Pharyngula

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | September 2, 2010 11:14 PM

Wow, I suck at keeping a blog updated.

I've got a tech-blog for programming stuff. I just posted an entry.

The previous entry? 19 January.

Seriously.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | September 2, 2010 11:18 PM

JeffreyD (@677 previous):

The most interesting man in the world!

'Tis:

I don't expect this to be necessary, but if the coastline gets hairy, my house is on high ground. Don't hesitate to contact me. (Click my name; leave comment at my dormant blog; I'll get an e-mail and get right back to you.)

Also: Homegrown jalapenos + smoke + food dehydrator = homemade chipotles FTW!

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | September 2, 2010 11:24 PM

Woo-hoo! We're centurions!

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | September 2, 2010 11:28 PM

holy crap... Not Always Right is even better than Clients from Hell...

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 2, 2010 11:34 PM

Bill D
I figured it was the despair of the first comment that set you off. I suppose I could've just retracted it, seeing as it was hyperbole, and just left it at that. But that wouldn't have been as fun ;-) (Also, I think the discussion we've had has been pretty constructive, at least for me.)

My rather extreme assessment of the potential for economic meltdown is a carry-over from spending too much time with a guy who owned an oil company (not the old guy I referred to earlier). He painted an extremely bleak (but plausible) future for modern humans and laid out the possibility that life as we know could very well end, and soon, due to our dependence on oil. The oil will most likely functionally run out well before it actually runs out, and it could be in the near enough future that there will be no way to prevent disaster. So, it really chaps my ass to no end that we are fucking up the Gulf without even actually saving ourselves from this potential future. I'd rather just let the mayhem that we've set on its course happen without screwing up the oceans in the meantime, since doing so will probably not do much to prevent the trouble. I don't mean that I don't want to do anything to prevent the trouble; I mean that I don't want to compound it needlessly. We've made our bed. It's not fair to go puke in our roommate's.

So, I don't mean that not drilling in the Gulf will save the environment in the face of an economic collapse (trust me, I've had the visions of billions of people suddenly been shot back a couple hundred years, and let's just say there aren't exactly sugar plums dancing). I mean that drilling in the Gulf will not prevent the financial collapse, and it will very likely fuck up the ocean (even more), so can we please at least have the ocean if we can't have the economy? Also, it would be nice to work on real solutions instead of magic oilman solutions.

hinting that people, in the aggregate, will inevitably let us down strikes me as not only pessimistic but incorrect.

I do not think it's inevitable that people in the aggregate will fail. Thank you for bringing the clarity to my comment that I failed to, because I certainly don't want to make that kind of hint. I pretty much do not have any faith left in the oil industry, but my faith in humans as a whole is still hanging in there, goofy and gangly though it may be.

The use of literary devices (i.e., hyperbole), while fun and entertaining, can cut down on the parsimony a bit. I'll attempt a little more discretion and clarification in the future.

A little.

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 2, 2010 11:38 PM

Jeepers, my last comment was fucking long. If only I could channel that into catching up on my real work.

Sorry, Thread, for taking up so much room right at the top.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 2, 2010 11:45 PM

Jadehawk:

holy crap... Not Always Right is even better than Clients from Hell...

You just now discovered that? Heh, it will keep you busy for a while.

Jeffrey:

I liked Nation. One can never have enough octopus (octopi?). I do want a tree climbing octopus, would help keep those damn kids off my lawn. Also, I think Mau and Ermintrude would be nice names for a a pair of finches.

I liked it too, but I would have preferred more tree dwelling, tool using octopods. Mau & Ermintrude would be good rat names, too. I already have the next names picked though; if I get two males again, they will be Chaz & Alfie; if it's two females, Esme & Gytha. In the meantime, Bruce is healthy and ferocious as ever, so I hope it will be a while yet.

Posted by: Aquaria | September 2, 2010 11:50 PM

Jadehawk:

I had a co-worker take a trip to Mexico and complain that the Mexican food there wasn't real Mexican food.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 2, 2010 11:54 PM

Aquaria:

I had a co-worker take a trip to Mexico and complain that the Mexican food there wasn't real Mexican food.

Too many 'Mericans don't have the slightest idea of what food from other countries taste like; too many of them can't handle any food with actual taste anyway. It's a pity.

Posted by: Rorschach | September 3, 2010 12:03 AM

I had a co-worker take a trip to Mexico and complain that the Mexican food there wasn't real Mexican food.

Some places in Japan are apparently importing american-made Sushi, it's meant to be a real hit.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 12:20 AM

Tonight's Futurama: very good, I can't believe it's the end of the season already!

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | September 3, 2010 12:46 AM

100%

One Hundred Years From Now

Posted by: McCthulhu is taking ∞ to eat all the pi | September 3, 2010 1:09 AM

My wife (who is half Vietnamese, half Chinese) goes on the angriest tirades about bad Asian drivers of anyone I know, especially the ones in Little Saigon in Orange County. They have NOTHING on the ones in China though:

Clicky

How the hell do you make a traffic jam that lasts NINE FUCKING DAYS???

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | September 3, 2010 1:17 AM

Probably a silly question, but I don't eat sushi so I've never bothered to investigate it very much - what's the difference between American-style sushi and Japanese-style sushi?

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 1:25 AM

McCthulhu:

My wife (who is half Vietnamese, half Chinese) goes on the angriest tirades about bad Asian drivers of anyone I know, especially the ones in Little Saigon in Orange County. They have NOTHING on the ones in China though:

This whole bit smacks of "why, I even let them use the bathroom!" You could have just said something like, "Holy shit, no one likes a bad driver, I've never seen one this bad!" and included your link. Going out of your way to excuse the inclusion of race was a bit much.*

*All this because of the extensive discussion on stealth racism recently.

Posted by: Aquaria | September 3, 2010 1:43 AM

Wowbagger:

All you need to know about American sushi.

They use a variety of cooked meats.

Bacon is one of them.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | September 3, 2010 1:48 AM

Aquaria,

Thanks. I'd far rather eat that than Japanese sushi. I'm not all that keen on most kinds of fish of any kind. The exception, of course, is fish from a fish and chip shop, which is crumbed and tastes mostly of fat, salt and cooked breadcrumbs.

Posted by: Ichthyic | September 3, 2010 1:51 AM

I had a co-worker take a trip to Mexico and complain that the Mexican food there wasn't real Mexican food.

I have spent a lot of time in Mexico; mostly the peninsula.

Sadly, you can indeed get Mexican food in Mexico that is not even close to "real" Mexican food. Especially around most of the bigger towns like Cabo San Lucas. They do tend to cater to tourists in a lot of places. Sometimes, you actually have to ask locals where the actual mexican food is served!

example: Try finding a real chille relleno in CSL without asking a local.

none of the big restaurants serve anything but americanized crap any more.

I have heard the same thing from the mainland side, from people visiting places like Mazatlan.

I also ran into that in Cancun and Cozumel.

Posted by: Usagichan | September 3, 2010 1:58 AM

Wowbagger

Thanks. I'd far rather eat that than Japanese sushi. I'm not all that keen on most kinds of fish of any kind. The exception, of course, is fish from a fish and chip shop, which is crumbed and tastes mostly of fat, salt and cooked breadcrumbs.

Sounds like you'd prefer a different type of Japanese food. How about Ton-katsu? Pork fillet, bread-crumbed and deep fried (often eaten at the same time as deep fried prawns, deep fried vegetables - I've even seen rice and curry wrapped in a tenderised pork cutlet breadcrumbed and deep fried). Its not all raw fish here ;)

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | September 3, 2010 2:59 AM

Sounds like you'd prefer a different type of Japanese food.

Oh, I don't doubt it; from what I've read there are plenty of Japanese dishes that I'm sure I'd like - it's just the sushi I'm not keen on. Other than that I've managed, quite successfully, to toss aside my Anglo-Australian 'meat-and-three-veg' upbringing...

Having had grandparents who owned a cattle station (what the USAnians would call a 'ranch') meant lots of beef, though. As a child I used to find it odd that not everyone had two spare chest freezers full of assorted cow parts.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 3, 2010 4:11 AM

bullshit. you're far more fun when you're being frivolous then when you're being a libertarian ass.

It's strange how people here seem to react much better when I talk about cookery, sex or literature than when I talk about politics. :-)

But I'm a political animal. I can't help ranting occasionally. I'm sure people get bored of me harping on about the criminal justice system, for instance, but it's something I care a lot about, and want to change.

Posted by: Usagichan | September 3, 2010 4:26 AM

Walton

I try to eat much less meat and fish than I used to, though. It always makes me feel guilty.

For some reason that put in mind the scene from 'Restaurant at the End of the Universe' where the cow is trying to persuade them to eat it - "Why not try some liver pate *sotto voce* Oi've been force feeding myself for weeks."

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | September 3, 2010 5:23 AM

I may be wrong about this, but a collapse of modern civilization that left billions of people still alive dead might cause (rather than prevent) ecological collapse:

*shudder*

Posted by: Kel, The Privileged View From Nowhere | September 3, 2010 5:40 AM

Why would you want to live when all your family and friends have been killed, and everything which makes life worth living has been destroyed?

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 3, 2010 5:48 AM

Probably the chance of sex ;)

And there I was trying to prove that I can talk about something other than sex and politics. :-D

(To be fair, I do talk about food quite a lot, too. I've even been complimented on my excellent recipe for lime cheesecake.)

Posted by: KG | September 3, 2010 6:00 AM

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with it, but we do spend a lot of time talking about fucking Walton here. - Antiochus Epiphanes

Is "fucking" functioning as a verb or an adjective there? ;-)

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | September 3, 2010 6:21 AM

Thank you for the offer, Bill, but I don't think it'll be necessary. We're under a tropical storm warning with heavy rain and winds gusting to 45 knots. We should be all right. But thanks for the offer.

Posted by: John Morales | September 3, 2010 6:38 AM

Walton, ever seen the original Mad Max?

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 6:53 AM

Part-Time Insomniac - sorry about your week. I hope that kid gets the help he needs. We've been battling fruit flies too; there was apparently at least one breeding pair in the house, then we went on vacation for over two weeks, and when we came back... Set out dishes with apple cider vinegar with a little dishwashing soap mixed in. That breaks the surface tension and they sink and drown. Also keep a vacuum handy to suck them up when you stir up a cloud, but then be sure to plug the end of the vacuum with a wad of paper towel or something so they don't just fly back out.

Rorschach - could it be going into flowering stage? That looks a lot different than the vegetative one.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 3, 2010 7:37 AM

Now it's growing something, but doesn't look very leeklike at all, what is it, and will it be edible ?

Well if it looks like a mushroom or slime mold I wouldn't eat it :P

Dig it up, is it growing from the leek bulb?

Posted by: John Morales | September 3, 2010 7:56 AM

Um. Zsa Zsa Gabor to be preserved by plastination

The German husband of ailing 93-year-old Hollywood actress and socialite Zsa Zsa Gabor says he wants to preserve her body by plastination after she dies, the Bild newspaper reports.

"My wife has always dreamt that her beauty would be immortal," Frederic von Anhalt said.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 3, 2010 8:01 AM

Why would you want to live when all your family and friends have been killed, and everything which makes life worth living has been destroyed?

To try and help other survivors?

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | September 3, 2010 8:10 AM

Why would you want to live when all your family and friends have been killed, and everything which makes life worth living has been destroyed?

Why not? You're going to die eventually anyway. Might as well stick around to see what happens.

Posted by: Ogvorbis, Parenthetical Death | September 3, 2010 8:42 AM

Last day of work before a four day weekend, yay.

Bise mich. Today is Wednesday.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 3, 2010 8:46 AM

@Ogvorbis:

No no, today is Monday, yesterday was Wednesday, and tomorrow is Tuesday.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 3, 2010 8:54 AM

@Ogvorbis:

Ohh... I must have been mistaken, sorry. I keep mixing up crazy calendars.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 3, 2010 8:59 AM

@Ogvorbis:

Right, I remember that. Was that before or after they decided to take away the 30th from February and stick the 31st on August?

Posted by: Stephen Wells | September 3, 2010 9:01 AM

@69: Plenty of plants and fungi have active spore or seed release mechanisms. Japanese knotweed does this thing where if you touch a ripe seedpod, foom, sticky seeds everywhere.

Ergo, triffids are real :)

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 3, 2010 9:06 AM

@Ogvorbis:

No, I'm not old. I used my time machine to go back in time.

Posted by: Alan B | September 3, 2010 9:12 AM

#67 KG

Does it look anything like this? If so, uproot it and burn it now!

Or, at least, keep a spray full of seawater close at hand. (British film version, 1962)

Posted by: otrame | September 3, 2010 9:23 AM

Jules @10

I am old enough to remember well when Jimmy Carter tried to warn everyone about the cold hard fact that we will run out of fossil fuels one day. At the time, they estimated 200 years. I think that the massive changes in India and China will make it much sooner than that.

I also remember how everyone laughed at him.

So tell me. Why don't our electric utilities have solar panels on every SW, S, and SE facing roof in the city? In every city where there is a relatively low number of rainy days. The energy produced would pay for it, and afterwards it does, the householder would get the benefit of lower cost, cleaner energy. Yes, I will be putting solar panels on my house this fall, but I can (just about) afford to put the money up front. What about the square miles of poor people's houses that are being wasted as we speak? It's not the only answer, but it is a part of the answer.

Posted by: Katrina, radicales féministes athées | September 3, 2010 9:30 AM

Schnitzel!

The younger two, on the other hand, are not so excited about Japanese food. When I make katsu-don at home, I always have to convince them it's really schnitzel on rice.

Posted by: SQB (fuck death) | September 3, 2010 9:32 AM

I have little love for Geert Wilders, who often insults the people -- specifically Muslims but his political opponents as well -- instead of their religion or ideology. But now some idiot in Australia is calling on all Muslims to behead him. Reuters: Muslim cleric calls for beheading of Dutch politician.

I'm not familiar with Australian law, but in most countries, a direct death thread like this would be ground for an arrest and some jail time, am I right?

Posted by: JeffreyD | September 3, 2010 9:42 AM

Why would you want to live when all your family and friends have been killed, and everything which makes life worth living has been destroyed?

Because I am stubborn as hell. Because I love life and love a challenge and not going to let some stupid ass apocalypse push me around. Then there is the whole liking the taste of human flesh thing...but that is probably TMI.

:^}

Posted by: Ogvorbis, Parenthetical Death | September 3, 2010 9:47 AM

Benjamin:

Thank you so much. Now I have that little earworm stuck in my little mind and it will help destroy what little sanity I have in the little time left before . . . .

Wait. What?

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 3, 2010 9:54 AM

otrame
You've hit upon one of the reasons for my despair: there are solutions (maybe not one-size-fits-all, but there are options), but the motivation simply isn't there to implement them. What's the lives of billions of people and multiple other species, plant and animal, to a few billion dollars in the here and now?

On the upside, solar flex cell technology gets me pretty excited. And yes, I do mean *that* kind of excited.

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 3, 2010 10:01 AM

Why would you want to live when all your family and friends have been killed, and everything which makes life worth living has been destroyed?

I'd argue that friends and family are not the only things that make life worth living. I'd say they are the most important thing that makes life worth living, though.

Me, I'd stick around just to see how it's gonna end.

