the idea that PZ is simply more astute that chunk is

Actually, anybody that can herd over 88 million dumbass cows gets my sincere respect.

and PZ's blog is a space frequented by actual sceptics and free thinkers rather than insecure little cretins who can only express an opinion adversarially.

All evidence to the contrary. So far every single response from you morons has been utterly predictable. As predictable as walking through a cattle feed lot. Heads turn, activity stops, warnings are moooooo'd, some threatening looks, the farmer opens the door to see what the noise is about, and much cud is chewed.

But keep pretending you are some kind of free thinking sceptic. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that you happen to behave exactly like a predictable herd animal.

Posted by: CJO | September 7, 2010 7:09 PM

I guess I'm just going to have to lie back and take my punishment.

I think that's "Lie back and think of Minnesota." Or something like that.

Hey, there's stupid ol' chunky! Everybody point and laugh. Delusional assholes hate that. Plus, PZ said to.

Posted by: Dania | September 7, 2010 7:11 PM

ODS,

Relax. Maybe your punishment will come in the form of community service. I've heard there are some virgins around who need to be corrupted. Dirty job, but someone's gotta do it... ;)

Posted by: John Morales | September 7, 2010 7:18 PM

[meta]

Amateurs thread gets amateur troll.

Who'd've thought?

Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | September 7, 2010 7:24 PM

OurDeadSelves, Mother of Death @ 193;

Are you going to punish me now, PZ? Publicly for chunk's benefit? Pretty please?

Are you just looking for some bacon-related spanking again?

We shouldn't make assumptions, you know. I have no idea whether or not chunk likes to watch...

Dania @ 202;

I've heard there are some virgins around who need to be corrupted. Dirty job, but someone's gotta do it... ;)

Where were ladies such as these when I was a callow youth in desperate need of a little corruption?

Proof, if further proof were needed, that the universe is not fair.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 7, 2010 7:42 PM

Chunk distilled:
PZ is vying to be the leadership voice for all atheism. This post was a public punishment for an action that PZ doesn't approve of. The horde must toe the line in order to maintain their social standing within the Pharyngula society.

Atheism isn't a movement like that. We don't have apostates and saints, we don't even truly have a we. The idea that the readers here value so highly is considered action; skeptical thinking and freedom of speech being cornerstones of that philosophy.

We don't think like PZ because we follow him, we congregate around PZ because he thinks like us. You have it backwards Chunk.

Posted by: Dania | September 7, 2010 7:54 PM

Proof, if further proof were needed, that the universe is not fair.

Indeed it isn't. Where were the intelligent, witty and charming guys when I most needed them? I mean, I know they exist 'cause I'm talking to one right now, but they weren't there in the right place at the right time. Not fair. ;)

Posted by: chunkdz | September 7, 2010 9:26 PM

Chunk distilled:

PZ is vying to be the leadership voice for all atheism.

This post was a public punishment for an action that PZ doesn't approve of.

The horde must toe the line in order to maintain their social standing within the Pharyngula society.

Atheism isn't a movement like that. We don't have apostates and saints, we don't even truly have a we.

Man you are dumb.

We don't think like PZ because we follow him, we congregate around PZ because he thinks like us.

Is there anybody here who is not a complete cretin?

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 7, 2010 9:37 PM

It's called herd behavior, or herd instinct, and it's what I've been saying all along, idiot.

Yes anytime any group of people who agree congregate it is herd mentality.

Posted by: chunkdz | September 7, 2010 10:02 PM

Yes anytime any group of people who agree congregate it is herd mentality.

Not herd mentality, moron. Herd instinct. The propensity for grazing prey species to huddle together for safety, and to react in predictable and coordinated ways when threatened.

Sheesh. Just when you think it can't get any dumberer in here...

Why, why, why do intelligent women (or, for that matter, any type of woman) never react to me in this fashion in meatspace!

Ummm, maybe because you use words like "meatspace"?

Good Lord this place is filled with complete morons. I've had enough. Go back to grazing, idiots.

PZ, you have my sympathies trying to keep these idiots out of trouble. I know you are trying to discipline them, but I really would not be surprised if the next James Lee came from this herd of abject dumbasses.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | September 7, 2010 10:07 PM

Sheesh. Just when you think it can't get any dumberer in here...

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | September 7, 2010 10:28 PM

I predict chunkdz will soon prove he is as big a liar as he is a clueless pissant. His particular type of lame-ass clown shoe can't resist trying to convince himself he can score points.

Sheesh. Just when you think it can't get any dumberer in here...

Posted by: Gregory Greenwood | September 8, 2010 6:13 AM

Chunk;

Not herd mentality, moron. Herd instinct. The propensity for grazing prey species to huddle together for safety, and to react in predictable and coordinated ways when threatened.

(emphasis added)

I am sorry to break it to you, chunk, but you are not some lion of free thinking threatening a hivemind herd of cattle. You are in no way a threat to us, figuratively or literally. We are not shying away from your 'brilliant' oratory, we are laughing at you inane babble.

Ummm, maybe because you use words like "meatspace"?

*sigh* I am actually going to have to explain self-deprecatory humour to you, aren't I? You see, chunk, this is what is called a 'joke'. In self-deprecatory humour, the joke is made at the expense of the person telling it. It is often used as a means of subverting expectation, and indirectly mocking those who take themselves far too seriously to ever laugh at themselves. You know, people like you...

In any case, the term 'meatspace' is in common use here on Pharyngula as a shorthand for offline activity - the opposite of 'cyberspace'. Do try to keep up with the terminology.

If I were to actually seek advice on my love life, the last person I would listen too is a ranting prat on the internet with all the subtlety of a run away locomotive and all the charisma of limp lettuce...

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 8, 2010 2:26 PM

Woot! I got a whole chunk response.

No, I think PZ is content to be the fifth horseman.

No, moron. You have no social standing within the Pharyngula society. There is only PZ, and a herd of extremely stupid cows. Which one are you?

Yeah right. Atheists aren't a movement, but if you ever want to come to one of our Atheist Alliance conventions, or join our OUT campaign, or help buy ad space for busses, or help rent godless billboard space in Oklahoma city, or buy a t-shirt or stylish hoodie with our logo, well you probably won't find us because "we" aren't even really a "we". Man you are dumb.

It's called herd behavior, or herd instinct, and it's what I've been saying all along, idiot.