Posted by: gussnarp | September 3, 2010 10:04 AM

Dropping in to share a funny and entirely off topic story I have no one else to share with:

I live near enough to the Creation Museum to head over in the afternoon and be home in time for dinner. I recently took a vacation to visit my parents, who scheduled a portrait sitting so they could get some nice photos of the whole family, grandkids, etc. It's a two hour flight from the airport nearest the Creation Museum to their house. So we had finished up the photos and the photographer was asking where we were from. My wife told him and he said:

I did some work up there for this museum.... what is it, it has dinosaurs and stuff [my brain going: please say Cincinnati Museum Center, please], it's Ken Ham's place, uh, the Creation
Museum. Yeah, I did all their photography.

Posted by: Ogvorbis, Parenthetical Death | September 3, 2010 10:16 AM

I mean, AE is right, you're probably going to die anyway. So why not try and help out until you do?

Which is actually my basic philosphy of life. Help people, make the world a little bit better, inflict (((Wife))) and I's genes on the world. It works. Not as dramatic as 'Worship this imaginary being in exactly the right way and believe exactly the right things about exactly the right things and you may live forever but almost all of you are screwed', but it works.

Posted by: Ogvorbis, Parenthetical Death | September 3, 2010 10:29 AM

Sorry. I'll shut up. Bye.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 3, 2010 10:36 AM

Well, it's green.Whatever it is.But neither onion- or leeklike, although I guess it's vaguely shaftlike.

Oh! It's probably the flower stem.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 3, 2010 10:40 AM

Hey! My book-borrowing dilemma has been solved.

My co-worker has Demon-Haunted World, so I am borrowing it from him.

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 3, 2010 10:42 AM

Sorry. I'll shut up. Bye.

Posted by: Dania | September 3, 2010 10:47 AM

I'll shut up. Bye.

Oh, no!

*puts another nickel*

But neither onion- or leeklike, although I guess it's vaguely shaftlike.

Could be the flower stem as Ol'Greg says but then shouldn't it already have some leaves? I don't know, I've never done that. I only seed them.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 3, 2010 10:52 AM

I always thought the stem comes up first and then leaves unfurl from it?

I dunno.

That's how my irises do.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 3, 2010 10:53 AM

@Rey:

Oh you know just what to say *rowr*

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 11:02 AM

ODS - sneeze into the USB port and make us all sick, and I'm a-gonna be mad.

David - I'm still confused on the testing. How did you take an entire class but finish all the tests? Or are those like separate standardized tests that one usually takes after the class but not always?

Posted by: MrFire | September 3, 2010 11:08 AM

Wow. See... I could make myself of use finding antibiotics for people like Ewan, washing out wounds, trying to keep Walton from offing himself for having survived.

There's a blockbuster movie idea in there somewhere.

Formula stipulates that, 2/3 of the way through, Walton has to lose his shit and start picking off his fellow survivors one-by-one.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 11:09 AM

I always thought the stem comes up first and then leaves unfurl from it?

Well, kind of, but the stem is just a teensy wee thing at the base. Think of how you peel off scallion leaves; they're all attached in a very, very tight spiral way down at the bottom. (Same as cabbage or head lettuce.) The flower stem is a different thing entirely, and does bolt up (thanks, gibberellins!) For ramps and leeks and onions, usually the leaves come up first, then eventually wither, and then the flower stems come up much later in the season. Often by the time the flower stems come up you wouldn't even know there's a plant there otherwise because the leaves are long gone by then.

Posted by: Dania | September 3, 2010 11:16 AM

A photo would help...

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | September 3, 2010 11:25 AM

Getting a salary is dangerous.

I'm looking at smartphones and I don't need one.

At least it's seems buying a handcuffed one can be made compatible with my current use. The minimum monthly payment covers sms and data as well, not just speech - or so the nice lady told me.

Prolly a good thing the gizmos are sold out at the moment. Time to get it out of my system.

Or perhaps I'll just end up getting a Roomba to scare the cats instead.

Posted by: Rorschach | September 3, 2010 11:26 AM

A photo would help...

I'll take one in the morning(0124am here) and post it somewhere.

Conversely, the edible onion bulb is penetrated by the seedstalk which is hard when the bulb is harvested

Sounds like something Walton might fancy....:D

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | September 3, 2010 11:31 AM

...and much of what makes life a pain in the ass would have been taken away.

I must confess, there is one occasion in particular when I find myself thinking a horrific population crash, possibly with associated disaster, after which life becomes a grinding, nigh-hopeless misery of desperation interspersed with the drudgery of a lifestyle pushed suddenly, radically back to somethin' like the early agricultural age or worse--a life that becomes an endless torment of blisters and sunburn and heat and thist and aching hunger--y'know, like in Cormac McCarthy's The Road but quite not so upbeat--does temporarily seem to me a smidge attractive...

And that's while stuck in traffic, long enough.

(/I start thinkin': rampaging aliens. They can blow, say, 99 of 100 of these damned cars to bits, right now, and I'm good with that; I'll take the very likely chance I'm in one of them, if only to have that narrow shot at getting past the lot of 'em right now, and never wasting another second of my remaining life crawling along interminably like this ever.)

Posted by: JeffreyD | September 3, 2010 11:35 AM

Cracked.com's take on the History (sic) Channel. Good five minute time waster.

http://www.cracked.com/funny-5720-the-history-channel/

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | September 3, 2010 11:37 AM

Wait. You're saying that the books are all gone?

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | September 3, 2010 11:48 AM

Sorry. I'll shut up. Bye.

wrong answer

Posted by: Lynna, OM | September 3, 2010 11:54 AM

All right! One hundred episodes of the Endless Thread, Thread of Doom, Thread of Agony, or Pain in PZ's Ass ... whichever.

To celebrate the century mark, here's a report of a gay senior getting at least partial respect, to the tune of $650,000, from Sonoma County in California.

Clay Greene and his partner Harold Scull had been forcibly abducted by the county in April 2008. Their possessions had been auctioned off after the city terminated the lease on their home.
     Greene and Scull established legal rights for themselves as a couple despite bans on lesbian and gay marriage and other efforts to prevent legal recognition of same-sex unions. The couple had been together for 25 years and granted each other power of attorney in emergency situations.
     When Scull fell ill in April 2008 and was taken to the hospital, Greene was denied the right to visit his partner, despite having legal power of attorney. When Greene attempted to gain his legally established rights, he was forced into a nursing home. Greene’s claims of unjust hospitalization were labeled “dementia,” and negative stereotypes about the elderly were used to remove his credibility and keep him locked away.
     The couple were held against their will in separate hospitals. Scull died four months later, leaving Greene locked away and not even informed of his longtime partner’s death. Greene had tried to leave the nursing home where he was held, but was continually recaptured...

Posted by: Hekuni Cat, Champion of Oriana | September 3, 2010 12:35 PM

For Cicely, especially:

Caine Caterpillar, Huge Vermin

Hit Dice: 8d8+32 (68 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares), climb +20 ft
Armor Class: 16 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+21
Attack: Bite +11 melee (2d6+10 plus poison)
Full Attack: Bite +11 melee (2d6+10 plus poison
Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: Acidic Bristles, Acid Spray, Improved Grab, Poison, Swallow Whole
Special Qualities: Scent 30 ft, Vermin Traits
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +2
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 15, Con 18, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +2, Listen +4, Move Silently +10
Feats: --
Environment Temperate Grassland
Organization: Solitary or colony (2-5)
Challenge Rating: 6
Advancement: 9-15
Level Adjustment: --

Acid Spray (Ex): As a standard action, the Caine Caterpillar can spray 3d6 points of acid damage in a 15-ft cone every 1d4+1 rounds. Reflex half DC18. The save is Constitution-based.

Acidic Bristles (Ex): An attacker who hits a Caine Caterpillar with natural or non-reach weapons takes 1d6 points of acid damage from its nearly invisible but highly irritating bristles.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a Caine Caterpillar must hit an opponent of up to one size smaller with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude negates DC 18, initial and secondary damage 1d6 STR. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Scent (Ex): This special quality allows a Caine Caterpillar to detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A Caine Caterpillar can try to swallow a grabbed opponent by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the Caine Caterpillar's gut. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gut (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Caine Caterpillar's gut can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.

Note: 3.5 rules

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 3, 2010 12:59 PM

I'm as dirty, or shall I say, soily, as you want me to be.

Og:
"Sorry. I'll shut up. Bye."

Anybody have a dime?

Posted by: broboxley OT | September 3, 2010 1:02 PM

As to why I would want to live after a catastrophe?
get off my large demographic area whippersnapper!
Found a neat link to zombie food
http://aht.seriouseats.com/archives/2008/09/12-year-old-mcdonalds-hamburger-still-looking-good.html scary stuff that

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 3, 2010 1:10 PM

Sushi should have pickled rice in it. It's easy to make at home and can be done with just about any fresh ingredient. I loves it a lot.

@ Walton,
I will take life thanks. If I survived chances are that other people did too and together we will have a chance to live. Maybe even find some love for each other while we are at it. It wouldn't be this life, but it needn't be a bad life either.

@ Lynna,
What is wrong with people?

@ Hekuni Cat,
Well played. Well played indeed!

Posted by: Hekuni Cat, Champion of Oriana | September 3, 2010 1:13 PM

I'm glad you liked it, Cicely. Have lots of evil fun with it. I did--and I'll be using it again when my brother-in-law gets back from Afghanistan in late November. I used my Purple Worm miniatures as stand-ins.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | September 3, 2010 1:22 PM

I don't know how people can treat other people that way... it makes me sick. Such hate and meanness... People are ugly.

In connection with that story being discussed on an ex-mormon website, this comment was posted by "Ewan":

If a movie is made of what fags are really all about, you'll be grateful that queers are only rounded up and put in quarantine, instead of lined up wholesale against walls and shot.
     Fact: According to the Center for Disease Control (CDC), in 2008 78% of all new HIV/AIDS infections were in "gay" males. Stats are similar for all other venereal diseases across the board. And fags and dykes are only 4 to 6 percent of the US population (the 10% number is another queer lie that has no scientific support).
     Fact: Fags spread deadly and filthy diseases.

That's just a lie...Evan has apparently DOUBLED the number from the actual CDC report, which can be found here: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/surveillance/resources/reports/2008report/table1b.htm Might want to do more homework next time, dumbass.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 3, 2010 1:27 PM

@Ewan R:

So you're a terrible actor, too?

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 3, 2010 1:32 PM

Any one else a Sigur Rós fan?

Or a Google translate fan, for that matter?

Posted by: Ewan R | September 3, 2010 1:36 PM

Kev - Ewan Kerr

*chortle*

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 1:40 PM

Did someone mention Ewan McGregor? No matter his acting skills, he looks pretty fine in a kilt. (but then again, who doesn't?)

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 3, 2010 1:43 PM

Ewen Bremner must be different because he doesn't spell it the same.

(Apologies to those who hate Harmony Korine. I love this movie, and Bremner's acting is out of this world. Also, I'm a huge Werner Herzog fan.)

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 3, 2010 1:46 PM

@Dhorvath:

I think I first found a Playboy when I was 12. It was hidden in a zippered pillow in my brother's recliner (he was 16.) Ahh, childhood innocence gone.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 3, 2010 1:55 PM

@ Jules,
There may have been a similar precipitating event in my downfall as well. The big difference being that I wasn't terribly mercantile at that age so I just brought a centrefold to school and got caught showing it off.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | September 3, 2010 1:58 PM

In fifth grade I knew a guy who had a sliding scale for centerfold peeks depending on how much pubic hair (then only recently visible in PB) was visible.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 3, 2010 2:01 PM

@Randomfactor:

Haha. That's hilarious.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 3, 2010 2:15 PM

I guess I should note that the magazines had been gathered up by my grandmother after my uncles had moved out on their own. The collection was then passed off to my mom to distribute to my brothers who were a fair bit older than I.
The next time I was 'caught' with nekkid pictures I was in my teens and the only comment I got was "Well, you're not gay." Little did my mother know that said magazine had naked men and naked women in it. I don't think she would have cared either way, just what she remarked.

Posted by: MrFire | September 3, 2010 2:24 PM

Jules:

Bremner's acting is out of this world.

If you like Bremner, I submit to you his performance in one of my favorite films, Naked (The segment I've linked to neatly spans his entire time in the film). The fact that he's mostly unintelligible doesn't even seem to detract from it.

Then, of course, he's in Trainspotting.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 3, 2010 2:30 PM

*grumble grumble*

Hey hey, guess who's the proud owner of a frakked Xbox?

*grumble grumble* As if my week hasn't been bad enough.

Posted by: Randomfactor | September 3, 2010 2:33 PM

whenever nudie mags first came out.

Lascaux caves, wasn't it?

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 3, 2010 2:36 PM

@Randomfactor:

"Oh, Og. New 'Cavegirl' in Torg's cave."

Posted by: Lynna, OM | September 3, 2010 2:40 PM

Oh, good, some science behind the benefits of fish oil:

Fish oil is touted for its anti-inflammatory and anti-diabetic benefits, but scientist weren't sure how the omega-3 fatty acids in fish oil work. Now, according to a report in the September 3rd issue of the journal Cell, scientists have nailed how omega-3 fatty acids both shut down inflammation and reverse diabetes in obese mice.
     Omega-3s alleviate inflammation by acting on a receptor (GPR120) found in fat tissue and on inflammatory immune cells called macrophages, studies in mice show.
     "Omega-3s are very potent activators of GPR120 on macrophages -- more potent than any other anti-inflammatory we've ever seen," said Jerrold Olefsky of the University of California, San Diego.
     In fact, there are all sorts of ways to trigger inflammation, he added. Activation of GPR120 by omega-3s blocks not one, but all inflammatory pathways.
     GPR120 is a G protein-coupled receptor (GPCRs), a group involved in many important cell functions and that includes the targets of many drugs. Other researchers had recently shown that five orphan GPCRs, GPR120 included, respond to free fatty acids....

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | September 3, 2010 2:50 PM

a kilt and Trainspotting

Posted by: Lynna, OM | September 3, 2010 2:56 PM

Lynna - Evan... not Ewan... not an association I want with my name at all... (obviously how anyone called Ewan behaves is a direct reflection on all Ewans everywhere)

The offensive posts referencing "fags" have all been removed by the moderator at exmormon.org, so there is no longer an "Evan" to confuse with "Ewan."

I understand that the posts were offensive, but seeing them removed (along with the replies to them -- somewhat angrily profane replies), makes me appreciate Pharyngula even more. There's nothing like seeing a lying homophobe called to account. Just the corrections of "Evan's" pseudo-facts alone were worth reading. Now the whole conversation is much more polite, but also much less educational, less useful.

Posted by: Ogvorbis, Parenthetical Death | September 3, 2010 3:13 PM

I've noticed that some Americans speak English as a second language. Without having a first. TP seems to be one uv dem.

Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier | September 3, 2010 3:25 PM

Why would you want to live when all your family and friends have been killed, and everything which makes life worth living has been destroyed?

To make sure religion doesn't end up filling in the vacuum again. Also, after just finishing A Canticle for Leibowitz, the idea of wanting to perserve scientific knowledge for future generations springs to mind (the book has a very different idea than me of the role of the Church would play in this).

But Kel said it best. For sex.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 3, 2010 3:34 PM

@ Ogvorbis, SIotO,
Was this a practice in the same space as we discussed before? If so, how was the feedback?

Pro acts often use a second sound system broadcast towards them so that they can monitor how they sound while playing.

I am sure that I speak English as a second language. Typing lets me slow down a little and choose my words before I say them. It seems to help a fair bit.

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 3, 2010 3:39 PM

That was a pretty good movie. But I thought Trainspotting was obnoxious, myself.

I have The World's Biggest Crush™ on Werner Herzog, so I love it any time he shows up on film. Grizzly Man was another one I watched with rapt attention. I love his accent.

I've been psyching myself up to watch Trainspotting ever since it came out. But, like I said, I've got real-life junkies on my plate, so it'll probably be a while.

Posted by: Ewan R | September 3, 2010 3:48 PM

On Trainspotting - I watched the movie on what technically should have been my first date, ruined only by the fact that the date in question decided the day before that it wasn't a date and we were going out just as friends (saved me the price of admission at least!)

I prefer the book, if only because once finishing the first chapter you have to go back and read it again because it takes about that long to understand what the hell is going on (it's written in relatively impenetrable Scots dialect)

Although both the movie and the book are pretty obnoxious (Irvine Welsh in general is obnoxious)

In other news... I just made an access database spit numbers into an excel sheet and make graphs with all pretty error bars and whatnot. No dancing bears yet, but that will follow shortly. It only took me all bloody day (Access 2007 VBA programming for Dummies was helpful, but only as a paperweight for my note sheets - most of which are profanity laden when things didn't work) - I have to share that here as apparently on a long weekend my entire team buggers off to play in the sun.

With any luck this endeavor will win me another $50 gift card. Although likely not until Feb.

Posted by: MrFire | September 3, 2010 3:59 PM

I can't quite get my head round it.

I mean, it's 2012, and it's Palin's turn to speak at her first Presidential Debate. How is she going to avoid collapsing like the dumbfuck house-of-cards that she is, as soon as Obama calls her out on something? Whence will she get the thick skin to resist melting like the Wicked Witch, as soon as Obama turns the heat on her? What will be the magical sanity pill that she takes to enable her to think coherently, and on her feet, following an unexpected question? What brain surgery will she get to prevent her from going off message, and crashing and burning in front of the world in an embarrassing clusterfuck of non-English verbal diarrhea? And finally, what kind of fucking voodoo shit is she going to have to rely on to convince anyone other than her base that she is not a vapid, self-obsessed, dead-behind-the-eyes quit-addict who has all the statesmanlike qualities of a tub of cheese whiz?

Seriously. Sometimes all the debate coaching in the world can't change someone who is TSTKTS. And Palin is so very TSTKSS.

Oh wait.

GWB.

Never fucking mind.

Posted by: SQB (fuck death) | September 3, 2010 4:02 PM

Bogdammit! Did you guys pharyngulate shirt.woot.com? The cephalopod shirt is sold out!

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 3, 2010 4:07 PM

Fans of Tulsa or The Outsiders will be saddened by this report that the Admiral Twin has burned down.

I lived about a mile from there. This sucks.

Posted by: Travis | September 3, 2010 4:11 PM

Ol'Greg-OM, and Kev Quondam, Kevque Futurum.

I think filth can be a bonding experience. I watch porn with a friend of mine all of the time, we find stuff we like, laugh at some other stuff, she attempts to gross me out, something that is hard to do. And sometimes we are classy and read old Penthouse magazines she has (or buy old Penthouse from a store we go to). Anyway, we have a heck of a time.

Posted by: Markita Lynda: Healthcare is a damn right | September 3, 2010 4:12 PM

Jadehawk, what about the kitty? Are you at least being happily insane together?

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 3, 2010 4:19 PM

Is it Beer:30 yet?

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 3, 2010 4:27 PM

cicely
Yep. Double features all summer long. Today is a sad day for that town.

Posted by: Ogvorbis, Parenthetical Death | September 3, 2010 4:30 PM

Dhorvath:

Re: sound system.

No, this is a completely different system, non-NPS, which has been set up in the turntable area for speakers and other bands. I have no idea how we sound because, although it is a 3000 watt system with 40 speakers, I can't hear myself. Weird.

Posted by: Ogvorbis, Parenthetical Death | September 3, 2010 4:41 PM

Dhorvath:

And if this was something we did more than 15 times a year, we might go there.

The manager of our bookstore asked when we were going to cut a CD. Luckily, one of our members (the retired dean of a grad school program) knows the head of the communications department at a local college, so we might be able to have students cut the 'album' as a school project.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 5:10 PM

Why would you want to live when all your family and friends have been killed, and everything which makes life worth living has been destroyed?

Because I don't want to die.

Hekuni Cat, the Caine Caterpillar is awesome!

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 5:17 PM

I started reading Playboy when I was nine, my mother had a subscription to it.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | September 3, 2010 5:29 PM

Well, crap. There goes that brilliant idea.

I'm sure you're aware that Apple announced new iPod Touch models on Wednesday. You may also be aware that they run a promotion every year, giving a "free" iPod Touch (after rebate) to students (or teachers, or educational professionals) who purchase a new Mac around back-to-school time.

As I'm eligible for an educational discount (put two and two together here), I was going to buy a new MacBook Pro and iPod Touch...

... but the new models are not eligible for the rebate.

Blast.

Well, I guess I'll just have to buy the iPod Touch by itself. I'm still trying to decide between the 32GB and 64GB models. Which one should replace my 16GB iPhone 3G?

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 3, 2010 5:30 PM

no. the kitteh is still being treated like shit, and now I'm getting threatened and yelled at for refusing to treat it like shit, too.

At some point, the kitteh and/or I will be kicked out of this place, I'm afraid. *sigh*

:-( :-( :-(

That's horrible.

I can never understand people who mistreat cats. I mean, why? What motivates someone to be gratuitously cruel to a cute bundle of fluff? :-/

I feel guilty even when I accidentally squash craneflies and moths (when trying to trap them to remove them from my room, since they tend to fly in through open windows). I just can't understand the mindset of people who are intentionally cruel to animals. I dislike dogs, but even so, I would never deliberately hurt a dog for no reason.

Posted by: Qwerty | September 3, 2010 5:37 PM

Walton - I have friends at work who think it is inhumane to declaw a cat. They got angry at me when I told them a friend of my had her cats declawed. "Hey," I said, "Don't kill the messanger. These aren't MY kitties."

Anyhow, I too don't understand those who are cruel to animals, but I would like to kill the squirrel who keeps eating the tomatoes I am trying to grow!

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 3, 2010 5:38 PM

@ Walton,
How are petty people supposed to pull themselves up if they can't push something else down?

Posted by: Randomfactor | September 3, 2010 5:47 PM

Bogdammit! Did you guys pharyngulate shirt.woot.com? The cephalopod shirt is sold out!

Mea maxima culpa. As penance, I won't order one now that they're sold out.

But at least I have the squid-vs-ark one.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 3, 2010 5:59 PM

@ Jadehawk,
That is obscene. Cats are children. Why do they have one if they don't get that?
I think the kitty needs to find a new home, so should you, and maybe it could be together.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 6:02 PM

Dhorvath:

Cats are children.

No, they are not. They are domesticated animals, pets, which deserve to be treated with kindness and care.

Posted by: Dania | September 3, 2010 6:07 PM

I feel guilty even when I accidentally squash craneflies and moths

Me too. But I didn't feel guilty today when I fed a couple of snails that were eating my Bird's Nest Fern to the chickens. I don't use pesticides and I usually don't mind snails too much, but no one touches my Bird's Nest Fern, dammit!

Oh, and I accidentally cut an earthworm into two today. That was bad. I hope it can regenerate itself.

this is simply a failure of empathy: for me, cats are people; for them, cats are things.

I really don't understand why they despise their cat so much. Poor kitten. :(

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 6:09 PM

Oh no MrFire! Hope you weather it ok.

Jadehawk - when it comes down to moving day, tell them the cat comes with you or you call animal control to report abuse. :(

AE - Treat them as an anthropological experiment. Try and divine the meaning behind the words, and make up outlandish scenarios - is Dr. M. so upset about the curriculum change proposed by Dr. S. because they just broke off a torrid affair with each other? Is Dr. J. looking haggard because he is secretly moonlighting as a waiter to serve his antique spittoon addiction? More fun than falling asleep, anyway.

Posted by: Qwerty | September 3, 2010 6:11 PM

I dunno' Caine - My friend Alex calls her cats Sheridan and Jasmine her furry children.

Although I think children would have more sense than to barf on her blankets and comforters as Jasmine does.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 6:15 PM

Dhorvath, no problem. I just don't care for people assuming that animals are kid substitutes, which I happen to run into a lot.

By the way, declawing a cat is cruelty. No one should declaw a cat. It's not like nail trimming. One of our rescues was declawed; not the full thing though, her joints weren't removed, just severed. It's a fucking travesty to do that to an animal. If someone doesn't want a cat using its claws, they shouldn't have a cat.

Posted by: Aquaria | September 3, 2010 6:20 PM

Sadly, you can indeed get Mexican food in Mexico that is not even close to "real" Mexican food. Especially around most of the bigger towns like Cabo San Lucas. They do tend to cater to tourists in a lot of places. Sometimes, you actually have to ask locals where the actual mexican food is served!

Let's put it this way:

If that's how food is at the fat-ass American resort towns nowadays, that co-worker would have been in hog heaven. She didn't like that the Mexican food wasn't like the stuff back home!

The big difference being that I wasn't terribly mercantile at that age so I just brought a centrefold to school and got caught showing it off.

Ha! I got in trouble for taking an entire Playgirl to school at 12.

It was my aunt's. She, uh, forgot to take it when she left after a long visit.

Maybe she forgot it because I hid it behind my parents' 60s era hi-fi system that was the size of a tank.

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | September 3, 2010 6:24 PM

Yes, I'm aware some people do. I think every single one of them needs a serious slap upside the fucking head too.

Posted by: Qwerty | September 3, 2010 6:28 PM

Caine - It was funny about my work friends getting mad at me when the declawed cats were not mine. Anyhow, I agree that declawing is bad but otherwise, my friends to a first rate job of taking care of their cats.

If the kitten bonds to its owner as if it were their parent, doesn't that entitle the owner to think of their cats as furry children?

Although this sentiment of my pet is my child is rather cloying.

Posted by: Dania | September 3, 2010 6:31 PM

since I always thought of cats as roommates/best friends.

Yep. And they're usually better at that than most people.

Posted by: Ch'tturgha | September 3, 2010 6:34 PM

Scarier than "dog = ready for children" people are the "our marriage was in trouble so we reproduced" people...

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 6:36 PM

vets often assume this is how people relate to their pets, too. which is creepy, since I always thought of cats as roommates/best friends.

Yep, companions. A lot of vets think that way because of the sappy crowd running around treating their pet exactly like they would a baby, strollers, the whole 9 yards. *spits*

Really, if you need a reality check in that regard, just how competent are you, in taking care of an animal. It's an animal. If you forget that, you're not doing it right.

Posted by: Qwerty | September 3, 2010 6:40 PM

Caine - Your mention of "strollers" made me laugh as it reminded me of the time I went on the Aids Walk and there was a woman with her dog in a stroller.

She said the dog did walk but it couldn't possibly do the entire five mile walk; so, she brought the stoller with for when her dog tired of walking.

Posted by: Ch'tturgha | September 3, 2010 6:42 PM

Those folks are scarier than your name. How could adding stress possibly make up for a bad match? I think that situation is all too often the case unfortunately.

My ex-wife once mentioned to me (during one of the particularly soul-grinding portions of our marriage) her parents had suggested maybe having a kid would help us work some of those problems out. That may or may not have been how she had a younger brother, incidentally. Thankfully, I not only totally disagreed with the entire concept that could possibly help, but also recognized it hadn't exactly made her parents' marriage a happier one.

Thankfully, current wife does not have ideas on solving marital problems through pregnancy.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 6:43 PM

Jadehawk:

they're not babies

QFT.

Posted by: ronsullivan | September 3, 2010 6:47 PM

7.2 is what I'd call a big-ass quake. IIRC the one that flattened a piece of freeway and broke the SF Bay Bridge some years back was around that big. I'd feel better if someone from NZ were up in the middle of the night and hailed us here.

Caine, consider subverting the child. Wince and say "Ow!" when she does anything nasty to the cat, ask her if she likes to be picked up whatever way, poked, etc. There's a hell of a big excluded middle between throwing the cat around and "treating it like a child."

Or tell her that her parents are practicing on the cat and she's next. OK, well, don't.

Posted by: Dania | September 3, 2010 6:52 PM

I'd feel better if someone from NZ were up in the middle of the night and hailed us here.

Me too.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 3, 2010 6:57 PM

@ Ch'tturgha,

My ex-wife once mentioned to me (during one of the particularly soul-grinding portions of our marriage) her parents had suggested maybe having a kid would help us work some of those problems out. That may or may not have been how she had a younger brother, incidentally. Thankfully, I not only totally disagreed with the entire concept that could possibly help, but also recognized it hadn't exactly made her parents' marriage a happier one.

I hate this whole inclusive ideology that seems to permeate parents. "You'll understand when you have one." "You'll wonder how you ever got along without one." "You'll regret it if you don't have kids." Gahhh! Kids are work, they take up a huge amount of time, patience, money, and sleep. I have a child and I think he's pretty good. I like him, play with him, teach him, care for him, etc. I'm pretty grounded and really very laid back in RL, but I have days where I just want time off from the miserable ingrate. (Tongue in cheek, but lips pulled back in a grimace.)

There is no source of frustration I have ever encountered anywhere else in life that compares to being a parent. There is no way on Earth that I think that anyone should just leap in and I vehemently oppose the idea that everyone should procreate.

End of rant.

Happy Friday, 'cept for Ogvorbis.

Posted by: Katrina, radicales féministes athées | September 3, 2010 7:02 PM

I doted on my cats, we treated them really well but I did not put sweaters on them unless it was thrown on top of one to tease it.

In fact, when we moved back to Washington from southern Italy, I ended up getting another doggy sweater for her. That way, she could go out onto the deck for a bit without her "old bones" getting too cold.

Posted by: Travis | September 3, 2010 7:07 PM

Katrina,
Our winters in New Brunswick (Canada, not NJ) are pretty damn cold as well. We never put a sweater on the cats but then again they always thought they wanted outside in the winter until the door was opened. Then they would either run away or stand outside looking miserable for the most part.

Posted by: MrFire | September 3, 2010 7:10 PM

Re: foreign food in foreign countries

I think us British have a curious spin on that. When some of us go to a foreign country, especially those going to get drunk in the Mediterranean, we typically demand, loudly and obnoxiously, for our own food. That's right...why sample the sun-kissed delights of Spanish tapas or Greek meze when you can have an oil-soaked plate bangers n' mash, just the way your local Pig & Whistle makes it back home on those rain-soaked nights?

Posted by: Katrina, radicales féministes athées | September 3, 2010 7:17 PM

Travis, she didn't mind the cold as much then, but that was more than 15 years ago. Now the mild Pacific Northwest is too cold in the winter. She still goes outside on her tether now and then, but she prefers a warm cushion in the sun.

Or the heat vent under my laptop.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | September 3, 2010 7:18 PM

On the subject of foreign food,
When I was in Cambodia, I had a hamburger. It turns out Cambodians like there hamburger to have very milky bread (because they like to dip it in coffee), so I kept tasting milk in it.

You know the most missed name food out there is the so called Mongolian grill. It's Chinese/Japanese, goddamit. If it were truly Monglian, you'd have alot more dairy and wheat in it.

Posted by: MrFire | September 3, 2010 7:24 PM

You wouldn't find me in the same house with a kid.

That's technically not true.

At the last Atheist Orgy^TM, I distinctly remember you lining up at baby rotisserie station.

Posted by: Weed Monkey | September 3, 2010 7:28 PM

MrFire, it's not only you Britons who do that. There are holiday villages in the Canary Islands full of Finnish pensioners, who have their own bars and shops serving meatballs, rye bread and Koskenkorva. Complete with karaoke with Finnish tango (it's not the same as Argentinian, trust me).

(I certainly enjoy meatballs and rye bread, but hate the idea of going somewhere and trying to turn it into wherever you just left. Koskenkorva on the other hand, I'll be quite happy without. It's just mysteriously overrated almost-vodka.)

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 3, 2010 7:32 PM

Mr Fire:

Up here in MA, Earl is right on our asses.

It just started raining here in upstate New York. I'm feelin' for you guys that are closer to the coast-- we're only going to get some of the residual rain w/ none of the wind damage and such.

Stay safe, New Englanders.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 3, 2010 7:38 PM

@ Menyambal

Now, through strange circumstances and a few innocent mistakes, I find myself trying to be a parent, and I find myself frustrated as hell.

Sorry to hear about that, we had ours on purpose, and I can't really imagine taking the surprised route. I can't tell you that it gets better, every parent is different, every child is different, and the interaction is complex. I can recommend that you keep communication open with your SO if at all possible. A partner is far better than an adversary.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | September 3, 2010 7:40 PM

The word of the day, brought to you by John Morales.

recalcitrant

Posted by: David Marjanović | September 3, 2010 7:43 PM

Desperate attempt to catch up with the previous subthread.

But first, it's now possible to study sustainability in Vienna. Progress! :-) For getting the site in English, click near the bottom left corner.

Then, there's this Tet Zoo post about the Burmese pythons of the Everglades.

Finally, there are stickers between the Economy University of Vienna and the subway: für eine Welt ohne Knäste, "for a world without slammers". They're by the Anarchist Black Cross.

Pannonia

? I had to look it up, but afaict Vienna isn't even close.

The Pannonian plain starts here – and Vindobona actually belonged to the Roman province of Pannonia back in the day.

As long as you move around a bit and walk down to the bagging area occasonally to keep the venous return from your legs going, I don't see why it would be unhealthy.

OK, that might be enough... might.

"The general rule of thumb is that you do not raise taxes or cut spending during an economic downturn. That would be counterproductive,"

...I'll just let that stand uncommented.

I know that Aldi cashiers sit (and are superhumanly fast)

Hmmm. You know where Aldi is from, right?

How many Democrats does it take to change a lightbulb? 60

Into my quote folder.

And I support the universal right to unionise.

is that so. have you changed your mind on that other favorite of Libertarians, the "right to work"*pftui* laws? because a union in a "right to work" state is just playing pretend; it's useless.

Heh. That reminds me of the Asterix volume Obelix & Co., where the menhir business somehow puts lots of slaves in Rome out of work. They walk around with banners saying "JOBS FOR US SLAVES", and in Caesar's palace someone argues: "The slave's only right is the right to work. He shouldn't be deprived of it."

From what you're saying, it sounds like similar low-level jobs in the US make their employees work much harder just for the sake of it, without any actual increase in productivity. That's really quite depressing.

You know one of the countries with a higher productivity than the US?

France.

Though some of the examples you mention - the East India Company, certainly, and drug cartels in some failed states today - are really acting as de facto governments, in a power vacuum left by weak or nonexistent government. But that, admittedly, doesn't affect the force of your argument.

Not only that, but the exact opposite! It shows what corporations do when governments don't stop them.

Back in the 60's I was working for a company who were selling the design of a Zinc/Lead smelter to China. A large part of the cost of the plant (were it to be built in Europe) would be in pollution control measures. The Chinese (the government in those days)did not intend to spend this money and proposed to leave the the plant open and allow the wind to blow the lead fume away. Eventually one of the Brit process engineers told his opposite number 'You will never be able to operate the plant because the operators will die from lead poisioning faster than you can train their replacements'

It's not just corporations that can behave with total disregard for their employees, governments can as well.

Today, China's government is a corporation.

In the 60s, it wasn't. Instead, it was... Do I need to go on? Seriously?

==========================

Having seen the dumbest shirts at the Glenn Beck rally, I interrupt here, will work a little (even though it's a quarter to 2 am), and then try to catch up with the current subthread. Sven, haven't there been records in commenting rate lately?

Posted by: Sal Bro | September 3, 2010 7:47 PM

Carlie:

About 40,000 years ago, but it was more interactive than a magazine. 3D ftw.

Posted by: Menyambal: Making sambal (it isn't dragon magic). | September 3, 2010 7:50 PM

Thanks, Dhorvath.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 7:51 PM

Gyeong Hwa, on the recalcitrant front, I also like contumacious. Good words.

Posted by: Sal Bro | September 3, 2010 8:02 PM

I got derailed by teh thread, but I popped in because I stumbled on this porn on wikipedia. I'd guess that this has already circulated through here at least once before, but it was too good to pass up.

Having been bitten by a little octopus once, the picture made me shudder. Ouch.

Posted by: Hekuni Cat, Champion of Oriana | September 3, 2010 8:09 PM

Caine:

Hekuni Cat, the Caine Caterpillar is awesome!

I'm glad you liked it!

Posted by: JeffreyD | September 3, 2010 8:25 PM

Mattir - congrats on going for your Emancipation papers.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 8:32 PM

Ha! I just saw my little brother's FB status is "Darned magnets, I inquire how doth they function?"
I love my family.

Yea Mattir!

Posted by: Menyambal: Making sambal (it isn't dragon magic). | September 3, 2010 8:37 PM

Mattir, congratulations, good for you, good luck to you and thanks for sharing both your decision and that interesting letter.

Posted by: Sal Bro | September 3, 2010 8:42 PM

Way to go, Mattir! Great letter.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 8:46 PM

Josh darling! How have you been? Big holiday weekend planned?

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 8:52 PM

Carlie, my ghoulfriend! Nah, just some White Lady stuff around the house. Seems everyone in my neighborhood is actually partying next weekend (don't know why), and I'm broke this week anyway:)

Posted by: ronsullivan | September 3, 2010 8:54 PM

Holy shit, did I ever get my ego polished today! (The comment's from Saxon Holt—we finally got around to talking with him, if only by phone.)

Caine: Auntie Ron, that was Jadehawk you meant to address. You wouldn't find me in the same house with a kid.

Oops, sorry, yes of course. I decided the same about, oh, 30 years ago, and got my tubes tied. Mom had six and I was the first, so I figured I'd done my share. That was the same year I started work in the pediatric hospital. Eight hours a day was enough. I hang out with kids just fine and there are people I quite like who are kids; I just never got around to childproofing my brain.

Jadehawk, I missed whose house this is, though I remember why you've landed there. Family?

Enjoy your pet for what it is, let it be a cat, dog, rat, turtle, etc.

I have told people that treating a dog like a child is no better than treating a child like a dog. Sometimes they get it.

Actus Formalis Defectionis Ab Ecclesia Catholica

Coooooooool!

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | September 3, 2010 8:56 PM

I was baptized at 14, as a result of my mother's hope that the RCC would make me less interested in slutty fun. Didn't work.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 9:00 PM

I was baptized at 14, as a result of my mother's hope that the RCC would make me less interested in slutty fun. Didn't work.

Ha! So you've just being trying to drag me into the next decade with you, huh?

/your own personal tormenting Pikachu

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 9:07 PM

Me too, Carlie, #309. Actually, I've liked every decade better than the one before, a pattern I hope continues.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | September 3, 2010 9:07 PM

Oh look, Montana Teabagger's wetdreams about lynching gay people.
Here

I cannot abide clubs anymore, no way, no how (this will happen to you within ten years, too).

Oh what a party pooper.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 9:15 PM

Oh what a party pooper.

Au contraire. The circle o'friends has regular parties, which we often close out at 2 a.m. They are, however, civilized. They include:

1. Food, and lots of it.

2. A place to sit.

3. 5 fucktons of varying alcoholic beverages that do not cost $6 per unit.

4. Conversation that ranges beyond "OMG do u c that guy over there?"

They do not include:

1. Cover charges

2. The social necessity to buy the very most expensive bleeding edge clothing

3. Vain, insouciant kids whose sole purpose is to appear oh-so-above-it-all but who are actually desperately insecure and whose emotional world will crumble if they are not hit on

4. Stupid-loud music that prevents actual socializing

You seem to think I've never sampled the delights of clubbing as a young 'un, Pikachu. Not so. I was prancing my ass off in NYC discotheques when you were barely out of Garanimals. Tastes change over time. And yes, girl, it will happen to you!

Bwaaaa-ha-haaaa.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 9:19 PM

count me in.

Into what? Did you finally get your finished and found it surprisingly roomy?

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | September 3, 2010 9:23 PM

Archaeologist Tired Of Unearthing Unspeakable Ancient Evils

Concerning a subject that evidence suggests is of Great Importance to the average Pharygulite.

the kitteh is still being treated like shit, and now I'm getting threatened and yelled at for refusing to treat it like shit, too.

But I didn't feel guilty today when I fed a couple of snails that were eating my Bird's Nest Fern to the chickens.

*voice-over* Welcome to...The Food Chain. *cue theme from "Wild Kingdom"*

Is Dr. J. looking haggard because he is secretly moonlighting as a waiter to serve his antique spittoon addiction?

Does he smoke them, or inject them?

Scarier than "dog = ready for children" people are the "our marriage was in trouble so we reproduced" people...

Word. Now there are at least three people involved the the suck-hole of the relationship, and with even more stress than before.

every parent is different, every child is different, and the interaction is complex.

This can never be stated often enough. Kids aren't cookie-cutter product. And neither are cats. Some like to be held tummy-side-up, and some even *gasp* enjoy baths.

The word of the day, brought to you by John Morales.

recalcitrant

Meaning, of course, "infused with calcium and citrates for a second time". ;)

Gyeong Hwa, on the recalcitrant front, I also like contumacious. Good words.

Meaning, rather obviously, "having an awesomely large belly", which probably wants scratching.
By extension, "descriptive of a position, belly-up on the floor, soliciting a tummy rub".

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 3, 2010 9:27 PM

Josh
Sounds like my kind of partying. Especially if you add in the part where you push the furniture up against the walls and dance your ass off to music played at a sensible volume.

This past xmas we did that at the party I went to. The music was actually so quiet that if anyone talked, it almost drowned it out. Perhaps we were a bit over the top with our respect for the neighbors, but I can assure you that a wonderful time was had by all even though our ears weren't bleeding.

However, I can't say that I would've expected college-aged kids to have found us cool. But what do they know?

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | September 3, 2010 9:30 PM

RBDC 317: erk....erkkkk......HUAARFFFFF!

*oh gross*

ptoo!

Thanks a lot

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 9:32 PM

Josh - me too. I was younger than my peers through all of the K-12 experience and was teased constantly about it, so I've always looked at aging as a good thing.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 9:32 PM

However, I can't say that I would've expected college-aged kids to have found us cool. But what do they know?

Oh, for sure Jules. I would have hated that kind of party 15 years ago, and would have roundly mocked the participants.

So it is with me and Pikachu. He must tease me, and I must chide him. It's the nature of our relationship.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 3, 2010 9:34 PM

Josh:

3. 5 fucktons of varying alcoholic beverages that do not cost $6 per unit.

Where the hell can you get beverages for $6?!

I need to move.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 9:37 PM

Josh, so are you old enough to be considered a spinster yet?

I prefer "Maiden Aunt," thank you very much.

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 3, 2010 9:39 PM

Where the hell can you get beverages for $6?!

My favorite bar in Tulsa had $5 for a domestic and any shot. They also had Tom Waits and Joan Jett on the jukebox.

Man, I miss that place.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 3, 2010 9:41 PM

Josh:
When was the last time you checked? $6 will get you a beer, but it's not uncommon to pay $8 and up for cocktails.

Unless you're talking dives. Then you can drink dirt cheap.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 9:42 PM

*sigh* I wish I could be an atheist matchmaker and set up all my single IRL friends with all the awesome Pharyngulites. (because, of course, I just *know* it would work...)

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | September 3, 2010 9:47 PM

When was the last time you checked? $6 will get you a beer, but it's not uncommon to pay $8 and up for cocktails.

At my local gay bar, on domestic drafts is only $2 and on certian days, certian drinks are as little as $3. And the bartender is cute.

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 3, 2010 9:47 PM

Unless you're talking dives. Then you can drink dirt cheap.

But the fancy bar across the street from it has nice drinks for affordable prices too. I could get a Talisker 12-year for $8, and they had a heavy pour.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 9:52 PM

Bars have always baffled me because of my lack of exposure, so I'm terribly uncomfortable in them. You have to know what kind of drink you want to order ahead of time, because there's no list to choose from, and sometimes they even ask you what brand of whatever you want in it and I have no idea, and then I'm never sure how much to tip for each drink, and there's staying in one place or walking around and it's all so confusing. I need a bar mentor.

Posted by: David Marjanović | September 3, 2010 9:55 PM

The work is done! It's almost 4 am, so I'll go to bed rather than try to catch up beyond comment 114:

David - I'm still confused on the testing. How did you take an entire class but finish all the tests? Or are those like separate standardized tests that one usually takes after the class but not always?

The course was a lecture (professor standing in front and giving a series of talks about the subject), not laboratory practice or something. This means that attendance was not compulsory. What counts is the exam*, which follows sometime after the course has ended; how I get the necessary knowledge for the exam (whether by attending the course or reading books at home or whatever – just not the neighbors at the exam) is completely irrelevant.**

Next, it wasn't a compulsory course. This means that I didn't need to take the exam. The entire course was just for fun for me. I needed exams over specific courses, and exams over a certain amount of hours per week per semester*** over courses I was free to choose from certain subjects, but I sat in a couple more lectures just for fun.

In German, "school" and "university" are a pair of opposites. "School" means a strict schedule where everything**** is compulsory; university means freedom, the freedom of adults.

* Oral or written depending on the professor's preferences. Obviously, most prefer written ones, because they're less work to organize unless the number of students is very small.
** Of course, there are professors who want you to physically attend their lectures. They say things in their lectures that can't be (easily) found in textbooks and then ask questions about it in the exam. That's perfectly legal. Others, however, put their PowerPoint slides on the university website or print and sell the lecture contents.
*** Years don't exist in Austrian universities. The unit of time is the semester.
**** Slight exaggeration, especially in the last few years, but it's all a lot stricter than in the US.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 3, 2010 9:57 PM

Carlie:
I usually tip $0.50 to $1 per drink. And you can always just order something simple like a rum & coke with well rum.

Or check out the beers on tap, that works too.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 3, 2010 9:58 PM

Bars have always baffled me because of my lack of exposure, so I'm terribly uncomfortable in them. You have to know what kind of drink you want to order ahead of time, because there's no list to choose from, and sometimes they even ask you what brand of whatever you want in it and I have no idea, and then I'm never sure how much to tip for each drink, and there's staying in one place or walking around and it's all so confusing. I need a bar mentor.

Come to bar with me you must young padawan

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 9:58 PM

Ichthyic:

*runs screaming by, looking for something to throw at Nick Matzke*

Holds out flaming torch.

Posted by: MrFire | September 3, 2010 10:00 PM

Ah, Lady Josh: a perfect evisceration of the night club ethos @314. That said, I HATED it even when I was Pikachu's age.

Much preferred the quiet(er) dive bars discussed above. Or the not-so-quiet dive bars with live music.

Posted by: Sal Bro | September 3, 2010 10:02 PM

Carlie,

You have to know what kind of drink you want to order ahead of time, because there's no list to choose from

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 10:09 PM

*runs screaming by, looking for something to throw at Nick Matzke*

Ichthyic, thanks to this line, I now have Rincewind running through my brain, a la him running through the dungeon dimension in Faust Eric.

Josh:

let's do Lady Ja Ja.

No.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 10:15 PM

Ah, Caine, all the cool kids are doing it!

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 3, 2010 10:18 PM

So no one actually knew - but I'm in Pennsylvania, trip was fine. Am now at parents.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 10:23 PM

Rev - I would totally go. At the giant magical Pharyngufest, anyone who's not bonking Walton can show me how to order drinks. :)

David - I see. The way it works here is that the tests are given during the semester, and grades handed out at the end. Anyone who tries to not do the tests at the appropriate times during the semester gains the wrath of the professor, and either fails or is given a temporary incomplete if the professor is feeling especially generous and it was a real emergency that kept them from finishing.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 10:24 PM

Josh:

Ah, Caine, all the cool kids are doing it!

I'm supposed to care about that? I set trends, I don't follow them, Dear.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 10:27 PM

Ok, so I have tipping down. Is it ok to ask the bartender to recommend drinks, or is that too basic/n00b/dorky?

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 10:29 PM

And how do I have any idea how much the drinks cost without getting in over my head pocketbook? "Yes, the single-malt 20 year old Scotch sounds lovely, thanks."

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 3, 2010 10:29 PM

Ok, so I have tipping down. Is it ok to ask the bartender to recommend drinks, or is that too basic/n00b/dorky?

No, but it's usually a good idea to have some idea what sort liquor you like.

What do you like? What drinks that you can remember that you've enjoyed?

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 3, 2010 10:31 PM

So... my Xbox red-ring-of-deathed today, which was like the fucking cherry on top of my shitty shitty week.

BUT! It's covered under warranty until Sept 22 for this problem! They're even paying for the shipping! *dance dance dance!*

Posted by: Menyambal: Making sambal (it isn't dragon magic). | September 3, 2010 10:33 PM

Speaking of music volume:

I used to go contra dancing a lot. Good fun and good people, and good acoustic fiddle music. But, of course, an amplifier and speaker system for the band, 'cause the dancing can get noisy.

My two favorite memories are the dances where the music went quiet. Once a band just let the music die away in the middle, and we all kept time with just the sound of our feet on the wood floor. The best was the night the power went out--we found some mosquito candles, lit them, and the fiddler stood up and played waltzes.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 10:35 PM

Rev - no idea, that's my problem. I know I like scotch, I know I like lambic beer, I know I like stouts, mulled wines, spiced vodka... I guess I'm kind of trending towards strong dark tastes? The few times I've been in bars I want to experiment, but don't even have a clue where to start.

Josh - they have wine at Big Boy?

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 3, 2010 10:38 PM

And how do I have any idea how much the drinks cost without getting in over my head pocketbook? "Yes, the single-malt 20 year old Scotch sounds lovely, thanks."

You can ask. That's ok.

Some bars have price lists for the varying levels

"Well" always means the cheapest liquor they have. Its the bottles that are at the bartender's waist level, usually in a tray that that runs the length of the bar. The bottles behind on the shelves are more expensive. They are called "Call" drinks. There are always gin, bourbon, scotch, vodka, tequila and rum of all expense levels the bar has.

You don't need to order by "well" or "call". If you just order a Vodka soda, you'll more than likely get "Well" Vodka.

To order a "call" drink you'll need to order by the Brand, typically. It can vary depending on the bar.

For example a Kettle One and soda. That would be a call drink, Kettle One vodka and soda.

There will be more variety the more expensive you go until you get to the most expensive.

But I'm seeing more and more top shelf liquor varieties at many bars.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 10:41 PM

The Bob's Big Boy in SoCal didn't serve alcohol. (The one that was up by South Coast Plaza, before South Coast Village or whatever the fuck it was called was built.)

Posted by: Rorschach | September 3, 2010 10:45 PM

Got to run, wolf down some food then off to work.I've taken a pic of my green thingie growing out of the Leek bulb, it's on the blog if anyone wants to have a look.I have to say, it's grown a fair bit in the last few days, and is starting to resemble a Leek somewhat !

So once again I'm left out, and all I can do is sit in a corner and be bored.

I'll sit this one out with you....;)

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 10:47 PM

Yes, MrFire, the US tipping-to-be-able-to-have-a-living-wage system is insane, cruel, medieval and a scandal. Absolutely, and I want to change it too.

But nothing made me want to spit in a customer's food more than overseas patrons who couldn't bring themselves to "believe it", and insisted on not tipping, or tipping very cheaply, because "well, that can't be true, because we don't do it that way."

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 3, 2010 10:51 PM

Oh and caveat, I'm not much of a rum drinker so there very well could be some choices there I'm missing or are way better suited.

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | September 3, 2010 10:53 PM

Slight exaggeration, especially in the last few years, but it's all a lot stricter than in the US.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 10:55 PM

SpokesGay:

But nothing made me want to spit in a customer's food more than overseas patrons who couldn't bring themselves to "believe it", and insisted on not tipping,

I should add, for fairness, that these were the minority of the bad tippers. Infuriatingly, the people who tipped the absolute worst were the poor customers (use whatever metric you like to judge that; we knew who they were). They consistently tipped far, far below anything reasonable, and were among the most demanding.

It really angered us waitstaff, because we were thinking, "Hey, we're just as poor and working class as you are - why are you fucking us over? Would you want to be treated that way?"

Takeaway: If you think you're too poor to tip, then you don't have enough money to eat out at a sit-down restaurant. Get takeout. You don't get to screw over fellow workers in your own economic class. No exceptions.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 10:58 PM

Caine, yeah, them too. The church-goers were particularly rotten tippers. Families from church who come in for brunch on Sundays are universally loathed by all waiters and waitresses because we know (and it is largely true) that they're shitty tippers. If any of them are wondering why they don't waited on hand and foot. . .

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 3, 2010 11:00 PM

Thanks for all the tips - especially the breakdown of what the heck all those bottle levels in the back of the bar are!

Definitely agree on the tipping. There's also the fact to keep in mind (for our non-tipping country counterparts) that the tips are often collected and spread out between waiters, buspeople, and hosts, so the waiter is getting a lot less from your tip than you think.

It really angered us waitstaff, because we were thinking, "Hey, we're just as poor and working class as you are - why are you fucking us over? Would you want to be treated that way?"

Yep. Just the fact that I'm sitting and eating and they're running around bringing it to me is already me having a much better night than they are at the moment, so why stiff them on top of it?

Posted by: MrFire | September 3, 2010 11:01 PM

But nothing made me want to spit in a customer's food more than overseas patrons who couldn't bring themselves to "believe it",

Yeah, and I'm ashamed to have been one of those people once upon a time. I've been doing 20% upward since then. And don't worry, I don't do it at all grudgingly as regards the waitstaff. No, my guns are aimed squarely at those in power who don't want the system to change.

For now, though, I'll concentrate on doing my part to help waiters keep a roof over their heads.

Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier | September 3, 2010 11:03 PM

Haven't the Iraqis suffered enough? Now they're getting American-style reality TV shows imposed on them:

The show “Put Him in [Camp] Bucca” has drawn numerous protests but has stayed on air throughout the fasting month, broadcasting its “stings” on well-known Iraqi personalities.

All of them were ensnared by being invited to the headquarters of the private television station Al Baghdadia to be interviewed, but en route to the station a fake bomb would be planted in their car while they were being searched by Iraqi soldiers, who were in on the deception.

The unwitting celebrities are then secretly filmed, Candid-Camera-style, as they reacted with shock, disbelief and anger as fake checkpoint guards shout abuse at them: “Why do you want to blow us up?” “You are a terrorist.” “How much did they pay you to do it? You will be executed.”

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 11:08 PM

Josh:

The church-goers were particularly rotten tippers. Families from church who come in for brunch on Sundays are universally loathed by all waiters and waitresses because we know (and it is largely true) that they're shitty tippers. If any of them are wondering why they don't waited on hand and foot. . .

Yep. It was more than being rotten tippers though. Incredibly entitlement minded, complaining constantly and seriously enjoying treating waitstaff like shit. I used to wonder if they were having biblical fantasies about owning slaves.

The only other group like that were the large family people, usually a 12 top, screaming kids, major mess and zero to little tip.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 11:10 PM

The only other group like that were the large family people, usually a 12 top, screaming kids, major mess and zero to little tip.

Grumble, grumble. Yep.

I'll restrain myself from further (accurate, though inflammatory) remarks about the consistently appalling tipping behavior of other kinds of customers.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 11:13 PM

I also recall hearing that some of these church-types would leave salvation tracts in lieu of a tip.

It's absolutely true, what Carlie said. Some Christians would leave a little note-tarted up on the outside to look like American currency-tucked between the glasses on the dirty table. You'd open it find something like, "Here's a tip worth more than any amount of money - Jesus has forgiven you!"

Oh, how I fucking loathed those people.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 3, 2010 11:16 PM

This is the first I've ever heard of tipping at a bar. I don't drink much, so I've never ran a tab, I just hand them money, then they hand me back the change. I mean, if I just leave a dollar on the bar on a crowded night, are they even going to find it? Sheesh, rules.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 3, 2010 11:18 PM

Oh, how I fucking loathed those people.

Not that I got many church types in the bar, if some jackhole drank all night and didn't tip, I'd jump the bar and chase his ass down to find out what the problem was.

Usually didn't end in me getting a tip, but it made me feel better making them look like an ass at the bar.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 3, 2010 11:18 PM

And just so's everybody knows, I do tip at restaurants.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | September 3, 2010 11:23 PM

Oh, how I fucking loathed those people.

I was at forzen yogurt shop and they put one on every table because I really want read about how I'm going to hell when I eat yogurt.

It's almost as bad as the missionaries who come after you just because you're eating lunch alone.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 3, 2010 11:27 PM

This is the first I've ever heard of tipping at a bar. I don't drink much, so I've never ran a tab, I just hand them money, then they hand me back the change. I mean, if I just leave a dollar on the bar on a crowded night, are they even going to find it? Sheesh, rules.

Yes. You'd be surprised at the keen ability of a seasoned bartender to keep track of all tips on a bar at any given moment and their ability to sweep them from the bar while concurrently taking and filling orders. Even on the busiest of nights.

Woe is the asshole that get's busted taking a tip from a bar.

Always remember, there may be one bartender, but more than likely they have many friends who have been getting drinks from them all night and its in their buzz's best interest to keep the bartender happy so that continues until the final bell.

Plus as a bartender I usually had a pretty good relationship with the local police. Mind you I bartended in small ski towns, but if I reported something like that, they responded and fast.

Of course I probably lost a few tips here and there, but over all I rarely ever saw anyone dare to take one from the bar.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 11:28 PM

Caine,

Yeah, I didn't spend most of my time exacting revenge, cuz I would have been out of a job. I was a really good waiter, too, and put myself through college working in restaurants and bars full-time. But I retain a special loathing for assholes who treat waitstaff like proletariat scum.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 3, 2010 11:29 PM

Thanks, Rev.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 3, 2010 11:31 PM

Also, can I go to the bar with you and Carlie?

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 3, 2010 11:34 PM

And since I'm posting faster than I'm thinking tonight, I'll also mention that one time I spent several minutes at a bar hanging out in that space between the two metal bars because there was nowhere else to stand. Yeah.

I'm in grad school now so I'm gaining experience.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 11:35 PM

MrFire:

Josh, I hope you didn't get the impression I was trying to displace the real plight of waiters in the here-and-now with possibly high-minded but in practice flip ideals .

Have no fear. Your commendable sympathies are always apparent, and you don't need to apologize nearly as much as you do. Your good guy cred is always apparent:)

I save my ire for people like Rey Fox, whose comment is making me more pissed by the minute.

Mr. Fox, let me make this crystal-clear for you:

1. Waiters and bartenders in the US are exempt from being paid the minimum wage. Read that again until it sinks in. Remember that the minimum wage is a paltry $7.25 per hour.

2. Unless the state you work in (only a handful) requires businesses to pay servers the minimum wage, you'll find many of them earn less than three dollar per hour. 11 years ago, I was earning $2.18 per hour from my employer when the minimum wage was more than $5 per hour.

So, don't be all breezy and dismissive about your lack of knowledge about how to tip waitstaff. It's not funny.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 11:35 PM

Rey, another thing - bartending is damn hard work, magnified on a busy night. Bartenders have to deal with all manner of shit, all manner of people and attitudes; people hollering for drinks, waitstaff hollering for their orders to be filled, etc.

It may not occur to some people to tip their bartender, especially if they, like yourself, don't spend much time at bars or drink much. All it takes is spending one seriously busy night at a popular bar watching the bartender to see what hard work it is and why they do deserve those tips.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 3, 2010 11:38 PM

Also, can I go to the bar with you and Carlie?

Duh! Of course.

And since I'm posting faster than I'm thinking tonight, I'll also mention that one time I spent several minutes at a bar hanging out in that space between the two metal bars because there was nowhere else to stand. Yeah.
I'm in grad school now so I'm gaining experience.

Luckily I never had those at my bars because I had no waitstaff.

Posted by: MrFire | September 3, 2010 11:40 PM

But I do have to complain about waiters (who aren't otherwise hopping) who assume I'm going to be a lousy tipper before I even get the check and so are shitty to me until they process my payment.

Perhaps we can invoke 'Josh's Law' here: when in doubt, over-tip. Anyone can have a bad day, especially waitstaff.

You might be pleasantly surprised the next time you come around, too.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 11:45 PM

Cicely:

Also, while tipping is great, it also doesn't hurt to treat the waitstaff like people.

Golden words, Lady, and the truth.

Dianne:

What are these people thinking?

That's easy, they think they're entitled. Entitled to be loudmouthed, complaining slobs.

Posted by: Dianne | September 3, 2010 11:49 PM

But nothing made me want to spit in a customer's food more than overseas patrons who couldn't bring themselves to "believe it", and insisted on not tipping, or tipping very cheaply, because "well, that can't be true, because we don't do it that way."

I'm the opposite sort of customer: I can't bring myself to not tip when in Europe because I always fear that they'll take up US style not paying the waiters when I'm not paying attention and I'll be screwing someone out of their ability to pay rent by not leaving 20%. What the waiters in Germany think of my tipping 2 Euro on a 12 Euro bill I couldn't say but I've never had the impression that they were upset about it. Probably just thought I was a clueless American and left it at that.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 3, 2010 11:51 PM

Rey:

That's pretty much it. It never occurred to me.

I figured as much. There's a learning curve to everything, and everyone has to learn sometime. I know you'll be one of the good people in that regard, you're good people in others.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 3, 2010 11:55 PM

Rey Fox:

That's pretty much it. It never occurred to me. But I don't claim to be the most aware person in the world.

I will from now on be one of the good people.

Thank you. That made me very happy, and it will make scads of bartenders and waitstaff very happy too:) If my stern lecture had anything to do with it, feel free to pass it along. Too many people don't realize what a harsh hand they're dealing to service staff.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 3, 2010 11:57 PM

The rich people (including famous ones), were, in general, much nicer, and better tippers (proportionally).

I was never on the wait side of the restaurant. Always in the kitchen.

KW*K moment.

Bill Murray was buying turkey at Whole Foods next to me and the wife today.

Before I noticed it was him I almost told his spaced out kid to move his ass.

Still would have told him but in the moment I realized who was next to me, the kid moved.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 4, 2010 12:02 AM

It's like I said, I do tip at restaurants. Tipping bartenders was a mental leap I hadn't made.

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | September 4, 2010 12:05 AM

And the phone knows that the caller is a 'devil worshipper' how?

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 4, 2010 12:06 AM

Josh:

The rich people (including famous ones), were, in general, much nicer, and better tippers (proportionally). Sure, there were some who acted like prima donnas, and expected to have their asses kissed. Fine, I'll kiss your ass since you're paying handsomely. But for the most part, the rich people I waited on just wanted gracious (not obsequious) service, and quality food and atmosphere. They were more than willing to pay for it, including tipping the staff generously.

My experience too. When I was in my early teens, my grandmother used to do part-time waitstaff work for some local caterers. I was asked if I wanted to do some of that work too. The money was outrageous good for the time, so of course I said yes. (I was 14 at the time.)

They catered to the rich and famous in Orange County. The hours and work were absolutely fucking brutal, a short job was 16 hours. The one I remember most is doing a job for John Wayne. He came into the kitchen, pointed a finger at me and said "You, come here." He wanted me to open the door, announce people and take their coats, purses, etc. He gave me a rundown on how to answer the door, announce, take items and then showed me the room to place their things and gave me a key to the door.

He told me if one single item was missing at the end of the night, he'd see my ass in prison for the rest of my life. I did all that, then got my ass busy serving. After hours of serving, then running off to unlock the door to retrieve people's things as they wanted them, then helping to clear and heading to the kitchen to pack up and clean, Mr. Wayne came back to the kitchen and said "You, come here". I went, and he pulled out his wallet and handed me two hundred dollars and said "you did a good job tonight, thanks".

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 4, 2010 12:08 AM

In South Carolina

Yep. He has a house on Sullivan's island.

Spends a fair amount of time here.

Owns part of the local minor league baseball team.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 4, 2010 12:10 AM

After hours of serving, then running off to unlock the door to retrieve people's things as they wanted them, then helping to clear and heading to the kitchen to pack up and clean, Mr. Wayne came back to the kitchen and said "You, come here". I went, and he pulled out his wallet and handed me two hundred dollars and said "you did a good job tonight, thanks".

Awesome, awesome story! Nice to know I'm not crazy, too, observing that the rich folk are often the nicer customers!

Posted by: ambulocetacean | September 4, 2010 12:12 AM

Urgh. Blockquote fail.

Cicely: And the phone knows that the caller is a 'devil worshipper' how?

Me: Satan works in mysterious ways?

Posted by: Hekuni Cat, Champion of Oriana | September 4, 2010 12:15 AM

cicely:

Archaeologist Tired Of Unearthing Unspeakable Ancient Evils

Thank you. Some of the things the tired Dr. Whitson encountered might just show up in a future dungeon crawl. *evil dungeon master laugh*

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 4, 2010 12:15 AM

Josh:

Nice to know I'm not crazy, too, observing that the rich folk are often the nicer customers!

Oh, he was more than a bit of an asshole, to tell the truth, but he was fair and if you did a good job, you were rewarded for it. There were a fuckton of filthy rich people there, and I have to say most of them were very gracious people.

Posted by: ambulocetacean | September 4, 2010 12:22 AM

Jebus, who'd use a mobile phone in Kenya at the moment?

If the devil worshippers don't get you, the high-frequency brain haemorrhage phone calls will.

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | September 4, 2010 12:29 AM

The Primate Diaries in Exile (this article is hosted at The Intersection, but still....): The Science of Sexism: Primate Behavior and the Culture of Sexual Coercion

Some of the things the tired Dr. Whitson encountered might just show up in a future dungeon crawl. *evil dungeon master laugh*

Yup. Never send a Sage to do an Adventurer's job. :D :D :D

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | September 4, 2010 12:46 AM

I tip well, for the same reasons others mentioned.

The boyfriend does not. He's been a dishwasher and cook forever, and before that he's done delivery (shitty tips, shitty pay, and officially one of the most dangerous jobs in the US), and because of that he has a justified hatred for the sort of server who earns more than the BOH staff and constantly whines about how little money they have. I know that type, too, from when I was hostessing; servers who were raking in an extra $500-$700 more than I were constantly broke, and whined at me, the person who had to be just as smiley-fucking-happy, and everywhere at once, without getting a share of those tips.

This post brought to you by the less-than-a-server-demographic.

Posted by: Hekuni Cat, Champion of Oriana | September 4, 2010 12:48 AM

Jadehawk,

Hearing about the kitten and your situation makes me so sad and angry. *hug*

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 4, 2010 12:52 AM

Josh, yes, no one likes to struggle and no one likes the strugglers, even fellow strugglers.*

*No, not everyone is an Ahole, but the majority are, unfortunately.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 4, 2010 1:07 AM

Rev. BDC:

No tips. No tip outs. No nothing.

I've long been in the habit of tipping chefs. My husband jumped on the bandwagon when out one time, at a fine dining establishment, he wanted to know if he could have basil rubbed into his steak before cooking. Our waiter wandered off to ask, the chef said he'd be happy to oblige. The chef was handsomely tipped, our waiter got extra for being indulgent of my husband's request.

As for less than a server, I've often tipped those who bus tables, when they are visible; when they aren't, I've asked if tips are split. If a tip is split, I tip more; if it isn't tipped, I send a tip to the bus person. I've done a lot of the shit work when it comes to restaurants, I don't ignore anyone who is working their ass off.

Posted by: Ichthyic | September 4, 2010 1:28 AM

OK, the flamethrower I turned on Matzke is empty now.

time to take a break for refills, and drink a lament to minds that are supposed to be FOR rational thought, but post such inane drivel.

tips glass at Mooney, Nisbet, and now Matzke.

*sigh*

Posted by: SC OM | September 4, 2010 1:54 AM

This is how anal I am about tipping

At first I read that as "typing" and was naturally a bit confused.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 4, 2010 2:32 AM

The response from Laurel Kornfeld is delicious

She really is insane. She writes fan letters "to" Pluto. Srsly.

Won't someone get this woman some psychiatric help?

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | September 4, 2010 3:07 AM

What's worse, writing love notes to Pluto the planet, Pluto the dog, Pluto the sailor scout, or Pluto the Roman god?

Posted by: Aquaria | September 4, 2010 3:08 AM

It's just too taboo to mention that poor/opressed people might be contributing to their own oppression by treating each other like shit.

Well, to be fair, how many of them even know how to tip, or to do it at all? A shocking number of them will never go to any sit-down restaurant, just like their parents before them. Heck, I'd never even been to a real restaurant until I was nearly 10. We couldn't afford that before then.

What poor people know, if they're lucky, is fast food, and you don't tip there.

It doesn't bode well for tipping when they can finally go to a restaurant, unless someone more experienced is there to show the newbie the ropes.

Here's another thing to consider from the other side: A lot of the intricacies of dining manners the higher up the social ladder you go is to weed out pretenders and golddiggers for each rung of the ladder.

You don't need four different goblets at a table setting, or 15 pieces of flatware. Unless how someone demonstrates proficiency with them can tell you something regarding the class of that person.

You know which goblet will hold white or red wine, water, and an apertif if you are accustomed to using them. You know the difference between an olive fork and a pickle fork if you are accustomed to using them. And people who are accustomed to using them are that way because they can afford to buy something so redundant and ludicrous as a pickle fork.

If you aren't--well, my dear, what more needs be said? You are not one of us.

Same thing with going to a restaurant. A hundred things are going on there meant to exclude, meant to intimidate, meant to remind you of your place.

It's not as bad or as ubiquitous as it was even 30 years ago. But it's there.

The good news is that it can be overcome.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 4, 2010 3:25 AM

Aquaria:

You don't need four different goblets at a table setting, or 15 pieces of flatware. Unless how someone demonstrates proficiency with them can tell you something regarding the class of that person.

Eh, I know all that stuff, grew up knowing it. Even so, I've spent more than my share of time stone broke. Most people, even those who are poor and start out that way know you tip at restaurants. My husband grew up poor, he knew that, even though he didn't see the inside of a restaurant until he was about same age as you on your first time.

It's not esoteric knowledge and the people Josh and I were talking about are those who know you should tip in restaurant. They just don't give a shit. It's easy enough to figure out newbies to the whole "omgz, we're at a fancy restaurant!" people, and I had people like that. They did tip.

Posted by: Aquaria | September 4, 2010 3:47 AM

I guess I wasn't clear enough that I know it's not esoteric knowledge, that it can be overcome. I'm just saying that a lot of people can't overcome it without help.

Not every server is helpful in this regard, either. I had one literally stop taking my order to pour water and chat with an obviously wealthy woman. And a boyfriend and I were there trying to help a friend learn the ropes!

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | September 4, 2010 5:30 AM

OT
Dom Joly (on radio) on gender segregated ski lifts in Iran:
The operator said "Don't worry. At the top eveybody mixes. Mullahs don't Snowboard"

(psudes corner)
Truth in three(3) words.
(/psudes corner)

Posted by: maureen.brian#b5c92 | September 4, 2010 5:51 AM

The Guardian offers you pictures from the NZ earhquake.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | September 4, 2010 5:53 AM

What's worse, writing love notes to Pluto the planet, Pluto the dog, Pluto the sailor scout, or Pluto the Roman god?

She already has two girlfriends. It's bad manners to impose on a threesome.

As for tipping, I suspect I didn't do it (enough) during my short visit to the States. Hadn't realised people didn't get paid to work. Also guilty of adding the tip to the bill later on.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 4, 2010 6:03 AM

1. Waiters and bartenders in the US are exempt from being paid the minimum wage. Read that again until it sinks in. Remember that the minimum wage is a paltry $7.25 per hour.

2. Unless the state you work in (only a handful) requires businesses to pay servers the minimum wage, you'll find many of them earn less than three dollar per hour. 11 years ago, I was earning $2.18 per hour from my employer when the minimum wage was more than $5 per hour.

Ugh. That's horribly exploitative. :-(

To put this into perspective, I currently earn £7 an hour (about US$10 an hour, at current exchange rates) for sticking barcodes on books. It's pretty disturbing to think that waiters could be paid less than a quarter of that.

Since July 2008, the minimum wage in the UK does apply to restaurant staff (before this, it was legal for restaurants to expect staff to top up their wages with tips to reach the legal minimum). It's still customary to leave a tip, though, and I always do.

(As some people here will remember, I used to be opposed to minimum wage laws. I now think I may have been wrong about that.)

Posted by: Dania | September 4, 2010 6:38 AM

I always tip too (unless I'm treated so unusually bad to the point of getting cranky, but that rarely happens) and, AFAIK, waiters here are never paid less than the minimum wage. I didn't know this wasn't the case in the USA. It does sound terribly exploitative. :(

Posted by: Dania | September 4, 2010 6:53 AM

I know this probably sounds naive to the point of utter delusion

It does. I, too, wish people in general wouldn't be assholes but...

Meh, this is getting depressing. I'm going for a walk in the woods before it gets too hot to go outside. Gotta get away from civilization for a bit.

Posted by: McCthulhu is taking ∞ to eat all the pi | September 4, 2010 7:47 AM

I could combine #487 and #488 into one response: WORLD SHAKING!!!

(Not Pluto, but one of the 'girlfriends' and don't ask me why I know that)

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 4, 2010 8:29 AM

KG:

There's a film I'd like to see, called "Last Night", in which the world is about to end (for reasons unexplained I believe), which just follows what various characters do with themselves on the eponymous last night. No heroic last-minute salvation.

I've been thinking about what I said yesterday and I've realized that there is a distinct lack of tragedy in modern cinema. I wasn't trying to promote the "good guy always wins" bollocks, even though it kind of came out that way.

Oh sure, movies are sad, but that's not the same as tragic.

Even movies that could easily be tragic rarely are. Any disaster film, most Z films, horror films, etc etc end with that one person (or group) surviving and providing a glimmer of hope for the survival of humanity. It's knee-jerk, gotta end on a high note laziness on the writer's part.

I understand why, to an extent. The art has suffered in the pursuit of the highest box office returns. We are more willing to see something that leaves us feeling good in the end-- there's no room in our society for despair anymore. And, in my opinion, that's a damned shame.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 4, 2010 8:59 AM

I guess I just wish people could be a little nicer to each other without the government forcing them to be.

Most people aren't that un-nice. They're just that unempathetic.

Last night before work part II this girl drank some hot coffee. So hot it scalded, like, whatever it is that makes speech possible down in there.

Sucks. I should have stuck with the vodka.

Frankly, Walton dear, I just wish that you could work your ass off until you die and at least have something to show for it :/

Posted by: JeffreyD | September 4, 2010 9:36 AM

Josh -

I recommend you top it off SpokesGay style with some very high thread-count cotton sheets with a silky weave. It's just heaven.

Ah, but can it be topped off with a Spokesgay?

Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom | September 4, 2010 9:41 AM

But then, I also have really deep-rooted anti-statist instincts. I can understand the socialist point of view, but I don't think I could ever be a socialist. It just isn't in me to endorse nationalisation of industry, for instance, or upper limits on CEO pay, or taxing the rich into oblivion. Not because I like greed and inequality - I really, really don't - but because I just don't want governments to have that much power over people's economic activities.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 4, 2010 9:54 AM

Walton, serious question - will you expand upon your dislike of government? You use the word as something of a vague monolith, but there are many types of governments. A dictatorship is a government, and so is one that elects leaders every year. You talk about them all as if they were all the same and all equally bad. What kind of government do you have in mind when you talk about them, and what about them makes you so distrustful? They are made up of people, after all.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 4, 2010 9:59 AM

Part-Time Insomniac:
You know, I wasn't even thinking of Gladiator and I didn't see Inkheart.

I'm not saying that there isn't tragedy out there, just that it tends to get ignored, especially when it would be a proper ending to a film. I can easily think of several tragic movies (Reservoir Dogs, Pan's Labyrinth, Thelma and Louise, etc*).

It's easy to get confused and say that a sad ending is a tragic one when it's not. Mr ODS and I are currently debating whether or not 12 Monkeys was a tragedy-- I say it isn't. A lot depends on interpretation, I guess.

*I was going to say Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, but then I realized that was a play first and that's not what I'm talking about here.

Posted by: EvolutionSkeptic | September 4, 2010 10:00 AM

Hey, so some of you may remember me (one can hope). I found this thread that some people told me last time to find when I wanted to ask a question. Since I have one, I thought I'd check in. Hope everyone is doing well.

All right. I read "Why Evolution is True" and "The Greatest Show on Earth," as recommended by several of you. After that, I also started reading some of the stuff on Dawkins' site, because I really liked his calm approach to the subject.

After reading there and a good bit here, I'm actually getting a little afraid, and this is where my question comes in ... I can recognize the validity of evolution and that it's true. This began to make an impact on my belief in God, but I still felt like he could have set the whole thing in motion.

But the more I read there and here, the more I'm questioning that, the more I worry that my faith may be in danger. Since you guys were so helpful the first time, I thought maybe I could come to you to ask a couple of questions again ...

- I truly don't mean this to be insulting, so please don't take it that way, but what is your motivation to live a moral, upstanding life without the guidance of the rules of God and the Bible? I know you guys do this, but I'm not sure I understand how it works without concrete guidance.

- For those of you who were once Christians (I'm guessing there are some), how did you reconcile your atheism/agnosticism with your relationship with your Christian family/friends? How do you tell them? Do you still go to church for the fellowship but just don't pray/participate? Did you lose friends/family in your process of change?

I hope I'm not interrupting a conversation here, but any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for reading, if you actually got this far.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 4, 2010 10:19 AM

- I truly don't mean this to be insulting, so please don't take it that way, but what is your motivation to live a moral, upstanding life without the guidance of the rules of God and the Bible? I know you guys do this, but I'm not sure I understand how it works without concrete guidance.

- For those of you who were once Christians (I'm guessing there are some), how did you reconcile your atheism/agnosticism with your relationship with your Christian family/friends? How do you tell them? Do you still go to church for the fellowship but just don't pray/participate? Did you lose friends/family in your process of change?

I'll bite 'cos I'm bored.

1) I would ask why you need god to be a "moral person". The god of the Judeo-Christian bible isn't upstanding and moral at all and neither are his rules. Do you pick and choose which rules you follow? Stoned any adulterers lately? No? Well then, my friend, you're a half-assed Christian.

The idea of getting something (eternal paradise) for being good is incredibly immature. Really, it's no different from being good so you get presents from Santa on Xmas.

My morality is based on respect for people-- recognizing that we have a shared humanity and no one should suffer by my hand. Not because I'm going to get anything out of the deal, but because I know suffering and it sucks.

2) I wasn't raised in a faith (thanks Mom and Dad!), but my husband's family are (moderately) religious. They know I'm an atheist and at the best of times, they choose to ignore it. At the worst of times, they think I'm a bad influence on Mr ODS and they want us to "pick a church already"* before we start having kids. I try to not let it bother me, but we're headed for a blow-out any day now. That's not going to be pretty.

*Words from my lovely sister-in-law.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 4, 2010 10:22 AM

I truly don't mean this to be insulting, so please don't take it that way, but what is your motivation to live a moral, upstanding life without the guidance of the rules of God and the Bible? I know you guys do this, but I'm not sure I understand how it works without concrete guidance.

Empathy, and strategic reasoning.

I didn't derive my sense of morals from God or the Bible because they weren't important to me at any point, unlike many here. I also found a lot of the morals attributed to God and the Bible to be negative and socially destructive.

So I started out from a framework of challenging and scrutinizing even deeply cherished beliefs (including my own).

But it is easy enough to see why killing some one is wrong and hurts society, or why damaging a relationship is bad. Social awareness, think of the self as just an object in a system of like objects and suddenly a lot of things are revealed as simple self involvement. If you keep shifting perspectives then you start to see the things that are important from every vantage point.

People shouldn't do bad things to people. What are bad things, what do I do, etc.

Personally I think that one's morals and ethics have to be ingrained in the self, and that one has to be able to maintain them.

For instance, I would be less likely to refrain from doing an immoral act because some one else disapproves than by my own sense of approval and disapproval.

Where did I get that sense?

For me, from observation. I spent childhood watching, thinking, learning. I kept adding to that body of observation, trying to expand it to see more about people. I still work on expanding that.

To me, and this is where I end up different than some, if one has an ethical conviction it does not matter whether a) anyone else does, b) that there is any hope of achieving the desired effect, or c) whether there is reward or punishment for following the rule.

That being said, I'm an unusual thinker, and for that reason Religion never worked on me the right way anyway.

As for the second one, I didn't need to tell my family. The one's who care have never liked me much and the others have too many problems for there to be any use to either of us by my bringing it up.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | September 4, 2010 10:32 AM

for me, cats are people; for them, cats are things.

You're both wrong.

why not a vestigial sense that babies should be able to climb trees?

natural selection

the joys of parenthood

Oh, these are (or, I suppose, can be) very real. My daughter is by far--by far!--the best part of my life. Those of you who think it's cool to hate kids? I don't get it, at all* **.

Vindobona actually belonged to the Roman province of Pannonia

ah, now I see, right on the northern edge there. Map-reading fail on my part.

here's something just to turn everyone's stomach

At least the xians are meeting (marginally) closer to the actual site than the muslims.

I can't say that I would've expected college-aged kids to have found us cool. But what do they know?

Classes started last week and I can authoritatively report that they don't know shit.

At the giant magical Pharyngufest, anyone who's not bonking Walton can show me how to order drinks.

Laff o the day so far.
I'll be drinking, tyvm.

High-school here is just a fucking collection of "don't"s

Not sure what that's supposed to mean (nor how it is that you think you know this).

if I just leave a dollar on the bar on a crowded night, are they even going to find it?

You better believe they are, and what's more, if they don't find it they're going to notice that empty spot on the bar where you were served a few minutes ago. Yes, even when it's three deep and there are two bartenders running their asses off***. Do you find you have trouble getting the bartender's attention for your third or fourth drink?

I bartended

Pedants' korner: I hate hate hate the back-formation of compound verbs from compound nouns. A bartender tends bar, she does not 'bartend.' A fundraiser raises funds, he does not 'fundraise.'
et cetera

"XCIX" should have been simply "IC"

Amusing but, alas, incorrect.

Walton, serious question - will you expand upon your dislike of government?

GAH!!! What the hell is wrong with you? Other people have to read this Thread!

Mullahs don't Snowboard

Charlie don't surf.

*This is not a request for people to share exactly why they hate kids. I don't care. But I'm sure some of you'll share anyway *sigh*

**But I'll admit that actually parenting has changed my attitudes about some things. For example, I do not find the baby-eating meme around here amusing, even a little bit. I'm not fainting and clutching or anything; just don't find it funny. *shrug*

***Although I have never tended a bar professionally, I have spent an inordinate amount of time observing and chatting with bartenders.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | September 4, 2010 10:38 AM

I truly don't mean this to be insulting, so please don't take it that way, but what is your motivation to live a moral, upstanding life without the guidance of the rules of God and the Bible? I know you guys do this, but I'm not sure I understand how it works without concrete guidance.

Modern day atheists tend to start with application of the golden rule, which is also seen with game theory. Cooperation wins consistently over cheating. We don't want to be killed, robbed, or cheated, therefore secular laws to prevent and/or punish those crimes are appropriate. We also recognize that certain laws are necessary for the public good. Imagine driving a car without laned roads. Traffic laws help keep down the carnage. We recognize the need to help the poor through government programs. We recognize the need for good medical care. Sound familiar?

Eventually there is the conflict between personal freedom and societal order. Here we look at the evidence for both freedom and order. For example, which is better, decriminalization of drugs and readily available rehab (medical approach), or draconian laws against drug use (criminal approach)? Look at the history of prohibition. What lessons can be learned? Which is why atheists tend toward the medical approach. Do this for every problem.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 4, 2010 10:41 AM

EvolutionSkeptic, I remember you too. I won't be able to respond in depth until much later today, but I've been through the same set of problems, so you're definitely not alone. In brief, one thing you might want to do is to read "Parenting Beyond Belief" and its associated website stuff. It's geared towards how to raise kids with morals and ethics without religion, which is nice for oneself as well. Also, if you haven't yet, check out Dan Barker's autobiography "Losing faith in faith". He used to be a pastor.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 4, 2010 10:42 AM

*This is not a request for people to share exactly why they hate kids. I don't care. But I'm sure some of you'll share anyway *sigh*

I don't hate them. I'm not interested in them enough to be that invested.

Posted by: Becca the Over Socialized | September 4, 2010 10:44 AM

I work at a bookstore. We periodically do book drives, where patrons will buy an inexpensive children's book that is later distributed to needy kids in the area.

The people buying 'spiritual' books almost never donate. Not even the cheapo $0.98 books. They look at you like you're crazy for asking them - I've even had people swear at me, asking "why the fuck would I want to do that?" when I as if they'd like to donate - and they're the ones buying the expensive bibles and bible covers.

The people who do donate? either people buying lots and lots of books, people who buy romances, and kids with gift cards, who get this big grin on their faces to be doing something nice for other kids.

Posted by: Dania | September 4, 2010 10:47 AM

but what is your motivation to live a moral, upstanding life without the guidance of the rules of God and the Bible?

You've already got good responses (and you'll get many more) to this question and I have nothing to add, except maybe mentioning the Euthyphro dilemma. You should read and think about it if you haven't already.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 4, 2010 10:52 AM

Our washing machine blew up this afternoon. :-( No permanent damage, but things are a little chaotic right now.

Posted by: EvolutionSkeptic | September 4, 2010 10:58 AM

Thanks for all the quick responses, guys. And to Dr. Myers, for posting this on the main page. Means a lot to me that you'd think it was worth that. I'll be sure to check back throughout the day.

Rorschach-
Heh. I had never heard of the term "sockpuppet" until I started reading here occasionally, on the advice of a friend. I think it's someone making up multiple aliases to post, but I'm not quite sure what the objective is. Regardless, no worries. I think a few here would be willing to tell you I'm really not trying to stir up any trouble. I'm honestly curious and seeking answers. People here have been extremely helpful and patient (even when some of them have been a bit curt, which I get).

Dania-
Euthyphro dilemma ... gotcha. Looking it up now. Seems like I've heard that before, but I don't think I've ever considered it thoroughly. Thanks.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 4, 2010 11:03 AM

Rorschach - I do remember him(her) being here before, so fairly certain it's legit.

I should add that I'm not suggesting that all governments are equally destructive. That would be manifestly wrong. Rather, I'm arguing that the main thing that holds back authoritarian government is a strong constitution and a strong independent judiciary. It doesn't always do a great job, but it has a better track record than anything else that's been tried so far.

So then a strong judiciary is necessary. That doesn't equal no government is better than government.

In short: I don't have any inherent faith in the voters, or in the governments they elect.

Then why do you have inherent faith in the people who run corporations? They are the same group of people, but now with a profit motive.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 4, 2010 11:11 AM

So then a strong judiciary is necessary. That doesn't equal no government is better than government.

True, of course. And I certainly don't advocate the destruction of governments. If governments were destroyed, the power vacuum would simply be filled by warlords, cartels and gangs who could do whatever the hell they liked, which would be worse (on any possible view) than the current situation. That's why I consider "anarchocapitalists" to be batshit insane.

Then why do you have inherent faith in the people who run corporations? They are the same group of people, but now with a profit motive.

I don't. I don't trust corporations as far as I can throw them. And there are few things worse than a monopoly or quasi-monopoly corporation that squeezes everyone else out of the market so it can exploit workers and consumers to its heart's content. (Like Tesco in the UK, which is steadily taking over the entire food retail industry, paving over half the country with megastores and giant car parks, exploiting their suppliers and staff, and driving down quality. Assholes.)

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 4, 2010 11:14 AM

Carlie:

Then why do you have inherent faith in the people who run corporations? They are the same group of people, but now with a profit motive.

Because they're obviously better people than us lowly mortals 'cos they have money! That's gotta count for something, right? [/snark]

Seriously, though, I'm wish I could vote to OM you again.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 4, 2010 11:24 AM

Really, Carlie, I'll be honest: I'm 50 percent of the way to being a socialist, even though I rarely admit it to myself. And I really don't object to the idea of having somewhat higher taxes on the rich, and a more redistributive welfare system.

But the trouble is that I really dislike the nanny state. The more the government takes over responsibility for individuals' wellbeing, the more it has a pretext for intruding into their lives. Look at our horribly paternalistic attitude to smoking, for example: in the UK we have extortionately high cigarette taxes, a total ban on smoking indoors except in one's own home, and a whole range of other policies meant to discourage people from smoking. Most of the supporters of these policies justify them with "well, smokers' health problems cost the NHS and welfare services a lot of money." That's the kind of attitude that scares me: the idea that the government ought to protect people from making "bad" choices, in case their choices end up costing other people money. Another example of this kind of paternalism is the government liquor-control corporations that exist in some jurisdictions, like Systembolaget in Sweden or the Ontario Liquor Control Board.

Ditto for drugs: I've heard people justify the prohibition of drugs by saying "well, drug abuse causes social problems which cost the taxpayer money". (Which is a silly argument, since there would probably be substantially fewer health and social problems from drug use if drugs were legalised. But even if the factual assumptions were true, I still think the principle behind the argument would be wrong.)

So in a lot of ways I'm sympathetic to the left. But I also want to live in a society where people can, within reason, make whatever choices they want about their own bodies and their own lives.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 4, 2010 11:34 AM

Ok, then the next question is what's to stop them, if not governmental regulations? The free market encourages exploitation of workers. Workers almost never have enough power to force their own bosses to treat them well. When one company is the only game in town, there is no competition who treats their workers better to take your business to.

That's all true. I don't disagree with any of that.

Posted by: MrFire | September 4, 2010 11:37 AM

Carlie @509:

Great minds and all. :)

I'm flattered, but nah - thanks to corporate globalization, I just stole the blueprints of your great mind, and made a cheap knock-off in China.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 4, 2010 11:45 AM

Really, Carlie, I'll be honest: I'm 50 percent of the way to being a socialist, even though I rarely admit it to myself.

Damn... did I really write that?

Go figure. :-/

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | September 4, 2010 11:56 AM

Since it will be otherwise buried archived forever and ever in the endless tThread

fifh

Posted by: Rorschach | September 4, 2010 12:03 PM

The Huffington Post is pleased with the evolution of the Creation Museum :

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/03/creation-museum-is-evolvi_n_705311.html

(yeah, I've put up a blog post about it, never mind lol...)

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | September 4, 2010 12:09 PM

Not sure why I find skeleton jokes to be so humerus.

Find 'em more a tibulation myself.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | September 4, 2010 12:19 PM

Not sure why I find skeleton jokes to be so humerus.

Posted by: Jonathan V | September 4, 2010 12:37 PM

To evolutionskeptic

- I truly don't mean this to be insulting, so please don't take it that way, but what is your motivation to live a moral, upstanding life without the guidance of the rules of God and the Bible? I know you guys do this, but I'm not sure I understand how it works without concrete guidance.

None taken, seeing as how christian fundamentalists teach that everyone that doesn't learn from the bible is bound to be immoral. Once I started to doubt the bible, an objective reading of it changed my view of the bible's morality immensely. The first half portrays god as one of the most brutal characters to have ever been portrayed in a book. He demands genocide regularly, the brutal murder of women and children, and uses grotesque punishment on his own people for even the most minor perceived slight towards him.

The morality in the second half is great humanism only for the gospels and then takes a half step back towards condemning arbitrary groups of people as being unfit (such as homosexuals).

The bible has been used to both justify and condemn the same atrocities, be it slavery, mass murder, persecution of gays and other religions. Both those that commit these things and those that argue against them point to the same book as being their guidance. How can such radically different moralities be extrapolated from the same source? Because the source is not the book, it's society, it's individual empathy. Christians may say that those that commit such atrocities aren't "true" christians, but it's more than coincedence that "true christianity" always seems to align more or less with the views of those that are winning the culture wars of the day. Because society decides what is right and wrong, and then religion turns to their holy book to justify it.

Does that mean that on the individual level, one should simply obey the majority? No. The majority is not absolute, and culture wars are always started by a minority view that finds fault with the majority. The best guide to what you would call a moral life is to life by the rule that numerous humanist philsophers have come up with in the past. Be empathetic. Feel other people's pain and joy, and act as if it were your own.

- For those of you who were once Christians (I'm guessing there are some), how did you reconcile your atheism/agnosticism with your relationship with your Christian family/friends? How do you tell them? Do you still go to church for the fellowship but just don't pray/participate? Did you lose friends/family in your process of change?

I lost almost everything socially. I grew up a Jehovah's Witness, who actively practice shunning individuals that disagree with their biblical views. My family, all of my friends from the first twenty or so years of my life would ignore me if they saw me on the street, or in a store. To them I do not exist. One must ask what his priorities are in life. Mine is truth, and I cannot help that. I tried to just lie and pretend I believed it, still go to meetings, act like I was praying. But I couldn't stand the lies and the ignorance, and when I came out they treated me like a vicious criminal, and then expelled me from their ranks to act as if I don't exist anymore.

I don't regret my decision to come out in the least, because truth is my priority. I know those that prioritize their family and friends, social groups, ties and traditions more than truth and choose to live life in a state of perpetual cognitive dissonance, and I cannot fault them for that because some cannot bear to make the sacrifice.

I lead my own life now and I couldn't be happier about it, but what you choose to do has to be your choice, and depending on how fundamentalist your religious group is you may suffer terrible consequences for coming out, or merely some awkward family dinners.

Best of luck to you, and I'm glad you had at least the mental and psychological strength to admit to yourself that your deeply entrenched beliefs may not be correct. It may be hard at times, so if ever you need to talk or just vent feel free to e-mail me the_vagabond7@yahoo.com

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | September 4, 2010 1:04 PM

Sili: Actually, that's how NASA pronounces it.

According to the Source of All Knowledge:

There is minor debate over the preferred pronunciation of the name. The practice of following the classical pronunciation established for the mythological ferryman Charon is used by major English-language dictionaries such as the Merriam-Webster and Oxford English Dictionary. These indicate only one pronunciation of "Charon" when referring specifically to Pluto's moon: with an initial "k" sound. Speakers of languages other than English, and many English-speaking astronomers as well, follow this pronunciation.

However, Christy himself pronounced the ch in the moon's name as sh (IPA [ʃ]), after his wife Charlene. Because of this, as an acknowledgement of Christy and sometimes as an in-joke or shibboleth, the initial sh pronunciation is common among astronomers when speaking English, and this is the prescribed pronunciation at NASA and of the New Horizons Pluto mission team.

Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier | September 4, 2010 1:17 PM

But the trouble is that I really dislike the nanny state.

I'm not a huge fan of it either, but it's preferable over the drunken, abusive stepfather of corporations.

Posted by: llewelly | September 4, 2010 1:19 PM

Sili, The Unknown Virgin | September 4, 2010 12:58 PM:

Has anyone considered Charon's perspective?

Obviously not. Or they wouldn't keep calling him Sharon.
(I'm looking at you AstronomyCast.)

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 4, 2010 1:25 PM

I don't think it's the Nanny State so much as people's overwhelming desire to control other people's decisions when it comes to personal matters, and once again... lack of empathy.

You're up against a rock and a hard wall with that one. No matter what you're dealing with people.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | September 4, 2010 1:58 PM

ES does not seem to be a sockpuppet, so all good.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 4, 2010 2:27 PM

@Aaron Baker,
Signed. I have trouble understanding why this was even allowed to go to trial.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 4, 2010 2:40 PM

Horrible news of the day: The French government has begun implementing its policy of deporting the Roma people from France.

Thankfully some people are protesting the deportation. But it's absolutely horrific that an entire (largely poor and powerless) ethnic group can be rounded up and expelled, simply to pander to racism and bigotry.

(Reportedly, some 65 percent of French voters support the deportation. Now you see why I don't have very much faith in democracy?)

Posted by: Kristjan Wager | September 4, 2010 2:49 PM

Walton, unfortunately France is not unique in this. Denmark has deported some as well - the legality is unclear though, so perhaps it will be stopped.

Posted by: MrFire | September 4, 2010 3:33 PM

But the trouble is that I really dislike the nanny state.

I'm not a huge fan of it either, but it's preferable over the drunken, abusive stepfather of corporations.

Holy shit Feynmaniac, you win the internets forever, in all possible universes.

Posted by: Jonathan V | September 4, 2010 3:50 PM

Thank you for your sympathy and support Ol' Greg and Walton. Yes, the power of indoctrination is immense. When I was going to be ex-communicated I still had this lingering notion that "no, my family and friends are on the up and up, they are decent people." I even wrote to my brother while it was happening that the only people I would miss are the people I wouldn't have to, naively assuming that there would be people (like my family) that would just ignore that whole silly shunning thing, and we'd still be friends and family.

But no. Indoctrination is immensely powerful. It's how political groups and religious organizations can convince ordinary people to do extraordinarily dehumanizing things to other human beings. And let me tell you, standing next to people in a shopping line that know you, that laughed with you, who's house you've been in and food you've shared, avoid eye contact with you, refuse to look at you or even acknowledge that you are smiling and waving to them, is very dehumanizing.

I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a test of my own compassion. My goal is to always hold myself to a higher moral standard than they ever would. And I like to think that at some point in the future a family member or old friend would come to me for some kind of help, and I would oblige without grudge or contempt, but rather with empathy. But I question whether or not I would be able to do that, or simply tell them that they lost their chance. I really hope it's the former.

Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom | September 4, 2010 3:56 PM

Libertarians are evil.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3308/einsteinrand.jpg

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 4, 2010 4:02 PM

The person making the decision not to wear the helmet should be responsible for the extra cost that comes with making such a decision.

Many of those who talk most about personal freedom also avoid personal responsibility.

Ah, but one has to be careful about that. That person should pay for their own care, but what about the person who is born with a bad health condition? What about the ones inbetween? What if they wore a helmet but got hit by a drunk driver? Trying to assess the level of responsibility that you feel someone else should have leads down some pretty ugly roads. I'd rather err on the side of generosity and say that everyone should be cared and provided for; if everyone is in the same system, the benefits to the needy outweigh the costs of giving a few reckless people a free ride.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 4, 2010 4:13 PM

My goal is to always hold myself to a higher moral standard than they ever would. And I like to think that at some point in the future a family member or old friend would come to me for some kind of help, and I would oblige without grudge or contempt, but rather with empathy. But I question whether or not I would be able to do that, or simply tell them that they lost their chance. I really hope it's the former.

I just marvel that it doesn't continue to challenge your very ability to trust!

You're clearly a forgiving person.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | September 4, 2010 4:20 PM

Carlie, I'm a supporter of expanding Medicare to cover the whole populace, with present contribution by employers and employees for their existing health insurance being the initial source of the increase in funding. Which, if enacted, would make my helmetless motorcycle driver example moot.

Another way of saying what I meant, would be a parachute jumper having sufficient insurance that if (FSM forbid), the chute doesn't open, they can be properly buried/cremated without hurting their relatives accounts. Simply, you make a choice to something dangerous, nobody else has to pay for your choice. You do, up front with proper insurance.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 4, 2010 4:37 PM

No. 7, Beethoven, thanks.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 4, 2010 5:16 PM

Rutee @#576: I rather suspect that that was a parody.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 4, 2010 5:23 PM

It's either a Triffid or an even more bizarre creature called a Welsh. And yes, one does consider you edible, but the other is mostly a mystery, albeit apparently sheep are involved.

Caution. I have quite a lot of Welsh ancestry. (And I don't even like leeks. Go figure.) :-D

However, contrary to stereotypes, your sheep are safe from me. And probably from most Pharyngulites except Smoggy, who hasn't been around much lately. (Floyd Rubber must be keeping him busy.)

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 4, 2010 5:35 PM

If anyone's interested in signing a petition for Gregory Koger, they can do so here: http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/1170/action/gregory-koger

The site has other useful links.

To address something brought up before: I fully agree that Maoism is an obnoxious ideology. So what? Greg's a decent, friendly young man, who's worked exceptionally hard to put his life back in order (after experiences that most of us, luckily, need only imagine). At least with his Maoism, he's trying to articulate answers to some horrific social problems--so he gets props from me on that score. AND HE DOES NOT, I BELIEVE, DESERVE TO GO TO JAIL.

FWIW, I agree with you that he's been horrifically screwed over by the criminal justice system (like, sadly, thousands of other people). He should be freed, the cops who assaulted him should be fired, and he should be able to sue the police department for a fuckton of damages. Unfortunately, this kind of bullshit happens right under our noses every day: and because the system is weighted massively in favour of police and prosecutors, they usually get away with it.

I hasten to add that this isn't an expression of personal sympathy with Koger. I don't know him, but his belief in Maoist bullshit destroys any possible credibility he could have in my eyes. If he really believes in Maoism, he's a deluded idiot, on a par with homeopaths and Scientologists.

But I still think we should stand up for his freedom - in the same way, and for the same reasons, that we should accept Fred Phelps' right to protest, or radical Islamists' right to march through Wootton Bassett, or Tom Cruise's right to promote Scientology. Everyone, including assholes and crazy people, is entitled to the same fundamental civil liberties. We can, and should, point out loudly that they're wrong; but they should not be silenced by coercion.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 4, 2010 6:01 PM

Nerd, for what it's worth, I get what you're saying. We have four motorcycles. Sometimes, we cruise without helmets; we are insured and extremely careful. Still, you never know what might happen. Most of the time, we are wearing helmets.

There is a tendency in 'mericans to want to behave like a complete moron and expect someone else to pick up the tab when things go wrong. Watch one episode of The Smoking Gun's World's Dumbest and you get a good idea of the rampant stupidity going around. The Darwin Awards attest to that too.

The notion of personal responsibility has been lost to a certain degree. It's been much more fashionable in recent decades to point fingers and place blame elsewhere. "The movie made me do it." "It was violent video games!" "I overdosed on twinkies, yer honor!" and so forth.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 4, 2010 6:26 PM

Totally off topic:

I bought beer for the first time in years and, holy sheeee-it, I've just learned that I have expensive tastes.

$30 for two six packs?!

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 4, 2010 6:30 PM

I suppose it was inevitable...an asshat showed up on EvolutionSkeptic's thread and appears to have unleashed the stupid without reading a single thing:

itsgood2bchildfree writes:

This is always a question involving a double standard: teabaggers feel free to protest as much as they want when the president is black and Democrat. Where were they when the president was white and Republican, who was leading the United States into disaster in Iraq, Afghanistan, New Orleans, and the housing bubble?

"EvolutionSkeptic" will NEVER accept rational answers to his questions, no matter how well reasoned and backed up with facts the answers are. He is pre-emptively prejudiced against atheists. I can tell him "it's good to be good, because it's good for everybody" until I'm blue in the face, and it won't change his mind, because he has unconditionally embraced the totalitarian nature of his religion, the "obey or suffer in hell" edict from his imaginary god. Atheists are morally flawed as people because they don't worship my god.

"EvolutionSkeptic" can't accept a reasonable answer because it upsets his hard-won faith, much like party members in 1984 must convince themselves that 2+2=5 because Big Brother says so, under pain of re-education and eventually death (along the way losing your self-identity, so you can't self-identify as a martyr.)

The double standard is that "EvolutionSkeptic" chooses not to take the hot poker of skepticism to his own beliefs that he freely does to atheists'. He has the backing of the multi-billion dollar union of religion and politics in the United States (just research how the LDS church fought to deny gays and lesbians the right to marry in California), so he can feel comfortable that he is in the majority. He feels we are obligated to nursemaid him through the process, just so in the end he'll tell us all our efforts were in vain because of his "faith", thereby feeling that he has won some sort of victory.

I won't get into specifics into why I'm an atheist. No matter how many arguments I make, "EvolutionSkeptic" is not prepared to change his mind if the evidence allows, and that's why I won't argue.

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | September 4, 2010 6:31 PM

But what I was really talking about is the necessity of coercion. No society seems to have achieved a high level of socio-economic equality without using taxes, minimum wage laws, economic regulation and other legislative means: backed, ultimately, by the threat of prison for those who disobey.

But maybe we're simply a bad social democracy. We certainly don't do so well when it comes to equality or social solidarity, at any rate. :-/

Posted by: Markita Lynda: Healthcare is a damn right | September 4, 2010 6:37 PM

Caine, OM quick not for your housemates: punishment doesn't work to train cats. Even mild negative reinforcement doesn't work well. Treats work. Keeping it happy by giving it places to hide, things to play with, things to explore, help. Keeping its litter box clean, giving it a place where it's allowed to scratch, and teasing it into trying it... what is their problem??? Are they failing to plunk it into the litter box after meals? Expecting it not to climb things? What?

See Temple Grandin's "Animals Make Us Human" (2009) for a detailed discussion of what cats need. An older book that might be in Google search or whatever is "Is my cat crazy?" also about cat behavior and needs.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 4, 2010 6:41 PM

Holy crap, not Miller Lite! *gag!*

I bought Wachusett Blueberry and Dogfish Head Indian Brown Ale. I so rarely buy beer that I had no idea how much I should expect to pay-- $15/pack seemed a little steep to me, but apparently it's not unreasonable.

(I also bought a big bottle of La Fin Du Monde, but that's an early birthday present to myself.)

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | September 4, 2010 6:48 PM

SMBC

Chastity.
__

We are more willing to see something that leaves us feeling good in the end-- there's no room in our society for despair anymore. And, in my opinion, that's a damned shame.

That would be because, for many/most people, there's plenty of despair to be found in the Real World; if you want a helping, the News can fix you right up. The movies are their "escape", for however short a time. If the "escape" comes packaged with "good art", that's a bonus, and frankly not as important as "engaging".

IMO there never was or is a goal really that can be attained, it's all just strategy.

IMO, part of the problem is that, the world not being static, "a goal" keeps changing. Inevitably, if you hit one "goal", it turns out that the fix no longer adequately covers the situation; forward, new "goal", ad infinitum. I think this is probably just the nature of the beast, and may not ever be fixable.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | September 4, 2010 6:57 PM

ODS, MoD, I looked on-line for pricing, and finally saw Dogfish Head Indian Brown Ale for $10/6 pk in NC. Given the price of other beers, $15 isn't outside of the question in a state with higher taxes on booze.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 4, 2010 7:07 PM

cicely:

That would be because, for many/most people, there's plenty of despair to be found in the Real World; if you want a helping, the News can fix you right up.

Back when Shakespeare was writing his tragedies, were people any better off? Were they happier on the whole? Was life any easier? And why does it seem that tragedies are more likely to exist in play-form and not movie-form?

Denying these types of feelings isn't a healthy thing IMHO and the art will continue to suffer because we (and I'm speaking of Americans here) want to believe that you can sugar-coat everything and the good guys always win. Sure, in many instances it's perfectly appropriate for the good guy to succeed (where would Die Hard be if John McClane didn't live to see another day*?), but sometimes it's just tacked on and silly.

Also, I don't believe that people won't see tragedies. There are beloved and well-known movies that are tragic, they just happen to be a rarity. (One example is Scarface.)

*Well, we'd have a hell of a lot less sequels, but the original movie would suck.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | September 4, 2010 7:09 PM

My stout run yesterday was for Goose Island Oatmeal Stout. Both the FIL and I prefer it to Arrogant Bastard, which I was using a point for comparison. Also needed brat buns, which are better in Wisconsin than locally.

I'm sure it's because the beer is so good. Right? Right?

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 4, 2010 7:12 PM

Thanks for that, Nerd. I'm feeling much better about my beer purchases now!

And, really, since it was purchased with the intent of sharing it with loved ones, I think $15 is a fair price to pay. Plus, they're both damned good beers.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | September 4, 2010 7:18 PM

we have a brand here called Stumptown Tart,

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | September 4, 2010 7:21 PM

Back when Shakespeare was writing his tragedies, were people any better off? Were they happier on the whole? Was life any easier?

I don't think that it's so much that life was easier then, as that, now, life fails to meet our (media-influenced) expectations. Also, thanks to the media, we're able to access the despair-worthy situations of more people, farther away. I doubt that the citizens of Shakespeare's London lost a moment's sleep over the plight of the Haitians, or the Pakistanis, or the Somalians; if they were even aware of it, it would not come with the live-camera interviews, and the live-camera, up-to-the-minute images of wreckage, starving children, abused women. It was all far away, hearsay, not right in your living room.

Aaaaand, time to go; the Game awaits, and there is a lot of scenario that has not yet had large, inadvertent divots blown out of it.

Posted by: Cannabinaceae | September 4, 2010 7:27 PM

I'm presently working my way through some Wolaver's IPA. For Family Pizza Night last night, as is my wont, I got one sixpack of a Tried and True, and one of Some Untried Brand¹. As is often the case, the untried wasn't all that great, so I'm putting the buzz on with the good stuff prior to diving into the Merely Adequate.